Stop copying pros! Think for a second, and copy this better RUclipsr! Lol, but I still agree, although you should mention both walls are good and it’s situational based on the team habits and buys/saves
The way I see Viper walls and smokes in general are like this. The area you’re blocking off is the area of space you’re trying to control. The first viper wall you showed gives us control of about half the site. The second wall is aiming to get control of the ENTIRE site. To me, personally, it might be a little ambitious. A good team won’t let you just take the entire site without a fight. Plus, you should still be able to spam the long spike plant from Heaven. Just my perspective though! No hate at all :D. Love the content.
my whole stack will die taking all that space (I am the one playing viper), so for me I do a wall that just lets us plant with sage wall, then I play for snake bite.
Any decent enemy team comp will have the ability to take that space back with their own utility. Holding long is the most predictable thing, that you'd need a lot of utility or an ult to hold it. It becomes more about aim duels rather than playing smarter when they know you're all long playing for time.
As smokes main, here some things to keep in mind: where you smoke is how much space you get to take(safely). the amount of space you take will dictate where your battle will take place and what you have to play around. If you’re on a save, then the first wall wouldn’t be bad since you’re gonna want to be in close range battles, however I would always go for that deeper wall on a full buy. smoke placement does vary a bit depending on the execute so you may have to smoke certain places for certain situations. always remember your smokes deny information for both sides(bad smokes make clearing angles hell).
Also, some pro teams like Optic also default that first wall on attack pretty much every round. It’s used more as an entry wall since they play double controller(+astra)
I find it depends on the situation. I use the first wall if I'm starting round as it's easy to walk up and get onto the sight to take control first before planing and moving off. The second wall you show I use at times we plan to do a late entery or on rotate to cut off the enemy from rotating in.
As a Viper main, it completely depends on the abilities of your team and the situation. The first or second wall can be useful in different situations.
depends on the playstyle. because if you just go with a sage wall for the fast plant and cover bomb you can play for line ups and you dont need the full site. the key is, switch it up
I like and use the first wall often, I find a majority of the time defenders peek from hall, so having the first wall gives an advantage to take out the initial defender. I like the 2nd wall on a site rotation both have merits :D
I definitely prefer the "pro" wall at the start. Sets up for a nice execute and allows a fast push to back hall to pressure from multiple angles. When you only wall off rotates, you allow someone holding an off angle from deep near that orb at mid to pick off your entry for free, then fall back through the orb.
I agree, problem is if I do that my team will dry peak and die every single time. The reason I do that cut the site in half wall is because I’m saving my own teammates from peaking like morons
lmao that's why I do it too🤣. My teammates are brain dead so the enemy team will just peak from back site everytime and nobody is preventing them from peaking and one tapping my whole team. With that wall you have less angles to worry about but to each their own
thats why i keep an arsenal of walls, the walls i setup might not work for our team so i change things up and pray my team isnt fucking retarded because im probably not
True i got flamed by my whole team because they cant fight the people peeking long when they should have and decides to blame me for not smoking halls but then even when i smoked halls and gave them all my util the 3 duelists on my team still doesnt know to enter make space on site🤣🤦
That 1st set up is super ideal in lower ranks. Nobody is going to have that line up for link. Viper walls that cut site in half are good because they virtually guarantee the access and security of the initial space you're taking control over- worry about the other half later.
the second wall have a few major flaws. 1. risky and time consuming bcs your team have to check more corners to win the site 2. your team have to fully engage and push onto the spawn either mid to control the site itself which is hard 3. your duelist can die instantly while doing entry bcs that wall are easy to get push and enemy can get hide also fast peek somewhere. 4. its hard to solo dive or fake push with it bcs in this case it has so much corners to watch while solo and no cover to hide so the enemy can see easily if u were actually there or just faking it. 5. average player couldnt use it properly
the second wall would bring more harm than good tbh, the main reason we need smokers is to minimize the ground we have to cover. It would probably work if the entire team commited to push in order to secure each spot, but the first wall works the fastest and safest. The first wall are easier to control.
Smokes can also make certain agents abilities shine. A good close range smoke allows for a Fade and Gekko to go to town with their utility, while a Site cutoff smoke gives Sova, Breach, and Skye a lot of power with their abilities specifically. Close range smokes also benefit duelists like Neon and Reyna, while Jett, Raze, and Phoenix prefer Site cutoff smokes. Lastly, close range smokes are decent at rush plant strategies, especially when you have line-ups/mollies to cover defuse with ease. Always keep your team comp in mind when deploying smokes, as well as the strength of your weapons and tools. Where do you plan to hold? What is your strategy for post plant?
Smokes are pretty simple; you cut off angles and positions that enemies can use while giving your team access to valuable space On attack you can use smokes to cut off typical sightlines and make a path to plant the spike, while on defence you force enemies to blindly push through your smoke so they can be shot from any angle
The problem with this set up with viper is you need to go a bit closer to the site just to defend the spike. Compared to the diagonal line up. But let's try.
Controlling space is good and all and it definitely will make it harder to retake but everyone that makes these videos never talks about the fact that the more space you can take is also more space you have to fight for. The second smoke leaves you with more angles that need to be cleared to get the bomb down. With a good team and coordination you can definitely get the second smoke to work. I just think more often you are going to take heavy casualties.
i feel like the thing about pearl that a lot of people don’t realize is that it’s almost viably play solo smokes, tons of walls or smokes can cover only so much and there will always be major downsides. Pearl is def designated to be a double controller kind of map because of how you can combo things like the first viper wall or the second one with some astra or omen smokes. you could even argue that a harbor would be a lot better than a viper (besides the high skill ceiling) because of the fact that you can bend his wall to cover more crucial angles on b. then again everyone just instalocks duelist and other roles in ranked so does this even really matter lol
This wall could be good with the right team coordination and support from other characters. With that said, the problem with this wall is that you allow your enemies to play on site with too much space to work with. Almost no common angles are covered and therefor youre forced to be cautios about them, allowing your enemies to play powerful off angles as you are entering the site. Another argument against this wall is that the post plant must be played on site to get value out of the viper wall after the spike is down which is a poor way to play afterplant on this site for the most part.
It's much easier to control that important triangle of area than the entire site. Even if you have at least 3 people holding every spot the enemies can come from its still hard to hold once they start using their own util. Most of the time you'd just have to retreat to main where it's generally easier to hold for post plant. But even that's pretty hard because smokes or sage walls can block you off
In Pearl B, 1st wall is anti sniper and aggressive attackers, while 2nd wall is anti retake and aggressive defenders. That cubby on mid can be disregarded, instead put the smoke on mid site or default for outplay cover.
I think that all depends on where you want to plant the bomb. Additionally common plant locations will always be the target of spams and line ups. I'd say go for the diagonal to mitigate the defenses, sniping potential and plant where you're likely to have the least spam fire coming your way with angles you can cover.
I feel like trying to grab the whole site is a bit ambitious. As a smokes main who’s often playing with an uncoordinated team of randoms, rarely does just taking half the site and blocking all defender-sided exit points is good enough. Walling half-site and then using a smoke orb to create a one-way on the edge of B heaven walkway is usually a pretty hard-to-retake setup from my experience. Of course, if you’re with a coordinated team, taking full site is a good idea - but this usually isn’t as doable in unrated imho.
The thing with viper smokes in particular probably shouldn't smoke like that because she can turn off her smokes at any time. Smoking off more angles means you can walk up long without dying, then gain access to part of site and hall, put your wall down and then get access to the second part of site. Also, planting in default spots when you have the whole site is stupid so if you do do that, getting spammed is kinda on you.
Honestly still depends on your team (for me tho), i do the 2nd wall a lot of times but we’re struggling for some reason (im in low elo [gold-plat]) but with 1st wall, i can just molly the corner of the halls & b link. The only thing we would worry is the other side of the halls and tower
Sometimes playing for that much map control can back fire cause enemies can just hide past your smokes In smaller angles your team needs to clear. Too much map control that the team cannot hold will result in an easier retake for the enemies
I started doing that wall lineup and my (higher ranked) teammates complimented the placement and kept asking me if I got it from tiktok. Nope, got it from my brain 😊 cuz it just logically and tactically makes sense. Now seeing this, I'm glad to know it's a Viper approved lineup. Which means I actually AM understanding smokes better and where they will be most useful, without explicitly being told. Still iron but I'm happy 😊
With second wall you need to have control of site, wich is pretty hard for regular players, If you use "pro viper wall" you just need control of where you plant and maybe the rest will just cover while planting so, I recomend pro viper wall anyways
In pro play, back halls is taken every time so the first wall will never be used. Without back hall control post plant becomes very difficult. However, in ranked it rly is about just getting enough of the site to plant and trying to deny a retake by whatever means necessary. Just my personal observations.
I can tell you that you are right for maybe ranked, but for pros that first wall is killer. watch the most recent VCT match of Loud vs EG and Loud 13-0d EG. the first time it has ever happened in a tournment. you are right with the attacking full site, but the first wall cuts off almost every entry and allows for plays mid. it just depends on whose playing and what other agents. great video!
This is counter intuitive. The point of a smoke (I consider walls smokes by the way) is to cut off areas so you can safely get into certain areas to do whatever it is you’re trying to do. Just because you smoke off only half of site doesn’t mean you’re incapable of fighting for all of it (especially if you use the viper wall shown) after the smoke(s) dissipate. Spamming will happen regardless that’s why it’s important to switch up how you plant and also remember that you have 4 other teammates with abilities. If you wish to cut off all those dangerous spots while not giving up more of site just use harbor. Don’t know why people shit on him so much when he has so much potential. Not enough players actually use em
As a viper main, i will give them alot of space with my smokes, but they will lose whole site. When my team asks me to do a normal wall, enemys have the whole site to play around and we lose. Common sense, take small pieces at the time, don't bite a whole pie and choke.
The problem is the second one is way more risky trying to take site in the first place, what will happen is you get smoked off and you cant enter site because you get exposed to 7 different angles
Both walls have problems. The recommended wall is only useful if your team can even manage to clear site and get the bomb down, and even then its a hit or miss, and the first wall leaves half of the site untaken. Unless you have teammates confident of pushing through tunnel to try and clear that half, and teammates confident in clearing the sites with the recommended wall, both are going to be rocky to play with.
yup, just had an argument with a viper who blamed me for loosing the game because i was asking hik to wall likr this and he was doing these horrible walls that we got spammed through. He was a Viper main, and immo3 lobbies😅
My problem with the 2nd smoke as Viper is taking the site against a good OPer can easily shut you down before you even reach pillar. Not being able to smoke Halls is just a death sentence even if the enemy doesn't have an OPer especially below Diamond Rank.
I disagree, because I've tried it. Its only a good wall if you trust your team to push properly and effectively. The 1st one is better because it covers many angles. You just need to throw your orb on heaven and you're covering everything. I never plant behind a box.
my friend was in a match yesterday and did the same wall you recommend as well. it did not go well and from experience the first wall or an inbetween is better.
The first wall is better for taking site 80% of the time. You can’t get peaked from back hall, and it damages people coming out of link. Also any setup that involves both wall and orb isn’t viable with todays viper. Maybe pre-nerf when you could have both at the same time. The second wall might be better if you already have site control, back hall control and you know they can are rotating from spawn.
Yeah but that second wall is kinda pointless if there's already people on site. It's always better to just get the spike down and take advantage of the long angle you have and utility you can use to counter any defuse
The reason why the second wall is better is because your team should be using util to take the site. For example, fade eye and dogs clears the entire site and backsite. Planting without full control of site makes the enemy's job of retaking the team infinitely easier since they already have control of half of the site. Why not just take the full site and instead force the enemy to use their util to clear the site for retake and force them into uncomfortable fights, especially if you have your smokes lurk through alley to cause a disruption on the retake.
The problem here is that none of them is better than the other. The first one: Gives lesser pick-spots for the enemies, so the entry is safer. Also, doing this wall is for taking control of mid too, not full push to site. The second one: Makes the enemies either be aggressive or to back-up and play retake. Also, doing this is for full push with as much you (Viper) or a Cypher closing the map to make the enemies think fast and err. Think of Viper walls as closing pressure points, and increasing others.
as viper user who's playing with random ppl alot, i disagree with both the smoke. first is, your smoke need to cover the box, also the smoke need to not cover the hall entrance like that since you want them to actually peek there and force them to do solo play while getting punished by the toxin wall. and i prefer to use the orb to cover underpass to swap toxin wall and orb so my team can clear out site while force the enemy to push on my orb to help their team that defending on the site. orb wall together is not long enough for random ppl to think fast
I do wall basically along the line of B on the right side so that way it still allows them to push and I can do crowd control. I throw my orb on the left side of that like U shaped hall. Idk names and coms. Just what I do lol
First wall is to help your team get to the site withount that much risk, covering most safe angles defending team can hold. Second wall is for when your team can take the site by themselves (they have ults or a strong fragger) and help them hold it. There is no wrong here, both are viable, just situational. At the end, smoking the same way everytime can get predictable and cost you some rounds, so a controller needs versatility in their setups.
with brim smokes u can smoke off the same points but my problem is my team peeking 1 at a time instead of waiting for me to stim them and then push and even when I stim them they expect me to go first with spike knowing I've played lineups the past 3 rounds
Benefit: After clearing and planting the spike, you have a choice to take more angles within the site Denies deeper sight angles from the enemy defense Consequences: Not nullifying U hall Op angle Enemies can slow down your pace by just a alittle and set up a 3 stack on site, fight them my duelists Viper turning on both at once and run out of gas
U have to take control of way more space making it a harder fight where as you can just get a plant down then orb and molly it Because you are planting in the side of site anyway
imo 1st wall is better if you are playing double controllers with astra + viper with viper doing default wall, astra smoke heaven and alley, then go from there 2nd one if for solo smokes where you need to get to site and you dont have a lineup for a heaven smoke. But its gonna be hard to take B long if you use that smoke so I suggest doing an alley B split if youre planning to use that wall
you dont actually need to do a super complicated lineup for the smoke orb. You can see in the map a preview of where the orb will fall and what it’ll cover so dont sweat it too much
The issue with that second wall is not only are you trusting that your team is good enough to actually take ALL of site your trusting that your team is good enough to HOLD all of site and I do not trust that
What if when you throw that second wall that covers top and bottom, they just push up and take control of back site/halls bind default plant? They would easily be able to just walk past the wall since you and your team are still in spawn when you throw your wall. Meanwhile the 1st wall, the enemy team just isn’t going to push that far ahead and push pas the wall since it’s already further up ahead and if they do they have to commit util. I think 1st wall is better no matter how you slice it
It really depends on if you’re solo controller or not if you have another smoker the first wall is definitely better if you don’t then the second one is probably better but very predicatable about what your plan is
I disagree, the 2nd wall is better in every situation. The first wall gives unnecessary space and allows for defenders to do the easiest retake known to man. Even if you have a second controller, they should be smoking off angles that your wall can't cover like link. The first wall just gives too much space, and the defenders will automatically play retake
@@jjr7238 the idea is that you fight for the space with the wall then drop it and fight for the other space. It's harder o run up if you dont have that wall
I used the first one but I will try my best to cover heaven as well and cover the place where ppl use op or marshall while I will flanking from mid. I don't even know it is pro's setup, I was just put it like that to cover ppl holding angles and stuff
But if you walk and smokes like that fighting for sites becomes more difficult cause you’re now exposed to more angles as well as enemies having more covers, to work with as opposed to the other wall
In higher ranks, don't expect to be safe just by making a smoke or a wall. Those are instruments, just like flashes or a boombot. Notice that every 1 could play around it and take advantage - timing from it, no matter how good the smoke is, you must never feel safe
Ngl i play as the smokes quite a lot because I especially hate it when the smoke isnt in the area where i want it to be because sometimes my teammates are smoking area and it does rlly benefit the team especially forvipers for some reason when they smoke they give us such a small area and goves the opposing team much more space so i pkay smoke to avoid that or if there is another smoker in my team i just smoke the area that hasnt been smoked yet
Im a entry player and depending on your comp imo this is one of the worst walls since yout still have to watch out for the whole site. And when your team doesnt want to follow up ur just dead whilst with the other wall u can cross and fight elbow
You can do it either way since obviously you have teammates who will secure the site with you and obviously, again, they have utilities to help secure the plant and also the site.
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what about brim/harbor
Stop copying pros! Think for a second, and copy this better RUclipsr!
Lol, but I still agree, although you should mention both walls are good and it’s situational based on the team habits and buys/saves
No such thing as brimstone or harbor? The two best smoke players in the game?
The way I see Viper walls and smokes in general are like this.
The area you’re blocking off is the area of space you’re trying to control. The first viper wall you showed gives us control of about half the site. The second wall is aiming to get control of the ENTIRE site. To me, personally, it might be a little ambitious. A good team won’t let you just take the entire site without a fight. Plus, you should still be able to spam the long spike plant from Heaven. Just my perspective though! No hate at all :D. Love the content.
my whole stack will die taking all that space (I am the one playing viper), so for me I do a wall that just lets us plant with sage wall, then I play for snake bite.
Yeah, I think the second wall is worst than the first wall
Yea i would say taking like 3/4 of the site would be better because you still have alot of space taken and still have easy control over the space
Any decent enemy team comp will have the ability to take that space back with their own utility. Holding long is the most predictable thing, that you'd need a lot of utility or an ult to hold it. It becomes more about aim duels rather than playing smarter when they know you're all long playing for time.
@@CommanderFoxy Then you'd still have to worry about them being in that 1/4 area as opposed to holding the 3 entry points.
As smokes main, here some things to keep in mind: where you smoke is how much space you get to take(safely). the amount of space you take will dictate where your battle will take place and what you have to play around.
If you’re on a save, then the first wall wouldn’t be bad since you’re gonna want to be in close range battles, however I would always go for that deeper wall on a full buy. smoke placement does vary a bit depending on the execute so you may have to smoke certain places for certain situations.
always remember your smokes deny information for both sides(bad smokes make clearing angles hell).
Also, some pro teams like Optic also default that first wall on attack pretty much every round. It’s used more as an entry wall since they play double controller(+astra)
I find it depends on the situation. I use the first wall if I'm starting round as it's easy to walk up and get onto the sight to take control first before planing and moving off. The second wall you show I use at times we plan to do a late entery or on rotate to cut off the enemy from rotating in.
As a Viper main, it completely depends on the abilities of your team and the situation. The first or second wall can be useful in different situations.
depends on the playstyle. because if you just go with a sage wall for the fast plant and cover bomb you can play for line ups and you dont need the full site. the key is, switch it up
I like and use the first wall often, I find a majority of the time defenders peek from hall, so having the first wall gives an advantage to take out the initial defender.
I like the 2nd wall on a site rotation
both have merits :D
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@@joshuakhawlhring543 indeed
hooj has lineups or almost everything
Yeah but doesn't Hooj advise AGAINST this wall? I'm confused
@@jehreetv He does advise against controlling the entire site.
Another title would be "Stop copying pros setups, copy mine instead!".
I definitely prefer the "pro" wall at the start. Sets up for a nice execute and allows a fast push to back hall to pressure from multiple angles. When you only wall off rotates, you allow someone holding an off angle from deep near that orb at mid to pick off your entry for free, then fall back through the orb.
I agree, problem is if I do that my team will dry peak and die every single time. The reason I do that cut the site in half wall is because I’m saving my own teammates from peaking like morons
lmao that's why I do it too🤣. My teammates are brain dead so the enemy team will just peak from back site everytime and nobody is preventing them from peaking and one tapping my whole team. With that wall you have less angles to worry about but to each their own
yeah thats what happens in low ranks. as you rank up, it isn't a problem and doing the cut in half will fuck your team instead
thats why i keep an arsenal of walls, the walls i setup might not work for our team so i change things up and pray my team isnt fucking retarded because im probably not
True i got flamed by my whole team because they cant fight the people peeking long when they should have and decides to blame me for not smoking halls but then even when i smoked halls and gave them all my util the 3 duelists on my team still doesnt know to enter make space on site🤣🤦
That 1st set up is super ideal in lower ranks. Nobody is going to have that line up for link.
Viper walls that cut site in half are good because they virtually guarantee the access and security of the initial space you're taking control over- worry about the other half later.
the second wall have a few major flaws.
1. risky and time consuming bcs your team have to check more corners to win the site
2. your team have to fully engage and push onto the spawn either mid to control the site itself which is hard
3. your duelist can die instantly while doing entry bcs that wall are easy to get push and enemy can get hide also fast peek somewhere.
4. its hard to solo dive or fake push with it bcs in this case it has so much corners to watch while solo and no cover to hide so the enemy can see easily if u were actually there or just faking it.
5. average player couldnt use it properly
the second wall would bring more harm than good tbh, the main reason we need smokers is to minimize the ground we have to cover. It would probably work if the entire team commited to push in order to secure each spot, but the first wall works the fastest and safest. The first wall are easier to control.
Smokes can also make certain agents abilities shine.
A good close range smoke allows for a Fade and Gekko to go to town with their utility, while a Site cutoff smoke gives Sova, Breach, and Skye a lot of power with their abilities specifically. Close range smokes also benefit duelists like Neon and Reyna, while Jett, Raze, and Phoenix prefer Site cutoff smokes. Lastly, close range smokes are decent at rush plant strategies, especially when you have line-ups/mollies to cover defuse with ease.
Always keep your team comp in mind when deploying smokes, as well as the strength of your weapons and tools. Where do you plan to hold? What is your strategy for post plant?
Smokes are pretty simple; you cut off angles and positions that enemies can use while giving your team access to valuable space
On attack you can use smokes to cut off typical sightlines and make a path to plant the spike, while on defence you force enemies to blindly push through your smoke so they can be shot from any angle
The problem with this set up with viper is you need to go a bit closer to the site just to defend the spike. Compared to the diagonal line up. But let's try.
i wish all players had this thought process instead of just dumping utility aimlessly and then tilting when you lose rounds :/
Controlling space is good and all and it definitely will make it harder to retake but everyone that makes these videos never talks about the fact that the more space you can take is also more space you have to fight for. The second smoke leaves you with more angles that need to be cleared to get the bomb down. With a good team and coordination you can definitely get the second smoke to work. I just think more often you are going to take heavy casualties.
i feel like the thing about pearl that a lot of people don’t realize is that it’s almost viably play solo smokes, tons of walls or smokes can cover only so much and there will always be major downsides. Pearl is def designated to be a double controller kind of map because of how you can combo things like the first viper wall or the second one with some astra or omen smokes. you could even argue that a harbor would be a lot better than a viper (besides the high skill ceiling) because of the fact that you can bend his wall to cover more crucial angles on b.
then again everyone just instalocks duelist and other roles in ranked so does this even really matter lol
This wall could be good with the right team coordination and support from other characters. With that said, the problem with this wall is that you allow your enemies to play on site with too much space to work with. Almost no common angles are covered and therefor youre forced to be cautios about them, allowing your enemies to play powerful off angles as you are entering the site. Another argument against this wall is that the post plant must be played on site to get value out of the viper wall after the spike is down which is a poor way to play afterplant on this site for the most part.
It's much easier to control that important triangle of area than the entire site. Even if you have at least 3 people holding every spot the enemies can come from its still hard to hold once they start using their own util. Most of the time you'd just have to retreat to main where it's generally easier to hold for post plant. But even that's pretty hard because smokes or sage walls can block you off
In Pearl B, 1st wall is anti sniper and aggressive attackers, while 2nd wall is anti retake and aggressive defenders. That cubby on mid can be disregarded, instead put the smoke on mid site or default for outplay cover.
I think that all depends on where you want to plant the bomb.
Additionally common plant locations will always be the target of spams and line ups. I'd say go for the diagonal to mitigate the defenses, sniping potential and plant where you're likely to have the least spam fire coming your way with angles you can cover.
I feel like trying to grab the whole site is a bit ambitious. As a smokes main who’s often playing with an uncoordinated team of randoms, rarely does just taking half the site and blocking all defender-sided exit points is good enough. Walling half-site and then using a smoke orb to create a one-way on the edge of B heaven walkway is usually a pretty hard-to-retake setup from my experience. Of course, if you’re with a coordinated team, taking full site is a good idea - but this usually isn’t as doable in unrated imho.
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The thing with viper smokes in particular probably shouldn't smoke like that because she can turn off her smokes at any time.
Smoking off more angles means you can walk up long without dying, then gain access to part of site and hall, put your wall down and then get access to the second part of site.
Also, planting in default spots when you have the whole site is stupid so if you do do that, getting spammed is kinda on you.
imo this makes sense if viper is the solo smokes but usually on pearl you would have harbor and viper and harbor can do the second wall very easily
Honestly still depends on your team (for me tho), i do the 2nd wall a lot of times but we’re struggling for some reason (im in low elo [gold-plat]) but with 1st wall, i can just molly the corner of the halls & b link. The only thing we would worry is the other side of the halls and tower
That is usually done by harbor.
Viper uses her wall to section off main, harbor pops his, and viper drops it to pinch all on site
Sometimes playing for that much map control can back fire cause enemies can just hide past your smokes In smaller angles your team needs to clear. Too much map control that the team cannot hold will result in an easier retake for the enemies
I started doing that wall lineup and my (higher ranked) teammates complimented the placement and kept asking me if I got it from tiktok. Nope, got it from my brain 😊 cuz it just logically and tactically makes sense.
Now seeing this, I'm glad to know it's a Viper approved lineup. Which means I actually AM understanding smokes better and where they will be most useful, without explicitly being told. Still iron but I'm happy 😊
This helped a lot. I was throwing that, cross bomb site, smoke all the time. Big eye opener.
In my low elo, everybody on defense just plays on site :p But good tips when you play with/against people that know what they’re doing
With second wall you need to have control of site, wich is pretty hard for regular players, If you use "pro viper wall" you just need control of where you plant and maybe the rest will just cover while planting so, I recomend pro viper wall anyways
Yeah I don’t think about my smoke placement when I play unrated, I usually do when in comp, but yeah I agree I agree 😎
thats why id pick harbor would use the second kind of wall along with cascade and use them as first kind of wall
In pro play, back halls is taken every time so the first wall will never be used. Without back hall control post plant becomes very difficult. However, in ranked it rly is about just getting enough of the site to plant and trying to deny a retake by whatever means necessary. Just my personal observations.
This video taught me about viper more then any video I've seen before 💀
you need to do more of this! nice work
I can tell you that you are right for maybe ranked, but for pros that first wall is killer. watch the most recent VCT match of Loud vs EG and Loud 13-0d EG. the first time it has ever happened in a tournment. you are right with the attacking full site, but the first wall cuts off almost every entry and allows for plays mid. it just depends on whose playing and what other agents. great video!
This is counter intuitive. The point of a smoke (I consider walls smokes by the way) is to cut off areas so you can safely get into certain areas to do whatever it is you’re trying to do. Just because you smoke off only half of site doesn’t mean you’re incapable of fighting for all of it (especially if you use the viper wall shown) after the smoke(s) dissipate. Spamming will happen regardless that’s why it’s important to switch up how you plant and also remember that you have 4 other teammates with abilities. If you wish to cut off all those dangerous spots while not giving up more of site just use harbor. Don’t know why people shit on him so much when he has so much potential. Not enough players actually use em
As a viper main, i will give them alot of space with my smokes, but they will lose whole site. When my team asks me to do a normal wall, enemys have the whole site to play around and we lose. Common sense, take small pieces at the time, don't bite a whole pie and choke.
Thank you!!! Now I can use Viper effectively
I wonder who else Banana man talks to
The problem is the second one is way more risky trying to take site in the first place, what will happen is you get smoked off and you cant enter site because you get exposed to 7 different angles
Both walls have problems. The recommended wall is only useful if your team can even manage to clear site and get the bomb down, and even then its a hit or miss, and the first wall leaves half of the site untaken. Unless you have teammates confident of pushing through tunnel to try and clear that half, and teammates confident in clearing the sites with the recommended wall, both are going to be rocky to play with.
That's why Viper is still a top tier controller because her smoke is uniquely good
yup, just had an argument with a viper who blamed me for loosing the game because i was asking hik to wall likr this and he was doing these horrible walls that we got spammed through. He was a Viper main, and immo3 lobbies😅
My problem with the 2nd smoke as Viper is taking the site against a good OPer can easily shut you down before you even reach pillar. Not being able to smoke Halls is just a death sentence even if the enemy doesn't have an OPer especially below Diamond Rank.
I disagree, because I've tried it. Its only a good wall if you trust your team to push properly and effectively. The 1st one is better because it covers many angles. You just need to throw your orb on heaven and you're covering everything. I never plant behind a box.
my friend was in a match yesterday and did the same wall you recommend as well. it did not go well and from experience the first wall or an inbetween is better.
The first wall is better for taking site 80% of the time. You can’t get peaked from back hall, and it damages people coming out of link. Also any setup that involves both wall and orb isn’t viable with todays viper. Maybe pre-nerf when you could have both at the same time.
The second wall might be better if you already have site control, back hall control and you know they can are rotating from spawn.
Yeah but that second wall is kinda pointless if there's already people on site. It's always better to just get the spike down and take advantage of the long angle you have and utility you can use to counter any defuse
The reason why the second wall is better is because your team should be using util to take the site. For example, fade eye and dogs clears the entire site and backsite. Planting without full control of site makes the enemy's job of retaking the team infinitely easier since they already have control of half of the site. Why not just take the full site and instead force the enemy to use their util to clear the site for retake and force them into uncomfortable fights, especially if you have your smokes lurk through alley to cause a disruption on the retake.
The problem here is that none of them is better than the other.
The first one: Gives lesser pick-spots for the enemies, so the entry is safer. Also, doing this wall is for taking control of mid too, not full push to site.
The second one: Makes the enemies either be aggressive or to back-up and play retake. Also, doing this is for full push with as much you (Viper) or a Cypher closing the map to make the enemies think fast and err.
Think of Viper walls as closing pressure points, and increasing others.
Did people forget if you use the orb too, you consume the fuel 2x as fast? You don't always gonna plant on the default plant spot anyways
as viper user who's playing with random ppl alot, i disagree with both the smoke. first is, your smoke need to cover the box, also the smoke need to not cover the hall entrance like that since you want them to actually peek there and force them to do solo play while getting punished by the toxin wall. and i prefer to use the orb to cover underpass to swap toxin wall and orb so my team can clear out site while force the enemy to push on my orb to help their team that defending on the site. orb wall together is not long enough for random ppl to think fast
I do wall basically along the line of B on the right side so that way it still allows them to push and I can do crowd control. I throw my orb on the left side of that like U shaped hall. Idk names and coms. Just what I do lol
where are you standing when you throw the lineup smoke.
Thank you OD26 very cool!
As a viper main I love a good wall
That is why u use the first smoke u did with viper and then harbor to wall up top and bellow
i always do that wall but don't know the the orb lineups. thanks for that.
damn i didnt even know that viper wall was an actual wall, i kinda just threw it up and it seemed good enough
I do the diagonal to push from mid. It blocks the view to double doors. With Gekkos Wingman plant the wallbang is no issue.
and yet my team will always wait till my wall runs out to push
that 2nd smoke is amazing wow, but if they all are out of the smokes an just kill us easily xd
This is really useful thx
but woohoojin told me to default the other wall. I AM SO CONFUSED WHICH ONE SHOULD I USE
Banana man for sure but it's really situational depending on your elo
The banana knows best
same, is there a full video for this?
@@elwynthr woohoojin viper pearl guide
@@reversaltweaks3441 I just do the banana wall unless they have pop flashes. I’m d3
First wall is to help your team get to the site withount that much risk, covering most safe angles defending team can hold.
Second wall is for when your team can take the site by themselves (they have ults or a strong fragger) and help them hold it.
There is no wrong here, both are viable, just situational. At the end, smoking the same way everytime can get predictable and cost you some rounds, so a controller needs versatility in their setups.
But in my lobbies there are 3 guys sittin backside and throwing whatever they can and my Jett in mid lurking
with brim smokes u can smoke off the same points but my problem is my team peeking 1 at a time instead of waiting for me to stim them and then push and even when I stim them they expect me to go first with spike knowing I've played lineups the past 3 rounds
Benefit:
After clearing and planting the spike, you have a choice to take more angles within the site
Denies deeper sight angles from the enemy defense
Consequences:
Not nullifying U hall Op angle
Enemies can slow down your pace by just a alittle and set up a 3 stack on site, fight them my duelists
Viper turning on both at once and run out of gas
U have to take control of way more space making it a harder fight where as you can just get a plant down then orb and molly it
Because you are planting in the side of site anyway
imo 1st wall is better if you are playing double controllers with astra + viper with viper doing default wall, astra smoke heaven and alley, then go from there
2nd one if for solo smokes where you need to get to site and you dont have a lineup for a heaven smoke. But its gonna be hard to take B long if you use that smoke so I suggest doing an alley B split if youre planning to use that wall
you dont actually need to do a super complicated lineup for the smoke orb. You can see in the map a preview of where the orb will fall and what it’ll cover so dont sweat it too much
only works in custom games
Yo but they can still spam the same spot with the first and second wall
The issue with that second wall is not only are you trusting that your team is good enough to actually take ALL of site your trusting that your team is good enough to HOLD all of site and I do not trust that
What if when you throw that second wall that covers top and bottom, they just push up and take control of back site/halls bind default plant? They would easily be able to just walk past the wall since you and your team are still in spawn when you throw your wall. Meanwhile the 1st wall, the enemy team just isn’t going to push that far ahead and push pas the wall since it’s already further up ahead and if they do they have to commit util. I think 1st wall is better no matter how you slice it
First wall is better for post, and even better with a sage. You can plant without getting spammed
Thanks for the good tip.
Is... is that a banana I hear? 🍌
That wall is bad for the same reason that walling deep a on breeze is bad; you end up trying to contest more space than you need to
On other sites, yes, but on Pearl B, you just need hall and b-long to spam the bomb on
It really depends on if you’re solo controller or not if you have another smoker the first wall is definitely better if you don’t then the second one is probably better but very predicatable about what your plan is
I disagree, the 2nd wall is better in every situation. The first wall gives unnecessary space and allows for defenders to do the easiest retake known to man. Even if you have a second controller, they should be smoking off angles that your wall can't cover like link. The first wall just gives too much space, and the defenders will automatically play retake
@@jjr7238 the idea is that you fight for the space with the wall then drop it and fight for the other space. It's harder o run up if you dont have that wall
And this is why harbor is better at round start set up: you only need one well placed wall to cover the site.
where are you throwing the orb from? i couldn't recognize the spot or see the map
I used the first one but I will try my best to cover heaven as well and cover the place where ppl use op or marshall while I will flanking from mid. I don't even know it is pro's setup, I was just put it like that to cover ppl holding angles and stuff
But if you walk and smokes like that fighting for sites becomes more difficult cause you’re now exposed to more angles as well as enemies having more covers, to work with as opposed to the other wall
In higher ranks, don't expect to be safe just by making a smoke or a wall. Those are instruments, just like flashes or a boombot. Notice that every 1 could play around it and take advantage - timing from it, no matter how good the smoke is, you must never feel safe
i main omen, i use my smokes so selfishly but if i drop 30 that's helping a lot more
Ngl i play as the smokes quite a lot because I especially hate it when the smoke isnt in the area where i want it to be because sometimes my teammates are smoking area and it does rlly benefit the team especially forvipers for some reason when they smoke they give us such a small area and goves the opposing team much more space so i pkay smoke to avoid that or if there is another smoker in my team i just smoke the area that hasnt been smoked yet
That's well and good but how do you get through that long stretch?
Im a entry player and depending on your comp imo this is one of the worst walls since yout still have to watch out for the whole site. And when your team doesnt want to follow up ur just dead whilst with the other wall u can cross and fight elbow
U also get a mid lurk with the first wall
"Stop copying pros setups"
A pro proceeds to show a setup we should copy
You can do it either way since obviously you have teammates who will secure the site with you and obviously, again, they have utilities to help secure the plant and also the site.
And then there's a guy on museum that just wipes out my trash team💀
I only play viper on pearl because I have a ton of lineups…. I don’t think about this too much. Just go for basic well known walls