Ta-Nehisi Coates on Israel: ‘I Felt Lied To.’
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 10 окт 2024
- In his new book of essays, “The Message (www.penguinran...) ,” Ta-Nehisi Coates writes about a trip he took to Israel and the West Bank in May 2023. “I felt lied to,” he told me. “I felt lied to by my craft. I felt lied to by major media organizations.”
Coates’s essay is a searing portrait of Palestinian life under Israeli rule. It has also been criticized for leaving much out: Hamas is never mentioned. Nor is Oct. 7. Nor are any of the peace processes. So I asked him on the show to discuss what he saw when he was there and what he chose to leave outside the frame.
Mentioned:
“The Case for Reparations (www.theatlanti...) ” by Ta-Nehisi Coates
Book Recommendations:
Justice for Some (www.sup.org/bo...) by Noura Erakat
Our American Israel (www.hup.harvar...) by Amy Kaplan
The Unspoken Alliance (www.penguinran...) by Sasha Polakow-Suransky
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (www.nytimes.co...) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.co... (www.nytimes.co...) .
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Efim Shapiro and Isaac Jones, with Aman Sahota. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
Soon, you’ll need a subscription to maintain access to this show's back catalog, and the back catalogs of other New York Times podcasts, on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Don’t miss out on exploring all of our shows, featuring everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts (nytimes.com/po...) .
What security purpose is there for Palestinians being denied the same amount of water that Israelis get?
It doesn't work like that . Water isn't a 1.5 mineral water bottle .
Why do leftists can't think I'm a border aspects.
It's about infrastructure and control of that infrastructure.
The Palestinians in the west bank have better resources than their neighbours in Jordan why compare them to their successful European level nation on the west ?
There is no security reason. But you are assuming that this is a fact which it is not.
@@leonidkrimsky954 fact doesn't matter
They want them all dead.
Ezra = Biden, Biden = Ezra
This war is going to cause Trump to win & lead to WW3.
Predicted 1500 years ago by Nastradamis.
Within 12 years China/Russia will overtake most of the USA. Split it in three, all because Biden was living in the 1950s.
The empire bankrupt is over.
The people criticising him by claiming he was only there for 10 days or he's not an expert on the subject don't seem to understand the point he's making. There is no justification for treating other human beings like caged animals period.
Even if they openly support Hamas ?
@@Gphilly819 Have a think about how you would view the world and the Israelis if you were a Palestinian being treated like an animal in the West Bank.
@@Gphilly8193 million Palestinians in the West Bank are being treated like this…
@@darrenr9136 well if I supported leaders who act like animals like come off, then it would make sense
@@Gphilly819no it makes no sense. You’ve clearly lost a huge chunk of your humanity if you think it does.
Thank you for the podcast and being both so vulnerable with your views, disagreement, and self reflection.
Glad to see Coates is still out there speaking truth to the world.
Massive respect ✊🏽
How do you know it’s the truth, may be it’s falsehoods or nonsense.
Such nuanced conversation. I admire these two men so very much.
From the perspective of someone who had a Judeo-Christian & Lib-Zionist upbringing, the most ironic thing about all of this to me: is how Christian it is-- this idea that we can put all our sins unto someone else-- that a whole entire people who were completely blameless for *OUR* sins can just be scapegoated, punished, sacrificed on place of WE European/Western society who perpetrated the crimes of the 1930s and 40s upon our neighbors and our selves. No, we can simply heal and forget without ever really reckoning with any of it, western Christian & Jew-- by putting it all unto someone else who's been powerless for centuries and crucifying THEM for it. Wicked. It's one thing I never liked about Christian theology, the idea of sacrificing someone who is blameless in order to "pay" for your own wicked deeds.. but here we all are doing it.
Great interview. Thanks.
This is courageous on the part of both men.
What an enlightening and refreshing conversation, there is no pretense that Israel is somehow morally superior to Palestinians. In US media this conversation is so very rare! We need to hear more of it! We need to hear that Israel is not the "only democracy in the Middle East" and reflects US values. Israel reflects our values..... of Jim Crow!
## Contrasting Perspectives on the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
**Ta-Nehisi Coates:**
* **Moral Outrage at the Occupation:** Coates expresses profound moral outrage at the realities of the Israeli occupation, emphasizing its systematic and dehumanizing nature. He finds the justifications for the occupation unacceptable and believes that the current situation cannot be reconciled with principles of justice and democracy. He criticizes the American media for failing to accurately portray the brutality of the occupation, leading to a distorted understanding among the public.
* **The Centrality of the Palestinian Narrative:** Coates underscores the importance of centering the Palestinian experience and perspective in any discussion of the conflict. He argues that Palestinian voices have been systematically marginalized and silenced, and that understanding their lived realities is essential for developing a more accurate and nuanced understanding of the situation.
* **Skepticism Towards Solutions:** While acknowledging the importance of political imagination, Coates expresses skepticism towards readily available solutions. He believes that the current political climate and the deeply entrenched interests of both sides make finding a workable and moral solution extremely difficult. He emphasizes the need to first fully understand the reality of the situation before attempting to envision a path forward.
* **The Corrupting Power of Violence:** Coates is deeply critical of violence, believing that it ultimately corrupts those who wield it, regardless of their stated aims or justifications. He finds both Israeli and Palestinian acts of violence morally reprehensible and argues that violence undermines the pursuit of justice and democracy.
**Ezra Klein:**
* **The Importance of Acknowledging Israeli Perspectives and Agency:** While agreeing with Coates on the immorality of the occupation, Klein emphasizes the need to consider the perspectives and experiences of Israeli Jews, particularly those who have historically supported peace and opposed the occupation. He argues that understanding how their efforts were undermined, in part due to Palestinian violence, is crucial for understanding the current impasse.
* **The Role of Palestinian Politics and Violence:** Klein argues that Coates's account doesn't fully grapple with the role of Palestinian political actors and the impact of Palestinian violence on the trajectory of the conflict. He suggests that understanding the motivations and actions of groups like Hamas, including their role in empowering the Israeli right, is essential for comprehending the current dynamics.
* **The Need for a Political Solution:** Klein believes that any meaningful change in the situation requires a political settlement. He acknowledges the complexity of the conflict and the difficulty of finding a solution but believes that focusing on the current realities and the next steps, rather than grand solutions, is more productive.
**Points of Agreement:**
* **The Immorality of the Occupation:** Both Coates and Klein agree that the Israeli occupation is morally wrong and unsustainable. They both recognize the systemic injustices faced by Palestinians living under occupation.
* **The Evolution of the Conflict:** Both acknowledge that the situation has changed significantly over time, with the horizon of hope for a peaceful resolution diminishing.
**Points of Disagreement:**
* **The Role of Palestinian Violence:** They disagree on the weight given to Palestinian violence in understanding the current situation. Coates argues that the injustices of the occupation cannot be justified or mitigated by Palestinian actions, while Klein believes that the impact of those actions on Israeli politics and society must be considered.
* **Engaging with the Israeli Right:** Coates made a conscious decision not to engage with those who support the occupation or hold more extreme right-wing views. Klein suggests that a more complete understanding of the conflict requires grappling with the motivations and beliefs of these groups, even if one finds them morally reprehensible.
This conversation reveals two nuanced perspectives on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Both acknowledge the dire reality of the occupation but disagree on how to best understand the historical trajectory that led to this point and what the most productive path forward might be.
Thank you, Ezra, for sharing this conversation with Ta-Nehisi Coates. He is such a gifted writer. I want to read “The Message “. I know it’s going to be a great read.
While grating to listen to, this interviewee is one of the most honest American political figures. He admits that he is unable to process any reality that does not sit well with his morality and worldview.
So, while blind like the rest of them to about half of reality, he at least admits his inability to process the complex moral contradictions of reality.
Great episode!
💜💜💜
"I do not accept that"...drink!
Very interesting conversation. Is it maybe time to start entertaining the idea that Israel is a fundamentally flawed concept?
@@oledavidostli what about the US?
@24:55 so your 'texture' is "we know how to tell who the _good_ untermench are-- the ones who know their place" >.> very nice... very nice... *spit*
Looking forward to listening - Klein has been one of the best voices out there this past year, actually exploring the complexities and nuances rather than just promoting one side or the other.
That said, Coates has only been platformed more and more after being called out for his dangerously biased misrepresentations. I would love to see Klein interview Tony Dokoupil.
dangerously biased misrepresentations ?? Sure, buddy!
@tals.8960 i would much prefer to hear from someone from the west bank or Gaza. Dokoupils perspective is already venerated by the media class, I don't think a morning news anchor will elucidate beyond it.
Ezra what are you doing. Unfortunately Coats gets A LOT of facts, history and truth completely wrong. And I am against the war. Suggesting Coleman Hughes for fact about this even though I am strongly against the war. But talking merely about history and facts you gotta get right. Praying for the 2 states and lasting peace. COATS ALSO SYMPATHIZES WITH HAMAS. Why on earth are you platforming him!!!!!!! He is antisemitic too
You are an insane person if you think he is antisemitic. You are literally the caricature of a raging person
Well done on a completely incoherent superficial and unhinged take with no evidence whatsoever
For two Americans to sit here and judge what life is like in the Middle East and comparing it to Jim Crow America is preposterous on its face. The both of you should open your eyes and read the writings of Dr. Einat Wilf who coined the term westplaining. That is what you are doing and it is so nauseating. Ezra Klein you are just ….. 🤮
For a man who criticises the US on many many subjects, Coates is doing the ‘most American’ thing possible - looking at the world through the American prism and coming to a swift conclusion that everything in the world can be explained as an analog to American history and politics.
You’re gonna totally ignore that the host is more or less agreeing with Coates about the conditions there? About how some people get access to water and others don’t? About how some people get their trash picked up and others don’t? About how some can move around freely and others don’t?
You’re just going to focus on the black author? Curious 🤔
Yes, apartheid - a famously American policy
Well by your logic apartheid south africa was ok since through American prism that would have been wrong this idiot thought he said something smart, waiting on these zoinist to build gas chambers and then convince everyone that their moral compass is wrong and this gas chambers are also a solution.
Ta Nehisi Coates is so unserious and non-nuanced in his coverage of this topic. Ezra should really question his choice to platform him, when there are thousands of people on both sides (and on neither side) who are much more sophisticated.
He had a 5-day tour by Breaking the Silence, went to a Palestinian literary festival, refused to actually engage with anyone from a different perspective or even dig into the reasons for the current situation, and now he’s an expert that we want to platform.
Funny you how avoid anything he saw…
From the timing of your comment you can only have listened to, at most, 8 minutes of this 1 hour 20 minute discussion. So what was it you were saying about being "unserious"? Perhaps a short attention span is considered "nuanced" these days. For my part, I will do Mr Coates the courtesy of listening to his words before I pontificate about who is and who is not "sophisticated".
Why do you feel the need to find reasons for systematic segregation? I'm sure many in south Africa and the antebellum south felt the same impulse
Do people deserve rights. The answer is either yes or no.
There is no crime or conflict on earth that can justify apartheid on an entire people as collective punishment.
Personal attacks. Avoiding discussing his views. No response to the things he saw.
His analysis sounds buried in the historic trauma of the African American experience. This is understandable but corrupts his analysis
the lens of being critical to slavery is a "corrupting" analysis to you. what a deep insight to your humanity
@@j53iliff2 Trying to understand a foreign conflict through poor analogies with your own country is a way to misunderstand the conflict.
@@punkishhiphopthe lens of looking at every problem through one lens is indeed corrupting. This is like prescribing the same medicine for all ailments.
@@brianross9753 colonizer mindset. American slavery is not just american but a significant aspect of broad eurocentric imperialism. Educate yourself and stop defending xios
IDK man. If someone from North Korea told me the surveillance systems my government was using reminded him of the kinds they used in North Korea, I’d at least consider what he was saying. 🤷🏽♂️
It’s called being honest and curious about the society you live in.
Coates is an ignoramus on the issue. His book is a worthless anti Israel screed. Feel bad for the trees.
Ta-Nehisi Coates: I spend my life being provocative, wrong, and contributing to the end of civil democracy.
I appreciate Coates' honesty in admitting that he's only telling one side of the story. But honesty about one's failures doesn't obviate those failures. It doesn't make his writing good journalism, and it makes me not want to read his work-or to listen to more than the first 10 minutes of this interview.
I really cannot get away from the fact that Coates refuses to grapple with the situations that lead up to where we are today. Fact if the matter is that Palestinian violence, via the second Intifada and later the election of Hamas in Gaza, lead to the destruction of the political death of the Israeli left and a battering of the Israeli center. The consequences we see are a result of those actions when the political will in Israel was committed to settling the conflict but the Palestinian will was to make war.
Now, I do agree with him. Regardless of the circumstances what's going on in the West Bank and Gaza is intolerable. But if we want any sort of change to happen the Palestinians have to do SOMETHING to prove the Israeli right wrong: that they can be good neighbors with Israel. That if the walks and security apparatus are taken down that there won't be another wave if suicide bombings and terrorist violence. Change needs to happen on both sides to course correct, and I just don't see any will or desire on the Palestinian side to try to do that. This nothing will change. I hope I'm wrong on this.
I really cannot get away from the fact that you refuse to grapple with the situations that lead up to where we are today. Fact of the matter is that Israel was conceived by violence, via the ethnic cleansing and dislocation of indigenous people from its conception. That’s what lead to Intifada and later the election of Hamas in Gaza. I come from a country of colonial history, and colonial powers all have the same playbook! I see the same exact things done and said about the Palestinians.
Palestinians should have peacefully accepted their violent displacements and the grabbing of their land. It would have been wonderful if they had not retaliated to the grabbing of their lands and the massacres used to displace them and now their subjection to a third rate restricted life and the constant encroachments out of the little they still possess.
@@sunset1952 well done.
30 seconds in and the hasbara beings, enough of this crap
Blah blah blah