Tod's 120lb Medieval Legolas - TESTED
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- Опубликовано: 29 июн 2020
- IT'S FINISHED! Joerg Sprave from "The Slingshot Channel" invented the amazing "Instant Legolas" magazine system for longbows; he challenged me to make a Medieval version.........
I made the device and in turn challenged Joe Gibbs from "Hillbilly Bows" to shoot it.......
This film shows the device, how it is used, our thoughts on it and what 5 of them can do in the hands of a powerful and experienced archer.
If you would like to support my work on this channel you can always buy my fantastic reproduction medieval weaponry available here todcutler.com
Stats:
Bow in Joerg's device - approx 30lbs
Tod's bow in Tod's device - approx 95lbs
Joe's Bow in Tod's device - approx 120lbs
Multishot sequence bow - approx 45lbs
Feather fletched bolt - 65g
Wood fletched bolt - 85g
Note: A lighter bow was used for the multi shot sequence as approximately 60 bolts needed to be shot within a few minutes after an already strenuous day, so we wanted to keep it easy.
The two films clips were taken from
"Arrows v's Armour - Mythbusting" • ARROWS vs ARMOUR - Med...
"Crossbow v's Longbow" • Medieval Warbow vs Win...
Tod - Maker of medieval weaponry and film and TV weapons
Tods Workshop - custom medieval weapons todsworkshop.com
Tod Cutler - Budget medieval weapons todcutler.com
NEW: Buy T-shirts - / @tods_workshop
Joerg Sprave - Inventor of the Instant Legolas and RUclips Royalty
"The Slingshot Channel" / joergsprave
@Slingshotchannel
Joe Gibbs - Longbow archer and bow maker
/ joe8gibbs
/ hillbillybows
@Joegibbs-archery
Hand forged heads by Will Sherman www.medievalarrows.co.uk
This video has so many fantastic features that I don't even know how to begin praising them individually. But here it goes, anyway...
Your SIL is just amazing. The craftsmanship alone is off the scale, but the enhancements you added (like the field stripping) are simply ingenious. The looks are stunning too - I mean, you even DECORATED it!
Bringing THE Joe Gibbs in is a major and unexpected excitement! He is no doubts one of the most competent guys on the planet, when it comes to shooting authentic war bows. We are all just lowly amateurs in comparison. To see him shoot the SIL more than twice as fast as a regular bow, that blows me away. What does NOT surprise me is the fact that to him, the 120 lbs bow felt like a 160 lbs with the SIL attached. The man spent many years building up the muscle set required to draw a bow out the conventional way, and now the motion is a bit different. It is as clear as day that he would have to get used to this first. I am pretty sure he would very soon not feel much difference anymore. Friction is NOT the issue, the SIL maybe adds 5 lbs of a draw weight due to friction - it does not matter if you draw it out empty or under load.
Your "Attack of the Joe Clones" part is a one-of-a-kind, first-ever, mind boggling masterpiece of editing. It is absolutely terrifying to watch. You get an idea how effective a whole battalion of SIL equipped archers would have been. Amazing. 800 archers, shooting 4000 arrows in 8 seconds? At least 2000 of those arrows would be in the air at the same time. Imagine how it would have been to be on the receiving end of that attack. Wow. Some say that in the battle of Crecy, the English had 14,000 archers... 70,000 arrows in five seconds. Archery warfare on steroids.
Because of these features (I am sure I forgot to mention some anyway), I officially declare this video to be the BEST INSTANT LEGOLAS VIDEO ever. I do not say such things lightly. Congratulations!
For me, the absolute best part was when you said the SIL may inspire people to think about medieval history. My little invention, having THAT effect on people? I have no words to describe how proud you just made me.
I could go on and on, but sorry, I now have to watch the video again. And again :)
Awesome response. Yeah, it's definitely not the friction that's the issue.
It feels like some minor adjustments might make it more comfortable. Could you mount the SIL slightly higher and extend the handle down so that it feels more comfortable, possibly compare his position normally and then try and emulate that as closely as possible by adjusting the SIL. Also is it the same length as he would normally be used to?
Also a crazy idea, maybe thinner metal bar or the flat part of a D Ring might be more suitable than a handle for someone used to pulling a bowstring.
Hail Joerg! 0/
I love the traction this device is gaining, and the collab with the other youtubers makes this a continuing story. Would be interesting to hear Joe Gibbs take on the draw assist that can be incorporated.
Hi Joerg,
Thanks and high praise indeed - thank you. I will talk in greater detail later about how I think it should have been used, but I do think you are basically correct in the assumption that Joe would get used to the difference in required technique. The other aspect of course is that this is (medieval) prototype 1 and of course changes and improvements would be made once an understanding of device 1 is gained.
There is just so much to think and talk about with this device and whether you love it, hate it or just don't get what the fuss is about, the same is true, that it encourages us to think about how medieval war and life was constructed.
My real fundamental problem with this device is also its most obvious strength, questions of exact design or position etc are redeemable. The problem that is harder too deal with is - how the hell do you supply it with ammunition? Lets say 1000 guys shooting 20 shots a minute....Out of ammo in 60-80 seconds and the distance between the shooting lines and the wagon are 400m each direction. That would need lets say 5 "arrow boys" per archer.....and so on. The nightmare is not making it, nor is it using it or even deploying it, or training the troops , it is simply a boring, practical, logistical nightmare.
@@tods_workshop I have a suggestion, as far as I know already the Romans made cast lead "bullets" to be fired from slings... wouldn't it be conceivable to think of a shape of lead bullet that can be fired from the instant legolas?
It would obviously lack the penetration capabilities and flight characteristics of an arrow, but if we are talking sheer brunt of firepower, that shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Like as far as I know from Jörgs videos, the biggest issue with firing balls from stringed weapons is the string jumping the ball. Lead casting could produce short cylinders, with a flat surface, so that the string can't slide past it. Those obviously wouldn't fly super straight, but again, numbers could make up on that. And that would solve the production and transport issues, both at once.
14:55 I honestly think the reason he get's tired so quickly is the speed, normally the time between each shot is more which means he get's to rest a bit between each shot, but when he shoots this fast he has virtually no time to rest, it's like comparing sprinting to distance running, one you burn all your energy to get a burst of speed but the other is sustained output.
That is a very good point
but.. with that speed, you probably dont need to shoot same amount of time as before. I mean, targets probably cease to exists much quicker.
Well said and not sure how I overlooked this in the film
Tod's Workshop using archers in the same pattern as shown in Waterloo or Zulu would help alleviate some of the fatigue. I’m sure Joe would adapt to the new technique fairly quickly though.
There is a very easy way to test this hypothesis, which I have though of, too. Tod should measure the draw in motion, like just clamp it in a vice and use a scale, put a camera on that scale and look at the force curve. Than do the same without the legolas attached. It should be possible to see the friction contribution if it is present and not negligible.
What a wonderful cooperation of a true German inventor, a true English bowmaker and a true English bowman.
Ikr
There was a frenchmen in this too. He was hiding behind the target.
Joe Gibbs also makes his all of his bows as well haha
Good old EU style ;p
literally a jojo´s plot
this is what's possible when people share ideas without ego attachments. bravo! so cool to see two passionate engineers/designers collaborate and improve on an already amazing idea
Thanks and it was a hoot
Absolute Mad Lad
Edit: That group of 5 Joe Gibbs loosing 25 arrows in 10 seconds is terrifying.
Would scare the enemy soldiers right into their graves.
@@Joe-pi9bx imagine 100 Gibbs firing 2500 arrows in 10 secs over charging infantry. Terrifying indeed
3 then 2 alternately shooting/loading like the British soldiers with single shot rifles... less arrows in the air at any one time but continuous.
Agree
@@SalinasIT It'd be 500. 5x5=25, 5x100 = 500. Still deeply concerning.
As Joe was mentioning at 13:00, from a body mechanics standpoint, having the rear handle be horizontal considerably lessens the effectiveness of the short head of the biceps brachii. I wouldn't be surprised if that had a big effect on Joe's draw. It also prevents the brachialis muscle from being recruited. That would have a smaller effect, but not negligible. If we say the current orientation is at 0 degrees and vertical would be 90 degrees, I think about 60 degrees would be the ideal orientation from a body mechanics perspective.
Were the bone runners lubricated? A little oil might help a lot.
As far as the handle on the front, perhaps putting it on a hinge so that it folds away most of the time. Defending a siege or something, that handle could be very useful if you're waiting for a chance to send an arrow at someone who's popping in and out of cover, but you probably wouldn't want it all the time.
Fantastic stuff, cheers!
I agree that the orientation of the handle is an important factor for pulling movements. The situation here is similar to overhand-grip pull-ups (harder) vs neutral grip pull-ups (easier). For me, the difference in weight I can add for the pull-ups is about 20 pounds.
@@kaptnsharky727 That's exactly what I was thinking about as I was looking at that
And bear fat grease on the bone runners. Since it needs to manufactured and operated with the limitations of the period.
Absolutely! Different position means different muscles used.
Don't you loose poundage on your shot when you hold a bow at full draw? And doesn't it lessen the bow's draw weight over time?
JoergSprave is pretty damn brilliant. He doesn't only build weapons, but he invents new designs as well. Good to see that this community is acknowledging each other, and Joerg is one of my favorites in this community. I'm a big fan of his.
It sure is creative and cool but quite a useless weapon in the context of war. Its very slow, exhausting, clunky and with many moving parts (prone to damage). To sum up. If it would be a good weapon it would have been used in the past.
@@flyingdutchman9053 it would be godly in a garrison weapon.
@@aurelian2668 Reason being?
Screw Legolas. This is something that Gimli would have carried.
Gimli would have made it throw axes somehow
Dwarven strength + this rate of fire... The elves would be driven extinct in a mere decade...
This rate of fire is not even close to masters archers elves rate of fire, but elves would just laugh their asses off when seeing someone using this thing so you might end up kiling one here and there by that.
@@youknowwho257 dude did you see the cut scene of battle of five armies elves vs dwarfes?
@@youknowwho257
Remember, "master archer". Not everyone in the bow division are masters. If i were an overseer in a weapon factory at that time, i would pay anything to put that into mass production and arm it for my troops.
Always a joy to see Joe shoot, whatever he is shooting.
Not to mention seeing five Joe's shoot :)
Definately
Especially Frenchmen.
Let me show you its features.
Not at you tho...
That Laugh overdub tho
Brilliant 😂
I love it
Hahaha Joergs epic laugh there 🤣 i lost it
Funny that Joerg's laugh is patented
Tod HAS humour!
12:12 This is clearly because of his hand placement. It’s 5cm back from where it would normally be, giving him less leverage over the last (and most difficult) bit of the draw. Friction has a small role to play but I think it’s primarily his different physiological positioning around the bow, as mentioned.
Yeah I agree it would put a hell of a load on your back shoulder muscles which aren't used extensively in normal archery and would tire out much quicker but it's just ergonomics I think that the design can be refined to make more ergonomical.
Wow ! The footage of several legolas being shot at the same time just allows your imagination to see what a formidable attack it would of been back in the day.
Yeah but Rambo bursts thru a rift in time and blows all those ancient archers away then uses a flame thrower to light his bare assed farts blowing the whole army to hell
It could happen well someone like the bo
I laugh a loud when Tod's say let me show you its features and then i suddenly hear jörg laugher... Haha
😂
The slingshot channel intro lol
Got me laughing too. I like that Todd put his name and a copyright logo too lol.
Jörg Sprage is Cult 👍
If you look at the top during Joerg's laugh, you see copyright info, as though his laughter is copyright or trademark
"I hope I haven't bored you with another Instant Legolas film"
Please, we come from Joerg's channel. We have these about as often as warm dinners.
And they taste just as good every time.
This design really needs the draw assist, the 'extra' pull cost could be offset with a forward stroke against a 30/40 pound light bow.
By increasing the distance you do the work over you reduce the forces required, and that significantly reduces the effort spent by the imperfect biological driving mechanism. Humans can lift tons of material over a few hours, but only their own body weight in a single instant (except body builders who can multiply both values by 5-10)
Haha tbh I never get bord of em tho haha it's so satisfying seeing how fast it shoots more more more 😂
We are eager to see its features.
I could watch these for the rest of my life, I wouldn't mind
When the five "Joes" were standing and shooting next to each other, it reminded me strongly of Age of Empires lol :D
Who's Joe
age of empires was fire back in the day
What an awesome weapon concept! Just from looking at the Medieval Legolas in action, I can already see why the bow is much more difficult to draw. In order to obtain the usual 30 inch draw of the bowstring, Joe has to pull the handle all the way back to 35 or so inches of draw length. That's a lot of extra scapular retraction Joe has to achieve just to get the same power out of the bow. A worthwhile design change might be to relocate the string-holding pawl to be as close as possible to the drawing hand without encroaching on the space for the fingers. Then a 120 lbf bow might feel like a 130 lbf bow instead of a 160 lbf bow.
Listening to 5 of those things is terrifying imagine your charging a position and you hear a hundred or so of those things open up.
NO THANK YOU
100? You'd need twice as many horses as there were of those bows as a minimum, and if you were in the front of the charge, good luck.
A hundred? Imagíne only 20 of those!
I agree that it is impressive and a terrifying thought to have that coming at you. But people are really overestimating the relevance of shooting speed in an average medieval combat situation.
1. Most of war wasn't about combat at all, it was about burning down villages and devastating the land of the enemy.
2. If actual battles happened, which was rare, then usually it was a siege situation. How important is it if you can shoot short bursts vs. more spaced shots if the siege is going to last for weeks or months? Not much. Especially since your arrow supply is limited anyway.
3. In der very rare occasion of a field battle where on side charges the other: Infantry (including archers) were mostly irrelevant. The battles were primarily fought by knights and everything else was just support.
People are mentioning Agincourt and Crecy. Those battles are famous, because they were huge exceptions from the rule. In many ways. Firstly because open battles were rare and secondly because archers made an actual difference. Even though, in both cases, they didn't win alone.
@@Nickname-hier-einfuegen ...nice to have a first hand account by someone who was there... oh wait...you mean you didn't actually fight in medieval battles? But you seemed so sure you know exactly how all medieval combat was fought...
@@Nickname-hier-einfuegen List of battles 301-1300
Jorg has finally put it into production.
and it's sold out ;)
Just a comment on your name.my name is nickolas wilcox
Thanks for all of the likes on my comment! This is the most likes on any of my comments.
@@nickwilcox8340 that is really cool!
Noice
Above all the craftsmanship is beautiful on this well done.Amazing work
Great vid, great content (quality) and volume of content were perfect. Double thumbs up
that intro got me, at first glance I thought you'd made five!
Upvote for that Joerg laughter
Yes 😂
Stuff like this needs to be put in the post-apocalypse tool-kit
Hang on a minute. I'm interested in history, but know little about weaponry. Yet I've discovered this channel and I'm hooked!
Informative, well presented and just good fun. Top work chaps.
Imagine an archer shooting the legolas, his squire loading a second legolas, switching bows when the magazine is empty to keep up the rate of fire. And multiply them by 50 on a parapet. It would be like facing 500 archers. I would not want to charge that wall at all.
longbows (and this is even worse) are too bulky to be useful on parapets. but take your idea and add a shield bearer/protective spearman and you have what made up an elite italian crossbowman 'squad', but with a fast firing bow instead of a crossbow.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 Ooh, I like the idea of a pavise bearer/loader plus archer two man team concept.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 not on parapets, but within fortification. That would multiply the effectiveness of the defense. For them the expense of munitions is less important as they don't have to transport their materiel.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 I can see how castles would have been designed differently to commodate things like this, to some degree
An issue here would be the massive fatigue you're putting on the archer, since unlike a crossbow the shooter has to do 100% of the work. Would still help for short bursts of intense shooting, but I can imagine the reload period would actually be something of a desired rest for the shooter.
That edit of the “five” men shooting together is exactly what makes me think this thing would be terrifying and absolutely would have had a place in history. You wouldn’t put this in your best bowman’s hands - you get a horde of strong peasants capable of raining Hell on the enemy. BLOCK OUT THE SUN!
Strong peasants probably don't have the right muscles, unless they already train with (heavy) bows.
@@MDP1702 Yeah, but they most likely had lighter bows that could be fitted with the instant Legolas. Conscripts would not be as effective as professional archers, but that's expected.
5 accurate arrows is better than 5 non-accurate ones. There could be parameters in this calculation we don't think of, but the general thinking is that you want your best gear on your best troops.
Agreed
Guys please remember.
For higher poundage yes it's for master archers. But the horde of instant Legolas peasant will be a frightening force in battle. Those arrow maybe never penetrate knight armor. But volume itself is more than enough.
Those knight will know the horror of supressing fire.
@@avienated ever heard of supressing fire, mate? AK 47 is in anyway worse then m16 in accuracy. Yet why killed more then m16? Because sometimes war is not about quality, but it's about quantity.
Super cool mate! Just talking with Joe over a mary rose warbow. Cant wait! Thanks for all the cool content. Youre helping to keep out knowledge alive.
This is wild!!! Several good points were mentioned such as the unneeded sightsetc. The bowmen of this time shot game with their bows to eat. Sights were and are too slow for rabbits etc so they simply got good at hitting what they wanted to hit. This is a really interesting appliance. There is likely a market for it
Loved the "Let me show you its features!" with Joergs laugh in the background
12:18 I suspect one more reason it was so tiring for Joe is that there's so much less time between shots for his muscles to relax and recuperate. Compared with the crossbow vs longbow clip, I believe he fired his 5th arrow at the same time the clip showed him firing his 2nd - pulling over twice as often for the time taken. That's got to take its toll.
Nice work, Tod - and great to see Joe again. I was taught as a kid to pull back with the shoulders instead of the arm, but I never really understood how that worked until watching Joe.
True.
This is a bit like weights trainings in gyms. Usually a set is done in 20 secs but suddenly had to do in half the time.
I definitely agree the timing changes would be a significant increase in difficulty.
Holy moly I need this for my Bow. It´s amazing to watch. Good job on this
Absolutely amazing.
imagine using an instant legolas on a static frame like a balista holding it, with two people.
its basically a machine bow right there
heck, you might be able to hook up a mechanism for a donkey or horse going in a circle powering repeated drawbacks for even more power
The Greek had something like that. It's called a Polybolos. It operates a little differently from this, though, considering that the Polybolos has a stationary magazine relative to the bow limbs. The Instant Legolas moves the entire mechanism back and forth more like the Chinese repeating crossbow.
You would be better off using a Chinese or Korean design of a mounted repeating-crossbow.
DO IT
@@BrokenLifeCycle didnt the mythbusters build one in one of their episodes?
Joe did just move a total of 3000lbs in a short period of time. That can't be easy. What a beast!
That kind of math is really revealing sometimes. My dog passed a little over a year ago and I was quite upset - I dug his grave in about 20 minutes, and couldn't imagine why I was *so* sore for the next two days, so I did some figuring. Turns out a 6 foot diameter hole, 4 feet deep, represents about 3000lb of soil. Twice. That's a hell of a lot of energy. I can only imagine what he'd do under stress of battle, adrenaline pumping - I would not want to be downrange!
This is brilliant!
Having watched the video with the testing against the armour, I noticed that John opens his bow a lot less there. I believe that the weight that is making John feel shooting a lot harder is due to the fact that the mechanism forces him to much higher loading of the bow. A shorter mechanism, tailored to width of John's opening would probably remediate that.
I have to say, the "5 Joe's" fast barrage of arrows was very intimidating and super cool!
Thank you Tod and Joe for the amazing video.
And thank you for putting the effort on developing this new concept in archery. You guys and Jöerg are making history, literally!
One problem I can immediately see is that the handle is set further back than the bowstring--Joe's having to draw further than he usually would
Edit: turns out he's not and I'm wrong!
Actually it is set to a 31" draw from belly to grip, so about his usual
To mitigate this, just take a heavier bow and draw it shorter.
@@tods_workshop Draw length is usual, but positioning of arm isn't. I think it isn't fault of design but needs to get used to.
@@tods_workshop Oh, I watched again. My bad. But still there is a little difference in positioning, that could be enough to make it harder.
@@tods_workshop What I meant was at 8:56 mark in video.
that's just beautiful great work!
Fascinating stuff (archer of 40 years and ex-instructor). I'm normally a chap who doesn't believe in trigger releases, compounds etc (but I do use a sight as I'm mainly a target archer) but these designs/mods etc are wonderful ;)
Something like this when you are defending a castle would make a lot of sense to my mind. If you are on the defense you are bound to be quite heavily outnumbered so being able to lay down a lot of fire in a short time period, specially from a hidden position in a tower for example could give your enemy pause for thought about your numbers, but also blunt the attack, if they suddenly take a volume of fire they did not expect it could be enough for people to step back and consider their plans.
All in all it sounds like a sort of device you want to use when you lack the numbers, could hence also make for an amazing ambush weapon, sitting the undergrowth of a forest along a trail, enemy troops move by and suddenly all hell breaks loose, 4-6 arrows each and then you just run for it or you can close in to finish the job.
And finally volume of fire is always a thing, if you are on a battlefield where they could swiftly close in on your archers, being able to quickly lay down a lot a fire could be a deciding factor as at that point you are not after endurance.
I think Tod pointed out this would be excellent for naval warfare; repelling boarders and doing drive (?) by shootings of enemy ships
Agreed, it could also open up some sort of light skirmishers like seen in the Napoleonic wars: when you have fired 5 arrows in the time of 2 shots, your archer squads can rotate or retreat faster while still putting in some real suppression, much like javelins... But much better than javelins, it being a bow. Imagine if at Azincourt the English archers could move back a few meters after every 5 shot volley, maybe reloading while walking. It would've been even more of a massacre than it already was.
@@JudgeAnnibal This. So much this. Musket tactics with these things would be absolutely terryfing. Basically the capability to fire an arrow hail as long as you have munitions. It actually always surprises me that masked tactics seemingly were never used with crossbows. That would habe offset the loading time limit massively.
It definitely has the advantage of being able to either take your time and aim (while they are far away) or unload fast (when they get close). A normal archer or crossbowman you could try to rush, between shots. But, it wouldn't work with this bow. You'd get punished for trying to charge an archer line equipped with these.
This was impressive with just 5 simulated archers. Imagine if you had a whole battalion...🤯 you could turn the tide of a battle in minutes maybe seconds.
As for the grip and friction, I think a vertical grip would be more ergonomic. You have to bear in mind Joerg is used to shooting sling shots wich have horizontally oriented rubber, bows have vertically oriented string that is thinner than the rubber. This probably throws off Joe's muscle memory.
Edit: The front handle isn't a design flaw imo. Joe has just trained to hold his bows closed handed. You don't need to shoot like that, in an open grip you simply let the bow rest in your palm and as you draw back the weight of the bow keeps it in place and when you release the recoil from the arrow going forward pushes the bow backward into your hand.
You can also see where the extra friction is coming from in Joe's draw. When he starts the draw the bow is ever so slightly forward away from his chest and as he draws further back pushes his chest out for leverage rather than relying on just his arms. This movement is hindered by the stiff frame wich is designed only to slide back and forth, not rotate. Perhaps a joint on the handle to allow for some flex during draw or some rollers in the slide to alleviate friction would help.
honestly it need not even be vertical or horizontal. It can be whatever angle actually does best. i imagine something like 30° off vertical would do quite well.
it would depend, cavalry and ambushes maybe, but battle lines of infantry? wouldn't be much different.
only that the sustainability of shooting is limited by the magazine size, instead of the amount of arrows in the quiver. Especially if you compare the 6 arrows shot WITHOUT the device opposed to the 5 shot with the device in the same time.
@@Nightkrowler If you are experienced, you can reload this device fairly quickly, pushing all 5 arrows in at the same time.
Overall, instant legolas is faster than normal bow.
@@dariusnoname12 except maybe if you are an asiatic archer that could shoot as fast as this thing
literally didn't notice the tshirt until the end. Nice! I love it.
Looking forward to see next episode!
Even if someone doesn't aim shoot it properly, the hailstorm of arrows from a formation of just 25 guys with this contraption could have easily scared away the opponents. Only one word.... RUN
And I'm sure the design can be refined to iron out these problems too
Downside is you'll very quickly run out of arrows.
He was tired because he was trying to shoot rapidly. There's little recovery time compared to shooting a regular bow. Over the course of 5 shots, you'd start to feel it.
the handle is mounted horizontally his muscles are use to pulling a vertical string *if you know anything about lifting weight this 45° rotation can make a huge difference in which muscles are being used, my theory is the horizontal grip is reliant on the shoulders more and a vertical grip would be more natural and use the stronger muscles of the back
Well made. I'd say the biggest struggle I saw in Joe was with the overdraw (because the handle to pull the mechanism extended draw length by a few inches, which makes it really hard to pull further back), not to mention changing the orientation of his bowstring grip.
Joerg may be the engineer, but you are definitely the craftsman. Your device is beatiful in every sense of the word.
Upon seeing the 5-archer edit: *screams in French knight*
this comment is so underrated
yea but in other video, their armor work.
Ah, but we aren't aiming to hit the armour!
What if French made it? Scream in English!!!
@@GuitarsRockForever Fun fact is in 100 years war both side speak French.
Im just imagining Jeorg saying his classic "Let Me show you it's features" as he sits on a throne and an army of every weapons youtuber (Skall, Shad, Metatron, etc.) rises from the bushes armed with Instant legolases and just aim them at some poor bastard
Exactly what i'm fantasizing lmao
"LET ME SHOW YOU ITS FEATURES HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA" -Joerg since birth-
Shad's too busy with his wanky back scabbards.
Skal shad metatron.. Cringelords. I like shad tho
@@stevenpremmel4116 Shad pulls his Instant Legolas out from a custom made back scabbard.
This is awesome beyond belief!
Wow i haven't watched joerg sprave in years, awesome to see him still doing what he does best
*Shows DM this video*
DM: No
*Sad noises*
DM: *Secret writes an evil army with archer column armed with this attachment*
As a long time ST/DM, I can confirm.
DM here, the master archers of Menet already use these in my world :)
Fully intent to let them loose on my party at some point.
Task failed successfully.
i see you have been cursed with a lawful evil DM
I just allowed a modified version of this for a ranger PC in my Pathfinder game.
Imagine 50 of these firing and reloading in ranks, or a walltop full of defenders armed with them. 😨
and they cant be shot back
@Max De Jong Oh God, that'd be terrifying
@Max De Jong Imagine the poor logistics guy. F to pay respect
Well, the Chinese had the repeating crossbows which this was the basis of this bow that they used for urban warfare back in the Warring States period [481 BC to 403 BC] in China. There were reports of soldiers coming out looking like porcupines with arrows stuck all over their body. Up the draw-weight to an actual bow and the lethality would increase quite a bit. You could create an arrow storm with a handful of people.
This would have a limited use for defense due to the bulk, the bow would be difficult to fit into most defense structures
Having in mind that Joe felt the 120 pounds bow as a 160 pounds bow (even though it may be caused by Joe not being accustomed to the SIL system) it would be interesting if you could add a pulley system to actually take advantage on a more efficient way of the bowman's strength.
It would be a huge advantage if the instant Legolas allows Joe to feel the 120 pounds bow as a 90 pounds bow 😸
I've seen videos of people using instant legolas systems on compound bows, which sounds exactly like what you're thinking of. However, compound bows are a very modern invention (circa 1960) and therefore aren't very medieval. You could probably design an instant legolas system with a spring that would assist with the draw, but even the first springs weren't invented until the late modern age (mid-1700s), so that also isn't very medieval.
Not to discount your idea by saying "that's not very medieval" of course.😋
@@amish-ish The composite bow comes as far as the Bronze age with the Sinew variants From middle east, Being used proeminently by nations such as The Mesopotamian Assyrians, Babilonians, and later the persians. The Nomads also had their variant of composite bows
@@picollojr9009 Composite is a different thing to compound.
@@amish-ish I don't know if you've seen it yet, because he made it quite a while ago so you might have, but Joerg made an assist mechanism that uses a second lighter bow as the "spring". All you have to do is attach the assist bow backwards in front of the main bow and extend a part of the sliding mechanism out further to reach the assist bow's string.
Generally, the second bow should be around half the draw weight of the main bow, and you'll want a bit more draw length on it so that it can stay under a bit of tension while the main bow is at full draw. That being said, the physiology that is required for Joe Gibbs to draw 200-pound bows might not work as easily in reverse, and the high rate of fire would certainly be exhausting, so don't expect a 400-pound SIL to be possible.
I think you are absolutely brilliant at building such amazing weapons 🤗
At some point I'd like to see a range and penetration comparison of the "Instant Legolas" to various standard bows and crossbows.
As long as the string and arrow don't get much more friction as it is loosed, it has the same range and penetration as the naked bow. An exception for using shorter length bolts that might affect that
@@calebjowens Shorter bolts are going to effect it. If they're the same weight they have less air resistance and thus better performance at range. If they have less weight they have higher velocity and thus better performance at range. There's some minimum projectile weight to not damage the bow, but I'm not sure how that compares to the minimum weight to make an arrow that can handle the acceleration while being long enough to fully draw.
@@nathanbrown8680 It's worth noting that since this system guides the bolt for the full length of travel, the bolt has no length requirement as far as the draw is concerned.
The main drawback from what I can see, (as far as range and accuracy are concerned,) is that to make the bolts flow through the mag and chamber correctly they must have a pair rather than a triad of flights.
Also, having a projectile be lighter or equal in weight to some other projectile shot from the same weapon doesn't necessitate better performance, if performance is measured in penetration.
Slingshot channel.
I assume this would have gotten min-maxed to the extreme, eventually coming up with the optimal ratio between draw weight, draw length, arrow length and arrow weight. I'd say range would get ditched in favor of penetration potential, given that you'd care less about keeping your distance when you can unload such a volume of arrows even with small groups. Also, "stripper clips" for this device already exist, and I'd argue that to be the scariest potential feature of the Instant Legolas...
I can imagine that 5 guys with this thing would be really scary
It's like the medieval version of a heavy-machinegun team
add a partial gear with crank such as what joerg did for the drill powered machinegun variant except with a crank handle and this thing becomes even more of a beast
now imagine 15 divided in 3 ranks with two reloading while the front 5 shoot
@@AdarBlu
reloading....
slip slip slip slip slip....
@@Aalienik Much more a squad of lever actions when everyone else has single-shots.
So much passion!
Love this video, I definitely need one
I love the "let me show you its features" and the added in laughter.
Instant satisfaction.
I love how Tod is like an enthusiastic noble man with a new toy getting his best archer to try it out and see what he thinks and Joe is just like 'Yarp 'ee be 'ite bey but I'd rather me bow'
That‘s an astoundingly accurate analogy
The court engineer
Now that’s amazing!
So great! I hope you be better in the future. Good tool for hunting
When a game let u choose which upgrade u want for your bow
Me: *M A G A Z I N E*
And semi-auto
One thing they could have done is made the handle Joe draws with vertical... then he would use same muscles as the real bow. This would be awesome. :)
@@tonyneri6245 it's not semi auto since you have to move parts for reloading
Try walking a mile and then try running a mile. You'd get more tired of running, and I suspect that something similar is happening here. Joe is shooting faster and thus getting tired faster.
Exactly my thoughts. Joe's body is used to a certain pace of shooting. Increase that pace and his body will start rebelling against it. I think if he put in some practice, let his body find balance in engaging different muscles at different times and developed a proper breathing technique he could get used to shooting the 120 lbs legolas regularly.
@@B3RyL Or even imagine 100 sil-archers holding a position, split the group into halves or thirds, group A shoots and then reloads and rests their arms while group B shoots etc. Eventually you would find the optimum group split for sustained fire. You're still shooting more arrows than a group of 100 regular longbows and if the enemy closes you can go full fire at will until the Infantry has to take over.
It looks to me that here there are a couple of things in play. Shooting faster does not give the muscles the chance to recover, so it will be more difficult, at least towards the end. The position is quite different, and the movement is too. Since you need to train very, very specific muscles to be proficient with the kind of heavy bows we talk about here, tiny changes will have big consequences, so more work would be needed either to get the Instant Legolas closer to the normal bow movement, or the archer will need time to train the proper muscles for the new movement. Both things look possible to me.
Another thing is needed poundage. Maybe this should be used in situations where rate of fire is more important than power, and you really, really need a fast burst of arrows, because after that it no longer matters. Think if your archers are being rushed by cavalry. The range where the archers can do proper damage is limited, they can't really shoot at 200 meters, and that usable range is covered by horses in maybe a handful of seconds. Yes, a powerful bow will kill one enemy, but 5 arrows from a slightly lighter bow will maybe disable 2, or 3, or 4 of the charging enemy. It might be enough to stop the charge and send the attackers back.
One last thing about the aiming devices (the lever and the sights). So far we talked about speed. What if a trained archer will basically take the role of a sniper, so he has a high priority target, he can draw the bow, hold the handle so he can keep it drawn for a lot longer, use the sights to have even better aim than usually, and wait for the right moment to take the target out. The thing is you can more or less already do that with a cross bow, but if you are an archer, you already carry your bow and arrows and the IL device, so you can do this sort of a mission without carrying a crossbow too, you already have the weapons you need.
Now, i'm not a strategist, not military, not a historian, so this is just food for thought.
it's the same principal as driving a car, the faster you drive the more quickly (proportionately) you use up fuel
Yes it's conditioning. If you're only used to walking you will tire quickly when running. If you train regularly at running you will not tire so quickly. So someone who trains with this contraption regularly will find it easier to use.
awesome video!!! ty for the content.
awesome work!
@ Tod's workshop
Master bowmaker:
I humbly offer my opinions on upgrades you may already know. I have work with wood from age 6.
1. Put the finished SIL you made into a bakers oven to kiln to dry it for 15 minutes or so to drive out all the moisture.
While still warm cover it all with linseed oil, or lambs fat, or wool oil/ lanolin , or equivalent to keep it from warping, i.e. waterproof it and now fully lubricated.
2. Put it back in the oven to warm it and open the wood pours so the oil soaks in.
Pledge also works but may not be historically accurate.
3. Before shooting it run the channel tracks and outside box, arrows, arrow gutter with bees wax or soap on all friction areas.
Note:
All is dry wood and not lubricated. This equals heavy friction.
You may need to experiment with it to see what works best as you are working with Ash.
Soap, beeswax, linseed oil, lambs fat, wool oil.
Test scrap prices first to see, what works best on ash in a kiln or bakers oven.
People who make musical instruments or old wooden clocks maybe of help in figuring this out. As this technology is known to some of them.
Axel grease for wooden wheels was also common in ancient times.
I hope this helps you to make a better bow experience with the SIL.
I truly appreciate and admire your medieval rendition of this fine instrument.
You are helping to make living history, " alive".
Be blessed
Funny that you mention clockwork. To help facilitate the legolas being used on higher draw weights they could design a simple wooden gear reduction mechanism attached to a carriage for the string rather than one large two part rail mechanism. they had metal pulleys for crossbows, so it's not unimaginable that they could develope one for the instant legolas, or a gear mechanism for it aswell. It would also decrease the amount of surface area on the moving portions of the bow if you use a carrige/shuttle design similar to a loom, and just sanding down the outside and smoothing it out would reduce alott of the weight.
You three humans are a blessing.🙏
Old world weaponry is so cool, especially when combined with a little 21st century engineering and thinking.
I tried reworking flintlock rifles and attach three of them into a wheel, making it similar to a mounted minigun. It's for a fantasy setting that I came up with with my friends, and the concept is actually pretty cool.
Boid That seems highly impractical when faced with loading, and weight. Which is why when they did double barrels, they were a good even. The logical progression was cartridges, which led to six shooters and the like.
Logically flintlock was used similar to crossbows, because of the loading action, and even with three barrels you don’t negate that.
Might as well make it a fixed double assembly on a swivel mount, up the caliber making it a mini cannon, add your third gun onto a separate mount and assembly with a mate barrel.
Then just keep the two shots. One for a lead, one for the correction. Then the other gunner to alternate loading actions to maintain reasonable rates of fire.
The issues this gun faced are what I was thinking of. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nock_gun
How did you explain the engineering?
@@chickenmonger123 The main reasons you addressed is the main reason why I discarded it in the long run in favor of mounted cannons.
But I may come back to it. I just don't know how to tackle certain issues
Boid Ah well, that does make more sense. Good luck on your writing, hopefully you can shake it out. Often military doctrine bends to practicality. Make a logical world reason, and you can do all kinds of wacky shit, peculiar to that theatre of war.
Repeating flintlocks were a thing, see Kalthoff or Lorenzoni guns for instance made at the tail end of the 18th century, and the Kalthoff guns were even earlier, made in the 17th century, people back then definitely didn't lack ingenuity. It's just that when it comes to issuing firearms en masse is already difficult enough, cost, quality control and standards of manufacture, time, complexity of design, those are all important things when you're thinking about issuing your troops with any new technology.
Flintlocks or rather proto flintlocks like the snaphaunce came around in the 16th century, but it took well over a 100 years before they were being issued to any troops in any significant numbers, and another 50 until it became the mainstay of European armies simply because the matchlock was a far more common and well understood lock mechanism, it was what the manufacturers were familiar with, just like a lot of manufacturers are familiar with the AR or AK family of rifles today, and will probably keep manufacturing those designs for a very long time.
Also if you're thinking about some kind of revolving design well my boy James Puckle got your back, he made a revolving, repeating cannon that relied on a flintlock mechanism in 1718, or well the patent was from 1718, I can't remember exactly how long he took to come up with that, apparently the Royal Navy was interested but ultimately the weapon never went anywhere, might wanna look into that for inspiration, the operating mechanism is pretty interesting.
great video!! loved the multi shooting...imagine that on an ancient battle field!
Just now discoverying his videos. Excellent and unique material he covers.
14:09 - These things with five guys trained to work as a unit and adopt complimentary firing positions would make a massive difference in the ranks of a defending army within a besieged city or keep.
I think it would actually fare better in that urban environment at the 10-20 yard range where the attacking force weren't expecting either an unconventional or decentralized defense.
Make it a 8-10 man group, half with these and the rest with shields, spears, clubs etc. They all work in pairs basically glued together and then you do fire and maneuver, shield/spear guy focusing primarily on covering from enemy archers and enemy infantry that gets to close.
@@Lappmogel You. I like you. You can stay.
Add 10 loaders and 10 more bows and it becomes a CIWS mount.
@@MonkeyJedi99 at that point you've actually made a specialist unit of invader surpression which is probably what would have naturally acurred which probably would have become the early version of a new branch of military or something
its funny, they mention the logistics of these if say, 14000 archer fired these off simultaneously loosing 70,000 arrows in 5 seconds then having to reload, but i raise that logic one "why reload? you have probably thrown the enemy into so much disarray at this point just drop the bow, draw your mace/axe/lucerne/spears ready your best board and charge the enemy while they are still checking if it really is spontaneously nighttime" after a group fires these off, especially against an ill prepared foe, continuing the deluge of arrows would be pointless compared to some good hardy suppressive wacks from everyone's best war friend, the mace. even against heavily armored infantry (which would be incredibly rare to begin with) the number of arrows are likely to find somewhere to stick and at minimum send them reeling from impact.
11:00 how the medieval archers would be depicted on tapestry if instant legolas existed
If someone doesn't make that happen I will with a very poor drawing haha
Wow, now that you mention it, I can picture it; what a magbificent pose, really, to strike so casually XD
this comment needs a medieval artists attention
@@narutaki4554 Ask, and ye shall recieve. www.artstation.com/artwork/188WmZ
@@jacksonjewell8173 and saved! That drawing is awesome, thank you so much :D
Great craftsmanship!! Very impressive
Cooool! Love you n Jorge
13:31 RIP anything not wearing full plate harness...
Edit: Alright, shields are a thing, but you'd have to be actually using them, requiring awarenes of the archers' presence and reacting to them by rising said shields. My point, although not initially clarified, was about ambush potential to slow-reacting targets such as marching columns.
Edit 2: gramatical boogaloo...
Even in full plate, this would give you a bad day. Throw enough arrows down range, and one of them will find an opening where the plate isn't.
or deform the plate enough to make it ineffective.
@@curranegan5512 Lucky shots are rare and not to be relied on. Especially at the range a bowman would engage at. And areas that aren't covered by plate aren't just naked. Its usually covered in mail or other material meant to protect from arrows and other attacks targeting would be weak points.
@@alexlawson4173 That would require one knight in plate to be focused at close range. Even at close range a high weight crossbow or longbow barely get a dead-on flat shot that deforms the plate and even then its not much, most are glancing shots. Longer range with less energy and it will be even less likely.
@@Nyx_2142 Well, not even a 1000lb crossbow can penetrate plate dead-on at 5m, so i think volume of fire and accuracy does have importance in targeting the weaker spots. arrows and bolts doesn't have much trouble in piercing mail either, so having a lighter poundage is fine in certain circumstances.
The Grip at the end was a very important part of Joerg's invention, the ability to hold the drawn bow for longer aim time
now it's only remaining feature is it's *speed* ;)
I have a *suggestion* thought:
how about an *arch* of a grip on the bow over the left hand, you put your arm in it as a glove, when you are at the end of the draw, and right as you reach the final grip, you can safely open your left hand knowing the arch got your arm, so the bow is safe from flying out left, while holding the bow with your thumb just enough to grab the grip at the end
I think you may be onto something. Not the glauntlet thing but the arm support part. In a similar way to how some slingshots use arm bars to stabilise and increase power and accuracy. That may very well improve it even more as it takes some load of your musculature. But in turn could also encumber you.
@@theexchipmunk I didn't quite catch how this works. Could you post any example of a slingshot shot in this manner you describe?
It's more about overcoming ingrained habits. If Joe would practice and get used to the fore grip, I bet he'd like it.
It’s also lacking the reverse bow, that could have reduced the weight the archer felt.
@@AggelosKyriou im assuming they meant this.
img.grouponcdn.com/deal/4Tw4HkBeELgVyQqCVXH3u9mpeMft/4T-1200x720/v1/c700x420.jpg
This was a brilliant creative idea fantastic
That's a good idea followed up with some well done engineering. Cool.
You are a genius smith, Tod. Material use, your discoveries along the way, and the results speak for themselves.
And Joe helped too.
Imagine Tod being able to present this to the court of Henry V. First of all, France as we know it today wouldn't exist. Second, Tod Cutler would be the Hiram Maxim of arrow firing weapons.
Yea...apart from the French sun which may well have done poor Henry in by heatstroke in his armour ... apart from that
I doubt that since 100 years is not singular battle and more attributed by the French keep fucking up their deployment.
Also English monarchy are more likely to be destroyed by their own countrymen in form of civil war.
And you probably speaking French right now if the Plantagenet still in power.
*Sad Rhine-Westphalian noises*
Joerg wanted to present it's features to the emperor.
@@yulusleonard985 wouldnt have needed to be a single battle. that kind of firepower is enough to shatter a charge of cavalry, or break a formation of archers, or shatter an infantry block in a single blow. That is the difference between victory or defeat in a battle. If the english armies had these to carry for its archer corps they would have likely won more battles which could have broken the french monarchy which would have resulted in the dissolution of the united french state. Even if the plantaganets fall later to civil war the history of the world could easily have been rewritten.
The reason why the Plantagenets lost France wasn't because they lacked success on the battlefield, it was because Henry V died of an illness at a young age and thereby his son, Henry VI was to young to be able to consolidate the French crown as per his father and grandfather's agreement at the Treaty of Troyes that the French Crown was to pass to the English monarch. Prior to his untimely death Henry V has effectively destroyed the French Royal claim to France. He didn't need an instant Legolas, he needed penicillin.
Brilliant!
Absolutely awesome, the 5 man team unleashing 25 arrows quickly, was a great demo. Like an archer assault team. I had a thought, why not turn the handle at the back 90 degrees? Might explain some of the issues with the higher pull feeling, as I reckon you'd be using different muscles in a different movement.
It seems like joe is forced into a particular draw style with the SIL. He’s got very specific and good technique that he isn’t able to utilize. I think it might be possible to engineer some adjustments that would allow him to get the most out of his ability
And that's what I think makes this interesting for those who never has used a bow before. Having no "bad habits" they have nothing to distract them from just leaning into the IL and accepting the stance. The rigid stance makes it repeatable which should cut down on the training needed.
This is of course only a theory. I also think that someone who get started with one of these might be able to learn to live with the front grip and use it effectively even with heavier bows, but again it's only theory.
It would be interesting to hear what a kinesiologist thinks about the change in stance. Is it any better or worse for the body than the traditional way to do it?
@@blahorgaslisk7763 you are incorrect
Like for example rotating and swiveling draw handle
I doubt it would take much to turn the draw handle, I also originally thought the front grip might be there as a stop, so you don't pull the entire thing off the bow if that's the case simply put it in top?
@@eirikronaldfossheim This is beyond foolish...
Always appreciate how man times Tod says 'Tod' when Tod introduces Tod of Tod's workshop and Tod Cuttler here. Thanks Tod, keep saying Tod.
Americans: "how many pillows does it take to stop a 50. cal??"
Europeans:
So cool. Luv it.
Fascinating!
Brilliant video! I loved the multiple bowmen shots!
Thanks Jason - sorry, just picked this up - appreciated
That would be terrifying on a medieval battlefield.
This would be really game changing. Especially if they have been organized in loading/shooting rows
Imagine 100 archers using this at the same time, raining arrows
I think that Joerge designed the grip horiziontally because its optimized for his range of motion when using heavy slingshots
an experienced warbow archer could do better with a vertical grip instead as thats the range of motion they are used to
however the horizontal grip is probably better biomechnically,
-a gym bro would be able to answer this
I'm no gym bro, but my understanding is that turning your thumb up and out will give you more mobility through the shoulder. If you put your arm out straight in front of you and try to reach up and back you'll probably get further with your thumb up than thumb down. Something to do with the geometry of the bones in the shoulder makes it easier for them to slide past each other with the arm rotated out. The movement of drawing the bow is different, but playing around with it now it feels much smoother and more natural to draw with the hand vertical than horizontal, especially towards the end of the draw. Just my thoughts, someone with a relevant qualification could probably provide more certainty.
Maybe even an angled grip?
@@awsomeoawsomeo2103 Some other angle would probably be better than perfectly vertical or horizontal, though exactly what that angle would be I do not know. You'd probably need to do a fair bit of testing to find roughly the right angle, and even then the perfect angle for different individuals would probably vary. Someone mentioned a flexible grip of some kind, if something like that could be used it could help remedy the problem, or at least assist in figuring out what the right angle is.
Just make it to where that grip isn't in a static position. With some kind of swivel or something. That way it would naturally go to the proper angle when drawing.
@@paulhughes3315 maybe that is too delicate for medieval crafting method to produce?
Amazing!
Can't wait for the update films
"you're in a slightly different position, so i makes you work a bit harder". You should follow up on that, and work with Joe to polish up the design!
Exactly. Rotate the pulling grip and set it precisely along the length of the draw that the shooter is accustomed to. Having to pull beyond his head is much more awkward, and likely felt goofy - if not technically "harder". The pulling handle needs to be an adjustable length to fit most users comfort spots for aiming /size of bow.
Yep! Idealizing the positioning of the final grip would be key. Still impressive as is.
Ergonomics can go a long way, if you need to use an unfamiliar piece of equipment, but muscle memory over time can negate ergonomics entirely. It's quite a strange occurrence.
If you use a wooden shovel enough, it becomes an extension of your body and even better than a well researched light weight titanium handled shovel with rubber grips in the right places.
“It would never been able to be made in the medieval time period “
Medieval proof of concept is more advanced then original design
That is awesome! It should be in a film! With the heavy bow, it does look like the radius and ulna are twisted so more exertion is needed to hold the position.
Love the archery.
I remember that goofy, 4 way crossbow, that they use briefly in a scene in Gladiator, was something a prop master built quickly just because it looked intimidating. I’ve always wondered what interesting experimental weapons were made and lost to time.
Lol yeah last time I ever saw someone talking about it was in some forum *kinda long time ago
Weird how it isnt talked about
Maybe tell joerg about it? hed have some interesting ideas with it
check out forgotten weapons youtube channel!
Cheiroballistra.
That rate of fire is very impressive, I’m a skilled shooter with a rifle, and while yes the range differs greatly, that rof pretty much matches it, I can definitely see this equipment being used in urban or crowd control environments for both medieval and possibly modern times
The start made me smile😁
this is so awesome