Medieval Warbow vs Windlass Crossbow - Speed, Accuracy
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- Опубликовано: 22 сен 2019
- Shooting a HEAVY 160lbs medieval longbow against a HEAVY 860lbs medieval crossbow to look at the speed of shooting and the level of accuracy each of these classic weapons can achieve.
How many shots will the longbow get off against the crossbow?
Which is more accurate?
These trials are very set around a chat between Joe Gibbs, longbow archer and Tod from Tods Workshop, crossbow maker; where we range through training regimes, tactics, power, effectiveness, uses etc.......
Joe Gibbs was shooting a 160lbs Swiss mountain yew longbow, 80g approximate arrow weight
Tod was shooting a 860lbs windlass crossbow, 80g approximate bolt weight
Distance was 25m
You can see Joe shooting this bow against a period accurate breastplate using period arrows here • ARROWS vs ARMOUR - Med...
Check out Joe in this film shooting 170lbs... • Warbow, Joe Gibbs, Eng...
Joe's channel / joe8gibbs
If you would like to support my work on this channel you can always buy my fantastic reproduction medieval weaponry available here todcutler.com
For medieval crossbows from Tods Workshop, check out todsworkshop.com/collections/...
For Joe's bows check out / hillbillybows
Filmed and Edited by Mike Chernett
All the dislikes are from the French cavalry.
Fey , thats a good one. lol .
Je n'aime pas ton commentaire :P
Historical burn!
Ahahah your comment is on point, bien joué!
Most appropriately amusing.
"he can shoot an impressive 200 lbs"
Me: *solemnly puts away 32 lb. recurve*
40lb and I can only pull back 40 times with a considerably worse aim. Admittedly I really haven't been practicing or using my arms for a couple years.
if you been trining since you were old enough to walk like it was in those days, you had nothing else to do as a kid lol
@@DeuceGenius plus it was the law to shoot a bow. Every man between the ages of 14 to 65 had to shoot every Sunday. The English army could draw on their archer supply literally lol
Honestly, I'm only accurate at a pint.
I made an 87# Osage Self bow about 8 years ago here in Michigan. I have shot quail, carp, and phesants with it. It does wear you down after a while of shooting it. I could not imagine drawing one that is 160#!!
He shoots the bow like in the 13th century paintings.
I always thought those old artist were shit at painting/needlepointing. Turns out they were bang on.
Except he puts the arrow on the left side instead of the right
@@FoundWanting970 realistically knocking said arrow on the left side allows for more accurate and reliable shots rather than the rightt side while slightly tilting the bow. This stops any mishap of your arrow moving off the bow itself when tilting occurs and alot of smaller other factors such as technique, bow type and empire whatever you wanna go with
@@hughlowe2682 a well practiced archer shoots how they shoot best. An archer who practiced shooting the arrow right side will be just as accurate as an practiced archer shooting arrow left.
@@Beuwen_The_Dragon this is true, what matters most is how they're trained.
One thing you have to remember about crossbow mercenaries is how they fought. They sallied out into the field in plate armor, set up their shields in a defensive ring and fired from there. They were like a mobile fortress that were able to withstand charges and other attempts to dislodge them. The ability to fire effectively in heavy armor, that as your channel demonstrated, that can deflect longbow arrows made them very very durable. That combined with the tacit understanding that engaging in melee was likely made them very useful and expensive.
This is in contrast to the longbow man's gabison and mail, which again you've demonstrated, can be pierced at range. While they were certainly capable fighting in melee, their kit was not designed for it and using them in such a role would not be an ideal use of their skill set.
The Genoese crossbow mercenaries ran in panic during the battle of Agincourt.
@@ngauruhoezodiac3143 Crecsy not Azincourt. Only because they had no shields, that didnt make on time for the battle.
@@pawebiaas1512 In Agincourt the French aristocracy was looking for a quick and glorious victory. The attack was poorly planned and the crossbowmen did not have targets. Then came an immature cavalry charge that really screwed things for the crossbow mercenaries.
@@ngauruhoezodiac3143 they were never going to win. Welsh longbowmen would cut them down any day of the week. Stakes set and more firepower. No brainer
@@TwpsynMawr crossbows are way more powerful
Game devs: the crossbow is a silent weapon
Crossbows: HEY KID WANT TO HEAR MY MUSKET IMPRESSION
To be fair most crossbows in games aren't 800+ pound draw weight mini siege weapons
@@greenmario3011I would imagine that a modern style crossbow would be much quieter. Edit, and according to several people who have experience in such matters I would imagine wrong.
the mission xbows are very quiet i put fluffy velcro on my bow limbs and filled the inside of my riser on my recurve bow with cotton wool the string quietner its proply silent the impacts are louder than the shots
Compared to a gun shot it might as well be silent.
@@edwardteach3000 No, its not.
game developers:Archers are fragile and weak in close combat.
Joe Gibbs: Hold my longbow.
a lot of that is just for game balance reasons
English archers frequently fought in the melee, but they would have a been at a disadvantage against better-armored foes, all other things being equal.
I'll have you know that my Crossbowmen almost outperform my Greatswords in Warhammer Fantasy. Well, that's due to my luck with rolling dice. But my Crossbowmen are always a surprise when it comes into melee.
On a more serious Game design discussion topic: the Pen and Paper RPG Rulework Pathfinder (1. edition, a DnD 3.5 derivative) there are Bows that allow you to use your strength modifier on attack rolls, while they are way more costly they enable for strong Bowmen. You still need Dexterity to hit, but a Strength 20 Dex 20 Archer could be a Pain to deal with. I find that ruling prety cool because you're basically getting Bows with different drawstrength. Crossbows only come in the light and Heavy variants, so basically Hunting Crossbow and Windlass/Crannequin. Oh, I forgot the repeating Crossbow that is handled as a xotic weapons.
Crossbow Builds generally tend to go into the direction of a Sniper kind of character while Builds for Bows can lean more into mobility and volume/rate of shooting. I just hope that in time more systems, both PnP and Video games, adapt to that.
Historical reports tell otherwise the english archers were lethal and brutal in close quarter combat, normally armed with an arming sword and buckler they showed no mercy to their enemy, so much so even the english knights were a taken back at their brutality. When knights captured knights they were normally ransomed back to the enemy for a price or prisoner exchange but archers didn´t have that privlige, reports say an archer sitting on a fallen knights chest would drive a dagger through his visor.
Most battles ended in close quarter combat and the archers played their part and off course were well trained in hand to hand combat, why wouldn´t they be its your life thats at stake it only common sense.
@@federicoponchiroli3762
Agreed. It would be very weird if the people who mostly train archery and mostly carry archery gear would be superior in close combat to the people who mostly train close combat and carry mostly close combat gear. If that were the case, why would the close combat specialists not simply also train archery and carry a bow around, and thus become better at close combat.
We need to differentiate between "archers are helpless in a melee" and "archers are worse at melee than the people who specialize in melee combat". I think the latter is almost certainly true if we do not assume the people involved to be absolute idiots.
I love how the art of the time depicts archers leaning forward in the same way as Joe shoots
Looks awkward, I think I'm too used to Hollywood / TV styles.
It is a function of biomechanics and physics, instinctively learned through rigorous training.
Makes sense. That's how guns are fired aswell. You lean forward to brace your body in place, and when holding the gun/crossbow/bow in that stance causes your view to perfectly go in line with the gun's sight, or down the shaft of the arrow/bolt, since for old bows and crossbows you'd need to use a point fire style aiming where you use the arrow/bolts shaft as a reference point to gauge where you're wanting to hit
@@Gameprojordan its also to engage all your back muscles to draw with maximum strength
@@JonCombo it's necessary for pulling high poundage bows. The bows actors use are toy bows
Just me who notices how good Joe's posture is sitting there? Back muscles acting like a steel back brace lol
Goals
He pulls 200 pounds his back muscles are probably steel
@@jackson8373 210 actually sometimes. He adds a 10 lb rubber training band occasionally.
His back is insane.
A strong back is how you solve most back problems. I had back problems most of my life. The worst was when I couldn't even get out of bed for almost a week. When I started working out and doing deadlifts and other back exercises, all those problems went away. As we have learned recently, most doctors are after money, not your health. If they cared about your health, they wouldn't be prescribing expensive pills with terrible side effects, they would be prescribing exercise and a better diet.
man this channel has been pure gold in the past months
For sure, glad the channel ended up in my feed.
Agreed
@@tods_workshop a Goat Foot Lever would be Faster .
@@tods_workshop Know You some Thing about Mounted Cross bow Worriors ?
Agreed..the videos have just been brilliant just like this one!
It's so refreshing and inspiring to see accurate testing and reporting on medieval weaponry. The internet and the media at large have been plagued by flawed tests, repeated myths and misconceptions, and outright biased videos for too long, even in supposedly well made documentaries.
@incinerator950 When the bows were recovered from the wreck of Mary Rose ( lost in the 1550s) the majority were 70 to 90 pounds. Likewise Tarter archers in the 18th and 19th century were using 70 pound bows. These dates are after the abandonment of armour so the need for the massive penetration had dropped off. To what extent were archers using heavier bows at earlier times beyond claims in historical records is unknown.
@@tods_workshop Interesting, older estimates were much lower than that. Generally below 100 lbs.
@Hammer 001 You didn't read the link you posted I see.
Hammer 001. Someone was wrong on the internet. Big deal. Everyone is wrong sometimes. You do what Tod did, politely correct them and allow them to accept that correction or not (which John Waters seems to have accepted the correction). I think you went a tad overboard with your reply, but I will leave it at that.
But this can't be true! Everyone who has been playing video games knows crossbows penetrate armor almost as well as katanas! And you need dexterity for bows not strength.
"Why the heck does it take an entire turn action to load my crossbow in D&D?!?"
oh......
Great vid thanks! :D
A turn is 6 seconds isn't it? Good fucking luck mate.
@@Sir.Alonne Origianally in Ad&d a round used to be a minute. In later editions they changed it to 6 seconds. But the old rule for x-bows stayed.
Joe's technique and obvious complete upper body strength is incredible. Imagine 2000 medieval archers all loosing at the same time!
The muscles you use when shooting a traditional bow are rarely used in the gym or in everyday life. Many weightlifters are surprised when they discover how hard it is to draw a heavy bow when they first attempt it.
They made as many arrows as possible while on the march and kept shooting until they ran out of arrows when in battle. One archer might shoot over a hundred arrows.
@@imbluz It is a matter of technique more than strength. And those archers had compulsory training since the age of eight. Look at the forensic science of their bones. Shooting a longbow that requires 150 - 200lb to draw is not normal human strength.
Yeah 2000 nerf arrows vs 1 50 caliber BMG sniper rifle. Dude longbows were notorious for being unable to kill a single knight.
@@tusk3260 what? 2000 archers would defile one sniper your joking
11:51 "There's nothing in a gym that represents a bow."
*Bowflex sobs quietly in the corner*
Spirit Of The Law arbalests are still better tho elite crossbow tho
so true...i did Tae Kwon Do for several years and thought i was in great physical condition...i went to a gym where they train for mixed martial arts, and i couldn't physically keep up with the training....clearly, doing the activity you're trying to develop strength for is the best way to develop that muscle memory and the appropriate groups of muscles needed for said activity...
Whoa totally lol bowflex sounded epic until they think of this and they sob
That statement is such bullshit. A dumbell row or seated one arm cable row almost perfectly mirrors the motion of drawing a bow
@Alex Millroy Yes and no.. The bow engages the arms and the chest, but it is the back that does the bulk of the work to expand and pull.
I used to pull an 80lb longbow. The guys who could pull 150+ all looked like Hagrid.
My dad shot longbow in his youth and adulthood, he said you could not hold the bow drawn at all. I started shooting at 5 when my holder brothers started, when i was 16 i started the Air Rifle but still kept up with the Short bow i enjoyed it so much. I have to say i was a a crack shot of the mark from years of bow shooting from intuition, i could shoot a rabbit 30m away in the head through the car within a 4 second mark no problem. Bow shooting is super relaxing, fun and a great ZEN practice. Seeing this video has got me interested in taking up The Longbow and reconnect with the Celtic peoples of my past. Thank you Tods workshop and this Master Bowman!
I could pull a 40 when I was just 11. Highest I've done and shot is 172 pounds.
Ok, I sat for 20 minutes watching two blokes chatting on some steps, while nodding from time to time as if I was a part of the conversation. Am I just weird that way, or somebody else felt it too?
P.S. edit to acknowledge the skill and knowledge of the participants, Mr Tod, and Mr. Gibbs.
It was too long imo.
No, no,......I definitely nodded ...
A very informative video. No fluff or weird graphics with cheesy music, just two guys talking about their craft. High quality stuff. Subscribed.
The crossbow is a weapon, the longbow is a lifestyle.
Based name and pfp
so, you definately dont hunt.
Mike Linton you can hunt with a crossbow wth?
@@Zkako1151 basically, what i was saying is that hunting is a life style. ive done years of longbow archery and crossbow archery for the sake of being a better hunter. it turns out a crossbow is just an overall better tool for hunting, there really is no comparison. i loved the spirit of longbow shooting, but when it comes to smoking a deer at 35 yards or a squirrel at 20yards... you cannot beat the accuracy of and shootability of a crossbow.
@Ray my original point was about hunting. the ability to have a preloaded shot and SUPERIOR single target accuracy makes a a better weapon for hunting hands down.
millitarily, sure a bow is gonna be better due to volume of fire againsy masses of enemies, though id argue as far as shooting a simgle target a crossbow would have a higher hit probability.
just like your 17hmr is an excellebt small game gun and your 243 is an excellent medium game gun. id argue that my ar15 would be a better choice millitarily but it doesnt mean i couldn't hunt with it if need be. a slicker 243 (im assuming this is a bolt gun)is going to be lighter, simpler and easier to maintain out in the bush where that rate I of fire is not needed. not to mention a 243 cartridge is going to generally outperform .223/5.56 in game killing power.
each instrument has a task where it is best suited. longbow = millitary usage, crossbow = hunting.
i was contending the lifestyle bit by the OP originally.
Content-wise, you're knocking it out of the park, Tod!
Meanwhile at Hollywood: Draw, Aim, pause for 2 minuites as the protagonist and antagonist shout at each other across the battlefield. Okay now fire!
also, "fire", rather than "loose" or "shoot"
Let's not forget all archers being skinny males and females, the pinch shooting, the rapid firing etc etc
The thing I noticed most about this is that the archer had to loose the arrow right away but the crossbow was able to slow down and aim I wonder how long the crossbow could be left cocked and loaded before damage would be done to the crossbow itself
Depending on the poundage and bow material, I'd say a 1-2 hours for the average crossbow thats cock-able by hand. That's the advantage of a crossbow, aside from being easier to train and shoot
Many hours. The bigger danger is accidental firing.
Thank you so much Tod for these amazing tests.
Spot on.. the last few have been fantastic.
Moast underrated youtuber
Thanks Tod for making these amazing video !
@Andrew Gerety Easily. For the quality he makes, he deserves much more.
How is that underrated?
@Andrew Gerety Are you saying that you can't think of a number bigger than 100,000?
@@emarsk77 take that straw man home with you dickhead. His point is that out of the small percentage of people that find historical warfare entertaining enough to watch comparisons between medieval weapons, 100,000 is a pretty huge number. This isn't exactly mainstream content, genius.
@@blakesimmons5130 If you're unable to make your point without insulting people, I feel for you.
Imagine reloading crossbow for 6 mins just so u could miss the shot. 😂
Phfuuuuck
ragequit
exactly. crossbowmen normally had at least another crossbow with them plus someone to reset the crossbow for them to shoot
A windlass bow takes a couple of minutes to reload but although it has less power the crossbows that were loaded by standing on a footplate and using the legs and back could be reloaded in 30 seconds.
Lmao imagine it on ingame
Fitness instructor here, if you want to use a heavy bow as physical training, be sure to do it left handed aswell. All the muscles around the scapula and the glenhumeral joint are being heavily strained , especially the transversal and lower part of the Traps , the Lats, aswell as the posterior delt. All of them are very important for posture , so i would image you wouldnt want any heavy imbalances between the right and left side.
We can actually tell how many archers were present at old battlefields because their bone structure in the skeletons is unbalanced towards their shooting arm, it can definitely have an effect on you.
love how your channel grew by half in a month. You really deserve it, especially with this latest series. You are awesome!
The muscle around Joe's right shoulder blade is the only thing that scares Chuck Norris.
You guys pulled off this video very well. The demonstration and conversation and teaching are all very good.
love it!
just 2 guys having fun with their hobby!
thank you guys!
Bruh this archers right bicep is the size of my tensed ass cheek
A lot of the strength when drawing the bow is through your back.
10:17
How are you looking at your own tensed ass??????
@@markziff7234 very true the guys teres major is huge
😂😂😂
So for field use, Longbow is clearly better.
For sieges, crossbow comes into it's own.
Also for field armies, once the arrows are expended you have an awful lot of very very strong guys who can pick up a war hammer and join the melee.
You can also bring war wagons to the field lol.
Interesting that two of the armies of the first half of the 15th century which were centred around missile weaponry (the English and the Hussites) put such an emphasis on fieldworks and creating barriers that allowed them to shoot at the enemy from close range for an extended period of time.
the archer is going to be a lot more exhausted than the crossbowman after expending his ammunition though.
and the converse argument is that the crossbowman will need to spend less time and effort practicing with his primary weapon, so he has more time to spend on getting more skilled at melee combat.
Well, if a crossbow man actually consists of
1; shooter
1 loader & pavice mover
(Or even a second loader)
Then that could mean you have either a 2 or 3 man crew.
(2 being more likely though, if you'd have 3, then you might also have 2 crossbows pr team, and it seems unlikely)
And since I think shooting is easier than loading, it might not mean that the roles were set either.
The shooter could loose arrows until the loader is a bit tired,
(Or more likely, before the loader gets tired),
and then switch roles.
Not only would that increase loose speed,
but you now have 2 people carrying bolts. And being able to move the pavice.
In the heat of battle, I imagine a 2 crew configuration could be highly effective, and less influenced by arrows and stones coming their way than bow men behind spears.
There's also the trouble that once your army loses big, and a lot are slaughtered, relying on bow men might just be out of the question for a long long time.
@@JDahl-sj5lk I don't think comparing a longbowman to a crossbow team is an especially fair comparison, the true equivalent to a crossbowman and loader/pavice mover would be 2 longbowmen, both from a man-power perspective and also cost, with mechanically assisted crossbows (eg windlass or cranequin, mandatory for powerful crossbows of the early 15th century) being so much more expensive than a longbow (basically a fancy stick and some cord) and the wages higher too.
Basically given a set pool of people and resources, how many of each could an army field.
Ser Garlan Tyrell
The comparison wasn’t really to be fair,
but just thoughts on why crossbows were used, how to utilize them most effectively, and why they would cost more to hire.
While the simple answer (and maybe most likely) is just that you use what’s available; and crossbows as an item cost more. (What Tod said in the video basically)
My point was basically that IF we are to consider crossbow men working in a team, they might have some advantages that bow men do not.
I’m just speculating here though.
I was also wondering (and if anybody knows) whether the cost of crossbow men is stated as pr individual, or could be pr unit (of two most likely)?
Great video. Thank you. I’ve wondered about this for decades.
I’m really happy I found this channel. Thank you for your work gentlemen.
Fun fact. The leader of King John's crossbow men was Falkes de Breauté (Falkes being the Norman French for 'scythe', a weapon he used to kill a knight with in his youth). He brought a property in London that became known as Fox Hall, which became the name of the Borough of Vauxhall. The logo of Vauxhall cars is a gryphon holding a flag, which was the personal banner of Falkes.
My etymology hurts!
looks like vauxhall's marketing dept. are getting really sneaky beaky these days.
Becky Sand Ahh. So you saw through it, did you?
Wait! So it went from fox to vaux within the lifetime of mr. Falkes? That rocks!
Excellent comment. A good example of how names originate.
"I'm pushing it for six, six and a half inches." - Tod 2019
Sorry, Tod. Had to be done.
What a monster. That's an order of magnitude more than I can push for
jeremy mcadam Boi...
@@jeremymcadam7400 Try to push harder. Six and a half inches really isn't that much....
“The efficiency is absolutely appalling.” -Tod 2019
@@LumosX Well actually it's more then most, since the average is five and a half. So statistically most if not all in this comment section is around that. But hey have all the fantasies you like :)
Really nice to have shed new light on what was no doubt common knowledge in medieval times about the practical applications unique to the crossbow and longbow. I like the idea that a crossbowman can lie in wait with his crossbow at the ready for prolonged periods without physically exhausting himself which would make for a quick and easy transition to the sword while still being relatively fresh. Also the value in being able to be used in confined spaces such as on ships, etc. I never honestly thought of that before. Thanks for making this series!
great comparison. Thanks for posting such a good interview
There is currently a nice little crossbow exhibition at the German History Museum in Berlin (Deutsches Historisches Museum)
under the header: The Crossbow - Terror and Beauty (Die Armbrust - Schrecken und Schönheit).
It's less about its use in war but for hunting, as a status symbol and it's long term importance for the self-conception for the (urban) citizenry in Germany (even after it had become obsolete as a weapon of war). The highlights are two crossbows related to emperor Maximilian I (who seems to have been an excellent shot and took quite an interest on crossbows down to the technical details).
@Owen Lee Crossbows were used by the war capable free men who were obligated to protect their city if necessary. Which is a privilege, really, and came with social prestige. Every German city, town, or village still has at least one "Schützenbruderschaft", literally: marksmen brotherhood. The oldest of these date back to the 12th century. They were basically organized militias. They stopped being relevant for actual warfare when all rulers started to rely on mercenaries (~ 16th century), but the tradition is still alive today.
@Owen Lee The German free cities (Frei Reichsstädte) were entities separate from the feudal territorial states and were proud of it. An important part of this was the ability of the urban citizens (Bürger) to defend their freedom leading to a system of a general city militia including every citizen able to carry arms. The crossbow was the weapon for the higher echelons of citizenry while the lower ranks mainly carried polearms (Spießbürger). Crossbows were expensive to produce and to maintain but they were ideal for the defense of fortified places (i.e. cities). Bürger (urban citizen) is derived from Burg (castle). The crossbowmen organized in guilds that had a high reputation because they consisted of the city elite. Training and shooting contests of these guilds thus became public events allowing the city elites to present themselves both in their wealth and in their importance for the common defense. The crossbow thus became a symbol of the pride of urban citizens of their independence and their willingness and ability to defend it. This symbolism survived the actual combat use of the weapon itself and crossbow shooter guilds and their contests lasted up to the 19th century parallel to the (gun) shooting clubs. Only slowly did it turn from a cherished tradition to mere sports (as it is today).
Yep, there is a pretty detailed depiction of a pavise-crossbowman on the facade of a medieval building just 100 meters from where I live. I live in Konstanz, southern Germany.
Maximilian owned every hunting weapon ever, conventional and exceptional, practical or challenging. His collection alone provides an index of history's hunting weapons up to his point.
As a french young man, I sadly heard about longbows in Agincourt....
I am deeply thankful for the video though. It was awesome quality content !!
Imagine being English and sadly hearing about longbows in Patay.
There is no silver bullet.
Viva la France
thank you for showing this reload action. you have provided us great evidence to debate how long it takes to actually do this. most archery videos cut out this "boring" part. i really appreciate you showing and focusing on it.
So awesome. Great video guys.
"A serious weight" Dude can pull my own weight in a second..... That guy is absolutely massive.
Crossbows are better weapons when you need to minimize your exposure to the enemy. Ambushing, taking cover behind walls/shields, etc.
yea , they were good for castle or fortress defence as you can hide while reloading and being rushed isn't an issue.
And you could shoot them pretty much all day.
@@gingerbill128 Also for sieges from behind a heavy shield with a stand. You might not have the height advantage, but you can shoot back at the defenders.
this program is only focusing on rate of fire. i would like to look at the differences of ballistics and Armour piercing characteristics.
I love the calmness of these videos, combined with the sound of all the birds.
So nice to see two gentlemen talking and not trying to one up each other. Well done.
This channel has quickly became my favourite lately😁
Remember the books on medieval warfare I used to read in my youth. They usually said things like "knights needed a big crane to get on a horse" and " crossbows where for shooting through armour". 🙄 Love these experiments.
The only medieval weapon that will penetrate a breast plate is a warhammer with a spike. with the hammer-end, given that you have a good hit, you will not penetrate it but you will deform it to an extend that it shatters the ribcage which will most likely kill the target, or at the very least disable him.
There were documented cases of crossbows going through the shield, through the arm and into the chest.
@@lordpardus7348 The better made object will defeat the poorer made object. A well made crossbow, bolt and arrowhead with high quality metal will defeat poorly made inferior metal armor, and vice-versa.
@@cynthiabauer5763 The problem is not how something was made. The problem is that those who are of English decent say that their self long bow (which had a draw of about 100 lbs) was an uber weapon. It was not. Not only Crossbow had plenty of advantages. Turkish/Scythian bows were infinitely superior.
@@lordpardus7348 They were recurve bows and they were superior only because of the style of use, namely mounted archery. East Europe and Asia is a much, much larger place than England or the battlefields in France where longbows were used. This meant that archers and armies had to travel much larger distances to battles and therefore their armies were mostly mounted. English armies were mostly not due to the cost of good horses which most soldiers couldn't afford. The trees in Turkey are also much different to the huge straight grained yews we have/had in the UK which allowed for huge 6ft longbows to be used. Just as the crossbow and the English longbow/warbow were both amazing for what they did, so was the recurve bow for what it's intended purpose was. Saying that, it'd be interesting to see who would win, a trained english warbowman or a mounted Turkish/Hungarian/Mongol archer.
Another excellent video, thanks so much Tod!
180 pound draw weight? Good god! I had a 45lb recurve as a teenager and thought that was hard to pull back. So that destroys the movie myth with the scenes of the archers drawing back their bows and waiting for the order to fire. It’s almost all one motion : drawback as you raise the bow get on target and release.
For a serious bowman, you essentially build the bow into your body. Very interesting.
That upper back curvature is crazy, it must've led to some seriously big back muscles!
Comments: WHY DIDN'T YOU SHOOT THE BREASTPLATE
Tod and his crew: because that's the next video, silly.
Such test are expensive, because often the arrows get damnage, or is at least difficult to get them back to use.
Skeletons found here in Britain of Medieval Longbowmen found deformed or Damaged Bone Structure in the Arm and Shoulder.
Bow is Life!
Them cats were optimized son.
@Trip Gil Funnily enough, that's American slang
Not damaged. Their bone structure had realigned due to the massive strength in some muscles. Sure they would be gimps when older but...
Yeah I want to see an xray of Joe.
fascinating videos guys - thanks for that - informative and intriguing discussion
Years ago I read a fascinating article comparing longbows to crossbows written by a physicist who also did historical reenactment. He did a bunch of calculations based on draw length, draw weight, length of the bow limbs, weight of the projectiles, and the materials used in the construction, basically as many variables as he could consider to calculate the efficiency of each. When he ran all the numbers he found that to match a 150 pound longbow with a 30 inch draw you need to have a crossbow that drew over a 1000 pounds at 6 inches. If I can find the article again I'll post a link to it for anyone who is interested.
The chinese used teams of three, with three xbows, two spanning and one shooter constantly trading off fired for loaded. Very aggressive and was devastating to the enemy.
That's great, but if they were bow users, you'd have three archers firing down range. Of course it's easier to train the three crossbowman than the three archers.
Out on the grouse moor the beaters used to drive the birds onto the guns.
The shooter has two 12bores and a loader lying between his legs. After he has emptied both barrels he drops his expensive gun to be caught by his loader.
The timing should be good enough that there are two guns in the air at the same time. One going up and the other coming down.
@@miketrice533 you could give a peasant with 60 IQ a demonstration of how to use a crossbow and a few hours of training and have a decent enough levee crossbowman, whilst an archer would require years of training. Maybe some slight exaggerations but crossbows are definitely easier to use, so fielding a team of 3 crossbowmen is probably easier than 3 archers
@@miketrice533 how long could you keep firing with a bow tho. With a crossbow, you have two people drawing for you with winches which is probably less tiring than pulling back 120 lbs. With longbows, you probably have 7-10 devestating voleys before your arm gets tired. Crossbows can keep going for hours probably. I guess it depends on the situation. If its a long drawn out siege, then crossbows are probably the way to go. Arow slits are probably limited anyways.
Itallians did the same, so probably a common tactic used whereever crossbows existed
Tod! You have become so professional! I remember when your channel was much smaller, I am happy for your success!
AWESOME COMPETITION GUYS !
KEEP ENTERTAINING US WITH GREAT HISTORICAL ANSWERS !
"You cant step out drawn"
Gods, I remember when I used to think this was possible, and then I made my first bow. It wasnt even that powerful and I could barely draw and aim it. Learnt a lot of things that day.
then you must be really weak. im a broke fat poor old guy and I can happily walk around with a 70-80lb bow drawn
@Jiyu Nope, not compound, a kid can walk around with an 80lb compound, I have a traditional hunnic recurve with 72lb draw weight and its not difficult even for me...
Tuareg Akavir I’m a large guy myself and I find it very easy to use my 70 lb COMPOUND BOW to take deer and wild game. However, the long bow and take down bows are much different and it might be easy to hold 70lbs for a second but for 6 seconds at a time repeatedly, it gets hard
@@chasecalvert6227 so you still say it cant be done even though I already stated I have a NOT COMPOUND traditional 72lb recurve bow and I can do it easily. its funny :D maybe get a traditional bow and try it before you comment again... for us weak modern guys a 160lb would really be impossible to draw and hold but there were times when people were able to do it easily, even with much heavier bows, the strongest I know about is 260lb that is in use today by a hungarian guy leading a nomad life in the caucasus, but there are plenty of ottoman and chinese bows documented in the 200-240 lb range and having some of them in museums today... not being able to draw a 70lb bow for extended time just means you are weak. really weak. (btw, I had a 14yo kid shooting 2x10 with this 72lb bow...)
@@chasecalvert6227 this the guy that claims that he knows a guy lifting 2000 lbs in another comment chain, even though the person he says can do it have a personal record at 500 lbs.
He also claims that mongols fired 200+ lbs from horseback and faster than this guy in the video, when his only source claims that chinese military considered 80 lbs enough draw weight sufficient, not even referring to the mongols.
He is just full of shit.
Oh hell yes!
This is so awesome!
11:52 So true! I thought doing heavy weighted rows would help me with the draw weight of my bow. Both actions feel COMPLETELY different and it doesn't transfer over into archery whatsoever! Lesson learned the hard way.
Best is rubber bands as a substitute
Awesome guy! Awesome video!
"You should be able to shoot a 100 pounds no problem"
And here I am, sweating after using my 40lb
You were quite fast at reloading that crossbow, quicker than most others I've seen doing it here on youtube
My new goal is to buy one of your windlass crossbows. Take me a bit to save up for it, but I'm going to do it. Your work is excellent.
I had taken many amateur classes and found my own style. It wasn't till I started watching experts and historians that I understood how important form and execution is over base strength. It's so important to keep learning and I appreciate these kind of videos for reminding me
At around 07:30, the Slo-Mo shot of Joe releasing a bullseye bound arrow was superb, wonderful how one small bird flew over him and one flew from the target area just as the arrow arrived, that would have been impossible to predict!
“Everyone should be able to pull 100 lb”
Me: struggles with my 40lb recurve: “I am weak”.
I like Joe, he's always so calm and friendly.
I've seen Gibbs around the internet, good making vids with him!
If the crossbow was the sniper rifle, the longbow was the machine gun. Both having their situational uses and both excellent machines of war. Great video, you guys!
From a hunters perspective the biggest advantage of a crossbow is the ability to wait at full draw for the target to come into range. In the quiet of a wood Bows are loud when you draw them.
@incinerator950 Really don't know what bows you have heard...But the last 10 years have produced the most fastest and quiet hand drawn compound bows ever.
@@MrADjam5 Not only in the last years, i use an 85lb wood bow , so basically an average medieval hunting bow, and the only sound it makes is at release. I don't know what kind of bows he's using.
The only noise a bow makes is the sound of the arrow moving over the hand and the bow. You can reduce that noise to pretty much nothing with a thin piece of leather.
And of course a fairly quiet noise when releasing, but with heavy hunting arrows and some string silencers that noise is really quiet.
ashbow archer That relative quite is quite loud to people in a heightened state of awareness. I don’t know how much experience you have being hunted by other humans in a war zone but I can tell you that the tiny creak of a string moving in the notches as it is drawn would be plenty loud to draw my full attention.
@@boden8138 If your string creaks in the notches it's breaking and you should unstring the bow immediately
Great video. Just added 1 more subscription. Keep up the excellent work! Now I want to try out a 160lb bow...
This was awesome! Thanks
I would like to see how his strongest crossbow fares against a breastplate. Wasn't there one with well over 1,000 lbs of tension? And I remember Joe saying in a previous video, that he could shoot a 200 lb bow--just not for very long. I'd like to see how the highest tension bows and crossbows would fare against real armor. This would really give us a sense of the limits of either the armor or the ranged weapons.
As always, wonderful videos Tod! Thanks for taking the time to create such incredible content, I hope there is much more to come!
Richard the lion heart, an elite Knight was killed by a pot boy with a cross bow.
Interesting vid. enjoyed it
I love these videos because there's no fluff it's just honest experimentation and humble conversation also I fixed my caps lock key
great vid, very enjoyable, i've started shooting a 35lb traditional bow with wooden arrows, thinking about 160lb+ is making my arms hurt already.
10 secs in and I knew I could like this for the content ;)
Came for cool medieval facts, stayed for the chill vibes exuded by these two lovely people.
This was fantastic I feel like I learned a lot thank u.
Most boys started shooting a bow around eight. Heavy bow training started around 14 or 15. Every village with more than 100 residents had to be able to muster a certain number of archers should the lord of the land call them up for duty. Professional war archers were more specialized. And had years of training and practice. Bow were cheep and easy to mass produce. War bows took a bit longer to make but were still fairly easy to make. Another secret that is little known was that a professional war archer carried 2 bows. One heavy war bow and one lighter draw weight combat bow. Both with the same draw length but different draw weights. As they practiced constantly they could transition very quickly for the situation. Mind you a professional war archer was not your everyday archer. They had different training techniques and skill sets including close quarters combat skills. With and with out a bow.
well ive been considering learning how to shoot a bow for a little while now. and you boys just made up my mind. thanks
now i just need some money lol
Go for it.
An advice from my experience: buy a bow with a fairly small drawweight, so you can learn learn technique properly and practice longer. It will be less frustrating.
What a great comparison!
Great documentary....
Mr. Gibbs is as humble as he is skilled.
I would like to see some of Joe shooting long range and separately moving (transverse and charging) targets!
Great interview and perspective thanks from down under
I searched for a bow on Amazon because of this scare sickness that’s going around and now RUclips is showing me archery videos up and down on my suggested videos list. Subtle. Really subtle silicone valley!
I'm not saying the warbowman was holding back, he seemed to be taking his time thru the entire process
Like he said, he'd rather take his time and place his shots rather than bang them all out in the shortest amount of time. Accuracy over speed.
The deadliest arrows in the world don't mean squat if they miss.
Five reps @ 80% of max. Just saying.
There is an old Army maxim: Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Sure he could have probably been moving faster to snatch up the arrows or fit them to the string but rushing inevitably leads to mistakes. Mistakes require more time to correct.
@@TRohrich its only true as long as you are untrained... a good hun or mongol archer was deadly precise at insane speed with similarly powerful bows. this is a modern recreation but just watch this guy shooting from a horseback ruclips.net/video/3i58R9rw8q4/видео.html
Another advantage of the crossbow is the firing positions you can shoot from, and they kinda mention that. If you're waiting in ambush, then you can have a few crossbowmen laying in bushes and firing from them, whereas bowmen need to pop out of cover to engage.
I really like the comparison here, and it's a fair comparison.
fantastic video, again. 10/10
I came here for the historical military discussion, but stayed for Joe's forearms
Are there many archery clubs around the UK that supply and teach with traditional longbows...? To me, that'd be way more interesting than using modern archery equipment
the English Warbow Society are the main ones
The archery club I was a member of in Bristol ( until I damaged the tendons in my hand) had a large contingent of Longbow and barebow ( Recurve bows without the gadgets ) shooters. Just call around your local area, you will find them.
there are still some easterrn bows that are more effective and were used by Poles, Mongols and some others . Shorter, lower draw power needed and yet same if not better results. Less dmg to body
Master crafted wooden bows are expensive, if you are starting out give a chance to moderns without any attachments (they call it barebow). You could modify it to look like wood. I shoot recurve barebow, it's a lot of fun. An alternative is for you to make your own wooden bow, they call this selfbow, then it's very cheap but don't expect much from self bows unless you study the art of bowyery and become a master yourself.
@@cynthiabauer5763 I know absolutely nothing about modern archery, but I was thinking it'd be cool if there were clubs that owned a variety of bows of different draw weights so club members could progress to more powerful bows without having to spend massive amounts of money on bows. I assume most of the focus of modern archery is on precise target shooting with low draw weight bows, and exception to that would probably be bow hunting where accuracy and draw weight matters. I like the idea of the focus being on both draw weight progression and accuracy
The rate of fire and the amount of training required to become proficient only a couple of the factors to be considered. Range, penetration, terrain, ETC would all be factors to consider. From a fixed defensive position, I.E. castle, the crossbow make more sense. Being able to reload from cover...as Richard I learned the hard way.
What a humble and nice personality Joe have.
Good video !
Very interesting video once more! The whole internet was waiting for some serious content about archery! Thanks! About the mandatory training for young lads in England, most of them were farmers I suppose, and farmers for the nature of their job are way more tough than nowdays people. In Liguria, my region here in Italy, until 50 years ago, was normal, for common man to transport 50 kg (110 pounds) on their shoulder, up and down from the hills, and the half (25 kg, 55 pounds) for women and kids. I suppose this were true all over, so that heavy bows could have been way easier to being held by common farmers without as much training as we need today. Abour crossbow man, maybe they were somehow specialized in mechanics as well, so they can take care of their own equipment and being this a rare combo (bravery and mechanical skills) they were paied very well? I don't know much about crossbows so I'm just guessing. Thanks again and keep it up!
I imagine an english bowman would sound exactly like him.
Because... because that's what he is👀
To some extent, if they came from the same part of England as he does. Accents vary a lot over surprisingly small distances in England even today. During the time in which military archery was common in England, the variation was even larger with numerous regional dialects let alone accents. Also, an English archer of that time would have been speaking middle English, which is very different to contempory English. Early modern English at the end of that period of time, but that's still fairly different to contempory English. The great vowel shift would still have been ongoing for most if not all of that period of time, so that would be another significant difference.
Actually they would have. 60-80% of the English army in the middle ages would've spoken with the rhotic 'r' and 'West country' accent. It wasn't until 260ish years ago the accents changed as the Scots joined the union which affected the northern accent and other areas were changed due to imitating local authorities who were imitating their noblemen bosses.
They would be barely intelligible to us. They were still speaking Middle English.
ye, just imagine this guy with mail coat and a mace in the belt xD
Late coming to the party but enjoyed this very much.
Hugely useful video. I'm new to war bow shooting myself. I currently have a 135lb English long bow and it's tough and has taken me a while to reach that weight. The idea of a 160 or even 200lb bow is just mental.