@@davidchu2001 No he doesn't. The beef was over a long time ago. They're certainly not friends, but they respect each other. You know who Knee really hates? Kkokkoma
1. Dude's at the tournament, got some shit to do 2. tier lists are so arbitrary, anyway. I feel like everyone just navigates this topic by feel. If it wasn't for characters like s4 Feng or launch day Leroy, that was obviously beating every other character in every possible way, you'll have to make a ph.d level of research to truly prove that one or five characters are undoubtedly stronger/weaker than the rest of the cast. Knee mentions one tiniest factor in the game - input lag - and the "tops" are already re-shuffled, in his opinion. But there are also matchups, different level of play, who's your opponent, different stages, different controller types, different styles of play (yeah, a character can be played more than a one way), etc, etc - so many factors to consider, and which put the character in a extremely specific context. Why even bother? I think, detailed tier lists only exist to give us a small dopamine hit, when we see one character higher/lower then the other. In situation like with launch day Leroy, yeah, you should know, that you'd better pick him, if you want to win, but it's not a "list".
@@jeiantales936 just a throwaway comment dude, everyone knows mainman likes to make half hour long videos on the smallest tea of tekken. also there are some very obvious and apparent characters that deserve their high or low spot, but knee definitely knows his DVJ pick was controversial and might want to slightly elaborate on it?
I also can't blame Knee for not elborating on his picks when it's some random question at an event. But yeah I would like him to explain why at some point.
As others have said, phidx made a video about this too. He says that knee probably put dvjin in bottom 5 because he is very complicated to use in tournament setting... Which makes sense. I mean akuma is also hard to use.. but when you see players drop the fadc combo it ultimately just works as a "mixup" and go for more d3 or jumping mixups
Akuma- cheap Pedo character with absurd damage. Devil Jin right now- piss damage and nothing useful beside EWGF or hellsweep, Jin Kazuya Heihachi got both of those 2.
TMM unable to understand that they're at an busy & crowded event and Gerald translating everything necessary in a pinch. TMM: *WHy iSn'T hE eXpLAiniNg?!*
I think he is reacting this way less because he expected Knee to give an hour long explanation, and more because it is a seemingly left field, odd ball pick and he is reasonably curious to pick Knee's brain about it
At first I was happy with the nerfs but now since I play him as a side character I think they went too far with him. He requires so much just to get good damage.
@@doomdesire3460 he’s always been hard to use… the nerfs resulted in him getting less damage over all. wall combo damage nerf, uf4 no follow up is also…. a… damage…. Nerf….
He doesn't have time to think, so he just says whatever comes to his mind. He could potentially change half of this list if he had time and was doing it on his terms.
Devil Jin Bottom 5, glad Knee called it. Devil Jin has the Worst Execution to Reward Ratio in the Game. His Inputs require Major Precision inputs. ELECTRIC, iWS, Wavedash into iWS, On Normal Hit, He has the Worst Mids in the Game, 24 DmG and you lose your turn due Pushback (B4, UF4, FF2) as well as the Worst Combo Damage in the Game. As a result HellSweep is very very overrated now. DVJ cannot get any Real damage without taking Major Risks. Block his Hellsweep ONCE and he dies. iWS 2 locked behind Execution and still Unsafe at -12 for 50 Combo Dmg.. if you can even perform the Move Reliably.
PhiDX was giving his point of view if you're interested react to that MainMan. Also, I think one of the reasons, imo, is that his main low is unparriable. That skews risk reward in high Level play when it comes to lows. Also his Emo-Man has significant range which could create an Akuma like low-mid 50/50. And his DF2. Also Noctis has high dmg on short and extended combos comparatively. Yet the real reasons could only be explained by Knee.
@@yoch5383 high level tekken dvj cant crack an opponent that easily. No good damaging lows besides broken plate which is 17f at -12 and hellsweep. ch tools like df2 and b4 is somewhat unreliable because b4 is slow and df2 is steppable. B4 is also unreliable as an oki tool cause sometimes it still doesnt hit grounded opponents when it should. uf4 nerf and using ff2 as a replacement isnt the same. laser scraper just isnt that good anymore compared to the homing tools other characters have now. dvj just requires too much work even though he has good tools that require too much fundamentals and an amazing defense to compensate.
@@yoch5383 No plus on block moves, no safe power mid for 50/50, terrible ws2 that requires tons of work to get even like 60 damage, etc. He also does less damage then hei kaz and Jin, doesn't really have useable strings or anything like that. The only thing he has is above average poking for a Mishima, but Jin has him beat in that regard too. U4 is dumb, but the crushing is inconsistent and on block it's horrible if your opponent knows what he's doing.
@@yoch5383 You say that & yet you're a yellow / orange ranker that plays Lei. You opinion means nothing. I'm up there with Tekken Gods & Tekken God Primes.
Some other Key Tools that DVJ lacks compared to other characters no Magic 4/B1, No +Frames Pressure, No Basic Hopkick (U4 -34 lol), Worst Orbital (UF4), Worst Rage Drive, Poor Tracking on Most Moves, Weakest Mids in the Game to kill his 50/50 Game, Lowest Combo Damage in the game, Limited Moveset makes him Predictable.
@@edgelord121 I do agree with Knee. At the highest level, DJ is bottom 5. Did you see how Qudans went from Grand final after Grand final to not even get top64 ?
Who understands Tekken better Frame or Knee? 🤔🤣 4:30 this I disagree with. Amazing ch launchers? Dvj? Df 2 is...'amazing'? Compared to whose movelist does Dvj have 'amazing' ch launchers? To me seems terrible. (Not to mention all the characters that have normal df2 launchers no ch needed)
Df2 is good but calling it amazing is a stretch considering the low reward on normal hit and super slow recovery on whiff, and the next best option is i17 which is nice on normal hit, but has even worse recovery on whiff.
agreed, his df2 is really mediocre and linear and his 50 50 has become very lopsided in terms of risk reward. having dumb mid ch launchers that do it all like being only minimal frames on block or tracking both sides is infinitely stronger than having a risky 50 50 which isn't really that high of a reward anymore especially if you don't get wall
I think in pro play mishimas are just hard because everyone knows the characters and devil jin being a bit weak now maybe just feels hard to play with the burden of execution
to be fair, when kingjae heard a controversial pick like noctis he should've just asked "why noctis?" Lost opportunity but I imagine there was a lot going on at the time
For Noctis just watch him vs CBM in ATL (forgot which day) and you'll see why he considers Noctis is at the top. At the right hands Noctis is really good.
@@zachmac3824 The reason why I said it is because not a lot of people think he is viable in tournaments. You don't see a lot of Noctis players in Top 16s or Top 8s. CBM on the other hand, took Noctis to the grand finals against Knee beating his Akuma, reset, and then closely losing to Knee's Feng.
If one of the best players in the game says it because he’s had a few tough matches against him, I’m willing to believe him And also that one Noctis getting close to winning that one tourney against knee
I can hear Devil Jin. If you consider how strong he used to be, then yeah you can argue Knee case. I mean, season 1 and 2 Qudans was a beast, playing grand final after grand final. But after that, even him couldn’t win with him no more. They litteraly removed his best moves for high level games
Consistency, since you can't always rely on execution since you are just a human. If you can do something similar/close to high execution characters while being simple is a good boost in consistency.
I agree with TMM on this, I hate when they say some characters are TOP or BOT without explaining anything on why they are in that. Not everyone thinks or sees the same way they do.
@@jeiantales936 Cheap ? I’ve only Qudans, Arslan, Ulsan and Take play these characters to the highest level. Knee tried Kazumi but he couldn’t win anything. Harada seems not like the « strategy style » and those characters were played really strategically. My guess is that’s why they got nerfed. They didn’t like the way they were played
He is correct. The characters that he actually said are top 5 are actually top 5. It is just that most people have not unlocked their entire potential. In online ranked, the supposedly top 5, except Akuma, that most people say are top 5 are relatively easy to play.
Angel was seen as one of the worst characters in TTT2 or even worst character in the game even with her ewgf. And that was a game where launchers were op, so ewgf doesn’t automatically clear you from being a bottom tier.
I think noctis is top 5 for him because he has pretty good Tools CH launcher, good frames, low pokes with amazing range, most of his lows cant be low parried, sidestep is harder against him, very high damage in Combos, safe wall splat mid, a lot crushing move, df1... This list never ends.. 😂
I think for a thing like Devil Jin it could be as simple as he is the worst Mishima and so there is no reason to play him. That doesn't make him "bottom" per say, but nobody else does what the bears do. The bear got tools like no other for the simple fact that they are, in fact, bears. Bears top tier.
The edgy Kaz main who hates DVJ , getting hit with reality. The best players like Knee and Arslan rate DVJ as low tier character. TMM was always wrong about DVJ after he got hit with the big nerfs. He just took forever to understand and realize it. Idiot TMM 🤦
In the first Tekken Talk there was a moment when Max said he thinks DJ is out because Jin has some of his moves, and Michael Murray said "I love that character, Devil Jin, so who knows..." So yeah, fingers crossed.
Nah hes cutt for sure, they need to make space for new bullshit characters plus a few from tekken 7 carried over, the roster is already bloated they gonna have to cut characters.
@@steponmeplease6217 man I'd be happy with just getting uf4 and keeping all the other nerfs, maybe make f1+2 at most -14 so only *some* characters can launch it, -13 would be balanced too but it might be asking for too much lol.
The only reason pros don’t ever mention Jin or play Jin is because they can’t even use him to his full potential. In tekken 8 they will definitely not use him after those ridiculous, unnecessary, and unfair nerfs. Everything but the parry and zen-1+2. Why did Bandai take that happiness from me. Stole that from me. Killed that from me.
@@cypi6210 nah man come on. Jin’s match up win rate in the entire world is one of the lowest. So it clearly shows that he requires skills and hard work to master and not just a spam character
@@ahmadrezaie4008 I smell such huge bullshit. He has so much tools for everything you don't need brain to be strong Jin, you need however hands and brain to become Master Jin player like Devilster.
Gotta love TMM never missing an opportunity to harp on how OP Jin is despite having to also add the disclaimer that you have to be perfection personified in order for him to actually be considered OP in practice as opposed to just on paper.
Yeah, every character can be OP if you just have the right skill set of using the charactet so not a valid argument there.. Jin is literally bottom 2 in the rankings.
@@tehZuko yes it’s absolutely a knock. A character can’t be OP if the stipulation of them being OP requires you to basically be a god at the game. In order for a character to be OP the reward you get has to vastly outweigh the effort put in to to achieve said reward. This seems to be a concept that TMM has a really hard time grasping despite the fact that he doesn’t even play Jin that often because of how goddamn hard he is.
Let's hope they balance the characters better this time, but also keep their identities. Who tf wants to see the same 5-7 characters in Top 8 every time? Make a hard to use character like Bryan hard rewarding ok, but also make a strong mix up based character like Kuni less damaging, IMO.
Us devil Jin mains have been saying it since the beginning that devil Jin is trash and the worst character in the game after season 5 but haters will always be haters. Even in season 4 devil Jin was only mid tier with no tournament presence and can’t compete with the rest of the cast.
I'd argue devil Jin has the worst mids in the entire game, none of them are counter hit launchers and any of them that are even somewhat rewarding are very unsafe. this makes his electric WAY worse in the neutral because there is no big consequence for trying to duck or step it.
Not very many reasons to not duck Devil Jin at this point lol. At range 2.5-3 Dj is not scary at all. Uf 4 no knockdown resets neutral massive damage nerf. There is literally no point to play him over Kazuya unless you genuinely like the character.
With Chloe it's not necessarily about the frames, it's an aspect but you can actually whirl your way around that a bit. The real issue she has is that she linear as hell, she has poor reach on a lot of her key moves and her mixups (remember, she is supposed to be mixup heavy character) for the most just aren't that good. The MU Knowledge aspect is a fact, most players I run into barely seem to know anything about her, but if you run into players who at least have some experience against her, they'll blow you up and you have to switch your playstyle for a 180°
As I've been saying forever zafina is wildly overatted, just look at aslan seems he's mainly playing kunimitsu at Japan evo. Also ps4 has much worse online than pc and thats probably why input delay aside.
Ps4 as of 4 months ago when i last played is still worse than pc by a long shot. Ps4 5 bar feels like pc solid 3 bar to me. Seeing knee take this into consideration is interesting and i agree with the idea
I think Knee is saying that Noctis is pretty good for his fundamental tools and defensive tools rather than his overall kit being broken af. Extremely good whiff punishing, with a mix of unparryable movesets similar to Kunimitsu, and good keepout. His moves are pretty scary if you ignore the linearity, and ff+1+2 is deceptively good since it tracks well,. He still has the emo-man at the wall, and he can mix it up with the chidori (b+2, delayed 1+2, is 14 frames, and xafe on block). His FC mixup is also fairly okay. Unlike Kuni who recieved nerfs to her FC mixup due to 1,1 being unsafe, Noctis retains the wallsplatting safe mid Playing him/playing against him now, I feel like I've underestimated Noctis for the longest time since I always beat Noctis players before with zero problem, but good Noctis players were always the scariest
There's not much to know compared to other characters, if you know how to punish u4 and some of his other very few knowledge checks you're basically good.
Let's see, who understand the game better, knee who is one of the best if not THE best player to ever touch the game. Has Tekken God Omega rank with every character in the game, OR john Smith. All of his picks seem right, I agree devil jin is an odd choice, bit I assume knee has his reasons, probably if he's talking about tournament play mishimas are very hard to play compared to other characters. Perhaps this is why he names devil jin.
Come on MM, Knee is way more knowledgeable than you on this topic. He can actually play these characters at the highest level. Did you see how much tournaments he won with Steve ? How course he is going to put him top5
I agree with Knee when he said that Devil Jin is bottom 5, He used to be godlike 3 years ago but after the nerfs he got and the new top tiers nowadays he became forgotten.
@@imissmyshots9735 “You’re delusional for agreeing with the greatest tekken players opinion, the player who understands the game better than anyone, because I personally don’t agree with his opinion” you sure he’s the delusional one?
@@averydistinctusername1635 Does being the best actually mean you understand the most? I was at one point top 2000 Dota player in Europe and I literally couldnt predict what would be good based on patch notes if you put gun to my head. I had no understanding of the game at all. I knew my role, my characters and I knew my gameplan and thats it. I didnt even read what abilities did, once I played the character, I memorized it and just thought I knew..
To be fair to the man, English isn't his strong suit. His videos can be very technical when he's talking in Korean. Check out his subtitled T8 trailer reactions
Devil Jin is just really bad imo compared to characters toned down since the beginning like LC or Gigas Actually I tried to play some DVJ recently, oh man he's so hard to get wins with, his mids aren't a menace considering how bad his lows are (Yea I'm saying his hellsweep is bad) doesnt give oki if you do cd4,4, doesnt give oki if you do wall travel combo, doesnt give good dmg unless you hit a wall He has EWGF but that's basically it, I find it way easier with Kazuya because of how many KND and safe power mids he has along with his counter utility compared to DVJ Then I can see why he's putting Claudio in his top 5 for PS4 especially because of how effective his mix up game is when he locked you on the wall, and considering the input lag, there's almost 1 frame of delay added compared to PC which makes it probably harder to block supposedly reactable lows in ss4 and b1, respectively i20 for the low and i18 for the mid, also if you consider lower risk lows like db4,3 and magic df3,1 which are respectively i15 for the low and i14 for the mid yeah, and as TMM mentionned, d2,2 with starburst, and probably fuzzy guarding in general vs him is hard I think it's not bad considering him top5 on PS4 and maybe like top10 on PC
Calling Dvj hellsweep bad is a stretch imo, but ignoring the wall factor kazuya's is better 100%. And in s5 the wall factor isn't nearly as big as s4 too.
I rank DJ as a mid tier, I don't memorize all the frames on his moves but my brother plays DJ and Jin every time we play vs each other that I know how to punish almost every move sing Gigas and Eddy.
this weird list just goes to show how pointless tier lists are. Just because pros have inhuman reflexes that make them better than most people, doesn't mean they have objective takes imo
Ps will never have the same input lag as pc because you can optimize so much on pc (render qeue, frametimes, custom drivers) I still dont get why they play tournaments on ps and not pc
He's saying Devil Jin is bottom 5 in the hopes that Namco buff him again so his friend Qudans can return to the pro scene
Oh wow where that story come from ?
how thoughtful of him, he should put armor king and dragunov in top 5 so they’ll get nerf cause he hate jdcr
They had to remove him from T7 to get people ready for his removal in T8
lol
@@davidchu2001 No he doesn't. The beef was over a long time ago. They're certainly not friends, but they respect each other. You know who Knee really hates? Kkokkoma
TMM: Can you explain your reasonings?
Knee: Will you shut up, hella scrupman?
ههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههههه
7:20
One of the most well-timed twitch notifications of all time
"Feng, Gouki, MainmanSwe"
MASKU
Masku
Feels like Knee dont acknowledge Kuma or Lars as characters anymore, so he dont even mention them in bottom 5
Or he knows the Bears are simply GOD tier. They are above even the S tier characters. Truly unstoppable.
he doesnt mention lars bcuz lars is secretly s tier and secret pick.
lars is definelty worse than devil jin
LMFAOOOOOO😂😂😂😂😂😂
well, you see
"You play Lars? Please stop. Change character."
I love how your brain started rebooting when you heard him say Noctis
When mainman elaborates more on knee's picks more than knee himself
1. Dude's at the tournament, got some shit to do
2. tier lists are so arbitrary, anyway. I feel like everyone just navigates this topic by feel.
If it wasn't for characters like s4 Feng or launch day Leroy, that was obviously beating every other character in every possible way, you'll have to make a ph.d level of research to truly prove that one or five characters are undoubtedly stronger/weaker than the rest of the cast.
Knee mentions one tiniest factor in the game - input lag - and the "tops" are already re-shuffled, in his opinion. But there are also matchups, different level of play, who's your opponent, different stages, different controller types, different styles of play (yeah, a character can be played more than a one way), etc, etc - so many factors to consider, and which put the character in a extremely specific context. Why even bother?
I think, detailed tier lists only exist to give us a small dopamine hit, when we see one character higher/lower then the other. In situation like with launch day Leroy, yeah, you should know, that you'd better pick him, if you want to win, but it's not a "list".
why would he explain, hes fckn standing, might be ambush interviewed. ?? can u think for once
@@jeiantales936 just a throwaway comment dude, everyone knows mainman likes to make half hour long videos on the smallest tea of tekken. also there are some very obvious and apparent characters that deserve their high or low spot, but knee definitely knows his DVJ pick was controversial and might want to slightly elaborate on it?
I also can't blame Knee for not elborating on his picks when it's some random question at an event. But yeah I would like him to explain why at some point.
As others have said, phidx made a video about this too. He says that knee probably put dvjin in bottom 5 because he is very complicated to use in tournament setting... Which makes sense.
I mean akuma is also hard to use.. but when you see players drop the fadc combo it ultimately just works as a "mixup" and go for more d3 or jumping mixups
Akuma- cheap Pedo character with absurd damage.
Devil Jin right now- piss damage and nothing useful beside EWGF or hellsweep, Jin Kazuya Heihachi got both of those 2.
TMM unable to understand that they're at an busy & crowded event and Gerald translating everything necessary in a pinch.
TMM: *WHy iSn'T hE eXpLAiniNg?!*
That's why he the scrupman
@@doriyahh😂
@@doriyahh lol😂
I think he is reacting this way less because he expected Knee to give an hour long explanation, and more because it is a seemingly left field, odd ball pick and he is reasonably curious to pick Knee's brain about it
THE SCRUPMAN IT IS
Devil Jin was nerfed due to tmm crying at him 24/7.
At first I was happy with the nerfs but now since I play him as a side character I think they went too far with him. He requires so much just to get good damage.
Yeah DVJ damage is trash
@@G-R-IE-IE-D he's hard to use now dmg wasn't issue
The uf4 😿
Wah wah wah wah wah DVJ op wah wah wah
@@doomdesire3460 he’s always been hard to use… the nerfs resulted in him getting less damage over all. wall combo damage nerf, uf4 no follow up is also…. a… damage…. Nerf….
He doesn't have time to think, so he just says whatever comes to his mind.
He could potentially change half of this list if he had time and was doing it on his terms.
Devil Jin Bottom 5, glad Knee called it.
Devil Jin has the Worst Execution to Reward Ratio in the Game. His Inputs require Major Precision inputs. ELECTRIC, iWS, Wavedash into iWS, On Normal Hit, He has the Worst Mids in the Game, 24 DmG and you lose your turn due Pushback (B4, UF4, FF2) as well as the Worst Combo Damage in the Game.
As a result HellSweep is very very overrated now. DVJ cannot get any Real damage without taking Major Risks. Block his Hellsweep ONCE and he dies. iWS 2 locked behind Execution and still Unsafe at -12 for 50 Combo Dmg.. if you can even perform the Move Reliably.
PhiDX was giving his point of view if you're interested react to that MainMan.
Also, I think one of the reasons, imo, is that his main low is unparriable. That skews risk reward in high Level play when it comes to lows. Also his Emo-Man has significant range which could create an Akuma like low-mid 50/50. And his DF2. Also Noctis has high dmg on short and extended combos comparatively. Yet the real reasons could only be explained by Knee.
Devil Jin requires too much work compared to other Mishimas.
Noctis is simple & has amazing whiff punishing.
That's why you see them on these lists.
Nah bro devil Jin except for double ewgf ff4 he doesn t need That much work
@@yoch5383 high level tekken dvj cant crack an opponent that easily. No good damaging lows besides broken plate which is 17f at -12 and hellsweep. ch tools like df2 and b4 is somewhat unreliable because b4 is slow and df2 is steppable. B4 is also unreliable as an oki tool cause sometimes it still doesnt hit grounded opponents when it should. uf4 nerf and using ff2 as a replacement isnt the same. laser scraper just isnt that good anymore compared to the homing tools other characters have now. dvj just requires too much work even though he has good tools that require too much fundamentals and an amazing defense to compensate.
@@yoch5383 you trippin
@@yoch5383 No plus on block moves, no safe power mid for 50/50, terrible ws2 that requires tons of work to get even like 60 damage, etc. He also does less damage then hei kaz and Jin, doesn't really have useable strings or anything like that. The only thing he has is above average poking for a Mishima, but Jin has him beat in that regard too. U4 is dumb, but the crushing is inconsistent and on block it's horrible if your opponent knows what he's doing.
@@yoch5383 You say that & yet you're a yellow / orange ranker that plays Lei. You opinion means nothing. I'm up there with Tekken Gods & Tekken God Primes.
To be fair, Fahk earned every single one of those nerfs.
So would Leroy, Marduk, zafina etc deserve it but they are all better than him..
It's Fahkumram that has paid the price for every strong DLC
Nah, Leeroy deserves it WAY MORE just for that parry alone. He can even parry lasers or item projectiles such as pistol shots
Marduk still has crazy damage tho 😅
@@Thiccbuu it's not just about damage..
Marduk df1 tracks both ways, reaches half the screen and is only -13 on block he has many insane stuff
No, Fahk definitely got overnerfed and you're happy about it because you sucked at the matchup.
The nerf on devil jin hurt him like me🤣🤣
I feel the pain bro
It was personal
I personally trust the best to ever do it when he says that DVJ is bottom 5.
Some other Key Tools that DVJ lacks compared to other characters
no Magic 4/B1, No +Frames Pressure, No Basic Hopkick (U4 -34 lol), Worst Orbital (UF4), Worst Rage Drive, Poor Tracking on Most Moves, Weakest Mids in the Game to kill his 50/50 Game, Lowest Combo Damage in the game, Limited Moveset makes him Predictable.
PhiDX did a video where he tried to explain knee's picks based on he's view. I'd recommend that.
ruclips.net/video/17wp5ggElFw/видео.html
That guy seems to know everything about Tekken but still loses
I think he's looking at it in a tournament point of view instead of casual play or online.
Lmao no shit
Noctis top 5 is still more digestible than Dvj bottom 5
@@edgelord121 I do agree with Knee. At the highest level, DJ is bottom 5. Did you see how Qudans went from Grand final after Grand final to not even get top64 ?
@@idontwant2beasoldiermama241 Go outside ☺️
Hey TMM, I think it's better if you watch PhiDX's reaction to Knee's tier list. He broke down some of the why's, pretty solid video I'd say.
Who understands Tekken better Frame or Knee? 🤔🤣
4:30 this I disagree with. Amazing ch launchers? Dvj? Df 2 is...'amazing'? Compared to whose movelist does Dvj have 'amazing' ch launchers? To me seems terrible.
(Not to mention all the characters that have normal df2 launchers no ch needed)
Dvj doesn’t have mids.
Df2 is good but calling it amazing is a stretch considering the low reward on normal hit and super slow recovery on whiff, and the next best option is i17 which is nice on normal hit, but has even worse recovery on whiff.
agreed, his df2 is really mediocre and linear and his 50 50 has become very lopsided in terms of risk reward. having dumb mid ch launchers that do it all like being only minimal frames on block or tracking both sides is infinitely stronger than having a risky 50 50 which isn't really that high of a reward anymore especially if you don't get wall
Based on my experience with Dj. He is really bad. Its a lot of work for nothing really worth it
I think in pro play mishimas are just hard because everyone knows the characters and devil jin being a bit weak now maybe just feels hard to play with the burden of execution
to be fair, when kingjae heard a controversial pick like noctis he should've just asked "why noctis?" Lost opportunity but I imagine there was a lot going on at the time
Lmaao
That face at 9:39 when Knee mention Noctis
Knee is just proving a point that tier lists are trash and a waste of time. Jokes on TMM for doing these 3 hour vids.
For Noctis just watch him vs CBM in ATL (forgot which day) and you'll see why he considers Noctis is at the top. At the right hands Noctis is really good.
You can say that for every character
following that logic panda should be a top tier character panda managed to win worlds
if you have to say "in the right hands" they're probably not as good as you think
@@zachmac3824 The reason why I said it is because not a lot of people think he is viable in tournaments. You don't see a lot of Noctis players in Top 16s or Top 8s. CBM on the other hand, took Noctis to the grand finals against Knee beating his Akuma, reset, and then closely losing to Knee's Feng.
If one of the best players in the game says it because he’s had a few tough matches against him, I’m willing to believe him
And also that one Noctis getting close to winning that one tourney against knee
I can hear Devil Jin. If you consider how strong he used to be, then yeah you can argue Knee case. I mean, season 1 and 2 Qudans was a beast, playing grand final after grand final. But after that, even him couldn’t win with him no more. They litteraly removed his best moves for high level games
Consistency, since you can't always rely on execution since you are just a human. If you can do something similar/close to high execution characters while being simple is a good boost in consistency.
I agree with TMM on this, I hate when they say some characters are TOP or BOT without explaining anything on why they are in that.
Not everyone thinks or sees the same way they do.
Knee just saying tournament wise. His tier list is aplicable only in very high level Tekken (tournament setting)
@@m-vendor OBVIOUSLY SCRUPMAN IS NOT EVEN A HIGH LEVEL MUCH EVEN TO VERY HIGH LEVEL. HES ON WHINY LEVEL
Don’t forget Kazumi and Devil Jin, they got nerfed really really hard
ah cheap characters
@@jeiantales936 Cheap ? I’ve only Qudans, Arslan, Ulsan and Take play these characters to the highest level. Knee tried Kazumi but he couldn’t win anything. Harada seems not like the « strategy style » and those characters were played really strategically. My guess is that’s why they got nerfed. They didn’t like the way they were played
I think PhiDX's explanation on why Knee mentioned Noctis makes a lot of sense as to why he put him there.
He is correct. The characters that he actually said are top 5 are actually top 5. It is just that most people have not unlocked their entire potential.
In online ranked, the supposedly top 5, except Akuma, that most people say are top 5 are relatively easy to play.
Angel was seen as one of the worst characters in TTT2 or even worst character in the game even with her ewgf. And that was a game where launchers were op, so ewgf doesn’t automatically clear you from being a bottom tier.
But EWGF got huge tracking buffs and reduced recovery frames in recent seasons
I think noctis is top 5 for him because he has pretty good Tools
CH launcher, good frames, low pokes with amazing range, most of his lows cant be low parried, sidestep is harder against him, very high damage in Combos, safe wall splat mid, a lot crushing move, df1...
This list never ends.. 😂
Is it just me or is ThemainmanSWE the only streamer to turn a 2 Min vidoe into a half an hour reaction
Just like Asmongold ;)
pretty standard tbh
Ad Revenue SWE
Is it just me or this video is not even 15 minutes long?
Not only is this nowhere near half an hour, but that practice is extremely common for content creators.
I think for a thing like Devil Jin it could be as simple as he is the worst Mishima and so there is no reason to play him. That doesn't make him "bottom" per say, but nobody else does what the bears do. The bear got tools like no other for the simple fact that they are, in fact, bears.
Bears top tier.
Claudio doesnt need to build up a bar of meter he basically gets 1 after a certain attack and his wall pressure is the best in the game
The edgy Kaz main who hates DVJ , getting hit with reality.
The best players like Knee and Arslan rate DVJ as low tier character.
TMM was always wrong about DVJ after he got hit with the big nerfs. He just took forever to understand and realize it. Idiot TMM 🤦
How are Lidia and Devil Jin bottom 5 when Asuka, the bears, Josie and Lars exist?
One can only hope that Devil Jin returns to form in Tekken 8(and yes, I whole heartedly believe he'll be back in 8 and not as dlc).
In the first Tekken Talk there was a moment when Max said he thinks DJ is out because Jin has some of his moves, and Michael Murray said "I love that character, Devil Jin, so who knows..." So yeah, fingers crossed.
Indeed
@@MegaCityGhost 🤞🏻🤞🏻
Nah hes cutt for sure, they need to make space for new bullshit characters plus a few from tekken 7 carried over, the roster is already bloated they gonna have to cut characters.
@@steponmeplease6217 man I'd be happy with just getting uf4 and keeping all the other nerfs, maybe make f1+2 at most -14 so only *some* characters can launch it, -13 would be balanced too but it might be asking for too much lol.
devil jin no mids
Maybe that was the bottom 5 from of characters people actually play
The only reason pros don’t ever mention Jin or play Jin is because they can’t even use him to his full potential. In tekken 8 they will definitely not use him after those ridiculous, unnecessary, and unfair nerfs. Everything but the parry and zen-1+2. Why did Bandai take that happiness from me. Stole that from me. Killed that from me.
I mean it’s cause Jin is perfect man. I wish they’d balance in a way that gives characters weaknesses and strengths
@@cypi6210 nah man come on. Jin’s match up win rate in the entire world is one of the lowest. So it clearly shows that he requires skills and hard work to master and not just a spam character
@@ahmadrezaie4008 I smell such huge bullshit. He has so much tools for everything you don't need brain to be strong Jin, you need however hands and brain to become Master Jin player like Devilster.
Gotta love TMM never missing an opportunity to harp on how OP Jin is despite having to also add the disclaimer that you have to be perfection personified in order for him to actually be considered OP in practice as opposed to just on paper.
So is Akuma and Geese...
Yeah, every character can be OP if you just have the right skill set of using the charactet so not a valid argument there.. Jin is literally bottom 2 in the rankings.
@@RandomGameClips27not to Jin level
Is this a knock? It's hard to tell.
@@tehZuko yes it’s absolutely a knock. A character can’t be OP if the stipulation of them being OP requires you to basically be a god at the game. In order for a character to be OP the reward you get has to vastly outweigh the effort put in to to achieve said reward. This seems to be a concept that TMM has a really hard time grasping despite the fact that he doesn’t even play Jin that often because of how goddamn hard he is.
9:36 neuron activation
Let's hope they balance the characters better this time, but also keep their identities. Who tf wants to see the same 5-7 characters in Top 8 every time? Make a hard to use character like Bryan hard rewarding ok, but also make a strong mix up based character like Kuni less damaging, IMO.
Noctis is very strong at homing attack and whiff punish
Us devil Jin mains have been saying it since the beginning that devil Jin is trash and the worst character in the game after season 5 but haters will always be haters. Even in season 4 devil Jin was only mid tier with no tournament presence and can’t compete with the rest of the cast.
I'd argue devil Jin has the worst mids in the entire game, none of them are counter hit launchers and any of them that are even somewhat rewarding are very unsafe. this makes his electric WAY worse in the neutral because there is no big consequence for trying to duck or step it.
@@brandonscott5435 B4 is a CH launcher and safe. df2 is a CH launcher
@@brandonscott5435 exactly
Not very many reasons to not duck Devil Jin at this point lol. At range 2.5-3 Dj is not scary at all. Uf 4 no knockdown resets neutral massive damage nerf. There is literally no point to play him over Kazuya unless you genuinely like the character.
With Chloe it's not necessarily about the frames, it's an aspect but you can actually whirl your way around that a bit. The real issue she has is that she linear as hell, she has poor reach on a lot of her key moves and her mixups (remember, she is supposed to be mixup heavy character) for the most just aren't that good. The MU Knowledge aspect is a fact, most players I run into barely seem to know anything about her, but if you run into players who at least have some experience against her, they'll blow you up and you have to switch your playstyle for a 180°
i still wish you could lab DLC chars without knowing the matchup, lidia might be bad but she's still so oppressive to fight it feels
Yeah it really sucks that you have to buy the character to practice them , i ran into the same problem after lidia dropped
i guess this means DJ joins Lars "into the bin"
As I've been saying forever zafina is wildly overatted, just look at aslan seems he's mainly playing kunimitsu at Japan evo. Also ps4 has much worse online than pc and thats probably why input delay aside.
To be fair, If knee chooses noctis, he becomes the best character in the game 😅
Some noctis player might kicked his ass in ranked
Ps4 as of 4 months ago when i last played is still worse than pc by a long shot. Ps4 5 bar feels like pc solid 3 bar to me.
Seeing knee take this into consideration is interesting and i agree with the idea
Didn't expect to see Noctis at the top, damn...
I think Knee is saying that Noctis is pretty good for his fundamental tools and defensive tools rather than his overall kit being broken af. Extremely good whiff punishing, with a mix of unparryable movesets similar to Kunimitsu, and good keepout. His moves are pretty scary if you ignore the linearity, and ff+1+2 is deceptively good since it tracks well,. He still has the emo-man at the wall, and he can mix it up with the chidori (b+2, delayed 1+2, is 14 frames, and xafe on block). His FC mixup is also fairly okay. Unlike Kuni who recieved nerfs to her FC mixup due to 1,1 being unsafe, Noctis retains the wallsplatting safe mid
Playing him/playing against him now, I feel like I've underestimated Noctis for the longest time since I always beat Noctis players before with zero problem, but good Noctis players were always the scariest
normal jin > devil jin. good job namco
I think he says dvj cause he knows the match up better than anyone.
That’s pretty accurate lol
There's not much to know compared to other characters, if you know how to punish u4 and some of his other very few knowledge checks you're basically good.
@@steponmeplease6217 should probably mention that iws2 tracks ssl but most people aren't gonna be able to do that myself included.
maybe the sword makes it risky to fuzzy low parry cuz you can't parry his sword
He must be smokin that good good
Hahahaha
Let's see, who understand the game better, knee who is one of the best if not THE best player to ever touch the game.
Has Tekken God Omega rank with every character in the game, OR john Smith.
All of his picks seem right, I agree devil jin is an odd choice, bit I assume knee has his reasons, probably if he's talking about tournament play mishimas are very hard to play compared to other characters.
Perhaps this is why he names devil jin.
@@madanalym4165 Calm your tits, its not that serious
Come on MM, Knee is way more knowledgeable than you on this topic. He can actually play these characters at the highest level. Did you see how much tournaments he won with Steve ? How course he is going to put him top5
“Dragunov is the best character” JDCR
I agree with Knee when he said that Devil Jin is bottom 5, He used to be godlike 3 years ago but after the nerfs he got and the new top tiers nowadays he became forgotten.
Delusional
@@imissmyshots9735 what?
@@imissmyshots9735
“You’re delusional for agreeing with the greatest tekken players opinion, the player who understands the game better than anyone, because I personally don’t agree with his opinion” you sure he’s the delusional one?
@@averydistinctusername1635 Does being the best actually mean you understand the most? I was at one point top 2000 Dota player in Europe and I literally couldnt predict what would be good based on patch notes if you put gun to my head. I had no understanding of the game at all. I knew my role, my characters and I knew my gameplan and thats it. I didnt even read what abilities did, once I played the character, I memorized it and just thought I knew..
@@MrFurmos top 2000 is impressive but not comparable to top 1
It seems like an april fool but if im correctly this knee video is not recorded today
the Nerfs dude are crazy on fahkumram I payed for his DLC and I so regretted it after the nerfs
To be fair to the man, English isn't his strong suit. His videos can be very technical when he's talking in Korean. Check out his subtitled T8 trailer reactions
To be fair. He probably forgot about Kuma/Panda.
Church of Ora has become Church of Chidori
Maybe Noctis's B2(1+2), watch CBM
Knee is basically saying “top 5 characters that need buffs? Devil Jin”, “top 5 that needs nerds? Akuma, noctis, geese”
fahkumram alone shows how tekken7 creators have 0 idea of what're they doing
I think TMM was right on gigas in season 3.30 tierlist, he was better until 4.0.
Devil Jin is just really bad imo compared to characters toned down since the beginning like LC or Gigas
Actually I tried to play some DVJ recently, oh man he's so hard to get wins with, his mids aren't a menace considering how bad his lows are (Yea I'm saying his hellsweep is bad) doesnt give oki if you do cd4,4, doesnt give oki if you do wall travel combo, doesnt give good dmg unless you hit a wall
He has EWGF but that's basically it, I find it way easier with Kazuya because of how many KND and safe power mids he has along with his counter utility compared to DVJ
Then I can see why he's putting Claudio in his top 5 for PS4 especially because of how effective his mix up game is when he locked you on the wall, and considering the input lag, there's almost 1 frame of delay added compared to PC which makes it probably harder to block supposedly reactable lows in ss4 and b1, respectively i20 for the low and i18 for the mid, also if you consider lower risk lows like db4,3 and magic df3,1 which are respectively i15 for the low and i14 for the mid yeah, and as TMM mentionned, d2,2 with starburst, and probably fuzzy guarding in general vs him is hard
I think it's not bad considering him top5 on PS4 and maybe like top10 on PC
Calling Dvj hellsweep bad is a stretch imo, but ignoring the wall factor kazuya's is better 100%. And in s5 the wall factor isn't nearly as big as s4 too.
He’s talking about 60hz vs 144hz as the input lag aspect
Fahk earned those nerfs but they OBLITERATED that man lmao.
I rank DJ as a mid tier, I don't memorize all the frames on his moves but my brother plays DJ and Jin every time we play vs each other that I know how to punish almost every move sing Gigas and Eddy.
I haven't seen a Devil jin since Quadans... So Knee is right
There is one called Vermilion, but he isn't anywhere high, and it was some time ago too.
this weird list just goes to show how pointless tier lists are. Just because pros have inhuman reflexes that make them better than most people, doesn't mean they have objective takes imo
Mainman bandai namco going ham!!! New character trailers came out!!!
What's good mms. Thx for teaching me the best game on earth
Scrump reacts to knee's tier list.
@TheMainManSWE have you ever considered how power his punishment? His 1,2 is a very fast punish and has power to it.
Soon we will have to make a new Tier List of Tekken 8
Was wondering when he’d react to this.
Im sure he has a reason to put Noctis that high. Im pretty sure Noctis is better than Marduk at least. He is strong even if worse than Zafina or Julia
Toooooop Faaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiffff?!?!😂
Devil jin in bottom 5 is a good april fools joke ngl
?
Lucky Chloe mains punching the air right now
No they’re smirking the fuck out and patting themselves on the back for cheesing everyone
Are they talking about input delay in terms of online or offline?
Knee's top 5 bamboozles elbow's expected top 5 of knee
I play with literally every charcter in the bottom 5. But I play with a lot of characters so... But I really like Fahk, Gigass and Lidia tho.
Ps will never have the same input lag as pc because you can optimize so much on pc (render qeue, frametimes, custom drivers)
I still dont get why they play tournaments on ps and not pc
Love you main man ❤
april fools tier list?
buff drag
maybe knee considers the number of favorable matchups and not looking at individual tools ..
hes top player, what do u have to say? scrup man
@@jeiantales936 nice EnGylEsh BTW !
I never expected Claudio to be mentioned at all, except to say he's boring as hell. So he's very good?