The Most CONTROVERSIAL GRADE in Climbing History
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 18 фев 2024
- The most controversial climbing grade system?? 🤔
A tough topic, which in the past has been the catalyst for a fight with a pint down the pub...and in more recent years had the Internet riled up so much keyboard hero's have lost thousands of pounds from whole computer systems being tossed out the upstairs window in rage.
With E12 having just been proposed & repeated and an app been developed to help 'solve' E grade problems, what better time for us to release a video with discussion, 'explanation' and opinion.
We also shed light on the big 'elephant in the room' topic - The British Tech grade. A subject no one has publicly dared to even touch yet. Well don't worry, we're here to dive straight in for you.
If you get fired up easily, nail that laptop down and strap in tight. We don’t want any ipads flying into the neighbours garden.
This is gonna be a laugh isn't it 😂😉....isn't it?!......no really....it is right??
#eisforextreme😂 #eisforeggsontoast #eisforwhothefknows #eisforego #eisforexperience #eisforexcellent #egrade
Climbing footage within the video from:
- Once upon a time in the South West, • Climber's Gear Falls O... @WideBoyz
Clippity Clop, / czrxoutnt-q
Baron Greenback, • Pete Whittaker 1st asc... @WildCountryClimbing
Fly Trap, • We Pushed Toby Segar T... @WideBoyz
Parthian Shot, • Ben Bransby climbs Par... @nickbrown200 @ukclimbingofficial @WideBoyz
The Walk of Life, • Now That's What I Call... @HotAches
Rhapsody, • Now That's What I Call... @HotAches
Indian Face, • Dave MacLeod - Indian ... @HotAches
For all Wide Boyz products, visit our online shop
www.wideboyz.com
Follow us:
📸Instagram: @wide_boyz / wide_boyz
👥Facebook: @wideboyzltd / wideboyzltd
🐦Twitter: @wide_boyz / wide_boyz
Contact us:
info@wideboyz.com 
Спорт
E grade is about the whole day. Like there's an E6 wall to climb, but the nearest restaurant to eat lunch at is a bit shit, so it's more like an E7
your comment made my day
Considering the British restaurant scene, does that mean that each trad route is sandbagged by at least 1 E-grade?
I most definitly think so@@richerlariviere
@@richerlarivierewas coming to comment something similar 😂
There could be a great curry house nearby...
But if you ate there the day before and had a spicy vindaloo, the grading goes up by an exponential 1E!
We need an experiment. Tom and Pete climb routes without knowledge of the grade and have to guess the E grade afterwards. End of the day it doesnt really matter since O-grading is the superior system for all styles of climbing.
We've done that. Both Pete and Tom have done first ascents at just about every E grade.
@@daveblack2602I think the point was clearly to test the inter-rater reliability of E grading by experts. If Pete, Tom, and the setter all agree, then the grade is meaningful. If they disagree heavily, then maybe the grade is subjective to the point of being useless
You guys are missing the point. He just wanted to tell everyone he watches wideboyz and knows the O system. He's an insider, he wants you to know
there is only one problem with the O-grade as a system, but it is easily remedied by Ondra just climbing every route in the world. a bit selfish of him to not have done it already i must say
The whole thing with E grades reminds me of Kalous's original aid rant. "We have a confirmed E12: there's the corpse!"
I have always thought that I will never understand British climbing grades. I don't "think" that anymore, now I know that for sure. You know what is looks like to me? - Like an attempt to define a point position in 3-dimensional space with a single number.
This comment is a J7
Where he third axis is sustained or not
What a good description!😅
If I go and climb a V0 boulder on Tristan da Cunha (which is technically part of Britain, but the only way to get there is a 6-day boat trip from South Africa), can I call it E11 just because of how bloody hard the approach was?
It's an E12 if you're white traveling through South africa
Yep
Apparently, yes!!
A stepladder on the moon is E14.
Only if you swim/row/paddle there
I desire the Dave Macleod reaction to this discussion.
Speaking as an American who barely climbs
Yes yes
it just happened :D
I've found that when first introduced to a trad grading system with two numbers, a lot of people assume the Brits use one to grade the danger, and one to grade the physical difficulty.
The problem with that kind of system, of course, is that it actually makes sense.
Hahaha i thought this!!! Why isnt it like this!!!??
Can't be having THAT !😂
😂😂😂
But you do lose nuance. Like 'is the route sustained' or a 'easy but a one move wonder'. Adjectival grade + tech grade gives a little more info in a weird way.
Fair. there's always the possibility of 3 grades but that might be an overkill. I personally think that not having the tech grade isn't that bad.@@frederickmead7943
11:23 sounds like Pete is naming dwarves ; snappy, sketchy, slabby and smeary
😂😂😂😂
We also use E grades in Ireland so 1:17 in and we're already at The Troubles levels of controversy 😂
They are used in Malta too.
Morroco
2:00 Pete, you called the final pitch of Freerider ‘about E2’ in your rope solo video of El Cap!
hahahahahahahahahaha
😆 we have proof
It like following a discussion about improvised jazz
"I don't blow. I don't suck."
Nope that would make more sense :D
You guys should definitely do a long trip up to Scotland and siege some of Dave's classics to validate that spicy take
Would love to see this!
Tom's too feart.
I wonder what normal people think of us
There are normal people left in this world? 😯
I'm 25min in and am waiting for the final conclusion, that the O-grade is better than the E-grade in every single way ;).
I love how you think, "I know know what our viewers will love! A video with us sitting around pontificating about some esoteric subject." ...And you make it, and we do. I was thoroughly entertained.
Cool comment, and well written. Anyway, my heart would probably stop with joy if I ever led an E1.
It sounds like the opposite of the Brazilian grading system where all the factors are separated...
For example: Italianos 5° VI D1 E2
5°: overall difficulty of the route
VI: grade of the crux (or cruxes)
D1: duration of the route, from D1 to D5
E2: exposition, risk grade (distance between protections and quality) from E1 to E5
00:17 I waited until the end of the video for the two "level-headed" people to join the conversation and discuss the matter...
Are these two people coming on a future episode or what?
Haha gotta love pete and background crew reaction when Tom says he hasnt climbed any of the MacLeod routes 🤣
To get really technical, risk is the combination of likelihood of occurrence and the severity of the occurrence
When its just Tom and Pete sitting together you know you are in for some top quality banter
You need to get out more.
This could be the first of a series covering the other international grading systems
next vid perhaps?
Agree yes to this please 👍
What I learned today is that the E stands for exponential :)
This is lovely. More of this laidback nerdy videos will surely be appreciated ❤
You guys are so good at listening to each other. Very interresting discussion. Thanks
So if Im an E9 climber I could either be a super good climber. Or just climb something easy and be suicidal?
Not so much 😁 If the climbing was 5c climbing then it generally wouldn’t get above E1-E3 because the risk of falling off is then lower. It’s a very elegant system.
Still need to climb F7c or above with death potential. Ie Indian Face
Not that high of a grade but yes somewhat
i believe it kinda scales up at E5/6
Edge lane is E5 5c … I think … been a long time (20 years since I even looked at anything like that!)
I also think it's important to mention that the technical grade can give a lot of context to the accompanying trad grade. Eg a HVS 5B is often harder climbing but more safe whereas say a HVS 4c will be a lot less well protected.
There's so many examples on grit where hvs5b can be bold tho
feel like HVS is a controversy all by itself @@jameslincoln1
Funny. As I found hvs 4c harder than e1 5a. Is it the polish factor? Or the imposing thought of the grade that led to that
HVS is the last of the Victorian grading system. Some/many of them were never re-graded when E grades came in, so you can end up on a HVS that is harder/bolder than something newer/re-graded at E1 (maybe even E2 in some cases)
But this simply isn’t true either. I climbed a roof that was HVS 4C and it was probably one of the most well protected climbs I’ve done. The sustained physicality earned the HVS but it was definitely no harder than 4c and the pro was great. Careful thought required in a big catchment statement like that.
What’s the O equivalent though?
Bon Voyage hasn’t been officially graded, but I would guess is around E9-11 based on difficulty and sketchy falls. Ondra put it down as O3
@@billyjhonston8139 It has been proposed as E12 by JP. Ondra seems to have confirmed it there with physical climbing at F9a level
@@SpartaSpartan117 I hadn’t realized it was that hard, really puts into perspective how crazy strong Ondra is
@@SpartaSpartan117I didn’t realise Jordan Peterson was a climber. I thought he was just a Kermit the frog talkin’ painkiller addict 🤷🏻♂️
This is the real question we need answered
Pete Whip-Taker
not really though
I’ve done E45, but it was just for a bit of dry skin on my elbow 😊
I've done E45 too, but that was just to get from Munich to Innsbruck 😊
But how about Adam climbing E12 Bon Voyage, should it be E12 ?
I think this gets into a fascinating territory of how the way we judge things is so influenced by what we are valuing in the first place. Those values get instilled in the rules of grading, and then those values become the core of an activity. For instance this grading scheme tries to capture all the aspects of climbing, not just the climb itself, or narrowing it down to the hardest single move, and rating it based on that. This grading structure values different aspects of climbing that other climbing grade systems, so a translation isn't really possible.
You should check out John Ewbanks original outline of the Australian grading system... " Grading takes the following into consideration ... Technical difficulty, exposure, length, quality of rock, protection and other smaller factors. .." He rejected the idea of separate grades ie exposure, difficulty etc.. "Instead the climb is given one general grade, and if any other factor is outstanding, this is stated verbally in the description of the climb"
Its the best grading system in the world just not always applied the way it should be...
I'd definitely have the many debates about Franco Cookson's Grading in the E-grade controversy top 3, so much to unpack there.
3:05 I think the most comprehensive grading system in the sense you speak of would be the Brazilian one. An example grade: "5sup VIIb E3 D3"
The first grade refers to the general grade for the route, while the second grade is the hardest move. E1-E5 refers to how exposed/dangerous the route is. The D grade refers to how long is the climb.
D1: A few hours of climbing
D2: Half day of climbing.
D3: Almost a full day of climbing.
D4: A long day of climbing.
D5: Requires a night on the wall. Very fast climbers can repeat it in one day.
D6: Two full days or more climbing. Typically includes long and complicated stretches of aid climbing.
D7: Expeditions to remote access sites
Now this sounds absolutely amazing, we don't tend to have climbs big enough in the UK to reach D5 and above
On the point that for E grade to get higher they have to be riskier. I think the feeling of risk is relevant to the grade you climb. I.e if I climbing French 9a then get on a run out E2. That is not going to feel very risky. But if I climb sport 6a and get on the same E2 it is going to feel like a real trouser filler. From experience.
Good point. I've never heard that factor discussed before. But I've met many sport climbers who say that trad scares them too much to do. Even some sport climbers in the top 10% would probably be as gripped as E2 leaders on a run-out E2. I'm just speculating.
Love the sofa setup!
Im liking the succulents on the table 🤪
Well boys, sounds like you need to come up to Scotland and get on some Dave Mac sandbag classics!
Petes face when Tom says "absolutely massive lob on" is absolute gold.
If you want to add a danger or risk rating, I don't understand why it has to be in the same number as the difficulty. Call it X, going from 1 to 10, 10 being certain death. Soloing a 70 degree jug ladder is 3a X10, silence is 9c X1 cause you're on bolts on an overhang. I'm guessing this is what the technical grade in E grades was meant to do, but the main E still includes difficulty so you're stuck with two mutually semi-redundant grades that still don't tell you much, like why is a death fall on 6a an E4, but a death fall on 5a an E1? (or whatever, insert more appropriate grades if you want, I don't understand this system, that's the point of the comment).
a 1-10 danger rating would be highly inconsistent. How do you define something like that? What if there's no gear for most of the route but the crux had bomber gear or vice versa. What if the gear is good but you have to stop on hard positions to place it. The infinite nuance in routes is what makes the E grades so useful, it accounts for all these things
Solution: the O grades.
If you want to up the risk factor and thus increase the E grade, just add some extra fun hazards.
Want to make something E13, just add a crocodile pit at the bottom, and climb with chunks of offal hanging from your harness.
E14? Your belayer is covered in honey and buried up to their neck in an ant hill.
E15? If you don’t finish the route in 15 minutes, automated crossbows start firing at you.
For E16, instead of cams and stoppers, you’ve got a bag full of pre-slung rattlesnakes to shove in cracks the rock. E17 if the snakes aren’t preslung 😂
Start combining these extra factors, and you’ll make it to E20 in no time at all 😂😂😂
Great vid guys 😊
26:33 appreciating Pete's derailment tactics with the Stan reference. I'm sure Tom was very nearly wondering why he got out of bed at all.
Love these funny, nerdy climbing chats!!!
I'm surprised that there was no discussion of Bon Voyage
such a pleasure listening. cheers. from QC, CA
Brilliant rambling for a good afternoon session on the couch here 😅 The best speakers as always 🙌👊
I love this.. I have always wanted a better understanding of the E grade.
In Brazil we use a system that has different grades for: how hard is the climbing, how much time it takes and how exposed it is.
In my opinion this makes more sense. That way you can easily choose a route that challenges you in one of those aspects but is within your capacity in the others
We have a E-Scale in germany. E1 is that there is a certain liklyhood that you get hurt while falling. E2 is a very high probability that you get hurt. And E3... yea we don't talk about it.
But the E-Scale is only an addition to an UIAA or french-grade
Wouldn’t have guessed that this video could be so fascinating and enjoyable to watch. Don’t imagine this would be possible for most to pull off like the Wide Boys here, which in large part is down to their experience level, their humor/type of humor, and the humorous banter between them. None of those components alone would result in a video about grades being watchable at least for me (unless it was about aid climbing, my bar is set low for aid climbing content and I’ll take whatever I can get with a smile on my face).
You two are the very best. 4 minutes into a topic that will have no bearing on my sport climbing life and I’m giggling with you💙
Please make this a podcast.. I need it periodically
13:20 lol at Pete making up grading bc no one understands the system
E Grades are used in Ireland often, just for clarity
Nice to know a rock climbing route has been successfully done in Ireland so a grade could be given. Just assumed the rocks are always wet 😂😢😮
I’m just a fish in the stream of comments
As someone that goes bouldering 2-5 times max. and mostly does hiking with the occasional alpine glacier hike/climb stuff here in Switzerland, i might have a distant view on this topic.
The main problem of climbing scales in general is, that they try to quantify a subjective experience.
When I go bouldering, some easy boulders are really hard for me as a 2m guy just because they have overhang or the positions are really crammed.
Others are easy for me, because i can reach holds others have to dyno.
This would lead to a different grading.
Based on this, I would see a grading system for outdoor climbing, that is purely based on measureable, quantifiable things like e.g. longest distance between gear placements in relation to height above ground (direct number that shows risk of hitting the floor), surface/rock roughness/grip, number of possible holds etc.
Great vid. Camera tip: if youve got two cam angles. Make them different. I.e. one wide and tight (like a portrait) cus having two wide shots here is redundant.
Where do highball boulders fall into the mix? Some of the bold problems Nalle put up are probably higher than half the stuff done with gear in the peak and at ~V14
You should be able to make a 3D graph between X-axis the “normal” sport grade like French grade, then Y-axis the risk, going from 0% risk (tall route properly bolted) to 100% risk (the same route completely free solo’ed)…. And vertically on Z-axis the E grade. Free solo’ing should be the ultimate risk and therefore maximum E grade for that particular sport grade should apply.
It's hard to say that there isn't E grade compression when Echo Wall was ~8c climbing with a strong possibility of decking, according to Dave.
Echo wall hasnt been graded. Dave suggested its harder than Rhapsody by a fair margin
@@MrClarktom He suggested a grade for echo wall on his Lexicon video
Ah, Echo Wall is "E10ish", which given he has also said it's ~8C+ with very poor protection makes one wonder whether you need to have spinning blades or a lava pit for something to be E12
@@thenayancat8802 tbf I've heard someone describe Dave Mac E6s harder and more scary than some E9s, although that is purely anecdotal
Tom - 'I think WOL was E10 when James climbed it but I agree with others that it's E9 now'. Thanks for clearing that up.
Thoughts on Echo Wall? Great episode!
Thoughts on Hard Cheese? Basically an 8c solo with serious potential life changing / ending consequences if you fell off. Maybe not absolute certain death if you fell but you could die if you fell wrong.
Upvote for this query!
I'd say it will be nice to have such a simple E-grade in every country. Otherwise, instead of having a short list of routes in the area with their difficulty and 2nd simple E-grade, we currently are using the technical grading and plenty of words to describe some of the key factors and aspects of the route when it comes to the protection, risks involved, boldness etc. to expect.
Hey pete. Have you resoled your tennies? If so, where and what rubber.
I find it hard to understand how a route with 50 6a moves and one 6b move could get the same technical grade as rigging one hard move onto the escalator at Marks and Spencers
A very good topic. I think we should add every new topo tech and risk factor into the route grade. That would be more accurate description of the route and bringing a new aspect of safe climbing.
i've always thought it was just the Danger factor. often 6c or something is with the routes ive seen people post.
I think thats two different E-grading systhems.
I have an older guidebook for the südpfalz in Germany where they use the UIAA-scale
And sometimes there are additions for either risk/severity "ernsthaftigkeit" or for aid-use
So a grade might look like this:
6+
So there is no risk to be mentioned -> can be protected well
Or
7- E1
In this case the difficulty is 7- and the E1 tells us that there is a higher risk involved because the rock might be weak, or there are just few good placements
Or
5+ A0
In this case the aditional A0 tells us that the route is only 5+ if you aid at a specific, usually the hardest move.
So these aditions very much exist. But are a different thing than what they where discussing.
Thats at least how I understand it.
Another E garde controversy was Strawberries given E5 7a, Now E7 6b, and I think that was a watershed for the UK grading system for when sport climbing came in we went with French grades,
best grading system in French with American suffixes for risk so 7b+ R/X for example for runout technical slabe with ify untested gear,
The basic principal that the E grade is a combination of physical difficulty and risk makes sense. I think what could be improved is also explicitly giving a risk level (e.g. 1-5) as well as giving a french sport grade for physical difficulty (grade if it was bolted).
There have been many attempts (many many many attempts!) to explain this grading system. But this is without doubt the best explanation out there!
thank you for this clarification!
Here in Brazil we use the E letter to express the level of EXPOsure of the route, being it a single pitch sport or trad route or even a sport, mixed or alpine multpitch route. Usually the sport routes are never riskier than E2. and the mixed or sport multipitch are never riskier than E4/E5 (when it's E4 already there is a death possibility involved for the lead climber and E5 the entire party is exposed to death, in case of lead climber falls.- "mixed or alpine route".) But single pitch trad routes are rated until the E8. Even though there are no records of somebody ever onsighting, neither flashing, neither redpointed an E6,E7 neither E8. there a few free ascents of routes rated with that level of exposure on leading but all with preplaced gear.( the brazilian do not consider so much this grading system even though great climbers as Ralf Côrtes and a few others had tried to make it stick) previously I wrote "rated" because alongside the level of "EXPO" on the topo, it comes the grading system, which is different from every others and it gets until 13a BR (9c/5:15d) but in brazil the hardest route is still 12a BR (9a+, thanks to Felipe Camargo). An exemple the topo. The Devil's Shortcut Route, a bigwall free climb in south face of Corcovado( the mountain with christ the redeemer statue on the top) it's Atalho Do Diabo 8 Xa E2 D4, it stands for alphabetic number the general grade of the route, the roman number for the crux, E for the exposure and D for the Duration. sometimes its very controversial when it comes to expo because the level of difficulty of general grade of the route plus the level of exposure combine can make a fall of E2 potentially become an E4 depending on the other aspects of the route like the sinuosity of the wall, difficulty of the visualization of moves, protections or placements and the amount of slack given and "the lack of communication due the touristic helicopter flights over the mountain, even with radio transceivers" ( this last part is a joke but its serious element on this climb).
If you guys read until here, i would like to ask a second video about this subject. talking a bit more about the "HVS" and a comparison with the X/R routes of the americans. Thanks for such good, fun and enriching contents ! you boyz are E-ncredible. S2 cheers!
was this recorded before adams repeat of that E12 (or doesn't it count because it's in france)? and can you comment on that one?
The Yosemite Decimal System technically has all the same components, they just aren’t all used very frequently. The 5. grade gives the the physical/technical grade (easy 5th-5.15), the safety rating gives the risk level (PG-X), and the size grade gives whole day experience (Grade I-Grade VII)
How about: E-grade is how likely you can top out on lead, on sight. Tech grade is how hard is the hardest move.
The E grade system was used for onsight trad climbing. It’s now used for repointing on trad. In my view a route doesn’t deserve a trad grade unless it has been onsighted. I guess E9+ (I don’t know what the max onsight is) should be given a sport grade maybe with a suggested highlight of the danger element if you like but should have a sport grade until it gets an onsight ascent. - Edit - Aha and Pete actually says this half way through! And I’m right about the E9+😊
As someone outside the UK, all I understood from this is that it looks like the E Grade lacks granularity. The difficulty and risk variables not having a direct correlation just makes it near impossible to understand a route from just the number. And who had the idea to introduce a tech grade that has even less granularity? 7b easy/medium/hard? There's so many numbers and letters in the alphabet that could have been used.
Gj guys! Actually thought that E grading is rubbish after the first minutes. But made kind of sense during the video.
How about the chance of dying or serious injury if you fall off multiplied by how technically hard the climb is. Would E12 be a 9a route with a guaranteed deck from 50m if you fall of the 8a section?
3:30 The "O" grading system is still the greatest
I don't know much about the E grades and never climbed in the UK, but here's a thought: E grades provide an estimate of the likelihood that you are going to injure yourself or die. This likelihood is a joint probability of falling off (one event) and injuring yourself in case of a fall (second event), so the joint probability is a product of separate probabilities for both events. Then it makes some sense, like you are a 8c climber and you want to climb a E6 - you know you should be fine, if it's a very hard (physically) E6 you might fall but it will be fine to fall, if it's a very dangerous one you know the climbing will be easy enough for you to not fall. Either way, the likelihood of injuring yourself is low. Makes some sense if going for an onsight, but why the hell not to give separate ratings for the physical difficulty and the risk involved? Most people consider those two factors completely separately and I bet if someone recommends you a nice E5 to climb in the UK you will directly ask whether it's a dangerous one or physically hard one etc.
Kinda surprised “weather considerations” weren’t mentioned as part of the E stands for Experience dialogue… like, how likely are damp/wet conditions figured into the E? Also, when ilg was nearly as Badass as our fearless hosts? 😂 In the ‘80’s in Boulder, Colorado we would in fact grade risks within the decimal point system with an “r” for “runout” (aka; poor protection) or an “x” for “extreme danger” (aka; fall and u die or wish you would) … an example from back b4 most of y’all were born was David Breashers “Perilous Journey” in Eldo graded at that time as 5.11+ x… it was terrifying and even as a free soloist in my prime, never attempted it. probably why I’m still here writing this!😂… great vid! 🙏🏾🇺🇸
Just to complicate things even more, what are your thoughts on free solo grading? If the E grade is dependent on risk/danger then could a route hold and very high E grade of its soloed but still be within the “easy climbing”?
Im curious as to why you guys haven't tried many of Daves routes?
we just add a movie rating to YDS lol
One minute and a half of the video and Pete already taking a piss at James by saying "it goes up till E11 and is only for trad in the UK"...
Does the use of modern gear have an effect on the e grades that were established 20-30 years ago?
it's also used in Ireland, it's the best trad grading system imo because it accepts that a simple scale is not enough i have americans in my climbing club and it's quite intuitive once u explain it to them they like the tech grade addition.
These videos are just too dam good
Seems like the E grade scale has a lot to live up to in comparison to the other scales, maybe put a decimal to rate the hike, a letter after to rate the placement and perhaps a symbol like +, - or A, B, or C for grades that just don't quite feel like a E5.12C+
actually you guys opened some routes in valle dell'orco in italy and gave E grades. Am I wrong?
WOW! It's 2024 and the Yosemite Decimal System gets some real love and props. As a person who's used many different grading systems I have to agree with the Wide Boyz here and add that the French grading system is a distant 4th
What about the increase in climbing protection technology. Does this deflate the E grades if something that was unsafe is now relatively well protected? In a similar way to kneepads and sport/boulder grades?
It's incomprehensible, even after 37 minutes.. My favourite part is where Pete admits he's just been making the tech grade bit up because no one ever told him how it works.
Aussies do it best.. 1 to 35. And guess what happens when someone puts up an even harder climb than a 35? That's right, there's now a 36.
As a frenchman I never understood your british e grades.But it is a great pleasure to see that brits don't understand these grades neither
I began climbing in the 80s by top-roping Southern Sandstone. There were only British technical grades given, and the differences were clear. 7a was the pinnacle then because the rock didn't allow harder moves due to friction, hold size, etc. Being stronger or having better technique wouldn't allow harder moves. When I started leading up on gritstone, even a Severe or Hard Severe could result in terrible injury if you fell off above a certain height or bad landing. If your gear-placing skills were limited, they were very intimidating routes. I was physically strong but the E grade signified the lead climbing ability and experience needed to complete the climb. The gaps between grades seemed clear enough to me. In the end, the probability of falling off and consequences of doing so 'on onsight attempt' seemed to be represented by the E grade (and below, as most climbers were VS leaders.)
E grades (and other UK grades) indicate how good you need to be for it to be sensible for you to attempt a route. Simple!
Combining difficulty and risk in one number is the problem. Just use 2 numbers (Dn & Rn) and be done with it.
The problem is actually the way the tech grade works, and it’s not a flaw, it’s an ingenious way of making sure trad days in the UK are adventurous, memorable, and often sandbagged 😂
Did Adam Ondea call James Pearson's new route in Annot a 9a sport with very big falls on technical gear?