My issue with GCN (as someone who enjoys 80% of their videos), is that they don't have the view of consumer a lot of times, being ex pros and having a lot of sponsoring. You shouldn't argue why bikes are expensive, but why they should be cheaper
@@dominicbritt Look how inexpensive televisions have become. Sure, there are OLED sets that are quite expensive, but an average 55" LED 4K set can be had for a small fraction of what such a set cost just a few years ago when such sets were high-end. In the bike industry, the bikes that were high end a few years ago should be enjoying the same price cuts, but they aren't. Instead, they're hardly being built at all because the industry doesn't want us to buy such bikes.
@@rangersmith4652 not a really good example, high end tv always have a new feature or tech to sell while you can get older tech cheaply made for peanuts. That's the same as taking a Trek VS a Walmart bike...
@@rangersmith4652in the last few years those prices also stagnated. Btw you can still buy cheap bikes like you still can buy expensive tv’s. People just don’t buy enough cheap bikes.
One thing getting left out of the Motorcycle argument is all the law standards they have to meet, emissions, safety, you name it. Nearly everything on a Motorcycle needs to be certified and compliant and many different countries have different laws and you must know them all. I don't think this is the case at all for bicycle manufacturers. That's largely a self-regulated industry, no?
Motorcycles have economies of scale on their side as well. Bicycles are assembled from components by hand, and I doubt its anything like the volumes of motorcycles.
Carbon as such as frame, wheel material, has been around for 20 years! where is the trickle down that they are talking about? This is just GREED from Marketing and CEOs that want to scam you all.
Motorbikes can reach much higher prices than bikes, 300kph easily, so the components also needs to be tested a lot more and as you mentioned emission and safety regulations. yes, you can buy a scooter for 4K and a bike for 15k, but usually people buy cheaper bikes and more expensive motorbikes.
GCN changed quite a bit once much of its content became sponsored. When they are riding climbs in Mallorca and they spend a segment showing the bikes they are riding, the video is effectively a 20 or 30 minute commercial for those bikes. Being paid directly by the industry leads to defending the industry whether conscious or not. This morning Ollie and Alex were talking about indoor training. At some point Ollie says, "don't get the $40 turbo trainer, get the $400 Wahoo Kicker". I don't think it's even conscious for them at this point, they are just in the mode of sell, sell, sell. Today I will ride my Giant Tempo spinning bike just as I have for each of the previous 20 winters. GCN has some good content but always keep in mind what they are selling.
I loved the video about the "spontaneous" visit at alex house where he presented his "perma" wahoo indoor cycling set up, just to ride the same bike which was supposed to be permanently in his indoor set up in the next video outdoors. Ofc he had only the latest wahoo stuff looking like it was never ever used at his house. Since GCN+ went bankrupt the yt channel in german and english just became trash tv. Even topics which are interesting to me like "does to much sugar/gels during training cause diabetes" is presented in a way to sell stuff. For me its even hard to watch their insta stuff now, because its just about hitting your face with a canyon bike as much as they can. I dont mind them riding canyon, orbea or what ever manufacturer is paying them to ride. But i want them to be honest about stuff and not tell me how great something is just because they get payed for it.
Exactly. GCN has some good content but you have to remember it's wrapped in a commercial so they are only going to say good things about that product. For reviews I like channels like The Ride with Ben Delaney, his reviews are honest. He has a clothing sponsor so he does not review clothing at all. He does not have a bike or tire sponsor so those review as his own opinions, he is not receiving any money for his review.
Ollie is an absolute snob, that's why. If it isn't the cream of the crop stuff, he doesn't like it. I have a dumb trainer and speed+cadence sensors, whole set up cost me £70. I get the same training as I would with a smart trainer.
@@nicolas2838 That's a little unfair I consider my trainer setup permeant in the sense that the Trainer, Climb, Rocker, mat etc. All sit in front of a dedicated screen most of the time, and there is usually *A* bike on it, just not always the same bike.
I’m not a cyclist. I have an old old mountain bike that’s broken and can’t go out. But I’ve find this channel recently and have loved every minute of the content and discussions! Thanks!
To be fair, there was also a GCN video a couple of months ago "the bike you want vs. the bike you need" or videos on what to look out if you buy second hand. The presenters are all quite humble characters, who know how privileged they are to ride the bikes they are riding.
@@gregmcnicoll5520 I think Ollie is just super into the technical geeky side of things and it comes across as being snobby. I don't really get what people expect out of gcn. I think they usually do a pretty good job making the point that you don't need an expensive bike or upgrades. They wouldn't exist if they didn't take marketing money and advertise products though.
The Muck Off 5ltr motorcycle cleaner (2 for £25) when I got it, is identical to the vastly more expensive bike version. I checked with Muck Off and also checked the very detailed spec sheets
This sounds like Bicycle equivalent of Pink Tax, Razors, Shampoo, bodywash that are marketed for female cosumers cost somewhat more than the normal one.
I visited Bogotá, Colombia, recently, where I was thrilled to discover that, in addition to the city's lauded bicycle infrastructure, practically every parking lot or garage in the city has space allocated for bicycles, usually with pretty decent security arrangements, and available at very low cost. I usually paid around US$1-$2 to leave my rented bicycle for several hours, and a few of them I used even charged $0 for bikes.
Profit due to inflated sales prices suckers are willing to pay, some of this goes back into R&D to create 'more marketing opportunies' to sucker more people. Putting it bluntly, the bike industry...the people at the top are just trying to make money. They don't care about value or the consumer and the reality is, they are deliberately making bikes more fragile which coincides with lower weight so they will be more disposable, and the consumer will need to buy a replacement bicycle more quickly. Btw, planned obsolescence is the business model of auto manufacturers now as well as society devolves to a more disposable society.
they could just stop, paying everyone having 1k followers on insta to ride their bike or wear their kits and it already would save so much wasted money. All those companies want to become apple of the bike industrie. But they dont understand that there was one person creating apple out of unique ideas no one else had. And the marketing and price tag was just an additional feature to the product, not the main feature of uniqueness. Since this one person is gone apple isnt the same unique company and the myth about it, is slowly fading. When specialized did win 10 grand tours in a row they could argue to be the most expensive company because they had the best bike. Or when the test values of their bikes in an independent windtunnel did stand out, while their bikes weight 6.8 kg. Even when their bikes are super robust or you can get a free service when ever you wish too. Its not the case, so the price is just a fantasy product of a marketing guy. For the trek bike on the other hand a lot of the price is included in the color scheme.
Especially when the Chinese factory has its own designers doing a yearly catalog every year to suggest to the bike companies.. The business model is ridiculously funny the more you dig into it.
With Nick's point about cars being a weapon and educating drivers about it, as someone who was seriously injured after getting hit by a negligent driver, the number of people who blamed ME for even riding my bike in the first place was shocking. I even quit my job over one of my supervisors insulting me behind my back about it. This was in the US where the attitude is bikes are children's toys, so we definitely need an educational advertising campaign to teach people about road safety especially with regards to bikes.
@@whitej85 Don't get me started… I just visited the UK for the first time and almost wanted to cry over seeing how many practical sized cars there were and how much better the drivers were overall (that's not a joke). The number of Tonka Trucks and massive SUVs in big cities in the US is a disaster for road safety, but everyone wants to blame the bikes.
@@ncc1107 completely agree 👍 I’m from the Uk but even we are starting to see the proliferation of larger&taller pickups and SUVs. When need authorities to be putting sensible restrictions on the size of vehicles.
Great episode! Well done! I have a Brompton and have an apple tag taped to it after I was almost mugged in London around 6am a couple of years ago. 6 guys on e-bikes. They seemed to be looking for mobiles and I only got away as the first 4 didn’t notice me and the 2 that did couldn’t decide if they wanted my bike or wanted to stay with their group. It was just a short chase but I was shooketh! Took me a few weeks before cycling again. That wasn’t the case when thieves broke into our bike shed and stole my colleague’s bike I’d borrowed to train for a bike holiday 😢
The issue is greedflation. During covid companies realized that people would pay more due to demand and they are still trying to maintain those prices. Many industries are now paying the price for this greed and we are seeing more and more stock and super discounts. The issue is I doubt prices will ever go down just same MSRP with discounts eventually.
Lol it's not "greedflation". That's literally called supply and demand. If people are willing to keep paying the increasing cost, then it behooves you to raise your price because you will end up having more orders than you can handle, which can trash your supply chain and have a really negative outlook on your product if it is never in stock. The problem is the consumer paying for it. Vote with your wallet. As he said, things sell for what people are prepared to pay. Just because we're out of covid and people are still paying the price isn't companies fault, people have to STOP buying until prices come back down. It's basic economics.
@@Real28 I love basic economics lessons from someone who doesn't understand economics. But to explain and I will say it slowly if it was pure inflation then industries would not have made record profits during these time. They were exploiting inflation to create an excessive profits. Look at GPUs, bikes, cars, etc they all make record profits during this "supposed lack of supply" they weren't selling at inflation prices they were pricing things 3-5x inflation and raking in money. If inflation was up 20% you would expect a 20% increase in price not 50 to 100% increase. This is just basic economics.
@@demonstructieActually he hit the nail on the head. My local grocery store wants $5 for a loaf of bread that used to be 2.50 and costs 1.00 to make today instead of 50cents it used to cost before "inflation". The correct new price should be $3, not $5 - that extra 2 bucks is someone's Porsche money.
I thought the same thing! I thought it was very informative. Also, check out some of GC Performance youtube channel. He goes into comparing bike prices several years ago until now.
Jeff's a cool dude, local to me. Huge on hosting rides and giving back to the community. The other day he had some people from Maxway, where they build their frames, over to the home shop of Wilde for a tour. It's nice to buy from a brand you can put faces to
I started following GCN around 2013-14. Back then it was talking about how to do maintenance tasks on your own bikes, how to improve your FTP, riding in groups basics, training plans. Now it's all silly challenges, crazy bikes, justifying huge price increases.
I have a friend who works in the industry, that mentioned to me that shipping to Canada from China used to cost $2000 CDN for a container, and during COVID increased to $41,000 CDN. This is a major factor for increased cost of bicycles in North America.
As you said, bikes are worth what people will pay for them... and for about two years many people were willing to spend quite a lot on bikes. Specialized, Trek, Cannondale and others raised prices 20%-40% during the pandemic as demand spiked due to the closure of indoor exercise options. Consumers were flush with cash as they couldn't spend it on vacations / eating out or were given disposable money through stimulus checks. This was compounded by lower bike supply due to manufacturing disruptions. Higher demand + lower supply = higher prices. As a result, an SWorks Tarmac went from $10k in 2019 to $14k in 2021. Trek started selling a Madone build with 105 Di2 for $8k. Scott is weirdly selling their top-end Foil for $16k. The Allez Sprint with 105 mechanical and garbage wheels iss $3k. Used bikes were briefly selling for full retail on TPC. The other thing that happened is that the industry stopped selling reasonable entry-level bikes. A big factor in that is the rise of electronic groups. Shimano and SRAM have both basically stopped selling reasonably priced mechanical groupsets. 105 Di2 sells for roughly triple was 105 mechanical used to cost. Even 105 mechanical is now selling for what Dura Ace used to cost in 2015. SRAM has completely abandoned enthusiast mechanical. There are very few new or revised entry-level bikes. The Scott Speedster and Giant Contend are still being sold but are fairly ancient designs. The base Specialized Allez has become more of a commuter-focused road bike with a cheap build. Now all of that has been reversed: inflation has sucked excess cash out of everyone's wallets, bikes are wildly overstocked (and panic-bought pandemic bikes have flooded the used market) and anyone that wanted a bike has already purchased one. Demand has cratered and now prices are falling. All of this was extremely predictible in 2020, and was predicted by basically every industry analyst. I don't think this is ending any time soon, this correction will last at least through 2024. The market for higher-end bikes just isn't that big and the induced demand and lower supply of the pandemic was a once-in-a-lifetime collision of factors. Prices have already started to moderate across the industry, but they clearly have further to fall.
There is a whole market of commuter bikes no one ever talks about. It’s all about road bikes. Bianchi for example have a huge commuter bike portfolio and likely sell more of them than performance road bikes. For companies dedicated to performance road bikes with nothing else to fall back on they will be hurting now.
Completely agree about groupsets. It’s not just initial cost of 12 speed, it’s the ongoing maintenance costs look at the cost of a 12 speed cassette vs a 10 speed. You really don’t need it either 2x10 is perfect. Don’t get me started on wireless either 😅
I grew up on 1x 5 speed mechanical and it was fine.... I now have 2x 2x 12speed electronic group-sets and its still fine...What does that actually matter to anyone other than me?
@@gerrymcbride6429 it doesn’t, have what the hell you want but the comment was about how to keep bike costs down. 2x12 di2 is lovely I’m sure, but will cost you more when parts need replacing.
When someone says "that frameset only actually costs $400 to make" means they don't actually know what they are talking about. Yes there is marketing, but also R&D- Also, you have to have a fundamental understanding of what it actually costs to make molds (each size is a different mold) and what it takes to figure out how to hand lay-up the frame in said mold, hand prep & paint it, ship it over from asia (remember, shipping prices exploded during covid and have barely gone down) and cost to warehouse and distribute the products. After all that, the dealer has to make enough money to keep the doors open & employees fed... I work for a major brand that also owns and operates a ton of stores in the USA- and rent and bills have to get paid, as well as me! So yes, the raw cost may be, let's say under $1,000- but they are running a business, so yeah, they have to make some money. I think if there is one key thing you can blame the industry for is making aero, concealed cables so appealing. 5 years ago nobody cared- now if i put a bike up with hidden cables and one without, the customer will always be drawn to the nicer looking bike... Just the way it is!
@@nicvieri2627 if you ignore all the proprietary crap especially with internal cable routing through the headset there's really only 3 types and a couple different sizes. EC (external cup) ZS (zero stack) and IS (integrated)
I don't know what Nick is talking about when he says alloy bikes don't last as long. Six years ago, I bought what was then a nearly 30 year old Cannondale. I put a modern 11spd groupset on it. That first year, I put 5,000 miles on it. It's still in perfect shape today. For charity I am 6'4" and 200 lbs. I don't know if newer aluminum frames are just not as durable as they were.
Thanks Jimmi , Nic, Emily and "Emily from the future " AND..I got a Redshift stem , after seeing Jimmi get all their stuff , and I love it ! I am OAF , crashed in July and seperated a shoulder and its not the same . I got the stem as a gift , put it on and immediately noticed......nothing , at first . All the small bumps were gone , but after? I didn't ache half as much , my whole upper body felt better , Thanks again. I learn a lot from you folks . P.S. wishing Francis and his dad the best...I am going to have a biopsy tomorrow , and then decide on my own treatment . And so it goes , eh?
These are some of the reasons that led me to totally change my mindset for my last build. No carbon but steel. Maximize fun potential and functionality over performance. I don't run races, I go on rides as often as I can in whatever weather I have, so having a dynamo/fenders seemed like a great idea. I definitely have more fun riding, less stress thinking about the bike failing, getting stolen and the bike ride just as good as any carbon bike.
Your bike makes you feel like a kid again. Maybe that’s why people think about spending money on it as soon as they get out of the saddle. When the downtube got fat, it was the beginning of the end; a new surface for branding you could see a block away. A new gaudiness for an object that had always been beautifully simple. It does, however, make it easier to read the logos as you pass them going up the hill.
I have just come back from a trip to Japan with a visit to the Shimano museum in Osaka to boot. What I noticed during my travels is the high number of road bikes with rim brakes, and group sets such as Tiagra and Claris. That includes the road bikes in cities used for commuting as well as those on famous routes such as the Shiminami Kaido. Perhaps it comes down to the same reason that Heineken is a cheap beer in the Netherlands, but marketed as an exclusive beer in other countries?
650B tyres were originally a road tyre used on French bicycles. They were demi-ballon tyres used on Randonneur, Porteur and Velo de Ville bicycles. Britain used the 26 inch wheel size, 26 x 1 1/4 for sports/racing bikes and 26 x 1 3/8 for sports/comuter bikes. These were Endrick pattern rims for use with rim brakes. These older wheel sizes were replaced by 27 x 1 1/4 and then 700C. 650B tyres on Randonneur bikes still has a following in France, USA and Japan. The use of 650B tyres on gravel bikes was developed by Jan Heine in the USA who had tyres manufactured by Panaracer in Japan for his Compass Cycles brand. Jan also had steel bike frames built with greater clearances to prove the concept, as well as experimenting with tread patterns and tyre widths on the tyres to better deal with the type of gravel surface. As a result of his work, his idea of gravel riding and gravel bikes was jumped on as the next marketing fad by the cycle industry.
@@fenderbenderspecial Arguably, rather pointless with the clutch-equipped derailleurs. And without shifting in the front you have to shift across the WHOLE range when you get from a descent to a steep incline, and WAIT until the proper cog is engaged. On a triple, you'd click the shifter 2 times and have low-range IMMEDIATELY. 1x is stupid in any application.
This episode spoke to my core on so many levels - from bikes being geared (literally!!!) to regular folks, to Jimmi's confessionary love of the hated step-child of the 883 Iron (as a previous owner of one with a 1200 SCREAMING EAGLE **que eagle sound, which is actually red-tailed-HAWK sound** conversion). Keep 'em coming, it's great company as I ride the currently cold, desolate plains of the great American midwest, albeit currently sad and snowless. King Regards, my friends!
Bike mugging are a thing in California as well. Another common type of bike theft is to follow cyclists home, then to break into homes for the bikes. And because it’s hard to simply move, the bike robbers just go to the same homes repeatedly.
Years ago two of my friends bought a mountain bike each. One was about 5ft tall and the other was 6ft 4in tall. The bike shop in Eastleigh, Hampshire sold each of them the exactly same sized bike! So one had a lot of seatpin showing, and the other shorter guy had none showing! The bike shop obviously had no idea!!!!
Phone theft reduced massively when Apple and Google started making it possible to remotely disable your phone. I'd love an equivalent where I could remotely set my derailleurs into the hardest gear and then brick them. (Actually, what I want is the bikes from Virtual Light - a massive capacitor in a steel bike frame which charges while you ride. When you park up, attach the capacitor output to the frame to make an open circuit...)
In about 1986 I saw a $2600 Kestrel in my local bike shop, the first all carbon frame bike. I bought a $500 Scwinn Aluminum. Thirty some years later, in 2018 I paid $1700 for a carbon fiber Kestrel RT1000 with a $500 store credit, effectivly bringing the price to $1200. The Kestrel replaced a 20 year old Aluminum Cannoondale R500 that cost $1050 and weighted about 2kg more. The Kestrel is by far the most comfortable & lightest bike I've owned, and I'm sure worlds better than the one I saw in 1986. The quality & functionality of modern bikes is there, and good deals can still be found. I do dread the cost of going to disc brakes though.
Regarding bringing bikes into stores, I was in the grocery store when a woman walked in with her front-box (kid-hauler) cargo bike, put the groceries in the box, paid for them, walked the bike out and rode home. I got to thinking that it wasn't much bigger than a grocery cart and regarding dirt on the tires being brought in, that describes grocery carts too. She was smart to prevent the theft of her ~$8,000 bike.
It’s completely subjective - if you’ve got a lot of spare money and spend a lot of time on the bike, the value equation works out. If you are struggling to pay rent, absolutely not. It’s all diminishing returns at the high end anyway, said as someone with a new custom geo Ti bike!
I value my bike more than I would value a car. I don't get stuck in traffic, my health improves and I don't have all the other costs associated with owing a car (Maintenance, tyres, gas, taxes) I don't have a car by choice, and I'm more inclined to buy an expensive bike than a car.
I am a former South African bike shop owner, and I can weigh in on several points here. As a country known for its crime, the number of times I had customers call to be rescued after being jacked for their bikes, or hear that they had been held at gunpoint is scary. We had one group ride in the south of Johannesburg where two vehicles with men armed with AK47's stopped the group, and chose select bikes, then left with them. I fear this will take off (although not a violently) in the UK. As for the cost of things, the only thing I can liken the cycling industry to is a snake eating its own tail. The cost of things is too high, small bike shops will never he able to compete with big online stores, and the online stores will never give the personal service. I disagree that bikes have a 40% margin, and as a former shop owner, if I had made 40% on a bike I sold, I'd have been thrilled. Thats not to say the manufacturers dont make those profit levels, however, I would have thought it would have been higher. Profit is not a bad word, and shops dont run on charity...but honestly, the way the prices are going, its ridiculous. Sports Direct...great for price hunters. Terrible for cyclists who enjoy their local bike shops...remember my snake analogy?!
I watched that GCN video and it kind of just seemed like they were trying to legitimize biking as a serious thing by excusing the high costs against motorcycles, an industry people already take seriously. As a poor, the thing I find frustrating about most of bike RUclips is that almost no one aims their content on people like me. I couldn't hope to afford any of the bikes or groupsets. The RUclips space makes it seem like you need more expensive gear than you do to have a good time or even participate in events at most people's skill level. I recently got an RC 120 (which I could only afford because it was on sale and my SO paid half) and I think you guys are the only channel who gave it praise. Every other channel sort of just aims you at bikes that would cost over 2k in Canada but the RC 120 is more bike than I will ever need. The MTB space is even worse honestly, I'm riding a 7 year old GT hardtail and kept up on trail for a while weekend with multiple groups using 4-7k full sus and 8-10k ebikes.
This makes the videos of testing decathlon bikes even more important - there are brands and bikes for normal budgets, you don't need to have a Specalized bike. Consumers have bought too much into the marketing hype and are willingly paying those prices. Same with ebikes, the brands we have are not ever featured in mainstream media but our bikes are just right for what we need them for and fractions of the price of the Highstreet brands...
GCN crews can be out of touch sometimes. Generally speaking, i like their content. But when Alex tried to use a dura ace crank during a bike build, it makes me wonder hows that crank gonna fit into the budget theme.
GMBN has the same problem too. I watched a budget DH build, and they just pulled out a Rock Shox fork that they "had lying around" and also a 26" wheelset they were given to review for a separate video. Only thing legit about the build was the Nukeproof Hardtail frame, which you can buy for pretty cheap from Wiggle/CRC.
I am not sure what these experts are referring to when they say there are no bikes available for non racers or no bikes that are affordable and will last or no comfortable bikes. Sure the brands like to market their fastest and fanciest. But almost pump out tons of bread and butter $700 to $1200 hybrids and basic mountain bikes. Aren’t those bikes for regular people? In the drop bar market, we are in the golden age of comfortable options because of gravel bikes. Not too long ago even low end road bikes had rock hard 23mm tires. Also mopeds don’t have to made to a practical weight where a human can pedal it efficiently or lift it up steps. They can be made with cheaper high ten or carbon steel. An affordable super durable bike can be made, just high tensile steel, cast and forged steel parts and quality bearings. It will weigh 40-50 lbs, and slow to accelerate, but once momentum is up, it can go reasonably fast.
Worth noting that the Harley Iron's Evo 883 was built on American union labor rates, too -- and it still costs less than a high-end bicycle! But then this is why when it comes to bicycles, I love a good fixed gear -- very hard to spend over $4k in that niche and mine was under half that figure for a shop build. If I can buy a handmade custom fixed-gear made in my own US city for less than an average road bike... Yeah this industry's got something screwy going on. Also, strangely, I live in one of the most dangerous cities in the US -- Baltimore -- and bicycle or motorcycle crime is incredibly rare here outside of very certain niches of motorcycle (dirt bikes, sport bikes) and ebikes. I've heard of one or two folks in the district I commute to getting seatposts stolen but for whatever reason it's not A Thing here to steal bicycles. But then Bmore is one of those cities where most of the danger is between people who are already involved in or around criminal activity and just existing is pretty safe besides occasional petty theft
One of the my favorite RUclipsrs Fortnine recently made a video explaining why mountain bikes cost about the same as entry level motorbikes (right around 8k). You can get a new Iron 883 for less than 10k, and used in good condition for 5-6k. I’m fairly new to cycling so I’d love to know whether the used market isn’t as large in this sport - maybe thats allowing manufacturers to set the price higher and higher?
Yeah that channel rocks. Used market in carbon is not good for reasons you can't tell how abused it is really. I am not buying someone else's time carbon unless I know how abused it was. In gravel bikes used people do stuff I never would do.
The used market for bicycles is more difficult than that for motorcycles because of a whole pile of factors, though one of them is frame sizing - doesn't matter if my unicorn vintage bicycle is available at a perfect price if it's a size 59 frame and I'm a 51-54 in basically all brands. Also, a lot easier to hold on to an unused bicycle in the back of a shed or basement than an unused motorcycle because it doesn't need stuff like license fees, insurance, etc
Interesting comment about Brother Cycles. I recently built up a Mr Wooden (rim brake 650b). The frame needed very little prep (facing etc) great paint as well. The frame was £699.00 , I got some 650b wheels (105 11sp hubs, Sapim race spokes and Thorn rims).for 220 quidish, made up by SJS. All in with the 11 speed GRX/ultegra drivetrain and shifters (which I robbed from another bike) it has come in about £1,600 (if I had to buy everything new probably £2,200ish) This is not a “cheap” bike, but it is comfortable, durable and 42mm Panaracer Parimotos it is quite quick. So reasonable builds can be had and 650b is great on or off road!
Yeah, here in South Africa the muggings happen with guns, Just up the road from me we've had several muggings in the last few months. One lady was hit in the face with a handgun which obviously made her fall and the bike was hijacked with her phone. Sad world we live in. Stay safe out there. with regards to stripping the bikes, we've seen reports of people who got hijacked or their bikes stolen seeing them being advertised on Facebook market place within a day already. At least some arrests have been made.
You guys made the same mistake gcn made. They compared the highest end road bikes that are 10k plus, to low mid end motored bikes. You see the high end road bikes are available to buy, but take a high end motor bike that the pros race and your talking custom parts that could exceed 10k. Then there's less of an argument in that comparison. Bottom line, yes the mark up is a bit extreme but consumers are very stupid, it's clear to see in today's society, especially with electronic tech devices like I phones and computers that loose value over night. Any way point made feel free to mention it in your next show. I have no idea but I would guess some of those high end motor bikes have 100k in em.
I gave up watching GCN a couple of months ago, feel like they just recycle the same couple of videos again and again with a different person presenting
So they educated you enough that you didn’t need the instruction. Seems like they have done a good job. I’m in the same boat but come back for the documentary vids that appear now and again.
About registering bikes: In Japan every bike is registered and has a QR Code which the police and bike Shops can scan and see the owner. It is illegal to ride a non registered bike and bike theft is non existent. I repeatedly saw road bikes not locked up in front of shops and nothing happened. That's how it should be (Obvously there are more factors that play into this l, crime being very low in Japan in general for example but still its a good idea in my opinion)
I have high end bikes, however I get them 2nd hand which takes the edge off the new sticker prices. This means my SL7 is a couple of years old but that doesn’t matter.
I ride an old Dutch bike, 3 speed with kick back brake for transport and shopping and race bikes for training and racing only. With the Dutch bike you can park it anywhere with simple chain lock and it’s always there when you return. The bike cost £250 and I have had it over 12 years. Fully enclosed chain and hub gears means minimal servicing required and only one change of tyres. The answer is get the right bike for the job if you don’t need a race bike don’t buy one.
I remember huge road safety campaigns around seatbelts and Think! for motorbikes and children crossing roads or drink driving. I can't recall any campaigns for cyclists. Although just having checked, their website does mention us.
Just looked back at the old "Think once, think twice, think bike" Its surprising that it only featured motorbikes as it is equally applicable to pedal cycles.
Returning to the hobby and am blown away by the astronomical prices. The companies are blind to real world economics of consumers. When I went to school we were warned about bike thieves and that was back in the 90s
It’s all about consumerism, my newest bike is 12 years old, the best bike gets refreshed a little bit each year the winter bike is still 9speed and works fine
In Japan, you have to register your bike when and where you buy it. It costs 500yen. If you buy a second hand bicycle, then you need to register it at the local koban (police box).
In reality, that rarely works. Nothing is digital and basically, you can just remove the sticker and re-register under your name in a shop with a fake receipt.
The comfort thing is 100% true when you look at uneven asphalt with potholes and some cobblestones mixed in. When I ride a route on my commuter with drop bars on 35mm tires, compared to the same route on my 150mm trail bike in an aero position with both hands on the stem, it is much easier to keep the momentum going while using less energy.
I'm with Nick 650b Is the most underrated product, especially in mountain bikes everyone bangs on about 29ers like 27.5 is rubbish but give me 650b on my gravel bike and MTB's everyday
We have a road outside my apartment in Dublin which they turned half into a bike lane and its now a one way street. Well it should be. Now it's just a really difficult to get out of lane when a car comes barrelling down the new bike lane at 50kmph and those stupid little bumps that devide the bike lane and road make it difficult to get out of the way
I learn something useful here everytime. Thanks Nic for mentioning your preference for 650B wheels. I'm about to buy an extra wheelset so as to be able to quickly convert my road Triban RC120 (thanks Jimmi for the earlier episode, I'm lovin' it) to a gravel bike on weekends. I still have an MTB with 26" inch wheels that I love on single track and I tear up the city on a folding 20" Tern, so I was all ears about the smaller wheels for gravel. Now I've found some and together with 40mm gravel tires and the 5mm shorter 32/48 crankset I found for the Triban, I'll have decreased toe overlap and will even gain some room so to not have to remove my road mudguards when converting to gravel. I've also found an 11-36 cassette that Microshift says I can use with their long cage RD-M46L, lowering my granny gear from 27 to 24 gear inches. But I'm tempted to go even lower by trying Microshift's 11/38 cassette, even if it ends up 2T more than their max lower cog. Anybody got any thoughts about that?
I'm totally in accord with what Nick said about comfort and durability of bikes. After seeing damage to multiple friends' carbon bikes and my own plus several high profile failures and recalls from all the major manufacturers, I'm done with carbon frames. Going back to steel.
@@redauwg911 I'm not sure lightness is really the forte of steel bikes but it's the Fairlight Strael I'm going for, Lightness is overrated any way. I've lost 3kg on the carnivore diet recently so I'm up on the overall system weight even with a steel bike!
@@ashleyhouse9690 I lost 12kg on the whole foods plant based diet. And never had so much energy. I like to go on 100 mile rides now, I could only do 60 before.. Will check out that bike thank you for the suggestion
Armed bike robbery has become a problem. This reminds me of an incident in Oakland Hills, CA (USA) where a woman was robbed by 3 individuals at gunpoint for her mountain bike. It happened in 2022 when bikes were still hard to get, so I don't know if that added to its allure. It was a heartbreaking story as she just got the bike for Christmas. It happened in April.
Best thing thing about my haibike trekking 4 is the pannier rack with an integrated light and a bai pannier bag... Bloody brilliant, laptop, change of clothes, tools, spares battery bank for my phone. Bloody brilliant.
I'm always taking my bike with me when I get in to a supermarket. if they try to make a scene I'm like this is worth this much. If your market is taking the responsibility in case being stolen I can leave it outside. 99% they like ohhh okay go inside
They tried to argue that my wheels were dirty from the roads. I pointed out that anything that was on my bike, was also on the shopping carts, the difference is that my bike gets cleaned once a week, and the shopping cart is washed zero times.
Wary of people who tell folks what they should and shouldn't do. Let people buy the bikes they want. If a bike inspires an "average" cyclist to pretend they're a world tour pro and sprint down their home-street at the end of their ride, then great! More power to 'em. Let them work out the fit the way they want. Prices are wild, though. No argument there.
The prices are ruining the bike market in my opinion. £10k for a carbon frame with Dura Ace and all of a sudden you're now looking at £2k for an aluminium frame with 105.
Considering Specialized tried to sue a cafe in Canada called "Roubaix", that had existed years before Specialized even had a bike called Roubaix, and was infact named after the original Roubaix in France, says a lot about not taking on Amercian bike brands unless you have a lot of money to spare.
Most of their costs are marketing, sponsorships and salaries. The bikes cost is a very low % of the final price you see at the shops, even half price offers for older models nets them a margin.
That's not quite the how that legal affair occured@@Muppetkeeper. Lots of the negative press re Specialized in that case came from folk who had zero idea regarding IP/copyright and automatically sided with the small guy. When I looked into it, he was clearly in the wrong. Via my work, I need to be au fait with such things because it's a huge problem.
To think I could buy a motorbike with an engine, computers, big wheels double front brakes and everything in between for the same price as a frame with tech by far less advanced is mad
Just watched their video myself, last night, after having listened to this chat the other day, and came here to see if it had already been mentioned. Particularly interesting were the costs on tooling for carbon, and (for small manufacturers) shipping costs during manufacture if you don’t have the nearby ecosystem.
Interesting chat. Guess my two cents is they'd maybe stop constantly making new groupsets with extra gears etc if a lot of riders weren't so obsessed with having the latest kit the pros do. People could just love what they already have rather than always wanting better
Using Scott Foil as an example, if you bought any of their 10spd 1st edition Di2 bikes in the 2010's, you cannot buy crucial replacement parts today. Shimano stopped manufacturing and selling 10 speed chainrings (I called Shimano). So, let's say you've resisted all the marketing to buy the latest and greatest over the years, cared for your bike, etc. eventually you are forced to upgrade. This is true of older older bikes, of course, but the lifecycle of components has shortened. It is not in Shimano's interest to support replacement parts and trickle down, but to make the old obsolete and the new readily available, shiny, and in your face. If you have an 11 speed bike, the release of 12 speed is not innovation, but setting an expiration date on your groupset.
Bogus point. There are plenty of good non Shimano brand 10 speed chainrings available . If you must stick to few big brands for replacement parts, you are part of the problem.
@@williamko4751The largest parts manufacturer ceasing to supply parts is not bogus, but I agree that other brands play an important part in market! But since it's so easy, please do share a few links to 53/39 10sp chainrings compatible with Shimano FC-6700! I could use 'em!
Actually Shimano stopped manufacturing ULTEGRA and DA specific chainrings in the old 10s 5 bolt arrangement, not that they are hard to find NOS if you want them (took me 10 seconds and Google) they still make 105 for now and non series ones that are compatible. Also Shimano 11s chainrings are spaced the same and are backwards compatible so you can always just get a new 11s chainset which will probably work out cheaper and lighter. I do know what you are getting at but Shimano is a terrible example to use, of all the big manufactures they are the only ones that make components or compatible equivalents available truly long term, they also make small individual parts available and easy to obtain so you can repair rather than replace alongside publishing the technical docs to undertake those repairs to anyone who who wants them not just "authorised dealers/mechanics". Not sure why you think "It is not in Shimano's interest" to support "trickle down" it's basically their whole business model, it allows people to upgrade and benefit from previous gen' higher tier groupsets and remain at the same level or even drop down a tier to keep an older bike going at reduced cost without losing any of the benefits.
@@bbbikesbrooklynStronglight still makes aluminium chainrings for bolted Shimano 5 arm cranks, I just do not know if they, offer the exact ones you would need.
The only reason I've continued to upgrade after 10 speed groupsets has been out of fear of lack of support for older components. I'm currently using 11s Chorus and I never wish I had more gear ratios.
People who think 650b are overrated, have never heard of toe overlap or never had a problem fitting bags on a bike. 650b is the difference between constantly jamming my toes against the front wheel and being able to ride techy trails with no worries at all. It's the difference between a 9l seatbag and 12l which is a whole other world. They can also pry my 47mm tires out of my cold dead hands which roll surprisingly great on tarmac and are brilliant on dirt. To be fair, I still run 700c on my city gravel bike, because it has a more forgiving geometry in regards to toe overlap and it has a rack.
End of the day, no one's being forced to buy the ridiculous bikes. Clearly people are buying them or they wouldn't offer them in the first place. Ironically there are better deals than ever before on affordable bikes. People just love to whine these days lol.
Also just to add, prices for everything are crazy these days. It's called mass inflation, stop voting for such terrible politicians who love to spend money on everything.
In Norway theres a national record anyone can look up. I don't know if shops look it up regurarly, but it's highly encouraged to look up bikes when buying second hand. I've asked for the serial number before meeting up when I'm looking for new second hand bikes for myself or friends, and souble checkwd when I meet up to check out the bike
I just bought a new pair of Sidi genius 10 at 120$ under retail, you should have heard the guy at the shop when I asked if he was still making a profit 😂
KEEP IN RIGHT!! CADE MEDIA IS DOING THAT SO FAR!! GCN IS JUST A COMMERCIAL CHANNEL & GETTING DAMN BORING!!! 95% WATCHING IT DONT OWN 5% OF THAT BIKES!!
$3000+ for a bike frame that takes 44 hours to make is NOT overpriced whatsoever. If you divide the price by the hours, what you end up with is the fully burdened labor rate. It takes a space to make that stuff in, equipment to make it with and very skilled labor. The frame has to be designed/configured. There administrative cost and obviously a profit margin.
As someone who is an engineer with a wife on a management position in sales I can say you are wrong too. 1. Profit margins in bike industry are huge. If you get the RRP of a shimano groupset for example as a shop you get more than 30% profit. And that's good. It's normal, when you take in for consideration storage cost, etc. In automotive the profit margins for parts are 28 to 32 percent. 2. The margins on new cars though is 8 to 5 percent for the dealership. But they get sales bonuses etc. 3. The marketing costs both in automotive and bike industry are kind of the same. They're on both sides of the equation. 4. SALE TARGETS - that is the main problem, targets you need to reach for the shareholders. When covid happened the sales went up AF. And the funds so that. So many companies got the investors money in that period and now they need to get it back. And the targets ? Well you need 10 percent growth don't you 😮 5. If we're willing to buy a 10k bike they will sell us a 10k bike. If you were selling your 2nd hand bike for 5k and someone would offer you 7, would you go that's to much ? Or happily give them your account number? 6. We have a saying that's means : maybe I'm not fast but at least I look fast😂 people are lazy snobs and would rather buy the 5 Watts saving and marketing BS than go to gym for 3 months and work in them self. It's easy to buy a lighter faster more aero bike, than stick to a training routine. 7. Luxury goods sell. We feel good knowing we have a 10k bike. Right now van rysel has a 5k euro bike, full carbon, aero frame, deep wheels ultegra everything, great value for money but you don't see them riding around. But you see sworks and custom trek everywhere To sum up, the industry is ripping us off, but we're happily letting them just too look good near a coffeshop.
Average speed are a good metric over extended rides and routes you do regularly. I typically ride 90 to 120 km with a total ascent of around 1% of the ride distance. On most of these rides I average out at 20 km/h ( I am 70 years of age). But right now I am a bit slower at 18.5 to 19 km/h but as the spring comes my fitness will increase and my average speed will climb back up. At the end of a season I might hit 21 km/h average, but then I am also 1 year older and I can assure you things do not always get better, hence, if at the end of 2024, I will again be at 21 km/h I will be extremely happy and content. By the way, my rides are mostly in the Scottish Borders or out to the sea and back inland and this area seem to have this inherent tilt of 1%. Nearly all of my rides end up with this 0.8 to 1.2% ascent of ride distance. Has anybody else noticed this ?
I have a 24 year old Specialized Stumpjumper that I have no plans to replace. My road bike is a used single speed for which I paid $150. I do plan at some point to get a multi-speed road bike, but it will probably be a used one as well.
Jimmy commented that the bike companies "are engineering products to sell new stuff" ~ yep, pretty much every industry in existence, cycling is not unique here.
It's funny to me that this is the thing people have decided to be angry at GCN about, and not their years of misinformation, poor bike maintenance ideas, promoting muc-off, not informing viewers about paid adverts. No, people have chosen to be angry about their dodgy opinions.
@@theankiteroonie_6373 Specifically their chain lubes which actively increase wear rate to both the cassette and chain by attracting contaminants and abrasives. We have known for years that dry wax is the best lubricant. GCN took muc-offs money for a long time and told their viewers that it was the best lube and then one day last year when they suddenly started promoting wax. So they have knowingly promoted a product that wrecks drivetrains at a far greater rate than wax.
I’ve been having muc off on motorbike and push bike since in came out, and nearly all their products are excellent. The only thing they really fall down on is their chain lubes in my opinion.
Just got my bike stolen last week... and it was taken across the border to France where the Swiss police can't do anything. Infuriatingly frustrating! And my insurance will only pay the base cost of the bike, which was bought a 50% discount and refuse to pay all the gear I added. Cranks, mudguards, lights, GPS tracker, new tires, clipless pedals, etc. Looking into ebikes and here in Switzerland the prices are just insane! Nothing half-decent for less than 4 or 5k CHF! That's nuts! And leasings are already here. But since I'm retired due to disability, they won't allow me to take those. I even discovered a local manufacturer and was super excited until I discovered their bikes cost 16k.
One thing to consider when pointing out how expensive modern bicycles are compared to motorcycles, is that the shift to carbon fiber parts, in particular, require a completely new manufacturing process, which requires all new machines, all of which cost huge amounts of money. Motorcycles for the most part continue to be made using the same basic parts being built by the same pieces of equipment. Sure, there are some innovative parts and those cycles then have much higher costs. The other thing to realize is that a person can still buy a very good quality bicycle, maybe even better quality than in the past, for very little money. It may not have the lightest, strongest, frame or wheel sets, etc., but it will be more than fine for general purpose biking.
My issue with GCN (as someone who enjoys 80% of their videos), is that they don't have the view of consumer a lot of times, being ex pros and having a lot of sponsoring. You shouldn't argue why bikes are expensive, but why they should be cheaper
Name one industry where prices are less than 5 years ago...
@@dominicbritt Look how inexpensive televisions have become. Sure, there are OLED sets that are quite expensive, but an average 55" LED 4K set can be had for a small fraction of what such a set cost just a few years ago when such sets were high-end. In the bike industry, the bikes that were high end a few years ago should be enjoying the same price cuts, but they aren't. Instead, they're hardly being built at all because the industry doesn't want us to buy such bikes.
@@rangersmith4652 not a really good example, high end tv always have a new feature or tech to sell while you can get older tech cheaply made for peanuts. That's the same as taking a Trek VS a Walmart bike...
@@rangersmith4652in the last few years those prices also stagnated. Btw you can still buy cheap bikes like you still can buy expensive tv’s. People just don’t buy enough cheap bikes.
I like their content and their challenges
One thing getting left out of the Motorcycle argument is all the law standards they have to meet, emissions, safety, you name it. Nearly everything on a Motorcycle needs to be certified and compliant and many different countries have different laws and you must know them all. I don't think this is the case at all for bicycle manufacturers. That's largely a self-regulated industry, no?
I believe there are safety standard that manufactures have to meet to sell in the EU.
@@rob-c.these are CE certifications for safety. There are safety regulations.
Motorcycles have economies of scale on their side as well. Bicycles are assembled from components by hand, and I doubt its anything like the volumes of motorcycles.
Carbon as such as frame, wheel material, has been around for 20 years! where is the trickle down that they are talking about? This is just GREED from Marketing and CEOs that want to scam you all.
Motorbikes can reach much higher prices than bikes, 300kph easily, so the components also needs to be tested a lot more and as you mentioned emission and safety regulations. yes, you can buy a scooter for 4K and a bike for 15k, but usually people buy cheaper bikes and more expensive motorbikes.
GCN changed quite a bit once much of its content became sponsored. When they are riding climbs in Mallorca and they spend a segment showing the bikes they are riding, the video is effectively a 20 or 30 minute commercial for those bikes. Being paid directly by the industry leads to defending the industry whether conscious or not. This morning Ollie and Alex were talking about indoor training. At some point Ollie says, "don't get the $40 turbo trainer, get the $400 Wahoo Kicker". I don't think it's even conscious for them at this point, they are just in the mode of sell, sell, sell. Today I will ride my Giant Tempo spinning bike just as I have for each of the previous 20 winters. GCN has some good content but always keep in mind what they are selling.
I loved the video about the "spontaneous" visit at alex house where he presented his "perma" wahoo indoor cycling set up, just to ride the same bike which was supposed to be permanently in his indoor set up in the next video outdoors. Ofc he had only the latest wahoo stuff looking like it was never ever used at his house.
Since GCN+ went bankrupt the yt channel in german and english just became trash tv.
Even topics which are interesting to me like "does to much sugar/gels during training cause diabetes" is presented in a way to sell stuff. For me its even hard to watch their insta stuff now, because its just about hitting your face with a canyon bike as much as they can. I dont mind them riding canyon, orbea or what ever manufacturer is paying them to ride. But i want them to be honest about stuff and not tell me how great something is just because they get payed for it.
Exactly. GCN has some good content but you have to remember it's wrapped in a commercial so they are only going to say good things about that product. For reviews I like channels like The Ride with Ben Delaney, his reviews are honest. He has a clothing sponsor so he does not review clothing at all. He does not have a bike or tire sponsor so those review as his own opinions, he is not receiving any money for his review.
GCN has been garbage for years now.
Ollie is an absolute snob, that's why. If it isn't the cream of the crop stuff, he doesn't like it. I have a dumb trainer and speed+cadence sensors, whole set up cost me £70. I get the same training as I would with a smart trainer.
@@nicolas2838 That's a little unfair I consider my trainer setup permeant in the sense that the Trainer, Climb, Rocker, mat etc. All sit in front of a dedicated screen most of the time, and there is usually *A* bike on it, just not always the same bike.
I’m not a cyclist. I have an old old mountain bike that’s broken and can’t go out. But I’ve find this channel recently and have loved every minute of the content and discussions! Thanks!
To be fair, there was also a GCN video a couple of months ago "the bike you want vs. the bike you need" or videos on what to look out if you buy second hand. The presenters are all quite humble characters, who know how privileged they are to ride the bikes they are riding.
They are also well informed on bicycles but don't know the first thing about motorcycles.
Most of them are normal humble people, Simon did all those videos with the cheap ebike and loved it. Ollie on the other hand is a legit snob
@@gregmcnicoll5520 I think Ollie is just super into the technical geeky side of things and it comes across as being snobby. I don't really get what people expect out of gcn. I think they usually do a pretty good job making the point that you don't need an expensive bike or upgrades. They wouldn't exist if they didn't take marketing money and advertise products though.
Worth noting that those types of videos are very few and far between - it's mostly selling far and wide.
The Muck Off 5ltr motorcycle cleaner (2 for £25) when I got it, is identical to the vastly more expensive bike version. I checked with Muck Off and also checked the very detailed spec sheets
Cyclists are rich cows!!
This sounds like Bicycle equivalent of Pink Tax, Razors, Shampoo, bodywash that are marketed for female cosumers cost somewhat more than the normal one.
@@TheRimBrakeGuymore like they’re getting ripped off!
car cleaner is even cheaper and better
I visited Bogotá, Colombia, recently, where I was thrilled to discover that, in addition to the city's lauded bicycle infrastructure, practically every parking lot or garage in the city has space allocated for bicycles, usually with pretty decent security arrangements, and available at very low cost. I usually paid around US$1-$2 to leave my rented bicycle for several hours, and a few of them I used even charged $0 for bikes.
Well, it's a poor country.
Marketing and R & D are the 2 words that manufacturers use to excuse their greed
Profit due to inflated sales prices suckers are willing to pay, some of this goes back into R&D to create 'more marketing opportunies' to sucker more people.
Putting it bluntly, the bike industry...the people at the top are just trying to make money. They don't care about value or the consumer and the reality is, they are deliberately making bikes more fragile which coincides with lower weight so they will be more disposable, and the consumer will need to buy a replacement bicycle more quickly. Btw, planned obsolescence is the business model of auto manufacturers now as well as society devolves to a more disposable society.
I add 'future trickle down' to your list
they could just stop, paying everyone having 1k followers on insta to ride their bike or wear their kits and it already would save so much wasted money.
All those companies want to become apple of the bike industrie. But they dont understand that there was one person creating apple out of unique ideas no one else had. And the marketing and price tag was just an additional feature to the product, not the main feature of uniqueness. Since this one person is gone apple isnt the same unique company and the myth about it, is slowly fading.
When specialized did win 10 grand tours in a row they could argue to be the most expensive company because they had the best bike. Or when the test values of their bikes in an independent windtunnel did stand out, while their bikes weight 6.8 kg. Even when their bikes are super robust or you can get a free service when ever you wish too.
Its not the case, so the price is just a fantasy product of a marketing guy.
For the trek bike on the other hand a lot of the price is included in the color scheme.
Especially when the Chinese factory has its own designers doing a yearly catalog every year to suggest to the bike companies.. The business model is ridiculously funny the more you dig into it.
Applies to a lot of industries, like the word "emergency"
With Nick's point about cars being a weapon and educating drivers about it, as someone who was seriously injured after getting hit by a negligent driver, the number of people who blamed ME for even riding my bike in the first place was shocking. I even quit my job over one of my supervisors insulting me behind my back about it. This was in the US where the attitude is bikes are children's toys, so we definitely need an educational advertising campaign to teach people about road safety especially with regards to bikes.
Funny that bikes are considered kids toys in this U.S., yet most Americans seem to want to dtive around in something similar to a Tonka Toy Truck.
@@whitej85 Don't get me started… I just visited the UK for the first time and almost wanted to cry over seeing how many practical sized cars there were and how much better the drivers were overall (that's not a joke). The number of Tonka Trucks and massive SUVs in big cities in the US is a disaster for road safety, but everyone wants to blame the bikes.
@@ncc1107 completely agree 👍 I’m from the Uk but even we are starting to see the proliferation of larger&taller pickups and SUVs. When need authorities to be putting sensible restrictions on the size of vehicles.
Great episode! Well done! I have a Brompton and have an apple tag taped to it after I was almost mugged in London around 6am a couple of years ago. 6 guys on e-bikes. They seemed to be looking for mobiles and I only got away as the first 4 didn’t notice me and the 2 that did couldn’t decide if they wanted my bike or wanted to stay with their group. It was just a short chase but I was shooketh! Took me a few weeks before cycling again.
That wasn’t the case when thieves broke into our bike shed and stole my colleague’s bike I’d borrowed to train for a bike holiday 😢
The issue is greedflation. During covid companies realized that people would pay more due to demand and they are still trying to maintain those prices. Many industries are now paying the price for this greed and we are seeing more and more stock and super discounts. The issue is I doubt prices will ever go down just same MSRP with discounts eventually.
Lol it's not "greedflation". That's literally called supply and demand.
If people are willing to keep paying the increasing cost, then it behooves you to raise your price because you will end up having more orders than you can handle, which can trash your supply chain and have a really negative outlook on your product if it is never in stock.
The problem is the consumer paying for it. Vote with your wallet. As he said, things sell for what people are prepared to pay.
Just because we're out of covid and people are still paying the price isn't companies fault, people have to STOP buying until prices come back down.
It's basic economics.
@@Real28 I love basic economics lessons from someone who doesn't understand economics. But to explain and I will say it slowly if it was pure inflation then industries would not have made record profits during these time. They were exploiting inflation to create an excessive profits. Look at GPUs, bikes, cars, etc they all make record profits during this "supposed lack of supply" they weren't selling at inflation prices they were pricing things 3-5x inflation and raking in money. If inflation was up 20% you would expect a 20% increase in price not 50 to 100% increase.
This is just basic economics.
@@MrMuggslythat little rant had absolutely no relation to anything he said
@@demonstructieActually he hit the nail on the head. My local grocery store wants $5 for a loaf of bread that used to be 2.50 and costs 1.00 to make today instead of 50cents it used to cost before "inflation". The correct new price should be $3, not $5 - that extra 2 bucks is someone's Porsche money.
The new Path Less Pedaled podcast with Jeff Frane did a really good job of getting into the weeds of getting a frame manufactured
Fred TV
I'm impressed by how grounded the folks at Path Less Pedaled are.
Well worth a watch!
I thought the same thing! I thought it was very informative. Also, check out some of GC Performance youtube channel. He goes into comparing bike prices several years ago until now.
Jeff's a cool dude, local to me. Huge on hosting rides and giving back to the community. The other day he had some people from Maxway, where they build their frames, over to the home shop of Wilde for a tour. It's nice to buy from a brand you can put faces to
GCN is a marketing tool.
Everyone of there video has a P on the thumbnail for paid partnership…
Without sponsoring they couldn´t produce videos in the scale they are from worldwide.
Well said man!
Most of the videos here are specially when they ask you subscribe
I started following GCN around 2013-14.
Back then it was talking about how to do maintenance tasks on your own bikes, how to improve your FTP, riding in groups basics, training plans.
Now it's all silly challenges, crazy bikes, justifying huge price increases.
I have a friend who works in the industry, that mentioned to me that shipping to Canada from China used to cost $2000 CDN for a container, and during COVID increased to $41,000 CDN. This is a major factor for increased cost of bicycles in North America.
Maybe it's time to look at manufacturing closer to home?
That would be about right as shipping was one of the biggest hit industries.
As you said, bikes are worth what people will pay for them... and for about two years many people were willing to spend quite a lot on bikes. Specialized, Trek, Cannondale and others raised prices 20%-40% during the pandemic as demand spiked due to the closure of indoor exercise options. Consumers were flush with cash as they couldn't spend it on vacations / eating out or were given disposable money through stimulus checks. This was compounded by lower bike supply due to manufacturing disruptions. Higher demand + lower supply = higher prices. As a result, an SWorks Tarmac went from $10k in 2019 to $14k in 2021. Trek started selling a Madone build with 105 Di2 for $8k. Scott is weirdly selling their top-end Foil for $16k. The Allez Sprint with 105 mechanical and garbage wheels iss $3k. Used bikes were briefly selling for full retail on TPC.
The other thing that happened is that the industry stopped selling reasonable entry-level bikes. A big factor in that is the rise of electronic groups. Shimano and SRAM have both basically stopped selling reasonably priced mechanical groupsets. 105 Di2 sells for roughly triple was 105 mechanical used to cost. Even 105 mechanical is now selling for what Dura Ace used to cost in 2015. SRAM has completely abandoned enthusiast mechanical. There are very few new or revised entry-level bikes. The Scott Speedster and Giant Contend are still being sold but are fairly ancient designs. The base Specialized Allez has become more of a commuter-focused road bike with a cheap build.
Now all of that has been reversed: inflation has sucked excess cash out of everyone's wallets, bikes are wildly overstocked (and panic-bought pandemic bikes have flooded the used market) and anyone that wanted a bike has already purchased one. Demand has cratered and now prices are falling. All of this was extremely predictible in 2020, and was predicted by basically every industry analyst. I don't think this is ending any time soon, this correction will last at least through 2024. The market for higher-end bikes just isn't that big and the induced demand and lower supply of the pandemic was a once-in-a-lifetime collision of factors. Prices have already started to moderate across the industry, but they clearly have further to fall.
There is a whole market of commuter bikes no one ever talks about. It’s all about road bikes. Bianchi for example have a huge commuter bike portfolio and likely sell more of them than performance road bikes. For companies dedicated to performance road bikes with nothing else to fall back on they will be hurting now.
I sure get why people are annoyed with GCN helping justify stupid expensive bikes.
Completely agree about groupsets. It’s not just initial cost of 12 speed, it’s the ongoing maintenance costs look at the cost of a 12 speed cassette vs a 10 speed. You really don’t need it either 2x10 is perfect. Don’t get me started on wireless either 😅
Oh and completely internal routing too through an integrated cockpit . Go get your headset serviced and see how much that costs you
Just do it your self, it is not difficult and you can give yourself a pat on the back.@@a1white
I grew up on 1x 5 speed mechanical and it was fine.... I now have 2x 2x 12speed electronic group-sets and its still fine...What does that actually matter to anyone other than me?
@@gerrymcbride6429 it doesn’t, have what the hell you want but the comment was about how to keep bike costs down. 2x12 di2 is lovely I’m sure, but will cost you more when parts need replacing.
@@a1whiteor do it yourself and it costs you bugger all.
When someone says "that frameset only actually costs $400 to make" means they don't actually know what they are talking about. Yes there is marketing, but also R&D- Also, you have to have a fundamental understanding of what it actually costs to make molds (each size is a different mold) and what it takes to figure out how to hand lay-up the frame in said mold, hand prep & paint it, ship it over from asia (remember, shipping prices exploded during covid and have barely gone down) and cost to warehouse and distribute the products. After all that, the dealer has to make enough money to keep the doors open & employees fed... I work for a major brand that also owns and operates a ton of stores in the USA- and rent and bills have to get paid, as well as me! So yes, the raw cost may be, let's say under $1,000- but they are running a business, so yeah, they have to make some money. I think if there is one key thing you can blame the industry for is making aero, concealed cables so appealing. 5 years ago nobody cared- now if i put a bike up with hidden cables and one without, the customer will always be drawn to the nicer looking bike... Just the way it is!
Let start with the problem of 10 million different BB standards 😭
Put another way, with a few dozen different "standards," there really is NO standard.
Headset's are even worse :(
@@nicvieri2627 if you ignore all the proprietary crap especially with internal cable routing through the headset there's really only 3 types and a couple different sizes.
EC (external cup) ZS (zero stack) and IS (integrated)
but remember that in the motorcycle and automotive industries there is also very little commonality amongst similar components.
@@gerrymcbride6429 I can buy a Yamaha mt09 for less than a top end bike from trek
And a mt07 for less than a well specced carbon road bike from trek
I don't know what Nick is talking about when he says alloy bikes don't last as long. Six years ago, I bought what was then a nearly 30 year old Cannondale. I put a modern 11spd groupset on it. That first year, I put 5,000 miles on it. It's still in perfect shape today. For charity I am 6'4" and 200 lbs. I don't know if newer aluminum frames are just not as durable as they were.
Thanks Jimmi , Nic, Emily and "Emily from the future " AND..I got a Redshift stem , after seeing Jimmi get all their stuff , and I love it ! I am OAF , crashed in July and seperated a shoulder and its not the same . I got the stem as a gift , put it on and immediately noticed......nothing , at first . All the small bumps were gone , but after? I didn't ache half as much , my whole upper body felt better , Thanks again. I learn a lot from you folks . P.S. wishing Francis and his dad the best...I am going to have a biopsy tomorrow , and then decide on my own treatment . And so it goes , eh?
These are some of the reasons that led me to totally change my mindset for my last build. No carbon but steel. Maximize fun potential and functionality over performance. I don't run races, I go on rides as often as I can in whatever weather I have, so having a dynamo/fenders seemed like a great idea. I definitely have more fun riding, less stress thinking about the bike failing, getting stolen and the bike ride just as good as any carbon bike.
Your bike makes you feel like a kid again. Maybe that’s why people think about spending money on it as soon as they get out of the saddle. When the downtube got fat, it was the beginning of the end; a new surface for branding you could see a block away. A new gaudiness for an object that had always been beautifully simple. It does, however, make it easier to read the logos as you pass them going up the hill.
I have just come back from a trip to Japan with a visit to the Shimano museum in Osaka to boot. What I noticed during my travels is the high number of road bikes with rim brakes, and group sets such as Tiagra and Claris. That includes the road bikes in cities used for commuting as well as those on famous routes such as the Shiminami Kaido. Perhaps it comes down to the same reason that Heineken is a cheap beer in the Netherlands, but marketed as an exclusive beer in other countries?
650B tyres were originally a road tyre used on French bicycles. They were demi-ballon tyres used on Randonneur, Porteur and Velo de Ville bicycles. Britain used the 26 inch wheel size, 26 x 1 1/4 for sports/racing bikes and 26 x 1 3/8 for sports/comuter bikes. These were Endrick pattern rims for use with rim brakes. These older wheel sizes were replaced by 27 x 1 1/4 and then 700C. 650B tyres on Randonneur bikes still has a following in France, USA and Japan. The use of 650B tyres on gravel bikes was developed by Jan Heine in the USA who had tyres manufactured by Panaracer in Japan for his Compass Cycles brand. Jan also had steel bike frames built with greater clearances to prove the concept, as well as experimenting with tread patterns and tyre widths on the tyres to better deal with the type of gravel surface. As a result of his work, his idea of gravel riding and gravel bikes was jumped on as the next marketing fad by the cycle industry.
Really having fun listening to Nic, who really supports my philosophy of cycling!
Another great episode! Nic's a great addition to the podcast team.
Prime reason for 12-13 speed cassettes is that they're mated with 1X on the front.
...which is equally pointless if it costs more.
1x makes sense in MTB to keep the chain from dropping. Seems less important on road disciplines.
@@briansmith2125 💯
@@fenderbenderspecial My sentiment exactly.
@@fenderbenderspecial Arguably, rather pointless with the clutch-equipped derailleurs. And without shifting in the front you have to shift across the WHOLE range when you get from a descent to a steep incline, and WAIT until the proper cog is engaged. On a triple, you'd click the shifter 2 times and have low-range IMMEDIATELY.
1x is stupid in any application.
This episode spoke to my core on so many levels - from bikes being geared (literally!!!) to regular folks, to Jimmi's confessionary love of the hated step-child of the 883 Iron (as a previous owner of one with a 1200 SCREAMING EAGLE **que eagle sound, which is actually red-tailed-HAWK sound** conversion). Keep 'em coming, it's great company as I ride the currently cold, desolate plains of the great American midwest, albeit currently sad and snowless. King Regards, my friends!
Bike mugging are a thing in California as well.
Another common type of bike theft is to follow cyclists home, then to break into homes for the bikes. And because it’s hard to simply move, the bike robbers just go to the same homes repeatedly.
Years ago two of my friends bought a mountain bike each. One was about 5ft tall and the other was 6ft 4in tall. The bike shop in Eastleigh, Hampshire sold each of them the exactly same sized bike! So one had a lot of seatpin showing, and the other shorter guy had none showing! The bike shop obviously had no idea!!!!
Phone theft reduced massively when Apple and Google started making it possible to remotely disable your phone. I'd love an equivalent where I could remotely set my derailleurs into the hardest gear and then brick them. (Actually, what I want is the bikes from Virtual Light - a massive capacitor in a steel bike frame which charges while you ride. When you park up, attach the capacitor output to the frame to make an open circuit...)
In about 1986 I saw a $2600 Kestrel in my local bike shop, the first all carbon frame bike. I bought a $500 Scwinn Aluminum. Thirty some years later, in 2018 I paid $1700 for a carbon fiber Kestrel RT1000 with a $500 store credit, effectivly bringing the price to $1200. The Kestrel replaced a 20 year old Aluminum Cannoondale R500 that cost $1050 and weighted about 2kg more. The Kestrel is by far the most comfortable & lightest bike I've owned, and I'm sure worlds better than the one I saw in 1986. The quality & functionality of modern bikes is there, and good deals can still be found. I do dread the cost of going to disc brakes though.
Regarding bringing bikes into stores, I was in the grocery store when a woman walked in with her front-box (kid-hauler) cargo bike, put the groceries in the box, paid for them, walked the bike out and rode home. I got to thinking that it wasn't much bigger than a grocery cart and regarding dirt on the tires being brought in, that describes grocery carts too. She was smart to prevent the theft of her ~$8,000 bike.
The most sane podcast for cycling; grounded takes for us amateurs and pro news for those into the racing side.
Buying a bike that costs more than a car when you’re not a pro rider making money from it is crazy
Older dudes making money like to think they could have been pros with the right bike.
💀
Short answer: no
@@LaurentiusTriariuslol you literally just described the retired dude with 12 bikes that I know😂😂😂
It’s completely subjective - if you’ve got a lot of spare money and spend a lot of time on the bike, the value equation works out. If you are struggling to pay rent, absolutely not. It’s all diminishing returns at the high end anyway, said as someone with a new custom geo Ti bike!
I value my bike more than I would value a car. I don't get stuck in traffic, my health improves and I don't have all the other costs associated with owing a car (Maintenance, tyres, gas, taxes)
I don't have a car by choice, and I'm more inclined to buy an expensive bike than a car.
@@paopixel You're bike doesn't have tyres!?
I am a former South African bike shop owner, and I can weigh in on several points here. As a country known for its crime, the number of times I had customers call to be rescued after being jacked for their bikes, or hear that they had been held at gunpoint is scary. We had one group ride in the south of Johannesburg where two vehicles with men armed with AK47's stopped the group, and chose select bikes, then left with them. I fear this will take off (although not a violently) in the UK.
As for the cost of things, the only thing I can liken the cycling industry to is a snake eating its own tail. The cost of things is too high, small bike shops will never he able to compete with big online stores, and the online stores will never give the personal service. I disagree that bikes have a 40% margin, and as a former shop owner, if I had made 40% on a bike I sold, I'd have been thrilled. Thats not to say the manufacturers dont make those profit levels, however, I would have thought it would have been higher. Profit is not a bad word, and shops dont run on charity...but honestly, the way the prices are going, its ridiculous.
Sports Direct...great for price hunters. Terrible for cyclists who enjoy their local bike shops...remember my snake analogy?!
I watched that GCN video and it kind of just seemed like they were trying to legitimize biking as a serious thing by excusing the high costs against motorcycles, an industry people already take seriously.
As a poor, the thing I find frustrating about most of bike RUclips is that almost no one aims their content on people like me. I couldn't hope to afford any of the bikes or groupsets. The RUclips space makes it seem like you need more expensive gear than you do to have a good time or even participate in events at most people's skill level. I recently got an RC 120 (which I could only afford because it was on sale and my SO paid half) and I think you guys are the only channel who gave it praise. Every other channel sort of just aims you at bikes that would cost over 2k in Canada but the RC 120 is more bike than I will ever need. The MTB space is even worse honestly, I'm riding a 7 year old GT hardtail and kept up on trail for a while weekend with multiple groups using 4-7k full sus and 8-10k ebikes.
Check Seth from Berm Peak. He is the type of guy who tells you why a department store bike might be what you need to start MTB.
@@leinadster should have called him out too. He's fantastic
TBF to GCN, they _did_ praise the RC 120 in a couple of their videos, though a couple of them are years old.
You can't say that modern bikes are overpriced when your major sponsors are Pinarello, Canyon and Orbea.
This makes the videos of testing decathlon bikes even more important - there are brands and bikes for normal budgets, you don't need to have a Specalized bike.
Consumers have bought too much into the marketing hype and are willingly paying those prices. Same with ebikes, the brands we have are not ever featured in mainstream media but our bikes are just right for what we need them for and fractions of the price of the Highstreet brands...
Bicycles cost as much as they do , is because they were selling. The prices probably will go down, do to the sales slowing. Free enterprise.
This is the only podcast I ever listen to. It’s so easy to relate to you guys.
GCN crews can be out of touch sometimes. Generally speaking, i like their content. But when Alex tried to use a dura ace crank during a bike build, it makes me wonder hows that crank gonna fit into the budget theme.
GMBN has the same problem too. I watched a budget DH build, and they just pulled out a Rock Shox fork that they "had lying around" and also a 26" wheelset they were given to review for a separate video.
Only thing legit about the build was the Nukeproof Hardtail frame, which you can buy for pretty cheap from Wiggle/CRC.
I am not sure what these experts are referring to when they say there are no bikes available for non racers or no bikes that are affordable and will last or no comfortable bikes. Sure the brands like to market their fastest and fanciest. But almost pump out tons of bread and butter $700 to $1200 hybrids and basic mountain bikes. Aren’t those bikes for regular people? In the drop bar market, we are in the golden age of comfortable options because of gravel bikes. Not too long ago even low end road bikes had rock hard 23mm tires.
Also mopeds don’t have to made to a practical weight where a human can pedal it efficiently or lift it up steps. They can be made with cheaper high ten or carbon steel. An affordable super durable bike can be made, just high tensile steel, cast and forged steel parts and quality bearings. It will weigh 40-50 lbs, and slow to accelerate, but once momentum is up, it can go reasonably fast.
Worth noting that the Harley Iron's Evo 883 was built on American union labor rates, too -- and it still costs less than a high-end bicycle! But then this is why when it comes to bicycles, I love a good fixed gear -- very hard to spend over $4k in that niche and mine was under half that figure for a shop build. If I can buy a handmade custom fixed-gear made in my own US city for less than an average road bike... Yeah this industry's got something screwy going on.
Also, strangely, I live in one of the most dangerous cities in the US -- Baltimore -- and bicycle or motorcycle crime is incredibly rare here outside of very certain niches of motorcycle (dirt bikes, sport bikes) and ebikes. I've heard of one or two folks in the district I commute to getting seatposts stolen but for whatever reason it's not A Thing here to steal bicycles. But then Bmore is one of those cities where most of the danger is between people who are already involved in or around criminal activity and just existing is pretty safe besides occasional petty theft
This is one of the best topics I’ve heard.
Great video.
Great guest.😂
One of the my favorite RUclipsrs Fortnine recently made a video explaining why mountain bikes cost about the same as entry level motorbikes (right around 8k). You can get a new Iron 883 for less than 10k, and used in good condition for 5-6k. I’m fairly new to cycling so I’d love to know whether the used market isn’t as large in this sport - maybe thats allowing manufacturers to set the price higher and higher?
Yeah that channel rocks. Used market in carbon is not good for reasons you can't tell how abused it is really. I am not buying someone else's time carbon unless I know how abused it was. In gravel bikes used people do stuff I never would do.
The used market for bicycles is more difficult than that for motorcycles because of a whole pile of factors, though one of them is frame sizing - doesn't matter if my unicorn vintage bicycle is available at a perfect price if it's a size 59 frame and I'm a 51-54 in basically all brands. Also, a lot easier to hold on to an unused bicycle in the back of a shed or basement than an unused motorcycle because it doesn't need stuff like license fees, insurance, etc
Interesting comment about Brother Cycles. I recently built up a Mr Wooden (rim brake 650b). The frame needed very little prep (facing etc) great paint as well. The frame was £699.00 , I got some 650b wheels (105 11sp hubs, Sapim race spokes and Thorn rims).for 220 quidish, made up by SJS. All in with the 11 speed GRX/ultegra drivetrain and shifters (which I robbed from another bike) it has come in about £1,600 (if I had to buy everything new probably £2,200ish) This is not a “cheap” bike, but it is comfortable, durable and 42mm Panaracer Parimotos it is quite quick. So reasonable builds can be had and 650b is great on or off road!
Yeah, here in South Africa the muggings happen with guns, Just up the road from me we've had several muggings in the last few months. One lady was hit in the face with a handgun which obviously made her fall and the bike was hijacked with her phone.
Sad world we live in. Stay safe out there.
with regards to stripping the bikes, we've seen reports of people who got hijacked or their bikes stolen seeing them being advertised on Facebook market place within a day already.
At least some arrests have been made.
You guys made the same mistake gcn made. They compared the highest end road bikes that are 10k plus, to low mid end motored bikes. You see the high end road bikes are available to buy, but take a high end motor bike that the pros race and your talking custom parts that could exceed 10k. Then there's less of an argument in that comparison. Bottom line, yes the mark up is a bit extreme but consumers are very stupid, it's clear to see in today's society, especially with electronic tech devices like I phones and computers that loose value over night. Any way point made feel free to mention it in your next show. I have no idea but I would guess some of those high end motor bikes have 100k in em.
I gave up watching GCN a couple of months ago, feel like they just recycle the same couple of videos again and again with a different person presenting
So they educated you enough that you didn’t need the instruction. Seems like they have done a good job. I’m in the same boat but come back for the documentary vids that appear now and again.
That's a bit unfair. They produce a lot of entertaining content. Sure, some of it is better than others. But it's all completely free!
@@nacnud2323 maybe I’m looking at it all wrong. I just couldn’t watch another tyre/rim width or vs pro type video
Happy New Year Wild ones! love the content, and Nick's take, would be awesome to have the four of you in a future pod!
About registering bikes: In Japan every bike is registered and has a QR Code which the police and bike Shops can scan and see the owner. It is illegal to ride a non registered bike and bike theft is non existent. I repeatedly saw road bikes not locked up in front of shops and nothing happened.
That's how it should be
(Obvously there are more factors that play into this l, crime being very low in Japan in general for example but still its a good idea in my opinion)
I have high end bikes, however I get them 2nd hand which takes the edge off the new sticker prices. This means my SL7 is a couple of years old but that doesn’t matter.
I ride an old Dutch bike, 3 speed with kick back brake for transport and shopping and race bikes for training and racing only. With the Dutch bike you can park it anywhere with simple chain lock and it’s always there when you return. The bike cost £250 and I have had it over 12 years. Fully enclosed chain and hub gears means minimal servicing required and only one change of tyres. The answer is get the right bike for the job if you don’t need a race bike don’t buy one.
This. But as a Dutchie I've grown up with city bikes so it's a no-brainer for me. My race bike is for fun, I have a workhorse for the other stuff.
Really many good subjects here.. i'm catching up on missing some and great show guys. I am sharing most of the opinions and liking the tips.
I remember huge road safety campaigns around seatbelts and Think! for motorbikes and children crossing roads or drink driving.
I can't recall any campaigns for cyclists. Although just having checked, their website does mention us.
Just looked back at the old "Think once, think twice, think bike" Its surprising that it only featured motorbikes as it is equally applicable to pedal cycles.
A solution to prevent robbery is probably more social welfare and less neoliberalism.
Never had such issues in GER in over 30y of riding.
Returning to the hobby and am blown away by the astronomical prices. The companies are blind to real world economics of consumers. When I went to school we were warned about bike thieves and that was back in the 90s
😆😆
Welcome in hell, need new chain? 189£😂 PRO VERSION
It’s all about consumerism, my newest bike is 12 years old, the best bike gets refreshed a little bit each year the winter bike is still 9speed and works fine
In Japan, you have to register your bike when and where you buy it. It costs 500yen.
If you buy a second hand bicycle, then you need to register it at the local koban (police box).
In reality, that rarely works. Nothing is digital and basically, you can just remove the sticker and re-register under your name in a shop with a fake receipt.
@@AquidoSquido The bike comes up as being registered under another name.
The comfort thing is 100% true when you look at uneven asphalt with potholes and some cobblestones mixed in.
When I ride a route on my commuter with drop bars on 35mm tires, compared to the same route on my 150mm trail bike in an aero position with both hands on the stem, it is much easier to keep the momentum going while using less energy.
the most honest video . good work. most people sense gcn is just marketing
I'm with Nick 650b Is the most underrated product, especially in mountain bikes everyone bangs on about 29ers like 27.5 is rubbish but give me 650b on my gravel bike and MTB's everyday
😅 Check recycling
Absolutely we need attitude adjustment among road users. Roads are for everyone, and motorists need to be re-taught this.
We have a road outside my apartment in Dublin which they turned half into a bike lane and its now a one way street. Well it should be. Now it's just a really difficult to get out of lane when a car comes barrelling down the new bike lane at 50kmph and those stupid little bumps that devide the bike lane and road make it difficult to get out of the way
I learn something useful here everytime. Thanks Nic for mentioning your preference for 650B wheels. I'm about to buy an extra wheelset so as to be able to quickly convert my road Triban RC120 (thanks Jimmi for the earlier episode, I'm lovin' it) to a gravel bike on weekends. I still have an MTB with 26" inch wheels that I love on single track and I tear up the city on a folding 20" Tern, so I was all ears about the smaller wheels for gravel. Now I've found some and together with 40mm gravel tires and the 5mm shorter 32/48 crankset I found for the Triban, I'll have decreased toe overlap and will even gain some room so to not have to remove my road mudguards when converting to gravel. I've also found an 11-36 cassette that Microshift says I can use with their long cage RD-M46L, lowering my granny gear from 27 to 24 gear inches. But I'm tempted to go even lower by trying Microshift's 11/38 cassette, even if it ends up 2T more than their max lower cog.
Anybody got any thoughts about that?
I'm totally in accord with what Nick said about comfort and durability of bikes. After seeing damage to multiple friends' carbon bikes and my own plus several high profile failures and recalls from all the major manufacturers, I'm done with carbon frames. Going back to steel.
#steelisreal
who makes a good quality light steel bike
@@redauwg911 I'm not sure lightness is really the forte of steel bikes but it's the Fairlight Strael I'm going for, Lightness is overrated any way. I've lost 3kg on the carnivore diet recently so I'm up on the overall system weight even with a steel bike!
@@redauwg911 I only know Surly, but even their bikes start at like $1000
@@ashleyhouse9690 I lost 12kg on the whole foods plant based diet. And never had so much energy. I like to go on 100 mile rides now, I could only do 60 before.. Will check out that bike thank you for the suggestion
Loving the podcast. Some underrated vs overrated suggestions:
Tailfin
Dynamo Wheels
Scotland
Wales
Mullet groupsets
Armed bike robbery has become a problem. This reminds me of an incident in Oakland Hills, CA (USA) where a woman was robbed by 3 individuals at gunpoint for her mountain bike. It happened in 2022 when bikes were still hard to get, so I don't know if that added to its allure. It was a heartbreaking story as she just got the bike for Christmas. It happened in April.
There have been quite a number of bikejackings in the Oalkand/Berkeley, sadly. I've known [not well] a few of the victims.
Yeah sadly it has happened frequently, on the Redwood road side, Grizzly peak, Joaquin Miller and Skyline. Don't ride solo up there...
Excellent podcast, thanks. Excellent questions and answers at end - they were very relevant
Love Nick. More Nick please!
Best thing thing about my haibike trekking 4 is the pannier rack with an integrated light and a bai pannier bag... Bloody brilliant, laptop, change of clothes, tools, spares battery bank for my phone. Bloody brilliant.
I'm always taking my bike with me when I get in to a supermarket. if they try to make a scene I'm like this is worth this much. If your market is taking the responsibility in case being stolen I can leave it outside. 99% they like ohhh okay go inside
They tried to argue that my wheels were dirty from the roads. I pointed out that anything that was on my bike, was also on the shopping carts, the difference is that my bike gets cleaned once a week, and the shopping cart is washed zero times.
Lol wish I could do that in my country. Sadly people go hard on anything out of the norm here.
I appreciate the weekly postings.
Wary of people who tell folks what they should and shouldn't do. Let people buy the bikes they want. If a bike inspires an "average" cyclist to pretend they're a world tour pro and sprint down their home-street at the end of their ride, then great! More power to 'em. Let them work out the fit the way they want.
Prices are wild, though. No argument there.
If it is subtracting value from other peoples bike purchases then I think weekend warriors could knock 5k off what they were gonna spend
The prices are ruining the bike market in my opinion. £10k for a carbon frame with Dura Ace and all of a sudden you're now looking at £2k for an aluminium frame with 105.
An aluminum bike with 105 and shit wheels shouldn’t cost 2300+
I don’t want electronic shifting as a standard.
we need someone to leak the real production cost of the big brands
Considering Specialized tried to sue a cafe in Canada called "Roubaix", that had existed years before Specialized even had a bike called Roubaix, and was infact named after the original Roubaix in France, says a lot about not taking on Amercian bike brands unless you have a lot of money to spare.
Most of their costs are marketing, sponsorships and salaries. The bikes cost is a very low % of the final price you see at the shops, even half price offers for older models nets them a margin.
That's not quite the how that legal affair occured@@Muppetkeeper. Lots of the negative press re Specialized in that case came from folk who had zero idea regarding IP/copyright and automatically sided with the small guy. When I looked into it, he was clearly in the wrong. Via my work, I need to be au fait with such things because it's a huge problem.
To think I could buy a motorbike with an engine, computers, big wheels double front brakes and everything in between for the same price as a frame with tech by far less advanced is mad
PathLessPedaled just had a very interesting video related to the subject of the costs involved in making bikes, highly recommended!
Just watched their video myself, last night, after having listened to this chat the other day, and came here to see if it had already been mentioned.
Particularly interesting were the costs on tooling for carbon, and (for small manufacturers) shipping costs during manufacture if you don’t have the nearby ecosystem.
Interesting chat. Guess my two cents is they'd maybe stop constantly making new groupsets with extra gears etc if a lot of riders weren't so obsessed with having the latest kit the pros do. People could just love what they already have rather than always wanting better
Using Scott Foil as an example, if you bought any of their 10spd 1st edition Di2 bikes in the 2010's, you cannot buy crucial replacement parts today. Shimano stopped manufacturing and selling 10 speed chainrings (I called Shimano). So, let's say you've resisted all the marketing to buy the latest and greatest over the years, cared for your bike, etc. eventually you are forced to upgrade. This is true of older older bikes, of course, but the lifecycle of components has shortened. It is not in Shimano's interest to support replacement parts and trickle down, but to make the old obsolete and the new readily available, shiny, and in your face.
If you have an 11 speed bike, the release of 12 speed is not innovation, but setting an expiration date on your groupset.
Bogus point. There are plenty of good non Shimano brand 10 speed chainrings available . If you must stick to few big brands for replacement parts, you are part of the problem.
@@williamko4751The largest parts manufacturer ceasing to supply parts is not bogus, but I agree that other brands play an important part in market! But since it's so easy, please do share a few links to 53/39 10sp chainrings compatible with Shimano FC-6700! I could use 'em!
Actually Shimano stopped manufacturing ULTEGRA and DA specific chainrings in the old 10s 5 bolt arrangement, not that they are hard to find NOS if you want them (took me 10 seconds and Google) they still make 105 for now and non series ones that are compatible. Also Shimano 11s chainrings are spaced the same and are backwards compatible so you can always just get a new 11s chainset which will probably work out cheaper and lighter.
I do know what you are getting at but Shimano is a terrible example to use, of all the big manufactures they are the only ones that make components or compatible equivalents available truly long term, they also make small individual parts available and easy to obtain so you can repair rather than replace alongside publishing the technical docs to undertake those repairs to anyone who who wants them not just "authorised dealers/mechanics". Not sure why you think "It is not in Shimano's interest" to support "trickle down" it's basically their whole business model, it allows people to upgrade and benefit from previous gen' higher tier groupsets and remain at the same level or even drop down a tier to keep an older bike going at reduced cost without losing any of the benefits.
@@chris1275cc I appreciate this perspective! Esp. the POV on how the trickle down fuels Shimano’s business.
Learning from the internet is good! Cheers
@@bbbikesbrooklynStronglight still makes aluminium chainrings for bolted Shimano 5 arm cranks, I just do not know if they, offer the exact ones you would need.
The only reason I've continued to upgrade after 10 speed groupsets has been out of fear of lack of support for older components. I'm currently using 11s Chorus and I never wish I had more gear ratios.
Great to have Nic' s wisdom and viewpoints on the channel this week. Some insightful and candid opinions expressed by Nic, Jimmi & Emily. Nice one! 👍👏
People who think 650b are overrated, have never heard of toe overlap or never had a problem fitting bags on a bike. 650b is the difference between constantly jamming my toes against the front wheel and being able to ride techy trails with no worries at all. It's the difference between a 9l seatbag and 12l which is a whole other world.
They can also pry my 47mm tires out of my cold dead hands which roll surprisingly great on tarmac and are brilliant on dirt.
To be fair, I still run 700c on my city gravel bike, because it has a more forgiving geometry in regards to toe overlap and it has a rack.
End of the day, no one's being forced to buy the ridiculous bikes. Clearly people are buying them or they wouldn't offer them in the first place. Ironically there are better deals than ever before on affordable bikes. People just love to whine these days lol.
Also just to add, prices for everything are crazy these days. It's called mass inflation, stop voting for such terrible politicians who love to spend money on everything.
In Norway theres a national record anyone can look up. I don't know if shops look it up regurarly, but it's highly encouraged to look up bikes when buying second hand. I've asked for the serial number before meeting up when I'm looking for new second hand bikes for myself or friends, and souble checkwd when I meet up to check out the bike
Yep, love GCN but them, or anyone for that matter, trying to justify prices is laughable.
Especially as all the presenters ride pro level bikes!
I just bought a new pair of Sidi genius 10 at 120$ under retail, you should have heard the guy at the shop when I asked if he was still making a profit 😂
KEEP IN RIGHT!! CADE MEDIA IS DOING THAT SO FAR!! GCN IS JUST A COMMERCIAL CHANNEL & GETTING DAMN BORING!!! 95% WATCHING IT DONT OWN 5% OF THAT BIKES!!
$3000+ for a bike frame that takes 44 hours to make is NOT overpriced whatsoever. If you divide the price by the hours, what you end up with is the fully burdened labor rate. It takes a space to make that stuff in, equipment to make it with and very skilled labor. The frame has to be designed/configured. There administrative cost and obviously a profit margin.
The frame design is no different from any other frame any other brand puts out.
...and nobody even said that was man hours.
Nor are they making just one fame every 44 hours
As someone who is an engineer with a wife on a management position in sales I can say you are wrong too.
1. Profit margins in bike industry are huge. If you get the RRP of a shimano groupset for example as a shop you get more than 30% profit. And that's good. It's normal, when you take in for consideration storage cost, etc. In automotive the profit margins for parts are 28 to 32 percent.
2. The margins on new cars though is 8 to 5 percent for the dealership. But they get sales bonuses etc.
3. The marketing costs both in automotive and bike industry are kind of the same. They're on both sides of the equation.
4. SALE TARGETS - that is the main problem, targets you need to reach for the shareholders. When covid happened the sales went up AF. And the funds so that. So many companies got the investors money in that period and now they need to get it back.
And the targets ? Well you need 10 percent growth don't you 😮
5. If we're willing to buy a 10k bike they will sell us a 10k bike. If you were selling your 2nd hand bike for 5k and someone would offer you 7, would you go that's to much ? Or happily give them your account number?
6. We have a saying that's means : maybe I'm not fast but at least I look fast😂 people are lazy snobs and would rather buy the 5 Watts saving and marketing BS than go to gym for 3 months and work in them self. It's easy to buy a lighter faster more aero bike, than stick to a training routine.
7. Luxury goods sell. We feel good knowing we have a 10k bike. Right now van rysel has a 5k euro bike, full carbon, aero frame, deep wheels ultegra everything, great value for money but you don't see them riding around. But you see sworks and custom trek everywhere
To sum up, the industry is ripping us off, but we're happily letting them just too look good near a coffeshop.
Average speed are a good metric over extended rides and routes you do regularly. I typically ride 90 to 120 km with a total ascent of around 1% of the ride distance. On most of these rides I average out at 20 km/h ( I am 70 years of age). But right now I am a bit slower at 18.5 to 19 km/h but as the spring comes my fitness will increase and my average speed will climb back up. At the end of a season I might hit 21 km/h average, but then I am also 1 year older and I can assure you things do not always get better, hence, if at the end of 2024, I will again be at 21 km/h I will be extremely happy and content.
By the way, my rides are mostly in the Scottish Borders or out to the sea and back inland and this area seem to have this inherent tilt of 1%. Nearly all of my rides end up with this 0.8 to 1.2% ascent of ride distance. Has anybody else noticed this ?
I have a 24 year old Specialized Stumpjumper that I have no plans to replace. My road bike is a used single speed for which I paid $150. I do plan at some point to get a multi-speed road bike, but it will probably be a used one as well.
Jimmy commented that the bike companies "are engineering products to sell new stuff" ~ yep, pretty much every industry in existence, cycling is not unique here.
Really enjoyed it again, Cheers Colin.
It's funny to me that this is the thing people have decided to be angry at GCN about, and not their years of misinformation, poor bike maintenance ideas, promoting muc-off, not informing viewers about paid adverts. No, people have chosen to be angry about their dodgy opinions.
Wait whats wrong with muc off? Just curious
@@theankiteroonie_6373 Specifically their chain lubes which actively increase wear rate to both the cassette and chain by attracting contaminants and abrasives. We have known for years that dry wax is the best lubricant. GCN took muc-offs money for a long time and told their viewers that it was the best lube and then one day last year when they suddenly started promoting wax. So they have knowingly promoted a product that wrecks drivetrains at a far greater rate than wax.
I’ve been having muc off on motorbike and push bike since in came out, and nearly all their products are excellent. The only thing they really fall down on is their chain lubes in my opinion.
Just got my bike stolen last week... and it was taken across the border to France where the Swiss police can't do anything. Infuriatingly frustrating! And my insurance will only pay the base cost of the bike, which was bought a 50% discount and refuse to pay all the gear I added. Cranks, mudguards, lights, GPS tracker, new tires, clipless pedals, etc.
Looking into ebikes and here in Switzerland the prices are just insane! Nothing half-decent for less than 4 or 5k CHF! That's nuts! And leasings are already here. But since I'm retired due to disability, they won't allow me to take those. I even discovered a local manufacturer and was super excited until I discovered their bikes cost 16k.
If you think people were angry about this video you need to check out the comment section of their video about hookless rims 😆
One thing to consider when pointing out how expensive modern bicycles are compared to motorcycles, is that the shift to carbon fiber parts, in particular, require a completely new manufacturing process, which requires all new machines, all of which cost huge amounts of money. Motorcycles for the most part continue to be made using the same basic parts being built by the same pieces of equipment. Sure, there are some innovative parts and those cycles then have much higher costs. The other thing to realize is that a person can still buy a very good quality bicycle, maybe even better quality than in the past, for very little money. It may not have the lightest, strongest, frame or wheel sets, etc., but it will be more than fine for general purpose biking.
Average people dont drive f1 cars, average cyclist dont need expensive carbon disked bikes.
Nick talks a lot of sense! Down to earth and honest!
That's because he is from New Zealand
GCN is a joke. They are the tabloid equivalent of bike channels.
I feel like this is a bit of nonsense you can get a bike as low as $50 to as much as you want to spend. It all depends on what you want