Man, you just blew right past the point of this conversation. If you’re trying to learn and are struggling to afford gear, a scope with good turrets and an appropriate reticle is perfect for grasping the basics.
@@holdleftedgeandsendit9351 Yes. But that’s not what your first comment implied. I agree with your reply: get the best glass you can afford, but get the right features for your application.
@TheDude1764 more features aren't always a good thing. there are some piles of junk out there loaded with features. arken for example they track well turrets are nice the reticles suck and the glass is meh but I could still hit steel with the one i had at 500 on a 22 lr because the scopes do track well. if one is going to go cheap go cheaper on the rifle and spend more on glass or buy one then save and buy the other one
Glass over features for me. I shoot big things relatively close. My most used scopes are a Leupold FX-3 6x42 with a #1 reticle, a Leupold VX-II 3-9x40 with a #1 reticle, an IOR 4x32 with a #1 reticle, and a S&B 6x42 with a #2 reticle. These work great for me, and you can't even buy things like this anymore. I'm glad I don't need more scopes.
Features depend on usage, glass quality lets you acquire and see the target. My first scope and the only one I used until 3 years ago was a schmidt and bender 6x42 mildot I may have acquired from a military friend. When I was teaching a friend to shoot this year I found a $200 feature rich scope 4-16x42 mildot, it’s what I knew and felt confident teaching with. I’ve since used many scopes, leupold 6.5-20x42, a snb 3-12x50 AI, a few vortex and Athlon and sightron models. People say buy once cry once and I get the sentiment if you know what you want a thing to do, but I would also say getting a cheap feature filled scope can benefit the learning curve so you know what to buy once. Also using good glass and poor glass let’s you appreciate the difference. The $200 4-16x42 mildot was brilliant out to 300m and usable out to 500m. Yes the leupold vx3 6.5-20x42 is amazing an cutting through the crap at 500m and is really easy to use when you have pre-ranged or use a range finder but guessing is still hard for may people. And then teaching wind calls from environmental factors is still very hard.
So glad you did this video as I felt like a follow-up was needed from the # 17. BTW, I still have that same Thrive scope on an older 12FV (stainless) chambered in .223 and actually like the retical as it's my preferred type of reticle. For this reason, I utilize a scope that's a little under the radar (Sightmark Latitude 6.25-25×56 SFP) F-Class with their F-Class reticle. I primarily shoot .22-250 and .243 and love dialing my shots so this works very well for me. Thanks again for so much good content.
Yup completely agree each gun and scope combination have a purpose. I do have 3 arkens and all the glass on them seems good. But honestly there just very bulky I got the Athlon helos on my 6.5 Grendel and love it.
The old discontinued Philippine made Vortex can't be beat for their current clearance prices. They are far superior to the current Chinese made Vortex scopes.
I've been stumping for the Athlon BTR Gen2 2-12 for a few years now as possibly the best value-for-your-money generalist scope, but I was lucky to get an Ares ETR 3-18 last year for under $900 all in, and it sure is a big upgrade. Now that dang siren call of beautiful glass has me looking hungrily at the upcoming March 1.5-15, but the price makes my heart ache. Really considering cost/benefit at that end of the scale. Anyway, just found your channel recently and have been really enjoying learning, agreeing, and sometimes disagreeing (you need to get an EP scope from Arken before you write them off for good) with the points you bring up. Thanks for the great content!
From using a scope for my profession, quality glass generally comes with quality scope mechanics. If you shoot low light, quality glass is everything. It can be very expensive. Your average shooter and hunter can get by with a lower cost scope.
Meopta Optika 5 and 6 are excellent low light scopes and are actually priced right. They are much better than anything compared you typical find that are made in China but the Meoptas are made in Europe/Czech republic.
Trying to balance glass quality and features and keep in budget ain't easy sometimes. Nikon used to do both in their buckmaster series and their mil-dot in that series was and still an excellent scope. It set the bar for a lot of makers to beat. Unfortunately they no longer produce scopes.
@@commonsense5709 that I did not know. They originally said that they would. Sounds like a good class action lawsuits and possibly more. They could be breaking both federal and state laws depending on the state. The FTC might be even have something to say on it as Nikon is still a very active company. It's one thing if they went out of business, another just shutting down a line item.
Just finishing up a 350 legend. Will be a hog gun or deer at 100-200 yards. Field of view is important for when they scatter at first shot it needs to be able to acquire other targets and dispatch them as well ( hogs) . Also thinking maybe getting into thermal day/ night scope? Your thoughts.recommendations for optics.
Swfa would be heavy on the internal quality but low on features. Meaning they track extremely well, but don't have a bunch of modern wiz bang features.
I’m definitely a fan of my Bushnell AR and it works well for my intended uses on the setup it’s on. Good thinks to think about when building a solid setup. More often than not, people get a bullet launcher cause it looks cool or they’ve heard good things about that then the optic is an afterthought. If you think of the intended purpose and situations it will be used in going into it, one could save a lot of money in the long run.
The Element Helix (6-24x50) has an extremely poor eye box and glass is below average for it's price. It only has roughly 60moa of total elevation travel in a 30mm tube. If you buy it whenever they go on sale for $275 SFP or $325 FFP or from dealers who offer cheapest discount prices over the phone it might be worth it but not for regular price IMHO. You need to look through one yourself before making a decision to buy due to mediocre glass and very poor eye box. There are far better options from other brands out there in their price point. Same goes fir the Titan 5-25x56 if you buy in sale for $550 but not worth $799 no way IMHO.
Thanks for the video, but we are talking apples to oranges, we will all agree a $3K scope will be a beauty but is it affordable to the average gun owner " nope ", and you would not put it on a $500 hunting rile either, but if you have deep pockets go for it. I would think glass quality would be the priority for whatever your intended purpose is for the scope, and with your purpose in mind, what bells & whistles will you really need ?, my rule of thumb is, if, you have a $200 rile you buy a $200 scope, if you have a $3,000 rifle you buy a $3,000 scope ..................... everyone sees everything differently when looking through a scope, so buy what you can afford, and what your eyes tell you it's good !!
Always buy the absolute best in price class based on first hand long term users. Don't get ripped off buying inferior overpriced Chinese made scopes and only choose their best ones and only from certain brands.
Always glass quality. You can't hit what you can't see. I've peered through many scopes sighting in hunting rifles. I have to say the best glass I looked through was a simple fixed 4x Zeiss scope . Leupold 3x9 that I thought was good did not compare. That was back in 1984. Things have changed since then but will never forget that 4x Zeiss scope. My vision was 20/20 back then. Could see 25 Caliber bullet holes at 100 yards easy.
Not a fan of the "Off Brands" honestly. If you walk down a F-Class line you will see the the same optics on most of the rifles, all by the same major brands and costing around $3000. Generally a reason for that. I bought a Vortex Diamondback 25 zoom while back looking at the features at the price point but its sitting on top of the safe just like your Arken. The daytime image clarity is lacking and the dawn/dusk picture may be worse. Parallax looks right @75yard setting when you are really at 100, and it needs to stay at 75 yards for every range or it goes so blurry image is not even recognizable. Tried coyote hunting with it and between the sight box and poor image I had to pack it up almost 40 minutes before the legal hours were over for the day. Put a Nightforce NX8 4-32x on it and never looked back Buy once cry once I suppose.. beats kicking yourself for the wasted money paying for a cheap product that sits on top of your safe and never gets used. Here's a tip for you. put that Arken on the next firearm you are selling and recover your hard earned cash, the online hype should help sell it faster for you! I've seen quite a few of these Arkens on various content creators setups and it got me thinking as well. If I had that many scopes on the table i would do a video comparison at -30 and see if any of the cheap ones track and adjust properly or zoom tighten up so much you need 50lbs of torque to move them! Had a terrible time with the cheapos in extreme conditions. Thanks for the honest video.
I'd simply just as a rule of thumb avoid anything that says Made in China on it even if it's a US brand scope with just a few exceptions based on first hand side by side comparisons.
Interesting topic for the video. Choosing a scope is always a process of boiling down to bang for the buck. Of course, I know guys who's first and often only criteria is price. Glass quality is barely part of the conversation, it just has to be $250 or less, even though they could afford Nightforce.
Not a lot of distance judgment needed for 22-250 at 200. Exactly what I use (same retical but Bushnell 3-9) and I nail everthing out to 250. After a long spell I try targets but never seems to vary from original zero. Nice video. Cheers.
I always watch. Most of the time it’s over my budget. I want to see Varmints at 100 yards and bullet holes on paper there also with small calibers 20 and 17 . Oh yes I wear glasses. 😊
When I bought my 6.5 Creedmoor, I was thinking about 'features' in a scope. The owner of the shop where I bought the rifle knows what I hunt, how and where. He refused to sell me a "Christmas tree" scope, would not allow me to buy anything except simple, duplex crosshairs. I chose glass quality over features. Never been sorry.
There are some things in life you don't compromise on.... I think a rifle scope is one of those things!! You should not have to choose between glass quality and whether it tracks correctly and returns to zero. Save your money until you can afford what you need.
I hit 800yd targets every pull of the trigger with my SH4 (.308). But i cant read mirage and at 1000 yds you can hardly see misses in the dust plume. Its great to me because I dont know any better. On hotter days its a lot harder, its a washed out mess. I do want to upgrade to where mirage is my wind call though.....Where can I go? Tract Toric is what everyone says but on RUclips it doesnt look much better really.
In my own testing, cameras and eyes don't see the same things. The Tract Toric UHD has a vastly better image than the Arken. It's incomparable at its price. You'll see everything you need with the Toric.
Hey Kyle, there's a new optics company called Redline Optics. I'd love to see you fova review if you can get your grubby mittens on one (or two or all three) of their scopes.
@@holdleftedgeandsendit9351 Reminds me of the new South Korean Bushnell Elite 4-16x50 with only 50moa elevation travel for it's 30mm tube. I have their old discontinued Elite 4-16x50 Made in Japan with 1 inch tube with 50moa elevation travel.
It's like Diamonds. The clearer and less inclusions you gonna pay more. And the there is the diamond that looks like frozen spit. Although both are 1 karat the clearer one will always cost more. . But they make a Diamond for everyone.
@@jayjudd6518 lol I don't believe this generation would survive the old days of Xbox live or any unreal tournament chats.... 😂. It's all about the feel feels now
@@SocialRegressive lol right. Honestly I feel like I'm pretty tame anymore but no worries. It's not your fault. I just thought it was funny when I got the popup. Haha. It may not have even been on your channel
This is a great perspective to keep in mind. I’ve leaned toward great glass over features but that may not always be the best approach.
glass quality always takes priority.if you can't see it you can't hit it
Man, you just blew right past the point of this conversation. If you’re trying to learn and are struggling to afford gear, a scope with good turrets and an appropriate reticle is perfect for grasping the basics.
@TheDude1764 didn't blow right passed anything. everyone has a budget they have to stay in and I say buy the best glass you can in that budget.
@@holdleftedgeandsendit9351 Yes. But that’s not what your first comment implied. I agree with your reply: get the best glass you can afford, but get the right features for your application.
@TheDude1764 more features aren't always a good thing. there are some piles of junk out there loaded with features. arken for example they track well turrets are nice the reticles suck and the glass is meh but I could still hit steel with the one i had at 500 on a 22 lr because the scopes do track well. if one is going to go cheap go cheaper on the rifle and spend more on glass or buy one then save and buy the other one
Agree. Best qual glass is on best scopes and their reticals will usually be good enough. Cheers
Glass over features for me. I shoot big things relatively close. My most used scopes are a Leupold FX-3 6x42 with a #1 reticle, a Leupold VX-II 3-9x40 with a #1 reticle, an IOR 4x32 with a #1 reticle, and a S&B 6x42 with a #2 reticle. These work great for me, and you can't even buy things like this anymore. I'm glad I don't need more scopes.
Leupolds are hard to beat. Even their economy line of VX Freedom are nice even with their mushy turrets they track fine and are reliable.
Features depend on usage, glass quality lets you acquire and see the target.
My first scope and the only one I used until 3 years ago was a schmidt and bender 6x42 mildot I may have acquired from a military friend.
When I was teaching a friend to shoot this year I found a $200 feature rich scope 4-16x42 mildot, it’s what I knew and felt confident teaching with.
I’ve since used many scopes, leupold 6.5-20x42, a snb 3-12x50 AI, a few vortex and Athlon and sightron models.
People say buy once cry once and I get the sentiment if you know what you want a thing to do, but I would also say getting a cheap feature filled scope can benefit the learning curve so you know what to buy once. Also using good glass and poor glass let’s you appreciate the difference.
The $200 4-16x42 mildot was brilliant out to 300m and usable out to 500m.
Yes the leupold vx3 6.5-20x42 is amazing an cutting through the crap at 500m and is really easy to use when you have pre-ranged or use a range finder but guessing is still hard for may people. And then teaching wind calls from environmental factors is still very hard.
Did you acquire it from your milliradian friend?
Great video. I like your sensible, no hype, informative discussions. Thanks Kyle
Many thanks, datapro!
So glad you did this video as I felt like a follow-up was needed from the # 17. BTW, I still have that same Thrive scope on an older 12FV (stainless) chambered in .223 and actually like the retical as it's my preferred type of reticle. For this reason, I utilize a scope that's a little under the radar (Sightmark Latitude 6.25-25×56 SFP) F-Class with their F-Class reticle. I primarily shoot .22-250 and .243 and love dialing my shots so this works very well for me. Thanks again for so much good content.
Yup completely agree each gun and scope combination have a purpose. I do have 3 arkens and all the glass on them seems good. But honestly there just very bulky I got the Athlon helos on my 6.5 Grendel and love it.
I watched your series, it was very informative. I went with a Vortex Diamondback HD SFP 4x16x42. I notice any Vortex in your selection.
The old discontinued Philippine made Vortex can't be beat for their current clearance prices. They are far superior to the current Chinese made Vortex scopes.
Great informative video, filming and editing are outstanding!!!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I've been stumping for the Athlon BTR Gen2 2-12 for a few years now as possibly the best value-for-your-money generalist scope, but I was lucky to get an Ares ETR 3-18 last year for under $900 all in, and it sure is a big upgrade.
Now that dang siren call of beautiful glass has me looking hungrily at the upcoming March 1.5-15, but the price makes my heart ache. Really considering cost/benefit at that end of the scale.
Anyway, just found your channel recently and have been really enjoying learning, agreeing, and sometimes disagreeing (you need to get an EP scope from Arken before you write them off for good) with the points you bring up. Thanks for the great content!
From using a scope for my profession, quality glass generally comes with quality scope mechanics. If you shoot low light, quality glass is everything. It can be very expensive. Your average shooter and hunter can get by with a lower cost scope.
You raised a great point that I completely skipped in my notes. The real world is dark at least half the time.
Meopta Optika 5 and 6 are excellent low light scopes and are actually priced right. They are much better than anything compared you typical find that are made in China but the Meoptas are made in Europe/Czech republic.
Trying to balance glass quality and features and keep in budget ain't easy sometimes. Nikon used to do both in their buckmaster series and their mil-dot in that series was and still an excellent scope. It set the bar for a lot of makers to beat. Unfortunately they no longer produce scopes.
Unfortunately Nikon decided to screw over their customers and no longer honor their lifetime warranty.
@@commonsense5709 that I did not know. They originally said that they would. Sounds like a good class action lawsuits and possibly more. They could be breaking both federal and state laws depending on the state. The FTC might be even have something to say on it as Nikon is still a very active company. It's one thing if they went out of business, another just shutting down a line item.
Just finishing up a 350 legend. Will be a hog gun or deer at 100-200 yards. Field of view is important for when they scatter at first shot it needs to be able to acquire other targets and dispatch them as well ( hogs) . Also thinking maybe getting into thermal day/ night scope? Your thoughts.recommendations for optics.
Any thoughts on SWFA scopes? They bring another variable into play, at least on paper: weight, as in a 2.5-10x that weighs under 10 ounces.
Swfa would be heavy on the internal quality but low on features. Meaning they track extremely well, but don't have a bunch of modern wiz bang features.
I’m definitely a fan of my Bushnell AR and it works well for my intended uses on the setup it’s on. Good thinks to think about when building a solid setup. More often than not, people get a bullet launcher cause it looks cool or they’ve heard good things about that then the optic is an afterthought. If you think of the intended purpose and situations it will be used in going into it, one could save a lot of money in the long run.
I would really really like to see a review of a Element Helix from you.
The Element Helix (6-24x50) has an extremely poor eye box and glass is below average for it's price. It only has roughly 60moa of total elevation travel in a 30mm tube. If you buy it whenever they go on sale for $275 SFP or $325 FFP or from dealers who offer cheapest discount prices over the phone it might be worth it but not for regular price IMHO. You need to look through one yourself before making a decision to buy due to mediocre glass and very poor eye box. There are far better options from other brands out there in their price point. Same goes fir the Titan 5-25x56 if you buy in sale for $550 but not worth $799 no way IMHO.
Thanks for the video, but we are talking apples to oranges, we will all agree a $3K scope will be a beauty but is it affordable
to the average gun owner " nope ", and you would not put it on a $500 hunting rile either, but if you have deep pockets go for
it.
I would think glass quality would be the priority for whatever your intended purpose is for the scope, and with your purpose in
mind, what bells & whistles will you really need ?, my rule of thumb is, if, you have a $200 rile you buy a $200 scope, if you have
a $3,000 rifle you buy a $3,000 scope ..................... everyone sees everything differently when looking through a scope, so buy
what you can afford, and what your eyes tell you it's good !!
Always buy the absolute best in price class based on first hand long term users. Don't get ripped off buying inferior overpriced Chinese made scopes and only choose their best ones and only from certain brands.
Always glass quality. You can't hit what you can't see. I've peered through many scopes sighting in hunting rifles. I have to say the best glass I looked through was a simple fixed 4x Zeiss scope . Leupold 3x9 that I thought was good did not compare. That was back in 1984. Things have changed since then but will never forget that 4x Zeiss scope. My vision was 20/20 back then. Could see 25 Caliber bullet holes at 100 yards easy.
Not a fan of the "Off Brands" honestly. If you walk down a F-Class line you will see the the same optics on most of the rifles, all by the same major brands and costing around $3000. Generally a reason for that. I bought a Vortex Diamondback 25 zoom while back looking at the features at the price point but its sitting on top of the safe just like your Arken. The daytime image clarity is lacking and the dawn/dusk picture may be worse. Parallax looks right @75yard setting when you are really at 100, and it needs to stay at 75 yards for every range or it goes so blurry image is not even recognizable. Tried coyote hunting with it and between the sight box and poor image I had to pack it up almost 40 minutes before the legal hours were over for the day. Put a Nightforce NX8 4-32x on it and never looked back Buy once cry once I suppose.. beats kicking yourself for the wasted money paying for a cheap product that sits on top of your safe and never gets used.
Here's a tip for you. put that Arken on the next firearm you are selling and recover your hard earned cash, the online hype should help sell it faster for you!
I've seen quite a few of these Arkens on various content creators setups and it got me thinking as well.
If I had that many scopes on the table i would do a video comparison at -30 and see if any of the cheap ones track and adjust properly or zoom tighten up so much you need 50lbs of torque to move them! Had a terrible time with the cheapos in extreme conditions.
Thanks for the honest video.
I'd simply just as a rule of thumb avoid anything that says Made in China on it even if it's a US brand scope with just a few exceptions based on first hand side by side comparisons.
Interesting topic for the video. Choosing a scope is always a process of boiling down to bang for the buck. Of course, I know guys who's first and often only criteria is price. Glass quality is barely part of the conversation, it just has to be $250 or less, even though they could afford Nightforce.
Not a lot of distance judgment needed for 22-250 at 200. Exactly what I use (same retical but Bushnell 3-9) and I nail everthing out to 250. After a long spell I try targets but never seems to vary from original zero. Nice video. Cheers.
Thanks Kyle. Great insights.
I always watch. Most of the time it’s over my budget. I want to see Varmints at 100 yards and bullet holes on paper there also with small calibers 20 and 17 . Oh yes I wear glasses. 😊
Any thoughts on Sightron S-TAC?
Thank you 😊
I wish I’d never purchased an Arken. I bought it for my 6 ARC and now I’m stuck with it unfortunately. Hate the reticle.
When I bought my 6.5 Creedmoor, I was thinking about 'features' in a scope. The owner of the shop where I bought the rifle knows what I hunt, how and where. He refused to sell me a "Christmas tree" scope, would not allow me to buy anything except simple, duplex crosshairs. I chose glass quality over features. Never been sorry.
Need a rimfire target shooting scope 90% inside 100 yards.
There are some things in life you don't compromise on....
I think a rifle scope is one of those things!!
You should not have to choose between glass quality and whether it tracks correctly and returns to zero.
Save your money until you can afford what you need.
I hit 800yd targets every pull of the trigger with my SH4 (.308). But i cant read mirage and at 1000 yds you can hardly see misses in the dust plume. Its great to me because I dont know any better. On hotter days its a lot harder, its a washed out mess. I do want to upgrade to where mirage is my wind call though.....Where can I go? Tract Toric is what everyone says but on RUclips it doesnt look much better really.
In my own testing, cameras and eyes don't see the same things. The Tract Toric UHD has a vastly better image than the Arken. It's incomparable at its price. You'll see everything you need with the Toric.
@@SocialRegressive Im definitely doing something. I appreciate it. Great channel
I can forgive a little clarity for better tracking in my opinion.
Hey Kyle, there's a new optics company called Redline Optics. I'd love to see you fova review if you can get your grubby mittens on one (or two or all three) of their scopes.
just looking at specs on them they shot them selves in the foot with the 30mm tube and only 15 mils of elevation
@@holdleftedgeandsendit9351 Reminds me of the new South Korean Bushnell Elite 4-16x50 with only 50moa elevation travel for it's 30mm tube. I have their old discontinued Elite 4-16x50 Made in Japan with 1 inch tube with 50moa elevation travel.
The one feature you should never sacrifice if shooting long range is perfect tracking.
What rifle stock are you using with that rifle on the table?
This is my own design. I started with a 90% finished bench rest stock from Richards Microfit, and came up with this instead.
👍
It's like Diamonds. The clearer and less inclusions you gonna pay more. And the there is the diamond that looks like frozen spit. Although both are 1 karat the clearer one will always cost more. . But they make a Diamond for everyone.
Good glass> bells and whistles.
Wow just got comment removed because of harassment.... 😂 What has the internet become
It’s alway been that way-the American way.
It will be it’s down fall.
@@jayjudd6518 lol I don't believe this generation would survive the old days of Xbox live or any unreal tournament chats.... 😂. It's all about the feel feels now
I'll take a look in the "filtered" comments. It might be in there and I can resurrect it.
Can't find it. YT must have really hated it.
@@SocialRegressive lol right. Honestly I feel like I'm pretty tame anymore but no worries. It's not your fault. I just thought it was funny when I got the popup. Haha. It may not have even been on your channel