I’m a performance tuner plus I build my own performance based 6L 80s thanks to yalls videos a lot of help .I have hundreds of hours tuning this trans so your right on the offset it will basically lock up the converter faster which speeds up the process . Gain I’ve always raised if needed which would back pressure down from what I’ve seen raising the game, lowers the pressure .because with a large stall converter the converter can hang up and not want to unlock coming to a stop. Only way to really see if your changes help is turn off the adaptives, which, with big stall converter’s we sometimes have to leave the adaptives off. You can turn them on later to see if the TCM will like your new changes if not has to stay off . Those two tables and the slip tables are all that make any changes so far in my study’s thank you . God Bless . Oh and anytime you make a pressure change in your scanner -special with key on position not running you need to do I think it’s trans adapt reset / then push trans adapt preset or your changes will take a while to show . I’m still learning things about this trans almost on a daily basis. I don’t have 2 of the same tunes when it comes to this transmission. Sorry so long .
Most people want the DoD turned off. With that you need to turn slip off in the trans for the clutch in the converter to live. If you just zero out ALL tables the TEHCM will try to maintain zero slip. I drive at very steady speeds to and from work. I would actually watch the converter constantly go from no slip to a little slip and then back to no slip over and over again. It would on its own never just apply enough pressure to just hold. Constantly going from static to dynamic friction and back is hard on the clutch material. The apply pressure must be raised across the board to ensure no slip. I always turn off lock-up except for in 5th and 6th gears unless the vehicle is used for towing then I have it come on in 4th also. Apply ramp seems to help with how hard the clutch is applied. Around 50psi seems to hold well for steady state driving. I haven't looked at what occurs at WOT. Please keep the info coming. This is a great series. Again Thanks.....
Man, you need to make a video! I'm new to tuning. I just bought a HPTuner to disable DOD and eliminate E85 because the fuel ratio was constantly going out of whack. Truck runs perfect with out E85 but something just feels off with shifts. As if the pressure is really low. I don't know enough yet to fix the sponge like feel quite yet. My 6l80 has 145k on it so I don't want to make a mistake and grenade it. I'm sure it will need a rebuild someday, I just prefer it not be today!😂😂😂.
Love all of these videos SIU Automotive. Great work. Just a few corrections. 1: PCA Pressure is a channel that needs to be added to the scanner. It really is a very close trace of the TCC Desired Pressure with an offset. PCA Pressure is only available to be scanned on some T43 OS's. I've had to email and work with HPT to get this added in the first place for my trans OS. 2: For the TCC Desired Pressure table, you can change the column and axis tables into PSI if you right click on the axis and change its unit values. You must do this for each axis. 3: I haven't worked out what the Regulator Gain does. Some say its divided into the Regulator Offset pressure to get the initial apply pressure, but that math never works out. The Regulator Offset pressure seems to be the initial fill pressure that is used before it ramps up into the TCC Desired Pressure table. 4: The Apply Ramp table numbers are reversed. The higher the values, the slower the pressure increase is from the initial fill pressure to the Desired Pressure. This is why for lower Slip RPM Error values the numbers are lower, so it ramps up very quickly. 5: The Slip RPM Error is a channel that can be scanned in EFI Live and isn't available in HPT. From what I can see, the TECHEM is constantly looking at this Slip RPM Error even after the TCC is applied and, as soon as it detects Slip Error, it’ll then use the values in the Apply Ramp table to ramp up pressure to stop slippage. It’s like a closed loop system. 6: For some reason, HPT hasn’t been consistent with all of their OS mappings, so you’ll find that the Regulator Gain or Desired Pressure tables or Use Regulator Settings are missing between cars. The only way to get these features is to email HPT to add them in or, you can map them out yourself if you know the memory addresses in the raw .bin file. Cheers.
Thanks for the feedback! I tried your suggestion in #2 and it worked beautifully. I'm a little confused on your comment in #4. What do you mean the numbers are reversed. I would assume if the slip error is low (actual and desired are close to matching) that they wouldn't need much additional pressure to make them match, so therefore the values are lower. Am I looking at this wrong? I agree with your statement in #5. That's what I was trying to get across in the video. #6 might be a bit beyond me, although I'd be interested in how that all works. You must have a contact at HP that you work with. I've heard that there's not much support, but to be honest, I've never tried to get support on a technical level. Thanks again for the feedback. Once I'm done with this series, I plan to do a video with an overall summary with corrections and observations so please feel free to comment on any of these videos if you see anything else or if I missed something.
@@siuautomotive ok so with #4: The Apply Ramp table works the opposite of what you would normally think. I originally thought that higher values meant a quicker and faster apply of the TCC. It's not. Higher numbers in this table slows the apply rate down. This is why for 5, 10 or 20 Slip Error RPM, that the stock values are tiny numbers. Because there is little different between the Engine RPM and Transmission Input Shaft RPM, so they ramp the pressure / apply the pressure very quickly as you would hardly feel the difference. Remember, after the TCC is applied and engaged, and your driving down the freeway with 0 Slip Error RPM, if you go to accelerate and the TECHEM detects some Slip Error, you want that pressure to ramp up quickly to prevent premature wear of the TCC. Hence why we see the lower numbers for lower parts of the Slip RPM Error. I wonder if the ramp up rate is determined by the TCC Regulator Gain value... With 5#, you would just need to log a support ticket with HPT. I currently have 1-2 on the go with them and they do take their time but they usually do come to the party. the T43 is a 10+ year old controller, so not the highest priority on their list. Rest of the videos are amazing, you've done such a fantastic job. Well done.
I had slip while cruising in 6th, I zeroed out the slip tables but that didn’t fix it but what did was to add 2psi to the Apply Ramp table in the 5,10 and 20 columns only and like magic it was gone, I tried zeroing out the whole thing, halved the table, doubled the table which made it worse all it took was 2psi in the low numbers. So my thinking is because the factory had allowed slip in that 0-20 area of the table they had very low numbers there.
@@grahampease180 while that is one way to do it, I don’t think it’s the ideal way. Once the TCC is applied, you want to increase the TCC Desired Pressure table. This is the pressure that the trans targets after the TCC is applied and locked. Provided that you have zeroed all the slip tables and adapts, then this table will work. You’ll want more pressure to keep the TCC locked up firmly. Keeping in mind that the Apply table is only used during apply and if any slippage is detected during use. In EFI Live there is a pid you can log but it’s not in HPT. It’s called Slip RPM Error. This will show if the TCM is detecting slip.
Cool series, watched it so I could go put 6Ls in older cars. Probably won't do a lot of transmission tuning but better to know what's going on than not I recon.
It's almost like the TCC Desired Pressure is a shuttle acceleration map. It seems like it just controlled the allowed rate of pressure changes rather than changing the total commanded pressure, which makes sense because the total commanded pressure is going to be dictated by the commanded slip versus the actual slip. Almost like a look up table of expected pressures to command slip at 20rpm. When it jumped to that next value on the table it shot up the pressure and measured too little slip and dialed it back, then did it again a couple of times. I would guess the best way to tune that is to have as short an engagement with minimum ripple. I'm guessing the TCC Apply ramp is a maximum allowable deviation before the trans throws an error code. Even if the clutches are burned it will It will probably exceed those values in an attempt to match the slip measured to commanded. It could equally be maximum allowed deviations from set pressure but you're not going to see those until something changes, like wear or modifications.
I found this online. If your device functions in the usual "control sense", the Gain is similar to "leverage". The controller for your regulator device takes the difference between the controller's input signal (say that would be the actual fuel pressure discharged from the regulator) and the controller's set point (which would be the desired regulator discharge pressure). The controller determines relatively how far away the discharge pressure is from the set pressure and calculates a correcting signal (probably) based on the following formula, Output signal = Gain * ( E + Td + 1/Ti ∫ E(t)dt ) + Vs E = Error = Input Signal - Setpoint Ti = Reset Time Td = derivative Time Vs = Bias The controller then sends the new output signal to the regulator and the regulator moves to a corresponding position. The output signal strength is effectively the error signal multiplied by the gain setting, so in combination with the derivative and reset times, gain determines both how quickly and how "hard" the regulator responds to any differences between input signal and set point. So what I gather, Regulator Gain is how quickly the pressure ramps to to correct for the error.
That could be why I didn't really see much of a change except for maybe how quick the pressure ramped up in the very beginning. Thanks for researching this!
Great series you have really spent some hours on this. From what I have done with my tunes and others on RUclips TCC line pressure maxes out at 110psi for these transmission. Would have been interesting to see if you had zeroed out the slip tables and done a comparison like that. Thanks
Good idea, and I did think about that as well. I think that the results would still be the same since this system tries to maintain a certain slip. It would just add enough pressure to achieve 0 rpm of slip. I do plan on trying a few things now that I've done all these single mods. I'll definitely measure what zero slip speed does and report back. I think the TCC solenoid maxes out at 110, but with 110 of solenoid pressure, the actually apply pressure would likely be about 130 psi. Plus, as far as I know, it'll never get that high unless it cannot maintain desired slip speed. Thanks for the comment! I'll try to prove this stuff out on the next experiments.
@@siuautomotive the 110 is just what the internal pressure sensors are calibrated to. If you put real sensors in the circuits you can see what the actual clutch pressures are. The pressure switches are just a resistance based pressure pad, so they don't know any actual PSI. As for the TCC solenoid that's just based off the duty cycle the TCC solenoid is working at and what it thinks the line pressure is, together. As you know a lot of circuits in here are basically totally blind in terms of sensor pressure to make a closed loop response system. That's why GM moved away from these variable bleed solenoids, and went to variable force solenoids in the 8l and 10l. And that's why they got rid of so much clutch pack compliance. Less wave plates, no more compensator circuits. The best 6l80 firmware is the one in the late c6 corvettes (might only be 2013 but can't recall). They gutted out a ton of tables and things are a lot more efficient. The response is much quicker and altogether a major overhaul for the tcm. There's an article on it somewhere. My 2013 vette when everything was stock shifted the 6 speed like a beast.
Thanks! Very good video, Most people that come to me have the infamous GM transmission shudder, I can get all of it out with a tune, I tell them that this is a temporary fix, in regards to the regulator and offset gain tables, maybe the little bit of gain at first will help the converter live longer? Also I have noticed when I max out the Apply/release in 6th my tans temp goes up from 170ish to 210 deg. (this after I put the Transgo thermostat bypass in )
Thanks for the comment. When you say maxed out apply/release in 6th, do you mean you set it up where TCC doesn't ever engage? If so, I'd suspect that the trans will in fact overheat. Honestly, I think the converters would last forever if people turned off TCC in 1st through 3rd and changed slip speed to zero. It might no have the best drivability in 4,5,6th gears, but the converter would be happy.
Yes in apply/release, speed and full throttle pattern a ,b, hot, maxed out the tables 318 apply, 317mph release. this was the only way to keep it from "Shuddering". I never messed with slip speed but I will try that next, in the process of putting in a converter now. Thanks!@@siuautomotive
Has anybody figured out how to get the TCC to go to 0 slip with AC on? Mine will log 4.5 commanded slip with AC on no matter if I change AC slip to 0. T43 TCM. From what I understand of regulator and gain it is a division. Lower the gain to get a higher pressure to hold the TCC locked. Lower the apply ramp table numbers to make it lock faster.
I’m a performance tuner plus I build my own performance based 6L 80s thanks to yalls videos a lot of help .I have hundreds of hours tuning this trans so your right on the offset it will basically lock up the converter faster which speeds up the process . Gain I’ve always raised if needed which would back pressure down from what I’ve seen raising the game, lowers the pressure .because with a large stall converter the converter can hang up and not want to unlock coming to a stop. Only way to really see if your changes help is turn off the adaptives, which, with big stall converter’s we sometimes have to leave the adaptives off. You can turn them on later to see if the TCM will like your new changes if not has to stay off . Those two tables and the slip tables are all that make any changes so far in my study’s thank you . God Bless . Oh and anytime you make a pressure change in your scanner -special with key on position not running you need to do I think it’s trans adapt reset / then push trans adapt preset or your changes will take a while to show . I’m still learning things about this trans almost on a daily basis. I don’t have 2 of the same tunes when it comes to this transmission. Sorry so long .
I have a 2.8 Duramax diesel it smokes converters like cigarettes. Do you think 20% gain's on tcc and slip would do the trick?
Most people want the DoD turned off. With that you need to turn slip off in the trans for the clutch in the converter to live. If you just zero out ALL tables the TEHCM will try to maintain zero slip. I drive at very steady speeds to and from work. I would actually watch the converter constantly go from no slip to a little slip and then back to no slip over and over again. It would on its own never just apply enough pressure to just hold. Constantly going from static to dynamic friction and back is hard on the clutch material. The apply pressure must be raised across the board to ensure no slip. I always turn off lock-up except for in 5th and 6th gears unless the vehicle is used for towing then I have it come on in 4th also. Apply ramp seems to help with how hard the clutch is applied. Around 50psi seems to hold well for steady state driving. I haven't looked at what occurs at WOT. Please keep the info coming. This is a great series. Again Thanks.....
Man, you need to make a video! I'm new to tuning. I just bought a HPTuner to disable DOD and eliminate E85 because the fuel ratio was constantly going out of whack. Truck runs perfect with out E85 but something just feels off with shifts. As if the pressure is really low. I don't know enough yet to fix the sponge like feel quite yet. My 6l80 has 145k on it so I don't want to make a mistake and grenade it. I'm sure it will need a rebuild someday, I just prefer it not be today!😂😂😂.
Waiting patiently for #7. Sounds the most exciting
Can't wait for #7! I'd love to see you mod and expalin shift timing too. Thanks so much for the details and info.
Came back to check for new videos. I know life is busy, so I'll be patient.
Love all of these videos SIU Automotive. Great work.
Just a few corrections.
1: PCA Pressure is a channel that needs to be added to the scanner. It really is a very close trace of the TCC Desired Pressure with an offset. PCA Pressure is only available to be scanned on some T43 OS's. I've had to email and work with HPT to get this added in the first place for my trans OS.
2: For the TCC Desired Pressure table, you can change the column and axis tables into PSI if you right click on the axis and change its unit values. You must do this for each axis.
3: I haven't worked out what the Regulator Gain does. Some say its divided into the Regulator Offset pressure to get the initial apply pressure, but that math never works out. The Regulator Offset pressure seems to be the initial fill pressure that is used before it ramps up into the TCC Desired Pressure table.
4: The Apply Ramp table numbers are reversed. The higher the values, the slower the pressure increase is from the initial fill pressure to the Desired Pressure. This is why for lower Slip RPM Error values the numbers are lower, so it ramps up very quickly.
5: The Slip RPM Error is a channel that can be scanned in EFI Live and isn't available in HPT. From what I can see, the TECHEM is constantly looking at this Slip RPM Error even after the TCC is applied and, as soon as it detects Slip Error, it’ll then use the values in the Apply Ramp table to ramp up pressure to stop slippage. It’s like a closed loop system.
6: For some reason, HPT hasn’t been consistent with all of their OS mappings, so you’ll find that the Regulator Gain or Desired Pressure tables or Use Regulator Settings are missing between cars. The only way to get these features is to email HPT to add them in or, you can map them out yourself if you know the memory addresses in the raw .bin file.
Cheers.
Thanks for the feedback! I tried your suggestion in #2 and it worked beautifully.
I'm a little confused on your comment in #4. What do you mean the numbers are reversed. I would assume if the slip error is low (actual and desired are close to matching) that they wouldn't need much additional pressure to make them match, so therefore the values are lower. Am I looking at this wrong?
I agree with your statement in #5. That's what I was trying to get across in the video.
#6 might be a bit beyond me, although I'd be interested in how that all works. You must have a contact at HP that you work with. I've heard that there's not much support, but to be honest, I've never tried to get support on a technical level.
Thanks again for the feedback. Once I'm done with this series, I plan to do a video with an overall summary with corrections and observations so please feel free to comment on any of these videos if you see anything else or if I missed something.
@@siuautomotive ok so with #4: The Apply Ramp table works the opposite of what you would normally think. I originally thought that higher values meant a quicker and faster apply of the TCC. It's not. Higher numbers in this table slows the apply rate down. This is why for 5, 10 or 20 Slip Error RPM, that the stock values are tiny numbers. Because there is little different between the Engine RPM and Transmission Input Shaft RPM, so they ramp the pressure / apply the pressure very quickly as you would hardly feel the difference.
Remember, after the TCC is applied and engaged, and your driving down the freeway with 0 Slip Error RPM, if you go to accelerate and the TECHEM detects some Slip Error, you want that pressure to ramp up quickly to prevent premature wear of the TCC. Hence why we see the lower numbers for lower parts of the Slip RPM Error. I wonder if the ramp up rate is determined by the TCC Regulator Gain value...
With 5#, you would just need to log a support ticket with HPT. I currently have 1-2 on the go with them and they do take their time but they usually do come to the party. the T43 is a 10+ year old controller, so not the highest priority on their list.
Rest of the videos are amazing, you've done such a fantastic job. Well done.
I had slip while cruising in 6th, I zeroed out the slip tables but that didn’t fix it but what did was to add 2psi to the Apply Ramp table in the 5,10 and 20 columns only and like magic it was gone, I tried zeroing out the whole thing, halved the table, doubled the table which made it worse all it took was 2psi in the low numbers. So my thinking is because the factory had allowed slip in that 0-20 area of the table they had very low numbers there.
@@grahampease180 while that is one way to do it, I don’t think it’s the ideal way. Once the TCC is applied, you want to increase the TCC Desired Pressure table. This is the pressure that the trans targets after the TCC is applied and locked. Provided that you have zeroed all the slip tables and adapts, then this table will work. You’ll want more pressure to keep the TCC locked up firmly.
Keeping in mind that the Apply table is only used during apply and if any slippage is detected during use. In EFI Live there is a pid you can log but it’s not in HPT. It’s called Slip RPM Error. This will show if the TCM is detecting slip.
Cool series, watched it so I could go put 6Ls in older cars. Probably won't do a lot of transmission tuning but better to know what's going on than not I recon.
My 2.8 Duramax eats convertors I think factory they let it slip more to make it smoother. This video explains a ton.
It's almost like the TCC Desired Pressure is a shuttle acceleration map. It seems like it just controlled the allowed rate of pressure changes rather than changing the total commanded pressure, which makes sense because the total commanded pressure is going to be dictated by the commanded slip versus the actual slip. Almost like a look up table of expected pressures to command slip at 20rpm. When it jumped to that next value on the table it shot up the pressure and measured too little slip and dialed it back, then did it again a couple of times. I would guess the best way to tune that is to have as short an engagement with minimum ripple.
I'm guessing the TCC Apply ramp is a maximum allowable deviation before the trans throws an error code. Even if the clutches are burned it will It will probably exceed those values in an attempt to match the slip measured to commanded. It could equally be maximum allowed deviations from set pressure but you're not going to see those until something changes, like wear or modifications.
I found this online.
If your device functions in the usual "control sense", the Gain is similar to "leverage". The controller for your regulator device takes the difference between the controller's input signal (say that would be the actual fuel pressure discharged from the regulator) and the controller's set point (which would be the desired regulator discharge pressure). The controller determines relatively how far away the discharge pressure is from the set pressure and calculates a correcting signal (probably) based on the following formula,
Output signal = Gain * ( E + Td + 1/Ti ∫ E(t)dt ) + Vs
E = Error = Input Signal - Setpoint
Ti = Reset Time
Td = derivative Time
Vs = Bias
The controller then sends the new output signal to the regulator and the regulator moves to a corresponding position.
The output signal strength is effectively the error signal multiplied by the gain setting, so in combination with the derivative and reset times, gain determines both how quickly and how "hard" the regulator responds to any differences between input signal and set point.
So what I gather, Regulator Gain is how quickly the pressure ramps to to correct for the error.
That could be why I didn't really see much of a change except for maybe how quick the pressure ramped up in the very beginning. Thanks for researching this!
Great series you have really spent some hours on this.
From what I have done with my tunes and others on RUclips TCC line pressure maxes out at 110psi for these transmission.
Would have been interesting to see if you had zeroed out the slip tables and done a comparison like that.
Thanks
Good idea, and I did think about that as well. I think that the results would still be the same since this system tries to maintain a certain slip. It would just add enough pressure to achieve 0 rpm of slip. I do plan on trying a few things now that I've done all these single mods. I'll definitely measure what zero slip speed does and report back.
I think the TCC solenoid maxes out at 110, but with 110 of solenoid pressure, the actually apply pressure would likely be about 130 psi. Plus, as far as I know, it'll never get that high unless it cannot maintain desired slip speed.
Thanks for the comment! I'll try to prove this stuff out on the next experiments.
@@siuautomotive the 110 is just what the internal pressure sensors are calibrated to. If you put real sensors in the circuits you can see what the actual clutch pressures are. The pressure switches are just a resistance based pressure pad, so they don't know any actual PSI.
As for the TCC solenoid that's just based off the duty cycle the TCC solenoid is working at and what it thinks the line pressure is, together. As you know a lot of circuits in here are basically totally blind in terms of sensor pressure to make a closed loop response system. That's why GM moved away from these variable bleed solenoids, and went to variable force solenoids in the 8l and 10l. And that's why they got rid of so much clutch pack compliance. Less wave plates, no more compensator circuits.
The best 6l80 firmware is the one in the late c6 corvettes (might only be 2013 but can't recall). They gutted out a ton of tables and things are a lot more efficient. The response is much quicker and altogether a major overhaul for the tcm. There's an article on it somewhere. My 2013 vette when everything was stock shifted the 6 speed like a beast.
@@siuautomotive wonder if these pressures change with the trans go tow pro kit
What scares me is the long term effects of high tc clutch apply pressure on the engine's thrust bearing...
Great video! What if your OS doesnt have TCC Desired pressure table?
Thanks! Very good video, Most people that come to me have the infamous GM transmission shudder, I can get all of it out with a tune, I tell them that this is a temporary fix, in regards to the regulator and offset gain tables, maybe the little bit of gain at first will help the converter live longer? Also I have noticed when I max out the Apply/release in 6th my tans temp goes up from 170ish to 210 deg. (this after I put the Transgo thermostat bypass in )
Thanks for the comment. When you say maxed out apply/release in 6th, do you mean you set it up where TCC doesn't ever engage? If so, I'd suspect that the trans will in fact overheat. Honestly, I think the converters would last forever if people turned off TCC in 1st through 3rd and changed slip speed to zero. It might no have the best drivability in 4,5,6th gears, but the converter would be happy.
Yes in apply/release, speed and full throttle pattern a ,b, hot, maxed out the tables 318 apply, 317mph release. this was the only way to keep it from "Shuddering". I never messed with slip speed but I will try that next, in the process of putting in a converter now. Thanks!@@siuautomotive
Do you think number 7 is going to happen yet, or probably not?
Has anybody figured out how to get the TCC to go to 0 slip with AC on? Mine will log 4.5 commanded slip with AC on no matter if I change AC slip to 0. T43 TCM. From what I understand of regulator and gain it is a division. Lower the gain to get a higher pressure to hold the TCC locked. Lower the apply ramp table numbers to make it lock faster.
You have to completely alter the slip error table. The factory table doesn't apply pressure quick enough to hold zero slip.
First time I've ever been first! Lol.. So excited to watch this video!!!
Man, I have watched all six videos in this series and from what I have seen, nothing really makes any significant changes. Color me confused.
please release part 7 thanks
It clearly says tcc apply ramp rate...increasing is increasing the time...is it not?
SHOW.