The telekinetic powers used by the androids and machines are absolutely magic. They're using the same magic powers that people had in Nier, only this is after humans, and then androids, had time to actually sit down and figure out how magic worked scientifically, so their results are far more predictable and easy to manufacture.
I couldn't disagree more about 2B(E) and 9S not being fully sentient. This may be the sappy idealist in me, but I think the level of feeling 2B displayed toward 9S, especially at the end of her life, is something only a fully sentient being can display. Believe it or not, love is a fairly high order thing.
Actually, there's a point to be made that they don't get the chance to be sentient in any meaningful way, because they're regularly robbed of the chance of learning and growing from their experiences due to the cycle they live in. The end is their chance to become meaningfully sentient since they can now learn and grow and develop and change. This, on further reflection, feeds into how Nier Automata shows the dehumanization inflicted by cruel and violent systems on the people within them.
19:39 About A2 being a more developed AI. I think A2 is the opposite extreme, much more rigid and underdeveloped than either 9S or 2B. She's locked into a single-minded pursuit of vengeance. She's unable to learn from experience or adapt, all that matters is her rage and her desire to destroy everyone and everything that made her friends suffer and die. Until she "helps" 2B and is somewhat deflected from that path, along with Pod 042's influence.
16:45 I respectfully but quite strongly disagree with your perspective here. I think you are confusing the situational constraints that restricted these characters from developing in the manner you're suggesting with an inability to do so. It is made quite clear in the novellas that 9S is far more sophisticated and aware than he appears. They also clearly reveal the weight of 2E's cycle of executions and memory erasures of 9S is quite literally destroying her internally. Her detached, unfeeling persona is a defense mechanism that falls away the instant she sees 9S suffer or risk a loss of their mutual memories. 9S is far more aware of who 2B really is than you're led to believe in-game. He actually comments on more than one occasion in the novella how easy 2B is to read and how poor she is at hiding things from him. "He saw something behind those tightly shut lips. 2B was never very good at hiding things, after all." He also knows she is probably his assassin assigned to kill him for breaking into YoRHa secrets. 2B was as deeply bonded to 9S as could possibly be. She literally nearly destroyed her body from exhaustion in post-game lore just trying to find a way to revive 9S, shredding her hands into a bloody mess and finally collapsing from exhaustion. She says in her horrible cycle of executions because it is the only way she can stay close to 9S, not because she can't figure out how to adapt. Refer to the text on Cruel Blood Oath: "When I was close, I hurt him. Yet being distant hurt him more. I finally found my place in life. A place where I am as close as possible, yet eternally distant." She is so intent on defeating the machines and ending the war because she wants to end this cycle and be with 9S. This is why she's so relieved after she defeated Eve, she thought she could finally just be with 9S and wouldn't have to hurt him anymore. "It's finally over..." 9S is also a prisoner of circumstances, using denial so he can stay with the one he cares most about. From the text of Virtuous Contract: "How long can I continue to protect what I love amidst this endless war? How long, I wonder? How long can I continue to believe in a world laden with deceit and folly? How long, I wonder? How long can I lie to myself as I despair at the dark future of this world? How long, I wonder?" They had both developed sentience and human-like emotions, but their horrific circumstances were what constrained them. It wasn't that they were incapable of adapting. Circumstances were constraining them from escaping their doomed fate.
About the Forest King. I think you can find some information showing that the baby king used to be a big robot that inspired and gave meaning to the other robots in the forest and they made him their king for that. He died but they managed to sort of save him in that baby form. I might be remembering this a bit wrong though.
You're right. But the question remains why they put the king's memory into that "tiny child", as the others call it. It seems to be arbitrary. My best guess is that that step was just a further imitation of human behavior and traditions, particularly having children born as princes and princesses, who would later fill the shoes of their older family members as reigning monarchs.
Machines are trying to emulate past human cultures because they are unable to evolve. They are mimicking human behavior but are incapable of evolving as the title "Automata" implies.
16:45 I agree that characters like Pascal and 6O are portrayed as more recognizably human, but that doesn't mean 2B and 9S are deficient or less developed AI's. Pascal, etc., are there for contrast, so we question why 2B and 9S are different. And the game eventually tells us why. 9S gets killed and memory wiped over and over, so that's going to have an impact. 2B is living a lie, caught between divided loyalties, and forced to put on a mask (literally) and lie to the one person in the world she loves most. Any human would be traumatized by that and might act a bit robotic. But that trauma is undermined if you start the character from some point less than human. It's more of a tragedy if 2B and 9S fall from fully formed AI to something less by way of these traumas.
Inconsistencies with 2B's behavior is probably what got me so hooked from the beginning to the point that I completely put Nioh, Horizon, and Breath of the Wild on hold until I finished A through E, and even after that I started reading through novellas and outside materials. She just watched her entire team get vaporized right next to her in the opening minutes without flinching, yet after storming through the factory destroying everything in her path undeterred she instantly becomes panicked and nearly in tears while cradling an injured 9S in her arms, who she supposedly just met 20 minutes ago? It was immediately clear there was so much more going on with her that had not yet been revealed. I actually found the "hidden" narrative regarding the bond/ relationship between 2B and 9S and A2's background to be more of the true story of the game, the stories of the characters, whereas the more obvious sci-fi plot became more of the setting for the characters' plots. Almost everything from the main sci-fi mystery plot ends up being deceit and illusory, but the character's plot couldn't be more powerful, heartfelt, and impactful.
The logic virus has a side effect of making the android's eyes shine red. Very similar to the red eyes that the people who accepted the pact with the watchers had. And very similar to the red eyes of the Empire soldiers in Drakengard 1 when they were possessed, or Manah's eyes, for that matter. And let's not forget Emil's "LALALALALALA" from the secret boss fight (dunno if you got that one, Lorerunner, it requires a hefty amount of grinding). On that note, Eve has a Watchers tattoo on his chest when he gets his black armor. We don't really know if it is a direct connection to them, but it certainly is intentional. When it comes to project YoRHa, Yoko Taro is known for fleshing out parts of the story and the lore in out-of-game content. Here you go: ruclips.net/video/9-Xiv9bGcks/видео.html, transcript: theark.wiki/w/Project_YoRHa Yeah, it's literally shown that one of the "flower-named" androids (Zinnia) started project YoRHa.
Regarding the origin of project yorha - it is not fully known who started the whole project from scratch However there's a short storyline regarding a certain number 9 model that has repurposed the entire infrastructure of the project to perpetuate the lie about humanity It's a short story on The Ark wiki page named Project Yorha with 2 prototype androids and a character named Zinnia
Yoko Taro has talked about the buildings and such in Automata and basically yes they are maintained that way because the Androids don't know/can't comprehend what they are actually supposed to be like. They just maintain what's literally there. As for magic I think we only really see it in the Pod Program Attacks. When you do the big laser beam or shield with the Pod you can see little bits of the celestial alphabet that was in Nier 1 and the Drakengard games. Which basically confirms that they're just managed to fuse ancient magic with tech and the line between both is blurry at best during Automata. Even if that magic is small.
Thanatos388 the only issue I have with this is that Emil's attacks in his boss fight are specifically stated to be magical in nature, begging the question "Why are Emil's attacks considered magical and ours aren't?" I like to think that our Pod's magic-like attacks are exactly that; magic-like. I think they're simulated magic :)
14:14 "characters tend to define their reality very rigidly" vs. humans being adaptable. I think that's intentional for the sake of a narrative theme, to highlight with exaggeration how any form of single-mindedness, whether it's "defeat the enemy" or "glory to mankind" or "death to infidels", etc., leads to suffering. An in so doing, is a cautionary tale against single-mindedness in the human condition. Nowadays its pretty easy to find rigid realities and single-mindedness (flat earthers, climate change deniers, etc.) amongst us humans, so the point made by the game is very relevant. Not to mention that is connects directly to Nietzsche and his argument against external authority.
I liked your analysis of 9S a lot, the possible explanation of why he eventually snapped, with him not having fully matured (or not having had the opportunity to do so) and only approaching true consciousness as opposed to reaching it. We basically saw the Yorha equivalent of a bluescreen happening. I think the reason I love the game so much is because it's in some ways a philosophical playground. It presents many different issues and questions, arguably solves and answers some of them, and arguably doesn't. I think the narrative relies on the player and observer to complete itself, but it does so without feeling incomplete. Overall, I think the message is an incredibly beautiful one. It's about overcoming the hardships of life, accepting its imperfections and embracing the time you've been given. In a way it reminds me of something G'kar said: "But we can’t be free until we learn to laugh at ourselves. Once you look in the mirror and see just how foolish we can be, laughter is inevitable. And from laughter comes wisdom."
I like your description of this game as a philosophical playground. Lots of thought experiments and interactive dilemmas presented in this game in a way to get you coming to your own conclusions and get you thinking, instead of forcing answers on the player
I think i have an answer about who created project yorRHa, sadly there is none as to what or who created the logic virus still. The first question was answered in a live concert that had a reading segment in between songs revealing the origin of the number 2 and number 9 model, as well as the plan to make yoRHa think humanity is still alive. To cut it short the numbers here are personality prototypes, its not exactly clear if number 2 is a2s or 2bs prototype, what is clear though is number 9 is indeed 9s personality template. And the reading answered it by number 9 devising this plan "to create a god" to the yoRHa androids. Personally i really like how this makes the very beginning of automata even stronger in hindsight. The thought that 9s personality template literally became their god and is behind it all is very fitting and nicely closes it out, imo. If you want to hear this concert reading done by 2bs and 9s english VA helped by a few friends check out kyle mac carley's youtube channel, he did this for the fans and competently on his own on twitch and its now archived on his yt channel together with a play-through of both nier games as well.
the logic virus is the backdoor solution the red girls created to end YoRHa when things got too 'out of hand', and start the cycle over, to perpetuate the 'enemy' for the machines to 'destroy'. ALSO: its theorized that the logic virus-or even the red girls-are the evolution of the watchers.
The way machines do what they do to simulate humanization is because they got the"ability" to be self-aware, but how they do that if humans no longer exists? Well, there is the tale of beepee a character from Nier which is called "The Fire of Prometheus". in that tale, beepee was able to rise to the surface (as a volcano eruption like) and "educated" the machines to know about humans can be good and bad and neutral etc... but I don't really know how much they could learn it since the only one that had a contact with the humans(sorta) is beepee. But I too, believe that robots just like other novels can simulate humanization because of algorithm and stories blablabla just as the movie "I,Robot"(the Will Smith one)
Imagine my reaction after my second play through at (S' perspective, learning that humanity who were 'residing' on the moon were actually extinct! I've actually asked myself if the fight was even worth carrying on if the entire race of mankind was actually gone. If I was in that position, I would have stopped and learned to adapt in a new world; because I have no more motives or reasons to fight. Of all games, it was this one that played me like a fiddle, like 2B - I believed that she and YoRha were at war for mankind's survival from the Machines. Oh how wrong I was and the lie hit me very hard, the same way 9S felt. By then, i actually felt bad for killing Adam and Eve, along with some of the Machines. It kind of made me feel that I'm the bad guy and A2, a bit like 2B was stuck in the same lie as well; even though she defected YoRha.
As to the forest area: the king shared his parts with the other robots, he was dying and so they put his memories in a baby body. They did that because they didn't understand that he wouldn't grow up. So basically they were delusional and confused.
For project yorha I think it was revealed in a stage play made post-game, but it was originally a prototype model for 9s that started the project. Meaning 9s's programming is mostly what started the events of the game and the neverending cycle.
What are your thoughts on the theory that the machines are based upon the aliens encountering Emil? Their aesthetics are very similar, and the fact that one of the many clones of Emil popped out of a machine head speaks volumes.
the forest zone does have a story. The king originally decided to protect his "family" which included all of the machines under his command. He taught them concepts like loyalty and duty, eventually unintentionally turning his "subjects" into a kingdom. But eventually he broke down and the subjects put him in a baby body, assuming that the baby will grow into the next king, but they didn't realize that would never happen and ended up protecting the baby king for all this time. Ironically, the people who lived right next to them, Pascal's Village, could have assisted them in helping the baby grow as they do in their village, by swapping their cores into larger bodies as necessity demands. (I assume the big little sister and small big sister was a case of "ummm... we have a large biped body... is that ok?")
Dr. Zeno built the original 2b and 9s. 9s actually began yorha and the cycle in which 2b keeps killing him. It’s all been written and performed by the original voice actors. It’s on RUclips check the guy who voices 9s for the performance
This Rumination felt a lot less structured than most of your other Ruminations, which is hilarious in the context of the game and makes perfect sense, so I don't mean that as a negative! What I find equally hilarious is that I really wanted this Rumination to be longer just to hear you talk more about your thoughts of the game, but at the same time I don't have anything more to say about what you said. The game is unclear enough in many things that everyone can have their own interpretation of pretty much everything, so the best you can do is discuss your opinion on how things happened or how things are, which you did well.
I never really knew about Nier until I saw a video from a youtuber I like recommending it and saw it for a very reasonable price so i gave it a shot. I loved it. Then I discovered your channel and knew it was only a matter of time until you did a rumination I was not disappointed in the slightest. I am curious and if you haven't I would recommend seeing Emils questline til the end. Great music and many feels at the end of that one. Also try the DLC I won't spoil it but that's a real head**** right at the end LOL thank you Archengeia
I feel like at this point in the setting all the tech is running off magic, so any difference is kinda academic. Not all magic is tech, but most/all the tech is magic to some degree. The annoying thing about Yoko Taro is that he often writes/creates media that's important to his stories but never leaves Japan. I'm pretty sure he made a play and some short stories or something about Nier:A and that they goes into who made YorHa, stuff that happens after the end of the game, and a bit of elaboration on stuff from the past, but I don't actually know myself.
There are 2 stageplays one for the girls and the other for the boys, they are pretty meaningless to the story. The biggest parts of that are in the camp backup files you get to read as a2. The boys play is just to flesh out the world and make a connection between number 2 and 9 again, as well as explain why automata has only male android scanner models. The biggest addition to the game happened in a live concert for automata. And as @john gunn already said that one is available in english and even read out by the VAs of 2b and 9s in english. So this time it doesn't look like we are missing substantial content in the west.
The whole "maintaining the ruins" thing actually resonated pretty well with me, because I recently came back from a trip to Greece. That's EXACTLY what present day Greeks are doing to the ancient temples.
Hwantaw here. Been looking forward to this one. You've come up with some interesting theories about the setting I haven't heard elsewhere, particularly on the 'why' behind certain aesthetics. Always good to hear your perspective, thanks for another enjoyable and informative video!
Watched a video from some crazy guy named clemps that Taro-san wrote a short story explaining that a prototype of 9S lost it and made Yorha. Interesting that 2E had been killing the god who blessed them with the puzzle over and over again, but I like your pod theory better. Would be interesting if she had been working with one of those "gods" the entire time and not known it.
A little late to the party here, but I ddin't see anyone mention this. I remember that after the game came out, I'm pretty sure someone on the developement team said that not *all* of humanity was wiped out after the events of the original Nier. In places in the world where the Androids were more firmly in control, some gestalts would have been returned to their replicants (like in the Aerie). So I really like your idea about the pods. But I think it could have been that there was some human influence that could have started project Yorha before being fully wiped out by the Aliens. I thought that was part of why Emil split himself into copies. To try to protect the handful of people remaining. That could just be androids thought.
It wouldn't be hard to create a story with prehistory, history, and modernity all being connected. 2001 a Space Odyssey,boom, done. There can't be characters in common, unless they're thoroughly abnormal, but you can easily have objects and locations in common, not just themes.
Are you going to do Drakengard? I've been playing Nier Automata for the first time just this past week and I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the former game.
Good rumination. I can't disagree with you enough about 9S and 2B not having droid effect, but still a good rumination. Saying they aren't sentient would take pretty much all emotional investment in the story away, for me at least. I guess you'd have to really like them to consider them sentient in a story like this. Much like the Pods and the players (most of them). Other than that, all I want in the future for this series is for 9S and 2B to kill the Watchers (god) like 2B hinted at in the opening. If Caim and Nier somehow came back i'd pay big money to see them curb stomp every watcher into oblivion for the hell that they put all these characters through.. Especially Caim and Angelus.
GrimoireVoss I interpreted ending E as "killing the gods" aka all the people who made the game. Quite literally they are the gods of Nier's world! Not sure if that's the correct interpretation but it made sense to me so I'm sticking with it. Knowing Yoko Taro I doubt we'll see a direct sequel to Nier......I hope I'm wrong though.
I thought that the god 2B is refering to is the player himself since it's us who force her to go through everything all over again when we start a new game.
It's speculation. The 'its meta' argument when there are actual evil gods in the setting causing everything to happen doesn't make much sense to me. "Oh, it's the creators of the game haha". No thanks!
GrimoireVoss The literal is that 2B is ruminating on how a God could allow the cycles of war and suffering to keep happening if they could use their power to create paradise. But the meta reading that it also refers to eventually rebelling against the game makers to get a happy ending also seems to be clearly intentional. That's why the Pod repeats part of 2Bs opening line right afterwards. And in a way that still is an example of them killing the Gods in a way, or rather the YoRHa system that set them up to die.
You got a hell of a lot wrong on the beginning there. Try to look up kyle mac carley's youtube channel and search for the concert reading. This game has not any real connection to the watchers as far as we know yet.
I had stuff to say, but i keep going back and forth on it. Just finished the game last night. Great experience, but not easy to quantify, that's for sure.
Greetings sir, do you plan to do some review for both of the NieR games? Also, I wonder if you have ever played any of the Metal Gear Solid games? If you have i would love to hear you thought on them.
The connection is the flower that's the bad thing in the whole series and the secret boss fight in nier automata its finally used by the last human and his wish.
The telekinetic powers used by the androids and machines are absolutely magic. They're using the same magic powers that people had in Nier, only this is after humans, and then androids, had time to actually sit down and figure out how magic worked scientifically, so their results are far more predictable and easy to manufacture.
I couldn't disagree more about 2B(E) and 9S not being fully sentient. This may be the sappy idealist in me, but I think the level of feeling 2B displayed toward 9S, especially at the end of her life, is something only a fully sentient being can display. Believe it or not, love is a fairly high order thing.
Only observed in mammals and birds. Fairly late evolutionary development.
Actually, there's a point to be made that they don't get the chance to be sentient in any meaningful way, because they're regularly robbed of the chance of learning and growing from their experiences due to the cycle they live in. The end is their chance to become meaningfully sentient since they can now learn and grow and develop and change.
This, on further reflection, feeds into how Nier Automata shows the dehumanization inflicted by cruel and violent systems on the people within them.
19:39 About A2 being a more developed AI. I think A2 is the opposite extreme, much more rigid and underdeveloped than either 9S or 2B. She's locked into a single-minded pursuit of vengeance. She's unable to learn from experience or adapt, all that matters is her rage and her desire to destroy everyone and everything that made her friends suffer and die. Until she "helps" 2B and is somewhat deflected from that path, along with Pod 042's influence.
16:45 I respectfully but quite strongly disagree with your perspective here. I think you are confusing the situational constraints that restricted these characters from developing in the manner you're suggesting with an inability to do so. It is made quite clear in the novellas that 9S is far more sophisticated and aware than he appears. They also clearly reveal the weight of 2E's cycle of executions and memory erasures of 9S is quite literally destroying her internally. Her detached, unfeeling persona is a defense mechanism that falls away the instant she sees 9S suffer or risk a loss of their mutual memories. 9S is far more aware of who 2B really is than you're led to believe in-game. He actually comments on more than one occasion in the novella how easy 2B is to read and how poor she is at hiding things from him.
"He saw something behind those tightly shut lips. 2B was never very good at hiding things, after all."
He also knows she is probably his assassin assigned to kill him for breaking into YoRHa secrets.
2B was as deeply bonded to 9S as could possibly be. She literally nearly destroyed her body from exhaustion in post-game lore just trying to find a way to revive 9S, shredding her hands into a bloody mess and finally collapsing from exhaustion. She says in her horrible cycle of executions because it is the only way she can stay close to 9S, not because she can't figure out how to adapt. Refer to the text on Cruel Blood Oath:
"When I was close, I hurt him. Yet being distant hurt him more. I finally found my place in life. A place where I am as close as possible, yet eternally distant."
She is so intent on defeating the machines and ending the war because she wants to end this cycle and be with 9S. This is why she's so relieved after she defeated Eve, she thought she could finally just be with 9S and wouldn't have to hurt him anymore. "It's finally over..."
9S is also a prisoner of circumstances, using denial so he can stay with the one he cares most about.
From the text of Virtuous Contract:
"How long can I continue to protect what I love amidst this endless war? How long, I wonder? How long can I continue to believe in a world laden with deceit and folly? How long, I wonder? How long can I lie to myself as I despair at the dark future of this world? How long, I wonder?"
They had both developed sentience and human-like emotions, but their horrific circumstances were what constrained them. It wasn't that they were incapable of adapting. Circumstances were constraining them from escaping their doomed fate.
About the Forest King. I think you can find some information showing that the baby king used to be a big robot that inspired and gave meaning to the other robots in the forest and they made him their king for that. He died but they managed to sort of save him in that baby form. I might be remembering this a bit wrong though.
You're right. But the question remains why they put the king's memory into that "tiny child", as the others call it. It seems to be arbitrary. My best guess is that that step was just a further imitation of human behavior and traditions, particularly having children born as princes and princesses, who would later fill the shoes of their older family members as reigning monarchs.
Machines are trying to emulate past human cultures because they are unable to evolve. They are mimicking human behavior but are incapable of evolving as the title "Automata" implies.
@@PazuChill They have some small memory of the Lion King and thought they needed Simba?
16:45 I agree that characters like Pascal and 6O are portrayed as more recognizably human, but that doesn't mean 2B and 9S are deficient or less developed AI's. Pascal, etc., are there for contrast, so we question why 2B and 9S are different. And the game eventually tells us why. 9S gets killed and memory wiped over and over, so that's going to have an impact. 2B is living a lie, caught between divided loyalties, and forced to put on a mask (literally) and lie to the one person in the world she loves most. Any human would be traumatized by that and might act a bit robotic. But that trauma is undermined if you start the character from some point less than human. It's more of a tragedy if 2B and 9S fall from fully formed AI to something less by way of these traumas.
Inconsistencies with 2B's behavior is probably what got me so hooked from the beginning to the point that I completely put Nioh, Horizon, and Breath of the Wild on hold until I finished A through E, and even after that I started reading through novellas and outside materials. She just watched her entire team get vaporized right next to her in the opening minutes without flinching, yet after storming through the factory destroying everything in her path undeterred she instantly becomes panicked and nearly in tears while cradling an injured 9S in her arms, who she supposedly just met 20 minutes ago? It was immediately clear there was so much more going on with her that had not yet been revealed. I actually found the "hidden" narrative regarding the bond/ relationship between 2B and 9S and A2's background to be more of the true story of the game, the stories of the characters, whereas the more obvious sci-fi plot became more of the setting for the characters' plots. Almost everything from the main sci-fi mystery plot ends up being deceit and illusory, but the character's plot couldn't be more powerful, heartfelt, and impactful.
The logic virus has a side effect of making the android's eyes shine red. Very similar to the red eyes that the people who accepted the pact with the watchers had. And very similar to the red eyes of the Empire soldiers in Drakengard 1 when they were possessed, or Manah's eyes, for that matter. And let's not forget Emil's "LALALALALALA" from the secret boss fight (dunno if you got that one, Lorerunner, it requires a hefty amount of grinding).
On that note, Eve has a Watchers tattoo on his chest when he gets his black armor. We don't really know if it is a direct connection to them, but it certainly is intentional.
When it comes to project YoRHa, Yoko Taro is known for fleshing out parts of the story and the lore in out-of-game content. Here you go: ruclips.net/video/9-Xiv9bGcks/видео.html, transcript: theark.wiki/w/Project_YoRHa
Yeah, it's literally shown that one of the "flower-named" androids (Zinnia) started project YoRHa.
Regarding the origin of project yorha - it is not fully known who started the whole project from scratch
However there's a short storyline regarding a certain number 9 model that has repurposed the entire infrastructure of the project to perpetuate the lie about humanity
It's a short story on The Ark wiki page named Project Yorha with 2 prototype androids and a character named Zinnia
Yoko Taro has talked about the buildings and such in Automata and basically yes they are maintained that way because the Androids don't know/can't comprehend what they are actually supposed to be like. They just maintain what's literally there.
As for magic I think we only really see it in the Pod Program Attacks. When you do the big laser beam or shield with the Pod you can see little bits of the celestial alphabet that was in Nier 1 and the Drakengard games. Which basically confirms that they're just managed to fuse ancient magic with tech and the line between both is blurry at best during Automata. Even if that magic is small.
Thanatos388 the only issue I have with this is that Emil's attacks in his boss fight are specifically stated to be magical in nature, begging the question "Why are Emil's attacks considered magical and ours aren't?" I like to think that our Pod's magic-like attacks are exactly that; magic-like. I think they're simulated magic :)
He is the only last remaining human? This would be an explaination as to why shades could use it and he can as well.
14:14 "characters tend to define their reality very rigidly" vs. humans being adaptable. I think that's intentional for the sake of a narrative theme, to highlight with exaggeration how any form of single-mindedness, whether it's "defeat the enemy" or "glory to mankind" or "death to infidels", etc., leads to suffering. An in so doing, is a cautionary tale against single-mindedness in the human condition. Nowadays its pretty easy to find rigid realities and single-mindedness (flat earthers, climate change deniers, etc.) amongst us humans, so the point made by the game is very relevant. Not to mention that is connects directly to Nietzsche and his argument against external authority.
Best. Opening. Ever.
I liked your analysis of 9S a lot, the possible explanation of why he eventually snapped, with him not having fully matured (or not having had the opportunity to do so) and only approaching true consciousness as opposed to reaching it. We basically saw the Yorha equivalent of a bluescreen happening. I think the reason I love the game so much is because it's in some ways a philosophical playground. It presents many different issues and questions, arguably solves and answers some of them, and arguably doesn't. I think the narrative relies on the player and observer to complete itself, but it does so without feeling incomplete. Overall, I think the message is an incredibly beautiful one. It's about overcoming the hardships of life, accepting its imperfections and embracing the time you've been given. In a way it reminds me of something G'kar said: "But we can’t be free until we learn to laugh at ourselves. Once you look in the mirror and see just how foolish we can be, laughter is inevitable. And from laughter comes wisdom."
I like your description of this game as a philosophical playground. Lots of thought experiments and interactive dilemmas presented in this game in a way to get you coming to your own conclusions and get you thinking, instead of forcing answers on the player
I think i have an answer about who created project yorRHa, sadly there is none as to what or who created the logic virus still.
The first question was answered in a live concert that had a reading segment in between songs revealing the origin of the number 2 and number 9 model, as well as the plan to make yoRHa think humanity is still alive. To cut it short the numbers here are personality prototypes, its not exactly clear if number 2 is a2s or 2bs prototype, what is clear though is number 9 is indeed 9s personality template. And the reading answered it by number 9 devising this plan "to create a god" to the yoRHa androids.
Personally i really like how this makes the very beginning of automata even stronger in hindsight. The thought that 9s personality template literally became their god and is behind it all is very fitting and nicely closes it out, imo.
If you want to hear this concert reading done by 2bs and 9s english VA helped by a few friends check out kyle mac carley's youtube channel, he did this for the fans and competently on his own on twitch and its now archived on his yt channel together with a play-through of both nier games as well.
the logic virus is the backdoor solution the red girls created to end YoRHa when things got too 'out of hand', and start the cycle over, to perpetuate the 'enemy' for the machines to 'destroy'. ALSO: its theorized that the logic virus-or even the red girls-are the evolution of the watchers.
The way machines do what they do to simulate humanization is because they got the"ability" to be self-aware, but how they do that if humans no longer exists? Well, there is the tale of beepee a character from Nier which is called "The Fire of Prometheus". in that tale, beepee was able to rise to the surface (as a volcano eruption like) and "educated" the machines to know about humans can be good and bad and neutral etc... but I don't really know how much they could learn it since the only one that had a contact with the humans(sorta) is beepee. But I too, believe that robots just like other novels can simulate humanization because of algorithm and stories blablabla just as the movie "I,Robot"(the Will Smith one)
Imagine my reaction after my second play through at (S' perspective, learning that humanity who were 'residing' on the moon were actually extinct! I've actually asked myself if the fight was even worth carrying on if the entire race of mankind was actually gone. If I was in that position, I would have stopped and learned to adapt in a new world; because I have no more motives or reasons to fight. Of all games, it was this one that played me like a fiddle, like 2B - I believed that she and YoRha were at war for mankind's survival from the Machines. Oh how wrong I was and the lie hit me very hard, the same way 9S felt. By then, i actually felt bad for killing Adam and Eve, along with some of the Machines. It kind of made me feel that I'm the bad guy and A2, a bit like 2B was stuck in the same lie as well; even though she defected YoRha.
As to the forest area: the king shared his parts with the other robots, he was dying and so they put his memories in a baby body. They did that because they didn't understand that he wouldn't grow up. So basically they were delusional and confused.
For project yorha I think it was revealed in a stage play made post-game, but it was originally a prototype model for 9s that started the project. Meaning 9s's programming is mostly what started the events of the game and the neverending cycle.
What are your thoughts on the theory that the machines are based upon the aliens encountering Emil? Their aesthetics are very similar, and the fact that one of the many clones of Emil popped out of a machine head speaks volumes.
the forest zone does have a story. The king originally decided to protect his "family" which included all of the machines under his command. He taught them concepts like loyalty and duty, eventually unintentionally turning his "subjects" into a kingdom. But eventually he broke down and the subjects put him in a baby body, assuming that the baby will grow into the next king, but they didn't realize that would never happen and ended up protecting the baby king for all this time.
Ironically, the people who lived right next to them, Pascal's Village, could have assisted them in helping the baby grow as they do in their village, by swapping their cores into larger bodies as necessity demands. (I assume the big little sister and small big sister was a case of "ummm... we have a large biped body... is that ok?")
Dr. Zeno built the original 2b and 9s. 9s actually began yorha and the cycle in which 2b keeps killing him. It’s all been written and performed by the original voice actors. It’s on RUclips check the guy who voices 9s for the performance
This Rumination felt a lot less structured than most of your other Ruminations, which is hilarious in the context of the game and makes perfect sense, so I don't mean that as a negative!
What I find equally hilarious is that I really wanted this Rumination to be longer just to hear you talk more about your thoughts of the game, but at the same time I don't have anything more to say about what you said. The game is unclear enough in many things that everyone can have their own interpretation of pretty much everything, so the best you can do is discuss your opinion on how things happened or how things are, which you did well.
I never really knew about Nier until I saw a video from a youtuber I like recommending it and saw it for a very reasonable price so i gave it a shot. I loved it. Then I discovered your channel and knew it was only a matter of time until you did a rumination I was not disappointed in the slightest. I am curious and if you haven't I would recommend seeing Emils questline til the end. Great music and many feels at the end of that one. Also try the DLC I won't spoil it but that's a real head**** right at the end LOL thank you Archengeia
Love your content bruv! Keep it coming my guy.
I feel like at this point in the setting all the tech is running off magic, so any difference is kinda academic. Not all magic is tech, but most/all the tech is magic to some degree.
The annoying thing about Yoko Taro is that he often writes/creates media that's important to his stories but never leaves Japan. I'm pretty sure he made a play and some short stories or something about Nier:A and that they goes into who made YorHa, stuff that happens after the end of the game, and a bit of elaboration on stuff from the past, but I don't actually know myself.
Graysett the English voice actors do a reading of the play. It's on RUclips too if you're interested.
Those are being localized by Viz right now.
There are 2 stageplays one for the girls and the other for the boys, they are pretty meaningless to the story. The biggest parts of that are in the camp backup files you get to read as a2. The boys play is just to flesh out the world and make a connection between number 2 and 9 again, as well as explain why automata has only male android scanner models.
The biggest addition to the game happened in a live concert for automata. And as @john gunn already said that one is available in english and even read out by the VAs of 2b and 9s in english. So this time it doesn't look like we are missing substantial content in the west.
What a fucking opening lore, your good.
The whole "maintaining the ruins" thing actually resonated pretty well with me, because I recently came back from a trip to Greece. That's EXACTLY what present day Greeks are doing to the ancient temples.
Hwantaw here.
Been looking forward to this one. You've come up with some interesting theories about the setting I haven't heard elsewhere, particularly on the 'why' behind certain aesthetics. Always good to hear your perspective, thanks for another enjoyable and informative video!
Watched a video from some crazy guy named clemps that Taro-san wrote a short story explaining that a prototype of 9S lost it and made Yorha. Interesting that 2E had been killing the god who blessed them with the puzzle over and over again, but I like your pod theory better. Would be interesting if she had been working with one of those "gods" the entire time and not known it.
A little late to the party here, but I ddin't see anyone mention this. I remember that after the game came out, I'm pretty sure someone on the developement team said that not *all* of humanity was wiped out after the events of the original Nier. In places in the world where the Androids were more firmly in control, some gestalts would have been returned to their replicants (like in the Aerie).
So I really like your idea about the pods. But I think it could have been that there was some human influence that could have started project Yorha before being fully wiped out by the Aliens. I thought that was part of why Emil split himself into copies. To try to protect the handful of people remaining. That could just be androids thought.
It wouldn't be hard to create a story with prehistory, history, and modernity all being connected. 2001 a Space Odyssey,boom, done. There can't be characters in common, unless they're thoroughly abnormal, but you can easily have objects and locations in common, not just themes.
why am i listening to this? haven't played it yet lol! but now i'm hyped and it's on you Lore! :)
Are you going to do Drakengard? I've been playing Nier Automata for the first time just this past week and I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the former game.
He just did Drakengard a few days ago! And there's a stream highlight reel for it too, as well as this game.
U should check out Clemps videos on Nier and automata their very informative and really dive into the lore
Good rumination. I can't disagree with you enough about 9S and 2B not having droid effect, but still a good rumination. Saying they aren't sentient would take pretty much all emotional investment in the story away, for me at least. I guess you'd have to really like them to consider them sentient in a story like this. Much like the Pods and the players (most of them).
Other than that, all I want in the future for this series is for 9S and 2B to kill the Watchers (god) like 2B hinted at in the opening. If Caim and Nier somehow came back i'd pay big money to see them curb stomp every watcher into oblivion for the hell that they put all these characters through.. Especially Caim and Angelus.
GrimoireVoss I interpreted ending E as "killing the gods" aka all the people who made the game. Quite literally they are the gods of Nier's world! Not sure if that's the correct interpretation but it made sense to me so I'm sticking with it. Knowing Yoko Taro I doubt we'll see a direct sequel to Nier......I hope I'm wrong though.
I thought that the god 2B is refering to is the player himself since it's us who force her to go through everything all over again when we start a new game.
It's speculation. The 'its meta' argument when there are actual evil gods in the setting causing everything to happen doesn't make much sense to me. "Oh, it's the creators of the game haha". No thanks!
GrimoireVoss The literal is that 2B is ruminating on how a God could allow the cycles of war and suffering to keep happening if they could use their power to create paradise.
But the meta reading that it also refers to eventually rebelling against the game makers to get a happy ending also seems to be clearly intentional. That's why the Pod repeats part of 2Bs opening line right afterwards. And in a way that still is an example of them killing the Gods in a way, or rather the YoRHa system that set them up to die.
You got a hell of a lot wrong on the beginning there. Try to look up kyle mac carley's youtube channel and search for the concert reading. This game has not any real connection to the watchers as far as we know yet.
I had stuff to say, but i keep going back and forth on it. Just finished the game last night. Great experience, but not easy to quantify, that's for sure.
You're the man.
Really enjoyed this one
Greetings sir, do you plan to do some review for both of the NieR games?
Also, I wonder if you have ever played any of the Metal Gear Solid games? If you have i would love to hear you thought on them.
ruclips.net/video/9I8HOzJpHeU/видео.html
Lorerunner Haha🤣 Thank you so much. And I guess that's all you gonna do with the NieR series?
At the moment yes. My Patrons actually choose what I Ruminate on, not me, so for the moment we're done with the series.
The connection is the flower that's the bad thing in the whole series and the secret boss fight in nier automata its finally used by the last human and his wish.
Nice Intro lore, very funny!
Excellent Joke Arche! Wonderful rumination as well
Yo can we get a rumination on pillars 2?
nice job
one way to explain automata is yoko taro .... cause his games are weird dark and deep
Less than a minute in with the joke ending. Oh you troll ;)
Who started YorHa? Here you go: mintychu.dreamwidth.org/1371.html
Ahh more excellent content
ok you lost me...
you just didnt got it
Your commentary should be nearly automatic, ya tomato.
😁lol
Alright Mr LoreRunner/Hitchiker, I'll admit it.
You made me literally laugh out loud too with that intro! (bravo)