"Everyone at the table agreed" Imagine having someone at your table having to re-roll their character to make you not feel useless, and then shitting on that new character for being useless
Yeah this part definitely frustrated me. It's like, someone shows up and utterly outclasses the other person playing a similar party role, I would ALWAYS expect that this player knows how to make a character.
@@beckerscantbechoosers6768 to be fair though, typically people understand optimizing other classes or roles, but can't do it very well. I mean, I love my damage Wizards, but I love support Wizards even more. Combine that with a decent damage output for a Cleric who is good with healing, buffs, and debuffs and you have an awesome duo.
@@TreantmonksTemple never sat down and compared notes with ”Dean” to get his character above a 10 damage output? I think I can do more than that with a commoner, with a club, and no optimization.
@@AnnoyingNewslettersPage6 This is a situation where I would struggle. The goal would be for: A) 'Dean' to have more, or at least the same, amount of fun; B) The party to have more, or at least the same, amount of fun; C) Not to come off as a d. Trying to get all of those right is a minefield. 'Dean' may enjoy having more impact, but may hate putting in effort more. The party may have more fun if Dean's character was more effective, but may not want to acknowledge that. Saying absolutely anything about either of these will likely not win you any friends, even if 100% true. You need a real life charisma of 20 to pull it off. Usually best to just wait for 'Dean' to ask you. Or hope they take it upon themselves to find out what might be some of the more effective options, like watching youtube vids.
"What I find myself constantly explaining is that “being a god” doesn’t mean godlike power. I chose the name based on Greek Myths, where a god would get some hapless mortal to do their dirty work, merely interfering by magic to ensure that the hero always had the advantage. This is what a god wizard is, a wizard who lets the rest of the party have the glory, but subtly ensures through Battlefield Control, Buffing and Debuffing that the party always achieves victory." ~Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e
Wiz: Without me, you'd have been dead years ago. Party: Wait, who are you? DM: She's been sitting at the table for 3 years? Wiz James? Her Character was self-effacing, people, not her!
I picked up God Wizardry with an Illusion Wizard in 5e when I finally shrugged off the Forever DM chains. I dont think I managed to do it right, however, because I wound up, in order, having my character killed by the DM's 20th level Shadow Sorcerer/Demigod Self Insert for irritating another player, being banned from playing wizards in the future, and eventually leaving that friend group entirely. Without sarcasm it was the best thing that's happened to me in years.
@@m.k.685 I know this is an old comment, but short answer: yes, but you won't be dominating like before. Long answer: all casters got nerfed, while all martials got buffed, leading to better overall balance between classes. Martials are still typically kings of damage, but they tend to get some support and control tools to make them more versatile. Some martials such as PF2e's investigator and alchemist can lean very heavily into support, and rogues can get a lot of control abilities as they move into tier 3. For casters, a lot of powerful spells either got nerfed (such as enlarge no longer providing a bonus to hit), or they moved up into a higher slot (such as fly being 4th level). Walls and terrain manipulation are still just as powerful as ever, though. Spells that require a save have been buffed overall - instead of successful saves always completely negating the effect, there are often four degrees of failure: critical success (beating DC by 10+), success, failure, and critical failure (failing DC by 10+). Critical successes completely negate the spell, and failure effects are not as severe, but successes will still negatively effect the creature enough to feel like you didn't waste a slot, and critical failures will often completely disable a creature for an entire fight. Save or die spells, however, were nerfed into the ground, as they have a trait that gives them reduced effects on creatures that are higher level than 2x the spell level. Overall, you're no longer the (secret) star of the show, but you're still a vital part of the group that shouldn't be underestimated just because of low damage output.
Interesting how our collective knowledge of RPG tactics evolves. If you bring a good "controller" character into an RPG party today, I'm pretty sure your party would know what you're doing and appreciate it. It's why 5e Bards are so highly regarded despite their poor offensive ability. I'm impressed you figured this out for yourself almost 20 years ago.
It's less that he figured out that it would be the most powerful so much as he just didn't want to make anyone feel bad but knew he had to be useful too.
It is more known today because he literally wrote the book on how to do this and then it became a thing. I know that is kindof what you were saying but I felt it needed to be stated like this.
@@rogerwilco2 it's not even that they need to understand math particularly well. they just need to be willing to take a second to *do* the math fight 2 enemies at the same time? take 2 hits, knock 1 enemy down, take 1 hit, knock the 2nd enemy down. 3 hits total. fight 2 enemies 1 at a time? take 1 hit, knock 1 enemy down, take 1 hit, knock 2nd enemy down. 2 hits total and battlefield control only gets that much better as the number of enemies increases.
I got a similar reaction when I introduced my sorcerer (based on your Shadow Sorc). "You don't have quickened spell? Or careful spell? You don't even have Fireball?Well alright..." A few twinned Hastes on the Rogue and Paladin later, I think they got the point!
Having started to play a Divine Soul recently (who, admittedly, have incredibly good bonus actions anyway) - without relying on any sorcerer guides - I was very surprised why so many people love Quicken Spell and don't just spam Twinned Spell. The stuff that I was able to pull with just 1st level spells was truely filthy, twinning Guiding Bolts and Healing Words left and right. I can't wait to twin Haste or Polymorph for obvious reasons. Going for the "patented" quickened Fireball into Firebolt seems downright lame by comparison !
I am amazed by your ability to take this as something positive. I would have a hard time to not be... angered? offended? triggered? by their callous ignorance.
My goal was to be optimized without overshadowing anyone. I can't imagine any way I could have surpassed the goal more. Also, we all became friends through the campaign, so it was meant and taken with that underlying friendship.
I would have kept "overshadowing" the other warrior... Coddling children (no offense to your group) isn't going to make them get better at the game. Same with people not understanding how cc works and affects the battlefield... You are a more patient man than myself. Also on a side note, I have played in many campaigns where some players shine more and do "badass" stuff more frequently and I've never seen anyone get butthurt they are getting "overshadowed". It's a group effort. I am happy when I see my teammate lay the smack down on something as are my other teammates when I or anyone else does the same thing. We cheer them on in their glorious conquests instead of getting jealous because they are better than us at the game... Maybe the other fighter could have asked you for tips instead of whatever he wound up doing...
@@obeygiant8409 While I think it was amazingly stupid of them not to notice the correlation between TM rolling his godly wizard and the battles becoming "easy," at the end of the day, people play D&D to have fun. If you were a tournament level Super Smash Brothers player, would you ruthlessly crush your mates when they played with you and not let them take a single stock? I hope not. XD
@@obeygiant8409 that would require thinking, which the group (by not realising WHY it got easier) showed is unable to do. Missing the impact of such spells in 1 fight? Sure! In 2 fights? Possible. In 3 fights? If you really didnt pay any attention during that AND previous fights, maybe. Not understanding in the 4th consecutive fight, that suchs spells are making it easier for you? You are beyond saving, please charge headfirst into the enemy murderball to take away their turn, letting the others do actually useful stuff.
I think the story of Chris's fighter is why so many people resent optimizers as "munchkins" and "min-maxers." I once had a similar experience where I made an optimized "glass" cannon that overshadowed the party fighter and only had one less AC. That fighter's player was a lot happier once the DM started dropping magic items that only his character could use and made our power levels more in-line with each other.
@@naddarr1 I think they were actually at level 3 or 4 since "Dean" only made one attack and Chris says he could attack twice "because I have Lion totem barbarian," ie, not because he was level five and everyone could do it. So 10 damage at level 4 might not be setting the world on fire, but it's perfectly reasonable. Heck, it's average damage with a greataxe at that point. I honestly can't think of a build in fifth edition that can put up 60 dpr at that level (which is probably a good thing), which is why it would have upset the other players.
@@mikehalloran93 D&D 3.5 also had the choice between being able to move more than 5 feet and getting all of your "iterative" attacks from having a high enough BAB (AKA full attacking). Lion Totem Barbarian got around that by gaining the Pounce ability, which let them get off their full number of attacks, but only when charging. So even that was less mobile than 5e combatants. To get what 5e does with being able to move before, during, between, and after making all of your attacks, you'd have to invest 3 feats to be able to grab Spring Attack.
A Goliath in 3.5 gets a +4 to Strength at character creation, and they can wield weapons one size category larger without penalty. If he's wielding a one handed weapon and a shield, he wouldn't be able to get the 1 1/2 Strength bonus to damage, just the Strength bonus. But even then, wielding a one handed simple or martial weapon, let's say Warhammer, which is 1d8 for medium creature sized, and 2d6 for a large version... Even assuming a starting roll of 15 assigned to Strength, plus 4 from its racial bonus, gives us a Strength 19, which is a +4 bonus... We're looking at 2d6+4 damage for just walking up to an opponent and whacking them. Average damage for 2d6 is 7 (craps) +4 gives us 11. So, *shrugs* the math checks out for a less than average Goliath, one that might have been exiled for being the runt of the litter. 😕 That's before we get into the character being a fighter, and at first level having that bonus fighter feat. So even if he didn't take weapon focus and/or power attack...idk. Again, this is just speculation based on just an incomplete level 1 Goliath Fighter.
I play in an online game as a God Wizard and the GM thinks hes pretty overpowered even though he hasn't done more than a few points of cantrip damage the entire campaign. But one day she realized she was having an impossible time killing a character she felt needed to die and she had to ask me to not cast my spells and let him die. That put me in a really weird spot. I think perceptions might be changing and some people realize how rough it can be to beat the god party. And people don't understand why it's good. We had a psionist join and she wanted to look at my spell list to copy some spells and she was like WTF is this spell list. The only thing she could think to take was fireball even though I hadn't found it useful enough to cast in the entire campaign.
I think the core of the "God Wizard" is simply playing a long game (opposed to short game). The short game looks at what I can do right now. The long game looks at what is the best move, regardless of ego and individual effort. He's perfectly willing to take the back row, in an effort to push the group forward overall.
This story reminded me of the one thing that people often forget, "DND is full of salty morons with exceptionally fragile egos and think wizards are all about chucking fireballs" You really are a kind player, I would have made the wizard retire half way, played a couple of sessions with a evoker fireball chucking wizard, make a few of them die and bring back the GOD wizard...
Would really love to see a 5e build of this. Wizard is by far my favorite class because of its versatility and this idea plays into that perfectly. Thanks for sharing this!
@@TreantmonksTemple Actually your Auger build is my Favorite of the God Wizard builds for sure. Yes you added some damage in there but its just amazing stuff in there for "Portent" to work with.
After I read your guide it put me in a mindset of "damage is for martials, the rest is for casters." And I'm still in that mindset in a lot of ways - at least insofar as sustained, targeted damage is concerned. Whenever I made a full caster I had to challenge myself with the question: "why am I not making this a god-style caster?" (I have a god-style bard in one campaign. I bring a god-style wizard into various one-shots.) After you started your more diverse builds here I started diversifying my thought pattern. My god-style wizard did prepare fireball once, and was disappointed with it because of course she was - we were fighting one big boss. And after that I sort of left blasts off to the side, maybe preparing Magic Missile but mostly content to plink away with cantrips once my big spell was on the field. But now I've started up an Evoker blaster to try and challenge my thinking of "oh, I want to deal damage? Then I guess I'm making a fighter." And a lot fo the time I miss god-style with her. Because every time I roll a d20 as a Wizard it feels like a failure. I do not want to roll a single d20 when I make a full caster because that means the outcome is uncertain and I goofed up. I do like rolling big numbers on attacks to roll more big numbers on damage, so I sometimes make fighters. But I like my evoker. Raining down fire and death was part of the full caster fantasy I was keeping from myself. And not having so much competition for Concentration makes my spell choice so much easier. Thank you for the god wizard that made me fall in love with full casters. Thank you for this series that helped me see there's a whole spectrum to love.
I'd be interested to hear how these friends responded to your God Wizard concept after reading your guides. How long (if ever) did it take for them to realize how effective you were in that campaign?
Thank you for this, this was a great story. It would bother me a bit at that party's/DM reaction, but walking away and keeping your head high (you knew better) was pretty badass.
"Wow everything got easy once you came in, good thing to cus you were useless" Welcome to Support Maining, we meet on Thursdays as to not inconvenience anyone else. . .
You are a better person than I. Pretty sure I would be incredulous and feel compelled to point out what my tactics were. Mostly because they didn't realize what was happening over ao many combats.
That was absolutely beautiful! So glad you found inspiration in that callous treatment and did not give up! I like how thoughtful you play and present options - inspires and provides the rest of us with a role model we can strive to live up to, thank you.
That's so kind of you to care such about how Dean felt. Many people would have focused on themselves or Dean's shortcomings. I had read the story before, but these added layers are even more endearing.
It’s crazy how good battlefield control actually is. If you split the enemies in half, fight the first half, then fight the second half, you actually half the damage on average that your party takes. Let me repeat that: Mathematically, it’s the same as if you gave resistance to every part member against all the enemies attacks. It’s insane how powerful that is, but it’s so hard to realize that in the moment because you still fight all the enemies, it doesn’t really feel any different. But it is.
I love this story, so cool. Inspired me to play a god wizard as well. Your party members sound mostly innocent in their perspective, but still, sheesh, that's a serious critical failure on a check to notice the state of the battle field on all of their parts.
Reminds me of a AL game where our wizard slept the enemy caster immediately after he fireballed us (we were fireballed before initiative). Some kid with a 12 strength barbarian kept patting himself on the back at the end of the fight. I put him in his place by pointing out that our wizard shut down the enemy blaster while he (the barb) did mediocre damage to a few mobs. The look of appreciation I got from our mage was a good feeling. I was sharpshooter fighter for the record so I was literally hit or miss, but my hits shat on everyone and I was punching flying enemies out of the air, so...
You have my deepest thanks TT, I've watched all your wizard videos and it helped me so much at optimizing a character I always struggled to play: the Necromancer. I'm basically using the god wizard method in conjunction with undead minions to solve every problem. Dropping a big concentration spells and soaking up damage with disposable, cheap and most of all loyal servants helps my party be healthy most of the times, turning an otherwise controversial and often belittled archetype into a very appreciated member of the group. Keep up the good work! :D
I love this story, glad to hear the full version. It is a bit alarming that no one had the faintest idea what a divide and conquer strategy looked like though... Still, it sounds great to make everyone feel good about their characters while secretly masterminding the campaign.
One of the players at a Pathfinder table a couple years go asked me for advice on a 3rd level spell to pick for their sorcerer. They already had fireball and fly so I suggested stinking cloud. They looked at me skeptically, but I explained what the nauseated condition does and they tentatively aggreed. They used it when I suggested and it turned a fight the DM expected to be a beating for us into a cake walk. He even had to double check the book to makee sure the spell was working as written.
This is without a doubt one of my favorite and most viewed videos on D&D. I watch it whenever I join a new game. As a dungeon master and occasional PC😂 I come back to it everytime for inspiration. The “God Mage” is my favorite build. The last two full casters I’ve played have been based on this. It inspires me towards the fun of making my fellow players FEEL COOL at the table and in doing so always makes me feel better than any maxed out damage dealer I could play. ❤ Thank you for this. 😊
I used your guide to the God Wizard in my last campaign which was the underdark demon lord preconstructed. In my backstory when my character came in contact with a magical opal that my father had added to a magical crown from a dragons hoard was placed on my head I was met in another plane by the God Wizard who explained to me that I was now given all the God Wizards powers. I came to in the dungeon with the other party members who had no recollection of me coming in at all. I have to say your guide was so fun for me to follow and Qwynn Aralar was one of the best times I’ve had roll playing. Thanks brother.
I played this way a few years ago and received the same form of ridicule. Needless to say never played with that bunch of idiots ever again. They don't deserve a god wizard lol
There have been about 5 guides I've constantly referred to in forums online when i wanted to learn D&D 5e. God Wizard just kept coming up because i wanted to optimize my spellcaster Lorebard. Well that guide was literally a Magical Secret for me and my game got Optimized!! Thanks Treantmonk!!
I’m playing a very similar character. When my party saw my wizard was a mountain dwarf who took war magic and didn’t use INT as my main star they thought I was a moron. Especially when I did take mage armor. They still think it’s dumb, but since mountain dwarves get a bonus to constitution and medium armor proficiency and war magic has a ton to help you keep concentration, my spell slots are rationed better and I hardly drop concentration on my utility and buff spells. Since my INT is still kind of low, if I need damage I’ll often just cast magic missile, but more often than not I can use my turn to help one of our two barbarians set themselves up
Such a classically Confucian way of handling the situation. Well fucking played man! Reminds me of one of my favorite wizards from Chinese lore, Zhuge Liang
Nice story. :) I believe you'd mentioned it briefly in one of the Google Docs you'd made publicly available. My first contact with DND 5e theory crafting was actually through one of your posts (I think it was on EN world). It did a lot to shape my approach playing D&D in general, even when I didn't play Wizard.
This clicks your point of view into place for me and puts some of your builds like your valor bard in a new light. Thanks for posting it! I had a similar experience at my first 5e table but none of us realized until I retired my war cleric for something that could put out numbers just how valuable he had been. You'd think we'd add up those two converted misses on Sharpshooter per short rest, those bless casts, but absence makes the heart grow fonder I guess.
wow, that story brings back so many 3rd edition memories. In a lot of ways, 3rd seemed fresh but was so very conformist. one minute “play whatever you want!” next minute “wait you can’t do that!” Glad you saved the day!
Always liked this story when reading it in your guides. I've kind of done the opposite in our current campaign. I started as a god wizard and people were noticing that I did very little damage, not realising that our combats were finishing in 2-3 rounds because I freed up our paladin and barbarian to wreak havoc without getting attacked a lot. I recently changed character, mainly because I didn't like where the character was going story wise but also partly I felt that our DM was not feeling great about struggling to make combat a real challenge for us. The first session after everyone suddenly realised how much harder it got without my wizard pulling the strings, and I actually nearly died again straight away!
Not gonna lie, I don't think I'd have taken it quite so well. Like, they were dying constantly, and suddenly, they stop dying, and nobody puts two and two together as to why, and the continued calling of the character as useless? Like, I've played characters that were intentionally lower in quality but still had their purpose and had it not appreciated, but being called useless is one of those things that grinds my gears. Good on you for having a stiff upper lip about it.
Reminds me of a DMPC in a campaign from many moons ago. More or less a squad-mate who went by the name of Min-Max. He was entirely focused around support spells, never really stepped up except for one instance, but was always there to lend a helping hand. Toward the end of the campaign, it turned out that he was actually an enemy spy the entire time, but he turned face when the main villain made his power play and sacrificed himself so that the party could escape. I don't think that the DM of that game had actually ever heard of your God Wizard at the time. But surely that character was in its spirit. /storytime Also related, I was toying with the idea of a bard/sorcerer loosely based around Scheherazade. (In Arabian Nights, she's the storyteller of the overarching framing narrative) That character would probably be arranged somewhat like a God Wizard set-up, I would think. It isn't my usual style of play, but it sounds fun and different.
This honestly reminds me of a similar event that happened to me. We were all starting out with our first campaign ever and proceeded to make our characters. Everyone kind of focused on damage except for me. I decided to make a half-elf Druid because druids looked cool and I loved the whole nature magic thing. As the sessions go by, I realize that everyone was having a tougher time due to the fact that we lacked a proper support character. Everyone, from the healer to even the other Druid focused on damage almost exclusively, so I decided switch gears to focus on supporting them. I picked up spells like entangle, Faerie fire, Longstrider and proceeded to wreck my DM’s encounters. She has started to learn how to counter my abilities and tactics, but my tricks still remain as potent as ever when it comes to ensuring that the other party members get the spotlight.
As someone who started in 5e years ago and then moved to 3.5/Pathfinder I just wanted to say I love your God Wizard guide. When I built my current wizard I read your guide (along with Dictum Mortem and the conjurer handbook by Echodork) and found it really helpful and exactly the kind of style I wanted to play. I just wanted to say that your guides were and still are really impactful and thank you for all your time and effort. p.s. I initially was going to build a Malconvoker following your guide there as well.
That was a nice story. And very heartwarming reaction from you. I'd maybe go on the offensive and feel insulted that my party members were THAT oblivious to the obvious fact that my character was lowkey OP. But you took the criticism for what it was and brushed it off. I look up to that, and in a sense feel it is the spirit of the game. It'd be interesting to hear what those players think about this story now, and to hear they remembered it. No egos were hurt in the making of this campaing. I immensely enjoy your content. Thank you for contributing.
YES!!! Loved this story. I really want to see what your optimised God Wizard is. I realise most (if not all)of it will be covered by your past 10 build videos. So maybe just a quick video saying race/sub-class and spells.
It probably wouldn't as the character he played was a 3.X character rather than 5E. Probably could still make the concept work but using different spells as some have been seriously nerfed, mostly via Duration: Concentration up to...
When I first started playing 5e I remember reading your guide and using it like scripture! It totally changed how I play to this day. It’s crazy to find your channel so many years later! Thanks so much!
I read this story in your wizard guides online but it's fun hearing it again straight out of your mouth. It must feel vindicating to know that The God wizard is basically the standard now, or at least it is in my area. Sure you get the occasional blaster caster but they are quickly out classed by someone who can turn off an entire encounter with something like a hypnotic pattern (my favorite 3rd level spell and one I think makes fireball superfluous at best). Anyway, thank you for all the hard work you've put into your guides and videos.
TM, I've been reading your guides for years and they've given me so much inspiration, esp with npc wizards to help out a struggling party. Thank you so much for your contributions and it's very nice to finally make your acquaintance ^_^
Funny thing is I think WOTC has come over to this way of thinking. In 5e it seems easier to do lots of control/ disabling than a whole lot of damage with most spellcasters. Of course that could just be my perception because of great guides like this.
Loved this video. I currently habe a player following your god wizard guide in my pathfinder campaign, and he was instrumental to my group decimating an ability encounter I made.
This is such a great story, thank you for sharing it. Did the group eventually come to realize what you'd done? And have they had any reactions to how far you've evolved the playstyle?
Would love to see the 3.5 build. Love the story and play a similar build. Always went abjurer in 5e and some 3.5. I have always love tactic minded players and casters.
I absolutely love the mentality of the god wizard! My favorite character, to this day, is a god wizard that teamed up with a rogue "blender" in the 'Wrath of the Righteous' campaign. I think the balance was basically untouched, but the two of us cleared house virtually every combat regardless of being a small party. Thanks for sharing that awesome playstyle!
The mastery gap in 3.5 was my biggest beef with the system, and why I tended to play bards. By making an optimized bard, I made everyone else at the table more awesome.
i applaud you, your character, your efforts, and your mindset - i only hope that group of players has matured in their gameplay and understanding of the table dynamics - too often we do not appreciate what we do not understand
Thanks for the God Wizard guide... it really changed my mindset ages ago! when I realized you have a youtube channel this year I was really interested in getting to know the genius behind it! I used to recommend your guide to anybody who wanted to play wizard, sadly I never got the chance to actually play a wizard because I always had to DM, but I read the guide several times and it was lots of fun always.
I‘m like 99% sure I read your story in one of your guides before. And it reminded me why I not only liked your guides/information, but also felt a sympathy for the person writing it. This story beeing told, and having a face attached to it reinforces that. Keep up the great work. Loving the content on this channel so far!
I did an incantatrix build on 3.5 based on your god wizard concept and obviously he carried the party to the end of the campaing, which was extremely rare at our 3rd edition tables. Thank you!
Holy shit I can't believe THE Treantmonk has a youtube channel and I've never heard about it before. Dude, I was a little kid when 3.5 was at its heyday, and I fell in love with tabletop games through your guides and the guides of other people like logicninja. I remember I read your god wizard guide and being so captivated by the way you described the game mechanics in such a witty and clever way. Fast forward to today and tabletop is my number one hobby, all thanks in small part to you and your content. Thank you so much for brightening my childhood, and really introducing me to the world of tabletop gaming.
I want to thank you for your guide to Wizards. I have been pouring over those videos and have used them to my advantage in creating a character I just made for a campaign I'm in atm. We are going through Phandelver's Lost Mines (I'm going in blind as this is my first ever official campaign - so please no spoilers - and I'm really excited to see where this goes) and then we are going through Water Deep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage and I cannot wait to see where my character goes with this story! ^_^ She is currently a Weeb Wizard under the Order of Scribes. She will blast you, grin coyly, and then flash a peace sign as she does it. She caught the entire party off guard when she unexpectedly came upon a group of Goblins and amicably said "Hello! How are you doing?" to them in Goblin. My party wasn't aware that she spoke Goblin so their reactions were priceless! ^_^ It didn't stop the Goblins from attacking the party but she managed to help defeat them. Can't wait to see where we go next! ^_^
Playing my first DnD session this quarantine I found myself in a party with weapon wielders which made my character feel amazing when i had the perfect spells prepared
That was a good story. And now we know it. Thanks for sharing it. So, you say your Tramsmuter build is sort of like the God Wizard. Okay, now I'm going to watch that one. I'm intrigued by the concept. Because I must admit, I'm love damage-dealing spells. But focusing purely on battlefield control and buffs/debuffs sounds like it could be potentially fun after hearing this great story.
I really enjoyed your story man. It's nice to know where the concept came from. I'm playing in a 5e homebrew and having a rough time keeping everyone healed up. I don't think Cleric has the same toolbox but you've inspired me to look at more battlefield control spells.
Related Question: Was Logic Ninja's "Being Batman" guide an influence on your "God Wizard" concept? I note a similar cheekiness with respect to how the wizard relates to the rest of the party.
I agree with this completely. My first pathfinder character was very similar. Everyone in the party was trying to build damage and healing, and were really having a rough time of it. I was new to the system, martial fighting seemed to complicated, I was in a spree of constant really bad luck with rolls, and I wanted to have my own thing. I went wizard as a ratfolk, reflavored to be a small anthropomorphic white mouse with a lisp named Buttons, with a childlike outlook on life. I went all utility and buff spells to augment my party. Throughout the campaign the only thing that my character killed was a squirrel, in an attempt to impress the hunter of the group, then proceed to cry about it after, because he felt so bad about doing it. During the game, he was very possibly the most adored character in the party, and fortunately was very much appreciated. The party mostly loved the character for his personality, but also loved his buffs. They would often talk about how this little mouse had such world bending power, even though I would never do damage, but none of it was a complaint because it was for the party, lifting them up instead of overshadowing them. It also helped that he was tiny, adorable and physically weak, so he needed their help in many things, and would often ride in one of their backpacks. To this day his is one of my most beloved characters. I think the advantage I had, is that this character was played more recent, after players look at more things than just big number go boom. Since then, those people playing in the games are regularly playing buffers, and it has become a staple in that circle to have either a small player character or npc that is tiny and adorable, often also support based, possibly trying to recreate the feeling that they got, playing with Buttons. As a tactically thinking individual, I am pretty surprised that those people were to blind to notice you manipulating the battlefield in their favor. If someone started doing that in a game that I was in, I would be very encouraging. I am actually doing a more similar thing to what you did now, in a game that started recently. I got the go ahead to play the Unearthed Arcana Theurgy wizard in dnd 5e, as I have been the forever healer in most groups, and wanted to play something other than cleric or druid. My specialty in that character is removing mobility from the enemy and healing my party members. Walls are going to be a major part of that, as well as spells like move earth, and ones that cause difficult terrain and vision loss. I also manage to get him to be pretty tanky, and saved the party last night by yelling insults at the enemy to draw their attention on me, and taking the dodge action to soak up attacks. I had to take that approach, since I had run out of healing spells, and the enemies were massively over our power level. It was the third fight of the day, and every one of them were were outnumbered by enemies that had way more health than us, had extra attack that would hit for ten to sixteen damage per hit, while we were only level 3.
3.5 taught me the use of buffs. We had a high damage sorcerer in the party and I went multiclass into wizard at 7 or 8th level (i had taken over a character of someone who had moved far away), quickly realized that I could not compare to that straight class wizard but I could buff our front line guys for good effect. It wasn't too long and the sorcerer wanted to know what spells Ibwas using because our high damage low defense melee wasn't taking much damage and our tank was suddenly cranking out lots of damage. I didn't have the levels and such to have hard saving throws for the enemy or do damage appropriate but I could buff like crazy and thats what I did. Fortunately the players all realized the characters usefulness and loved it so I didn't have your ungrateful party effect but it was great pretty much everyone thought I was more useful than I did ha ha.
Recently I have used a diviner in a group that has only in last level (5th) even taking damaging leveled spells and had used his damage cantrip once but instead of control spells he has used knowledge. Knowing an ambush was coming because of diligent use of familiar and alarm spells. Using detect thoughts to know our enemies plans. I used knowledge to control the battlefield. My familiar from find familiar as well as flock of familiars would be used to scout ahead check our back trail add a set of eyes and ears fornstanding guard etc. Oh and delivering messages over long distance. This group thinks he is great. I was worried that this group would be upset but so far not so much.
I loved this peek behind the curtain. I figured that a certain amount of patience would have been necessary to hit upon many of the discoveries that lead to the GOD Wizard guide in the first place, and that level of magnanimity confirms that in spades. Thank you for that, by the way, reading the guide and seeing it discussed on the forums changed the way I think about and view playing TTRPGs in a big way. I think for the better, too, although this video really reminds me to keep in mind being kinder to my fellow players.
Chris, I have to say this concept is amazing. I have utilised your God wizard philosophy on my 8th level lore bard and so far we've only had one death in descent into avernus and even then that's because my PC wasn't around when the player died.
Powergamer here. Thank you for making the god wizard. I NEEDED this. I am very competitive person and had been newly introduced to co-op games like DnD. Finding a support-focused build that I could still optimize without doing 50+ dmg/round was and still is wonderful.
I've always loved playing 'God' style characters; characters that big up other players and make them feel awesome. Seeing someone light up when you say 'X, you are hasted', or bringing them back from the brink of death is so great to me
Just wanted to note that you inspired me to play a God wizard goblin in a 3.5 campaign were currently running. It's basically in a group of pretty much new players and it's a perfect match for that ability to make sure the party survives the battles it wouldn't otherwise... Just a whole bunch of tactical greases and casting enlarge person on the paladin fighting an ogre to make them more even, while holding of a few other enemies now on the ground in the grease... Similar to your story they half the time don't recognize I'm basically deciding the outcome of the battle now. Of course me and the dm know, I was up front about it saying exactly what I'd be doing if he allowed it and he said go for it. I love the playstyle. I've usually done weird wizards anyways, my previous ones were illusionist, enchanter(as in charm person and such)/item creator and a sad morbid story of a necromancer and his family. I never did like the whole fireball type, but I never really got into it with as much detail as when I read your God wizard guide, the many available options for awesomeness is so much fun. My only downside is being a goblin, since in 3.5 it's not a very playable race and I had to go around using illusions just to prevent the party killing me at first. So much fun though
I think Chris is being humble here. I've been playing DnD for just about as long, if not longer, and his guides have been available for some time. Playing a wizard this way is now generally considered to be the strongest way to do it - his guides are at least some, if not most, of the reason why. Tip my hat to you, Treantmonk.
did really no one figure how truly powerful battlefield control is before you figured it out ? I feel like wizards were always designed as battlefield controllers.
Thanks for sharing this story and thanks for sharing your thoughts on Wizards. Treantmonk's Temple is *the* go-to place for all things wizard. Speaking of which, will you be doing a Pathfinder 2 guide to the god wizard in the future?
I only just recently came across your channel, and never read your articles, however this has been a trade mark of mind for a while. Granted in 3.5 when i started, World of warcraft was out and it was well known how "CC" or "Crowd control" was required, and so if i brought a sorcerer (always played them over wizards personally) I would say, "Oh, he's a CC character" everyone would just nod and say "Sounds good" And in my last 3.5 campaign, I played a cleric who went alianist, who summoned spiders, alian spiders have true strike and web attacks, so i'd summon 3-5 nearly auto hitting web attacks and the party laughed at all the webbed-up, gunked enemies as my old man walked around praising his spiders. So While I can see your plight or boon i guess, the groups i played with would have totally seen your play, and all agree the power of it.
Had a similar thing happen once in a 5E campaign after using these guides; introduced a proper God-wizard just in-time for the DM to have a roc attack the party. He was concerned that he'd hit the party with something a bit too hard... until I Polymorphed the goblin ranger into a Giant Ape and he pile-drived the roc out of the sky before proceeding to swing it around like a rag-doll until it died a few turns later. It's a very nice moment when a single spell turns a fight in your favour.
DM: "Optimise away"
He didnt know what he was asking
That DM didn't know who he was talking to lololol
@@thejammiestjam That DM didn't know. Period.
What a clueless twat (assuming OP was accurate in describing Bob).
"Everyone at the table agreed"
Imagine having someone at your table having to re-roll their character to make you not feel useless, and then shitting on that new character for being useless
In his defense, I will say that "Dean" is a very nice guy, and I enjoyed my chance to play with him.
Yeah this part definitely frustrated me. It's like, someone shows up and utterly outclasses the other person playing a similar party role, I would ALWAYS expect that this player knows how to make a character.
@@beckerscantbechoosers6768 to be fair though, typically people understand optimizing other classes or roles, but can't do it very well. I mean, I love my damage Wizards, but I love support Wizards even more. Combine that with a decent damage output for a Cleric who is good with healing, buffs, and debuffs and you have an awesome duo.
@@TreantmonksTemple never sat down and compared notes with ”Dean” to get his character above a 10 damage output?
I think I can do more than that with a commoner, with a club, and no optimization.
@@AnnoyingNewslettersPage6 This is a situation where I would struggle. The goal would be for: A) 'Dean' to have more, or at least the same, amount of fun; B) The party to have more, or at least the same, amount of fun; C) Not to come off as a d.
Trying to get all of those right is a minefield. 'Dean' may enjoy having more impact, but may hate putting in effort more. The party may have more fun if Dean's character was more effective, but may not want to acknowledge that. Saying absolutely anything about either of these will likely not win you any friends, even if 100% true.
You need a real life charisma of 20 to pull it off. Usually best to just wait for 'Dean' to ask you. Or hope they take it upon themselves to find out what might be some of the more effective options, like watching youtube vids.
God Wizard, I get it now. "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all." ~ God to Bender
well... probably the remains of a computerized space probe that collided with God, but yes.
"What I find myself constantly explaining is that “being a god” doesn’t mean godlike power. I chose the name based on Greek Myths, where a god would get some hapless mortal to do their dirty work, merely interfering by magic to ensure that the hero always had the advantage. This is what a god wizard is, a wizard who lets the rest of the party have the glory, but subtly ensures through Battlefield Control, Buffing and Debuffing that the party always achieves victory." ~Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards 5e
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Wiz: Without me, you'd have been dead years ago.
Party: Wait, who are you?
DM: She's been sitting at the table for 3 years? Wiz James? Her Character was self-effacing, people, not her!
I like his attitude even though his party is clearly clueless as to his actual value to the party.
I picked up God Wizardry with an Illusion Wizard in 5e when I finally shrugged off the Forever DM chains. I dont think I managed to do it right, however, because I wound up, in order, having my character killed by the DM's 20th level Shadow Sorcerer/Demigod Self Insert for irritating another player, being banned from playing wizards in the future, and eventually leaving that friend group entirely.
Without sarcasm it was the best thing that's happened to me in years.
Idk, sounds like you did it right to me.
Fun Fact: Treantmonk is the reason Paizo nerfed control casters for PF2E
Is it sad that this is probably correct
Agree
Which is quite dumb, honestly.
But on the other hand, 4E D&D explicitly made Wizards into battlefield controllers in this style.
@@m.k.685 I know this is an old comment, but short answer: yes, but you won't be dominating like before.
Long answer: all casters got nerfed, while all martials got buffed, leading to better overall balance between classes. Martials are still typically kings of damage, but they tend to get some support and control tools to make them more versatile. Some martials such as PF2e's investigator and alchemist can lean very heavily into support, and rogues can get a lot of control abilities as they move into tier 3.
For casters, a lot of powerful spells either got nerfed (such as enlarge no longer providing a bonus to hit), or they moved up into a higher slot (such as fly being 4th level). Walls and terrain manipulation are still just as powerful as ever, though. Spells that require a save have been buffed overall - instead of successful saves always completely negating the effect, there are often four degrees of failure: critical success (beating DC by 10+), success, failure, and critical failure (failing DC by 10+). Critical successes completely negate the spell, and failure effects are not as severe, but successes will still negatively effect the creature enough to feel like you didn't waste a slot, and critical failures will often completely disable a creature for an entire fight. Save or die spells, however, were nerfed into the ground, as they have a trait that gives them reduced effects on creatures that are higher level than 2x the spell level.
Overall, you're no longer the (secret) star of the show, but you're still a vital part of the group that shouldn't be underestimated just because of low damage output.
Interesting how our collective knowledge of RPG tactics evolves. If you bring a good "controller" character into an RPG party today, I'm pretty sure your party would know what you're doing and appreciate it. It's why 5e Bards are so highly regarded despite their poor offensive ability. I'm impressed you figured this out for yourself almost 20 years ago.
It's less that he figured out that it would be the most powerful so much as he just didn't want to make anyone feel bad but knew he had to be useful too.
It is more known today because he literally wrote the book on how to do this and then it became a thing. I know that is kindof what you were saying but I felt it needed to be stated like this.
We figured it out in the 1990, before internet forums.
You just need a few people with an understanding of math in your group.
@@rogerwilco2 it's not even that they need to understand math particularly well. they just need to be willing to take a second to *do* the math
fight 2 enemies at the same time? take 2 hits, knock 1 enemy down, take 1 hit, knock the 2nd enemy down. 3 hits total.
fight 2 enemies 1 at a time? take 1 hit, knock 1 enemy down, take 1 hit, knock 2nd enemy down. 2 hits total
and battlefield control only gets that much better as the number of enemies increases.
I got a similar reaction when I introduced my sorcerer (based on your Shadow Sorc). "You don't have quickened spell? Or careful spell? You don't even have Fireball?Well alright..."
A few twinned Hastes on the Rogue and Paladin later, I think they got the point!
Im also playing shadow sirc
Having started to play a Divine Soul recently (who, admittedly, have incredibly good bonus actions anyway) - without relying on any sorcerer guides - I was very surprised why so many people love Quicken Spell and don't just spam Twinned Spell. The stuff that I was able to pull with just 1st level spells was truely filthy, twinning Guiding Bolts and Healing Words left and right. I can't wait to twin Haste or Polymorph for obvious reasons. Going for the "patented" quickened Fireball into Firebolt seems downright lame by comparison !
haste on the 'din!? thay's a way to trivialize encounters.
Twinned haste on the rogue and paladin. Oh goodness, is it powerful... As long as I kept my concentration on it.
I went for a similar idea with my Divine Soul Drow. Twinning haste, using telekinesis , blindness/deafness, along with some healing staples.
I am amazed by your ability to take this as something positive.
I would have a hard time to not be... angered? offended? triggered? by their callous ignorance.
My goal was to be optimized without overshadowing anyone. I can't imagine any way I could have surpassed the goal more. Also, we all became friends through the campaign, so it was meant and taken with that underlying friendship.
@@TreantmonksTemple You're a far kinder person than me! There's no way I could resist mocking and subsequently educating them.
I would have kept "overshadowing" the other warrior... Coddling children (no offense to your group) isn't going to make them get better at the game. Same with people not understanding how cc works and affects the battlefield... You are a more patient man than myself. Also on a side note, I have played in many campaigns where some players shine more and do "badass" stuff more frequently and I've never seen anyone get butthurt they are getting "overshadowed". It's a group effort. I am happy when I see my teammate lay the smack down on something as are my other teammates when I or anyone else does the same thing. We cheer them on in their glorious conquests instead of getting jealous because they are better than us at the game... Maybe the other fighter could have asked you for tips instead of whatever he wound up doing...
@@obeygiant8409 While I think it was amazingly stupid of them not to notice the correlation between TM rolling his godly wizard and the battles becoming "easy," at the end of the day, people play D&D to have fun. If you were a tournament level Super Smash Brothers player, would you ruthlessly crush your mates when they played with you and not let them take a single stock? I hope not. XD
@@obeygiant8409 that would require thinking, which the group (by not realising WHY it got easier) showed is unable to do.
Missing the impact of such spells in 1 fight? Sure! In 2 fights? Possible. In 3 fights? If you really didnt pay any attention during that AND previous fights, maybe.
Not understanding in the 4th consecutive fight, that suchs spells are making it easier for you? You are beyond saving, please charge headfirst into the enemy murderball to take away their turn, letting the others do actually useful stuff.
That is one of the best stories I have ever heard of about a story of winning at a table. It is downright inspiring!
I think the story of Chris's fighter is why so many people resent optimizers as "munchkins" and "min-maxers." I once had a similar experience where I made an optimized "glass" cannon that overshadowed the party fighter and only had one less AC. That fighter's player was a lot happier once the DM started dropping magic items that only his character could use and made our power levels more in-line with each other.
@@naddarr1 I think they were actually at level 3 or 4 since "Dean" only made one attack and Chris says he could attack twice "because I have Lion totem barbarian," ie, not because he was level five and everyone could do it. So 10 damage at level 4 might not be setting the world on fire, but it's perfectly reasonable. Heck, it's average damage with a greataxe at that point. I honestly can't think of a build in fifth edition that can put up 60 dpr at that level (which is probably a good thing), which is why it would have upset the other players.
@@mikehalloran93 D&D 3.5 also had the choice between being able to move more than 5 feet and getting all of your "iterative" attacks from having a high enough BAB (AKA full attacking). Lion Totem Barbarian got around that by gaining the Pounce ability, which let them get off their full number of attacks, but only when charging. So even that was less mobile than 5e combatants.
To get what 5e does with being able to move before, during, between, and after making all of your attacks, you'd have to invest 3 feats to be able to grab Spring Attack.
A Goliath in 3.5 gets a +4 to Strength at character creation, and they can wield weapons one size category larger without penalty.
If he's wielding a one handed weapon and a shield, he wouldn't be able to get the 1 1/2 Strength bonus to damage, just the Strength bonus.
But even then, wielding a one handed simple or martial weapon, let's say Warhammer, which is 1d8 for medium creature sized, and 2d6 for a large version...
Even assuming a starting roll of 15 assigned to Strength, plus 4 from its racial bonus, gives us a Strength 19, which is a +4 bonus...
We're looking at 2d6+4 damage for just walking up to an opponent and whacking them. Average damage for 2d6 is 7 (craps) +4 gives us 11.
So, *shrugs* the math checks out for a less than average Goliath, one that might have been exiled for being the runt of the litter. 😕
That's before we get into the character being a fighter, and at first level having that bonus fighter feat. So even if he didn't take weapon focus and/or power attack...idk.
Again, this is just speculation based on just an incomplete level 1 Goliath Fighter.
Found your Wizard guide last year. Changed how I play. It’s genius.
Thank you
I play in an online game as a God Wizard and the GM thinks hes pretty overpowered even though he hasn't done more than a few points of cantrip damage the entire campaign. But one day she realized she was having an impossible time killing a character she felt needed to die and she had to ask me to not cast my spells and let him die. That put me in a really weird spot. I think perceptions might be changing and some people realize how rough it can be to beat the god party. And people don't understand why it's good. We had a psionist join and she wanted to look at my spell list to copy some spells and she was like WTF is this spell list. The only thing she could think to take was fireball even though I hadn't found it useful enough to cast in the entire campaign.
I think the core of the "God Wizard" is simply playing a long game (opposed to short game).
The short game looks at what I can do right now.
The long game looks at what is the best move, regardless of ego and individual effort. He's perfectly willing to take the back row, in an effort to push the group forward overall.
This story reminded me of the one thing that people often forget, "DND is full of salty morons with exceptionally fragile egos and think wizards are all about chucking fireballs"
You really are a kind player, I would have made the wizard retire half way, played a couple of sessions with a evoker fireball chucking wizard, make a few of them die and bring back the GOD wizard...
Would really love to see a 5e build of this. Wizard is by far my favorite class because of its versatility and this idea plays into that perfectly. Thanks for sharing this!
My Transmuter build is REALLY close.
Treantmonk's Temple I’ll take a look! Thanks for the great content. Look forward to more!
@@TreantmonksTemple Actually your Auger build is my Favorite of the God Wizard builds for sure. Yes you added some damage in there but its just amazing stuff in there for "Portent" to work with.
After I read your guide it put me in a mindset of "damage is for martials, the rest is for casters." And I'm still in that mindset in a lot of ways - at least insofar as sustained, targeted damage is concerned. Whenever I made a full caster I had to challenge myself with the question: "why am I not making this a god-style caster?"
(I have a god-style bard in one campaign. I bring a god-style wizard into various one-shots.)
After you started your more diverse builds here I started diversifying my thought pattern. My god-style wizard did prepare fireball once, and was disappointed with it because of course she was - we were fighting one big boss. And after that I sort of left blasts off to the side, maybe preparing Magic Missile but mostly content to plink away with cantrips once my big spell was on the field. But now I've started up an Evoker blaster to try and challenge my thinking of "oh, I want to deal damage? Then I guess I'm making a fighter."
And a lot fo the time I miss god-style with her. Because every time I roll a d20 as a Wizard it feels like a failure. I do not want to roll a single d20 when I make a full caster because that means the outcome is uncertain and I goofed up.
I do like rolling big numbers on attacks to roll more big numbers on damage, so I sometimes make fighters.
But I like my evoker. Raining down fire and death was part of the full caster fantasy I was keeping from myself. And not having so much competition for Concentration makes my spell choice so much easier.
Thank you for the god wizard that made me fall in love with full casters. Thank you for this series that helped me see there's a whole spectrum to love.
I'd be interested to hear how these friends responded to your God Wizard concept after reading your guides. How long (if ever) did it take for them to realize how effective you were in that campaign?
"What a self-important idiot, thinking he's a god."
Thank you for this, this was a great story. It would bother me a bit at that party's/DM reaction, but walking away and keeping your head high (you knew better) was pretty badass.
"Bob" and I were already friends at this time, his ribbing was good-natured even if it was off base. I tend to give it back when I get it as well.
I bet haha
This is exactly the kind of character I want to play. Secretly keeping the party alive. Haha.
"Wow everything got easy once you came in, good thing to cus you were useless" Welcome to Support Maining, we meet on Thursdays as to not inconvenience anyone else. . .
You are a better person than I. Pretty sure I would be incredulous and feel compelled to point out what my tactics were. Mostly because they didn't realize what was happening over ao many combats.
That was absolutely beautiful! So glad you found inspiration in that callous treatment and did not give up! I like how thoughtful you play and present options - inspires and provides the rest of us with a role model we can strive to live up to, thank you.
It was honestly just good natured ribbing. It wasn't mean spirited.
Good to hear ❤️
So basically the DnD version of Moneyball.
That's so kind of you to care such about how Dean felt. Many people would have focused on themselves or Dean's shortcomings. I had read the story before, but these added layers are even more endearing.
I was around the forums on that glorious era, you were magnificent man !
It’s crazy how good battlefield control actually is. If you split the enemies in half, fight the first half, then fight the second half, you actually half the damage on average that your party takes. Let me repeat that: Mathematically, it’s the same as if you gave resistance to every part member against all the enemies attacks. It’s insane how powerful that is, but it’s so hard to realize that in the moment because you still fight all the enemies, it doesn’t really feel any different. But it is.
This is still one of the coolest optimisation stories ever.
I love this story, so cool. Inspired me to play a god wizard as well. Your party members sound mostly innocent in their perspective, but still, sheesh, that's a serious critical failure on a check to notice the state of the battle field on all of their parts.
But the campaign got easier... ;)
@@TreantmonksTemple Shazam!
Reminds me of a AL game where our wizard slept the enemy caster immediately after he fireballed us (we were fireballed before initiative). Some kid with a 12 strength barbarian kept patting himself on the back at the end of the fight. I put him in his place by pointing out that our wizard shut down the enemy blaster while he (the barb) did mediocre damage to a few mobs. The look of appreciation I got from our mage was a good feeling. I was sharpshooter fighter for the record so I was literally hit or miss, but my hits shat on everyone and I was punching flying enemies out of the air, so...
You have my deepest thanks TT, I've watched all your wizard videos and it helped me so much at optimizing a character I always struggled to play: the Necromancer. I'm basically using the god wizard method in conjunction with undead minions to solve every problem. Dropping a big concentration spells and soaking up damage with disposable, cheap and most of all loyal servants helps my party be healthy most of the times, turning an otherwise controversial and often belittled archetype into a very appreciated member of the group. Keep up the good work! :D
I love this story, glad to hear the full version. It is a bit alarming that no one had the faintest idea what a divide and conquer strategy looked like though...
Still, it sounds great to make everyone feel good about their characters while secretly masterminding the campaign.
Sometimes I watch a treantmonk video because I love his builds but get caught up in just how much of a genuinely swell person he is.
One of the players at a Pathfinder table a couple years go asked me for advice on a 3rd level spell to pick for their sorcerer. They already had fireball and fly so I suggested stinking cloud.
They looked at me skeptically, but I explained what the nauseated condition does and they tentatively aggreed.
They used it when I suggested and it turned a fight the DM expected to be a beating for us into a cake walk. He even had to double check the book to makee sure the spell was working as written.
What an awesome origin story for one of the best builds in D&D.
Thanks for making this video, man!
- Innkeeper Vase Odin
This is without a doubt one of my favorite and most viewed videos on D&D. I watch it whenever I join a new game. As a dungeon master and occasional PC😂 I come back to it everytime for inspiration. The “God Mage” is my favorite build. The last two full casters I’ve played have been based on this. It inspires me towards the fun of making my fellow players FEEL COOL at the table and in doing so always makes me feel better than any maxed out damage dealer I could play. ❤ Thank you for this. 😊
I used your guide to the God Wizard in my last campaign which was the underdark demon lord preconstructed. In my backstory when my character came in contact with a magical opal that my father had added to a magical crown from a dragons hoard was placed on my head I was met in another plane by the God Wizard who explained to me that I was now given all the God Wizards powers. I came to in the dungeon with the other party members who had no recollection of me coming in at all. I have to say your guide was so fun for me to follow and Qwynn Aralar was one of the best times I’ve had roll playing. Thanks brother.
I played this way a few years ago and received the same form of ridicule. Needless to say never played with that bunch of idiots ever again. They don't deserve a god wizard lol
There have been about 5 guides I've constantly referred to in forums online when i wanted to learn D&D 5e. God Wizard just kept coming up because i wanted to optimize my spellcaster Lorebard. Well that guide was literally a Magical Secret for me and my game got Optimized!! Thanks Treantmonk!!
I’m playing a very similar character. When my party saw my wizard was a mountain dwarf who took war magic and didn’t use INT as my main star they thought I was a moron. Especially when I did take mage armor.
They still think it’s dumb, but since mountain dwarves get a bonus to constitution and medium armor proficiency and war magic has a ton to help you keep concentration, my spell slots are rationed better and I hardly drop concentration on my utility and buff spells. Since my INT is still kind of low, if I need damage I’ll often just cast magic missile, but more often than not I can use my turn to help one of our two barbarians set themselves up
Such a classically Confucian way of handling the situation. Well fucking played man! Reminds me of one of my favorite wizards from Chinese lore, Zhuge Liang
Nice story. :) I believe you'd mentioned it briefly in one of the Google Docs you'd made publicly available.
My first contact with DND 5e theory crafting was actually through one of your posts (I think it was on EN world). It did a lot to shape my approach playing D&D in general, even when I didn't play Wizard.
This clicks your point of view into place for me and puts some of your builds like your valor bard in a new light. Thanks for posting it!
I had a similar experience at my first 5e table but none of us realized until I retired my war cleric for something that could put out numbers just how valuable he had been. You'd think we'd add up those two converted misses on Sharpshooter per short rest, those bless casts, but absence makes the heart grow fonder I guess.
I've read a part of this story in one of your God Wizard guides, if memory servers. I like the complete version even more.
wow, that story brings back so many 3rd edition memories. In a lot of ways, 3rd seemed fresh but was so very conformist. one minute “play whatever you want!” next minute “wait you can’t do that!” Glad you saved the day!
Always liked this story when reading it in your guides. I've kind of done the opposite in our current campaign. I started as a god wizard and people were noticing that I did very little damage, not realising that our combats were finishing in 2-3 rounds because I freed up our paladin and barbarian to wreak havoc without getting attacked a lot. I recently changed character, mainly because I didn't like where the character was going story wise but also partly I felt that our DM was not feeling great about struggling to make combat a real challenge for us. The first session after everyone suddenly realised how much harder it got without my wizard pulling the strings, and I actually nearly died again straight away!
Not gonna lie, I don't think I'd have taken it quite so well. Like, they were dying constantly, and suddenly, they stop dying, and nobody puts two and two together as to why, and the continued calling of the character as useless? Like, I've played characters that were intentionally lower in quality but still had their purpose and had it not appreciated, but being called useless is one of those things that grinds my gears. Good on you for having a stiff upper lip about it.
Reminds me of a DMPC in a campaign from many moons ago. More or less a squad-mate who went by the name of Min-Max. He was entirely focused around support spells, never really stepped up except for one instance, but was always there to lend a helping hand. Toward the end of the campaign, it turned out that he was actually an enemy spy the entire time, but he turned face when the main villain made his power play and sacrificed himself so that the party could escape. I don't think that the DM of that game had actually ever heard of your God Wizard at the time. But surely that character was in its spirit. /storytime
Also related, I was toying with the idea of a bard/sorcerer loosely based around Scheherazade. (In Arabian Nights, she's the storyteller of the overarching framing narrative) That character would probably be arranged somewhat like a God Wizard set-up, I would think. It isn't my usual style of play, but it sounds fun and different.
This honestly reminds me of a similar event that happened to me. We were all starting out with our first campaign ever and proceeded to make our characters. Everyone kind of focused on damage except for me.
I decided to make a half-elf Druid because druids looked cool and I loved the whole nature magic thing. As the sessions go by, I realize that everyone was having a tougher time due to the fact that we lacked a proper support character.
Everyone, from the healer to even the other Druid focused on damage almost exclusively, so I decided switch gears to focus on supporting them.
I picked up spells like entangle, Faerie fire, Longstrider and proceeded to wreck my DM’s encounters. She has started to learn how to counter my abilities and tactics, but my tricks still remain as potent as ever when it comes to ensuring that the other party members get the spotlight.
As someone who started in 5e years ago and then moved to 3.5/Pathfinder I just wanted to say I love your God Wizard guide. When I built my current wizard I read your guide (along with Dictum Mortem and the conjurer handbook by Echodork) and found it really helpful and exactly the kind of style I wanted to play. I just wanted to say that your guides were and still are really impactful and thank you for all your time and effort.
p.s. I initially was going to build a Malconvoker following your guide there as well.
That was a nice story. And very heartwarming reaction from you. I'd maybe go on the offensive and feel insulted that my party members were THAT oblivious to the obvious fact that my character was lowkey OP.
But you took the criticism for what it was and brushed it off. I look up to that, and in a sense feel it is the spirit of the game. It'd be interesting to hear what those players think about this story now, and to hear they remembered it.
No egos were hurt in the making of this campaing. I immensely enjoy your content. Thank you for contributing.
YES!!! Loved this story. I really want to see what your optimised God Wizard is. I realise most (if not all)of it will be covered by your past 10 build videos. So maybe just a quick video saying race/sub-class and spells.
It probably wouldn't as the character he played was a 3.X character rather than 5E. Probably could still make the concept work but using different spells as some have been seriously nerfed, mostly via Duration: Concentration up to...
When I first started playing 5e I remember reading your guide and using it like scripture! It totally changed how I play to this day. It’s crazy to find your channel so many years later!
Thanks so much!
I read this story in your wizard guides online but it's fun hearing it again straight out of your mouth. It must feel vindicating to know that The God wizard is basically the standard now, or at least it is in my area. Sure you get the occasional blaster caster but they are quickly out classed by someone who can turn off an entire encounter with something like a hypnotic pattern (my favorite 3rd level spell and one I think makes fireball superfluous at best). Anyway, thank you for all the hard work you've put into your guides and videos.
I’ve always wanted to hear the backstory of this. I love the concept of this since you mentioned this on the Paizo forums.
TM, I've been reading your guides for years and they've given me so much inspiration, esp with npc wizards to help out a struggling party. Thank you so much for your contributions and it's very nice to finally make your acquaintance ^_^
"You don't have Fireball? What does your character even _do_?" 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I would love to see more stories like this on your channel. Reminds me of Spoony's Counter Monkey series
This is my best story by far. I don't really have any others that stand out like this one.
Dude, what a brutal story!! Powerful though. You tell the story like a true sage, and you've got my respect.
Funny thing is I think WOTC has come over to this way of thinking. In 5e it seems easier to do lots of control/ disabling than a whole lot of damage with most spellcasters. Of course that could just be my perception because of great guides like this.
Loved this video. I currently habe a player following your god wizard guide in my pathfinder campaign, and he was instrumental to my group decimating an ability encounter I made.
Omg you have a youtube channel :D I have loved your handbooks in playing crazy min-max 3.5 games!
This is such a great story, thank you for sharing it. Did the group eventually come to realize what you'd done? And have they had any reactions to how far you've evolved the playstyle?
Fascinating...as a lover of "toolkit" type builds, I really need to try adopting this philosophy myself!
The God Wizard is still my favorite play style!
Would love to see the 3.5 build. Love the story and play a similar build. Always went abjurer in 5e and some 3.5. I have always love tactic minded players and casters.
I absolutely love the mentality of the god wizard! My favorite character, to this day, is a god wizard that teamed up with a rogue "blender" in the 'Wrath of the Righteous' campaign. I think the balance was basically untouched, but the two of us cleared house virtually every combat regardless of being a small party. Thanks for sharing that awesome playstyle!
this video is giving me all the feels. the majority of my characters are primarily to support my allies and cause problems for my enemies.
That's a great story Treant! Also, great job being a fantastic player and friend in that campaign.
The mastery gap in 3.5 was my biggest beef with the system, and why I tended to play bards. By making an optimized bard, I made everyone else at the table more awesome.
i applaud you, your character, your efforts, and your mindset - i only hope that group of players has matured in their gameplay and understanding of the table dynamics - too often we do not appreciate what we do not understand
Thanks for the God Wizard guide... it really changed my mindset ages ago! when I realized you have a youtube channel this year I was really interested in getting to know the genius behind it! I used to recommend your guide to anybody who wanted to play wizard, sadly I never got the chance to actually play a wizard because I always had to DM, but I read the guide several times and it was lots of fun always.
I‘m like 99% sure I read your story in one of your guides before. And it reminded me why I not only liked your guides/information, but also felt a sympathy for the person writing it.
This story beeing told, and having a face attached to it reinforces that.
Keep up the great work. Loving the content on this channel so far!
I did an incantatrix build on 3.5 based on your god wizard concept and obviously he carried the party to the end of the campaing, which was extremely rare at our 3rd edition tables. Thank you!
Great story dude. Always fun to hear about a defining moment in someone's gaming career.
Holy shit I can't believe THE Treantmonk has a youtube channel and I've never heard about it before. Dude, I was a little kid when 3.5 was at its heyday, and I fell in love with tabletop games through your guides and the guides of other people like logicninja. I remember I read your god wizard guide and being so captivated by the way you described the game mechanics in such a witty and clever way. Fast forward to today and tabletop is my number one hobby, all thanks in small part to you and your content.
Thank you so much for brightening my childhood, and really introducing me to the world of tabletop gaming.
Your story brought tears to my eyes.
I want to thank you for your guide to Wizards. I have been pouring over those videos and have used them to my advantage in creating a character I just made for a campaign I'm in atm. We are going through Phandelver's Lost Mines (I'm going in blind as this is my first ever official campaign - so please no spoilers - and I'm really excited to see where this goes) and then we are going through Water Deep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage and I cannot wait to see where my character goes with this story! ^_^
She is currently a Weeb Wizard under the Order of Scribes. She will blast you, grin coyly, and then flash a peace sign as she does it. She caught the entire party off guard when she unexpectedly came upon a group of Goblins and amicably said "Hello! How are you doing?" to them in Goblin. My party wasn't aware that she spoke Goblin so their reactions were priceless! ^_^
It didn't stop the Goblins from attacking the party but she managed to help defeat them. Can't wait to see where we go next! ^_^
Wonderful story Chris. Thank you for sharing this with us. Great work as always.
I'm just shocked they still thought you were useless when PC's suddenly stopped dying.
I am new to the channel and have only watched about 10 videos. You alway struck me as a smart nice guy. Sir after this you are a prince.
Playing my first DnD session this quarantine I found myself in a party with weapon wielders which made my character feel amazing when i had the perfect spells prepared
That was a good story. And now we know it. Thanks for sharing it. So, you say your Tramsmuter build is sort of like the God Wizard. Okay, now I'm going to watch that one. I'm intrigued by the concept. Because I must admit, I'm love damage-dealing spells. But focusing purely on battlefield control and buffs/debuffs sounds like it could be potentially fun after hearing this great story.
The Transmuter build is definitely the closest to that build in theme.
I really enjoyed your story man. It's nice to know where the concept came from. I'm playing in a 5e homebrew and having a rough time keeping everyone healed up. I don't think Cleric has the same toolbox but you've inspired me to look at more battlefield control spells.
Often damage prevention is more effective than damage removal.
Related Question: Was Logic Ninja's "Being Batman" guide an influence on your "God Wizard" concept?
I note a similar cheekiness with respect to how the wizard relates to the rest of the party.
It was absolutely an influence on the style of writing.
I agree with this completely. My first pathfinder character was very similar. Everyone in the party was trying to build damage and healing, and were really having a rough time of it. I was new to the system, martial fighting seemed to complicated, I was in a spree of constant really bad luck with rolls, and I wanted to have my own thing.
I went wizard as a ratfolk, reflavored to be a small anthropomorphic white mouse with a lisp named Buttons, with a childlike outlook on life. I went all utility and buff spells to augment my party. Throughout the campaign the only thing that my character killed was a squirrel, in an attempt to impress the hunter of the group, then proceed to cry about it after, because he felt so bad about doing it. During the game, he was very possibly the most adored character in the party, and fortunately was very much appreciated.
The party mostly loved the character for his personality, but also loved his buffs. They would often talk about how this little mouse had such world bending power, even though I would never do damage, but none of it was a complaint because it was for the party, lifting them up instead of overshadowing them. It also helped that he was tiny, adorable and physically weak, so he needed their help in many things, and would often ride in one of their backpacks. To this day his is one of my most beloved characters. I think the advantage I had, is that this character was played more recent, after players look at more things than just big number go boom.
Since then, those people playing in the games are regularly playing buffers, and it has become a staple in that circle to have either a small player character or npc that is tiny and adorable, often also support based, possibly trying to recreate the feeling that they got, playing with Buttons.
As a tactically thinking individual, I am pretty surprised that those people were to blind to notice you manipulating the battlefield in their favor. If someone started doing that in a game that I was in, I would be very encouraging. I am actually doing a more similar thing to what you did now, in a game that started recently. I got the go ahead to play the Unearthed Arcana Theurgy wizard in dnd 5e, as I have been the forever healer in most groups, and wanted to play something other than cleric or druid. My specialty in that character is removing mobility from the enemy and healing my party members. Walls are going to be a major part of that, as well as spells like move earth, and ones that cause difficult terrain and vision loss. I also manage to get him to be pretty tanky, and saved the party last night by yelling insults at the enemy to draw their attention on me, and taking the dodge action to soak up attacks. I had to take that approach, since I had run out of healing spells, and the enemies were massively over our power level. It was the third fight of the day, and every one of them were were outnumbered by enemies that had way more health than us, had extra attack that would hit for ten to sixteen damage per hit, while we were only level 3.
3.5 taught me the use of buffs. We had a high damage sorcerer in the party and I went multiclass into wizard at 7 or 8th level (i had taken over a character of someone who had moved far away), quickly realized that I could not compare to that straight class wizard but I could buff our front line guys for good effect. It wasn't too long and the sorcerer wanted to know what spells Ibwas using because our high damage low defense melee wasn't taking much damage and our tank was suddenly cranking out lots of damage. I didn't have the levels and such to have hard saving throws for the enemy or do damage appropriate but I could buff like crazy and thats what I did. Fortunately the players all realized the characters usefulness and loved it so I didn't have your ungrateful party effect but it was great pretty much everyone thought I was more useful than I did ha ha.
Recently I have used a diviner in a group that has only in last level (5th) even taking damaging leveled spells and had used his damage cantrip once but instead of control spells he has used knowledge. Knowing an ambush was coming because of diligent use of familiar and alarm spells. Using detect thoughts to know our enemies plans. I used knowledge to control the battlefield. My familiar from find familiar as well as flock of familiars would be used to scout ahead check our back trail add a set of eyes and ears fornstanding guard etc. Oh and delivering messages over long distance. This group thinks he is great. I was worried that this group would be upset but so far not so much.
I loved this peek behind the curtain. I figured that a certain amount of patience would have been necessary to hit upon many of the discoveries that lead to the GOD Wizard guide in the first place, and that level of magnanimity confirms that in spades.
Thank you for that, by the way, reading the guide and seeing it discussed on the forums changed the way I think about and view playing TTRPGs in a big way. I think for the better, too, although this video really reminds me to keep in mind being kinder to my fellow players.
Chris, I have to say this concept is amazing. I have utilised your God wizard philosophy on my 8th level lore bard and so far we've only had one death in descent into avernus and even then that's because my PC wasn't around when the player died.
Powergamer here. Thank you for making the god wizard. I NEEDED this. I am very competitive person and had been newly introduced to co-op games like DnD. Finding a support-focused build that I could still optimize without doing 50+ dmg/round was and still is wonderful.
I've always loved playing 'God' style characters; characters that big up other players and make them feel awesome.
Seeing someone light up when you say 'X, you are hasted', or bringing them back from the brink of death is so great to me
Just wanted to note that you inspired me to play a God wizard goblin in a 3.5 campaign were currently running. It's basically in a group of pretty much new players and it's a perfect match for that ability to make sure the party survives the battles it wouldn't otherwise... Just a whole bunch of tactical greases and casting enlarge person on the paladin fighting an ogre to make them more even, while holding of a few other enemies now on the ground in the grease... Similar to your story they half the time don't recognize I'm basically deciding the outcome of the battle now. Of course me and the dm know, I was up front about it saying exactly what I'd be doing if he allowed it and he said go for it.
I love the playstyle. I've usually done weird wizards anyways, my previous ones were illusionist, enchanter(as in charm person and such)/item creator and a sad morbid story of a necromancer and his family. I never did like the whole fireball type, but I never really got into it with as much detail as when I read your God wizard guide, the many available options for awesomeness is so much fun. My only downside is being a goblin, since in 3.5 it's not a very playable race and I had to go around using illusions just to prevent the party killing me at first. So much fun though
a god-blin
omg! What a wonderful and inspiring story . Thank you!
I think Chris is being humble here. I've been playing DnD for just about as long, if not longer, and his guides have been available for some time.
Playing a wizard this way is now generally considered to be the strongest way to do it - his guides are at least some, if not most, of the reason why.
Tip my hat to you, Treantmonk.
Your Wizard guide, changed my life forever. xD
Party: refuses to optimize character
Chris: Fine i will do it for you
did really no one figure how truly powerful battlefield control is before you figured it out ? I feel like wizards were always designed as battlefield controllers.
Thanks for sharing this story and thanks for sharing your thoughts on Wizards. Treantmonk's Temple is *the* go-to place for all things wizard. Speaking of which, will you be doing a Pathfinder 2 guide to the god wizard in the future?
I only just recently came across your channel, and never read your articles, however this has been a trade mark of mind for a while. Granted in 3.5 when i started, World of warcraft was out and it was well known how "CC" or "Crowd control" was required, and so if i brought a sorcerer (always played them over wizards personally) I would say, "Oh, he's a CC character" everyone would just nod and say "Sounds good" And in my last 3.5 campaign, I played a cleric who went alianist, who summoned spiders, alian spiders have true strike and web attacks, so i'd summon 3-5 nearly auto hitting web attacks and the party laughed at all the webbed-up, gunked enemies as my old man walked around praising his spiders. So While I can see your plight or boon i guess, the groups i played with would have totally seen your play, and all agree the power of it.
Had a similar thing happen once in a 5E campaign after using these guides; introduced a proper God-wizard just in-time for the DM to have a roc attack the party. He was concerned that he'd hit the party with something a bit too hard... until I Polymorphed the goblin ranger into a Giant Ape and he pile-drived the roc out of the sky before proceeding to swing it around like a rag-doll until it died a few turns later. It's a very nice moment when a single spell turns a fight in your favour.