I see what you did here Mr Treantmonk. You are not really comparing them for a winner but contrasting them so that a player has a better idea of the relative strengths and weaknesses of both after the Tasha really rebalanced things a bit. You are not going to say “it is always the Wizard. “ TM: “The Chronurger wins” Me: dang it.
Spell Quality > Spell Quantity IMO. Not to mention when speaking about optimized builds between the two you are going to see virtually the same spells on each. That and I think Divine Soul is better than Wizard once you get to higher levels of play. The only thing I dislike about 5th Ed was they allowed Wizard's to "borrow" some Sorcerer features to make the game new player friendly.
@Remy B that, and in 3e Wizards straight up just got bonus metamagic feats every 5 levels. Metamagic was always more of a Wizard thing and it struck extremely odd when learning 5e that it became a Sorcerer exclusive feature
@Remy B but the sorcerer's only advantage over wizard in 3E was spontaneous casting. Not needing to prep your spells ahead of time. Sorcerers got more spell slots, but they lagged a level behind on spell progression. So you didn't learn 2nd level spells until level 4, 3rd level spells at level 6. It was like multiclassing without any benefits. Meanwhile the wizard got magic item crafting feats for free. Like spontaneous casting in 3rd edition, WOTC overcounted the power of metamagic. While nice, it doesn't compare to the number of spells known and the superior spell list. Sorcery points are great but at 1/level per long rest, they are in short supply. And you only get a few metamagic options. Face it, the stack is still in the wizard's favor.
@@Booklat1 I multiclassed 3 levels of Paladin into an Arcana Cleric so my channel divinity has other uses. I used to dislike the dispel + heal feature until they added Aura of Vitality as an additional spells for Clerics. I also took magic initiate feat to get the Druid's Shillelagh to do booming blade/green flame blade + potent spellcasting nonsense.
@@lordvectra7821 you did some things I would too, specially the cantrips What I like arcana cleric for is a 1 lvl dip for monks. So now you get to run over walls and firebolt people from far away ( does booming blade work with stunning strike? I’ll have to check that on?)
me: Im gonna go divine soul sorcerer/eldritch knight fighter my gm: ooh, a bit of healing eh? me: =u= my gm: *looking at party of dps* a bit of healing ...right? me: *mechniacal laughing* (i saw a Legend of Korra build i wanna try it for myself XD)
As someone who mains sorcerer, I am so grateful for the Tasha's sorcerer sub classes, playing aberrant mind and clockwork soul has been a blast, if not simply because I get to know more spells.
@@zaneearldufour my DM agreed to grant me extra spells known for my dragonborn sorcerer because I am going really heavy on the dragon theme; so he curated a list of 10 spells between Transmutation and Abjuration schools that he felt were fitting for a dragon themed sorcerer, including spells from Fizban's Treasury of Dragons. The bump is really amazing to make my preferred theme not feel underpowered compared to other options.
17:52 Aberrant Mind Sorcerers get access to Dissonant Whispers. Dissonant Whispers is a top-notch level 1 concentration-less control spell, which can do a lot of damage from opportunity attacks. It's even better when twinned. It's definitely something I'd love on my Wizard's list!
I think one of the discussion points that would be important could be magic items. The new magic items for sorcerers are by far stronger than the ones for wizards (disadvantage on all metamagic spells or a free misty step with each metamagices spells). If there is a significant chance to obtain these items (or you start at a higher level with magic items to begin with) I think sorcerer surpasses the wizard.
Important note regarding multiclassing spellcasters with Artificier. When calculating your spell caster level to determine your spell slots you take half of your artificer levels rounded up, not down. This is the only half caster to do this. Due to this, a single level dip into Artificer will not impact spell progression for an otherwise pure full caster. Not that this impacts the final result at all. I still think it’s quite interesting. Edit: should have said spell slot progression instead of spell progression as multiclassing will still impact which spells can be prepared (an artificer 1/wizard x will still have 3rd level slots at level 5, they will not be able to prepare spells higher than second level as they will only be a wizard 4 at this point)
Well, an artificer can prepare 1/2 level + Int Mod spells. So (eventually, with a single level dip) 6 extra spells instead of the two a wizards normally would get, plus 4 extra options not on the wizard list (Cure Wounds, Faerie Fire, Purify Food and Drink and Sanctuary) So, you'll get more overall but you'll still feel the difference whenever you get spell slots you can use just to upcast and then have to wait one more level to actually learn spells of that level
Only issue is that spells known/prepared/all that progression ignores any multiclassing, so you still get the spells for a given spell slot level above 1st a level later with a 1 level dip, even if your spell SLOT progression does not lag behind. In other words: You get Fireball and such late if you multiclass. Accessible spell progression is no the same as spell slot progression.
I hope Treantmonk does a video of “Wizard vs X” for every class so we can refer people to those whenever they’re being ignorant and claiming anything other than “Wizard is King”
Only one I ever hear get suggested as a close competitor is cleric. There’s some truth to that, but I think the insanity of wizards at high level can be game breaking without really trying that hard
“There are a lot of really good wizard subclasses” but you can’t take them all at once. You can’t have the weapons of a blade singer, arcane ward of an abjuration, sculpt spells of an evoker, and the twin enchantments of an enchanted at the same time. You can take clockwork soul, a dip in Hexblade, and the appropriate metamagics to replicate all of those at once.
Sure, but is a better class found by having a single really good subclass that is all you play, or is it having a lot of different subclasses with really good options? I find it really telling that only three sorcerer subclasses were even mentioned. Divine Soul which makes them a cleric with metamagic. And the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork soul which are the only sorcerer subclasses that get additional spells known. So, there are only two sorcerer subclasses that seem like they can even compete with... seven of the wizard subclasses?
Subclasses are a fundamental part of a class though and the existence of weaker options doesn’t negate strong options. Yes, the base class has a fundamental weakness due to limited spell choice but they released a patch in the form of AM and CS. Also, you can only pick one wizard subclass per character. So, listing off “pros” for wizards that cherry pick the best options from all of the subclasses isn’t a one-to-one comparison with saying “pick clockwork soul.” Subclasses aren’t free.
@@arbitrary_mike7833 I'm not saying they are free, but to even be considered for the conversation Sorcerer subclasses had to be limited. And in fact, only the clockwork soul beat the wizard's baseline spell list in comparison. So, sure "play the clockwork soul" is easy enough to say, but it could also be said that to even compete with any wizard build you need to play a clockwork soul. That doesn't make it sound like sorcerers can compete, that makes it sound like a specific sorcerer build can compete with any given wizard build. And it is a sorcerer build that relies on massive changes to how the base class functions
I think we’re saying the same thing? Yes, subclassless wizard is better than subclassless sorc. Base sorcerer is not good so WotC put in a subclass (or two if you count AM) that fixes it’s major flaws and bring it closer to parity. So, base wizard beats base sorc, but when you add CS in to the mix then you can be close to parity AND have more options for cool tricks via metamagic. So, if you want to be a good sorc then pick a Tasha’s subclass and you’ll be close to on par with a wizard and where Sorcs should have been to start with.
@@arbitrary_mike7833 We are pretty close. I just thought it was weird that people were upset that he was comparing multiple wizard subclasses to the Clockwork, when to me it seemed more like the clockwork was the only one even close enough to make comparing them worthwhile. It isn't a matter of "you can't be multiple subclasses" it is a matter of only a single (maybe two) subclass reaching parity.
I really like the shadow sorcerer too, although overall not better than clockwork and aberrant, you get to summon a direwolf that gives disadvantage on spell saving throws to your target, as a bonus action.
Those sorc subclasses can have more spells known for sure, but the fact that wizards can learn spells from spellbooks and scrolls make them really flexible in that area, and I think the difference is even narrower. One can argue that it is not certain that you will find spells to copy to your book during a campaign, but in my experience, even in low-magic settings and campaigns, scrolls and other wizards are still a thing =P So that's just to add more praise to the Wizard overall
A few things, the reliance on war mage for initiative I think is slightly overblown especially because it negates your gish bladesinger, also Many of the wizard wins for subclasses were distributed, while the sorc ones were all condensed, the two new subclasses get ALL of the advantages, making either of them more powerful than any single wizard subclass. Then lastly the big one not accounted for is that a huge percentage of the game is social and cha dominates int in this category. With these in mind, in the narrow window that utilizes just these two sub classes, I think sorc takes the crown. This coming from someone who has mained many wizards in the past and loves wizards.
I personally disagree just on the factor of divination wizard being better than any of the sorc subclasses Also, sorcerer subclasses outside of the 2 in tashas are worse than every wizard subclass outside of transmutation, your average wizard is significantly better than an average sorcerer, because sorc really relying on two subclasses too be good is a huge weakness
Tldr, I would say sorc is king hands down. You cant beat the usefulness of metamagic with wiz subclasses. I think the hand-waving of divine soul for spells options is a serious miss. While I do agree that the downside of the divine soul vs sorc is the number of spells known, the effectiveness of the cleric spell list in addition to sorc is far better. Rather than trying to prepare a lot of spells that won't be effective, the divine soul has options that are always effective. The divine soul has the party face, healing and buff options (and I'd argue they are also better blasters) that the wizard can't do. The wizard has a large spell selection, but they are only useful for crowd control and aoe damage. And the sorc can fill those roles too. The wiz can buff themselves, but can't do much for allies. Divine soul really provides better usefulness through bless, healing and restoration spells. If you give abjuration wiz a feat to help them recharge arcane ward, then any sorc can take wiz ritual casting, increased metamagic, or Eldritch invocations that can turn sorc into much better blaster than the wizard can be. Even without multiclassing, feats like spell sniper, magic initiate add to spells known but unlike feytouched or shadow touched, the casting modifier matters.
Have you heard of our lord and saviour Chron? Also, many of the Wizard subs get really powerful gimmicks on top of being Wizards. I still believe Wizards are on top.
I love your videos so much Mr Treantmonk. My two favorite builds for Wizard and Sorcerer take them and make them into something different: a CBE SS Bladesinger with a dip in Fighter for Con saves and fighting style that utilizes Blur and Greater Invis for defense and Offense; and a Devotion Paladin 6 Clockwork Sorcerer X that is more focused on buffing up its melee capabilities to avoid damage and to output heavy damage. I love both of these classes so much and look forward to your video on cleric! Twilight ftw!
Agree with most of it, BUT in the end you were combining every Wizard good feature on "one class" against CW and AB sorcerer. I mean, yeah Wizard have way more consistent and good features across there subclasses but picking one mean forfeiting others... While sorcerer it kind of have most of good aspects concentrated on Tasha's S.Classes.
Certainly a party full of wizards would be more powerful than a party full of sorcerers but I agree. You can't compare the best wizard subclass in each category against two sorcerer subclasses and hope to have it be very close. And yet it is. We will see how this all shakes out when TM does the class ranking for sorcerer and wizards. Aside from chronurgist, is there a wiazrd subclass that blows away the AB or CS?
He realizes this. I think the whole point of the video was just showing how good these new sorcerers are. For me Abberant mind Sorcerer is just crazy good. They just have more sustain than any other spell caster i have ever played. 14 castings of synaptic static a day at level 10. Who cares about spell slot recovery. i just feel that these sorcerer subclasses where not needed. They should have just added known spells to every existing Sorcerer subclass.
@@rothgartheviking85814 casts? I don't get it. How? Maybe you misunderstood the lvl 6 feature, it's use SorcererPoint x Spell level. Not 1 SP per spell.
@@tiradentes4525 I don't get it either. If you convert all spell slots to sorcery points, you still only have 51 sorcery points so you can only cast synaptic stairs 10 times.
I can't decide if I agree or not. I have never played in a campaign in the last 8 years where I have hit over level 14 so the Aberrant and Clockwork spell advantage along with the meta magic flexibility really speaks to me. Great video/analysis as always though!
Perhaps I missed it, which wizard is better than clockwork soul sorcerer from levels 1-20? you mention several times that you can't pick multiple subclasses, but don't tie yourself down to one wizard subclass the way you did with sorcerer.
I think he ties himself to one subclass of sorcerer because it has the best chance of being comparatively better then a wizard subclass. Sorcerer all things considered is a better base class and all subclasses are more or so add-on’s. Wizard all things considered has much more emphasis on it’s subclasses and is meant to be built into a subclass more. The wizards subclasses are much more consistent but each one different, while the sorcerers subclass isn’t really much focus, it’s more or so the sorcerer class itself. Clockwork soul is an exception to this however and is quite powerful, therefore he uses it as the best comparison to the wizards unique yet consistent subclasses.
Because to even attempt to bridge the gap you need to be aberrant or clockwork, because the other sorcerer subclasses have very low spells known (and some are downright meh or terrible for most your playtime like draconic or storm). I think this shows overall that the wizard is more reliable or stronger in a lot of situations. And even clockwork soul isnt perfect, bastion of law is pretty expensive.
“To get armor agathys they need to take a feat” or play a mark of warding dwarf and become the arcane battle-rager, the merging of dwarven tradition and magical advancements! There’s magic in this beard!
That's pretty much my abjurer and let me tell you, he does not go down easily I just learned contingency and having an extra 25 HP on top of ward and ANOTHER armor of agathys is GOOD
Most DM's don't allow Eberon Race unless playing an Eberon campaign. For me, this falls into the same category as the Chronurgist. If you can use them they are powerful but they don't really fit into the normal comparisons that Chris is making here.
Very comprehensive. I love it. But I'd like to add another point in the Wizard's favor: player friendliness. Because a Wizard learns far more spells than they can ever prepare simultaneously, and can add any number of additional spells to their spellbook when given the opportunity by the DM, they remain far more flexible than any Sorcerer, regardless of which sourcebooks are allowed. An inexperienced player can quite easily build and play a Wizard that is fun and effective, even with a fair few bad decisions, because they can experiment with different spells and choose to stop preparing the bad ones. In fact, IMO, Wizards are the third *easiest* character for a novice player to make, after a Rogue or Barbarian. And a Sorcerer is perhaps the most complicated and challenging class to build effectively, or at least it's in contention with the Warlock and Artificer.
I agree with this. However acquiring additional spells is DM dependent. My DM rarely makes this an option or even thinks of this. If your DM is provides additional spells. This ability is amazing.
@@rothgartheviking858 For an inexperienced player, most DMs would be somewhat generous and might even curate the player's spellbook with some iconic and versatile options. Even if they don't, a spellbook will have more than twice as many spells as your level by default. That's a ton of options and room for forgiveness.
I would argue against this. I think cleric is a much easier class for new players. You get whole spell list to prepare from each day! You get up to 10 more spells prepared through divine spells than wiz and you don't have to worry about messing up chosing spells on level up. Just prepare new ones the next day. Wiz have to spell all party gold just to add a few spells. Clerics have better ac than wiz and can fill more party roles. Don't make new player a healbot, let them deal divine fury.
@@fasterpet Yes, Clerics are fairly simple compared to most classes. And they are among the best performing classes at low levels. Like most classes, they can fill a variety of different party roles, but they are not nearly as versatile as a Wizard in that respect. They also have quite a disparity between their best spells and worst spells. For example, a Cleric player that doesn't know better and never uses Bless, or Spiritual Weapon, or Spirit Guardians will have a very different impact on their party. They also have an additional limited resource to manage in their Channel Divinity. Finally, Clerics have to choose their subclass right away at level 1. Don't get me wrong, I think Clerics, Druids, and Fighters are solid choices for a new player to wrap their head around, but Rogues, Barbarians, and Wizards are even better.
@@hangover89 I assume because you can copy a spell scroll into your book. That doesn't mean you can cast the spell though, unless you have higher level spell slots than from your wizard level from multiclassing into another full caster. That's the only explanation I can come up with and it's pretty fringe advantage as it requires your DM to reward you for something that's already beneficial to you.
Amazing breakdown! I agree with you despite the sorcerer being my favorite class. When it comes to utility, recovery, and spell-milage the wizard is on top. But I often find myself to even use all my spell slots at certain levels when playing a full caster. The sorcerer can just break the spell action economy in ways the wizard can't touch. Twin spell essentially doubles the effectiveness, chance of success, or halves the amount of turns a wizard would take depending on the spell. Subtle spell makes you immune to counter spell basically, and quicken spell is amazing for gish builds. If your typically adventuring day has less than 10 rounds of combat on average, than I think the sorcerer slightly edges out the wizard.
Two things, one is that those really good class features would mean giving up in other area's where you were comparing certain sub-classes cant have portent and battle magic, the second is gear, I think Tasha's brought the sorcerer ahead on equipment with the blood vial vs arcane grimoire and the other tomes vs shards. I think both considerations are worth half a point each, in the first case as you said about defense vs attack you can't choose more than one so winning in any one category means loosing in others, and I'd say gear is only worth half a point because many games will have non standard gear.
Not having ritual casting is a big downside IMO. Being able to cast detect magic (in particular), without using a spell slot is a BIG deal, at least in the campaigns that I've played in. There are days where I'll use detect magic 3 to 4 times, and I wouldn't feel as though that would really be an option playing a sorcerer. Not to mention leomund's tiny hut, rary's telepathic bond, comprehend languages, unseen servant, phantom steed, and the occasional water breathing...Being able to cast ALL of these spells without using a spell slot or a spell preparation is a big goddamn deal in my eyes, and it directly impacts my appreciation of my character as a spell caster from an RP perspective. YES, you can take the ritual caster feat, but then you're devoting a fair number of your spells known to replicating the baseline wizard, and as Treantmonk said, "feats aren't free." I would go so far as to add the entirety of the wizard ritual spell list in some way shape or form to the column for wizard's prepared spells. Granted, not all of these spells are particularly useful, but those that are tend to be VERY useful often enough to warrant mention. I do agree however that clockwork soul and aberrant mind are VAST improvements over the baseline sorcerer, so much so that in some areas they can excel over the wizard, particularly in combat due to metamagic being very powerful. Which is a point Treantmonk made in his first video, just wanted to point this out because it's a point worth repeating.
In adventurer's league, ritual casting is not such a big deal - and other classes often can rit cast the main spells: detect magic and comp language. Water breathing rarely matters - rhory's is great but rarely matters. Unseen - tensors disk - alarm - almost never matter. Identify almost never matters and won't reveal some nasty curses. In a lot of other campaigns, it's similar.
what do you mean without using a spell slot? No class has to spend a spell slot to cast any ritual spell as long as you spend whatever the time is to cast plus 10 mins. Do you mean that at least a wizard doesnt have to prepare the spell while all the other classes must have it as a spell known to cast which reduces the number of other spells they know?
@@robertlynch1834 sorcerers can't ritual cast. Period. I mentioned not using a spell slot as a point of comparison between the two classes. I meant exactly what I said.
@@johneubank8543 I've never played in AL, so I had no knowledge of what that style of play is like. In the games my friends and I run, ritual casting is an invaluable resource, but clearly, by virtue of your statement, groups vary a lot. I've used Tenser's floating disk several times in the past, but I agree it isn't invaluable. Water breathing is admittedly campaign dependent. Unseen servant can be used in lots of creative ways, too many to list in a youtube comment reply. Rary's telepathic bond is honestly an incredible spell, especially considering a wizard can cast it without a spell slot. It's useful during infiltration, exploration, and possibly even during combat for coordinating maneuvers without letting the enemy know what you're planning.
@@brooksington4696 My point is that ritual casting isn't always "invaluable" in all ways 5e is played. In your way, it is. Zillions of us play AL - in my experience, it's usually not valuable or needed. Even Rary's - super handy - but not needed. Games run just fine w/out it. Modules are usually short - you can burn a slot - it usually won't matter. What matters in AL most of the time is respecting the action economy - fights are few and short duration - to be effective you want things to miss STs (heightened can be used many times - portent is great, but there are few, and you can roll both high). If fighting a caster, u don't want to be counterspelled (subtle). Sometimes it's hard to control things in modules - they're designed that way or a DM is tired of players making things too easy and uses other monsters, that are hard to control - you want to survive - Quicken and dodge or Quicken and cast Blade Ward. Wiz can go abj, but w/ sorc all can use these action-economy-respecting metas. Wiz is still great - but sorc, before forcecage , in many modules is actually a little better.
you missed an important detail when a wizard multiclasses into artificer. if you take just one level of artificer you dont lose any spellcaster levels, because of the way it is computed. and you also gain THE ENTIRE artificer spell list, which includes not too many but some rather nice spells. you dont need to learn artificer spells. you already know ALL OF THEM.....all you need to do is prepare them if you have the slots of the appropriate level.
I beg to differ on the extra attack. Sorcerer doesn't need the extra attack. You can turn an action into a bonus action spell with metamagic. So you can use booming blade twice in one turn, effectively giving you two spells and two attacks. Blade singer can only do two attacks and one spell with their extra attack if they attack and then use booming blade. That gives the advantage to the sorcerer. Granted this requires the use of sorcery points, but they have a higher upper limit. Even more so if you include the charisma bonus from a single level dip into hexblade.
I'd love to see this video but with Bards. I always saw them as a close second to Wizards so I am curious if they are now better of worse then the sorcerer. Or how much worse then the Wizard they really are.
If a was going to argue for sorcerer over wizard I wouldn't pick Metamagic as my main argument, but rather being able to multiclass with Warlock. Your pact of the Tome Sorloc now gets spell slots the refresh on a short rest which can be cheesy, they get Eldritch Blast and Armor of Agathys, three cantrips from any list they want, plus a powerful patron. The synergy here really seems to put this one option above any other multi-class choice either class might have available to them.
I think you need to start with your concept, then decide whether Wizard or Sorcerer is better for your build. Now, because the Wizard has many good subclasses and the Sorcerer only has a few, I would imagine that more often than not, you’ll end up choosing Wizard. But because of Tasha’s and multiclassing, there are at least a few concepts that the Sorcerer can fill better than the Wizard. The “do it all god mage” is a good example of this.
Sorcerers have charisma, which someone already made the joke about hitting Diplomacy checks, but that charisma also makes them better for multi-classing. Bard, Paladin maybe even Warlock could all benefit from Sorcerer. Wizards are not easily effectively MC'ed. Pure class, Wizard of course.
@@sharkforce8147 but the sorcerer makes those good. Sorcadin and Sorlock are both better than a strait Paladin or Warlock and a strait Sorcerer, probably. Sorcadin is insanely good on defense and gets some brutal smites (though it's probably bested by the Palock in that department, so eh), and Sorlock gets to cheese its own mechanics AND use the best cantrip in the game to deal quite a bit more damage than any other caster is capable of. Sorlock can also get ritual casting (it's the best option IMO) and still have 9th level spells, though it gives up some things to do so. It makes them incredibly versatile (able to cast rituals even wizards can't) and let's them do stupid hypothetical things with sorcery points and spell slots that, given enough downtime, mean you can walk into the next step of your journey like an absolute maniac with 30 8th level spell slots. It's dumb as all hell and most GM's would have problems with it, but it is technically possible. A 20th level sorcerer can also do it, but a Sorlock can do it earlier and also have Eldritch blast.
@@InnsannaStories -font of magic can only make up to 5th level slots. -And most dm's probably won't put up with coffeelock cheese. -Book of Ancient Secrets requires a big investment in warlock levels to really get spells a wizard might want [level = to 1/2 warlock level rounded up] -and you lose the possibility of ever getting 9th level spells if you take more than 3 levels in either class.
@@elliotbryant3459 fair, it's been a while. Still, 5th level slots ain't bad. I wonder how a more even split would do. Still, Sorlocks seem good from what my players have done.
On a more serious note, when I just got 5th Edition and saw that Wizards could now separated their spells prepared from spells per day, I was like “Well, it’s GG, Wizards win” (I hold a personal grudge against full casters since the days of 3rd Edition, it’s only personal, don’t judge me)
If sorcs take a feat to get something - "you pay a price" - but when wizards are said to have a lot of meta features, but it's one school only here and there, I don't see a similar proviso. Hmm. Honestly, it's so hard to compare classes and say one is "best", especially when campaigns vary so much in style. If I'm playing one with limited rests and many fights a day, I don't want to be stuck firebolting or tolling dead - I want to be a sorlock - at lvl 5, a firebolt is 11 average damage if it hits - toll is 13. A sorlock w/ agonizing blast and keepig a hex going (it lasts a while and can be used over multiple fights), is averaging 11 + 7 + 8 or 26 damage a round when cantripping. Twice that if he quickens, but that will be rare. Given 5e action economy, even tho class features come later for sorc, w/ meta magic, sorc is very strong early on and mid game, when most of us are playing. Where wizards pull away is lvl 14 or so - forcecage - sorc doesn't get it. But until then, the versatility offered to sorc by meta is so powerful - I find many players don't understand how to do this. Feats - yeah yeah - but take the feat where you get 2 more meta magics, wow. The flexibility of this sorc, early game, is amazing. TM, sorcadin - especially in AL - is so imba I consider it broken. Yes, the sorc part is weaker, but allowing the sorcadin to have multiple nova rounds smiting is awesome.
War mage? common man who plays that shitty subclass...the reaction is limiting and will make you feel bad when using it and the other features are not to be excited about. I would bury that subclass if I ever had a conversation about wizards.
Comment. (I don't have anything of particular worth to add to the conversations here, but I *do* know that a comment helps fight what is currently a ridiculously poisonous RUclips algorithm, and I rather like this content.)
Wizard vs. Sorcerer? Cleric, hands down. Druid close second. Wait, I have to pick between the two? Well wizard wins if we want a pure spellcaster. But wizard can't compare to Quickened spell hold person on a paladin who will hit you twice at advantage with guaranteed smite crits or Quickened spell agonizing blast eldritch blasts with hex + hexblade's curse. Also sorcerer wins thematically. Like come on, subtle spell mass suggestion, careful spell hypnotic pattern, twinned spell divine soul sorcerer buffs? The amount of characters I can create just from combining a metamagic with a spell is fantastic. Plus, cha > int. Honestly though, I WISH sorcerers (outfit of clockwork and aberrant mind) could have more spells to choose from. Having to use most of your spells known on the basics of shield, absorb elements, mirror image / blur, misty step, etc on every character leaves so little space for spells that can actually be altered with metamagic. Just let me roll on my wild magic table with my subtle spelled crown of madness, thank you.
I really think that the wizards' spellbook should've also been a factor here. The new Sorc subs sure have more spells known, but I think wizard can be more prepared and versatile.
I think you're a little generous to Wizards here. You correctly noted that you couldn't get all the advantages for attacks without missing out on other stuff, and so discounted that as a point for wizards, but you didn't do the same for the defences. And I think that's very important, given the most defensive wizards, abjurers, war mages, and bladesingers, have less effective additional subclass features. (Not that any of them are bad, just, in your list of extra good stuff wizard subclasses get, none of their stuff was mentioned). Meanwhile, the best wizard subclass features in divination and illusion don't come with the defensive boost. I'd also say you were a little generous to wizards on spell selection. With Clockwork soul I really don't think there's more than 1 or 2 spells you really want that you can't get. Plus, as sorcerers can replace old spells on a level up, and wizards can't, wizards have to make a difficult choice at a lot of levels of whether they take good spells now or good spells later. And that is a disadvantage. A really cool video though!
What's this "replacing old spells" you speak of? Whenever one of my spellbooks runs out of room, I just start a new one and hire another caddy with all the gold I can't find a way to spend!
I get what you're saying but wizards not being able to replace spells isn't a factor. They get 2 leveled spells every level after getting 6 at 1st and as many more as they can buy/the DM gives them. A sorcerer can replace the one spell they want for another one they want, whoop-de-doo! Maybe some of the comparisons weren't fully accurate in the video but this isn't Clockwork vs Wizard, this is Sorcerer vs Wizard.
@@AVJHalonen Well this is the subclass video, so it seems worth talking about the subclasses. Also, wizards getting more spells from DM's is incredibly DM dependent. I have never got more spells from a DM in any of my campaigns. And the problem is wizards can get stuck with spells like sleep that just suck as you go up in levels.
@@tomgymer7719 you've never fought a wizard and looted his spellbook afterward? You've never gone shopping for spell scrolls with all the treasure you can't spend any other way? That's not a defect with the class, that's user error.
@@malusvir No and no, I've never been in a campaign where I have more treasure than I can spend. I've also never fought a wizard who's stupid enough to have an easily findable spellbook.
There's a problem with this entire analysis, because the correct answer is, "It depends what you are going for." If you want to be a blaster, the sorcerer is generally better, thanks to metamagic. If you want to have more utility, then the wizard is better. Some subclass choices can improve the wizard's blastiness or the sorcerer's utility, but not enough to make up the difference.
Honestly, Evocation Wizards are debatably better at blasting than most Sorcerers in a lot of situations since Sculpt Spells is way better than Careful Spell.
@@romanwagner8709 Sculpt Spells gives them the advantage in one specific situation - where your allies are mixed in with enemies and you want to cast an AOE evocation spell. Metamagic gives sorcerers the advantage in more situations, and also gives blasting sorcerers higher DPR potential (unless you subscribe to the Magic Missile cheese).
I am 100% with you up until the defensive options. Clockwork Soul gets plenty of options to maintain his durability and while Wizards do get all those options they are spread around many subclasses. A war wizard, while getting the very significant advantages of initiative and saving throw bonuses, do not get Portent or the Arcane Ward. Another thing to mention is the Aberrant Mind 6th level Psionic Sorcery feature, which to my view is really one of the strongest features among all of the subclasses of both classes combined. Reducing the ratio of Sorcery Points to Spell Slot conversion cost to 1:1 is massive, as at that level it is giving you potentially 6 extra casts per day (or 8 if you take the Metamagic Adept feat, which is not free, i know, but in my opinion definetly worth it over any other option). Not only that, Psionic Sorcery adds the benefit of not being able to counterspell those spells that require material component that Subtle Spell cannot protect. As someone who has suggested hags, held person on archmages and telekinesis the arcane focus out of liches, all those counterspell free, i'd say this feature is very hard to overlook. Considering the Clockwork Soul gets access to a better spell list, I would say that both subclasses do, at least, tie because of this feature alone. All of that being said, I do agree with you in the overall result that Wizards are stronger than Sorcerers if you combine all the subclasses and look at them in a package. But the Aberrant Mind and the Clockwork Soul are so far ahead from the other sorcerer subclasses, I'd say that the average power level of those two specifically are above the average power level of any wizard. This was an imense challenge you took and overall I really like your review. Take this constructively please as I consider your channel by a fair marging the best D&D optimization channel in this plataform.
Does the Wizard Prepared Spells list take into account Ritual Spellcasting? A Wizard lvl 1 can prepare 4 spells, but knows 6. If the other two spells can be cast as rituals, then effectively the Wizard has 6 spells prepared but with the caveat of two of them only being cast as rituals. And considering that in a long campaign the wizard will obtain most ritual spells, especially the lower level ones, the actual number of spells Wizards will have "prepared" if you count Rituals, is probably going to be on par with Abberant Mind/Clockwork Soul, with 1 drawback and 1 advantage: the drawback being some of these spells are ONLY available as rituals, and the advantage that they be cast at no cost other than time investment (which may be a steep price on some adventuring days, and irrelevant on others). So how big is the advantage of a lvl 9 Sorcerer who knows 20 and has 14 spell slots, vs a Wizard who can prepare 13 spells, but knows a minimum of 22 (6 at lvl 1 + 2 per level-up), and also has 14 spell slots plus potentially multiple opportunities for Ritual spellcasting? Any semi-optimized Wizard at level 9 will have potentially 6+ Ritual spells in their spellbook to take advantage of their class. And since out-of-combat spells come up all the time, and are a part of what makes spellcasters powerful to begin with, can you really say the Wizard has 13 prepared spells at level 9 when they can potentially cast at least 18-19 at that level, perhaps even more if they have been taking/finding a lot of ritual spells?
Personally, the way I would rank it: the wizard class overall is better than the sorcerer class overall, but I'd take the best built sorcerer over the best built wizard any day. I think sorcerers are simply more fun to play and feel more rewarding to optimize than wizards.
Something to note; Clockwork soul and Abberant mind may add spells known, but they are SET spells known, from the bloodline. And not all of them are good. I don't think this is exactly an advantage for sorcerer so much as "ok so things are kinda even now, except you lose out on one class feature so have fun with that." Ya know, unless you're spending every level exchanging the set spells for specific school spells instead of trading out other spells that you might not be using anymore. Further, it's a bandaid. You can't play a draconic sorcerer but steal the clockwork/abberant options. So you can't build a blaster. You're just trying to play a wizard except you're still worse at it because you aren't flexible. Also imagine taking mage armor on a sorcerer, thinking you have the spare spells known to afford that. Let alone shield, absorb elements, and any utility/control spells. Before even considering blasting options.
I'm only about 2/3 through but something I'm noticing, especially with the Defensive option comparison, is that any and all Wizard subclasses are being pitted against just two Sorcerer subclasses (mainly Clockwork) which doesnt seem balanced; you can't simultaneously get save bonuses from War Wizard, AC from Bladesinger, and HP from Abjurer. Seems like the goal post is constantly moving to the benefit of Wizard which leaves me more uncertain of the comparison.
Talking about weapon attacks while it does cost lots of resources, it is possible to use booming blade as a quickened spell allowing 2 casts per turn as an early level extra attack
I think people overestimate wizard spellcasting list. Yes, they do have an expansive list, but they have three major limitations. First, everyone works under the assumption that all wizards can play gotta catch em all game with spells. While this may be true for some games, the more likely scenario is that you will have access to only a fraction of the complete spell list by the end of a campaign because of either lack of scrolls/spellbooks to copy from, or just purely gold reasons. Keep in mind that most out of the box modules end at around level 12 with exception of Princes and Abyss, so wizards won't have full access to all spells. Second, both wizards and sorcs have limited spell slots per day, which acts as its own funnel for reigning in flexibility, and many powerful spells tend to be higher levels, so you might not get the most mileage out of "vast" spell list Finally, and this is for both wiz and sorc, there are handful of spells that stand above everything else if we are looking things from pure min-max point of view, and most of the times, players just end up either learning these, or preparing them because they are staples. Take Melf's Acid Arrow vs. spiritual weapon. The first spell does some damage, and if target fails, more damage only a round after whereas spiritual weapon stays for a minute. Compared Melf to suggestion. It's some puny damage vs. potential encounter ending spell with some creativity I think when people look at these two classes, they value having expanded spell list that most of the times won't matter all that much
It is also important to note that in the class description under spellcasting, it calls out the spell book as being required if a wizard wants to change their prepared spells, but it says prior to this that spell slots are recovered on a long rest without mentioning the book. Therefore, worst case, if a wizard loses the spell book they are stuck with the preparations they have currently. Presumably, if the wizard ever changes preparations, he must have a spell book with all of the spells he wishes to prepare by that time, and any he has prepared previously are “forgotten” if they aren’t written in the new book. But…in any event…losing your spell book isn’t a huge deal at lower level and at higher level you should have already invested in multiple copies if that kind of thing happens in your campaigns.
Tides of Chaos can be really powerful, depending on how the DM resolves whether the wild surge goes or not. If the DM simply allows the wild mage to roll on the wild surge table with the first applicable spell after every use, then the wild mage can spam Tides of Chaos (up to twice per round, using both a reaction and a regular turn to cast spells) - that's really potent, and certainly makes granting advantage on initiative far more worthwhile. Tides of Chaos is also one of the few abilities that can be used on Death saves (on occasions when that actually is relevant). Though even with a DM that allows a wild mage to play this way, the wild mage still has to compete with Clockwork Soul and Aberrant Mind, so I don't think this would change the analysis in a significant way.
Tashas 5th level optional feature for sorcerer has been really strong in my campaign. Sorcerers are just better at counter spell and dispel magic. This was not brought up in this analysis. Getting to re roll a counter spell or dispel magic is huge for one sorcery point. Aberrant mind sorcerer feature psionic casting is so powerful. You can cast these spells so cheaply and so often at high levels. I often find that the aberrant mind sorcerer can cast more often per day than the wizard. At mid to high levels they can trade spell slots to spell points so efficiently. Plus you can add another metamagic on top of that. Combine this with Bloodwell Vial and or God forbid a Shadowfell Shard and your character is monster. These new Sorcerer sub classes and optional features are a ton of fun. loved the Video and the analysis. It was well thought out and presented. One thing about the Aberrant mind Sorcerer that is not clear is can you up cast Psionic spells with spell points. They way i read feature description i think you can.
Abjurers get to add proficiency bonus to Counterspell and Dispel Magic stating at level 10, and was a notable subclass already because of Arcane Ward. In the previous video in this two-parter he talks about trading sorcery points for spell slots and vice versa. Spell points is a variant system for spell slot management, though, so if you're considering it as your base you'll have a different impression than a lot of people. That being said, I'm pretty convinced this is too close to call, unless you start looking at UA (Which Big T never does) and see Lore Mastery. If you have a DM that tailors magic items for a Sorcerer, it's a huge huge boost. Items don't really exist in the same class-boosting fashion for Wizards. If your DM is trying to give out equitable power though, you might see a Wizard pick up a powerful staff instead.
So the evoker requires sight and is only evocation spells. Not that I take careful spell on my sorc anyways, but also not that wizards always go evoker either.
the evokers features don't require a class resource, you're effectively burning up spell slots as a sorcerer to use your class features, this is why every sorcerer subclass is bad. Good subclasses enhance your class' features, they don't cannibalize them.
You've said it best. Sorcerer comes REALLY close thanks to the new Tasha's subs. The sorcerer subs can't be given much more power than they already have or they would be too strong for a sub class, but they add enough to bridge the gap to wizards. It's just some wizard subclasses get that little extra touch on top that makes them better. Especially portent. Personally not a fan of divination wizard though. Portent is insane, but the class itself doesn't really add a lot of fun things to the class other than a numerical advantage.
I think it has to depend a little bit by level range. Clockwork Soul I think there's a pretty good argument is ahead of all wizard subclasses levels 1-9, which is the levels where I do most of my playing. Even their spell selection keeps up reasonably well in this level range, with access to wall of force, aid, armor of agathys etc. But then Wizards get their 10th level class feature, sorcerers don't, and then we get into 6th, 7th, and 8th level spell selections, which are still incredibly mediocre for Sorcerer (especially 7th and 8th level spells). Just...all in all, so many of wizard's advantages here don't come until 10th+ level. Better spell selection? Yes, but not really felt below 11th level. More class features at several levels of play? Yes, but only after 10th level (tied below that).
For consistent arcane ward, you don’t need to burn a feat (which is not free) to get warlock’s armor of shadow. Just ritual cast alarm, an abjuration spell.
That takes a long time - with Mage Armor at will, at level 10, it takes you less than 1,5 minute to regain all 25 hp of your ward. You can basically do it after every battle. No short rest required. With Alarm, it would take you around 2,5 hours. EDIT: I’ve been running a Tasha’s Custom Lineage "human" abjurer with darkvision and Eldritch Adept, and the amount of damage that gets nullified by Arcane Ward each adventuring day is insane. Eldritch Adept with Abjurer basically says "Get the benefits of a slightly stronger Tough feat, except you don’t need to make concentration checks, you can regain about a third of your life for free basically forever, and you can share some of your hp with your friends".
Would be interesting, because I think this would favor the sorcerer in a lot of ways. Much of the wizards power comes from out of combat versatility plus buff preparation and ways to approach wildly different adventuring challenges, while a sorcerer with the right metamagic and spell combos can unleash serious nova damage or target crippling saves. Subtle spell against an opponent who’s looking to counter spell is powerful too.
Remember to look at all play tiers. I think an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer with access to Mind Sliver, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, and Metamagic could be terrifying to a Wizard at low levels. How many games have you played that went all the way to Level 20?
I guess it comes down to what you mean by 'better'. Sorcerers deal more damage on average over the course of a combat thanks to metamagic, they're also the strongest healers in the gmae, they also have some of the strongest support turns in the game. Taking haste as a sorcerer almost 'locks in' your role as twinning haste for most of the game if you're just going by what moves are best. Wizards are the kings of versatility, but Sorcerers are a much better blunt instrument than wizards are. They can cast 'more' spells per turn, and on top of that, there's a reason 2 of the best multiclasses for minmaxers take sorcerer levels. (Sorlocks and Sorcadins). I've always seen wizards as a jack of all trades class. But sorcerers are there if they wanna blow something up. An evocation wizard can deal extra damage on spells, but sorcerers can routinely cast 2 spells.
If WotC put out an errata adding origin spells to previous Sorcerer subclasses, this might have had a different outcome. But god knows they love to keep their pet class on top, not giving Sorcerers any exclusive spells of their own... Hell, makes me think that the only way someone at WotC managed to give these boosts to sorcerers via the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul subclasses was by arguing that "it won't actually threaten the wizard's monopoly, let them have more spell and one summoning option."
I think the issue is that they don't want to overtly invalidate previously printed books. Which is also why I think they are very reluctant to add many more base classes.
In previous editions, the advice was to steer new players away from Wizards and, if they wanted to play a caster, point them towards Sorcerers who were an easier class to play. In 5e, I’d recommend Wizards to less experienced players. Sure, post Tasha’s, if you pick the right Sorcerer subclass and you swap out the right spells and you match that with the correct metamagics, you can have a Sorcerer who is now competitive with any of the Wizard subclasses who are just as good straight out of the box without all of that complicated optimizing. Sorcerers have lost their biggest selling point of being the easy Arcane caster to play.
Wizards the masters of planning verses Sorcerers the masters of improvision. Since the classes are so close to each other ranking wise, best is a matter of preference. Players that prefer to improvise might have more fun with the Sorcerer class while players that prefer a class that offers more things to do during prep time might prefer the Wizard class.
i think it really depends on how much combat is involved in a session. Those 5-8 encounters a day i tend to hear about are for a a complete fable. I have never heared of any DM running these kind of endless combat slugfest other then like maybe 1 a campain when it fits. And once you go to like 2-3 fights a day sorcerers are much better. Also on the topic of possible spells: Most of this difference is made up of spells nobody would run anyways, it a much better way to look at what spells Sorcerers really want but cant get and the other way around.
Clockwork or Aberrant sorcerer with ritual caster wizard as first feat … Or divine soul if your table has added an expanded list to even out base subclasses with Tasha’s I personally love 3 levels lore bard with sorcerer. That a lot of decent cantrips, 1st, and 2nd level spells. The frees up most my sorcerer spells for higher level
For me the role play of being a charisma based character is what does it for me. I know that’s a totally subjective personal thing Mechanically subtle spell is pure awesomeness The three bard levels besides giving so many good spells and features pumps your counterspell and dispel magic ability.
The video's question itself is misleading. Is Wizard or Sorcerer the most powerful class? If all the power of Sorcerer lies within 1-3 subclasses with Clockwork Soul being tops, then can we actually say that it's the "class" that is powerful? No, it's the subclass. Wizard > Sorcerer. Period. Wizard + certain strong subclasses edges out Sorcerer + clockwork soul (the strongest sorcerer subclass).
I think he talks about this in his other video where he compares the base classes against each other not considering subclasses. If you want his review on that one it is already up
Some classes have more power in the core features and others have more in the subclass. If you're comparing classes you really need to take the whole package into account since no one is playing without a subclass.
you act like aberrant mind and clockwork Sorcerer is all Sorcerer has and your not really wrong, you mentioned so many wizard subclasses and only 3 Sorcerer ones. Wizard should get points for that. tdlr can aberrant mind and clockwork beat the power of wizards.
Depends what you mean by Power? In certain niches I would say yes. Like Abberant mind can simply cast his psionic spells so cheaply and use other spell slots to fuel them. Therefor i would say Aberrant mind sorcerer can cast more spells than wizard. Plus they can add a meta magic on top of the No V. S. M. But that Wizard spell list is better and wizard has the potential to cast a better spell.
"can aberrant mind and clockwork beat the power of wizards." like the other reply said, in certain aspects of play, yes. Metamagic is VERY powerful in practice, especially once you enter mid-high levels. Subtle spell makes it so that you can't be counterspelled in a wizard duel. Twin spell makes even low level single target cc abilities very formidable (i.e. tasha's hideous laughter, dissonant whispers, hold person, etc.) In combat especially, sorcerer's are capable of extremely explosive turns compared to the wizard by virtue of their metamagic. However, prior to the release of clockwork soul and aberrant mind, I'd argue that the class as a whole was severely lacking in out of combat flexibility (due to fewer spells known). The class still suffers from not being able to ritual cast as well. TL;DR: it's complicated, but yes.
I looked up the Chronurgy subclass, it's apparently Matthew Mercer's brainchild and... da fuq? Isn't he supposed to be an awesome DM? It's like playing a 3.5E Wizard in 5E.
The overall power and usefulness of the Sorcerer as the party member will depend greatly on how important the social pillar of DnD is in your campaign. If the DM tends to minimize/ignore it in favor of combat and exploration, Sorcerer's Charisma skills are a nonfactor, while Wizards with their more prepared spells and ritual casting can actually contribute to exploration, something that Sorcerers aren't meant to do. I agree about Clockwork Soul and Aberrant Mind now being objectively the best Sorcerer subclasses. Divine Soul is still there, the Cleric's list of spells is so potent, but you have to make sacrifices when learning spells - you can't have everything that you want, you have to pick and choose what to specialize in. For example, I often ditch Dispel Magic in favor of Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians or now Spirit Shroud. Also, you gotta get Aid and Heal and that leaves little room to take things like Mirror Image, Misty Step, Shatter, Disintegrate, Chain Lightning. You can't have all of those, you have to choose.
32:04 "So where does that leave us?" With me hoping you'll do an update of your War Mage build so I can see whether you'd go Artificer now or stick with your Gith Battlemaster. =)
I played a hobgoblin artificer warmage for AMAZING save boosts (hobgoblin get an addition up to +5) and martial proficiency. His main attack at low levels was launching alchemists fire and acid using catapult. One of my favourite characters. Works even better with Tashas stat versatility
Hmm seems a bit off at the end. Certain wizard subclasses out do clockwork sorcerer in some aspects but as you said you can't play multiple subclasses. Seemed like at the end when considering the variety of subclasses that could beat certain aspects of the sorcerer you would have had to remove points from the wizard to add them back with a different subclass but you didn't.
you forgot to mention wizards also have the advantage of not needing to prepare their ritual spells.....That's a lot of extra preparation equivalents right here
I strongly agree. In my gameplay with wizards in particular, I've found Wizard ritual casting to be an incredibly important part of the class, especially at low levels.
I feel like metamagic is over-weighted in this comparison, and that the wizard's spell list is under-weighted. On the metamagic side, through most of the game play, the Sorcerer is only going to get to do this a couple times per day. Yes, he can sack slots to increase sorcerer points. But that cost cuts directly into the primary feature of the class. Yes, metamagic is powerful. But it's not available. I think that it compares very evenly to Ki, and the troubles with Ki management. You NEED to spend it to deliver the promise of the class, and it goes away so fast that you end up playing most of the game without the resource that kind of defines the class. On the wizard's spell list side, spells are THE reason to play either class. Every single time the wizard gets to pick something he really wants, and the sorcerer picks something lesser, it is a big win for the wizard. When ritual casting is factored in, the wizard's list is an even bigger advantage, because a few of those preparation slots that discussed so much are are freed up by the wizard's ritual casting mechanic. These are not insignificant spells, even at higher levels of play. The features discussed in this video make it sound like they're of comparable value in the end assessment, and they're NOT. Spells are the whole of each class. Every other feature combined is less significant than the spellcasting feature alone. Being able to choose the most valued spells at each level, especially when those spells hold their value at later levels, is NOT a small win. Being able to write down far more spells than you can prepare, and then swap them out on a rest, so that your prepared list is tailored to what you're doing, is HUGE. I mean, that's one of the big advantages that the WIS casters have, and (I imagine) one of the reasons that we'll never see their spell lists expand to rival the wizard's. In the end, I feel like the comparison is kind of like comparing troops and logistics between 2 rival armies. But one army has AWACS and satellites, and the other does not. The strategic advantage of the overhead view makes every other asset more significant. The wizard's spell list is that strategic advantage, and sorcerer points don't come close to evening that power balance.
Have you seen an Abberant mind sorcerer play yet? Casting psionic spells is crazy good. What other caster in the game can cast 10 synaptic statics a day at level 10? Comes with free subtle spell and you can add metamagic on top. Abberant mind is the most efficient and powerful caster i have ever played.
@@rothgartheviking858 that assessment is big on subjectives, and short on hard facts. The 2 classes start with the same slot progression, and the wizard's Arcane Recovery means that he'll consistently cast more than the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer can come close if he uses ALL of his Sorcerer points for slots, but then he's given up all uses of metamagic. I totally agree that the Aberrant Mind is a big step forward for Sorcs. I still don't think they close the gap. To be clear, the best 2 Sorcerer subclasses are competing with the wizard baseline...
@@ChristnThms Wizards are fantastic. I have played most of them. Have not played blade singer or Enchantment. Abberant mind sorrcerer is just more powerful at mid levels. I really don't even think there is a valid comparison. At level 9 a wizard has 1 level 5 spell slot the aberrant mind has effectively 13. This is how you play this class. Arcane recovery can't even come close to this. This difference becomes evident especially when you have a wizard in your party he is slinging firebolts and your slinging synaptic static as if it was a cantrip. Now in late game i think wizards are better. However i have never played a game above level 13. Probably never will.
@@rothgartheviking858 I don't know where you're getting 13 level 5 slots. You get 1 from slot progression; if you sack ALL of your slots on sorc points, you can have 8. That is definitely an interesting trick, but it also means you're pretty useless beyond those 8 castings. That definitely doesn't make you a better caster. ...and seriously, you're measuring power by casting Synaptic Static? I mean, it's not a bad spell. But there are no blasts that are game changers at those levels. Polymorph or Slow is more likely to change an encounter.
What's better a Porsche 911 or a Fendt 1050 tractor? Sure we can compare horsepower, max speed or torque but all of this misses the point. Do you want to race the Nurburg Ring or plow a field?... Same goes for the Sorcerer and Wizard. For example there is no way to replace a 6/14 Sorcadin with a Wizard (Multiclass) and the Sorlock is a pure caster but has completely different strengths compared to a Wizard (MC).
Defensive options, you give the point to Abjuration Weapon use, you give points to Bladesinger but rightfully note that the point from Abjuration "cancel out" this point. Initiative, you give a point to Warmage for (initiative + saving throws) without noting that doing so ignores 1) the point from Abjuration and 2) the Clockwork Sorc's hp advantage Subclass options, you name half a dozen wizard classes that you've either not mentioned at ALL yet or have only sparingly referenced... And again, as you noted in the Weapon Use section, you can't give points for multiple subclasses of the same class without erasing some. Honestly, if you do the math using this "point for point" system for each individual wizard subclass versus Clockwork, it sounds an awful lot like Clockwork comes out on top (other than Chronurgy). I'd love to see a more balanced look at this, because it really feels like you were searching for reasons to give the wizard the win. Maybe do a Divination vs Clockwork breakdown? I feel like Divination is probably the best all-round wizard subclass, though Bladesinger and Abjuration are both contenders.
I also personally feel like the Abjuration + Eldritch Adept combination is in the same category as Chronurgy in that it fundamentally breaks the game (though not to the same degree), but it is RAW, so oh well.
So before it was like almost any wizard could beat out a single class Sorcerer, but now only the specialized Wizards compete with Tashas Sorcery options 🤔
Real life philosofies teaches us... sorcerer is king, but I like wizards way more. The fact is that to spend several hours studying makes a person extremely successful in that field, but takes away much needed knowledge from other sides of life. Think of the personal sacrifices someone needs to become a wizard and compare it to a born sorcerer. Sorcerer may not be that wise or inteligent, but as in life: thats way you build a team. Its like that old Ford saying... ask me any question, I have someone who can answer it (or something lik that).
I think you overlooked a key feature of wizards in general and the Order of Scribes subclass, and that is the wizards ability to expand the spells in their spell books and write scrolls. That means that potentially that 100+ advantage in spells on the list could wind up in the spell book. The Master Scrivener feature also makes writing spell scrolls an advantageous way to spend downtime. Casting spells through the Manifest Mind at 6th level could add up to 300 feet to your range on attacks, enable you to cast spells around corners, or even send it in through a window and Fireball a room without even entering the building! Sorcerers got nothing that comes close to that!
Straight class wizard is stronger I think but if you are multiclassing I think there are a lot of awesome and very powerful multi class options you can do with a backbone of sorcerer
your massively overvaluing spells known. the sorcerers spells he does know can be used way more impactfully, and your practically ignoring amazing subclasses because "spells known" EX: the draconic sorcerer gets mage armor for free as a class feature at level 1. he never has to ever pay the mage armor tax, because of this. then at level 14 he gets flight, replicating the effect of a 3rd level spell for free. then he can concentrate on sunbeam, and then quicken out a spell like synaptic static. adding it all up: 6d8+8d6 AOE damage with blinding, and debuff rider effects to boot. and if synaptic static goes off, you can then switch to quickening another blasting spell, and basically benefit from the effects of 5 fucking spells at once because synaptic static doesn't go away for a minute so spamming it more than once is redundant. all the while your flying, and also more durable than any other wizard in the game. also your pretty much ignoring the fact that sorcerers are more effecient at dealing damage in combat in general vs a wizard. the closest a wizard can match is evoker, which won't keep up
8:32 Two things: 1) you only gain the saving throw proficiencies of your first class, so you'd have to start your career as an artificer for that to work 2) with one level in artificer and one less level in wizard, you would have as many spell slots due to a quirk with artificer multiclassing not present in other half-casters. Still the highest level spell you can prepare as a wizard is stunted, so it is only really useful for upcasting
If you think of every wizard as having 1 level of artificer or cleric, you really ought to imagine every sorcerer having 2 levels of Hexblade with EB/Agonizing novas on tap. Given that so much of the game is combat, having the best attack cantrip and more bonus action options (not to mention a couple short rest slots) makes a sorlock pretty reliable, if clearly always less versatile. But, if you also take Fey Touched at L1 for misty step/alacrity (or hex, or bless) to get 18CHA to start with…adding on Mask of Many Faces makes you a huge RP/social contributor… if not the party face. In general, wizards suck at persuasion. That is why you need guidance. So, how the balance between art-wizard and sorlock looks is based on how much social/RP is essential to the mission and how much game time it takes. For a decent number of games, being the wizard with 8CHA sucks.
I see what you did here Mr Treantmonk. You are not really comparing them for a winner but contrasting them so that a player has a better idea of the relative strengths and weaknesses of both after the Tasha really rebalanced things a bit. You are not going to say “it is always the Wizard. “
TM: “The Chronurger wins”
Me: dang it.
I'm baited by the title. Sorcerer's make better kings because they can succeed at diplomacy checks.
Wizards make better kings because they have knowledge to make better decisions
Bards make better kings because they can help keep the country populated.
Monks make better kings because... nevermind
Warlocks are the best kings because they are the best at using human resources XD
Fireball makes a good argument for peace though ;)
For anyone interested, the Divine Soul Sorcerer has the following spell options
Cantrips: 36 ( +7)
1st: 41 (+ 13)
2nd: 49 (+9)
3rd: 45 (+13)
4th: 22 (+5)
5th: 33 (+13)
6th: 26 (+6)
7th: 18 (+5)
8th: 9 (+2)
9th: 11 (+3)
For a total of 290 spells (or 59 spells less than wizard)
Wow, you madperson, you did it
Spell Quality > Spell Quantity IMO. Not to mention when speaking about optimized builds between the two you are going to see virtually the same spells on each. That and I think Divine Soul is better than Wizard once you get to higher levels of play. The only thing I dislike about 5th Ed was they allowed Wizard's to "borrow" some Sorcerer features to make the game new player friendly.
@Remy B that, and in 3e Wizards straight up just got bonus metamagic feats every 5 levels. Metamagic was always more of a Wizard thing and it struck extremely odd when learning 5e that it became a Sorcerer exclusive feature
and yet you can only pick the same number as any other sorcerer, so that selection just makes you sad at what you can't take.
@Remy B but the sorcerer's only advantage over wizard in 3E was spontaneous casting. Not needing to prep your spells ahead of time. Sorcerers got more spell slots, but they lagged a level behind on spell progression. So you didn't learn 2nd level spells until level 4, 3rd level spells at level 6. It was like multiclassing without any benefits. Meanwhile the wizard got magic item crafting feats for free. Like spontaneous casting in 3rd edition, WOTC overcounted the power of metamagic. While nice, it doesn't compare to the number of spells known and the superior spell list. Sorcery points are great but at 1/level per long rest, they are in short supply. And you only get a few metamagic options. Face it, the stack is still in the wizard's favor.
Wizard speaking to Cleric while pointing at Divine Soul Sorcerer: "Look what they need just to mimic a fraction of our power!"
Think cleric think!
Pointing at arcane cleric lol
(i like arcana cleric though, way more than most people seem to tbh, it just has some weak lvls)
@@Booklat1 I multiclassed 3 levels of Paladin into an Arcana Cleric so my channel divinity has other uses. I used to dislike the dispel + heal feature until they added Aura of Vitality as an additional spells for Clerics. I also took magic initiate feat to get the Druid's Shillelagh to do booming blade/green flame blade + potent spellcasting nonsense.
@@lordvectra7821 you did some things I would too, specially the cantrips
What I like arcana cleric for is a 1 lvl dip for monks. So now you get to run over walls and firebolt people from far away
( does booming blade work with stunning strike? I’ll have to check that on?)
me: Im gonna go divine soul sorcerer/eldritch knight fighter
my gm: ooh, a bit of healing eh?
me: =u=
my gm: *looking at party of dps* a bit of healing ...right?
me: *mechniacal laughing* (i saw a Legend of Korra build i wanna try it for myself XD)
As someone who mains sorcerer, I am so grateful for the Tasha's sorcerer sub classes, playing aberrant mind and clockwork soul has been a blast, if not simply because I get to know more spells.
Such good subclasses.
Finally gave us a bone, after Sorcerers just being an unmitigated trash class by comparison to wizards
I really would love for wizards to put in the work to create similar spell lists for every subclass
@@zaneearldufour my DM agreed to grant me extra spells known for my dragonborn sorcerer because I am going really heavy on the dragon theme; so he curated a list of 10 spells between Transmutation and Abjuration schools that he felt were fitting for a dragon themed sorcerer, including spells from Fizban's Treasury of Dragons.
The bump is really amazing to make my preferred theme not feel underpowered compared to other options.
17:52 Aberrant Mind Sorcerers get access to Dissonant Whispers.
Dissonant Whispers is a top-notch level 1 concentration-less control spell, which can do a lot of damage from opportunity attacks. It's even better when twinned. It's definitely something I'd love on my Wizard's list!
I think one of the discussion points that would be important could be magic items. The new magic items for sorcerers are by far stronger than the ones for wizards (disadvantage on all metamagic spells or a free misty step with each metamagices spells). If there is a significant chance to obtain these items (or you start at a higher level with magic items to begin with) I think sorcerer surpasses the wizard.
Great analysis, but you have omitted one key distinction: sorcerers are invariably sexier.
As a Sorcerer main, I agree
How about Aberrant ones with tentacles and slime all over?
Important note regarding multiclassing spellcasters with Artificier. When calculating your spell caster level to determine your spell slots you take half of your artificer levels rounded up, not down. This is the only half caster to do this. Due to this, a single level dip into Artificer will not impact spell progression for an otherwise pure full caster. Not that this impacts the final result at all. I still think it’s quite interesting.
Edit: should have said spell slot progression instead of spell progression as multiclassing will still impact which spells can be prepared (an artificer 1/wizard x will still have 3rd level slots at level 5, they will not be able to prepare spells higher than second level as they will only be a wizard 4 at this point)
It impacts spells known. But no not spell slot.
Just saying "Spell progression" is not true.
Well, an artificer can prepare 1/2 level + Int Mod spells. So (eventually, with a single level dip) 6 extra spells instead of the two a wizards normally would get, plus 4 extra options not on the wizard list (Cure Wounds, Faerie Fire, Purify Food and Drink and Sanctuary)
So, you'll get more overall but you'll still feel the difference whenever you get spell slots you can use just to upcast and then have to wait one more level to actually learn spells of that level
It will not impact spell slots progression, but it WILL impact spells progression and it is a bigger deal anyway
Only issue is that spells known/prepared/all that progression ignores any multiclassing, so you still get the spells for a given spell slot level above 1st a level later with a 1 level dip, even if your spell SLOT progression does not lag behind.
In other words: You get Fireball and such late if you multiclass. Accessible spell progression is no the same as spell slot progression.
@@benjoffe948 thanks for pointing this out, I’ve amended the original comment to clarify
"Which is king?"
Immediately shows a wizard with a crown
"Well that answers that"
I hope Treantmonk does a video of “Wizard vs X” for every class so we can refer people to those whenever they’re being ignorant and claiming anything other than “Wizard is King”
Then he throws everyone for a loop and declares monks as the winner
Only one I ever hear get suggested as a close competitor is cleric. There’s some truth to that, but I think the insanity of wizards at high level can be game breaking without really trying that hard
@@mojorn8837 It also doesn't help that cleric starts very strong but it's high level spells are meh
Give a Level 20 Genie Warlock 12 days and it'll have an army of itself
@@mojorn8837 Depends on the level you're playing on and the subclasses. A moondruid on super high levels is also quite ridiculous.
“There are a lot of really good wizard subclasses” but you can’t take them all at once. You can’t have the weapons of a blade singer, arcane ward of an abjuration, sculpt spells of an evoker, and the twin enchantments of an enchanted at the same time. You can take clockwork soul, a dip in Hexblade, and the appropriate metamagics to replicate all of those at once.
Sure, but is a better class found by having a single really good subclass that is all you play, or is it having a lot of different subclasses with really good options?
I find it really telling that only three sorcerer subclasses were even mentioned. Divine Soul which makes them a cleric with metamagic. And the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork soul which are the only sorcerer subclasses that get additional spells known. So, there are only two sorcerer subclasses that seem like they can even compete with... seven of the wizard subclasses?
Subclasses are a fundamental part of a class though and the existence of weaker options doesn’t negate strong options. Yes, the base class has a fundamental weakness due to limited spell choice but they released a patch in the form of AM and CS. Also, you can only pick one wizard subclass per character. So, listing off “pros” for wizards that cherry pick the best options from all of the subclasses isn’t a one-to-one comparison with saying “pick clockwork soul.” Subclasses aren’t free.
@@arbitrary_mike7833 I'm not saying they are free, but to even be considered for the conversation Sorcerer subclasses had to be limited. And in fact, only the clockwork soul beat the wizard's baseline spell list in comparison.
So, sure "play the clockwork soul" is easy enough to say, but it could also be said that to even compete with any wizard build you need to play a clockwork soul. That doesn't make it sound like sorcerers can compete, that makes it sound like a specific sorcerer build can compete with any given wizard build. And it is a sorcerer build that relies on massive changes to how the base class functions
I think we’re saying the same thing? Yes, subclassless wizard is better than subclassless sorc. Base sorcerer is not good so WotC put in a subclass (or two if you count AM) that fixes it’s major flaws and bring it closer to parity. So, base wizard beats base sorc, but when you add CS in to the mix then you can be close to parity AND have more options for cool tricks via metamagic. So, if you want to be a good sorc then pick a Tasha’s subclass and you’ll be close to on par with a wizard and where Sorcs should have been to start with.
@@arbitrary_mike7833 We are pretty close. I just thought it was weird that people were upset that he was comparing multiple wizard subclasses to the Clockwork, when to me it seemed more like the clockwork was the only one even close enough to make comparing them worthwhile.
It isn't a matter of "you can't be multiple subclasses" it is a matter of only a single (maybe two) subclass reaching parity.
"Where are the bards ? "
"Gods don't concern themselves with the affairs of puny mortals"
why be a king when you can be a god
I really like the shadow sorcerer too, although overall not better than clockwork and aberrant, you get to summon a direwolf that gives disadvantage on spell saving throws to your target, as a bonus action.
Those sorc subclasses can have more spells known for sure, but the fact that wizards can learn spells from spellbooks and scrolls make them really flexible in that area, and I think the difference is even narrower. One can argue that it is not certain that you will find spells to copy to your book during a campaign, but in my experience, even in low-magic settings and campaigns, scrolls and other wizards are still a thing =P
So that's just to add more praise to the Wizard overall
A few things, the reliance on war mage for initiative I think is slightly overblown especially because it negates your gish bladesinger, also Many of the wizard wins for subclasses were distributed, while the sorc ones were all condensed, the two new subclasses get ALL of the advantages, making either of them more powerful than any single wizard subclass. Then lastly the big one not accounted for is that a huge percentage of the game is social and cha dominates int in this category. With these in mind, in the narrow window that utilizes just these two sub classes, I think sorc takes the crown. This coming from someone who has mained many wizards in the past and loves wizards.
I personally disagree just on the factor of divination wizard being better than any of the sorc subclasses
Also, sorcerer subclasses outside of the 2 in tashas are worse than every wizard subclass outside of transmutation, your average wizard is significantly better than an average sorcerer, because sorc really relying on two subclasses too be good is a huge weakness
Agreed Cha is the most versatile SAD in the game. One dip into hexblade and a background with thieves tools you can play almost any role in the game
Tldr, I would say sorc is king hands down. You cant beat the usefulness of metamagic with wiz subclasses. I think the hand-waving of divine soul for spells options is a serious miss. While I do agree that the downside of the divine soul vs sorc is the number of spells known, the effectiveness of the cleric spell list in addition to sorc is far better. Rather than trying to prepare a lot of spells that won't be effective, the divine soul has options that are always effective. The divine soul has the party face, healing and buff options (and I'd argue they are also better blasters) that the wizard can't do. The wizard has a large spell selection, but they are only useful for crowd control and aoe damage. And the sorc can fill those roles too. The wiz can buff themselves, but can't do much for allies. Divine soul really provides better usefulness through bless, healing and restoration spells. If you give abjuration wiz a feat to help them recharge arcane ward, then any sorc can take wiz ritual casting, increased metamagic, or Eldritch invocations that can turn sorc into much better blaster than the wizard can be. Even without multiclassing, feats like spell sniper, magic initiate add to spells known but unlike feytouched or shadow touched, the casting modifier matters.
@@aydensauvageau9393 All the other subclasses can't compete obviously. But divination being better than the Tasha Sorcerers?
You serious?
Have you heard of our lord and saviour Chron?
Also, many of the Wizard subs get really powerful gimmicks on top of being Wizards. I still believe Wizards are on top.
I love your videos so much Mr Treantmonk. My two favorite builds for Wizard and Sorcerer take them and make them into something different: a CBE SS Bladesinger with a dip in Fighter for Con saves and fighting style that utilizes Blur and Greater Invis for defense and Offense; and a Devotion Paladin 6 Clockwork Sorcerer X that is more focused on buffing up its melee capabilities to avoid damage and to output heavy damage. I love both of these classes so much and look forward to your video on cleric! Twilight ftw!
I just can’t give up Metamagic. It’s too good for me.
Agree with most of it, BUT in the end you were combining every Wizard good feature on "one class" against CW and AB sorcerer. I mean, yeah Wizard have way more consistent and good features across there subclasses but picking one mean forfeiting others... While sorcerer it kind of have most of good aspects concentrated on Tasha's S.Classes.
I noticed the same thing. It really goes to show how much CW and AB pull ahead of the pack compared to other sorc subclasses.
Certainly a party full of wizards would be more powerful than a party full of sorcerers but I agree. You can't compare the best wizard subclass in each category against two sorcerer subclasses and hope to have it be very close. And yet it is.
We will see how this all shakes out when TM does the class ranking for sorcerer and wizards.
Aside from chronurgist, is there a wiazrd subclass that blows away the AB or CS?
He realizes this. I think the whole point of the video was just showing how good these new sorcerers are. For me Abberant mind Sorcerer is just crazy good. They just have more sustain than any other spell caster i have ever played. 14 castings of synaptic static a day at level 10. Who cares about spell slot recovery. i just feel that these sorcerer subclasses where not needed. They should have just added known spells to every existing Sorcerer subclass.
@@rothgartheviking85814 casts? I don't get it. How?
Maybe you misunderstood the lvl 6 feature, it's use SorcererPoint x Spell level. Not 1 SP per spell.
@@tiradentes4525 I don't get it either. If you convert all spell slots to sorcery points, you still only have 51 sorcery points so you can only cast synaptic stairs 10 times.
I can't decide if I agree or not. I have never played in a campaign in the last 8 years where I have hit over level 14 so the Aberrant and Clockwork spell advantage along with the meta magic flexibility really speaks to me.
Great video/analysis as always though!
Totally agree with this.
Perhaps I missed it, which wizard is better than clockwork soul sorcerer from levels 1-20? you mention several times that you can't pick multiple subclasses, but don't tie yourself down to one wizard subclass the way you did with sorcerer.
I think he ties himself to one subclass of sorcerer because it has the best chance of being comparatively better then a wizard subclass. Sorcerer all things considered is a better base class and all subclasses are more or so add-on’s. Wizard all things considered has much more emphasis on it’s subclasses and is meant to be built into a subclass more. The wizards subclasses are much more consistent but each one different, while the sorcerers subclass isn’t really much focus, it’s more or so the sorcerer class itself. Clockwork soul is an exception to this however and is quite powerful, therefore he uses it as the best comparison to the wizards unique yet consistent subclasses.
Because to even attempt to bridge the gap you need to be aberrant or clockwork, because the other sorcerer subclasses have very low spells known (and some are downright meh or terrible for most your playtime like draconic or storm). I think this shows overall that the wizard is more reliable or stronger in a lot of situations. And even clockwork soul isnt perfect, bastion of law is pretty expensive.
“To get armor agathys they need to take a feat” or play a mark of warding dwarf and become the arcane battle-rager, the merging of dwarven tradition and magical advancements! There’s magic in this beard!
That's my kind of wizard.
@@Spectrulus a fellow fan of fine dwarven culture I see
That's pretty much my abjurer and let me tell you, he does not go down easily
I just learned contingency and having an extra 25 HP on top of ward and ANOTHER armor of agathys is
GOOD
Most DM's don't allow Eberon Race unless playing an Eberon campaign. For me, this falls into the same category as the Chronurgist. If you can use them they are powerful but they don't really fit into the normal comparisons that Chris is making here.
@@mickthelick5788 the difference being Chronurgist is totally broken while these races are just good (some aren’t even good tbh)
Very comprehensive. I love it. But I'd like to add another point in the Wizard's favor: player friendliness. Because a Wizard learns far more spells than they can ever prepare simultaneously, and can add any number of additional spells to their spellbook when given the opportunity by the DM, they remain far more flexible than any Sorcerer, regardless of which sourcebooks are allowed. An inexperienced player can quite easily build and play a Wizard that is fun and effective, even with a fair few bad decisions, because they can experiment with different spells and choose to stop preparing the bad ones.
In fact, IMO, Wizards are the third *easiest* character for a novice player to make, after a Rogue or Barbarian. And a Sorcerer is perhaps the most complicated and challenging class to build effectively, or at least it's in contention with the Warlock and Artificer.
I agree with this. However acquiring additional spells is DM dependent. My DM rarely makes this an option or even thinks of this. If your DM is provides additional spells. This ability is amazing.
@@rothgartheviking858 For an inexperienced player, most DMs would be somewhat generous and might even curate the player's spellbook with some iconic and versatile options. Even if they don't, a spellbook will have more than twice as many spells as your level by default. That's a ton of options and room for forgiveness.
I would argue against this. I think cleric is a much easier class for new players. You get whole spell list to prepare from each day! You get up to 10 more spells prepared through divine spells than wiz and you don't have to worry about messing up chosing spells on level up. Just prepare new ones the next day. Wiz have to spell all party gold just to add a few spells. Clerics have better ac than wiz and can fill more party roles. Don't make new player a healbot, let them deal divine fury.
@@fasterpet Yes, Clerics are fairly simple compared to most classes. And they are among the best performing classes at low levels. Like most classes, they can fill a variety of different party roles, but they are not nearly as versatile as a Wizard in that respect. They also have quite a disparity between their best spells and worst spells. For example, a Cleric player that doesn't know better and never uses Bless, or Spiritual Weapon, or Spirit Guardians will have a very different impact on their party. They also have an additional limited resource to manage in their Channel Divinity. Finally, Clerics have to choose their subclass right away at level 1. Don't get me wrong, I think Clerics, Druids, and Fighters are solid choices for a new player to wrap their head around, but Rogues, Barbarians, and Wizards are even better.
You kinda forgot that. Wizards can get higher level spells outside of the leveling system. That’s HUGE.
How praytell
@@hangover89 I assume because you can copy a spell scroll into your book. That doesn't mean you can cast the spell though, unless you have higher level spell slots than from your wizard level from multiclassing into another full caster.
That's the only explanation I can come up with and it's pretty fringe advantage as it requires your DM to reward you for something that's already beneficial to you.
Matt Mercer artificially accelerated the power creep in 5e with the Chronurgist and his other broken munchkin shit.
TM: "Since most campaigns end at .."
Me: "between 10 and 12, so it doesn't really matter"
TM: "between 10 and 15"
How convenient.
War Mage is really underrated IMO. Up to +5 Initiative is amazing.
Amazing breakdown! I agree with you despite the sorcerer being my favorite class. When it comes to utility, recovery, and spell-milage the wizard is on top. But I often find myself to even use all my spell slots at certain levels when playing a full caster. The sorcerer can just break the spell action economy in ways the wizard can't touch. Twin spell essentially doubles the effectiveness, chance of success, or halves the amount of turns a wizard would take depending on the spell. Subtle spell makes you immune to counter spell basically, and quicken spell is amazing for gish builds. If your typically adventuring day has less than 10 rounds of combat on average, than I think the sorcerer slightly edges out the wizard.
In combat maybe, though they don't have the same battlefield control as Wizards. Regardless, they aren't very helpful out of combat.
Two things, one is that those really good class features would mean giving up in other area's where you were comparing certain sub-classes cant have portent and battle magic, the second is gear, I think Tasha's brought the sorcerer ahead on equipment with the blood vial vs arcane grimoire and the other tomes vs shards. I think both considerations are worth half a point each, in the first case as you said about defense vs attack you can't choose more than one so winning in any one category means loosing in others, and I'd say gear is only worth half a point because many games will have non standard gear.
Not having ritual casting is a big downside IMO. Being able to cast detect magic (in particular), without using a spell slot is a BIG deal, at least in the campaigns that I've played in. There are days where I'll use detect magic 3 to 4 times, and I wouldn't feel as though that would really be an option playing a sorcerer. Not to mention leomund's tiny hut, rary's telepathic bond, comprehend languages, unseen servant, phantom steed, and the occasional water breathing...Being able to cast ALL of these spells without using a spell slot or a spell preparation is a big goddamn deal in my eyes, and it directly impacts my appreciation of my character as a spell caster from an RP perspective. YES, you can take the ritual caster feat, but then you're devoting a fair number of your spells known to replicating the baseline wizard, and as Treantmonk said, "feats aren't free." I would go so far as to add the entirety of the wizard ritual spell list in some way shape or form to the column for wizard's prepared spells. Granted, not all of these spells are particularly useful, but those that are tend to be VERY useful often enough to warrant mention.
I do agree however that clockwork soul and aberrant mind are VAST improvements over the baseline sorcerer, so much so that in some areas they can excel over the wizard, particularly in combat due to metamagic being very powerful. Which is a point Treantmonk made in his first video, just wanted to point this out because it's a point worth repeating.
In adventurer's league, ritual casting is not such a big deal - and other classes often can rit cast the main spells: detect magic and comp language. Water breathing rarely matters - rhory's is great but rarely matters. Unseen - tensors disk - alarm - almost never matter. Identify almost never matters and won't reveal some nasty curses. In a lot of other campaigns, it's similar.
what do you mean without using a spell slot? No class has to spend a spell slot to cast any ritual spell as long as you spend whatever the time is to cast plus 10 mins. Do you mean that at least a wizard doesnt have to prepare the spell while all the other classes must have it as a spell known to cast which reduces the number of other spells they know?
@@robertlynch1834 sorcerers can't ritual cast. Period. I mentioned not using a spell slot as a point of comparison between the two classes. I meant exactly what I said.
@@johneubank8543 I've never played in AL, so I had no knowledge of what that style of play is like. In the games my friends and I run, ritual casting is an invaluable resource, but clearly, by virtue of your statement, groups vary a lot. I've used Tenser's floating disk several times in the past, but I agree it isn't invaluable. Water breathing is admittedly campaign dependent. Unseen servant can be used in lots of creative ways, too many to list in a youtube comment reply. Rary's telepathic bond is honestly an incredible spell, especially considering a wizard can cast it without a spell slot. It's useful during infiltration, exploration, and possibly even during combat for coordinating maneuvers without letting the enemy know what you're planning.
@@brooksington4696 My point is that ritual casting isn't always "invaluable" in all ways 5e is played. In your way, it is. Zillions of us play AL - in my experience, it's usually not valuable or needed. Even Rary's - super handy - but not needed. Games run just fine w/out it. Modules are usually short - you can burn a slot - it usually won't matter. What matters in AL most of the time is respecting the action economy - fights are few and short duration - to be effective you want things to miss STs (heightened can be used many times - portent is great, but there are few, and you can roll both high). If fighting a caster, u don't want to be counterspelled (subtle). Sometimes it's hard to control things in modules - they're designed that way or a DM is tired of players making things too easy and uses other monsters, that are hard to control - you want to survive - Quicken and dodge or Quicken and cast Blade Ward. Wiz can go abj, but w/ sorc all can use these action-economy-respecting metas. Wiz is still great - but sorc, before forcecage , in many modules is actually a little better.
FEATS ARE NOT FREE
FEATS ARE NOT FREE
FEATS ARE NOT FREE
FREE ARE NOT FEATS
Literally 1984 smh
you missed an important detail when a wizard multiclasses into artificer.
if you take just one level of artificer you dont lose any spellcaster levels, because of the way it is computed.
and you also gain THE ENTIRE artificer spell list, which includes not too many but some rather nice spells. you dont need to learn artificer spells. you already know ALL OF THEM.....all you need to do is prepare them if you have the slots of the appropriate level.
You only gain the first level spells and 2 cantrips
Is it Wizard? It's Wizard isn't it? It's Wizard.
Loving the Harry Dresden art at 20:12. :D
I beg to differ on the extra attack. Sorcerer doesn't need the extra attack. You can turn an action into a bonus action spell with metamagic. So you can use booming blade twice in one turn, effectively giving you two spells and two attacks. Blade singer can only do two attacks and one spell with their extra attack if they attack and then use booming blade. That gives the advantage to the sorcerer. Granted this requires the use of sorcery points, but they have a higher upper limit. Even more so if you include the charisma bonus from a single level dip into hexblade.
I'd love to see this video but with Bards. I always saw them as a close second to Wizards so I am curious if they are now better of worse then the sorcerer. Or how much worse then the Wizard they really are.
If a was going to argue for sorcerer over wizard I wouldn't pick Metamagic as my main argument, but rather being able to multiclass with Warlock. Your pact of the Tome Sorloc now gets spell slots the refresh on a short rest which can be cheesy, they get Eldritch Blast and Armor of Agathys, three cantrips from any list they want, plus a powerful patron. The synergy here really seems to put this one option above any other multi-class choice either class might have available to them.
I think you need to start with your concept, then decide whether Wizard or Sorcerer is better for your build. Now, because the Wizard has many good subclasses and the Sorcerer only has a few, I would imagine that more often than not, you’ll end up choosing Wizard. But because of Tasha’s and multiclassing, there are at least a few concepts that the Sorcerer can fill better than the Wizard. The “do it all god mage” is a good example of this.
Sorcerers have charisma, which someone already made the joke about hitting Diplomacy checks, but that charisma also makes them better for multi-classing. Bard, Paladin maybe even Warlock could all benefit from Sorcerer. Wizards are not easily effectively MC'ed. Pure class, Wizard of course.
@@sharkforce8147 but the sorcerer makes those good. Sorcadin and Sorlock are both better than a strait Paladin or Warlock and a strait Sorcerer, probably. Sorcadin is insanely good on defense and gets some brutal smites (though it's probably bested by the Palock in that department, so eh), and Sorlock gets to cheese its own mechanics AND use the best cantrip in the game to deal quite a bit more damage than any other caster is capable of.
Sorlock can also get ritual casting (it's the best option IMO) and still have 9th level spells, though it gives up some things to do so. It makes them incredibly versatile (able to cast rituals even wizards can't) and let's them do stupid hypothetical things with sorcery points and spell slots that, given enough downtime, mean you can walk into the next step of your journey like an absolute maniac with 30 8th level spell slots. It's dumb as all hell and most GM's would have problems with it, but it is technically possible. A 20th level sorcerer can also do it, but a Sorlock can do it earlier and also have Eldritch blast.
@@InnsannaStories
-font of magic can only make up to 5th level slots. -And most dm's probably won't put up with coffeelock cheese.
-Book of Ancient Secrets requires a big investment in warlock levels to really get spells a wizard might want [level = to 1/2 warlock level rounded up] -and you lose the possibility of ever getting 9th level spells if you take more than 3 levels in either class.
@@elliotbryant3459 fair, it's been a while. Still, 5th level slots ain't bad. I wonder how a more even split would do. Still, Sorlocks seem good from what my players have done.
@@InnsannaStories Ya they can make some really interesting builds! Just have to weight the opportunity costs.
On a more serious note, when I just got 5th Edition and saw that Wizards could now separated their spells prepared from spells per day, I was like “Well, it’s GG, Wizards win” (I hold a personal grudge against full casters since the days of 3rd Edition, it’s only personal, don’t judge me)
If sorcs take a feat to get something - "you pay a price" - but when wizards are said to have a lot of meta features, but it's one school only here and there, I don't see a similar proviso. Hmm. Honestly, it's so hard to compare classes and say one is "best", especially when campaigns vary so much in style. If I'm playing one with limited rests and many fights a day, I don't want to be stuck firebolting or tolling dead - I want to be a sorlock - at lvl 5, a firebolt is 11 average damage if it hits - toll is 13. A sorlock w/ agonizing blast and keepig a hex going (it lasts a while and can be used over multiple fights), is averaging 11 + 7 + 8 or 26 damage a round when cantripping. Twice that if he quickens, but that will be rare.
Given 5e action economy, even tho class features come later for sorc, w/ meta magic, sorc is very strong early on and mid game, when most of us are playing. Where wizards pull away is lvl 14 or so - forcecage - sorc doesn't get it. But until then, the versatility offered to sorc by meta is so powerful - I find many players don't understand how to do this. Feats - yeah yeah - but take the feat where you get 2 more meta magics, wow. The flexibility of this sorc, early game, is amazing.
TM, sorcadin - especially in AL - is so imba I consider it broken. Yes, the sorc part is weaker, but allowing the sorcadin to have multiple nova rounds smiting is awesome.
Not exactly on topic but I'm definitely dipping my Ghostslayer bloodhunter into war mage for 2 levels. All kinds of insane goodness just from that
War mage? common man who plays that shitty subclass...the reaction is limiting and will make you feel bad when using it and the other features are not to be excited about. I would bury that subclass if I ever had a conversation about wizards.
yeah that is basically just a 2 or 3 level dip subclass.
Comment.
(I don't have anything of particular worth to add to the conversations here, but I *do* know that a comment helps fight what is currently a ridiculously poisonous RUclips algorithm, and I rather like this content.)
Agreed 👍👍
Wizard vs. Sorcerer? Cleric, hands down. Druid close second. Wait, I have to pick between the two?
Well wizard wins if we want a pure spellcaster.
But wizard can't compare to Quickened spell hold person on a paladin who will hit you twice at advantage with guaranteed smite crits or Quickened spell agonizing blast eldritch blasts with hex + hexblade's curse.
Also sorcerer wins thematically. Like come on, subtle spell mass suggestion, careful spell hypnotic pattern, twinned spell divine soul sorcerer buffs? The amount of characters I can create just from combining a metamagic with a spell is fantastic.
Plus, cha > int.
Honestly though, I WISH sorcerers (outfit of clockwork and aberrant mind) could have more spells to choose from. Having to use most of your spells known on the basics of shield, absorb elements, mirror image / blur, misty step, etc on every character leaves so little space for spells that can actually be altered with metamagic. Just let me roll on my wild magic table with my subtle spelled crown of madness, thank you.
Sorcs used to have a leg up when D&D still had a vancian magic system, but alas
I really think that the wizards' spellbook should've also been a factor here. The new Sorc subs sure have more spells known, but I think wizard can be more prepared and versatile.
What a change in 2024. Sorcerer went from a silly wizard subclass idea to fully overshadowing wizard in combat.
Ah, but you have forgotten one crucial thing.
Sorcerers usually have much better physical abilities, so the Sorcerer can just grapple the Wizard.
Since when?
I think you're a little generous to Wizards here. You correctly noted that you couldn't get all the advantages for attacks without missing out on other stuff, and so discounted that as a point for wizards, but you didn't do the same for the defences. And I think that's very important, given the most defensive wizards, abjurers, war mages, and bladesingers, have less effective additional subclass features. (Not that any of them are bad, just, in your list of extra good stuff wizard subclasses get, none of their stuff was mentioned). Meanwhile, the best wizard subclass features in divination and illusion don't come with the defensive boost. I'd also say you were a little generous to wizards on spell selection. With Clockwork soul I really don't think there's more than 1 or 2 spells you really want that you can't get. Plus, as sorcerers can replace old spells on a level up, and wizards can't, wizards have to make a difficult choice at a lot of levels of whether they take good spells now or good spells later. And that is a disadvantage. A really cool video though!
What's this "replacing old spells" you speak of? Whenever one of my spellbooks runs out of room, I just start a new one and hire another caddy with all the gold I can't find a way to spend!
I get what you're saying but wizards not being able to replace spells isn't a factor. They get 2 leveled spells every level after getting 6 at 1st and as many more as they can buy/the DM gives them. A sorcerer can replace the one spell they want for another one they want, whoop-de-doo! Maybe some of the comparisons weren't fully accurate in the video but this isn't Clockwork vs Wizard, this is Sorcerer vs Wizard.
@@AVJHalonen Well this is the subclass video, so it seems worth talking about the subclasses. Also, wizards getting more spells from DM's is incredibly DM dependent. I have never got more spells from a DM in any of my campaigns. And the problem is wizards can get stuck with spells like sleep that just suck as you go up in levels.
@@tomgymer7719 you've never fought a wizard and looted his spellbook afterward? You've never gone shopping for spell scrolls with all the treasure you can't spend any other way?
That's not a defect with the class, that's user error.
@@malusvir No and no, I've never been in a campaign where I have more treasure than I can spend. I've also never fought a wizard who's stupid enough to have an easily findable spellbook.
There's a problem with this entire analysis, because the correct answer is, "It depends what you are going for." If you want to be a blaster, the sorcerer is generally better, thanks to metamagic. If you want to have more utility, then the wizard is better. Some subclass choices can improve the wizard's blastiness or the sorcerer's utility, but not enough to make up the difference.
Honestly, Evocation Wizards are debatably better at blasting than most Sorcerers in a lot of situations since Sculpt Spells is way better than Careful Spell.
@@romanwagner8709 Sculpt Spells gives them the advantage in one specific situation - where your allies are mixed in with enemies and you want to cast an AOE evocation spell. Metamagic gives sorcerers the advantage in more situations, and also gives blasting sorcerers higher DPR potential (unless you subscribe to the Magic Missile cheese).
I am 100% with you up until the defensive options.
Clockwork Soul gets plenty of options to maintain his durability and while Wizards do get all those options they are spread around many subclasses. A war wizard, while getting the very significant advantages of initiative and saving throw bonuses, do not get Portent or the Arcane Ward.
Another thing to mention is the Aberrant Mind 6th level Psionic Sorcery feature, which to my view is really one of the strongest features among all of the subclasses of both classes combined. Reducing the ratio of Sorcery Points to Spell Slot conversion cost to 1:1 is massive, as at that level it is giving you potentially 6 extra casts per day (or 8 if you take the Metamagic Adept feat, which is not free, i know, but in my opinion definetly worth it over any other option). Not only that, Psionic Sorcery adds the benefit of not being able to counterspell those spells that require material component that Subtle Spell cannot protect. As someone who has suggested hags, held person on archmages and telekinesis the arcane focus out of liches, all those counterspell free, i'd say this feature is very hard to overlook.
Considering the Clockwork Soul gets access to a better spell list, I would say that both subclasses do, at least, tie because of this feature alone.
All of that being said, I do agree with you in the overall result that Wizards are stronger than Sorcerers if you combine all the subclasses and look at them in a package. But the Aberrant Mind and the Clockwork Soul are so far ahead from the other sorcerer subclasses, I'd say that the average power level of those two specifically are above the average power level of any wizard.
This was an imense challenge you took and overall I really like your review. Take this constructively please as I consider your channel by a fair marging the best D&D optimization channel in this plataform.
Does the Wizard Prepared Spells list take into account Ritual Spellcasting? A Wizard lvl 1 can prepare 4 spells, but knows 6. If the other two spells can be cast as rituals, then effectively the Wizard has 6 spells prepared but with the caveat of two of them only being cast as rituals. And considering that in a long campaign the wizard will obtain most ritual spells, especially the lower level ones, the actual number of spells Wizards will have "prepared" if you count Rituals, is probably going to be on par with Abberant Mind/Clockwork Soul, with 1 drawback and 1 advantage: the drawback being some of these spells are ONLY available as rituals, and the advantage that they be cast at no cost other than time investment (which may be a steep price on some adventuring days, and irrelevant on others).
So how big is the advantage of a lvl 9 Sorcerer who knows 20 and has 14 spell slots, vs a Wizard who can prepare 13 spells, but knows a minimum of 22 (6 at lvl 1 + 2 per level-up), and also has 14 spell slots plus potentially multiple opportunities for Ritual spellcasting? Any semi-optimized Wizard at level 9 will have potentially 6+ Ritual spells in their spellbook to take advantage of their class. And since out-of-combat spells come up all the time, and are a part of what makes spellcasters powerful to begin with, can you really say the Wizard has 13 prepared spells at level 9 when they can potentially cast at least 18-19 at that level, perhaps even more if they have been taking/finding a lot of ritual spells?
I wish Divine Soul got extra spells like the two new ones 😢
I think one per level (probably up to 5th like subclass spell lists) would be a good balance point.
Multi-class Elf Warlock 2, Sorcerer 2, Wizard xx. You can use the Coffee Lock Loop to get the Wizard several extra spell slots! 😁
Personally, the way I would rank it: the wizard class overall is better than the sorcerer class overall, but I'd take the best built sorcerer over the best built wizard any day. I think sorcerers are simply more fun to play and feel more rewarding to optimize than wizards.
Something to note; Clockwork soul and Abberant mind may add spells known, but they are SET spells known, from the bloodline. And not all of them are good.
I don't think this is exactly an advantage for sorcerer so much as "ok so things are kinda even now, except you lose out on one class feature so have fun with that."
Ya know, unless you're spending every level exchanging the set spells for specific school spells instead of trading out other spells that you might not be using anymore.
Further, it's a bandaid. You can't play a draconic sorcerer but steal the clockwork/abberant options. So you can't build a blaster. You're just trying to play a wizard except you're still worse at it because you aren't flexible.
Also imagine taking mage armor on a sorcerer, thinking you have the spare spells known to afford that. Let alone shield, absorb elements, and any utility/control spells. Before even considering blasting options.
I'm only about 2/3 through but something I'm noticing, especially with the Defensive option comparison, is that any and all Wizard subclasses are being pitted against just two Sorcerer subclasses (mainly Clockwork) which doesnt seem balanced; you can't simultaneously get save bonuses from War Wizard, AC from Bladesinger, and HP from Abjurer. Seems like the goal post is constantly moving to the benefit of Wizard which leaves me more uncertain of the comparison.
Talking about weapon attacks while it does cost lots of resources, it is possible to use booming blade as a quickened spell allowing 2 casts per turn as an early level extra attack
I think people overestimate wizard spellcasting list. Yes, they do have an expansive list, but they have three major limitations. First, everyone works under the assumption that all wizards can play gotta catch em all game with spells. While this may be true for some games, the more likely scenario is that you will have access to only a fraction of the complete spell list by the end of a campaign because of either lack of scrolls/spellbooks to copy from, or just purely gold reasons. Keep in mind that most out of the box modules end at around level 12 with exception of Princes and Abyss, so wizards won't have full access to all spells.
Second, both wizards and sorcs have limited spell slots per day, which acts as its own funnel for reigning in flexibility, and many powerful spells tend to be higher levels, so you might not get the most mileage out of "vast" spell list
Finally, and this is for both wiz and sorc, there are handful of spells that stand above everything else if we are looking things from pure min-max point of view, and most of the times, players just end up either learning these, or preparing them because they are staples. Take Melf's Acid Arrow vs. spiritual weapon. The first spell does some damage, and if target fails, more damage only a round after whereas spiritual weapon stays for a minute. Compared Melf to suggestion. It's some puny damage vs. potential encounter ending spell with some creativity
I think when people look at these two classes, they value having expanded spell list that most of the times won't matter all that much
You forget that Wizards uses spellbooks. There are so many ways a spellbook can be lost, destroyed or stolen.
Although true, I don't think many DM's are such dicks to their wizard players.
It is also important to note that in the class description under spellcasting, it calls out the spell book as being required if a wizard wants to change their prepared spells, but it says prior to this that spell slots are recovered on a long rest without mentioning the book. Therefore, worst case, if a wizard loses the spell book they are stuck with the preparations they have currently. Presumably, if the wizard ever changes preparations, he must have a spell book with all of the spells he wishes to prepare by that time, and any he has prepared previously are “forgotten” if they aren’t written in the new book. But…in any event…losing your spell book isn’t a huge deal at lower level and at higher level you should have already invested in multiple copies if that kind of thing happens in your campaigns.
Tides of Chaos can be really powerful, depending on how the DM resolves whether the wild surge goes or not. If the DM simply allows the wild mage to roll on the wild surge table with the first applicable spell after every use, then the wild mage can spam Tides of Chaos (up to twice per round, using both a reaction and a regular turn to cast spells) - that's really potent, and certainly makes granting advantage on initiative far more worthwhile. Tides of Chaos is also one of the few abilities that can be used on Death saves (on occasions when that actually is relevant). Though even with a DM that allows a wild mage to play this way, the wild mage still has to compete with Clockwork Soul and Aberrant Mind, so I don't think this would change the analysis in a significant way.
Tashas 5th level optional feature for sorcerer has been really strong in my campaign. Sorcerers are just better at counter spell and dispel magic. This was not brought up in this analysis. Getting to re roll a counter spell or dispel magic is huge for one sorcery point. Aberrant mind sorcerer feature psionic casting is so powerful. You can cast these spells so cheaply and so often at high levels. I often find that the aberrant mind sorcerer can cast more often per day than the wizard. At mid to high levels they can trade spell slots to spell points so efficiently. Plus you can add another metamagic on top of that. Combine this with Bloodwell Vial and or God forbid a Shadowfell Shard and your character is monster. These new Sorcerer sub classes and optional features are a ton of fun. loved the Video and the analysis. It was well thought out and presented. One thing about the Aberrant mind Sorcerer that is not clear is can you up cast Psionic spells with spell points. They way i read feature description i think you can.
Abjurers get to add proficiency bonus to Counterspell and Dispel Magic stating at level 10, and was a notable subclass already because of Arcane Ward.
In the previous video in this two-parter he talks about trading sorcery points for spell slots and vice versa.
Spell points is a variant system for spell slot management, though, so if you're considering it as your base you'll have a different impression than a lot of people.
That being said, I'm pretty convinced this is too close to call, unless you start looking at UA (Which Big T never does) and see Lore Mastery.
If you have a DM that tailors magic items for a Sorcerer, it's a huge huge boost. Items don't really exist in the same class-boosting fashion for Wizards. If your DM is trying to give out equitable power though, you might see a Wizard pick up a powerful staff instead.
To the OP, you can't upcast. Base level casting with Sorcery Points.
@@Kai-K You are not saying anything.
@@fftere Okay.
@@fftere why? it does not say you can't
So the evoker requires sight and is only evocation spells. Not that I take careful spell on my sorc anyways, but also not that wizards always go evoker either.
the evokers features don't require a class resource, you're effectively burning up spell slots as a sorcerer to use your class features, this is why every sorcerer subclass is bad. Good subclasses enhance your class' features, they don't cannibalize them.
You've said it best. Sorcerer comes REALLY close thanks to the new Tasha's subs. The sorcerer subs can't be given much more power than they already have or they would be too strong for a sub class, but they add enough to bridge the gap to wizards. It's just some wizard subclasses get that little extra touch on top that makes them better. Especially portent.
Personally not a fan of divination wizard though. Portent is insane, but the class itself doesn't really add a lot of fun things to the class other than a numerical advantage.
I think it has to depend a little bit by level range. Clockwork Soul I think there's a pretty good argument is ahead of all wizard subclasses levels 1-9, which is the levels where I do most of my playing. Even their spell selection keeps up reasonably well in this level range, with access to wall of force, aid, armor of agathys etc. But then Wizards get their 10th level class feature, sorcerers don't, and then we get into 6th, 7th, and 8th level spell selections, which are still incredibly mediocre for Sorcerer (especially 7th and 8th level spells).
Just...all in all, so many of wizard's advantages here don't come until 10th+ level. Better spell selection? Yes, but not really felt below 11th level. More class features at several levels of play? Yes, but only after 10th level (tied below that).
Sorcerer are flat out more powerful in and out of Combat. The Librarian can't get a spell off while Subtle spell ensures every spells is cast.
For consistent arcane ward, you don’t need to burn a feat (which is not free) to get warlock’s armor of shadow. Just ritual cast alarm, an abjuration spell.
That takes a long time - with Mage Armor at will, at level 10, it takes you less than 1,5 minute to regain all 25 hp of your ward. You can basically do it after every battle. No short rest required. With Alarm, it would take you around 2,5 hours.
EDIT: I’ve been running a Tasha’s Custom Lineage "human" abjurer with darkvision and Eldritch Adept, and the amount of damage that gets nullified by Arcane Ward each adventuring day is insane.
Eldritch Adept with Abjurer basically says "Get the benefits of a slightly stronger Tough feat, except you don’t need to make concentration checks, you can regain about a third of your life for free basically forever, and you can share some of your hp with your friends".
Interesting point, though it does take time to do so.
still needs 10 minutes vs 1 action, but it's a intresting solution
Did he note that subsequent castings of armour of shadow would only give 2hp?
Let’s have a duel between an optimized but single-class Sorcerer and Wizard at each play tier, with no magic items!
There is some back and forth, but eventually wizards get a simulacrum, then the contest is over.
Sorcerer literally beating the wizard with a stick while subtle counterspelling all of the wizard actions
Would be interesting, because I think this would favor the sorcerer in a lot of ways. Much of the wizards power comes from out of combat versatility plus buff preparation and ways to approach wildly different adventuring challenges, while a sorcerer with the right metamagic and spell combos can unleash serious nova damage or target crippling saves. Subtle spell against an opponent who’s looking to counter spell is powerful too.
Remember to look at all play tiers. I think an Aberrant Mind Sorcerer with access to Mind Sliver, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, and Metamagic could be terrifying to a Wizard at low levels. How many games have you played that went all the way to Level 20?
@@mojorn8837 yes, and the ability to spam fireball and hide in darkness or greater invis.
I guess it comes down to what you mean by 'better'. Sorcerers deal more damage on average over the course of a combat thanks to metamagic, they're also the strongest healers in the gmae, they also have some of the strongest support turns in the game. Taking haste as a sorcerer almost 'locks in' your role as twinning haste for most of the game if you're just going by what moves are best. Wizards are the kings of versatility, but Sorcerers are a much better blunt instrument than wizards are. They can cast 'more' spells per turn, and on top of that, there's a reason 2 of the best multiclasses for minmaxers take sorcerer levels. (Sorlocks and Sorcadins).
I've always seen wizards as a jack of all trades class. But sorcerers are there if they wanna blow something up. An evocation wizard can deal extra damage on spells, but sorcerers can routinely cast 2 spells.
If WotC put out an errata adding origin spells to previous Sorcerer subclasses, this might have had a different outcome. But god knows they love to keep their pet class on top, not giving Sorcerers any exclusive spells of their own...
Hell, makes me think that the only way someone at WotC managed to give these boosts to sorcerers via the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul subclasses was by arguing that "it won't actually threaten the wizard's monopoly, let them have more spell and one summoning option."
I think the issue is that they don't want to overtly invalidate previously printed books. Which is also why I think they are very reluctant to add many more base classes.
One thing worth mentioning is party funds. Wizards spend 90% of their money on paper and ink.
Sorcerer's have the freedom to spend money how they want
One of the wizard archetypes is the Tasha's book make the time and cost a near non-issue. Kinda cool.
My Clockwork Sorc spends her money on bottles of wine.
@@unicyclepeon Order of Scribes reduces the time to a non-issue, it does not effect the cost
I’d argue that having a sink to spend money on is a pro of the wizard.
@@alexwillis2381 same, most characters find it hard to have something to sink their money into. And it feels more rewarding
This is a very vary interesting video... but, but! When you'll release the next part on the rankings for all subclassed in dnd? I'm so curious xD
Without a doubt, my Divine Soul Sorcerer with 2 level Hexblade dip has been my favorite character to play
another vid let's go!
In previous editions, the advice was to steer new players away from Wizards and, if they wanted to play a caster, point them towards Sorcerers who were an easier class to play. In 5e, I’d recommend Wizards to less experienced players. Sure, post Tasha’s, if you pick the right Sorcerer subclass and you swap out the right spells and you match that with the correct metamagics, you can have a Sorcerer who is now competitive with any of the Wizard subclasses who are just as good straight out of the box without all of that complicated optimizing. Sorcerers have lost their biggest selling point of being the easy Arcane caster to play.
Wizards the masters of planning verses Sorcerers the masters of improvision. Since the classes are so close to each other ranking wise, best is a matter of preference. Players that prefer to improvise might have more fun with the Sorcerer class while players that prefer a class that offers more things to do during prep time might prefer the Wizard class.
i think it really depends on how much combat is involved in a session. Those 5-8 encounters a day i tend to hear about are for a a complete fable. I have never heared of any DM running these kind of endless combat slugfest other then like maybe 1 a campain when it fits. And once you go to like 2-3 fights a day sorcerers are much better. Also on the topic of possible spells: Most of this difference is made up of spells nobody would run anyways, it a much better way to look at what spells Sorcerers really want but cant get and the other way around.
Sorcs get to reroll skill checks for 1 sorc point. That'd include initiative.
In an actuall campaign, ur probably gonna find some spells in scrolls or books. Its a nice boost
Clockwork or Aberrant sorcerer with ritual caster wizard as first feat …
Or divine soul if your table has added an expanded list to even out base subclasses with Tasha’s
I personally love 3 levels lore bard with sorcerer. That a lot of decent cantrips, 1st, and 2nd level spells. The frees up most my sorcerer spells for higher level
For me the role play of being a charisma based character is what does it for me. I know that’s a totally subjective personal thing
Mechanically subtle spell is pure awesomeness
The three bard levels besides giving so many good spells and features pumps your counterspell and dispel magic ability.
Sorcerers get extra attack when they need it. Quickened booming blade …
The video's question itself is misleading. Is Wizard or Sorcerer the most powerful class? If all the power of Sorcerer lies within 1-3 subclasses with Clockwork Soul being tops, then can we actually say that it's the "class" that is powerful? No, it's the subclass. Wizard > Sorcerer. Period.
Wizard + certain strong subclasses edges out Sorcerer + clockwork soul (the strongest sorcerer subclass).
I think he talks about this in his other video where he compares the base classes against each other not considering subclasses. If you want his review on that one it is already up
He also comes to the same conclusion that you do which is wizards are much superior
Some classes have more power in the core features and others have more in the subclass. If you're comparing classes you really need to take the whole package into account since no one is playing without a subclass.
you act like aberrant mind and clockwork Sorcerer is all Sorcerer has and your not really wrong, you mentioned so many wizard subclasses and only 3 Sorcerer ones. Wizard should get points for that. tdlr can aberrant mind and clockwork beat the power of wizards.
Depends what you mean by Power? In certain niches I would say yes. Like Abberant mind can simply cast his psionic spells so cheaply and use other spell slots to fuel them. Therefor i would say Aberrant mind sorcerer can cast more spells than wizard. Plus they can add a meta magic on top of the No V. S. M. But that Wizard spell list is better and wizard has the potential to cast a better spell.
"can aberrant mind and clockwork beat the power of wizards."
like the other reply said, in certain aspects of play, yes. Metamagic is VERY powerful in practice, especially once you enter mid-high levels. Subtle spell makes it so that you can't be counterspelled in a wizard duel. Twin spell makes even low level single target cc abilities very formidable (i.e. tasha's hideous laughter, dissonant whispers, hold person, etc.)
In combat especially, sorcerer's are capable of extremely explosive turns compared to the wizard by virtue of their metamagic. However, prior to the release of clockwork soul and aberrant mind, I'd argue that the class as a whole was severely lacking in out of combat flexibility (due to fewer spells known). The class still suffers from not being able to ritual cast as well.
TL;DR: it's complicated, but yes.
I looked up the Chronurgy subclass, it's apparently Matthew Mercer's brainchild and... da fuq? Isn't he supposed to be an awesome DM? It's like playing a 3.5E Wizard in 5E.
The overall power and usefulness of the Sorcerer as the party member will depend greatly on how important the social pillar of DnD is in your campaign. If the DM tends to minimize/ignore it in favor of combat and exploration, Sorcerer's Charisma skills are a nonfactor, while Wizards with their more prepared spells and ritual casting can actually contribute to exploration, something that Sorcerers aren't meant to do.
I agree about Clockwork Soul and Aberrant Mind now being objectively the best Sorcerer subclasses. Divine Soul is still there, the Cleric's list of spells is so potent, but you have to make sacrifices when learning spells - you can't have everything that you want, you have to pick and choose what to specialize in. For example, I often ditch Dispel Magic in favor of Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians or now Spirit Shroud. Also, you gotta get Aid and Heal and that leaves little room to take things like Mirror Image, Misty Step, Shatter, Disintegrate, Chain Lightning. You can't have all of those, you have to choose.
32:04 "So where does that leave us?" With me hoping you'll do an update of your War Mage build so I can see whether you'd go Artificer now or stick with your Gith Battlemaster. =)
I played a hobgoblin artificer warmage for AMAZING save boosts (hobgoblin get an addition up to +5) and martial proficiency. His main attack at low levels was launching alchemists fire and acid using catapult. One of my favourite characters. Works even better with Tashas stat versatility
Hmm seems a bit off at the end. Certain wizard subclasses out do clockwork sorcerer in some aspects but as you said you can't play multiple subclasses. Seemed like at the end when considering the variety of subclasses that could beat certain aspects of the sorcerer you would have had to remove points from the wizard to add them back with a different subclass but you didn't.
you forgot to mention wizards also have the advantage of not needing to prepare their ritual spells.....That's a lot of extra preparation equivalents right here
I strongly agree. In my gameplay with wizards in particular, I've found Wizard ritual casting to be an incredibly important part of the class, especially at low levels.
I feel like metamagic is over-weighted in this comparison, and that the wizard's spell list is under-weighted.
On the metamagic side, through most of the game play, the Sorcerer is only going to get to do this a couple times per day. Yes, he can sack slots to increase sorcerer points. But that cost cuts directly into the primary feature of the class. Yes, metamagic is powerful. But it's not available. I think that it compares very evenly to Ki, and the troubles with Ki management. You NEED to spend it to deliver the promise of the class, and it goes away so fast that you end up playing most of the game without the resource that kind of defines the class.
On the wizard's spell list side, spells are THE reason to play either class. Every single time the wizard gets to pick something he really wants, and the sorcerer picks something lesser, it is a big win for the wizard. When ritual casting is factored in, the wizard's list is an even bigger advantage, because a few of those preparation slots that discussed so much are are freed up by the wizard's ritual casting mechanic. These are not insignificant spells, even at higher levels of play. The features discussed in this video make it sound like they're of comparable value in the end assessment, and they're NOT. Spells are the whole of each class. Every other feature combined is less significant than the spellcasting feature alone. Being able to choose the most valued spells at each level, especially when those spells hold their value at later levels, is NOT a small win. Being able to write down far more spells than you can prepare, and then swap them out on a rest, so that your prepared list is tailored to what you're doing, is HUGE. I mean, that's one of the big advantages that the WIS casters have, and (I imagine) one of the reasons that we'll never see their spell lists expand to rival the wizard's.
In the end, I feel like the comparison is kind of like comparing troops and logistics between 2 rival armies. But one army has AWACS and satellites, and the other does not. The strategic advantage of the overhead view makes every other asset more significant. The wizard's spell list is that strategic advantage, and sorcerer points don't come close to evening that power balance.
Have you seen an Abberant mind sorcerer play yet? Casting psionic spells is crazy good. What other caster in the game can cast 10 synaptic statics a day at level 10? Comes with free subtle spell and you can add metamagic on top. Abberant mind is the most efficient and powerful caster i have ever played.
@@rothgartheviking858 that assessment is big on subjectives, and short on hard facts. The 2 classes start with the same slot progression, and the wizard's Arcane Recovery means that he'll consistently cast more than the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer can come close if he uses ALL of his Sorcerer points for slots, but then he's given up all uses of metamagic.
I totally agree that the Aberrant Mind is a big step forward for Sorcs. I still don't think they close the gap. To be clear, the best 2 Sorcerer subclasses are competing with the wizard baseline...
@@ChristnThms Wizards are fantastic. I have played most of them. Have not played blade singer or Enchantment. Abberant mind sorrcerer is just more powerful at mid levels. I really don't even think there is a valid comparison. At level 9 a wizard has 1 level 5 spell slot the aberrant mind has effectively 13. This is how you play this class. Arcane recovery can't even come close to this. This difference becomes evident especially when you have a wizard in your party he is slinging firebolts and your slinging synaptic static as if it was a cantrip. Now in late game i think wizards are better. However i have never played a game above level 13. Probably never will.
@@rothgartheviking858 I don't know where you're getting 13 level 5 slots. You get 1 from slot progression; if you sack ALL of your slots on sorc points, you can have 8. That is definitely an interesting trick, but it also means you're pretty useless beyond those 8 castings. That definitely doesn't make you a better caster.
...and seriously, you're measuring power by casting Synaptic Static? I mean, it's not a bad spell. But there are no blasts that are game changers at those levels. Polymorph or Slow is more likely to change an encounter.
What's better a Porsche 911 or a Fendt 1050 tractor? Sure we can compare horsepower, max speed or torque but all of this misses the point. Do you want to race the Nurburg Ring or plow a field?... Same goes for the Sorcerer and Wizard. For example there is no way to replace a 6/14 Sorcadin with a Wizard (Multiclass) and the Sorlock is a pure caster but has completely different strengths compared to a Wizard (MC).
Defensive options, you give the point to Abjuration
Weapon use, you give points to Bladesinger but rightfully note that the point from Abjuration "cancel out" this point.
Initiative, you give a point to Warmage for (initiative + saving throws) without noting that doing so ignores 1) the point from Abjuration and 2) the Clockwork Sorc's hp advantage
Subclass options, you name half a dozen wizard classes that you've either not mentioned at ALL yet or have only sparingly referenced...
And again, as you noted in the Weapon Use section, you can't give points for multiple subclasses of the same class without erasing some.
Honestly, if you do the math using this "point for point" system for each individual wizard subclass versus Clockwork, it sounds an awful lot like Clockwork comes out on top (other than Chronurgy).
I'd love to see a more balanced look at this, because it really feels like you were searching for reasons to give the wizard the win.
Maybe do a Divination vs Clockwork breakdown? I feel like Divination is probably the best all-round wizard subclass, though Bladesinger and Abjuration are both contenders.
I also personally feel like the Abjuration + Eldritch Adept combination is in the same category as Chronurgy in that it fundamentally breaks the game (though not to the same degree), but it is RAW, so oh well.
So before it was like almost any wizard could beat out a single class Sorcerer, but now only the specialized Wizards compete with Tashas Sorcery options 🤔
Real life philosofies teaches us... sorcerer is king, but I like wizards way more. The fact is that to spend several hours studying makes a person extremely successful in that field, but takes away much needed knowledge from other sides of life. Think of the personal sacrifices someone needs to become a wizard and compare it to a born sorcerer. Sorcerer may not be that wise or inteligent, but as in life: thats way you build a team. Its like that old Ford saying... ask me any question, I have someone who can answer it (or something lik that).
Fighter is, has always been, and will be the strongest class in D&D.
yes
Average “caster” fan vs. average fighting enjoyer
Warlock is the queen
I think you overlooked a key feature of wizards in general and the Order of Scribes subclass, and that is the wizards ability to expand the spells in their spell books and write scrolls. That means that potentially that 100+ advantage in spells on the list could wind up in the spell book. The Master Scrivener feature also makes writing spell scrolls an advantageous way to spend downtime. Casting spells through the Manifest Mind at 6th level could add up to 300 feet to your range on attacks, enable you to cast spells around corners, or even send it in through a window and Fireball a room without even entering the building! Sorcerers got nothing that comes close to that!
Straight class wizard is stronger I think but if you are multiclassing I think there are a lot of awesome and very powerful multi class options you can do with a backbone of sorcerer
your massively overvaluing spells known. the sorcerers spells he does know can be used way more impactfully, and your practically ignoring amazing subclasses because "spells known"
EX: the draconic sorcerer gets mage armor for free as a class feature at level 1. he never has to ever pay the mage armor tax, because of this. then at level 14 he gets flight, replicating the effect of a 3rd level spell for free. then he can concentrate on sunbeam, and then quicken out a spell like synaptic static. adding it all up:
6d8+8d6 AOE damage with blinding, and debuff rider effects to boot. and if synaptic static goes off, you can then switch to quickening another blasting spell, and basically benefit from the effects of 5 fucking spells at once because synaptic static doesn't go away for a minute so spamming it more than once is redundant. all the while your flying, and also more durable than any other wizard in the game.
also your pretty much ignoring the fact that sorcerers are more effecient at dealing damage in combat in general vs a wizard. the closest a wizard can match is evoker, which won't keep up
8:32
Two things:
1) you only gain the saving throw proficiencies of your first class, so you'd have to start your career as an artificer for that to work
2) with one level in artificer and one less level in wizard, you would have as many spell slots due to a quirk with artificer multiclassing not present in other half-casters. Still the highest level spell you can prepare as a wizard is stunted, so it is only really useful for upcasting
If you think of every wizard as having 1 level of artificer or cleric, you really ought to imagine every sorcerer having 2 levels of Hexblade with EB/Agonizing novas on tap. Given that so much of the game is combat, having the best attack cantrip and more bonus action options (not to mention a couple short rest slots) makes a sorlock pretty reliable, if clearly always less versatile. But, if you also take Fey Touched at L1 for misty step/alacrity (or hex, or bless) to get 18CHA to start with…adding on Mask of Many Faces makes you a huge RP/social contributor… if not the party face. In general, wizards suck at persuasion. That is why you need guidance. So, how the balance between art-wizard and sorlock looks is based on how much social/RP is essential to the mission and how much game time it takes. For a decent number of games, being the wizard with 8CHA sucks.