Video Sponsored by Dscryb. Visit them at: dscryb.com/treantmonk Remember to use the Coupon Code TREANTMONK for 10% off initial subscription Also, when I discussed spending 7 sorcery points to "recover" a 5th level spell slot, I meant "gain" a 5th level spell slot.
I think with Warlock you will have to evaluate each subclass with each pact option before making a video showing the best patron + best pact combo, to determine the rank. Gl & hf.
Thanks for these lists, Chris. As for the Wild Magic subclass, can we agree that it never was about optimization but for adding an aspect of luck and risk to sorcerers akin to the rogue and bard.
TIDES OF CHAOS: "You can gain advantage on a d20 roll!" "That's good!" "But it's only once per long rest." "Oh, that's bad." "But you can potentially get it multiple times before a long rest!" "That's good!" "But it depends on your DM remembering you have it." "That can be bad." "But if they do remember, you get more uses just by casting spells!" "That's pretty good!" "But then you have to roll on the Wild Magic Surge table." "..." "That's sometimes bad, sometimes good, and mostly neither." "Can I go now?"
I have played wild magic sorc. I pretty much insisted on reset tides of chaos and rolling on wild magic. You also have a chance to roll on wild magic if you haven't used it. If you're at a table where he doesn't always have you reset tides as much as you want, you need to leave or play a different class. You're playing very gimp char with no features if you're not using the wild magic table. With the wild magic table, it is potentially the most powerful caster at a table since most of the options are good or neutral, and if you take tiefling for fire resistance or learn to distance yourself 20 feet before casting, or don't use tides if you don't want to risk it, and if you take subtle spell, and if you tell your party about the self polymorph potions (plant, etc), you can avoid most of the negative options.
I would certainly homebrew this: Rolling yet another dice to check whether a Wild Surge appears makes perfect sense for such an erratic class. - Unless, of course, the DM completely insists.^^
Sorcerers do not get enough love especially post Tasha's. Would it break the game to give all the other sorcerer subclasses extra spells like Aberrent Mind or Clockwork have? What would your lists look like?
PHB subclasses could probably get a full list. I love the idea of slapping every rng spell into a list for Wild Magic (culminating in Reincarnate, of course)
I think only Storm and Draconic are the only ones that really need it. Storm I would have a list similar to Tempest cleric. Draconic would work like Genie warlock, with 5 set spells and 5 based off of your dragon type. Wild Magic I’m not sure about. It has a lot going on at 1st level with wild surges (what it needs is some player control). Divine Soul and Shadow are already very strong right out of the gate, even without the extended spells. I think adding the extra spells would almost push them into S tier.
Well, the problem now is, which pet control rules? There are different rules for familiars, beast master companions, Conjure-spell minions, Summon-spell minions, Wildfire spirits, and probably a couple other types. The newer ones are better, if you can remember all their little differences from the older ones. I suppose if I were running a came I would house-rull the lot of them to all behave the same unless there were very good reasons not to. But, this is the sorcerer video, and sorcerers don't get summons, so :-P
but then you get one less subclass. it tskes time and space to print this. draconic might suck but id rather have two options rather than one with shadow because alternative is just getting better draconic.
Honestly, the Sorcerer could've easily gotten their Level 14 and 18 abilities earlier on level 10 and 14... its just silly to have 8 levels between a sub-class feature gain...
While we're talking about delayed features, can I take a moment to complain about how Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster have to wait until 13th heckin level to get their 3rd level spells? There's a reason 3rd level spells are the game changer for casters, so you don't feel like a proper gish until after your 2nd extra attack. Until then, most of your spells feel restricted to simple utility. I don't think I used any spells other than Shield and upcast Fog Cloud (Because our Sorcerer never picked anything except damage spells. Not even Shield.)
@@greycat5383 Because if Eldritch Knight was a half-caster than there would be no point in playing something like Battle Smith/Armorer. The existance of Bladesingers (which is a mistake) already kinda does that, don't need to dunk on Artificers even more.
@@Loeher @João Ralha There already isn't much reason to play an Artificer, except for Multiclassing. It's a very niche class, with its strengths largely campaign dependent. Moreover, their spells are a mishmash of Cleric/Wizard spells, nothing truly used by the classic spellsword players look for. And if we go by the argument that Bladesinger was a mistake, that STILL doesn't leave us with a proper spellsword character, let alone a half-caster. As for Eldritch Knight, they're already restricted to Abjuration and Evocation. Sure, they FINALLY get Fireball at 13th level, which might arguably make them better at AoE than a Paladin, but a Paladin almost certainly beats them in single target damage, and better sells the concept of spells>melee power. I suppose you could run an Eldritch Knight fully into melee dps, but then you're probably using your extra attacks over war magic, which means you aren't even really a spellsword anymore. There simply isn't a Paladin equivalent martial caster class, and an Eldritch Knight getting half-casting hardly breaks the game, if at all.
@@greycat5383 in case you're interested, I'm nearly finished with a homebrew class that I created mainly to fill that gap left beside the paladin. It's an elemental 1/2 caster with the spellcasting system of a warlock, just no patron. I'd gladly share it with anyone who might review or try it
It's a Paladin spell, so it's level 9, unless you go 5 levels into Twilight Cleric for some reason. Also, spending one of your metamagic options on extend spell isn't the best idea imo. That said, A twilight Cleric picking Metamagic Adept might just do the trick.....
@@prixiusnecrolance8531 Ah, but with Tasha it's on the Cleric list now as well, perfect for a divine soul. Or a bard with magical secrets and a feat to get metamagic. Or a cleric with the feat. plenty options to get it at level 5. And even if you get it at level 10, it's still insanely strong even then.
Subtle Spell is honestly one of the best metamagics in the game. Counterspell that can't be countered is really good but it goes deeper than that. As long as you aren't casting something like fireball were the spell effect comes from you, the enemy has no way of knowing you're the one who cast it. Good use of subtle spell or the 6 level feature of Aberrant Mind means that the aggro you draw from enemies is incredibly reduced. Why attack the weirdo hiding in the background when a big barbarian is slamming your face in all the while spell effects are being flung at you from seemingly nowhere. Add onto that your good charisma, try to deceive your enemies on occasion. Say "Thank goodness our Paladin's got that magic item to cancel out enemy magic, they sure saved us!" and more aggro has been taken away from you and onto the people who can take the damage. Social encounters are made simple with subtle suggestions, buff allies while not giving the enemies the idea you've hasted your ally until it's too late, possibilities are endless and it all costs 1 sorcery point!
The social encounters alone are so great with subtle spell. So many times as a non-sorc I've wanted to cast something but I'm worried about who would see or hear it occurring.
@@crimfan Can't use it for counterspell since the spell's trigger is a spell being cast within 60ft around you. You can't increase the range because the trigger can't be increased
@@Zepherus14 Good point, I was misremembering an application of Distant Spell which prevented a Counterspell. It lets you make a lot of 60' range spells safe from being countered.
I sometimes seriously wonder if wizards even play dnd or just comes up with stuff. The clip of Todd Kendrick (I think) not knowing about concentration is so telling about who wizards hires to work on their game. Although Chris may or may not be interested in game design I think wizards could benefit from having a play test team like they do in magic where they take a group of players who know their sh*t and make them play the new subclasses before releasing them.
@@magnuskeisneerbek8847 todd has never worked for wizards? He worked for dnd beyond which is a third party provider. Its the equivalent of complaining about complaining about a waiter not knowing how to cook your food. I mean sure they might, but theyre not the ones making the food(content)
WotC has said they're more interested in everyone having fun than working on balance primarily, which frankly makes a lot of sense to me, since min-maxxing is only a small part of the game for most players in my experience. That said, I do hope they smooth out SOME of the rough edges. Even years and years in, there are some classes that, simply by picking them, you're likely to not have a good time playing.
I was so excited when this video came out! I have to say though, a very easy way to resolve the "does it trigger" question regarding wild magic surges with your DM is just to talk to them beforehand. Come up with a system that works. I genuinely advocate to just have them okay the player with ALWAYS triggering the surges when applicable. It's extremely fun and can lead to some awesome or horrifying moments!
I hope you've got more than the standard 50(?) options in your Wild Magic table in that case, since it's going to be triggering so often that you'll start getting doubles.
Honestly, I was down on the sorcerer up until this point because my friends had convinced me it was the weakest caster. After hearing your analysis of Aberrant Mind, I’m considering giving it a go.
The Tasha subclasses take the old sorcerer weakness and bend it 180 degrees into their greatest strength! AM and CS are some of THE most versatile casters in the game, having the Wizard's Spell List, the Cleric's Spell Quantity, AND Metamagic
I like the flexibility the class offers, either on it's own, or as an addition to a multiclass abomination. I agree that outside the two kinda busted ones, it rarely impresses like some of the others... but really, the same can be said about the less optimal subclasses of other casters. Rocking a Necromancer Wizard, for example.
As DM i did 4 things for wild magic in my campaign: 1) i made a new table. Every odd number is the vanilla list, the even numbers are new entries 2) roll a dice on every leveled spell you cast. Every time you dont surge, the "dc" increases by 1. So at the start of the day you need a 1. Then if you cast and dont roll a 1 it increases to 2 and so on. It resets to 1 after each surge and also resets to 1 after a long rest 3) tides of chaos causes a surge on the next spell you cast and resets the check "dc" to 1 4) i added a list of granted spells as if it were a tashas subclass. They can be replaced by enchantment or illusion spells from the sorcerer warlock or wizard lists
@@Dark_Aves Perfection. Other than wording it slightly differently that's exactly what I would do. The Tasha's sorc kits are so wildly more powerful than the ones that came before that I'm surprised they didn't retroactively create bonus spell- known lists for all the older kits.
@@johngleeman8347 the wording here isnt exactly what I made on DndBeyond, butnkt gets the idea across. And they definitely should have given older Sorcerous Origins more spells to bring them more in line with Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul. Its something that I'm definitely doing for my games if someone wants to play one of those subclasses but still want to stay relevant
Quicken has other uses too, just think outside the box. You can Quicken a spell and then use your action to Dash, or Dodge, or *Disengage*, the latter being very potent indeed. You can also use it in tandem with a Blade cantrip to give yourself psuedo Extra Attack in a pinch. You can Quicken a spell that possesses an effect you can activate as an action-- Sunbeam comes to mind-- and then use your action to trigger the effect-- often a second time-- on the same turn the spell was cast.
Agreed, the versatility of quicken spell is often forgotten, as it allows you to both cast a spell while preserving your action for other uses. In particular, many magic items have require an action to activate; this can be your humble healing potion or the powerful cube of force!
The best way I’ve seen quicken spell put is it lets you use your spell for the turn, while also freeing up your action to do a non-spell thing. Pretty good if you’re desperately in need of a dodge or disengage to keep yourself alive
Don't forget that you can use items as an action, as well. Even low level there can be fun stuff you can pull with this. Cast grease and drop caltrops at a "choke point." Cast a spell and quaff a healing potion. Cast a spell and use a healer's kit (better with healer feat, obviously). Cast a spell and apply a poison to the Paladin's halberd. Still a little too expensive at low level (imo) for most builds. But, even without multiclassing, it is extremely good by the time you hit level 10. And while I know people don't like to assume magic items in these discussions, I think it is extremely likely that players will have access to some uncommon items by tier 2 that can provide interesting non-spell uses of your action. (Robe of useful items, immovable rod, etc.)
If you’ve built a gish with sorcerer it’s incredible. Either buff yourself with like haste and still attack that turn or spirit guardians if you’re a divine soul or I’ll sometimes use it as a Paladin to throw a third melee attack with a Blade cantrip so another chance to crit and smite
Storm Sorcerers NEED to take Transmute Spell as a Metamagic option. You probably took this into account but you didn’t mention it, but it gives you much better spell options to trigger your class abilities.
With the Quickened Spell Metamagic that limits you to only using a cantrip, is it possible to order the spells such that you use the cantrip Mind Sliver that can reduce the next saving throw and then go into a saving throw based spell?
@@andrecosta8680 He may have misspoke, but casting a leveled spell as a bonus action prevents you from casting a levelled spell as an action that turn. Cantrips aren't considered leveled spells, so they don't prevent you from casting one as a bonus action
@@andrecosta8680 Mind Sliver is a cantrip. You can cast a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action even if you cast a spell as a bonus action on your turn.
It's actually a good balance thing if there are no "must have" metamagic options. Imagine if you didn't have choices because the good ones were just too good.
Was going to post a similar thing. The truth is, Chris does describe Subtle as 'one of the better ones' and Twinned as 'can be extremely powerful' - so although most of the metamagics are duds, it is not true of all of them. Honestly, Twinned single-target buffs on other players is carrying this - unless you multiclass. The irony of this is that Metamagic is better at making other classes better than it is at making the Sorcerer themself better (whether twinning buffs on others OR multiclassing). Still, this is a plus for Sorcerer. When optimising, this tends to be fine. What I really don't like is how much of a trap this makes Metamagic for new players, because if you don't pick Twinned you are pretty much losing out on the only feature Sorcerers have that is beneficial compared to Wizards. That is on top of the new player trap that is Known Spells in the first place.
@@RJWhitmoreTwin Spell haste is such an obvious and simple combo that I think it's pretty damn self evident, I think you're not giving people enough credit.
I really appreciate you highlighting where the rogue fit into the mishmash of subclasses at the beginning of your video. Thanks for the content as well!
I like that you acknowledged that sorcerers are lighting the fire under wizards subclasses to start providing something interesting besides "half cost spells". The Divination wizard has, imo, set the bar for what new wizard subclasses should be measured against.
I guess what I’m expecting is for the base wizard chassis to be an A regardless; Necromancer (sadly) is probably my pick for the ‘weakest’ - though as I fully expect to hear in the video, it’s still a wizard.
@@joehill6916 Nah, he said he felt that Sorcerer had the second best spell list in the game, and they still only ranked a C with their worst subclasses. He's also said that Charisma based classes are some of the best for multiclassing, and Intelligence based ones are some of the worst. I'd say that the worst wizards will still get a B, but I think a lot will get an A, with a couple S-tiers.
One time I used the dragon sorcerer level 1 thing, adv on charisma checks while talking to dragons. I never thought it would come up, but it was situationally helpful that one time. Mostly went there for the AC buff to save a mage armor spell slot. Again great video and thanks for continuing this series. I love how you give almost every low level feature a good examination where other reviewers sometimes just read the book text and continue without much analysis. Good stuff keep it up :D
They are Also going to be the most prevalent in multi-classing. I personally wouldn’t allow warlocks to mix too much with other classes. Specifically the warlock to SP convertion mentioned in this video. To me it seems like the warlocks specifically didn’t get normal spell slots to prevent this.
Five tiers is a pretty bold prediction. Five tiers would have to be like...S, A, B, C, and D, I guess? A, B and C tiers, no problem I can see warlock in all those tiers. But... I don't expect any warlock to get S. I can't see Hexblade being S--hexblade has some balance issues, but most of hexblade's balance issues are "it's a good 1 level dip, whereas other warlocks are bad 1 level dips, therefore there's not much variety in warlock dips." The game wouldn't break if we took some of the hexblade class features and just made them part of the warlock base class. So...hexblade mostly has balance issues *between* warlock subclasses rather than a character with hexblade in it breaking the game. Unless Treantmonk wants to put Undead Warlock at S? Undead warlock's fear is really good, and certainly abuseable, but is it "ban this from your table" tier good? Ehh...I would be surprised if this was how he saw it. On the flip side...is there going to be a warlock in D? We've yet to see a single full caster in D--I thought maybe sorcerer would finally place a full caster in D, since they have lots of weaknesses (d6 hit points, no armour proficiencies, lowest spells known but still need mage armour). And while sorcerer does have the two lowest ranked full casters so far, storm and wild magic are still 11 subclasses above the C/D boundary--that's a lot of buffer to be worse than storm sorcerer and still be C tier. Every warlock also at minimum can pick up a pretty good eldritch blast (agonizing blast + repelling blast) or whatever invocations Treantmonk decides to use to evaluate the classes (misty visions is good; mask of many faces is good, devil's sight is good). Every warlock subclass also still gets a pact boon. Summon spells from Tasha's are also very good for warlock, cause they have hour long durations and upcast well. Like...to put a Warlock in D, you have to decide that Arcane Archer is better than someone with Eldritch Blast who has Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Hypnotic Pattern, Summon Fey/Undead, and a few other goodies (some more invocations, a pact boon).
@@KaitlynBurnellMath I'd argue hexblade has a case for S tier given the multiclass potential, making classes SAD, providing armour, hexblade's curse and spells for a 1 level dip is so much stronger than every other multiclass option in the game.
@@lazydk2654 Unfortunately, if you read the exact wording of Font of Magic and Pact Magic they are compatible. Font of Magic simply states it consumes a spell slot, Pact Magic states they are spell slots.
@@johndevlin9225 Hexblade is a weird one, kinda like Moon Druid, I feel. Hexblade 1 and 2 are absurdly good. After Hexblade 2... meh? Better than Moon Druid after 2, for sure, but, it's really coasting on those level 2 features, I feel. Honestly, I think Hexblade actually isn't that much of a problem. It's not like Moon Druid 2, where on its own, it's an absurdly broken class that trivializes encounters and outdoes entire parties on its own, or can carry an otherwise complicated and not-functional-until-later build for many levels on its own. The problem is more just how much Charisma synergy there is in 5e, and how many things can benefit hugely from what it provides. Bards with combat on par with Fighters. Sorcerers getting armor and weapons for free. The odd Fighter or Barbarian getting magic abilities that likely exceed a subclasses ability, while still improving at combat. Paladins getting away with dumping Str, and smacking things entirely with their dazzling smile. To me, those are more the problems with Hexblade. Hexblade 1&2 are kinda overpowered and versatile, but, not as a subclass that really works by itself, it only works as well as it does because a Charisma engine itself is so powerful. Which maybe means it's broken? But, in a weird way. That or I've just never seen a pure Hexblade played well.
Great video and series! I do notice some themes are becoming quite commonplace across classes. For example, once again, the 5e problem of trying to fix underperforming classes via adding over-turned subclasses to source books takes center stage, which I think your ratings format does a great job of highlighting.
I've been enjoying the series so far. I think Treantmonk's inherent bias toward spellcasters has him putting Storm, and Wild Magic Sorcs higher than they deserve here.
Something to remember in the rating system is that a no subclass sorcerer is a C, so to get lower than a C the subclass must make the main class worse.
Thank you for yet another great video! Nitpicks: Quickened spell allows your character to cast a leveled spell and do other [mundane] actions such disengage, dash, dodge... I know a full caster preferably shouldn't be focus/targetable/seen by enemies in the first place, but it still can happen, especially at lower levels (also depending upon your party and your game master). I wish you did talk about the metamagic adept feat and how it and the metamagic options mehs with the different subclasses. E.g.: Isn't the shadow sorcerer more sorcery point hungry than the other subclasses? Do any of the subclass gain more or less from the extra Metamagic options? Should a sorcerer take the MMA feat and if so at which level? Etc. I think you could even make a short video on this topic ;)
After I saw which subclasses you were showing first I got worried, knowing it would only get worse from there. Aberrant Mind, and Clockwork Soul I think are gonna be a go to Sorcerer from now on, or at least until the other subclasses get their own expanded spell list.
Faithful fan here with a tiny feedback... I would still be really interested in your thoughts on the subclasses above level 10. I know some tables that start at level 10 just to enjoy the high level stuff (not common, i know. but still...). Your work is always super clear and insightful. Thanks for everything!
I agree with you. I feel this oversight has slightly hurt the ranking series. Sure, we all understand that most campaigns do not reach the highest levels, but some of them do, in which case, this ranking list becomes useless as a guide from level 13+. I think it would be much better to take those higher features into account, but then weigh them less.
@@roberttschaefer Maybe a second series is in order? I'd be down for that. Hoping for a part two would be justified considering the depth (and time) of the analysis offered.
I wouldn't mind also seeing this, but it starts getting more complicated because you are going to start seeing fewer and fewer people staying single class. 5e classes are pretty much all frontloaded, with many of the best abilities being granted and levels 1 and 2. High level sorc subclasses, I think Clockwork is *still* the best. Their level 14 is amazing.
You did forget to mention the Storm Sorcerer getting two resistances at 6 with their ability that pairs with spells that do thunder/lightning damage. Sure, thunder and lightning aren't common damage types, but still two resistances beats no resistances.
@@rogerjolly1358 Wait, so you activate tides of chaos, which makes you roll on the table on the next spell. And when you roll on the table, you get it back. So you have it that a spent tides of chaos is regained after every single spell?
@@scrotymcboogerballs6756 Yes, haven't seen an issue yet. At lower levels, you don't have many spell slots to use and at higher levels, tides of chaos help but aren't game-breaking. If it starts to look broken at some point I may let the player know we are going to randomize the return but it has only been fun so far.
@@scrotymcboogerballs6756 You activate Tides of Chaos too get an advantage on the next roll. Then u cast a scorcery-spell and roll on the chaos-chart. Then u get the tides of chaos option back.
My little houserule for Sorcerer is that they work on the spell points system variant rule with their sorcery points stacked on top of the spell points, and cast directly from them. This handily lets me cap spell points at a maximum value to prevent coffeelock exploits while helping emphasize the sorcerer's flexible spellcasting by letting them bypass the bonus action usually needed to shuffle slots and points around. Altogether, it feels a lot more flavorful and fun for such a small change that's already a variant rule in the book!
My table does a similar thing. I'm playing a Divine Soul Sorcerer with these rules and origin spells, and I LOVE PLAYING THEM! It makes me feel like I'm more than just like Wizard+Cleric lite, I feel like I am my own thing and that my power truly comes from me.
@@Loeher They gain spell points while taking other classes at the rate the other class would in the variant spell points system. In the case of warlocks, I give them spell points equal to the amount required to cast their spells. For example, 3 levels of warlock grants 2 level 2 slots so 6 spell points - and then I let them recover 6 spell points on short rest.
@@s0niKu I guess with low level multiclasses it does not matter (you normally only dip warlock 2/3), but if you give higher level warlocks spell points, that changes them quite a bit, namely, that they could cast low level spells without having to upcast them now. That makes many spells (like shield) A LOT better, and changes the number of spells between short rests. I think warlocks are very weak, so that is not something that makes them OP, but still it strongly changes what warlocks are
@@aldoushuxley5953 I've never seen a main warlock dip sorc, only the other way around, so it's never come up. If someone did take warlock with a sorc dip I'd have to look again at how I have it work. But I don't think that's a very popular multiclass style so I doubt it'll come up much.
So who else thinks other subclasses need origin spells as well? Imagine Storm Sorcerer with Call Lightening as a free spell known? Or Lightening Lure and Witch Bolt?
In no small way I believe most of the classes need a re-write to square them with Tasha's, both in language and power levels. (Like the Aberrant and Clockwork bonus spells.)
@@paulh5984 Well, I do not know about huge reworks, but making sure all Sorcerer and Ranger subclasses get bonus spells would seem to be an easy fix. Allowing Monks subclasses to use there special abilities once before needing to spend Ki would also be easy.
Yup, one homebrew I have on my games is giving them some extra spells, you dont even have to think really hard, the way I do it is: Divine Soul - Get the spells from Celestial Warlock Shadow - Get the spells from Death Cleric Storm - Get the spells from Tempest Cleric Wild Magic - Get 2 random Wizard spells for each spell level, can reroll at the end of a long rest. Draconic - Get 2 spells that do damage of the type of your Draconic ancestry, if there aren't 2 suitable spells (not a lot of spells do Acid damage), then fill it up with Wizard evocation spells.
Something to keep in mind is how well Sorc works with the tight 5e action economy. Being able to Quicken and then something else is quite good, even if it's just dodge, cast blade ward, or move more. Imposing disadvantage on STs is really good - even if monsters have legendary resistance, you can force them to burn off their 3 auto-saves. Clockwork canceling magic resistance and then imposing a disadvantage on a ST - wow. With new feats - and lots of meta options - Sorcs are much more flexible. With clockwork you get Wall of Force - just missing things like Forcecage and a few other great high lvl wiz spells (but you can downtime-cast several of them, like sim, with Wish). With even one level of warlock and EB + agonizing blast (via feat, or 2 lvls of lock for the invo), you can quick a useful spell - and then toss hard-hitting EBs on top of that. Some campaigns have a longer schedule of fights in a day. In AL, understanding how to deal w/ the action economy and few fights per day is key. Sorcs tend to shine, esp clock and abh.
The Aberrant Mind Sorcerer can switch a spell out for Gift of Alacrity. Then, if you choose custom lineage, you can select Telekinetic rather than Fey-Touched.
I want to see an eloquence bard build start with a one level dip in aberrant mind for the shield, mage armor and better damage cantrip, then use the super persuasion and deception with the long distance telepathy. They talk a vendor out of an apple and climb a clock tower in the middle of town, and procedue to persuade and deceive everyone they can see telepathically to cause either a perfect day, or maximum chaos. While they sit and chew the apple.
@@andrecosta8680 eloquence bard gives you a minimum 10 on persuai and deceive checks. Aberrant mind at lvl 1 gives you telepathy. The ability to persuade people without others noticing is neat.
I mostly agree with the ratings, although I would like to point out that shadow is actually very good if you do a Shadow sorcerer hexblade multiclass. Shadow sorcerer's perma advantage combined with Hexblade's curse and multi-ray spells (Eldritch Blast or my favourite: scorching ray) deal very good damage super reliably. The best part is that you don't need to use up a valuable invocation to get the perma advantage, meaning you can pick up stuff like repelling blast for your Eldritch blast. As a result you get a lot of versatility: Will you use your concentration to grant yourself perma advantage, make yourself very difficult to kill and dish out a ton of damage while also pushing enemies around, or will you use your concentration to cast WEB and then push opponents into it with repelling blast?
Spirit Guardians on a pure sorcerer is not a good spell. The 15' radius that centers on you is too close for an unarmored and low hit point character that needs to maintain concentration. I have never selected it with my Divine Soul Sorcerers. With a multi-class into a Paladin then yes a great spell.
Yes, high AC is a necessity to get any value out of Spirit Guardians. It's also good on a sorclock (hexblade), as apart from giving decent base AC (18, 23 with shield), one of the invocations grants a pull effect to EB which allows an additional trigger of Spirit Guardian damage.
I still think it's a good choice. Would I take it over hypnotic pattern? Probably not. But you are probably preparing shield and mage armor anyway. You could use mirror image and or the dodge action. Even if you take a hit you are proficient in Constitution saves. Also spirit guardians scales really well. That is something a sorcerer should be looking for.
Mostly on the same page with the subclass options. All the older ones could use origin spells, but only the draconic, wild and storm might need additional help or redesigning beyond that. I do however think the core class still needs more metamagic choices spread across all levels. It is ridiculous that you have 2 at level 3 and only gain a third at level 10. It's an illusion of choice that isn't really much of a choice at all because of metamagics like twinned, subtle and quicken ruling the pack. We also add a half sp recovery once per long rest which might in some ways be pushing it, but I think it has the positive of making sorc a stronger solo class due to a bit of added scaling based on your sorc level specifically.
While the draconic subclass isn't as good as the new ones, I used it back before Xanathar's. A good workaround the resistance to elements was taking Elemental Adept: I was delighted when the DM said that a monster was resistant to fire and I was like "not MY fire ;D". Between the Charisma mod and that feat, the minimum damage was pretty good! but I wish other elements had good interesting spells, because at the time Fire was like the most optimized in terms of damage. Not sure how it lands in terms of optimization, but I had no problem dealing lots of damage in that game. The only campaign my group managed to finish, the one I had the most fun, and the one where I played a spellcaster for the first time, lol.
The aberrant mind sorcerer’s level 6 ability is bonkers. You get a discounted spell, upgraded to subtle, can slap on metamagic because technically you didn’t augment it already, and an enormous amount of flexibility to use spells due to casting with a pool of sorcery points, not your spell slots.
Empowered Spell might not be that useful by the law of averages but it’s big benefit, to me, is a chance to take away a feel bad moment of casting a big damage spell and rolling just terribly below average. Similarly you’re not going to use it if you roll just okay so average might not be the best way to look at it. So I think those things should be taken into account.
I love the sorcerer class! And I agree with this list. I very much wish that they'd given all subclasses the extra spells feature, as now if you play anything not from Tasha's you're hindering your character by so much
I've never played a Sorcerer, but have seen a few in play, mostly as DM. The limited spells really seems like an issue. They're missing some spells that really would be good fits for them, such as Bigby's Hand, which has a lot of flexibility. WotC seems to have missed some great potential themes for sorcerers, too: No telekinetic/force sorcerer, for instance. The other big design problem I find with Sorcerers is how much they don't benefit from Short Rests. This means that the Sorcerer is quite often the cause of "Five Minute Workday" problems.
I have a homebrew variant rule for divine soul that is essentially aberrant mind/clockwork soul but you pick a cleric domain when you select divine soul, get its domain spells like you would get the bonus spells for AM and CS and can swap them for enchantment/evocation school spells.
Clockwork is so good mechanically but so terrible in terms of lore. It just feels counterintuitive. This sort of magic fits better with a learned source rather than one that come from bloodline.
@@kibbo86 yea I don't buy into any of that kind of garbage. People cant breed with a chimp let alone another kind of being altogether. Breeding with Elves and Orcs is a stretch but I can accept it in a fantasy setting. Mixing with Dragons, genies, demons, just breaks any semblance of verisimilitude. Mixing with a Modron would be even worse because they aren't even biological creatures. I always change the lore behind any sorcerer I make for this reason.
About Bend Luck for Wild magic Sorcerers. It changes a roll by, on average, 2.5. Put into context, Advantage/disadvantage changes the DC by an average of 3 ( by 5 if the DC is around 15, by 1 if the DC is around 5 or around 25).
Been watching different Ranking videos on dnd and it is amazing how different people rank the subclasses. So I ask you, what am I supposed to do now? Form an opinion of my own? I haven't done that in years ...
This series has been great! Back when I had first read the rules for 5e I made the mistake of believing that you could quicken a spell with your bonus action and then cast another spell with your action. It made me highly over rate the Sorcerer.
You can do that. It just can't be a leveled spell with Bonus Action and a leveled spell in the same turn. Any spell cast as a bonus action then creates the restriction of only being able to cast a cantrip using your normal action.
My roommate is running me through a solo campaign with me playing two characters. The talker is a Aberrant Mind/Gene Warlock with a focus on politics. His muscle is a Soulknife/Gene Warlock with the ability to sneak into anywhere and never carry a weapon or armour. Political campaigns are fun as all get out
Me: I forgot Storm Sorcerer existed. Treantmonk: This one was originally printed in the sword coast adventurer's guide and if there is one thing I've learned, that's not a good sign. Me: Yeah....
Something fun about the Hound of Ill Omen is that nothing says you can only have one up at a time, so if you really want to you can bring one out every turn and action economy the enemy to death.
Frankly, I think that bonus spell tables similar to those of the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul sorcerers should be added to *EVERY* sorcerer subclass. Because Cris is absolutely right; lack of versatility is the bane of the sorcerer. Just imagine if, say, the Divine Soul sorcerer could choose one cleric Domain spell list ... and then switch them out for any cleric spell ... or if the Wild Magic sorcerer automatically got spells like Chaos Bolt, Mirror Image, Confusion and Polymorph, and then could trade them out for any Enchantment or Illusion spell. I think that would make essentially every sorcerer subclass A-tier ... and without making any of them OP. Frankly, I consider most sorcerer subclass abilities subpar anyway, and adding a little spell versatility to this class is just what it needs. And yes, I know I'm ranting about home brewed stuff, and that's not what this channel is about. But I get so tired of seeing the idiotic and BASIC design flaws in 5E, especially the power discrepancies between base classes, that it just drives me to distraction. (I'm also working on a home brew monk that isn't utter trash, based on the open hand damage table from 1E ... and on either doubling ki points or adding options that DON'T cost ki ... haven't made a decision on that yet ... but I've already redesigned the Way of Four Elements to give it spell slots) ;)
I haven’t played with many monks, but at my lvl 21 one shot, I found it to be a total stun bot. I’d sure make some options free, but maybe up the cost of stun tbh. If u are willing to share your work, I’d love to se it. Working on the WM sorcerer myself
@@lazydk2654 One of the things I like best about the 1E monk as opposed to 5E (and something that actually makes sense if you've watched Cris's videos on the problems with the class) is that any time the monk beats the enemy AC by 5 or more it stuns automatically, no saving throw, for 1d6 rounds. I'm seriously considering adapting this mechanic (I don't like the "1d6 rounds" thing; too much work for the DM) while also allowing the spending of ki to allow the standard stun mechanic (i.e., CON save, lasts until end of your next turn) whenever you hit but don't reach the "stun threshold." Other than this, my changes (at this point; it's currently a WIP) would mostly involve allowing the monk to use any armors it gains proficiency in without penalty (or perhaps just giving it light armor proficiency) and, again, changing the martial arts damage die to both assist the monk at its lowest levels and more accurately reflect the deadliness the 1E monk could attain. Here is my table as currently developed: Level 1: 1d6 (avg 3.5 + DEX mod) Level 3: 2d4 (avg 5) Level 5: 1d10 (avg 5.5) Level 7: 2d6 (avg 6.5) Level 9: 3d4 (avg 7.5) Level 11: 4d4 (avg 10) Level 14: 5d4 (avg 12.5) Level 15: 6d4 (avg 15) Level 16: 5d6 (avg 17.5) Level 17: 8d4 (avg 20) The 1E monk also added +1/2 point of damage to weapon attacks per monk level, but I believe that, with the above table and the monk rules as they stand, adding that to the monk would actually make it OP. I'd also considered just giving the monk extra attacks similar to the fighters', but decided that its current mechanic is okay; instead, I'm just doubling its ki points. I *AM* considering making any bonus attacks part of the Attack action instead of costing a bonus action, however.
@@morganpetros9635 hmm I don’t know if I like buffing it that much. While treatmonk doesn’t think highly of the monk, as far as I can discern, it’s main use is as a stunbot. It has low damage, high cc, high mobility. while that doesn’t seem particularly good in itself, having someone else to do the dps, makes it better. I don’t like the idea of increasing both the ability to stun and the damage. And your scaling with flurry of blows seems to do that. While that does consume a lot of Ki, battles tend to be short in d&d. Now granted a longer fight where the monk burns everything fast, he’ll be but a meat shield very quickly. Regarding the armour, it’s not game breaking, but also not very thematically fitting. I don’t know whether he really needs it. And when the monk starts stunning, his AC becomes less important. Also the monks main stats; dex and wis are some of the primary saves, meaning the monk doesn’t have and hard weaknesses in his defences. It’s like a Leona from LoL, and she’s always viable. Also: I started with 5e in 2016, so I’m not familiar with 1e stuff, but u describe it well.
@@shawnpeterson2523 Nah. The way to avoid that is, first, give every Origin Spell list a theme For example Draconic Bloodline sorcerers could get a lot of spells that imitate what dragons can do (so ... Breath Weapon, Fly, See Invisibility, Legend Lore, etc.) while Storm sorcerers would get a lot of Fog Cloud, Gust of Wind, Levitate, Sleet Storm, Storm Sphere, Watery Sphere, etc. Then you just make sure the two schools of magic they can choose from are different for each subclass. For example for the Shadow sorcerer I've chosen Illusion and Necromancy as schools they can replace their spells from, whereas with Wild Magic I chose Enchantment and Transmutation ... all while making certain there were useful spells of other schools in each subclass spell list (for example, Shadow Sorcerers as I've built them get Pass Without Trace rather than Invisibility as a 2nd-level spell). This allows for a good and versatile spell list for each subclass.
I actually think aberrant mind gets more at lvl 6 than clockwork. Casting some of your meaner spells without components or slots is absolutely crazy to me
You are still technically using slots, or rather, you are effectively consuming the same amount of resources either way. 4 sorcery points is equivalent to a 4th level spell slot.
@@Sporrik Not at all. In the first place, you cannot make a 4th level spell slot out of 4 sorcery points. You _could_ go the other direction, but you have a base pool of sorcery points to work from first. Secondly, you are casting it with the equivalent of Subtle Spell (1 sorcery point), _with the option_ to tack on another metamagic (priceless).
Aberrant mind pretty clearly gets more than clockwork at level 6. Psionic Sorcery PLUS Psychic Defenses is waaaaay better than Bastion of Law. Did someone say otherwise?
@@chrislieu6757 no one said otherwise. This is an argument as to why I think they scale better than clockwork or at least stay stronger for a few lvls Bastion + agathys is too good though, I would know my abjurer wizard has armor of agathys
@@Sporrik No it isn't. A 4th level slot is equal to 4 sorcery points. But it costs MORE than 4 sorcery points to make a 4th level slot. Plus the slot-> point transfer means you can burn 3 level 1 slots, and a level 2 slot, and then cast Synaptic static. Burning all your slots into points means you could get 4-6 castings of the fifth level spell, that no one else at that level could do except a warlock with plenty of short rests. I've been in plenty of game where the "adventuring day" ended up taking less than 10 rounds of combat total.
Draconic Bloodline - basically, you've got Mage Armor on 24-7-365, and extra hp. Granted, the need to spend a point for resistance sucks..... maybe if the resistance was Permanent and it was Immunity that needed the point..... might be worth it. Played one, and had a couple of cool moments, distracting an innkeeper and then lying to some guards about why I wanted to go into an alley...... piece of advice, don't drink a 1.5 liter bottle of pop before the NPC Guard Captain asks such questions, as that's a valid reason to head into such areas, providing that the guard didn't spot you first, and ask twenty questions that go in a circular path, until they give up and say - "clearly a drunk idiot."
Hmm. My architect-themed spellcaster has been planned as a bard thus far, however... clockwork sorceror could be a strong possibility. And it fits quite nicely thematically. The main problem with a wacky character like that is always trying to stuff things from several spell lists on to one individual, and the higher the spell levels the more difficult it gets. And building stuff tends to skew exactly in that direction. Almost makes the bard's magical secrets completely essential. However I think clockwork's worth a look, I have overlooked it. Looked at divine soul, but that wasn't quite enough. Clockwork might be; it's got that transmutation thing going. I mean I could just as easily give her a sidekick to fill in a lot of the gaps (and probably will). Not after level five spells, though.
I would rank Divine Soul a little higher. You can attack with spiritual weapon every round as a bonus action and add a strong full action spell attack.
Out of the two new sorcs from Tasha's, Aberrant Mind is far superior for anyone that is a super slick roleplayer and likes to do devious, scary things. Telepathy and subtle casting are for more creativity-friendly mechanics than canceling out disadvantage and reducing damage. I love the bonus spell list you can build with clockwork, but I think AM has way more style and panache.
The way I've always seen Wild Magic Surge and Tides of Chaos is that it's not really the dm's choice when to trigger Wild Magic but that they explicitly have the ability to veto it. So as I'd see it tides of chaos will always recharge unless the dm doesn't want wild magic to happen. Although how they'll rule it obviously still depend on the dm, so yeah it's still tricky.
I have never played with a wild magic sorcerer, but I will say it looks suboptimal but very fun, and I rarely say that. Fun as long as you don't care too much about your character. Also great video!!
Interesting, I thought you were going to rip into Bastion of Law, as I've always seen that ability as garbage. 5 sorcery points for what averages to 22.5 damage reduction? It costs an action, though you can cast it once for the day, but will you ever use it unless you can prep for a fight? And even then would you? The amount of meta magic you're sacrificing for at best 40 dr and at worst 5 dr is just not worth it. I feel like this is identical to your monk rants with the linked resource pools to the primary class feature, but it isn't being viewed quite the same. Theoretically as a clockwork, you'll have polymorph, which you can then twin (for 4 points) giving far more than the theoretical maximum 40 protection and it is far more versatile. Or you could just turn those points into another one of your amazing spells, since the spells available are fantastic and 5 points = a 3rd level. Would you rather have (avg) 22.5 DR or another haste/counterspell/fireball? I don't know if I'd ever use this feature outside of extremely niche circumstances.
Right? At least monks get all of their points back on a short rest. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills whenever people rave about clockwork. Bastion of Law does not provide good value for its price. A waste of points and feature space -also an entire action if you don't dump a significant number of your points ahead of time. -It seems like a trap feature imo. And then all of that subclass's features [besides the expanded spell list and the proficiency capped level 1 feature] use more of your points if you want to use them more than once per long rest. They might as well include a text box advising that you avoid metamagics with higher than 1 point costs.
Fantastic breakdown man, thanks. Its good to see the change in design philosophy as they've gone along, a lot of the early subclasses feel too conservative.
Have you ever thought about making a divine soul dedicated healer? I particularly think he's much better than a Cleric, after all he can Twin spells, Quicken spells, cast spells without taking a counter and extend the duration of Aid, by exemple, which you can cast before every long rest, in addition to having the arcane spells to have more versatility, defenses, etc. And if you do a 1 level dip with the peace cleric you can still wear armor, shield and use Emboldening Bound And if your GM is generous enough to give you a Shard Earth... you'll be incredibly hard to kill. Or the Shard Good, to spam THP. Or any other, after all they are all incredibly useful
Tbh the free disengage and extra movement from the storm sorcerers 1st level ability is fantastic. It frees up most of the teleport spells you may waste your slots on, and gives you useful escape options in most environments other than flat ground. I think you ranked it a little low. Other than that, great video as always chris.
Plus I don’t think he mentioned that the sixth level feature gives you resistance to thunder and lightning, and while it the most common damage types that’s not half bad imo.
Rewatching Sorcerer and Warlock rankings to decide which spellcasting class I want to play next. Really leaning toward Daolock, but might be convinced to multiclass
Before this list was posted, I had Clockwork somewhere between Eloquence Bard and Watchers Paladin, strong A. Aberrant as a mid-B, where Divine finished. I keep coming back to the Sorcerer being middling otherwise. So if I get more spells known, but not spells known in optimal schools (Clockwork), then it's not really as big a boost as it seems. Ends up somewhere around "good" overall. Not one of the best classes in the game. But I understand that this is subjective and I respect your take on it. For the record, I expect Hexblade, War Magic and Divination as the remaining A classes. Chronurgy as the only S tier. Reason for the Wizard rankings: This is tier 1 and tier 2 mostly. This has to cap the Wizard for relative effectiveness. Otherwise, the weaknesses of the classes we know to exist, especially for pure casters, are glossed over. Looking forward to it.
My War Cleric 8 is doing a 3 Lvl dip into Sorc to pick up Shield, Absorb Elements, Feather Fall and Misty Step. Picking Twinned Spell and Distant Spell as meta-magics.
Extending Summon Celestial for two hours is worth one's concentration as the warrior gets to continually regain temp HP for himself and his allies on every attack. The Divine Soul can keep it healed if necessary and is one of the best go-to spells, especially if you are using the spell point variant rule.
Let's be blunt, 'Wizards' of the Coast are too scared of sorcerers being good to ever really give them parity with aforesaid 'Wizards'. The core class was crap number of spells known, a lot of the metamagics are not worth it and better as a dip than as a full class. Gimme the 3.5 and PF versions instead.
I made predictions of where i thought you would rank each subclass before each video - and on this one i got quite lucky :D for all sorcs i was a total of 3 spots off :D I ranked shadow behind forge Aberrant ahead of Eloquence and divine ahead of stars.
Woohoo, my favorite caster is here! Having an Achilles' Heel of few spells known, despite being as dependent on their spells as the wizard (i.e. the class's entire identity), really stings. BUT that is also why Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul are so amazing, for pulling the sorcerer up to be properly neck-to-neck with the wizard. I just wish WotC would give the same love to the older sorcerer subclasses, but I guess they're not called Sorcerers of the Coast... As always, my tiers are bumped up one letter to make more aesthetic sense (S becomes SS, A becomes S etc.). It was nice to see even the older sorcerers get some recognition for the sheer power of the Arcane Spell List, even surprisingly so for the most barren subclasses. Next week, we see the weirdest caster. SS: Twilight, Peace, Moon S: CLOCKWORK SOUL, Shepard, Eloquence, ABERRANT MIND, Watchers, Conquest, Vengeance, Echo Knight, Gloom Stalker A: Trickery, Forge, Lore, Valor, Redemption, Glamour, Creation, Ancients, Devotion, Rune Knight, Wildfire, Stars, DIVINE SOUL, Glory, Light, Arcana, Oathbteaker, Crown, SHADOW SORCERER, Armorer, Battle Smith, Battlemaster B: Tempest, Order, Life, Swords, Spirits, Spores, Swarmkeeper, Fey Wanderer, Death, Knowledge, Grave, DRACONIC, Whispers, Nature, War, Land, Zealot, Dream, WILD MAGIC, Arcane Trickster, Soul Knife, STORM SOUL, Artillerist, Beastmaster2, Samurai, Eldritch Knight, Psi Warrior, Ancestral Guardian, Totem Warrior, Phantom Walker, Horizon Walker C: Monster Slayer, Hunter, Mercy, Swashbuckler, Arcane Archer, Beast, Storm Herald, Cavalier, Scout, Purple Dragon Knight, Champion D: Assassin, Wild Magic Barbarian, Thief, Mastermind, Shadow Monk, Long Death, Berserker, Battlerager, Inquisitive, Kensei, Open Hand, Beastmaster1 F: Alchemist, Drunken Fist, Astral Self, Four Elements, Sun Soul
Wizards are just jealous that grandpa Cthulhu didn’t give them any presents. Warlocks can get a radical pet, a pocket knife, a lucky charm, or a book along with (arguably) the best cantrip in the game. Wizards have to make their own book and they don’t even have any cool flavor or built-in story elements: “Oh, your teacher is gone, you dropped out of wizard school, or you’re a self taught spell caster? That’s neat... I can shoot lasers out of my face because I sold my immortal soul to a talking horse.”
Sorcerer is weird like that, because while that's true, Clockwork is probably the strongest caster in the game in Tiers 1 and 2. The added spells on a spontaneous caster do a lot of work, just for reference, a level 10 Sorcerer will have 21 "prepared" spells, a level 10 Wizard with 20 Int will have 15 prepared spells. Of course, Wizards know more spells and have ritual casting, but I think metamagic is better than that.
A Sorcerer can effectively shut down any Wizard at high levels as they can subtle cast their spells and subtle cast Counterspell not letting the Wizard get off any spells (and remember they can reroll Counterspells ability check as well. Subtle spell is only 1 point and the fight is over before depleting their sorcery points.
Psionic Sorcery is even better than you stated because the exchange rate is very favorable. It costs 4 points to cast a 4th level psionic sorcery spell, but you can trade a 4th level spell for 6 points! Cast your spell with free subtle, no material components, and you get change back.
liquidating a spell slot only recovers sorcery points equal to its level unfortunately, so regain 4 points for a 4th level slot. Psionic casting is good for spamming spells but it costs you your resource for metamagic which is usually the main incentive for playing a sorcerer. -Psionic spamming your 1st level spells and maybe second level can be pretty potent though -casually throw around hex/charm person in social scenarios for 1 point, or twinned dissonant whispers for 2 points and no slots used sound good to me!
When I think about using metamagic with a different class I like to use it with paladin and quicken the bless spell on the first round of combat it seems like a little thing but it's really cool
Thanks to tashas which extended the clerics spell-list a Divine Soul with the Extended Spell can pick aura of vitality to heal 40d6 in two minutes, with the cost of a 3rd-lvl and 1 Sorcery Point. I think that is a lot of potential hp. Still doesn't solve the problem with the spells know. As well as the lvl 6 feature
Hound of ill Omen. 6 level feature. No concentration summoning bonus action that still allows a spell/action. Disadvantage on saving throws. These tiers are focused on lower levels? This feature is great at higher levels as well with better spells. This is for "Optimizer"? MM Adept Subtle/Distance/Quicken? Silvery Barbs,Mind Sliver etc. Can summon multiple at once? Can enhance the hound with casting other spells on it. S Tier
They could boost the PHB and xanathar option which have great flavor so easily: Give them all the abberant mind spell list template. 2 extra spell knows per level and 1 extra cantrip. Then those spell can be cast using sorcerer point (1 sorcerer point per spell level) and if they do they gain small extra bonus. So Dragon sorcerer would be able to choose from evocation and conjuration and if they used sorcerer point they can change the damage type of the spell into their dragon ancestry elemental type. I woud even add teh Fizban gem dragon option here. Wild: illusion and enchantment and would give a free wild magic surge roll Shadow: evocation and illusion. if the spell emit light, the bright light portion is replace by magical darkness but at 1/4th the radius and the sorcerer can see throught this darkness. Storm sorcerer: chose between evocation and transmutation. and the damage type can be switch to lightning or thunder Divine: choose any cleric spell (instead of from 2 school) nd the spell receive the benefit of the distant metamagic but it doesn't coutn as a metamagic Their sorcerer is Kinda of fix, if font of magic would allow to recover a number of sorcerer point = to your profiency bonus on short rest, then create a brand new cap stone abilities, sorcerer would be really interesting and would compare with wizard (but til lack the spell list)
As a DM for a Wild Magic Sorcerer, I just say that Tides of Chaos always procs on the next level spell. It's not something I ever have to keep track of at that point. The player does. Easy fix
Wild Magic should be a D, for one huge reason. It discourages non-combat casting. MANY of the Wild Magic table results stop being "mostly good" in a delicate social situation. If a Sorcerer casts some kind of enchantment or other support spell while trying to make an important social interaction with an NPC, accidentally pulls the Magic Missile effect, and suddenly King Steve has taken magic missiles to the face, the campaign may be over on the spot, unless King Steve is a very understanding soul, with blind bodyguards. So most Wild Magic Sorcerers are just going to stop casting spells out of combat entirely, and do so more likely in more delicate noncombat interactions, which is where that magic wants to be used in the first place, which essentially guts the entire magic utility wing of the caster, which is DEFINATELY worse than a subclassless sorcerer. It's fun, oh lordy is it fun, especially if the DM has you pulling wild magic often, but, it brings up the whole "If your car has a 90% chance of working as normal, a 5% chance of teleporting you to work instantly, and a 5% chance of exploding the moment you put the key in the ignition, you stop using your car" argument.
The Feywild Shard solves a lot of Wild Magic's problems. It puts it in the hands of the player, makes it more likely when you want it to be, though it doesn't entirely remove the "blow up the throneroom" situation as you describe.
ב"ה So all player's handbook subclasses are C, All Xanathar are B and tasha's sorcerers are A. The improvment with time is literaly new book going for next tier each time.
I think that the 1st level Storm Sorcerer feature is pretty underrated. People evaluate it just thinking about the "without provoking an opportunity attack" thing, so they think that the only value is to disengage but nothing could be more wrong, it's a really good mobility feature that permise you to position yourself better during a fight, is a flying movement so you can use it to do interesting things that normally you can't do, is a bonus action so you will use it every time you cast a spell of 1st level or more, is good to position yourself before the cast of some cone or line area of effect with better accuracy and for sure is a disengage that you can use without wasting your action or without wasting any spell slot in a teleport spell, and usually this disengage permise you to gain enough speed to become unaccessible to the enemy on the next round. On a Storm Sorcerer i will heavily consider to take Tabaxi as race, because his "Feline Agility" works pretty well with the "Tempestuous magic" feature and with the 6th level feature too, to gain that extra mobility that permise you to position yourself well or to disengage hardly without the need to waste a slot on something like misty step.
On a business note: Honest to Gygax, your use for Dscryb text in your videos is a better advertisement than any dedicated ad could be. It follows the show don't tell rule. You are directly showing your viewers the benefit of using the boxed text on offer, and I'm getting a little closer to paying for a sub each time. I'm the kind of weirdo to notice these things.
Wild magic sorcerer is one of the few subclasses that I actually find annoying to play with as a party member. Not really because of the possibility to kill your party, although that can be really annoying, but because of how much they tend to slow down the game.
A quick and dirty house rule for non Aberrant Minds or clockwork souls: 1 additional known spell per spell level from 1st - 5th. Brings the other subclasses closer to Aberrant Mind and Clockwork.
Tides of Chaos could use some clarification to make using it desirable (basically take it out of the DMs hand when to make them roll) and the Storm Sorcerer could be tweaked to give it's benefits when they use all spells (not just thunder and lightning spells) and they'd be so much better by just adding like 5 words between the two subclasses combined.
You have no idea how many times the GM forgot that my divine sorcerer still had Inflict wounds from level 1. He tought it to be a good idea to put someone in melee with mu character; he ended up regretting it every time.
The funny thing is that Clockwork Sorcerer's "Restore Balance" ability makes things *more* chaotic rather than less. Advantage/Disadvantage are more likely to give respectively better/worse results, while pure roll can give any, and therefore is more chaotic.
Advantage and disadvantage make your chance of getting a median roll WORSE, since your choosing one of the options. Whereas a flat roll has an equal chance of it being any number on the die.
@@adamkaris Why median is relevant here? I don't see how low chances of getting it make things more orderly. "Order" means predictability, and it's much easier to predict what result will be on the roll with advantage/disadvantage.
You know what it is? At the end of the Day TMT is a fan. Whatever his experience is, it involves him loving the Wizard like a child loves a super hero. It's not rational, it lacks perspective but it's childlike and innocent. No Spider Man is not more Powerful Than Super man but try convincing a 4 year old Spidey fan otherwise. He's given us a lot of fun videos and thoughts but is far more of a defendant of The Wizard than an Optimizer of the Sorcerer. It's why he misses with the class so badly. I still like his thoughts and understand why he is lost here.
That makes total sense. It's why he keeps saying Wizards know more spells and have bigger lists in place of all the powerful things the Sorcerer can do. (I still wanna see the Librarian Slayer build... Sorcerer with counter spell and heighten..Love that idea. Maybe TMT will do it.)
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Also, when I discussed spending 7 sorcery points to "recover" a 5th level spell slot, I meant "gain" a 5th level spell slot.
I think with Warlock you will have to evaluate each subclass with each pact option before making a video showing the best patron + best pact combo, to determine the rank.
Gl & hf.
Thanks for these lists, Chris. As for the Wild Magic subclass, can we agree that it never was about optimization but for adding an aspect of luck and risk to sorcerers akin to the rogue and bard.
I'll
TIDES OF CHAOS:
"You can gain advantage on a d20 roll!"
"That's good!"
"But it's only once per long rest."
"Oh, that's bad."
"But you can potentially get it multiple times before a long rest!"
"That's good!"
"But it depends on your DM remembering you have it."
"That can be bad."
"But if they do remember, you get more uses just by casting spells!"
"That's pretty good!"
"But then you have to roll on the Wild Magic Surge table."
"..."
"That's sometimes bad, sometimes good, and mostly neither."
"Can I go now?"
That's the charm of Wild Magic Sorcerer.
I have played wild magic sorc. I pretty much insisted on reset tides of chaos and rolling on wild magic. You also have a chance to roll on wild magic if you haven't used it.
If you're at a table where he doesn't always have you reset tides as much as you want, you need to leave or play a different class. You're playing very gimp char with no features if you're not using the wild magic table. With the wild magic table, it is potentially the most powerful caster at a table since most of the options are good or neutral, and if you take tiefling for fire resistance or learn to distance yourself 20 feet before casting, or don't use tides if you don't want to risk it, and if you take subtle spell, and if you tell your party about the self polymorph potions (plant, etc), you can avoid most of the negative options.
I would certainly homebrew this: Rolling yet another dice to check whether a Wild Surge appears makes perfect sense for such an erratic class.
- Unless, of course, the DM completely insists.^^
Sorcerers do not get enough love especially post Tasha's.
Would it break the game to give all the other sorcerer subclasses extra spells like Aberrent Mind or Clockwork have?
What would your lists look like?
I would expect like divine souls.
PHB subclasses could probably get a full list. I love the idea of slapping every rng spell into a list for Wild Magic (culminating in Reincarnate, of course)
no it would not break the game. They bloody need it
I think only Storm and Draconic are the only ones that really need it.
Storm I would have a list similar to Tempest cleric.
Draconic would work like Genie warlock, with 5 set spells and 5 based off of your dragon type.
Wild Magic I’m not sure about. It has a lot going on at 1st level with wild surges (what it needs is some player control).
Divine Soul and Shadow are already very strong right out of the gate, even without the extended spells. I think adding the extra spells would almost push them into S tier.
I hope the PHB survey was aimed to address that question. Draconic Sorcerer is SUPER dated at this point.
I absolutely hate when they "fix" a class having weak subclasses by introducing new ones which are clearly just better. Bloody fix the original ones!
Beast master rangers got such a treatment, after all.
The pet control rules are really good now. I'm almost waiting for "companion" subclasses for other classes
Well, the problem now is, which pet control rules? There are different rules for familiars, beast master companions, Conjure-spell minions, Summon-spell minions, Wildfire spirits, and probably a couple other types. The newer ones are better, if you can remember all their little differences from the older ones. I suppose if I were running a came I would house-rull the lot of them to all behave the same unless there were very good reasons not to.
But, this is the sorcerer video, and sorcerers don't get summons, so :-P
but then you get one less subclass. it tskes time and space to print this.
draconic might suck but id rather have two options rather than one with shadow
because alternative is just getting better draconic.
I would like a fix on the wild magic where you run more for the table and maybe can roll for a random damage type
Honestly, the Sorcerer could've easily gotten their Level 14 and 18 abilities earlier on level 10 and 14... its just silly to have 8 levels between a sub-class feature gain...
While we're talking about delayed features, can I take a moment to complain about how Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster have to wait until 13th heckin level to get their 3rd level spells? There's a reason 3rd level spells are the game changer for casters, so you don't feel like a proper gish until after your 2nd extra attack. Until then, most of your spells feel restricted to simple utility. I don't think I used any spells other than Shield and upcast Fog Cloud (Because our Sorcerer never picked anything except damage spells. Not even Shield.)
@@greycat5383 Because if Eldritch Knight was a half-caster than there would be no point in playing something like Battle Smith/Armorer.
The existance of Bladesingers (which is a mistake) already kinda does that, don't need to dunk on Artificers even more.
@@Loeher @João Ralha There already isn't much reason to play an Artificer, except for Multiclassing. It's a very niche class, with its strengths largely campaign dependent. Moreover, their spells are a mishmash of Cleric/Wizard spells, nothing truly used by the classic spellsword players look for. And if we go by the argument that Bladesinger was a mistake, that STILL doesn't leave us with a proper spellsword character, let alone a half-caster.
As for Eldritch Knight, they're already restricted to Abjuration and Evocation. Sure, they FINALLY get Fireball at 13th level, which might arguably make them better at AoE than a Paladin, but a Paladin almost certainly beats them in single target damage, and better sells the concept of spells>melee power. I suppose you could run an Eldritch Knight fully into melee dps, but then you're probably using your extra attacks over war magic, which means you aren't even really a spellsword anymore.
There simply isn't a Paladin equivalent martial caster class, and an Eldritch Knight getting half-casting hardly breaks the game, if at all.
@@greycat5383 in case you're interested, I'm nearly finished with a homebrew class that I created mainly to fill that gap left beside the paladin. It's an elemental 1/2 caster with the spellcasting system of a warlock, just no patron. I'd gladly share it with anyone who might review or try it
Aura of Vitality + Extended Spell is the best healing boost you can get for 1 sorcery point
Oh wow, I didn't consider this one, you are absolutely right!
It's a Paladin spell, so it's level 9, unless you go 5 levels into Twilight Cleric for some reason. Also, spending one of your metamagic options on extend spell isn't the best idea imo.
That said, A twilight Cleric picking Metamagic Adept might just do the trick.....
@@prixiusnecrolance8531 Ah, but with Tasha it's on the Cleric list now as well, perfect for a divine soul. Or a bard with magical secrets and a feat to get metamagic. Or a cleric with the feat. plenty options to get it at level 5. And even if you get it at level 10, it's still insanely strong even then.
@@MarcLucksch I always forget Tasha exists. Thank you for the information!
@@prixiusnecrolance8531 I forget Tasha on purpose..
Subtle Spell is honestly one of the best metamagics in the game.
Counterspell that can't be countered is really good but it goes deeper than that. As long as you aren't casting something like fireball were the spell effect comes from you, the enemy has no way of knowing you're the one who cast it. Good use of subtle spell or the 6 level feature of Aberrant Mind means that the aggro you draw from enemies is incredibly reduced. Why attack the weirdo hiding in the background when a big barbarian is slamming your face in all the while spell effects are being flung at you from seemingly nowhere.
Add onto that your good charisma, try to deceive your enemies on occasion. Say "Thank goodness our Paladin's got that magic item to cancel out enemy magic, they sure saved us!" and more aggro has been taken away from you and onto the people who can take the damage.
Social encounters are made simple with subtle suggestions, buff allies while not giving the enemies the idea you've hasted your ally until it's too late, possibilities are endless and it all costs 1 sorcery point!
The social encounters alone are so great with subtle spell. So many times as a non-sorc I've wanted to cast something but I'm worried about who would see or hear it occurring.
Distant Spell also makes Counterspell a lot more potent.
@@crimfan Can't use it for counterspell since the spell's trigger is a spell being cast within 60ft around you.
You can't increase the range because the trigger can't be increased
@@Zepherus14 Good point, I was misremembering an application of Distant Spell which prevented a Counterspell. It lets you make a lot of 60' range spells safe from being countered.
@@crimfan Now that IS a good use for it, I'll definitely give you that
You’ve been doing this for so long, I’m surprised Wizards hasn’t hired you to balance out their classes.
I sometimes seriously wonder if wizards even play dnd or just comes up with stuff. The clip of Todd Kendrick (I think) not knowing about concentration is so telling about who wizards hires to work on their game.
Although Chris may or may not be interested in game design I think wizards could benefit from having a play test team like they do in magic where they take a group of players who know their sh*t and make them play the new subclasses before releasing them.
Because they are ashamed of their classes for fifth edition. Like lets be honest how terrible they balanced this. Why why why why
I was honestly going to say something along the same lines... I completely agree
@@magnuskeisneerbek8847 todd has never worked for wizards?
He worked for dnd beyond which is a third party provider.
Its the equivalent of complaining about complaining about a waiter not knowing how to cook your food.
I mean sure they might, but theyre not the ones making the food(content)
WotC has said they're more interested in everyone having fun than working on balance primarily, which frankly makes a lot of sense to me, since min-maxxing is only a small part of the game for most players in my experience. That said, I do hope they smooth out SOME of the rough edges. Even years and years in, there are some classes that, simply by picking them, you're likely to not have a good time playing.
I was so excited when this video came out! I have to say though, a very easy way to resolve the "does it trigger" question regarding wild magic surges with your DM is just to talk to them beforehand. Come up with a system that works. I genuinely advocate to just have them okay the player with ALWAYS triggering the surges when applicable. It's extremely fun and can lead to some awesome or horrifying moments!
I hope you've got more than the standard 50(?) options in your Wild Magic table in that case, since it's going to be triggering so often that you'll start getting doubles.
@@MetaKaios doubles are fun ^_^
Honestly, I was down on the sorcerer up until this point because my friends had convinced me it was the weakest caster. After hearing your analysis of Aberrant Mind, I’m considering giving it a go.
The Tasha subclasses take the old sorcerer weakness and bend it 180 degrees into their greatest strength! AM and CS are some of THE most versatile casters in the game, having the Wizard's Spell List, the Cleric's Spell Quantity, AND Metamagic
@@cradillium7089 I'm playing a CS (Treantmonk's God mage build) and have been having a blast.
The earliest levels still hurt, so just keep that in mind.
Been playing Aberrant Mind for a while now and it's a blast to play for sure!
I like the flexibility the class offers, either on it's own, or as an addition to a multiclass abomination. I agree that outside the two kinda busted ones, it rarely impresses like some of the others... but really, the same can be said about the less optimal subclasses of other casters. Rocking a Necromancer Wizard, for example.
Thankfully my DM just said: “You surge every time after you use tides on the next spell” and then gave me a feywild shard for more surging.
Honestly this is probably how it should have been worded to begin with.
As DM i did 4 things for wild magic in my campaign:
1) i made a new table. Every odd number is the vanilla list, the even numbers are new entries
2) roll a dice on every leveled spell you cast. Every time you dont surge, the "dc" increases by 1. So at the start of the day you need a 1. Then if you cast and dont roll a 1 it increases to 2 and so on. It resets to 1 after each surge and also resets to 1 after a long rest
3) tides of chaos causes a surge on the next spell you cast and resets the check "dc" to 1
4) i added a list of granted spells as if it were a tashas subclass. They can be replaced by enchantment or illusion spells from the sorcerer warlock or wizard lists
@@Dark_Aves Perfection. Other than wording it slightly differently that's exactly what I would do. The Tasha's sorc kits are so wildly more powerful than the ones that came before that I'm surprised they didn't retroactively create bonus spell- known lists for all the older kits.
@@johngleeman8347 the wording here isnt exactly what I made on DndBeyond, butnkt gets the idea across.
And they definitely should have given older Sorcerous Origins more spells to bring them more in line with Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul. Its something that I'm definitely doing for my games if someone wants to play one of those subclasses but still want to stay relevant
Now I’m not saying this is the “correct” way to do the wild magic sorcerer, but I’m not not saying that.
Quicken has other uses too, just think outside the box. You can Quicken a spell and then use your action to Dash, or Dodge, or *Disengage*, the latter being very potent indeed. You can also use it in tandem with a Blade cantrip to give yourself psuedo Extra Attack in a pinch. You can Quicken a spell that possesses an effect you can activate as an action-- Sunbeam comes to mind-- and then use your action to trigger the effect-- often a second time-- on the same turn the spell was cast.
Agreed, the versatility of quicken spell is often forgotten, as it allows you to both cast a spell while preserving your action for other uses. In particular, many magic items have require an action to activate; this can be your humble healing potion or the powerful cube of force!
The best way I’ve seen quicken spell put is it lets you use your spell for the turn, while also freeing up your action to do a non-spell thing. Pretty good if you’re desperately in need of a dodge or disengage to keep yourself alive
Don't forget that you can use items as an action, as well. Even low level there can be fun stuff you can pull with this. Cast grease and drop caltrops at a "choke point." Cast a spell and quaff a healing potion. Cast a spell and use a healer's kit (better with healer feat, obviously). Cast a spell and apply a poison to the Paladin's halberd.
Still a little too expensive at low level (imo) for most builds. But, even without multiclassing, it is extremely good by the time you hit level 10.
And while I know people don't like to assume magic items in these discussions, I think it is extremely likely that players will have access to some uncommon items by tier 2 that can provide interesting non-spell uses of your action. (Robe of useful items, immovable rod, etc.)
If you’ve built a gish with sorcerer it’s incredible. Either buff yourself with like haste and still attack that turn or spirit guardians if you’re a divine soul or I’ll sometimes use it as a Paladin to throw a third melee attack with a Blade cantrip so another chance to crit and smite
I've used Mind Sliver to debuff a saving throw by 1d4 then quickened a spell that relies on saving throws. Quite good.
Storm Sorcerers NEED to take Transmute Spell as a Metamagic option. You probably took this into account but you didn’t mention it, but it gives you much better spell options to trigger your class abilities.
Draconic as well imo.
Draconic is such a let's make an elemental sorcerer that they should take transmute spell.
He briefly mentioned it as a negative, implying that you would have to use a lot of sorcery points changing the damage type.
With the Quickened Spell Metamagic that limits you to only using a cantrip, is it possible to order the spells such that you use the cantrip Mind Sliver that can reduce the next saving throw and then go into a saving throw based spell?
Yes, you can cast mind sliver and then quicken a leveled spell on the same turn.
@@TreantmonksTemple how that is possible? Mind sliver still is a spell
@@andrecosta8680 He may have misspoke, but casting a leveled spell as a bonus action prevents you from casting a levelled spell as an action that turn. Cantrips aren't considered leveled spells, so they don't prevent you from casting one as a bonus action
@@andrecosta8680 Mind Sliver is a cantrip. You can cast a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action even if you cast a spell as a bonus action on your turn.
@@TheAlGoreRhythm999 so cast mind sliver and cast a saving throw spell quickened?
I like how he described every single metamagic as bad-to-okay for a base sorcerer and then said "overall very powerful."
It's actually a good balance thing if there are no "must have" metamagic options. Imagine if you didn't have choices because the good ones were just too good.
@@k2k4 GWM and Sharpshooter in a nutshell, lol.
Was going to post a similar thing. The truth is, Chris does describe Subtle as 'one of the better ones' and Twinned as 'can be extremely powerful' - so although most of the metamagics are duds, it is not true of all of them.
Honestly, Twinned single-target buffs on other players is carrying this - unless you multiclass. The irony of this is that Metamagic is better at making other classes better than it is at making the Sorcerer themself better (whether twinning buffs on others OR multiclassing). Still, this is a plus for Sorcerer.
When optimising, this tends to be fine. What I really don't like is how much of a trap this makes Metamagic for new players, because if you don't pick Twinned you are pretty much losing out on the only feature Sorcerers have that is beneficial compared to Wizards. That is on top of the new player trap that is Known Spells in the first place.
@@RJWhitmoreTwin Spell haste is such an obvious and simple combo that I think it's pretty damn self evident, I think you're not giving people enough credit.
I really appreciate you highlighting where the rogue fit into the mishmash of subclasses at the beginning of your video. Thanks for the content as well!
I like that you acknowledged that sorcerers are lighting the fire under wizards subclasses to start providing something interesting besides "half cost spells". The Divination wizard has, imo, set the bar for what new wizard subclasses should be measured against.
Genuinely anticipating wizard being exclusively A and S tier (all A apart from the chronurgist).
Chronurgy is overrated
Given how he's talked about low hp classes being in melee, I don't see him being that friendly to the Bladesinger.
*Cackles ominously in Necromancer*
I guess what I’m expecting is for the base wizard chassis to be an A regardless; Necromancer (sadly) is probably my pick for the ‘weakest’ - though as I fully expect to hear in the video, it’s still a wizard.
@@joehill6916 Nah, he said he felt that Sorcerer had the second best spell list in the game, and they still only ranked a C with their worst subclasses. He's also said that Charisma based classes are some of the best for multiclassing, and Intelligence based ones are some of the worst. I'd say that the worst wizards will still get a B, but I think a lot will get an A, with a couple S-tiers.
One time I used the dragon sorcerer level 1 thing, adv on charisma checks while talking to dragons. I never thought it would come up, but it was situationally helpful that one time. Mostly went there for the AC buff to save a mage armor spell slot. Again great video and thanks for continuing this series. I love how you give almost every low level feature a good examination where other reviewers sometimes just read the book text and continue without much analysis. Good stuff keep it up :D
I'm calling it now, Warlocks are going to be the most varied class of the bunch, spanning FIVE tiers.
They are Also going to be the most prevalent in multi-classing. I personally wouldn’t allow warlocks to mix too much with other classes. Specifically the warlock to SP convertion mentioned in this video. To me it seems like the warlocks specifically didn’t get normal spell slots to prevent this.
Five tiers is a pretty bold prediction.
Five tiers would have to be like...S, A, B, C, and D, I guess?
A, B and C tiers, no problem I can see warlock in all those tiers. But...
I don't expect any warlock to get S. I can't see Hexblade being S--hexblade has some balance issues, but most of hexblade's balance issues are "it's a good 1 level dip, whereas other warlocks are bad 1 level dips, therefore there's not much variety in warlock dips." The game wouldn't break if we took some of the hexblade class features and just made them part of the warlock base class. So...hexblade mostly has balance issues *between* warlock subclasses rather than a character with hexblade in it breaking the game.
Unless Treantmonk wants to put Undead Warlock at S? Undead warlock's fear is really good, and certainly abuseable, but is it "ban this from your table" tier good? Ehh...I would be surprised if this was how he saw it.
On the flip side...is there going to be a warlock in D? We've yet to see a single full caster in D--I thought maybe sorcerer would finally place a full caster in D, since they have lots of weaknesses (d6 hit points, no armour proficiencies, lowest spells known but still need mage armour). And while sorcerer does have the two lowest ranked full casters so far, storm and wild magic are still 11 subclasses above the C/D boundary--that's a lot of buffer to be worse than storm sorcerer and still be C tier. Every warlock also at minimum can pick up a pretty good eldritch blast (agonizing blast + repelling blast) or whatever invocations Treantmonk decides to use to evaluate the classes (misty visions is good; mask of many faces is good, devil's sight is good). Every warlock subclass also still gets a pact boon. Summon spells from Tasha's are also very good for warlock, cause they have hour long durations and upcast well.
Like...to put a Warlock in D, you have to decide that Arcane Archer is better than someone with Eldritch Blast who has Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Hypnotic Pattern, Summon Fey/Undead, and a few other goodies (some more invocations, a pact boon).
@@KaitlynBurnellMath I'd argue hexblade has a case for S tier given the multiclass potential, making classes SAD, providing armour, hexblade's curse and spells for a 1 level dip is so much stronger than every other multiclass option in the game.
@@lazydk2654 Unfortunately, if you read the exact wording of Font of Magic and Pact Magic they are compatible.
Font of Magic simply states it consumes a spell slot, Pact Magic states they are spell slots.
@@johndevlin9225
Hexblade is a weird one, kinda like Moon Druid, I feel.
Hexblade 1 and 2 are absurdly good. After Hexblade 2... meh? Better than Moon Druid after 2, for sure, but, it's really coasting on those level 2 features, I feel.
Honestly, I think Hexblade actually isn't that much of a problem. It's not like Moon Druid 2, where on its own, it's an absurdly broken class that trivializes encounters and outdoes entire parties on its own, or can carry an otherwise complicated and not-functional-until-later build for many levels on its own.
The problem is more just how much Charisma synergy there is in 5e, and how many things can benefit hugely from what it provides.
Bards with combat on par with Fighters. Sorcerers getting armor and weapons for free. The odd Fighter or Barbarian getting magic abilities that likely exceed a subclasses ability, while still improving at combat. Paladins getting away with dumping Str, and smacking things entirely with their dazzling smile.
To me, those are more the problems with Hexblade. Hexblade 1&2 are kinda overpowered and versatile, but, not as a subclass that really works by itself, it only works as well as it does because a Charisma engine itself is so powerful.
Which maybe means it's broken? But, in a weird way.
That or I've just never seen a pure Hexblade played well.
Literally cheered a stereotypical kids television "Yaaaaaaay!!!" when I saw this.
Great video and series! I do notice some themes are becoming quite commonplace across classes. For example, once again, the 5e problem of trying to fix underperforming classes via adding over-turned subclasses to source books takes center stage, which I think your ratings format does a great job of highlighting.
I've been enjoying the series so far. I think Treantmonk's inherent bias toward spellcasters has him putting Storm, and Wild Magic Sorcs higher than they deserve here.
Storm is not worse than a no subclass Sorcerer, but Wild might be depending on the DM.
Something to remember in the rating system is that a no subclass sorcerer is a C, so to get lower than a C the subclass must make the main class worse.
The bias towards spellcasters makes too much sense though. The amount of versatility they get puts them ahead of other classes by default.
Thanks Chris! Loving the series
Thank you for yet another great video!
Nitpicks: Quickened spell allows your character to cast a leveled spell and do other [mundane] actions such disengage, dash, dodge... I know a full caster preferably shouldn't be focus/targetable/seen by enemies in the first place, but it still can happen, especially at lower levels (also depending upon your party and your game master).
I wish you did talk about the metamagic adept feat and how it and the metamagic options mehs with the different subclasses. E.g.: Isn't the shadow sorcerer more sorcery point hungry than the other subclasses? Do any of the subclass gain more or less from the extra Metamagic options? Should a sorcerer take the MMA feat and if so at which level? Etc.
I think you could even make a short video on this topic ;)
After I saw which subclasses you were showing first I got worried, knowing it would only get worse from there. Aberrant Mind, and Clockwork Soul I think are gonna be a go to Sorcerer from now on, or at least until the other subclasses get their own expanded spell list.
Faithful fan here with a tiny feedback... I would still be really interested in your thoughts on the subclasses above level 10. I know some tables that start at level 10 just to enjoy the high level stuff (not common, i know. but still...). Your work is always super clear and insightful. Thanks for everything!
I agree with you. I feel this oversight has slightly hurt the ranking series. Sure, we all understand that most campaigns do not reach the highest levels, but some of them do, in which case, this ranking list becomes useless as a guide from level 13+. I think it would be much better to take those higher features into account, but then weigh them less.
@@roberttschaefer Maybe a second series is in order? I'd be down for that. Hoping for a part two would be justified considering the depth (and time) of the analysis offered.
@@JaxWylds that’s a very good idea: it could even be done in one or two videos maybe? Just touching on subclass rankings for highest tier only?
I wouldn't mind also seeing this, but it starts getting more complicated because you are going to start seeing fewer and fewer people staying single class. 5e classes are pretty much all frontloaded, with many of the best abilities being granted and levels 1 and 2.
High level sorc subclasses, I think Clockwork is *still* the best. Their level 14 is amazing.
I have greatly anticipated this video.
Was not disappointed.
You did forget to mention the Storm Sorcerer getting two resistances at 6 with their ability that pairs with spells that do thunder/lightning damage. Sure, thunder and lightning aren't common damage types, but still two resistances beats no resistances.
Thanks for highlighting where the subclasses get dropped in the overall list, it’s helpful to see where they drop in among the others.
As a DM, I rule Tides of Chaos as: "The DM will always go to the Wild Magic Table on your next spell."
As it should be
@@haroldgarner7140 We additionally always roll on wild-magic after the sorcerer used the "tides of chaos".
And reset it with it.
@@rogerjolly1358 Wait, so you activate tides of chaos, which makes you roll on the table on the next spell.
And when you roll on the table, you get it back.
So you have it that a spent tides of chaos is regained after every single spell?
@@scrotymcboogerballs6756 Yes, haven't seen an issue yet. At lower levels, you don't have many spell slots to use and at higher levels, tides of chaos help but aren't game-breaking. If it starts to look broken at some point I may let the player know we are going to randomize the return but it has only been fun so far.
@@scrotymcboogerballs6756 You activate Tides of Chaos too get an advantage on the next roll.
Then u cast a scorcery-spell and roll on the chaos-chart.
Then u get the tides of chaos option back.
My little houserule for Sorcerer is that they work on the spell points system variant rule with their sorcery points stacked on top of the spell points, and cast directly from them. This handily lets me cap spell points at a maximum value to prevent coffeelock exploits while helping emphasize the sorcerer's flexible spellcasting by letting them bypass the bonus action usually needed to shuffle slots and points around. Altogether, it feels a lot more flavorful and fun for such a small change that's already a variant rule in the book!
My table does a similar thing. I'm playing a Divine Soul Sorcerer with these rules and origin spells, and I LOVE PLAYING THEM! It makes me feel like I'm more than just like Wizard+Cleric lite, I feel like I am my own thing and that my power truly comes from me.
How does that work with Sorcerers who multiclass?
@@Loeher They gain spell points while taking other classes at the rate the other class would in the variant spell points system.
In the case of warlocks, I give them spell points equal to the amount required to cast their spells. For example, 3 levels of warlock grants 2 level 2 slots so 6 spell points - and then I let them recover 6 spell points on short rest.
@@s0niKu I guess with low level multiclasses it does not matter (you normally only dip warlock 2/3), but if you give higher level warlocks spell points, that changes them quite a bit, namely, that they could cast low level spells without having to upcast them now.
That makes many spells (like shield) A LOT better, and changes the number of spells between short rests.
I think warlocks are very weak, so that is not something that makes them OP, but still it strongly changes what warlocks are
@@aldoushuxley5953 I've never seen a main warlock dip sorc, only the other way around, so it's never come up. If someone did take warlock with a sorc dip I'd have to look again at how I have it work. But I don't think that's a very popular multiclass style so I doubt it'll come up much.
So who else thinks other subclasses need origin spells as well? Imagine Storm Sorcerer with Call Lightening as a free spell known? Or Lightening Lure and Witch Bolt?
In no small way I believe most of the classes need a re-write to square them with Tasha's, both in language and power levels. (Like the Aberrant and Clockwork bonus spells.)
@@paulh5984 Well, I do not know about huge reworks, but making sure all Sorcerer and Ranger subclasses get bonus spells would seem to be an easy fix. Allowing Monks subclasses to use there special abilities once before needing to spend Ki would also be easy.
Yup, one homebrew I have on my games is giving them some extra spells, you dont even have to think really hard, the way I do it is:
Divine Soul - Get the spells from Celestial Warlock
Shadow - Get the spells from Death Cleric
Storm - Get the spells from Tempest Cleric
Wild Magic - Get 2 random Wizard spells for each spell level, can reroll at the end of a long rest.
Draconic - Get 2 spells that do damage of the type of your Draconic ancestry, if there aren't 2 suitable spells (not a lot of spells do Acid damage), then fill it up with Wizard evocation spells.
Solid idea and makes sense with the direction Abberrant and Clockwork went... maybe not witch bolt let's not do that to storm sorcerer
@@Constrictor_Victor Storm Sor maybe the only class that could reasonably use Witchbolt.
Something to keep in mind is how well Sorc works with the tight 5e action economy. Being able to Quicken and then something else is quite good, even if it's just dodge, cast blade ward, or move more. Imposing disadvantage on STs is really good - even if monsters have legendary resistance, you can force them to burn off their 3 auto-saves. Clockwork canceling magic resistance and then imposing a disadvantage on a ST - wow.
With new feats - and lots of meta options - Sorcs are much more flexible.
With clockwork you get Wall of Force - just missing things like Forcecage and a few other great high lvl wiz spells (but you can downtime-cast several of them, like sim, with Wish).
With even one level of warlock and EB + agonizing blast (via feat, or 2 lvls of lock for the invo), you can quick a useful spell - and then toss hard-hitting EBs on top of that.
Some campaigns have a longer schedule of fights in a day. In AL, understanding how to deal w/ the action economy and few fights per day is key. Sorcs tend to shine, esp clock and abh.
The Aberrant Mind Sorcerer can switch a spell out for Gift of Alacrity. Then, if you choose custom lineage, you can select Telekinetic rather than Fey-Touched.
I want to see an eloquence bard build start with a one level dip in aberrant mind for the shield, mage armor and better damage cantrip, then use the super persuasion and deception with the long distance telepathy. They talk a vendor out of an apple and climb a clock tower in the middle of town, and procedue to persuade and deceive everyone they can see telepathically to cause either a perfect day, or maximum chaos. While they sit and chew the apple.
@@The_Yukki That kinda sorta gives you 3 sorcery points.
Can you explain this better? I dont get it
@@andrecosta8680 eloquence bard gives you a minimum 10 on persuai and deceive checks. Aberrant mind at lvl 1 gives you telepathy. The ability to persuade people without others noticing is neat.
If gift of alacrity is on the wizard spell list, according to your DM in your setting, then yes.
I mostly agree with the ratings, although I would like to point out that shadow is actually very good if you do a Shadow sorcerer hexblade multiclass. Shadow sorcerer's perma advantage combined with Hexblade's curse and multi-ray spells (Eldritch Blast or my favourite: scorching ray) deal very good damage super reliably. The best part is that you don't need to use up a valuable invocation to get the perma advantage, meaning you can pick up stuff like repelling blast for your Eldritch blast. As a result you get a lot of versatility: Will you use your concentration to grant yourself perma advantage, make yourself very difficult to kill and dish out a ton of damage while also pushing enemies around, or will you use your concentration to cast WEB and then push opponents into it with repelling blast?
Spirit Guardians on a pure sorcerer is not a good spell. The 15' radius that centers on you is too close for an unarmored and low hit point character that needs to maintain concentration. I have never selected it with my Divine Soul Sorcerers. With a multi-class into a Paladin then yes a great spell.
Yes, high AC is a necessity to get any value out of Spirit Guardians. It's also good on a sorclock (hexblade), as apart from giving decent base AC (18, 23 with shield), one of the invocations grants a pull effect to EB which allows an additional trigger of Spirit Guardian damage.
I still think it's a good choice. Would I take it over hypnotic pattern? Probably not. But you are probably preparing shield and mage armor anyway. You could use mirror image and or the dodge action. Even if you take a hit you are proficient in Constitution saves. Also spirit guardians scales really well. That is something a sorcerer should be looking for.
I've been looking and can't seem to find the invocation that pulls you in. Could anybody help me out here?
@@opposumness3107 Grasp of Hadar
Thanks !
Mostly on the same page with the subclass options. All the older ones could use origin spells, but only the draconic, wild and storm might need additional help or redesigning beyond that. I do however think the core class still needs more metamagic choices spread across all levels. It is ridiculous that you have 2 at level 3 and only gain a third at level 10. It's an illusion of choice that isn't really much of a choice at all because of metamagics like twinned, subtle and quicken ruling the pack. We also add a half sp recovery once per long rest which might in some ways be pushing it, but I think it has the positive of making sorc a stronger solo class due to a bit of added scaling based on your sorc level specifically.
While the draconic subclass isn't as good as the new ones, I used it back before Xanathar's. A good workaround the resistance to elements was taking Elemental Adept: I was delighted when the DM said that a monster was resistant to fire and I was like "not MY fire ;D". Between the Charisma mod and that feat, the minimum damage was pretty good! but I wish other elements had good interesting spells, because at the time Fire was like the most optimized in terms of damage.
Not sure how it lands in terms of optimization, but I had no problem dealing lots of damage in that game. The only campaign my group managed to finish, the one I had the most fun, and the one where I played a spellcaster for the first time, lol.
Best 5e series on the RUclips.
The aberrant mind sorcerer’s level 6 ability is bonkers. You get a discounted spell, upgraded to subtle, can slap on metamagic because technically you didn’t augment it already, and an enormous amount of flexibility to use spells due to casting with a pool of sorcery points, not your spell slots.
Empowered Spell might not be that useful by the law of averages but it’s big benefit, to me, is a chance to take away a feel bad moment of casting a big damage spell and rolling just terribly below average. Similarly you’re not going to use it if you roll just okay so average might not be the best way to look at it.
So I think those things should be taken into account.
I love the sorcerer class! And I agree with this list. I very much wish that they'd given all subclasses the extra spells feature, as now if you play anything not from Tasha's you're hindering your character by so much
I've never played a Sorcerer, but have seen a few in play, mostly as DM. The limited spells really seems like an issue. They're missing some spells that really would be good fits for them, such as Bigby's Hand, which has a lot of flexibility.
WotC seems to have missed some great potential themes for sorcerers, too: No telekinetic/force sorcerer, for instance.
The other big design problem I find with Sorcerers is how much they don't benefit from Short Rests. This means that the Sorcerer is quite often the cause of "Five Minute Workday" problems.
I have a homebrew variant rule for divine soul that is essentially aberrant mind/clockwork soul but you pick a cleric domain when you select divine soul, get its domain spells like you would get the bonus spells for AM and CS and can swap them for enchantment/evocation school spells.
Clockwork is so good mechanically but so terrible in terms of lore. It just feels counterintuitive. This sort of magic fits better with a learned source rather than one that come from bloodline.
But the lore is from Mechanus. It's exactly the kind of spells you'd get if your poppa was a Modron
@@kibbo86 yea I don't buy into any of that kind of garbage. People cant breed with a chimp let alone another kind of being altogether. Breeding with Elves and Orcs is a stretch but I can accept it in a fantasy setting. Mixing with Dragons, genies, demons, just breaks any semblance of verisimilitude. Mixing with a Modron would be even worse because they aren't even biological creatures. I always change the lore behind any sorcerer I make for this reason.
About Bend Luck for Wild magic Sorcerers. It changes a roll by, on average, 2.5. Put into context, Advantage/disadvantage changes the DC by an average of 3 ( by 5 if the DC is around 15, by 1 if the DC is around 5 or around 25).
Dope vid, as always. Now for the grueling task of waiting another week.
Been watching different Ranking videos on dnd and it is amazing how different people rank the subclasses. So I ask you, what am I supposed to do now? Form an opinion of my own? I haven't done that in years ...
This series has been great! Back when I had first read the rules for 5e I made the mistake of believing that you could quicken a spell with your bonus action and then cast another spell with your action. It made me highly over rate the Sorcerer.
You can do that. It just can't be a leveled spell with Bonus Action and a leveled spell in the same turn. Any spell cast as a bonus action then creates the restriction of only being able to cast a cantrip using your normal action.
Works really awesome on a sorcerer/warlock multiclass since eldritch blast is a cantrip
I like sorcerers but most of the subclasses don’t really appeal to me.
My roommate is running me through a solo campaign with me playing two characters. The talker is a Aberrant Mind/Gene Warlock with a focus on politics. His muscle is a Soulknife/Gene Warlock with the ability to sneak into anywhere and never carry a weapon or armour. Political campaigns are fun as all get out
Me: I forgot Storm Sorcerer existed.
Treantmonk: This one was originally printed in the sword coast adventurer's guide and if there is one thing I've learned, that's not a good sign.
Me: Yeah....
Something fun about the Hound of Ill Omen is that nothing says you can only have one up at a time, so if you really want to you can bring one out every turn and action economy the enemy to death.
Really love the DScryb readings Chris....I'm feeling that flavour!!
I am addicted to these videos and I dont even play dnd..
Frankly, I think that bonus spell tables similar to those of the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul sorcerers should be added to *EVERY* sorcerer subclass. Because Cris is absolutely right; lack of versatility is the bane of the sorcerer. Just imagine if, say, the Divine Soul sorcerer could choose one cleric Domain spell list ... and then switch them out for any cleric spell ... or if the Wild Magic sorcerer automatically got spells like Chaos Bolt, Mirror Image, Confusion and Polymorph, and then could trade them out for any Enchantment or Illusion spell. I think that would make essentially every sorcerer subclass A-tier ... and without making any of them OP. Frankly, I consider most sorcerer subclass abilities subpar anyway, and adding a little spell versatility to this class is just what it needs.
And yes, I know I'm ranting about home brewed stuff, and that's not what this channel is about. But I get so tired of seeing the idiotic and BASIC design flaws in 5E, especially the power discrepancies between base classes, that it just drives me to distraction.
(I'm also working on a home brew monk that isn't utter trash, based on the open hand damage table from 1E ... and on either doubling ki points or adding options that DON'T cost ki ... haven't made a decision on that yet ... but I've already redesigned the Way of Four Elements to give it spell slots) ;)
I totally agree, but I also think there are just not enough good spells for this. I think they would all look very similar in the end.
I haven’t played with many monks, but at my lvl 21 one shot, I found it to be a total stun bot. I’d sure make some options free, but maybe up the cost of stun tbh. If u are willing to share your work, I’d love to se it. Working on the WM sorcerer myself
@@lazydk2654 One of the things I like best about the 1E monk as opposed to 5E (and something that actually makes sense if you've watched Cris's videos on the problems with the class) is that any time the monk beats the enemy AC by 5 or more it stuns automatically, no saving throw, for 1d6 rounds. I'm seriously considering adapting this mechanic (I don't like the "1d6 rounds" thing; too much work for the DM) while also allowing the spending of ki to allow the standard stun mechanic (i.e., CON save, lasts until end of your next turn) whenever you hit but don't reach the "stun threshold." Other than this, my changes (at this point; it's currently a WIP) would mostly involve allowing the monk to use any armors it gains proficiency in without penalty (or perhaps just giving it light armor proficiency) and, again, changing the martial arts damage die to both assist the monk at its lowest levels and more accurately reflect the deadliness the 1E monk could attain. Here is my table as currently developed:
Level 1: 1d6 (avg 3.5 + DEX mod)
Level 3: 2d4 (avg 5)
Level 5: 1d10 (avg 5.5)
Level 7: 2d6 (avg 6.5)
Level 9: 3d4 (avg 7.5)
Level 11: 4d4 (avg 10)
Level 14: 5d4 (avg 12.5)
Level 15: 6d4 (avg 15)
Level 16: 5d6 (avg 17.5)
Level 17: 8d4 (avg 20)
The 1E monk also added +1/2 point of damage to weapon attacks per monk level, but I believe that, with the above table and the monk rules as they stand, adding that to the monk would actually make it OP.
I'd also considered just giving the monk extra attacks similar to the fighters', but decided that its current mechanic is okay; instead, I'm just doubling its ki points. I *AM* considering making any bonus attacks part of the Attack action instead of costing a bonus action, however.
@@morganpetros9635 hmm I don’t know if I like buffing it that much.
While treatmonk doesn’t think highly of the monk, as far as I can discern, it’s main use is as a stunbot. It has low damage, high cc, high mobility. while that doesn’t seem particularly good in itself, having someone else to do the dps, makes it better. I don’t like the idea of increasing both the ability to stun and the damage. And your scaling with flurry of blows seems to do that. While that does consume a lot of Ki, battles tend to be short in d&d. Now granted a longer fight where the monk burns everything fast, he’ll be but a meat shield very quickly.
Regarding the armour, it’s not game breaking, but also not very thematically fitting. I don’t know whether he really needs it.
And when the monk starts stunning, his AC becomes less important. Also the monks main stats; dex and wis are some of the primary saves, meaning the monk doesn’t have and hard weaknesses in his defences.
It’s like a Leona from LoL, and she’s always viable.
Also: I started with 5e in 2016, so I’m not familiar with 1e stuff, but u describe it well.
@@shawnpeterson2523 Nah. The way to avoid that is, first, give every Origin Spell list a theme For example Draconic Bloodline sorcerers could get a lot of spells that imitate what dragons can do (so ... Breath Weapon, Fly, See Invisibility, Legend Lore, etc.) while Storm sorcerers would get a lot of Fog Cloud, Gust of Wind, Levitate, Sleet Storm, Storm Sphere, Watery Sphere, etc. Then you just make sure the two schools of magic they can choose from are different for each subclass. For example for the Shadow sorcerer I've chosen Illusion and Necromancy as schools they can replace their spells from, whereas with Wild Magic I chose Enchantment and Transmutation ... all while making certain there were useful spells of other schools in each subclass spell list (for example, Shadow Sorcerers as I've built them get Pass Without Trace rather than Invisibility as a 2nd-level spell). This allows for a good and versatile spell list for each subclass.
Storm guide is very useful while sailing a ship.
So if you're in the right campaign and in the right situation, it could be mechanically useful
I actually think aberrant mind gets more at lvl 6 than clockwork.
Casting some of your meaner spells without components or slots is absolutely crazy to me
You are still technically using slots, or rather, you are effectively consuming the same amount of resources either way. 4 sorcery points is equivalent to a 4th level spell slot.
@@Sporrik Not at all. In the first place, you cannot make a 4th level spell slot out of 4 sorcery points. You _could_ go the other direction, but you have a base pool of sorcery points to work from first. Secondly, you are casting it with the equivalent of Subtle Spell (1 sorcery point), _with the option_ to tack on another metamagic (priceless).
Aberrant mind pretty clearly gets more than clockwork at level 6. Psionic Sorcery PLUS Psychic Defenses is waaaaay better than Bastion of Law. Did someone say otherwise?
@@chrislieu6757 no one said otherwise.
This is an argument as to why I think they scale better than clockwork or at least stay stronger for a few lvls
Bastion + agathys is too good though, I would know my abjurer wizard has armor of agathys
@@Sporrik No it isn't.
A 4th level slot is equal to 4 sorcery points.
But it costs MORE than 4 sorcery points to make a 4th level slot.
Plus the slot-> point transfer means you can burn 3 level 1 slots, and a level 2 slot, and then cast Synaptic static.
Burning all your slots into points means you could get 4-6 castings of the fifth level spell, that no one else at that level could do except a warlock with plenty of short rests.
I've been in plenty of game where the "adventuring day" ended up taking less than 10 rounds of combat total.
Loved the video! But i cant wait to the next, Warlock is my favourite class and its so unique that i now that it will spread through all tiers 😂
Draconic Bloodline - basically, you've got Mage Armor on 24-7-365, and extra hp. Granted, the need to spend a point for resistance sucks..... maybe if the resistance was Permanent and it was Immunity that needed the point..... might be worth it.
Played one, and had a couple of cool moments, distracting an innkeeper and then lying to some guards about why I wanted to go into an alley...... piece of advice, don't drink a 1.5 liter bottle of pop before the NPC Guard Captain asks such questions, as that's a valid reason to head into such areas, providing that the guard didn't spot you first, and ask twenty questions that go in a circular path, until they give up and say - "clearly a drunk idiot."
Hmm. My architect-themed spellcaster has been planned as a bard thus far, however... clockwork sorceror could be a strong possibility. And it fits quite nicely thematically. The main problem with a wacky character like that is always trying to stuff things from several spell lists on to one individual, and the higher the spell levels the more difficult it gets. And building stuff tends to skew exactly in that direction. Almost makes the bard's magical secrets completely essential. However I think clockwork's worth a look, I have overlooked it. Looked at divine soul, but that wasn't quite enough. Clockwork might be; it's got that transmutation thing going.
I mean I could just as easily give her a sidekick to fill in a lot of the gaps (and probably will). Not after level five spells, though.
I would rank Divine Soul a little higher. You can attack with spiritual weapon every round as a bonus action and add a strong full action spell attack.
Out of the two new sorcs from Tasha's, Aberrant Mind is far superior for anyone that is a super slick roleplayer and likes to do devious, scary things. Telepathy and subtle casting are for more creativity-friendly mechanics than canceling out disadvantage and reducing damage. I love the bonus spell list you can build with clockwork, but I think AM has way more style and panache.
Yes!! I love this series!
The way I've always seen Wild Magic Surge and Tides of Chaos is that it's not really the dm's choice when to trigger Wild Magic but that they explicitly have the ability to veto it. So as I'd see it tides of chaos will always recharge unless the dm doesn't want wild magic to happen. Although how they'll rule it obviously still depend on the dm, so yeah it's still tricky.
I have never played with a wild magic sorcerer, but I will say it looks suboptimal but very fun, and I rarely say that. Fun as long as you don't care too much about your character.
Also great video!!
Interesting, I thought you were going to rip into Bastion of Law, as I've always seen that ability as garbage. 5 sorcery points for what averages to 22.5 damage reduction? It costs an action, though you can cast it once for the day, but will you ever use it unless you can prep for a fight? And even then would you? The amount of meta magic you're sacrificing for at best 40 dr and at worst 5 dr is just not worth it. I feel like this is identical to your monk rants with the linked resource pools to the primary class feature, but it isn't being viewed quite the same. Theoretically as a clockwork, you'll have polymorph, which you can then twin (for 4 points) giving far more than the theoretical maximum 40 protection and it is far more versatile. Or you could just turn those points into another one of your amazing spells, since the spells available are fantastic and 5 points = a 3rd level. Would you rather have (avg) 22.5 DR or another haste/counterspell/fireball? I don't know if I'd ever use this feature outside of extremely niche circumstances.
Right? At least monks get all of their points back on a short rest. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills whenever people rave about clockwork. Bastion of Law does not provide good value for its price. A waste of points and feature space -also an entire action if you don't dump a significant number of your points ahead of time. -It seems like a trap feature imo. And then all of that subclass's features [besides the expanded spell list and the proficiency capped level 1 feature] use more of your points if you want to use them more than once per long rest. They might as well include a text box advising that you avoid metamagics with higher than 1 point costs.
Clockwork goes to the logical extreme of giving you lots of great new spells known at the expense of very little value in their other features.
Fantastic breakdown man, thanks. Its good to see the change in design philosophy as they've gone along, a lot of the early subclasses feel too conservative.
Have you ever thought about making a divine soul dedicated healer? I particularly think he's much better than a Cleric, after all he can Twin spells, Quicken spells, cast spells without taking a counter and extend the duration of Aid, by exemple, which you can cast before every long rest, in addition to having the arcane spells to have more versatility, defenses, etc.
And if you do a 1 level dip with the peace cleric you can still wear armor, shield and use Emboldening Bound
And if your GM is generous enough to give you a Shard Earth... you'll be incredibly hard to kill. Or the Shard Good, to spam THP. Or any other, after all they are all incredibly useful
Tbh the free disengage and extra movement from the storm sorcerers 1st level ability is fantastic. It frees up most of the teleport spells you may waste your slots on, and gives you useful escape options in most environments other than flat ground. I think you ranked it a little low. Other than that, great video as always chris.
Plus I don’t think he mentioned that the sixth level feature gives you resistance to thunder and lightning, and while it the most common damage types that’s not half bad imo.
Rewatching Sorcerer and Warlock rankings to decide which spellcasting class I want to play next. Really leaning toward Daolock, but might be convinced to multiclass
The best use of Quickened Spell by far is combining it with the Dodge Action. It will save your life dozens of times, especially if you have Shield.
Before this list was posted, I had Clockwork somewhere between Eloquence Bard and Watchers Paladin, strong A. Aberrant as a mid-B, where Divine finished.
I keep coming back to the Sorcerer being middling otherwise. So if I get more spells known, but not spells known in optimal schools (Clockwork), then it's not really as big a boost as it seems. Ends up somewhere around "good" overall. Not one of the best classes in the game. But I understand that this is subjective and I respect your take on it.
For the record, I expect Hexblade, War Magic and Divination as the remaining A classes. Chronurgy as the only S tier.
Reason for the Wizard rankings: This is tier 1 and tier 2 mostly. This has to cap the Wizard for relative effectiveness. Otherwise, the weaknesses of the classes we know to exist, especially for pure casters, are glossed over.
Looking forward to it.
Finally we are to the interesting spellcasters
My War Cleric 8 is doing a 3 Lvl dip into Sorc to pick up Shield, Absorb Elements, Feather Fall and Misty Step. Picking Twinned Spell and Distant Spell as meta-magics.
Extending Summon Celestial for two hours is worth one's concentration as the warrior gets to continually regain temp HP for himself and his allies on every attack. The Divine Soul can keep it healed if necessary and is one of the best go-to spells, especially if you are using the spell point variant rule.
Let's be blunt, 'Wizards' of the Coast are too scared of sorcerers being good to ever really give them parity with aforesaid 'Wizards'. The core class was crap number of spells known, a lot of the metamagics are not worth it and better as a dip than as a full class. Gimme the 3.5 and PF versions instead.
I made predictions of where i thought you would rank each subclass before each video - and on this one i got quite lucky :D
for all sorcs i was a total of 3 spots off :D I ranked shadow behind forge Aberrant ahead of Eloquence and divine ahead of stars.
Woohoo, my favorite caster is here! Having an Achilles' Heel of few spells known, despite being as dependent on their spells as the wizard (i.e. the class's entire identity), really stings. BUT that is also why Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul are so amazing, for pulling the sorcerer up to be properly neck-to-neck with the wizard. I just wish WotC would give the same love to the older sorcerer subclasses, but I guess they're not called Sorcerers of the Coast...
As always, my tiers are bumped up one letter to make more aesthetic sense (S becomes SS, A becomes S etc.). It was nice to see even the older sorcerers get some recognition for the sheer power of the Arcane Spell List, even surprisingly so for the most barren subclasses. Next week, we see the weirdest caster.
SS: Twilight, Peace, Moon
S: CLOCKWORK SOUL, Shepard, Eloquence, ABERRANT MIND, Watchers, Conquest, Vengeance, Echo Knight, Gloom Stalker
A: Trickery, Forge, Lore, Valor, Redemption, Glamour, Creation, Ancients, Devotion, Rune Knight, Wildfire, Stars, DIVINE SOUL, Glory, Light, Arcana, Oathbteaker, Crown, SHADOW SORCERER, Armorer, Battle Smith, Battlemaster
B: Tempest, Order, Life, Swords, Spirits, Spores, Swarmkeeper, Fey Wanderer, Death, Knowledge, Grave, DRACONIC, Whispers, Nature, War, Land, Zealot, Dream, WILD MAGIC, Arcane Trickster, Soul Knife, STORM SOUL, Artillerist, Beastmaster2, Samurai, Eldritch Knight, Psi Warrior, Ancestral Guardian, Totem Warrior, Phantom Walker, Horizon Walker
C: Monster Slayer, Hunter, Mercy, Swashbuckler, Arcane Archer, Beast, Storm Herald, Cavalier, Scout, Purple Dragon Knight, Champion
D: Assassin, Wild Magic Barbarian, Thief, Mastermind, Shadow Monk, Long Death, Berserker, Battlerager, Inquisitive, Kensei, Open Hand, Beastmaster1
F: Alchemist, Drunken Fist, Astral Self, Four Elements, Sun Soul
Ah, the pretend best spellcaater, can't wait for the actually best spellcaater.
That's right I can't wait for Warlocks either
@@shiranuiprestonsaga8867 Warlocks may be the coolest, but only because they are Wizards with sugar daddies
@@Kapp4kappa I know I'm just joking Wizards are Ridiculously insane
@@shiranuiprestonsaga8867 I'm dumb yay :)
Wizards are just jealous that grandpa Cthulhu didn’t give them any presents. Warlocks can get a radical pet, a pocket knife, a lucky charm, or a book along with (arguably) the best cantrip in the game.
Wizards have to make their own book and they don’t even have any cool flavor or built-in story elements:
“Oh, your teacher is gone, you dropped out of wizard school, or you’re a self taught spell caster? That’s neat... I can shoot lasers out of my face because I sold my immortal soul to a talking horse.”
I like how the Divine Soul also benefited from getting Summon Celestial.
True, summoning options are rare for sorcerers.
The vast majority of Sorcerers are strictly worse Wizards. That being said, a worse version of the best class in the game is still very potent.
Sorcerer is weird like that, because while that's true, Clockwork is probably the strongest caster in the game in Tiers 1 and 2.
The added spells on a spontaneous caster do a lot of work, just for reference, a level 10 Sorcerer will have 21 "prepared" spells, a level 10 Wizard with 20 Int will have 15 prepared spells.
Of course, Wizards know more spells and have ritual casting, but I think metamagic is better than that.
A Sorcerer can effectively shut down any Wizard at high levels as they can subtle cast their spells and subtle cast Counterspell not letting the Wizard get off any spells (and remember they can reroll Counterspells ability check as well. Subtle spell is only 1 point and the fight is over before depleting their sorcery points.
Psionic Sorcery is even better than you stated because the exchange rate is very favorable. It costs 4 points to cast a 4th level psionic sorcery spell, but you can trade a 4th level spell for 6 points! Cast your spell with free subtle, no material components, and you get change back.
liquidating a spell slot only recovers sorcery points equal to its level unfortunately, so regain 4 points for a 4th level slot. Psionic casting is good for spamming spells but it costs you your resource for metamagic which is usually the main incentive for playing a sorcerer.
-Psionic spamming your 1st level spells and maybe second level can be pretty potent though -casually throw around hex/charm person in social scenarios for 1 point, or twinned dissonant whispers for 2 points and no slots used sound good to me!
@@elliotbryant3459 Doh! I totally played that wrong.
When I think about using metamagic with a different class I like to use it with paladin and quicken the bless spell on the first round of combat it seems like a little thing but it's really cool
Thanks to tashas which extended the clerics spell-list a Divine Soul with the Extended Spell can pick aura of vitality to heal 40d6 in two minutes, with the cost of a 3rd-lvl and 1 Sorcery Point. I think that is a lot of potential hp. Still doesn't solve the problem with the spells know. As well as the lvl 6 feature
Hound of ill Omen. 6 level feature. No concentration summoning bonus action that still allows a spell/action. Disadvantage on saving throws.
These tiers are focused on lower levels? This feature is great at higher levels as well with better spells. This is for "Optimizer"? MM Adept
Subtle/Distance/Quicken? Silvery Barbs,Mind Sliver etc. Can summon multiple at once? Can enhance the hound with casting other spells on it. S Tier
They could boost the PHB and xanathar option which have great flavor so easily:
Give them all the abberant mind spell list template. 2 extra spell knows per level and 1 extra cantrip. Then those spell can be cast using sorcerer point (1 sorcerer point per spell level) and if they do they gain small extra bonus.
So Dragon sorcerer would be able to choose from evocation and conjuration and if they used sorcerer point they can change the damage type of the spell into their dragon ancestry elemental type. I woud even add teh Fizban gem dragon option here.
Wild: illusion and enchantment and would give a free wild magic surge roll
Shadow: evocation and illusion. if the spell emit light, the bright light portion is replace by magical darkness but at 1/4th the radius and the sorcerer can see throught this darkness.
Storm sorcerer: chose between evocation and transmutation. and the damage type can be switch to lightning or thunder
Divine: choose any cleric spell (instead of from 2 school) nd the spell receive the benefit of the distant metamagic but it doesn't coutn as a metamagic
Their sorcerer is Kinda of fix, if font of magic would allow to recover a number of sorcerer point = to your profiency bonus on short rest, then create a brand new cap stone abilities, sorcerer would be really interesting and would compare with wizard (but til lack the spell list)
How would a short rest heavy game like gritty realism impact these ratings? Short rest classes go up a rank and long rest classes down one?
As a DM for a Wild Magic Sorcerer, I just say that Tides of Chaos always procs on the next level spell. It's not something I ever have to keep track of at that point. The player does. Easy fix
Wild Magic should be a D, for one huge reason.
It discourages non-combat casting.
MANY of the Wild Magic table results stop being "mostly good" in a delicate social situation. If a Sorcerer casts some kind of enchantment or other support spell while trying to make an important social interaction with an NPC, accidentally pulls the Magic Missile effect, and suddenly King Steve has taken magic missiles to the face, the campaign may be over on the spot, unless King Steve is a very understanding soul, with blind bodyguards. So most Wild Magic Sorcerers are just going to stop casting spells out of combat entirely, and do so more likely in more delicate noncombat interactions, which is where that magic wants to be used in the first place, which essentially guts the entire magic utility wing of the caster, which is DEFINATELY worse than a subclassless sorcerer.
It's fun, oh lordy is it fun, especially if the DM has you pulling wild magic often, but, it brings up the whole "If your car has a 90% chance of working as normal, a 5% chance of teleporting you to work instantly, and a 5% chance of exploding the moment you put the key in the ignition, you stop using your car" argument.
The Feywild Shard solves a lot of Wild Magic's problems. It puts it in the hands of the player, makes it more likely when you want it to be, though it doesn't entirely remove the "blow up the throneroom" situation as you describe.
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So all player's handbook subclasses are C, All Xanathar are B and tasha's sorcerers are A. The improvment with time is literaly new book going for next tier each time.
Credit should be given to the Shadow Sorcerer for being a great one-level dip.
I think that the 1st level Storm Sorcerer feature is pretty underrated.
People evaluate it just thinking about the "without provoking an opportunity attack" thing, so they think that the only value is to disengage but nothing could be more wrong, it's a really good mobility feature that permise you to position yourself better during a fight, is a flying movement so you can use it to do interesting things that normally you can't do, is a bonus action so you will use it every time you cast a spell of 1st level or more, is good to position yourself before the cast of some cone or line area of effect with better accuracy and for sure is a disengage that you can use without wasting your action or without wasting any spell slot in a teleport spell, and usually this disengage permise you to gain enough speed to become unaccessible to the enemy on the next round.
On a Storm Sorcerer i will heavily consider to take Tabaxi as race, because his "Feline Agility" works pretty well with the "Tempestuous magic" feature and with the 6th level feature too, to gain that extra mobility that permise you to position yourself well or to disengage hardly without the need to waste a slot on something like misty step.
On a business note: Honest to Gygax, your use for Dscryb text in your videos is a better advertisement than any dedicated ad could be. It follows the show don't tell rule. You are directly showing your viewers the benefit of using the boxed text on offer, and I'm getting a little closer to paying for a sub each time. I'm the kind of weirdo to notice these things.
Wild magic sorcerer is one of the few subclasses that I actually find annoying to play with as a party member. Not really because of the possibility to kill your party, although that can be really annoying, but because of how much they tend to slow down the game.
A quick and dirty house rule for non Aberrant Minds or clockwork souls: 1 additional known spell per spell level from 1st - 5th. Brings the other subclasses closer to Aberrant Mind and Clockwork.
Tides of Chaos could use some clarification to make using it desirable (basically take it out of the DMs hand when to make them roll) and the Storm Sorcerer could be tweaked to give it's benefits when they use all spells (not just thunder and lightning spells) and they'd be so much better by just adding like 5 words between the two subclasses combined.
You have no idea how many times the GM forgot that my divine sorcerer still had Inflict wounds from level 1.
He tought it to be a good idea to put someone in melee with mu character; he ended up regretting it every time.
The funny thing is that Clockwork Sorcerer's "Restore Balance" ability makes things *more* chaotic rather than less. Advantage/Disadvantage are more likely to give respectively better/worse results, while pure roll can give any, and therefore is more chaotic.
Advantage and disadvantage make your chance of getting a median roll WORSE, since your choosing one of the options.
Whereas a flat roll has an equal chance of it being any number on the die.
@@adamkaris Why median is relevant here? I don't see how low chances of getting it make things more orderly. "Order" means predictability, and it's much easier to predict what result will be on the roll with advantage/disadvantage.
You know what it is? At the end of the Day TMT is a fan. Whatever his experience is, it involves him loving the Wizard like a child loves a super hero. It's not rational, it lacks perspective but it's childlike and innocent. No Spider Man is not more Powerful Than Super man but try convincing a 4 year old Spidey fan otherwise. He's given us a lot of fun videos and thoughts
but is far more of a defendant of The Wizard than an Optimizer of the Sorcerer. It's why he misses with the class so badly. I still like his thoughts and understand why he is lost here.
That makes total sense. It's why he keeps saying Wizards know more spells and have bigger lists in place of all the powerful things the Sorcerer can do. (I still wanna see the Librarian Slayer build... Sorcerer with counter spell and heighten..Love that idea. Maybe TMT will do it.)