Voddie Baucham & Thabiti Anyabwile speaking on racism “A Time to Speak" Panel 2014
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- Опубликовано: 21 мар 2022
- Excerpt from: “A Time to Speak” panel:
DECEMBER 16, 2014
thewitnessbcc.com/time-to-spe...
The museum was the site of the “A Time to Speak” dialogue on race, as Bryan Loritts-pastor of Fellowship Memphis-co-sponsored a panel discussion on race, the church and where we go from here.
The panel was moderated by Ed Stetzer. Panelists for the discussion included John Piper, Thabiti Anyabwile, Voddie Baucham, Darrin Patrick, Matt Chandler, Bryan Loritts, Albert Tate, Trillia Newbell, Eric Mason and Derwin Gray. Many of the panelists are reformed voices who have either appeared on RAAN’s Pass The Mic podcast or contributed to content on our site.
The dialogue was both edifying and insightful. Here are some of the more poignant moments from each of the panelists.
Full video:
• A Time To Speak (Memph...
Whether you agree with Voddie or Thabiti, I think we can all agree this is a better model of how to disagree than what we usually see in our culture.
There is no "racism."
T habit I has remained the same, gracious man. Voddie is a fear Monterey. Thabiti did the right thing breaking away from mainstream evangelicalism.
The commies are selling you the same rich white slavery they have everywhere for generations. They prey on the weak minded. Like you.
Absolutely! I also appreciate how the moderator had people of different opinions. Usually I have seen Voddie onstage with other like minded people and not people that will push back on some of his conclusions
@@stowash03 then you don't know anything about him lol
Hes been on CNN and all kinds of stuff.
Voddie said “The question needs to be more specific than that because their is no system that is inherently just”. What a🔥 response.
Voddie is head and shoulders above all the men here, with regards to truth. Head and shoulders. Anyabwile doesn't see the truth, he is caught up in false narratives.
Totally agree with you. I'm so glad Voddie wrote Fault Lines. Most of all, thank God for not taking Voddie home yet.
@@wiekhiongwong548
Amen 🙏🏾
Absolutely
Absolutely amen well said
@@wiekhiongwong548 Voddie is great his series on revelation really opened my eyes to what i believe.
Ed Stetzer has thoroughly proved himself a wolf since this.
My best summary of the conversation is that
Thabiti... in allowing for the systemic idea of racism, this opens up the possibility of the goalposts being continually changed... and the focus on empathy means a focus on feelings which opens us us further to manipulation.
Voddie..... we need to have a standard, thus the distinction between personal racism and systemic racism is valid as an idea... seeing sin as the problem and seeing a group of people as the problem are two different things.... furthermore I don't think mr. Thabiti takes into account that not everyone is as level-headed as him.
Respect to both men
There’s no such thing as systemic racism in America. Show me one lol that’s inherently racist
“Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.”
Galatians 6:7 NKJV
This dialogue is so incredible! I love this. And although I see so many comments praising Voddie (and I agree that a lot of his comments and responses were valid), I believe that most have failed to truly see and hear Thabidi’s heart. I thank God for his ministry and his perspective.
You need to be lied to. He has nothing to do with God or the bible lol anyone who has a little clue knows that. Total fake.
@@uncasunga1800 Total fake? Are you really serious right now? Your comment makes no sense and you come off as ignorant and without discernment or the unction of the Holy Spirit. Maybe you should go read some more, or better yet you can pray and actually seek Gods wisdom and clarity 🤷🏽♂️.
Basically it boils down to “They will know we are Christians by the love we have for one another”. Love prefers others before themselves. I think it’s important to not minimize others hurts and struggles. But be willing to listen and love without a chip on your shoulder. Ppl aren’t BLAMING anyone but pleading to be understood and treated equally on ALL levels. So we as Christians must learn what live really means. Love unconditionally in all situations.
One thing that I cannot understand is how republican leaders gain so much RABID support with their ignorance of racism/responsibility and--in some cases--obvious racist talking points! I get how you may not have any choice but to vote for them(because of the demoncrats), but they don't exactly have to be on fire about it! Almost like they had some sort of hypnotic pitch--when racist philosophy gets people to hate people without cause! It's almost as if they got the right leader in place they'd attempt to go back to Jim Crow or even slavery! This one thing is very, very evil and most of the republican voters seem to be on board with this thinking!
Thabiti is correct that remembering someone is different than lionizing that person. The problem is that Mike Brown was lionized, not remembered, by the press and the black community and held up as a martyr of injustice when that was not the case. Even Eric Holder found that to be true. Unfortunately, the black community as a whole does not lionize men like Thomas Sowell and Robert Woodson. After being introduced to them and their work I began to search for others like them and discovered that there are many black thinkers who defy the narrative. We do the same thing in the white community. We extol the corrupt and vilify the righteous.
Yes like athletes over schoolteachers
Voddie baucham and steve lawson have the truth. Those guys are awesome.
Amen!
And yet, we lionize the thief on the cross don’t we? We lionize a murderer named Moses. We lionize a murderous, adulterer, and dead beat father named, David. We lionize Abraham and Sarah’s incest. We lionize a terrorist turned apostle named Paul. The entire Bible lionizes some of the most degenerate and loathsome people whoever walked the earth. We lionize an adulterous John F. Kennedy and the slave owning, rapist four fathers and presidents like Thomas Jefferson. Yet, we make them icons and build statues and even fight to keep monuments of confederate generals. Try again!
Calling yourselves Christians and pro-life while finding every excuse imaginable to justify police brutality is astonishing.
Interesting how Thabiti said “if I can cut through the tone in my brothers piece, I can agree with a lot of what he’s saying.” How in the world can you discern tone in a written piece?? Same type of people who infer tone in a text message due, in large part, to their own insecurity. Sad to see so many of these guys having gone off the rails. Glad Voddie has been and is still holding to truth.
Because tonality can be expressed in written form. That is a commonality in communication and written expression. That's why people say "That Poem Moved Me" or "I felt what you wrote"...if someone writes something it can cause emotion in various ways
@@danegoti8r Thanks for the reply Jared. I suppose tone can be "assumed" by the reader but I don't see how, outside of direct conversation, tone can be expressed. It seems that if someone has an agenda, they can read anything with a cognitive bias and thereby assume tone. If you and I were having a conversation that became heated, and lets say I began to raise the level of my voice, tone would be obvious and able to be objectively understood by all who were listening. To say someone wrote in a certain "tone" because the thesis of their essay/article wasn't well received by a certain reader, is dishonest. Not saying you're being dishonest but from Thabiti's reply, I believe he was. Attempting to ascribe motives where there wasn't one.
@@wef0711 So I would agree with you from the viewpoint that if you and I were having a direct conversation, I would be able to decipher and respond accordingly to your tone. However, I think we cannot be short-sided in our approach to literature or even people's commentary like essay/responses and not be laid to think that there is a level of tonality that is present. Now whether we like the tone or not, It is still plausible to say that writings of all kinds can have tones attached to them which could lead to disagreement, agreement or neither. The people that read Vodies article and agreed with what he was saying. Definitely felt his tone within the context of his writing. Those that disagree felt that something he was said and possibly the way it was crafted from his heart was not something that they agreed and/or liked. So I would surmise to say I think it's short-sided to think that tonality can only resonate with in-person conversation.
Respectfully Wes if a person wrote a piece in which they say “I hate (insert race group) I wish they all die!” Would you not be able they the words written discern the tone in which that piece was written?
@@danegoti8r You can disagree with a point without ascribing what you assume as tone of the writing. Instead of Thahibiti stating his disagreement he played the tone game.
The justice of God is never seen by those with the spirit of this world. Violent people should never be treated with kid gloves. If it's only grace alone without consequence of action, you become enablers of sin.
Grace comes only to those who repent of their sins
The GOSPEL divides humanity along that line. Someday thankfully all those people will sifted out with the chaff forever. We must speak the truth and fight the good fight now.
Without Holiness no one will see God; without repentance no one will see holiness. For then one is truly born again.
Thanks for posting! Is there a full recording of this panel and/or the event?
ruclips.net/video/c5M1Npm7x_w/видео.html
Right here: ruclips.net/video/c5M1Npm7x_w/видео.html
Good old days when this was not a heated contention among the reformed evangelical circles. Now, it has become the "avenger's civil war" which has split the community into the critical race theory camp and the scripture basis camp. Voddie discerned the dangers associated with this indoctrination way before others saw it for what it truly is. We praise God for the clarity of sound teaching.
Haha. I love how you separate CRT from scripture basis. I agree with that dichotomy. One camp is still looking to scripture and seeking true wisdom on the matter, and the other camp is the CRT camp.
@@Josh-qo7yd
And a lot of Reformed people glorify white supremacy through romancing about the confederacy and how dam right they were.....it's a glorification of a white supremacist's ethnic kingdom.
And evangelicals like MacArthur and Metaxis totally took the side of the alt right white nationalists in Charlottesville and viciously attacked the people protesting them.
Gimme a break Voddie is blowing up his clout by fear mongering. CRT is pretty wack in ways but it is simply not a threat to the gospel.
@@Superb-Owl-615 please clarify your statement. What point are you trying to make?
@@john318john Voddie is making money off speaking engagements and book sales by massagin peoples fears of a "Liberal drift" in the church. In doing this, he is strengthening people's ignorances to certain issues in society like having open, understanding conversations about race. His book fault lines has proven to (ignorantly or actively) misrepresent the CRT academics. And I don't even think CRT is great or good really I just think it is ridiculous how a bunch of people who can't even define it are scared of it. And people like Voddie, especially since he is black, are being used to justify this ignorance. There is nothing liberal or unorthodox about caring about people being treated in just, fair ways, or acknowledging that in America, you can't really say our systems exists to do this if we just let them play out. They have problems and we would do well to try to fix them. It's just not that wild of a thing to say.
It’s shameful that Voddie was throughout the panel discussion rushed, cut off, and not allotted nearly as much time as Thabiti. Where is this full debate?
Where is the full video located? Was this just scrubbed from the site?
ruclips.net/video/c5M1Npm7x_w/видео.html
Why is Voddie all by himself? Why didn’t the organizers of this include others who held his view?
They wanted to make it a fair fight ;)
Because the others on the panel are of the world.
@@Joshimitsu20 and they still couldnt haha 😄
Voddie's tone is always the same...there is no double speak with him
Voddie did not say he was glad the dude reaped what he sowed...he was just stating that as a fact...had nothing to do with race, nothing to do with him not caring...just a fact...you do stupid things, live a crime filled life...this is what caused this stuff to happen MOST of the time. No matter the race
Thiabiti said so much without really saying anything.
Thank God for Voddie
Praise God for Voddie!
I don’t think there’s much racism as it is everybody just calling everything racist.
Voodie speaks as though he’s the only Black FBA man that grew up as he did but through the blood of Jesus we overcame WS
Reap what you sow is New Testament. It is a part of the gospel.
“For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.”
Galatians 6:8
Amen
Awesome point
My oh my, how has Voddie been vindicated since this encounter...
Voddie is the man.
The fact that he was invited on FOX News says just about all one needs to know about the validity of it. I read the article and it was thoroughly littered with falsehoods. That was the problem.
He talked about fatherlessness, yet Mike Brown literally had his biological and step father in his life.
Mike Brown didn’t steal anything in that store as it later came out, the store owner admitted this.
Might want to check up on Wikipedia.
"..., Brown was recorded on camera stealing a box of Swisher Sweets cigars and forcefully shoving a Ferguson Market clerk. At 11:53, a police dispatcher reported "stealing in progress" at the Ferguson Market and described the suspect as a black male wearing a white T-shirt running toward QuikTrip. The suspect was reported as having stolen a box of Swisher cigars."
Brown was a thug, whether or not his father was actively involved with raising him.
Black fatherlessness is pervasive, and black homicide is roughly 3x higher than Hispanic homicide, 8x higher than white homicide and nearly 20x higher than Asian homicide.
Necessary conversations. I side with Voddie Baucham on this one.
I'm on your side too for this one.
Of course because he basically says white people are perfect and black Americans are subhuman animals to your racist delight.
No one ever talks about WS impact on FBA
this moderator is so freaking annoying lol
Something tells me everything annoys your puny easily distracted mind hahaha
@@uncasunga1800 God Bless you.
The Bible is clear on how to treat people. There is no debate. The church has a history of segregation. I think we are playing ourselves.
I believe that is what many so-called evangelicals have yet to come to terms with!! The historical truth of the matter
Thabiti is mixing apples and oranges, spiritual and unregenerate issues. It is unfortunate that a Christian cannot separate their carnal views for spiritual issues.
I would think we'd have some better examples of systemic racism by now
Matt Chandler can't hold a candle to Voddie and that's why he's saying nothing.
Voddie Baucham. What a blessed man!
I agree. He speaks wise words
He is the only one with an actual solution..
It’s a fine conversation… but I was flabbergasted when Thabiti critiqued Voddie’s article about “landing on the law and not the gospel”. What does he think the cry for “justice” is?
He is getting rich off white people selling his people permanent victim mentality he wants to keep his people enslaved. Voddie is advocating ACTUAL change.
The moral law of God (as opposed to the Leviticus ceremonial or legal laws) is for all people of all time and is crucial in the understanding and following of Jesus Christ. A community, nation, or world that fails to uphold and respect the law, in response to Gods grace over them through salvation from Christ, will not thrive as a genuinely Christlike community and sin will naturally overrun it. The same issue the black community sees with endemic violence in its culture/community other cultures have with sexual immorality or other sins in violations of Gods law in their culture/community. This is important to recognize and understand.
Two of my favorite men of God and Thatbiti was more rounded in the gospel message
You have no idea what the gospel is thats for sure
Outside the city are the dogs: the cowardly idolaters the unbelieving...
Those who refuse to repent
HE has ransomed for himself a PEOPLE- Race- Out of every tribe language and nation with His BLOOD! ✝
Here's a bit regarding dealing with *today*: it can be demonstrated that there is a racial component to law enforcement. Full stop. The reasons for that are not as simple as saying "racism." Voddie's right that civically, there's no solution for that-it is a reaping-and-sowing system because it's about the law. Thabiti's right because personally, the gospel demands (and I believe we all have a heart for) the individual being treated with the grace to live long enough to believe they don't have to "be that person." The breakdown of the conversation, the undertones of this one emblematically, is that the solutions are political and spiritual, the gov't and the church. But where does what solution belong to what thing? Who is responsible for accomplishing which change or who carries it out? The lack of clarity in just about every conversation on this topic ends up with people who prefer political solutions holding onto that, improperly wanting the church's responsibilities to be carried out by gov't. And some want the church to engage in a way that is a civic responsibility under law and under Paul's direction in Romans. In this way, Thabiti's right (apart from tone mattering whatsoever), that they actually agree a lot. Well, that's because they're Christians. Application is always the challenge for the wise and discerning.
We confuse personal racism with “systemic” racism
The only person this has aged well for is dr baucham..
Agreed with Voddie
Please watch "Who Changed the Sabbath" by Pastor CD Brooks
One thing I do agree with with Thabiti is that Voddie is not a subtle man! XD
But it's sad to see cultural influences so distort these guys' worldviews.
Satan convinced them that since they are black they are victim and have like a papal dispensation absolving them of their sins. Haha its crazy delusional.
That Voddie... He's been swarmed and all but yet still... Thank God for his life.
He is awesome. A true warrior.
The commies never have the guts to say 1 in 1 what they say behind his back haha
Voddie found his match in Thabiti!
I can agree with that only from the standpoint that Thabiti is truly wanting us as Christians to be honest in what see in the world around us.
@@DavidWilliams-bl8ug and then do what? what action?
Michael brown attacked the officer. Committing crime one thing but putting an putting an officers life at risk is pretty high you might not be alive
But he was shot while he was running away…so was he attacking the officer in a way that his life was threatened? No!
Voddie laying the hammer, as usual.
He is so amazing. Great evaluator and expositor.
Where’s y’all’s Bibles at?
We need these conversations without evangelicals, since they really don’t care about us.
You mean they dont want to give you free stuff and hold you accountable like everybody else hahahahha
Faker
@@uncasunga1800 Your intellectual prowess is astounding.
Voddie slays these other minor leaguers
The conversation will never be truly productive until everyone learns that the way moderns utilize the word "Race", is blatantly wrong. There is one Race, Humanity is one Race. The way the term is utilized today implies that there exists real, significant differences between Humans, as beings, and Ethnicity is just one of them. If this were scientifically accurate, "Inter Racial" marriage would never produce offspring.
Ethnicity is not Race. Religion is not Race. Nationality is not Race... Human, is your Race, and mine.
Human is a species. There are several races within the species. Just as there are different breeds among species of animal. There are differences, more than just skin tone.
This is one point on which I do disagree with Voddie.
The lines between races may be blurry, but they are real. Race is not just a social construct. Nor are different breeds in animals imaginary.
Yea the violent act of selling loose cigarettes, all called but I landed on Fox News, hmmmmmmmmm
Thabiti is completely sound in his theology. I love how his presentations are gospel driven not a part of the dog whistles for conservatism and evangelicalism!
Thabiti is very well spoken, but he is far off from truth in this one. Voddie's position is the closer to scripture of the two, but it is, sadly the minority position.
I stand with Voddie... 💯💯💯
Another confrontation of facts and feelings. When did heartfelt sentiment replace love? If someone wanted Mike Brown to grow up they should have sent his to his Drill Sergeant uncle to get some discipline.
The same people wearing their t-shirts are the same ones who weren't willing to redirect them while they were alive. Too little to late.
All race have their own racist
Does all racism affect people groups equally?
But there’s only one race. We live in a sensitive female led generation. And “racism” is a feminine topic built upon all levels of emotions.
@@littlequiver1582 No. Whites suffer it worse, as in South Africa for example. Whites were being enslaved by North Africans going back indefinitely. We are also only about 3% of the world's population.
@@Mel79205 what sources are you coming from?
@@Mel79205 But what was happening in the 80's and 90's with Apartheid!!!
no one is listening to Voddie. The man is being attacked. He is right, there is no systemic racism in the unites states, this is low hanging fruit of the worst kind. "so everything is all good now?". Silly question, and the one who asked it, knew that before he asked it.
Systemic racism does exist in America and to believe otherwise is extremely naive. And to Thabiti’s point the reason that has to be a part if this conversation is that it is impossible to solve the issue of race in America without addressing that fact and simply suggesting personal responsibility.
@@rfreeze You will need to show that we live in a systemically racist society, not simply showing that racism still exists. Those are two different things.
The burden of proof is on you to give evidence that we live in a systemically racist society; that is to say, the systems that make up our country - business, tech, the judicial system, government infrastructure etc,- are demonstrably racist.
What evidence to have to show this to be the case?
@@brba8245 I could write a thesis. But just one practical example of many is gerrymandering. Redistricting on the part of the GOP - which is primarily white - across the country (ESPECIALLY after a GOP candidate loses a race) in order to water down the vote of minorities. Thus, lawmakers that do not have the best interests of given communities wind up in office - creating laws and public policies. Again, just one example of many issues that form a system in aggregate.
@@rfreeze Systems Rodney, Systems. Your taking an example of gerrymandering by the GOP and using it to paint it across the systems of the unites states. Again, the Systems need to be show to be inherently racist against minorities - Business in America, The judicial system, Commerce, Construction, trade, tech.
You're making a massive claim about a country, that in 2008 and 2012 was 70% white yet voted a black president into office, not once but twice.
Gerrymandering and the GOP does not show that Systemic racism exists in the country, nor does it prove or show that voter redistricting is inherently racist.
@@brba8245 That is a system when connected to the many other examples like it. System is defined as: “a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network.”
Again, I cannot write a thesis on RUclips but gerrymandering is just *one* component of that system.
Another example to humor you - within that system - is unjust sentencing laws that target black community….as in the countless number of black folks in prison as we speak on marijuana charges which has/had harsher prison sentences - than cocaine charges (which is a hard core drug and marijuana is not) - because of course more white people use/are in possession of cocaine than black people. When you connect this with gerrymandering, gentrification, discriminatory promotions in work place and on and on the list goes - that becomes the system to which I and others refer. Racism is systemic - plain and simple.
I understood what Thabiti was pointing out. I also think his tone & language was balanced in grace and truth. Voddie is able to make solid points however, does not respond in love, grace and empathy. John 13:33-35 reveals to us Christ's words to His disciples just before His crucifixion to redeem me and you from our sins. JESUS said, "A new command I give you, "Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
Our devotion to the Lord as Christians, requires us to be empathetic in our approach even as we speak out truth.
You are being selective. There are plenty of places in the Bible where you are commanded and instructed to stop the mouths of those not speaking truthfully.
History has played out to show who on that panel is orthodox and who is not. Voddie is definitely one of those who is.
Part of love is discipline, and when it comes to upholding the word, truth, scripture, and Gospel with fellow believers Voddie rightfully utilizes that tone. Would you call it love if someone deceived and lied to you with a caring and kind tone??
You are no Christian and you have no idea what Love is.
Without accountability there is no love. Voddie has a love you clearly have never understood nor had.
We must repent and be born of the Spirit.
If we would judge ourselves we would not need to be judged.
And all the people on earth cried out to the rock and hills" Fall on Us" for now is come the great day of the Lord and who can stand?
Voddie is buck dancing again. I try to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he engages in Stepin Fetchit behavior too often.
Thabiti speaking without blinders like Voddie
In the past two years have proven that he may not even be Christian.
@@scott5654 How in the world do you come to that conclusion?
@@Superb-Owl-615 space cadet no one who knows what Christian means would ever consider that fake communist mouthpiece a christian hahahahaha
What cult are you in? You are very detached and weak minded
God has blinded your eyes in fact and opened Voddies. He has the Gospel your leftwing commie pawn propaganda regurgitator has onyl the same offer of slavery that has enslaved his people to rich white oligarchs and mainly gangs drugs and violence.
@@Superb-Owl-615 there is nothing even remotely christian about anything that creepy extremist fake says or does
Voddie is wrong. Love majority of his teaching but he is dead wrong here
Please explain why you think Voddie is dead wrong?
Jesus is alive..
How is he wrong? He talks sense. Give an example of how he is wrong.
@@Mel79205 Because it is not endemic of the total black community!!!
There are faults in Voddie's argument. But we need to have this conversation!!!
Voddie is good on scripture. But terrible on the idea of racism 🤦🏽♂️
I could give you eternity, and you could never prove that. Actually, you are being untruthful.
Is scripture insufficient on this topic? Do we need external philosophies to understand these things?
Actually you are clueless on both.
Anyone who any bible verses in context would be like a genius compared to you and all you want is justification for self pity and to remain avoiding accountability.
Obvious
You have no sense