Tune YOUR PIDs w/ NEW Sliders
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- A log review with recommendations using the new PID sliders in BF Configurator 10.6.
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Being listening to JB trying to understand PID and this is the best explanation i ever had on PID examples and explanation
The Spring and Shock Analogy..... Thank you so much. Makes a ton more sense to me when you put it that way Thanks!
Great explanation with the car analogy and all. Mark, as much as I love the tinkering in this hobby - I'm glad they're coming up with the sliders...
I've been sponging-up all this stuff basically for the last three years and I can still barely tell what I'm even looking at. ;D
Best tech quad channel on RUclips.
Awesome stuff to see. I've been doing the math... Never considered to even ask for sliders
WOW. The way you explained this is perfect for me. thank you very much, great job.
Great vid Mark! Always learn something new from your vids, or help reinstate what I thought I knew. If the gyro exactly tracks set point, we're done! love the new configurator!
I've been doing this a while and even still I sometimes have to think about whats doing what. The car strut analogy, EXCELLENT. That was the perfect layman analogy.
Incredibly helpful! Thanks!
It would be awesome if they had a fine tune slider for roll,pitch and yaw...... I love how the sliders make it real easy to keep everything moving together
I get the shock analogy. I need short and sweet explanation for each slider. Thanks 🙏 I forgot to add..Yes!! This helped
Awesome simply explained. I get it finally. 👍👍😁thanks brother. I can finally start moving stuff in BF LOL
I would love to see a video where you take your "manual" 2s 75mm tune (other video) and translate that into these sliders. The manual tune flies awesome for me but and I can't get the sliders to perform the same. Especially more propwash when recovery from a split-s. I've mainly focussed on getting the P/D ratio the same, there are basically two slider setting that get close. When I do this the I-term values skyrocket. They go to values of 100-150. Thanks for your awesome content!!
Sliders are the quick and dirty, centered around a 5", 6S rig default. The manual tuning process is a more refined process; a per axis tune.
I somewhat covered in tiny.cc/pidtuning
Basically, if you tuned per axis, I would not convert.back to sliders.
I remember first time I looked at black box I was like I never can figure out what is going on here 3 years past still bad at it but at least know what the heck is happening thanks to you and j.b
Thank you for sharing your knowledge as always. 🙏🙏🙏
I had been having on my quads after updating to betaflight 4.0.x. I couldn't get rid of my bad twitchies and vibrations of my quads. But finally I could get rid of those after watching this video.🔥
I'm not english speaker, so needed to watch your videos with x0.5 speed.😆
And needed to watch again and again. But I could that! Thank you so much UAV tech! 🙏🙏🙏
(sorry poor my english.)
I think YT can automatically do captions to your selected language if that helps.
Wow, thank you UAV Tech!🔥
I didn't know about that translate feature.
Now I could set that. I really really appreciate it.🙏🙏🙏
Coming from a background in game programming I've always wondered: Why isn't there any run/fly-time algorithm to optimize thse PID values as you fly? There are so many ways of going about implmentaiton-wise, through genetic algorithms, neural networks or something custom. It's an optimization problem, computers are great at those.
I recall there being some sort of self-tune feature using the Blackbox logs, where one uploads this somewhere and suggested PID values are provided. The requirement was using new props and the center of gravity as centered as possible.
www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?2953533-Betaflight-PID-Analyzer
Something sort of like this
Great vid as always!
This really helps Mark. Thanks so much for this video. I’ve learned so much from all of your content. Respect.
Another superb vid. 🤟
You explain this and i get it. In under 12 min. Thank you!
Thank you, Great video's.
Great explanation, thanks again. Wil swicht to BF 4.1 asap.
Awesome mark!! Inspired to go and tune and play
Fantastic, dude! Thanks a lot for all the tips! 😃
omg... so well explained.
I hope the sliders will be implemented also to OSD. I love the simplicity of sliders, but it's annoying to walk back to computer for each change.
Get the CLRacing bluetooth to USB OTG adapter, and use Speedybee to to set the sliders over bluetooth, from your phone! They just updated Speedybee to support 4.1 sliders, works great!
@@protonus Speedy Bee i pay here in Spain 6 Euros :-)))))
There is Official Betaflight for Android (USB OTG) for free. Check releases: github.com/betaflight/betaflight-configurator/releases cheers!
Awesome !
Very informative video, thank you very much. It is the first time i have so much trouble to tune a quad (bf 4.1 with rpm filters). A freestyle one. I get a really noticeable bounce back at the end of sharp rolls or flips . If i mess a lot with the pid i get hot motors. I am setting up an other quad, racer, and motors don't even get warm and there is no bounce back at all. Don't know what to say!
Your fat quad suffers from I-term bounceback. So set i-Term relax cutoff to 10 instead of 20. Check out Step #2 of my PID Principals series at: ruclips.net/video/IfEa0My7hcU/видео.html
Can you go into detail on how you would use tpa to get rid of oscillations? Also the betaflight tuning notes are a little but confusing in regards to the prop wash section. "Increase d-min or gain or both" then later in the paragraph it says "more d-min is bad for oscillations"
From the software perspective:
minimise filter delay (warning: less filter delay = less noise filtering = hotter motors)
more D is usually better (lots of D can cause hotter motors) -- D_min is the parameter to increase, and/or d_min_gain
there is a 'sweet spot' for P, neither too low nor too high = experiment
improving PID responsiveness at very low rpm can be useful on some quads (thrust linear)
D_min will only make propwash worse, not better
Oh sure its helping!! Im struggling with my quad as it's oscilatting when 0 throttle. Doesn't matter the position. If I end a roll, it pitch down and up. If I let it fall at zero throttle, it moces up and down... In the other hand it cruises very smooth haha... Thanks for your tips!! Lets see if i can do something!
do you have airmode turned on in the config tab on betaflight ? ,ive forgot to turn it on a few times myself ,your quad wont be stable at 0 throttle without it
@@damonbfpv Yes! It is checked it out right now just in case haha
If Airmode is active and it is wobbling at 0 throttle you need to either raise the Master or PD Gain slider; or both.
Mostly it should be the PD Gain slider, but if it is not holding direction and is drifting, that would be Master to raise I-gain too. I would look at raising PD Gain slider first.
@@uavtech great!! Thanks a lot for taking time to answer!!
I will try raising pd gain and check how does it improves or not haha. At first I thought that it was caused because my fc being far from cg, but looks like wobbling can be corrected with PIDs.
Thanks again!
@@workshopbeastsfpv413 , I'm assuming you have played with PID to have a Critically Damped PD Balance. See tiny.cc/pidtuning
always loved your video 👍
Fantastic vid
I need to get outside and test my new quad. Too small in hotel trying to test
very useful!
3:50 I searched everywhere for my phone. Thought someone would call me :D
Wasn't just me then :)
@@halohub101 what's ringing? Caused an argument 😂
3rd
p = agressive
I = reach setpoint
D = the speed of the response
Be careful with D. If you have overshoot and you have agressive P. Balance D and P then rework I.
Remember that its all about the feed back and the error sent to the system
P(e +eitegral(de) + dde/dt)
So if you have good feedback to begin with you will attain maximu controller efficiency.
You are multiplying the error
You are integrating the error
You are taking the derivative of the error
Its always windy where I live so I get a lot of low freq. vibration in level flight just from the wind. What setting can I change to reduce that?
yeah, I am interested in that too
increase you PD Gain together (keeping ratio). Wind is like prop wash.
Whoah big changes visually!!! Does this change how you would normally tune??? Like I’m your previous videos???
Nope. Same process.
Excellent info... on a slightly different question. I am having trouble getting blackbox to read the twin Gyro info from the Iflight twin g boards.. it loads the info but I see no Gyro info when playing the feed.. do you have any ideas how I can get it to work correctly please..
Great stuff man, really excited for the new 4.1 features and interface. Do you have any plans for a video about tuning micros? Or general guidelines for how they differ from a 5"? It seems like the defaults are overtuned for the 3" micro reverb I just built. If I turn on MORE filtering from default - 0.7 on gyro/d-term sliders - I get very bad oscillations and fly-aways unless I drop the p/d gains down a lot as well. No oscillations with default p/d gains and gyro/d-term filtering at 1.4. Isn't that backwards from what the interface is telling me should happen?
Unfortunately a lot of filtering can also make the pids "ring", because they are too far back in time, so when it needs to go "down" the it's still saying "up".. and that also makes a feedback loop.
The right amount of filtering depends on how fast whole system can respond to change, same as pids.
Thanks @@bizmar, that makes a lot of sense. I thought it may have had something to do with the delay but couldn't figure out in what way. I was trying to increase filtering to get lower motor temps but it just made things worse O_O
Interesting concept with the sliders. I could see it being useful once we get used to it because I do try to keep certain ratios across pitch and roll axes. Isn't 1250us 25% throttle though rather than 12.5%?
Yes, sorry. Oops.
@@uavtech No worries man. Thanks for these in depth dives into the new features and PID tuning stuff.
Hi
I am having the problem with my quad. again and again props are breaking/exploding. On one hand I have the impression that there was a problem with some of the props on the other hand I felt that the arms of my frame lost some torsion stiffness which i thought could lead to resonance and cause the props to explode. I reinforced the arms with carbon and at the beginning it looked good. but then props started exploding again. I recorded some of the flights including blackbox files but I am really not good in analyzing them yet. from your videos I know that you are the pro in reading blackbox files. could you probably have a look at the recording to find out, where the problem comes from. I am happy to send you a pm to share the video and blackbox file. Thank you very much.
I've been getting a massive loose wobble after I let off throttle on some of my race rigs. I originally thought it was a certain fc but it keeps happening again with the race wiki dump. Do you maybe think it's the d min too low? This video has given me that idea as I can't get rid of it by adjusting the anti gravity. Thank you for any help and great content as always 👍
Yep. Lower PD Balance slider.
Thank you for all the information. Is there any chance you could do a 4.1 tune using bi-directional Dshot on a tinywhoop or toothpick size build? I've been trying like crazy to get rid of hard cornering flutters, but can't seem to get it done. None of the flight controllers for these size quads have blackbox logging onboard.
Turn down the PD Balance slider. But yes, i have started recording.
@@uavtech Thanks. I'll try that.
DEMON GAINZ
Very good explaination. BUT how should I understand the car analogy when my 5'' Chamelon starts having slight vibrations, only visible on the GoPro ? (but good behaviours apart that)
Whelp, for that you need to know more.
So, is the vib all the time? Can you log it?
@@uavtech Very light vib at all time with HQProp 5x4.3X3, despite good handling. With Cyclone T5045C, no vib at all... I never tried to log as this is chinese to me :) Maybe this hint is enough to guess why ? My hardware is clean.
@@alexc3330 , bingo. It is the props.
U tuned for the T5046s?
@@uavtech Well, I copied the settings, as I'm not confident with guessing PIDs
@@alexc3330 , tune it. :-)
ruclips.net/p/PLcYNkvInloJFbZmLf_X72M3fEZB-BKkiQ
OR
Tiny.cc/pidtuning
I've been tuning this quad going on a week now. I've gotten to the point where I only get this nasty bounce back when I do a sharp roll on low throttle. Air mode enabled. Running 4.1. This has been the hardest time I've ever had. No matter how high or low p to d or high p low d, nothing. Same result? Anyone have any ideas. I feel I've tried everything. I checked everything from a physical state also. Everything solid. FC dampened nice
Did you set i-Term relax to 10?
Being new to tuning my firs5 question is if you were to have a perfectly tuned quad would everyone who would try that quad think it is spot on?(freestyle quad for one group. And a racer for the other group). Or is a lot of it personal feel? 2nd. Say you have a perfect tune on a mass produced quad. Would all of the quads then fly the same if the tune was the same and props and equipment??
Tracking Setpoint is perfection plain and simple from a tuning standpoint. You want that as a goal and then adjust rates to desired feel.
Same exact quad, same exact equipment (emphasis on EXACT) will give you very similar results. As it flies, every quad may wear differently. The biggest variations I've seen between very similar quads is the raw noise profiles. But from a pid training standpoint as long as it's about the same power to weight ratio per axis then you should get about the same result.
Nice edition, with the sliders in the configurator..
It kind of reminds me of the "presets" from the f1 configurator. Perhaps bf devs could come up with some uavtech, high power, low power quad presets.
Even though I understand that pid's should be adjusted to each individual quad.
I have a dc3 with an f7 dual gyro board. I thought I could run 8k 8k for my rpm filtering, but with the tasks command, while it often shows 7999, it shows a max load of 65-80%. Should I run lower speeds? Also, thanks for your work it’s helped a lot, it’s just hard to get a perfect tune lol
60% - 80% is ok on PID / Gyro task alone. But not on overall. So you are fine.
Hi Mark, i watched your PID tunning videos many times. What i understood is that i need to set up my drone's P/D balance first, then P/D gain to reduce propwash. I do exactly what you do during PID tuning. As soon as i increase P/D gain to 1.3 or more, there is a big spike around 68hz. And the sound of motors changes. Could you please tell me how to reduce or get rid of that spike?Thanks
Filter setup is like yours.Around 1.5
If at 1.3, it is probably you D gain limit then.
If you reduce filtering, you may be able to push a little further, but you are close to the edge.
Great video! I have a Dalrc F405 and my 5 inch quad was flying with BF 4.0. I did a full chip erase to BF 4.1RC3 and now the motors spin when I arm but when I increase throttle it just flips over on the ground or bounces. I used the PIDs from this video. I am a LOS pilot so I enabled I term rotation too. Could that cause an issue? Also, I checked my props orientation and there is not a problem there.
Check that the quad in the Configurator move the right way when you move the real quad in your hand. Sounds like board orentiation is wrong.
@@uavtech I forgot to remap my motors when I did a full chip erase haha. Thanks for the info though. Would you recommend these pids if I fly LOS and its a 5 inch quad?
Hey there, I'm sorry I just have a simple question. If I am running 4.1rc1 can I upgrade the firmware to 4.1rc2 with the full chip erase ticker unclicked. I tried it on my trial board. Had my full setup on it, then upgraded to 4.1rc2 without full chip erase. Dumped the cli, and compared in notepad ++. Perfect match besides 1 name change, and a added line in the new dump. I don't see any issues with the dump, and all the config sesttings stayed correctly. Thanks for your time. -Brandon
I'd suggest using "diff all" instead of a dump. Updating with just leaving full chip erase unticked is fine unless they have a change to the configuration that gets saved on the board. Like if a parameter is added
hello im using 5inchquad. i watched other vids and found out that motors get hotter if D is high? so what should be the safest or MAX number for D?
it depends on voltage, motor size, prop pitch, outdoor temps, and quad power to weight ratio.
not me, im a jedi and i run before you throw the brick. Also, you were holding a brick and looked angry :)
can please elaborate on tpa and tpa breakpoint....
ruclips.net/video/tKxrACLMppU/видео.html
default TPA is 0.65 at 1250 in BF4.1
Oh. Humm... loom at that.
How can I make my gyro trace and setpoint to be the same..
Tuning guide at: drive.google.com/file/d/1WxgSUsG6UnvXjyxJSsAdw9iqoO21Ddmq/view?usp=sharing
So all the Feel is done in the rates... And other
after a proper tune, yup.
I am running 10.6 and just flashed to 4.1RC but i dont have the sliders? i clicked the button to turn off expert tuning but it reverts back instantly. any idea why? i posted in the discord also. thanks
You don't have the sliders at all, or are they greyed out?
If you manually change a pid value the sliders disable since the ratios are off after that. You can switch to another profile and see if they come back. Find the odd value and change it back and they'll reappear. The newer build acts different and will be out soon.
Pippi FPV not there at all.
Mechotronic all the values should be default. I haven’t changed anything. Next to the pod/rate/filter tabs there is a toggle switch to enable expert running mode. When I click that it asks to confirm turning off expert running and says it will revert back to all default profile settings. But it never shows the sliders.
@@JoeA12212 maybe you should try a more recent version.. I use the build from tiny.Cc/uavtech
how do i get bf 10.6
Coming out soon official, but for now you can download at tiny.cc/uavtech
@@uavtech thank you .which do i use i have mambaf722 and mambaf722 legacy
@@thomasbyrdjr2483 , which target?
@@uavtech it says mambaf722 ...what is the legacy one never seen it before
@@uavtech how do i turn on rpm filters on my mamba 506 esc
At this point it looks like I will never leave 3.5.7
Why are the devs moving in the direction of needing more intervention rather than less from default settings not to smoke your components?
Hoping they will do a fork and come out with a 3.5.8
Ummmm what? Defaults don't smoke motors. Get it together. We can't filter the crap out of your mess if it is hot on 4.0.1 +. Yes, 4.0.0 was too aggressive with the BiQUADs which have a sharper roll off and don't filter down low enough, but that was changed like 3 months ago. Come'on man.
4.1.0 is back to PT1 filters defaults too (like 3.5.7). Hopefully with sliders folks can expand their horizons beyond defaults flying. They are missing out potentially (depends on quad).
Tip: 3.5.7 is really not that good. I can point out shortcoming if anyone needs. It is easy and there are a lot of them.
Just flash 4.1 and try the defaults.