Diablo 2 Is An Unbeatable Masterpiece
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- Опубликовано: 30 июн 2024
- Why Diablo 2 Can Never Happen Again. Very often the arpg genre refers to diablo 2 when talking about diablo 3 diablo 4 path of exile or even last epoch. Why cant this level of game be delivered?
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Игры
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After fully completing Diablo 2, it is one of the best games ever made. Why do YOU think these level of games aren't continually being pumped out?
It is because, instead of taking the literal successes of Diablo 1/2/3 they are trying to interpret and convert the fundamentals of the game into "Modern Times". They take something like the item hunt in diablo 2 and instead of looking at all the items and moving them to diablo 4 they are breaking it down into categories like -build defining -rare -tiers of rarity. Then they are losing the plot of the actual good design decisions in diablo 2 by running them through the current Blizzard filter. You can see this with Mythic Uniques, they thought RARER meant more desirable but, they made them so rare nobody gave a shit about them at launch. They are repeating the same mistakes others have already made.
It is a perfect example of how they are doing Business Manager style interpretations of actual good design decisions and since they don't have a good basis of knowledge they are trying to recreate fire with all the wrong ingredients. Add in the concept of creating things that can be marketable and whatever injections they put into their games and you get Diablo 4.
If the project lead of Diablo 4 played 10,000 hours of diablo 1/2/3 throughout the years and had an engineering/analyst style understanding of what specifically is good about Diablo 1/2/3 there would have been a better product at launch.
This also is partly the communities fault because, I personally remember trying to break down what was good in diablo 2 as easy to understand fundamentals not realizing they would be misinterpreted by managers. Things like "Meaningful decisions" etc etc. we all assumed would be interpreted through eyes of similar gaming experience and that just wasn't the case.
The issue is PoE created an end-game expectation for content. This shifted the focus from the journey to the destination for ARPGs. What makes D2 so good, as you have fun at level 5 like you do at level 90. People enjoyed the journey from start to finish - nowadays, please want to skip or remove the journey in favor of basically grinding greater rifts at optimal speeds/builds. Finally, people wanting less of a social experience and more of a SSF experience removes the shared experiences that make games special and further crystalize the need for efficiency and optimization.
@ACiDRiFT7 this comment is automatically wrong. He included D3 is "successful " diablo genres. D3 ruined the diablo franchise
A big part of it really is the sense of accomplishment. New games have a much harder time with it. Due to spoilers and build guides, you either just outclass everything and it's easy mode, or it's deemed too hard, or too few meaningful rewards. Finding the perfect balance that rewards you without trivializing the game is nearly impossible.
I feel lured by this video. Interesting discussion, but needs more d2 love
D2 back in 2001-2006 you had to fucking be there man
Patch 1.09 was peak gaming for me
I missed out on so many girls because of this game. Was fucking crack.
@@shaolin6150 i extended my uni grad :)
I remember finding 2 Arkaine's valors during a night of magic finding with my friend in those days. We were jump around like we were rich haha
@@shaolin6150fucking truth 😂
It will never happen again, because D2 was made by a different studio (Blizzard North) and back then games weren't made with "how are we going to keep our players playing our game for years and years on end with Seasonal content". This wasn't a thing..it was just to make a game fun to play..that's it.
Funny how D2 wasn't designed to have new content every other month yet the game has kept me playing in for 20 years now
Well, there's this game called Grim Dawn, in which is the spiritual successor of Diablo 2 -- and one of the main leads also was one of the main designers for Blizzard North.
terrible take
@@vividly94 I like Grim dawn but at the same time it has its issues. Really wish they'd make a Grim Dawn 2 already and really focus on improving the great things about Grim Dawn, while changing up previously mentioned issues.
@@vividly94 Grim dawn was just a better titan quest for me.
Also, these games came out when the internet was still in it's infancy, and content creators/youtube/guides didn't really exist.
What this means, is EVERYONE had to play and learn the games themselves.
Sadly, people rarely do that anymore.
Oof true that I don't even look up noting but games can't do much change unless they it's VR but VR ain't my thing, I guess that's why people just want remakes or 2d remakes or pixelated downs.
I always say that... lol... content creators and guides at some level just "ruin the experience" of games in general but arpgs games that are made for players to experiment try new things "the RPG element"... man... they just obliterate this experience since everyone plays with guides and games become so complex to a level were you cant play them properly without it... now game devs have to watch the content creators to create their games or the game is dead... for example how many people understand the paragon boards in D4 an take their own choices there... Everyone asked for complexity but in the end no one play that portion of the game just copy and paste... a content for content creators and mathematicians and PHDs goes into PoE... And that's why Diablo 1 is my favorite Diablo game! (I was there when the game launched playing without internet happy when struggle to death and having to create a new char!
Cause games these days are time consuming and complicated. Like I spend hours to learn what each passiv in d4 does when I have 3 hours a day to play, if any.
I remember playing D2, and not knowing the cow level existed. A kid at school was playing and we became friends. His character was level 70 something, and I asked, "how did you get that high?" He showed me the cow level and that was it. I had level 90 characters and killing cows all day. Learning things from word of mouth was awesome and is gone today.
This
Games used to be atmospheric. I don't feel that now. Seems games lost the soul.
Its not games that changed but you. When I was playing Diablo 1 I was hyper focused on that. I remember I screemed like little girl when I heard "Uhh fresh meat!" or the first time. Now Im playing on one monitor and watching youtube on the other one. We know whole builds we will be playing before we start playing the game. It is completly differend mindset. Plus there is a dierence between how 12 year old kid sees games than 40 old prick...
@@pvkwtko8"We know whole builds we will be playing before we start playing the game"
I guess, I've found the problem here.
You don't need to min max game before it comes out...😂
@@pvkwtko8 Nothing like this. Even now, playing old games, I feel the same way as then. This is simply not the case in new games. Modern games do not touch the soul, with rare exceptions.
@@vyktorzhuravlev8304 that's bs. There are plenty modern and atmopsheric games. Just not the mainstream bs.
@@pvkwtko8 No Diablo 1 and 2 still have the same affect on me as they did when I played them as a kid. It felt like there was more to lose in D1 because you could die easily and had limited options for how you could fight so you had to play smarter and had something real to lose cuz if you died when you didn't save soon before that you lost game progress. In D2 I always dreaded the fight w/Duriel b/c he was really the hardest boss in the game and if you died in there, you'd always lose all of your equipped equipment so I had to have a back up set to put on from town just to go back and retrieve the body quickly before Duriel kills me again and you always had to get that town portal set up as soon as you're in side to try to prevent him from killing you b/c the potions never were enough. The stakes were higher, the music was very suspenseful, and the theme was just overall more on point and gameplay was more straightforward. Games now just seek to complicate things more and more and that's not what makes a good game. We need a return to more simple games as they're more relaxing to play instead of stressing whether or not I did my build right constantly.
I just wish D4 stuck with the D2 itemization. Personally I think the itemization in D2 minus a few OP runewords is the best itemization in any ARPG. PoE does it pretty well too. I absolutely hate smart loot that you can only find items for the class you are playing instead of finding other awesome items for other classes that you can trade or even start up that character so you can use it. I also think that getting rid of magic find would also be a good thing. Maybe develop an algorithm that calculates how difficult an enemy is based off it's affixes or if its a hard boss/ unique mob and calculate it's independent magic find based off the difficulty the game thinks the mob is would be really cool IMO. Edit: Another good thing about itemization that is absent in D4 is item bases. Item bases give individual items reasons to be picked up PoE does item bases very well. Thicket bow higher attack speed, Vaal axe 25% maim on hit etc. why move away from something that was perfected.
This is 100% true
exactly man us D2 players should be listened to D3 was shit and D4 is following suite
DIablo 4 should have been Diablo 2 with larger and more intricate skill trees (it is not), similiar itemization and just more and better quality of everything.
It would have been a insane success.
Now? It is a live service bullshit game with some seriously questionable design choices (see its current skill trees and many of the questionable choices in each class design).
what d2 is superior to d3 and d4 is that itemization during early and mid and late game is absolutely amazing. Criticism of d2 is just end game, something I have never even played.
💯. Thing that keeps me playing is item hunting, not the great story or anything else. Doing runs and dropping something really cool is what made it the best. It’s hard to believe they can’t get that right. I think they are stuck on making any item be able to be anything to add value to cash shop cosmetics.
I was lucky enough to be in my early 40's now and got the chance in real time play golden era of Blizzard games when they first came out.
i will be 40 this year and as hard as it is not looking at it with a certain bias, i truly feel our age group got the best experience for gaming.
@@OnwardSN it does seem gaming grew up with us.
I got a Nintendo in 2nd grade, an SNES in 5th grade, PC in 7th grade and PS1 in 9th.
So as the games evolved from kiddie side scrollers to horror and more complex games, we aged accordingly.
I remember people thinking the StarCraft players models were Moderators or hackers in the lobby room.
I'm right there with you, man...
Diablo 2's itemization is genius tho. Sure there is plenty of 'useless items, but the way how yellow items can be insanely good, same with crafted items. Blue items can even be bis, like the 40% MF ring. Charms/Jewels add that dopamine effect, there is always something to find and ID even tho 99% of the time it's shit, but it doesnt matter since you might get lucky and find something insanely good. Hell, even fucking white/grey items can be worth alot if you find the right base for your runewords. There is ALWAYS something to look for, so you don't feel like you 'wasting' your time. It's honestly such a shame the Diablo 4 team didn't implement some of the itemization from D2. To this day it's probably the best itemization of any ARPG imo.
Hit the nail on the head brother. Goddamn I loved farmin the council back in the day... Then key farming so I could get torches. D2r was awesome to.
Very true. Even with D4’s itemization rework, I still feel like I’m collecting garbage getting into late game. It’s much, much better than previous seasons, but no where close to D2’s loot that’s always interesting.
Exactly and most people fundamentally don't understand why D2's loot system is the best, its not perfect, the rune word meta needed to be tuned but there a reason why people have played this game for decade's and the loot system is a huge part of it. I think you can't really get an understanding about how great it is without beating the game in hell mode and having an 80+ character. It remains unsurpassed and Blizzard are fools for not basing their sequels around it.
This is exactly right. Every item type from grey, white, blue, yellow, gold, green, orange, and runeword all have their place. The balance isn't perfect and there are systems that were left behind, but overall it still holds up really well in a way that keeps people wanting to play.
The drop rates in D2 were so low that most players go years before ever finding a unique they need and the grind made it feel like you’re hitting a wall. I don’t think the nostalgia of D2 lessens the need of a modern Diablo game. D3 and DI were disappointing but D4 not as disappointing so there’s hope by season 6, D4 will be the king of ARPGs
That`s so much BS from the devs. We don`t ask them to reinvent the wheel.
Take D2, make it 2024 graphics (that doesn`t mean 80% grey), take it's rune system, itemization, gem system, crafting system, random map generator, update/fix the skill system etc, add a new world, more bosses and that`s about it. Instant success. Literally copy&paste 90% of it systems/mechanics and update them for today's market.
We don`t play old games just for the nostalgia; we play them for fun&relaxation.
they did the Resurected.. That was great! other than ruining the fps mechanics for melee chars (because they(current d4 devs) didn't understand the mechanics behind it to why it worked like it did.)
Anyways they should have just focused all their efforts on making 4 new acts for D2, add a few items and runewords(without making something extreme OP) and that would have been all fine and great and everyone would have loved it.
@@rickarda9232already been done. Play PD2. You're welcome
agree 100% - this is what d3 should have been. d2 with a face lift and new lore. it really was all it needed.
D2 is like that iceberg meme, you think you know so much about it, but it's much deeper than that. By far the best Diablo, it's not even close.
For a game to be 20+ years old and still relevant is a testament... similar with Starcraft or Age of Empires.
There is one game that might reach this status as well - Deep Rock Galactic
not even close to the best diablo lmfao
@@farming4gStarCraft is as the legend as D2, AoE, I don’t think that great. Some people probably will be playing SC and D2 in 2500AD.
@@cloudnine5651 Ok what's the best Diablo and why? Please enlighten us.
@@yzwme586 do you seriously think i care to convice a bunch of losers on the internet that they are wrong? lmfao go back to school kid
The itemization in Diablo 2 is what sets it apart from 3 and 4. So much loot that actually means something and makes things worth picking up. Whites, blues, and even some crazy yellow items.
Poe does a pretty good job overall but it is almost too confusing. Looking forward to POE 2 and starting at ground level before it gets insanely complicated.
Seems like they've done a lot to overall reduce the amount of loot in PoE2 so that you'll be excited with finding white bases etc. here's to hoping ey!
Agreed. But there is something even more important in D2: Monster Design. In D2 you remember every single monster in the game and what they do, they all force you to adjust at least a little bit (sometimes a lot) to deal with their abilities. Almost every other ARPG, sometimes even the good ones, fail on that and whatever monster you're fighting is meaningless, it's just about whether you have enough gear to withstand the damage of that "zone's difficulty" or not. Or else you're fighting the affixes (like lasers, mortars or some nonsense) instead of what would make that type of monster really unique.
Been saying this since D4 was around the corner. All this time they had and they failed big on the item game.
I didn't enjoy itemization at all in my one and only play through of act1-10. Only thing that really mattered were skill slots and links, which to be fair is really enjoyable, but it got sort of maxed out really early.
I love when DM has a score to match the intensity of his speeches
Is that the Act 5 soundtrack? Freakn epic
Blizz had a real orchestra record the Act 5 music
I had to have a buddy drive me to Babbages in the local mall on release day because I was just 15. I guess it's time to schedule a colonoscopy.
Dude. I forgot about Babbages. I didn't even realize they turned into GameStop. I remember watching my cousin play D2 and Driver when I was like 13-14.
See you at the Drs office 😭🤣
I was 12 when the game came out. My sister had to drive me to the local brothel to pick up this game.
Items felt so important in diablo 2.
The fact a 140 defence shako vs a 141 perfect shako is literally 30X the value.
It was literally satisfying opening your inventory and knowing and seeing you got a perfect item equipped.
Any other rpg ive played, the items felt like little slot cards i could care less if i accidently dropped one.
In diablo 2, if you had a griffons, them 4 squares were straight sacred, and made you feel good to have it.
Diablo 2 is, in short, you and a slot machine turned into a video game. It's that simple. It's all about the items. There aren't hundreds and hundreds of numbers like Diablo 4. Even the endgame is almost non-existent. You can upgrade numbers to increase the chances of item drops, but little else. All the builds work. They're all great to play. And even if you repeat the same scenario thousands of times, you always want one more run. You keep playing because it's fun. That's it.
I've been playing Diablo 2 for over 20 years. Not only my "safe place" when I don't know what to play, but I consider it a perfect game because it's always there whether it's for half-hour sessions, several hours, or not putting it down for weeks.
Greetings from Spain
The depth of the item system of D2 was what made it so great. You had unique thst were good enough for end game, you had rare and crafted items that had the potential to be extremely good but very hard to find because of the probability. You had socketed items which could also spawn ethereal and enhanced, adding another layer of rarity. The aura system on items and combined with both the player and the mercenary added another huge aspect to the late game. Comparing all this to Diablo 4 where it feels like the game just gives you items based on your level with no real deep endgame is much less fun. Do people do holy grail hunts in D4? Plus the fact that trading and the economy was completely in the hands of the player, these are the things people want back.
my issue with d4 is that with an infinite budget and dev team they are too scared to take a swing at things, its just reskinned d3. atleast the devs at last epoch are trying things.
There's no such thing as an infinite budget.
What exactly are they trying? And how exactly are they dynamically different from what Diablo 4 tried?
@wraithflaire1639 it's hyperbole, I get it's the internet but use your head for a second. Their unique crafting, the crafting system in its self(Which d4 took inspiration from) the faction system, the way skills work, build defining items that are actually interesting and not just do x more damage because you have this item.
Bro my issue with d4 is this: they made the game and it took years. They released it to the public and within 2 days people were saying "why does t4 drop low level items that seems dumb" and it took them MONTHS to change it. When they changed it they said "oh I guess we didn't realize this was an issue". WHAT???? it took us less than a week! I un-installed that day. They have no fuckin idea what they're doing
I'd say they did originally try going in a bit of a different direction, but they released the game way too early and there was a backlash. Their method of quieting the backlash was to listen to all the D3 streamers and turn the game into what the D3 people wanted rather than stick to their guns and keep going in the direction they were going.
D2 is a timeless classic for various reasons, pivotal being as others have said of focusing on it being a good game over player retention of making money short term for years, but also design in key facets. Sound design and music is S tier, Matt Uelmen not only did the music, he also did SFX like the gold dropping.
Division of labor is great, but having someone like him or Marty composing the music of all the Halos helps bring things together for the game's identity due to a singular vision. Imagine if Howard Shore didn't do all three LotR movies with them swapping composers like directors for the sequel Star Wars trilogy.
Too many cooks veering from a focused vision of a product-dozens of producers in an episode of TV for instance-not outlining properly wasting development time, and profit before a good game or other visual media has been rampant across the board. Diametrically opposed rationales be butting heads, we've got the budget to employ a gigantic team in all areas, and rush it out the door we'll finish it in post. All of this has lead to gaudy mediocrity in media for a decade now.
The whole premise is just wrong though. The genre has not been "figured out" there's so much room for improvement, and some of that improvement IS just returning to what made Diablo 2 such a good game. PoE 2 is bringing a lot of that, and that's why everyone is so damn excited to play it. PoE 2 is making a lot of innovations, and I think it's really safe to say even PoE 2 wont be the final form of the ARPG genre, it will continue to get better from there.
Poe is nothing like d2 tho
A D2 clone could release tomorrow that makes no big changes to the genre and everyone would be VERY satisfied. The evidence of this is in the release of D2 Resurrected.
@@MrHideyHolethats just not true. PoE 1.0 released as a D2.5. And if you released it today as is it would be considered an absolute flop. PoE launched to 34k players as a free game and was heralded as the second coming of D2. It was the defacto “D3” for many years. It has since evolved into its own thing, but none of these old games would be considered successful launching today and having 30k players.
POE was never a D2 clone in spite of the media and fanboys at the time, it was always just another ARPG. It doesn't have any of the gameplay or design that make D2 what it is. Reread my comment.
I only like d2 and cannot wait for POE2
d2 itemization is what seperates it from other ARPGs. Something like PD2 which took that itemization even further makes it the best ARPG option you can play. Every ARPG now has cookie cutter builds that will always require the same core items to play it. In D2, I can play the same skill as someone else, with the same synergies fo rthat skill, but a complete different item set based on my goals. MF build, pure damage, survivability, faster block rate, FHR, etc. That is lost in a lot of new ARPGs because everything is made into a guide and you'ret old the exact items you need for every slot. TL;DR everyone should go play PD2 if you're a fan of D2 and not a fan of modern ARPGs. It is the best combination of the best core systems and modern quality of life and end game options.
People focus a lot about D2 itemization, but the ambiance of Diablo 2 is just second to none. The music, the sound effects, the world, the lighting, the monsters.
It definitely feels like for the vast majority of things created in our day and age that it is profit versus passion. I'm not saying PoE is not a profitable company. But it took so much passion and hard work to curate such a beautiful ARPG. Diablo 4's aesthetic was also gorgeous with an incredible eye for detail. But the gameplay only recently became enjoyable and the end game is still blasé. It is about an enjoyable rich endgame that is progression based. As far as the revolutionary itemization system D2 created, that is an original. However much like the Reinassance using the same principals as the ancient Greeks and Romans, the art form can be taken to all new heights. I'm not bashing on newer games or shilling for PoE/ Elden Ring. What I am saying is that art always reveals itself.
i honestly think the way we consume information about games breaks all expectations. We watch "best Arpgs comming in 2024", then we build hype on something, then there comes trailers, early access, people consume every pixel of the new half-made game in 2 weeks and then move to the next one. It is brutal on game devs as well, not gonna lie. D2 was developed over many years and was released on a completely different era of information consumption. People needed to play over and over to discover things. Now we start a game with a "best starting guide" open on the second monitor. Crazy times
I'm glad I never pay attention to those videos. I'll check them out after I've played for a bit and feel I've discovered everything I can by myself, or if I'm struggling with certain mechanics, but otherwise I love discovering a game.
I fell into that trap with PoE for awhile trying to follow guides, and didn't really enjoy it. The moment I just started playing for myself and said screw guides, I enjoyed the game again.
they should follow D2 format and allow us to spam boss fights...The whole summoning mats things is REALLY boring gameplay loop...Just lets us ght the bosses over and over like d2 and lower the drop rates..
It's the least problem of D4
@@kekplexis but it is a problem. I dont think they insinuated it wasn't the least problem, simply that it is infact a problem. I dont understand what your reply adds to the conversation
@@evenglare my reply adds the fact that this is such a minor problem that it can be completely ignored until game's core mechanics such as itemization and progression are fixed. And who are they you're talking about?
Diablo 2 is brutally hard compared to that new crap. You got items so rare that most people playing for years wont even get the whiff of them. Its also extremely simple yet complex. No new games hits that itch anymore. They all look fancy and flashy but the very core elements are dead boring and dreadful.
Yep. I played Diablo 2 like a fiend for 10 years.
Never saw an soj, zod, hoz, or a TON of other items.
@@sephrinx4958One of the things that makes the game fun. The trading and playing with friends aspect is also something that keeps me so intrigued. Most characters cant do everything solo which is amazing.
Dude they made some items in D4 unbelievably hard to get and everyone is complaining. This community is the problem.
For real man, whenever i get the hunger to play d2 again it hooks me up for months on end grinding for that loot and upgrades thats how you know its the best ARPG ever created
@@Agon1stt Just hearing about D2 or hearing SFX from the game makes me want to go play it again. What a game, a true addiction lol.
33 Immortals, MMO mixed with roguelike style is very innovative. Played the closed beta and it was so much fun and refreshing aswell. Hope more company's try their vision with this.
innovation without imitation is a complete waste of time, and studios aren't even imitating their beloved games.
I thought D4 was going to redefine by introducing Dark Souls type play. Meaning the enemies can beat the crap out of you, but you can dodgeroll and use movement spells. They were headed in that direction, then people started bitching. They want to see thousands of things die on their screen in 5 seconds.
The problem is they release half baked games with dlc on dlc
We figured out novels a long time ago, but there are plenty of books you haven't read yet that will blow your mind. Creators, not content creators, but real creators are going to come along and push some boundaries.
with ai, I believe the future is bright for gaming as it will be easier for passionate people to push these boundaries.
ARPGs don't really resemble d2 anymore. They are all just build simulators now, with stupid seasons and endless scaling Grift style endgame and craft-to-brick loot. Somehow, the loot system in d2 (especially pre 1.10) is still the best, and the mob design and behavior is also better which is kinda shocking isn't it?
Don't get me wrong d2 has a lot of flaws (especially post 1.10) but the fact that newer ARPGs abandoned the best aspects of d2 is what surprises me to this day.
This is true
1.08 items were so busted, I loved it. Having them in 1.09 was so special because of how scarce they were
You couldn't have said it better ...."people want what they remember".
It started for me when I was around 6 years old and I discovered The Legend of Zelda. Way before computers where even around or internet until my teenage years when Diablo 1 came out. Wow I was mind-blown. The constant eagerness to wake up each morning or get home from school and on weekend to stay up all night to play was awesome. Diablo 2 soon after and bnet where we can now tap into our dial-up connection and play with the 'world' and trade with each other and explore all we can with new builds, was just so much fun!
What I remember (as some may call nostalgia) is what I miss with all these new regurgitated versions of the masterpiece D2 is. I hope some day I can relive those memories in a new innovative way. Until then I'll enjoy what we do have and my frequent dose of D2R, lol!
if you didnt play this in the early 2000's, you could never understand how crazy d2 was.
You're being super generous with the 5-6% increases. That assumes the games come out and are actually good. Look at D4 when it came out. We did not progress in 5-6%. If anything we backslid by 20%.
How did it backslid by 20%? People are just making stuff up i swear...
@@Shipdacheese Crappy itemization that made gearing obtuse ('10% chance to proc a chance to do extra damage if the target is frozen', wtf??'), uninspired builder/spender mechanic that is so hated we all run away from the very second we can because NO ONE likes to build on resources with a crappy basic skill. Just to name two.
'Oh you don't have your mana handled? Then you're forced to use potions until you got this handled'.
D4: 'yeah, I know you're surrounded by a ton of dangerous foes and running for your life, but you're out of resources so spam your 10 damage basic builder so you can use your actual skills'.
Looking at D2, D3, LE, PoE? Yeah, D4 backslid. If you don't agree with the % I gave that's just a random number. Point is it took S4 for the game to feel better (and by the end they were overdoing it) and now with S5 they are just breaking it all down to reinvent the wheel.
@@CedricDur It did take until season 4 but i feel gear is in a good place now and the 'high' you get when you actually drop a 2 GA item is good. Can it improved even further? Sure. S5 is made by the 'odd' team so...yea not good!
Because of the gear rework, the first part you just said about '10% to proc when frozen etc' is in the past. It's gone. Mana builder builds are only, (maybe) used for leveling up. If you lack mana/resource at endgame and using basic skills for this, you are doing something WRONG! Every barb/sorc/necro build does NOT need a builder anymore. What else you got? :) Even more so, i played D2 for about 15 years...if you play D4 long enough you just can't go back. The animations of the monsters/character is so superior in this game, so much so that you will probably get a mild headache if you play D2 again. D2 was an amazing game but it's the past! D3...not a fan.
@@Shipdacheese I know? I said 'at release'. Release of the game, not release of Season 4. And again, like I said, 'we get away from that mechanic as soon as we can' which just shows how reviled the builder spender mechanic is and it just made early leveling horrible. Now we get resource per second and much faster leveling so it's a lot more bearable.
I'm not even sure why it seems like we are disagreeing unless you think D4 at release was great. It would not be a common opinion to find but you would certainly be entitled to it.
Where i can watch the whole gameplay? 😊
twitch :)
idk, There are a lot of old games that I can completely lose myself in, and there are a lot of new games of the same genre that improved everything but I can't get the same level of engagement.
It's not nostalgia either, some of these old games I've never played before. there is some secret game-making sauce that you just don't see these days.
I'm currently all in on master of magic. A mix of civ and magic the gathering?
yes please!
I wish a game would come out with repeatable ladder bosses and boss specific loot like RuneScape
I’ll tell you how you can blow everyone’s mind. Make an ARPG where all the power comes from only skill trees. Add items that raise those skills. Add stats that only have minor impact to damage but important synergies to the system.
You’re welcome.
Thank you for putting my recent thoughts on newer games in to a tangible form. Almost my exact take on games lately.
No matter how advanced and amazing a game could get, nothing can take your accumulated experiences away and make something new again.
Vampire Survivors breaks your arguement
Item drops, artistic esthetics, legit challenge, scoring, everything felt earned. D2 team could have built on the genre and likely could have continued innovating the game. Blizzard nuked the entire team because the suits wanted to make it like WoW. We see scattered innovation with PoE and No Rest, but remember these studios are ex-D2 devs. Just imagine how great Diablo could have been if Blizzard just let the team do its thing.
The lack of social feature design in D4 is just mind boggling. Diablo 2 with its simple 8 player game setup and game name search somehow worked sooooooo much better.
You make a game, name it with an objective, and nearly instantly you have potential friends to start playing with...
I log in to D4 and interact with basically no one unless an actual person on my friends list is on.
Seeing people at a 'world boss' or helltide boss is the only time it feels like other players exist and It is just sad design.
I mostly agree with what you're saying but I do think there still room for ground breaking/re-invention games. The problem is these major publishers aren't willing to take risks and want to have a live service system where they make as much money as possible. What's ironic though is that with all these failed attempts at live service they'd be better off taking some risks and see if something sticks with the player base.
once you get your fill of diablo 2, project diablo 2 is a great extension.
I second this
They’re not rdy for pd2.
Mario Wonder devs talked about wanting to capture that holy shit childhood experience.
The problem - every game since has focused on bigger, louder, flashier than the game before them. Been a snowball down the wrong hill for decades. Stupid amounts of money were made along the way. Why climb back up that hill to check out the other side of it? It's pretty simple and tragic.
I think a lot of the problem is the advancement of graphics accelerated to much. These days tech changes so fast that by the time Game A launches some other company can see it and start making Game B as a clone but with flashier and prettier graphics so that is what they do. Back in the day advancements in graphics happened slower. Was not so easy to compete based on just that. You had to either wait a year or two or actually try to make a good game.
Who picked out the background symphony music? Love those french horns.
You never played D2 i see.
It is the ingame music of act 5 diablo 2.
@@Noksivs thanks!
"Over 9,000 Individuals Were Involved In The Development Of Diablo IV". Of course, people expect D2 level of upgrades. But we got D4 now, like WTF
They literally credited the entire company. There were overwatch devs Wondering why their name was in the credits
@@Kjetilstorm lol Bob asked John a question once so his name is in there too ;)
random people who did like... 1 voice acting or something, were in the credits... like calm down.
@@xSayPleasex Someone opened a door for a person on the D4 team and got credited.
All these fools defending, cut that number in half ok? Still thousands of people with infinite budget making this dumpster fire garbage of a game, even with recycled content.. what a joke, y’all lame as fk.
Great video
The no. 1 thing elder gamers want Blizz to bring back to D4 is a randomized over world map like in Diablo 1.
Have you ever Played Grim Dawn? worth trying, especially if you enjoyed D1 and 2
d2 is "hello" do whatever you want D3 D4 is "hello let me tell you what your going to do when where and why"
Watching this while playing Project Diablo 2, which is the live service version of Diablo 2. Been playing this game for 20 years.
median XL for me is how D2 lives on
Beta tested it back in the days when you had to get an actual invite. Thank you very much.
This is a bad take. For one thing, you keep mentioning "reinvention" of the genre, or basically making changes so huge they can't be considered incremental but you don't realize that at point you've essentially created a NEW genre, kinda like how at the beginning there were just RPGs and then at some point games that focused more on the action of the character rather than the story started being made and those started calling themselves ARPGs.
It's also not true that ARPGs have been figured out: POE, out of necessity to monetize itself, generated the sustainable seasonal model for ARPGs that was then adopted by D3 & D4. But more than that, through that model they constantly add layers and layers of content to the game and once in a while completely rejuvenate the endgame map system. Last Epoch has also made an innovation with their excellent crafting system that allow you to take an item with 2-3 good affixes and then craft it to fit your character, but more than that, their Circle of Fortune is a very exciting target farming mechanism and this has been recognized by players and other games alike (which is why D4 adapted a lot of their ideas in S4).
I personally think these things are more than "incremental" changes but if you don't agree then what to you might look like changes big enough to "reinvent" the genre I would probably call a new genre altogether.
There are very strong arguments to be made that the reason people feel gaming is worse is because it objectively is, as a result of becoming a large industry. Where before you had small teams being agile and running with their most interesting ideas to make mostly single player games now you have corporations that create games with the same logic as making widgets in a factory and then aim to maximize the revenue from them by selling battlepasses and MTX and sometimes having gacha mechanics, etc.
Let's compare D4 and D2 for instance. D2 was designed as a single-player game whose only revenue came from the upfront cost of the game. This means that there was no interest in making you come back again and again, season after season to extract money from you through the battlepasses and so that corporate could have strong-looking engagement metrics. Because they didn't sell MTX, all the cool art designs went on items you could get as drops in the game, whereas in D4 the only cool armor sets exist on the MTX shop. In D2 they made bosses challenging but the rewards were of great value so that you felt you accomplished something AND got a good reward for it. In D4 their system makes you farm for mats to farm bosses hundreds of times so that MAYBE you get a good item and thousands of times if you want a good item with greater affixes.
"... their Circle of Fortune is a very exciting target farming mechanism and this has been recognized by players and other games alike (which is why D4 adapted a lot of their ideas in S4). " This system is taken from POE too, It was called Prophecies, which GGG later retired.
But I do agree with your post overall, DM's take was one of his worst tbh.
Claiming that "Diablo 2 Is An Unbeatable Masterpiece", means he have not seen the whole game, which is obvious since he was currently going through the story acts when he said it. But the end-game of d2 is non existing. repeat the acts 3 times, then do Baal runs. Thats it.
And then he claims POE have only improved the genre by 5-10% by all of its additions and pioneering of end-game?... crazy.
@@Noksivs No it's not taken from Prophecies, that was a very primitive system with only a minor similarity to CoF. You had 0 control over what prophecy you got and most of them were junk not even related to items (go to area X, something something, you get a chaos orb).
CoF allows you to SELECT what type of prophecy you want to have active and thus target farm specific classes of weapons/armor/etc. There's also quite a bit of progression in the system.
While POE's prophecies had a few useful things (6L prophecy, some of the Fated Uniques), it was ultimately a repetitive, boring and undeveloped system which is why it was eventually scrapped.
Your explanation feels logical to me. 🙂
While I don't know much about genres figured out (take on fighting games for example, as they constantly change and evolve for the better or worst -- looking at you MK franchise), in Diablo 4 for instance, I did welcome the 'dash' option and I would have liked it, if it is a bit more like in souls-like games. But when faced Uber Lilith, it proved otherwise. Still, its a nice feature for an ARPG.
I did not try out Path of Exile and I have no interest in it, as I like Diablo's fantasy world in general; books, lore and story. But I did play Pillars of Eternity (the other PoE), but that is considered CRPG and character growth and power feels only similar, though choices matter more, as no respec is offered.
I for once don't feel gaming is worse, but do feel that it developed or took ways differently throughout the decades.
Titan Quest as a "Diablo-clone", or another ARPG, has similar "endgame" as Diablo 2 and its also fun, but cannot deny, for me D4's endgame activites (Uber boss content hunting, Helltides, Whisper quests, etc.) are satisfactory to spend a little time with the game.
I only miss the 'Horadric Cube' and its recipes from D2. 😛
For hardcore players, these might not be enough though.
@@Noksivs why would I play end game?
the game has ended
I'm done with it
@@snuffeldjuret Because people still find the character progression and gameplay fun.
But if the game has no fundamental end-game structure, people just continue to play the same story 3 times over (new difficulties), and then to farm gear end up doing "Baal runs" until their eyes starts bleeding.
In path of exile, once you have completed the campaign, the story continues into the mapping system, which leads you into the pinnacle bosses at the very end.
Final Fantasy 11 Online took my virginity... in 20 + years later there's nothing I can compare it to😢
Haha I played FFXI as well. I started with D2, then went to FFXI and ended with WoW before I was forced to grow up and get a job haha. Id say WoW is the closest thing to FFXI. FFXI is a very hard game compared to recent standards. You need a party to do anything worth doing. I still play FFXI on a private server thats based on CoP expansion. nothing like getting a party in Qufim or valkrum dunes and leveling a new class. Login for an hour and catching some moat carp haha. I also still play D2R as my main game but when I want something different. FFXI is where I go.
Been playing d2 on-off since I was a pre-teen, and while I enjoy D3/D4, D2 is still my favorite.
What keeps bringing me back:
○ D2 is more replayable than any other hack-n-slash dungeon crawler, because:
a) leveling is quick and enjoyable
b) the campaign is quick and enjoyable (and fun to speedrun)
c) getting gear is quick and enjoyable
d) early/mid-game gear feels powerful, and has longevity into the late game
e) itemization is highly flexible (+skills > almost everthing) due to above/below, the progression from mid->late game gear doesn't feel like a slog or horrible
f) magic finding is FUN; and all items (even rares) can be highly valuable
g) runes are abundant (some rare to find), consumable, and make early, mid, and end-game gear; making them the perfect currency to form an in-game economy around
h) runeword, rare, unique itemization affix ranges is varied and diverse enough to make it hype af when something rolls great, and like a jackpot when rolls perfect
i) the world, monsters, dungeons, and decor feels natural; neither under or overwhelming at any point
j) the music f***king slaps, and perfectly fits the setting/zone
k) The Cow Mof***king
l) "random" unique boss events (uber diablo) -> rewards annihilus
m) farmable unique boss event (uber tristram) -> rewards hellfire torches
n) Every class (especially after D2r) has multiple builds that are fun and viable on a budget
o) The skill tree is direct and straight forward (A, B, C, D skills make each other stronger by x%); there is NO guesswork in whether you are running the best talents, and you don't need a guide
p) Gameplay is generally 2-5 spammable buttons at most of extremely or no cd skills (unlike WoW with 15+ buttons and a dozen more with minute+ cds)
q) The audio and visuals are solid, clear, without clutter, and neither over or underwhelming (except mosaic assassin; RIP your eyes)
r) It takes 1/5th second to know what (if anything) you want to pick up off the ground
s) CRAFTING GG gear
t) GAMBLING GG gear
u) Maps are varied, but most are procedural or follow "rules" that make re-navigating zones easy and fun
v) elite/unique monsters are everywhere, and terror zones make every zone end-game farmable
w) Calculating damage/mitigation is simple
x) Boss Farming is quick, easy, and fun (think penny slots with occasionally ridiculous payouts)
y) There are extremely rare (but non-essential) item drops that are incredibly cool to find (I still haven't found every drop in the game)
z) The community. People help each other frequently without expecting anything in return; often times giving away exceptional gear they don't need simply because their inventory/mules are full and it's not worth the time trying to hoard/sell every item.
Don't get me wrong; it has it's own flaws.
But D2 shines due to it's simplicity; and a lot of modern games fail simply because the "fun" factor is gated behind overcomplicated systems, calculations, poor itemization, and extensive time requirements.
The majority of old D2 players I know wanted in D4 the dark hopeless battle that D2 sometimes was. You meet Duriel, and engage and he kills you before you realize what happens your first time. Now every toon you make, you have your butt clenched and are weary of a Minor Evil, Diablos brother. The runeword system was really fun and good fantasy. There was many things about D2 that we were hoping was in D4. I don't feel scared when I play D4. Latest season is pretty fun though, don't like frustrating RNG mechanics that items have to go through like 3-4 times and if one fails it bricks the entire item
This is why I'm so grateful to have had the NES as my first console back in the 80's (minus playing a friends Atari a little). The level of innovation of the tech constantly opened up new and exciting genres and complexities that simply weren't possible before and blew everyone's mind when they released.
Today's gaming environment has advantages too particularly in ease of access and cost through platforms like steam, sense of communities with the internet, and simply just how impressive the games and tech is nowadays.
Good video, just a heads up the background diablo music is kinda loud
Metroidvainia's are my jam. Engaging story, acquire news skills to defeat new enemies or bosses, which allows you to unlock more of the map. Yes its been done over and over again, but there's just something about them that appeals to me. Maybe you're right and its just something I remember from being a kid, doesn't hurt that Castlevania Symphony of the Night was my favorite game. Sprite animations nowadays are really amazing as well, shit definitely didn't look the way it does now when we were kids.
Best thing about sprite images is they tend to hold up better over time than most other game art does. Not all but most. Old sprite based games that were done well graphically still look good today. Obviously not as good as we could do today but they still look good.
I think you’re right, in that a game needs that mind blowing moments and feelings by exceeding expectations. I really really hope that Grinding Gear Games is able to pull off something similar to what Blizzard North did with D2 by truly considering interesting, innovative systems within the ARPG genre that set the bar for what ARPGs are by certain multiplier (more vs increased!). I also know that they are aware how hard it is and are aware that they only have one shot at it . Maybe if they can solve melee vs ranged play in a meaningful way?
it is just so difficult. Given how important loot is, legacy becomes so important. In diablo, you have decades or iconic items. Are there any of those in poe or is it all just rare items with correct slots and links?
Such a good analysis
I think the younger generation will not understand what you mean. Switching from 8bit gaming all the way to 128bit consoles and on PC from single player dos games to online gaming late 90s was like a new millennia for us. Games were better often multiple times than the previous instalment/generation. All the games that switched from 2D to 3D are a good example (Zelda, GTA etc)
fun thing about D2 and a game like d4 is, that people (including me) say d4 needs to have certain things and a lot of them where not present in d2. d4 needs more Endgame activities! - d2 almost no endgame activities at all - d4 needs balance ! D2 without Gear, Sorc is like miles ahead of everything. D4 Uber uniques are too rare! - D2 played for 20 years never found a zod rune or tyraels might. D4 needs an easy respecc - d2 for the longest time had no respecc at all.... the list goes on.
So in the end the important question is - why is d2 still so good today when it has no right to be? - sure some sort of nostalgia is involved. But something about the simplicity in one place and complexity in another works sooooooo well with that game. Something about the items keeps you grinding, without a reason to do so AND without exciting activities to do so - you can run mephisto 1000 times and its kind of exciting and its hard to describe why. And i think thats why it is so hard to at least recreate the experience. POE did a very good job with the core item design to try and give everything a meaning, but they also failed in a way so hard, that you need an external created filter, to sort your loot on the ground because 99% is still trash. D4 did a step in the right direction by making items simpler actually - thats a little bit contrary to the popular believe, that you need to add new systems all the time and add complexity.
So the big question is, what is the distillate if you break down d2 to its core. Is its just the click monster to open lootpinata? is difficulty a factor? - is the simplicity mandatory to make it addictive? Does it only work if the game promotes trading? - does it only work if the general lifespan of a character is pretty short and there is big incentive to play multiple characters? - what is the essence of that game that makes it so fun.
I don't need a single end game activity in d4. I never played any end game in d2. I need the game to be fun to play. D2 is fun to play, d4 is sadly not.
I remember playing the Legend of Zelda for the first time on the NES it was a game so big and long there needed to be a battery inside so it could save your progress. . . And the first time I Played through Final Fantasy 3 on the sNES, my first complete season of NHL95, and the stunning "3D" Visuals of Final Fantasy 7. . . Then there was Everquest the game changes my life and nothing has come close to ever giving me those experiences again. . .
My dream ARPG would be a simple modernization of Diablo 3, updated graphics, and every season they introduce a new set or character, that would be amazing!
Recent games that redefined or greatly improved upon their respective genres:
Doom Eternal (FPS)
DOS2 & BG3 (CRPG)
Elden Ring (ARPG)
I still have the original box set on CDs. Such a great game.
it’s just gamer nastolgia … i’ll never forget calling my friends in highschool once i was done with HW to hop on B net and so some mephy runs .. or the anxiety from hoping duriel didn’t kill me during the load screen in tal rashas tomb .. or getting the barb companion once LOD came out . Same with wow , so many good memories with classi and burning crusader and wolk … was just great time to be alive for gaming .
Ya only "nostalgia" made d2 good not the actual elements of the game which are 10x better than in d4 😂
Nostalgia nostalgia nostalgia 😂
The one and only defense d4 fan boys have when they hear anything good about d2 😂😂 pathetic.. U clearly didn't play d2 if this is ur excuse constantly..
I wouldn’t doubt when people want d4 to be like d2 , many of them are referring to the itemization system. The itemization of d2 is a superior system. Stoked to see d4 improving on this. To be fair, there’s also way many more farming strategies that can be done for particular things in d2, which adds some farming-type variety. This will get better in d4 with time I hope
Great thinking and commenting. One little detail I would have liked is that the music in the background would have been way less loud. I had to put on captions on times to understand what you were saying. D2 has great music, but i don't want to hear it when someone is tackling the topics you did. Otherwise great vid!
I would argue in the RPG-genre that Baldurs Gate 3 redefined the genre, a paradigm-changing game.
D2 is like a stick shift for an old muscle car or off roader. Lots of nostalgia value and a core fan base that will cling to it. However, times and values change, and the vast majority of the population do not have the time or desire to learn to drive a stick when an automatic transmission is so much easier and more convenient. When your bottom line is shareholder profit, you’re going to maximize your appeal to the widest audience.
Well said
Non-automatic cars are prevelent everywhere but the US
This is why Vampire Survivors exploded when it came out - it basically created the new genre (I know there were few similar games already, but it was perfected similarly to what D2 did)
diablo 2 was my first online game, played on dial up at 7 yrs old , that game taught me to type, spell. how to make friends and barter. the game taught me a lot, and i feel it will always be apart of me. also, remember having to type your friends name before EVERY WHISPER! haha
I think the Act Raiser genre could go miles. Imagine overseeing a whole community or world from a Bird's(God's) eye view. Then being able to select an individual fighter or sorcerer to live through his eyes.
D4 has a great base to work with but it is lacking in how all the items and skills are dull. Monsters also missing that scarey intimidating X factor
DEATHS: 2 Life: 356 / 373
I agree to an extent on all genres are all figured out, however every once in a while you will get a gem. Baldurs Gate 3 is another game that pushed a genre beyond what we thought could be done. Elden ring as well. It is very rare
Yes, innovation IS harder now. The iPhone example was honestly really spot-on.
After i saw your D1 playthrough (i never played it) i was blown away by the leaps b/w it and D2 (which i did play). A serious masterpiece for its time.
which is absolutely wild as d1 is one of the best games ever made :).
Game devs are more worried about mechanics and player retention than making an awesome storyline that hooks you in, and makes you actually care about the characters. What made D2 awesome is that the story was compelling. The original D2 was groundbreaking, but it isn't what you're playing now. Balancing the mechanics came later on, when online PvP became popular. No one worried about balance when it came out, you just played what seemed fun. You were there to complete the story. And doing it again with a different character felt different. The characters were different enough that the gameplay was changed. Yeah, you could do with with a Paladin...but what about a Sorc? Completely different play styles were needed. Devs in Blizzard North put out a game that they would want to play, and never thought about what reviewers would say about it. That's where the magic is.....the passion.
You can't go past games with super hard to find unique items that can define or compliment the skill systems applied to the characteristics of the player character
Literally no one is asking for new ideas. We want the EXACT same itemization Diablo 2 had with the EXACT same act progression, but add in end game like Diablo 3 did, they basically had this with cow level. The issue with D2R is it is built over the top of D2. I want a game built with new engine, new skills, new classes, better UI, but with EXACT itemization and then item farming.
Edit: I would prefer pre runewords as well, definitely before enigma and all those came out, it’s like the codex. There is zero excitement in d4. Too many items to sift through with little distinction. Also repeatable easy access farming just feels better, I don’t want to have to collect this and that and other crap to farm something, it’s lame. I just want to be able to switch off and pull the rng lever.
All I remember when diablo2 came out was I thought it was cool because you could run now... that's what made it great for me at the time.. that simple change
I just recently started playing Diablo 2 for the first time and I'm loving it so far, only complaint is the severe lack of carry capacity but it forces you to make tough decisions on what to bring back with you
??? You have infinite portals and mobs don’t respawn, capacity is irrelevant compared to today’s arpgs.
I think a whole lot of people would have been happy if diablo 4 was diablo 2 with better graphics, a new story, new zones, new classes, new abilities, new enemies, and new bosses.
Even the D2 soundtrack was a masterpiece. It still beats the other soundtracks. The game was so loved because it was so good for 20+ years and not many games can make that claim. New games might have added quality of life and extra content size and scale, but most of them won't be played for as long as D2.
Lovin the Diablo vids DM
2:00 Tbh I have so many ideas, but my job is in engineering, so I can't really manifest those. Maybe after I retire, I do this as a hobby
Id say "no rest for the wicked"is a good new thing. Highly recomend.
What modern companies lack is not innovation, it's understanding why adding limitations to games can make them better. For the same reason you yourself said Diablo 1 was the best experience, sometimes simplicity is superior to the cookie cutter design of modern RPG. Diablo 2 is a perfect example. When they made Diablo 3 they tried to take all of the core ideas of what made Diablo 2 great, like itemization and build variety, but what they didn't grasp is that specific limitations of those features is what made Diablo 2 last as long as it did. Take resetting skills for example, it is convenient to do so, but when it wasn't, every person with a weird build felt like he was special.
Everyone is looking for that feeling they once had while playing these games. Today, the question of repeating this experience does not depend on the games themselves, but on the computer that has achieved its capabilities. Do you want new experiences? wait for the new medium
It's difficult to "create something new". Demon Souls/Dark Souls was probably the last huge innovation we have seen? They created basically a whole new genre, sort of how Diablo 2 popularized ARPGS.
In respect to MMOs, my gut feeling is server meshing is the next big thing that is going to change the way MMOs are experienced as a "true" unified, singular world.
Can something like that happen in other genres? Yes, but not likely any time soon. There is the group of ex-Blizzard devs trying to bring back Starcraft-style RTSs, but we will have to wait and see if there is an audience.
The way I heard it, D4 was originally going to be first and third person like skyrim. I'm not sure what happened exactly, but it sounded like it was too far from being a "Diablo" game. So the idea was scrapped. I feel like a Skyrim-Diablo hybrid would be fairly original, but would upset most fans.
Only Blizzard NORTH could make great games. Blizzard died when Blizzard NORTH died.
Yes. Games that pop off are usually games that are very good and either re-iterating a genre, or creating a new one, and often genres that are easy to play but hard to master.
In later years I think Poppy Playtime and Vampire Survivors are two great examples
Games would have to do some ground-breaking anime style change for these genres to have something change in them.
Not even from the Virtual full dive sense either, but the mechanics themselves that are mad wild.
Shangri-La Frontier level of madness lol.