I took a read through of that document a few days ago, very thorough, and he doesnt pretend that this is the be all and end all of testing he knows that there are other variables that play into edge retention but heres what he found. absolutly awesome!
Nice info Kevin thanks for sharing, I've never been a hardness absolutist, being part of the sword community and knife community I've always appreciated tough steels and hard steels equally. This data is a big improvement over basic cutting tests, I still think it has room for improvement needing more variables but it's a good start. Maybe the data needs to incorporate the bias towards push cutting through a material and draw cutting. Also be more fine tuned about type of edge that is being retained. I uploaded a video about edge retention yesterday talking about these exact issues. It's hard to judge when a knife has become dull, because it depends what you mean by dull. I would consider a knife dull when it can no longer shave, but a blade steel might keep cutting through card and paper etc way after it has lots its razor hair popping edge. So the data can be skewed in favour of which working edge lasts longest, but doesn't really reflect which razor edge has held up longest. Also some steels don't perform well with a mirror polished edge taken to 0.5 micron strop. And other steels don't perform well on a 400 grit apex. So I think a catagory test should be the next stage, break the test up into working edge and razor edge sections, see which steel can hold a hair popping edge the longest, which steel can hold a working edge the longest. Which steel can hold an edge the longest with a 0.5 micron stropped edge longest, which steel can hold a 250 grit toothy edge the longest. Also which steel can hold a convex apple seed grind polished edge longest, etc etc until we have a more comprehensive data pool. I really liked that this test included varying HT and HRC, but I fear it may have had a high minimum starting point. Some of the steels on the list are not supposed to be run at 60+ and would favour a 58 for example. Maybe the starting bar for HRC should have been 55, especially for toughness based steels and the like. Anyways great video 10/10
Hi In terms of edge retention, What steel at what HRC would you recommend for a kitchen knife (not abused in bones and frozen stuff)? Could I have your opinion for best stainless and then best carbon knife? I really don't have time to sharpen them so I would try the extreme: ZDP189 as stainless CPM rex 121 as carbon Is that silly? Thank you
When you look at the budget steel 14C28N it looks great at HRC 62 hard, except not one stinking knife manufacturer heat treats it above 57 hard, not a damned one. It's like 440C and the heat treat made it no better than 420HC without Buck's heat treat.
The charts would also change depending on the heat treatment protocol. For example zt, Spyderco, Benchmade, lionsteel etc... Each brand uses different time and temps which creates a protocol. Not every company uses the same protocol for each steel they use. Some will use the steel brands recommended protocol from the maker of that steel, others will make there own protocol. Some protocols will be better than others. Larrins tests are only using his protocols using the equipment he has and not what manufacturers use or at the same protocols. So you may see steel x and assume it will be the same from any brand of mass production knives. That is very far from the truth. Larrin is writing for basic custom makers and not for mass manufacturing or heat treatment specialist that go above and beyond what the book and website entails. I think it's important not to say steel x is better than steel y.... Because alot of things matter in the mix. Ie knife brand m390 or 14C28N is not going to be equivalent as the next brand. This is ideally what we should see, but mass manufacturing doesn't reflect these numbers and often. So you really can't use this chart because of that. Another reason why some brands of M390 are very poor for edge retention and some brands are excellent. They are not all like the chart here because they use different protocols. That's why I dislike m390... Because it's often done very poorly for edge retention amongst many of the brands usa and China. Again the chart doesn't reflect manufacturers heat treatment.
Here's an example of several of the same blade of 204p tested with each a different protocol ruclips.net/video/PdnkLX-pWik/видео.html I hope this puts things into perspective for you. Because your video distorts this.
You wrote a lot just to say heat treat affects performance. I believe if you look at the article there is a short discussion of the heat treat protocol that was used. Maybe I am giving my audience too much credit but I think most viewers will already know that heat treat and other factors are going to make a difference. The important factor for this test is that all of the variables are controlled.
@@tacticalcenter8658 Very interesting video but again your trying to prove a point that I think everyone already knows maybe I'm wrong but most of the knife guys that I talk to know that your not going to get the same performance in the same steel from different companies or different knives.
It would be interesting to see how this charts changes when they would go for different sharpening angles and different sharpening grits... of course that would multiply the efforts of the tests and would probably break the budget they have... will see what the future brings...
I took a read through of that document a few days ago, very thorough, and he doesnt pretend that this is the be all and end all of testing he knows that there are other variables that play into edge retention but heres what he found. absolutly awesome!
Thanks for the fun discussion of the results, Kevin.
I haven't looked through that site in awhile, but it looks like it's time to revisit it. Thanks for pointing it out Kevin.
Nice info Kevin thanks for sharing, I've never been a hardness absolutist, being part of the sword community and knife community I've always appreciated tough steels and hard steels equally. This data is a big improvement over basic cutting tests, I still think it has room for improvement needing more variables but it's a good start.
Maybe the data needs to incorporate the bias towards push cutting through a material and draw cutting. Also be more fine tuned about type of edge that is being retained. I uploaded a video about edge retention yesterday talking about these exact issues.
It's hard to judge when a knife has become dull, because it depends what you mean by dull. I would consider a knife dull when it can no longer shave, but a blade steel might keep cutting through card and paper etc way after it has lots its razor hair popping edge.
So the data can be skewed in favour of which working edge lasts longest, but doesn't really reflect which razor edge has held up longest. Also some steels don't perform well with a mirror polished edge taken to 0.5 micron strop. And other steels don't perform well on a 400 grit apex. So I think a catagory test should be the next stage, break the test up into working edge and razor edge sections, see which steel can hold a hair popping edge the longest, which steel can hold a working edge the longest. Which steel can hold an edge the longest with a 0.5 micron stropped edge longest, which steel can hold a 250 grit toothy edge the longest. Also which steel can hold a convex apple seed grind polished edge longest, etc etc until we have a more comprehensive data pool. I really liked that this test included varying HT and HRC, but I fear it may have had a high minimum starting point. Some of the steels on the list are not supposed to be run at 60+ and would favour a 58 for example.
Maybe the starting bar for HRC should have been 55, especially for toughness based steels and the like.
Anyways great video 10/10
Great video, thanks for sharing! The amount of time and effort that went into this testing is mind boggling.
This is blade works history...
Thank you for mentioning...
Keep up the good work...
I first found that site and then I threw in the towel because it was too cumbersome for my brain. I appreciate you breaking it down for me.
Thanks for bringing this to attension I'm subscribed now
Hi
In terms of edge retention, What steel at what HRC would you recommend for a kitchen knife (not abused in bones and frozen stuff)?
Could I have your opinion for best stainless and then best carbon knife?
I really don't have time to sharpen them so I would try the extreme:
ZDP189 as stainless
CPM rex 121 as carbon
Is that silly?
Thank you
Anything about heat treatment?
Ok, I'm going there. I won't get a lot of sleep tonight...
Good summary
What 14C28N fixed blades are available? Hornet and Mora Garberg.
When you look at the budget steel 14C28N it looks great at HRC 62 hard, except not one stinking knife manufacturer heat treats it above 57 hard, not a damned one. It's like 440C and the heat treat made it no better than 420HC without Buck's heat treat.
The charts would also change depending on the heat treatment protocol. For example zt, Spyderco, Benchmade, lionsteel etc... Each brand uses different time and temps which creates a protocol. Not every company uses the same protocol for each steel they use. Some will use the steel brands recommended protocol from the maker of that steel, others will make there own protocol. Some protocols will be better than others. Larrins tests are only using his protocols using the equipment he has and not what manufacturers use or at the same protocols. So you may see steel x and assume it will be the same from any brand of mass production knives. That is very far from the truth. Larrin is writing for basic custom makers and not for mass manufacturing or heat treatment specialist that go above and beyond what the book and website entails.
I think it's important not to say steel x is better than steel y.... Because alot of things matter in the mix. Ie knife brand m390 or 14C28N is not going to be equivalent as the next brand. This is ideally what we should see, but mass manufacturing doesn't reflect these numbers and often. So you really can't use this chart because of that.
Another reason why some brands of M390 are very poor for edge retention and some brands are excellent. They are not all like the chart here because they use different protocols. That's why I dislike m390... Because it's often done very poorly for edge retention amongst many of the brands usa and China. Again the chart doesn't reflect manufacturers heat treatment.
Here's an example of several of the same blade of 204p tested with each a different protocol ruclips.net/video/PdnkLX-pWik/видео.html
I hope this puts things into perspective for you. Because your video distorts this.
You wrote a lot just to say heat treat affects performance. I believe if you look at the article there is a short discussion of the heat treat protocol that was used. Maybe I am giving my audience too much credit but I think most viewers will already know that heat treat and other factors are going to make a difference. The important factor for this test is that all of the variables are controlled.
@@tacticalcenter8658 Very interesting video but again your trying to prove a point that I think everyone already knows maybe I'm wrong but most of the knife guys that I talk to know that your not going to get the same performance in the same steel from different companies or different knives.
Might be a good thing that whenever we do get options the sprintrun will usually outrun us😝
Just one more word: SANDVIK😁
Link?
Where is M390?
Kudos to big brown bear as well I think he built the test “knives”
Thanks for sharing. Comments for the algorithm.
It would be interesting to see how this charts changes when they would go for different sharpening angles and different sharpening grits... of course that would multiply the efforts of the tests and would probably break the budget they have... will see what the future brings...
I wanna meet the tools that give this video a thumbs down. What the hell?
I actually hear quit a bit of criticism toward knife steel nerds not really sure why
Yeah the truth really is people mostly buy brand names. Budget buyers win again.