Pretty much. Any time they introduce these "dendro/superbreak" mechanics for the "normies/causals" who can't actually team build or play intelligently it brings the whole game down. Why build anything else when superbreak functions just as well if not BETTER and more EFFICIENTLY than other archetypes? Sure it's just an option but it's just annoying when you've been speed tuning and crit building for your favorite character and then they release a playstyle that says fuck you to all of it and just enables full clears on auto. On top of all this they release some insanely strong breakers like ff and boothill like they just wanna add salt to the wound. Don't wanna rant but I always dread these types of dendro shit because it just makes all my progress feel like ass because the new shit requires NONE of the stat investment I've been building since I started the game. Sorry for the rant lmao.
No.. bad players are just complaining because the game isn't "buff the hell out of one character and press a button" anymore.. People can't evolve and are ignorant enough to think that Hoyo doesn't have an answer for it
Oh yes but also no. Super break feels like something the devs just made up on the spot with zero thought put into it. It's hella braindead and poorly designed. Dendro at least explored many different team comps even if Hyperbloom is the most abusable.
Like you've said, Prydwen is just terrified to make the necessary changes because of the outrage from, let's call them unstable, people. The whole purpose of T0, T0.5, T1, T1,5, T2 etc system they've switched to is to soften the blow when the character is moved down. Tier 1 sounds a whole lot better than B Tier does, doesn't it? Yet it's the same thing.
Prydwen has appealed to the masses for a long time now. Their tier lists are not completely useless, but they don't show any effort in testing or trying stuff, they just show what the most popular opinion is at that moment.
Angry mains (mostly Jing Yuan mains) would constantly use their data against them so they gave up on having their own opinions and just do whatever the data says, it's sad.
That's not how it works lol, S+ tier was split into T0 and T0.5, that's why it's a half tier and not a full one. This was the whole reason they rewoked the list. S tier is now T1 and T1.5, A tier is T2 and B tier is T3.
@@crashsparrow6943 S+ itself was pretty much the same idea. Who should've been A, was S, who should've been B, was A and so on, all because actual S tier characters were moved even higher into stupid S Ultra Pro Max category. This unnecessary fragmentation and inflation of the amount of top tiers is always just an attempt to make people feel better.
Tierlists are important but I feel like people take them too seriously without thinking for themselves. Within the past month or so I've seen a ton of people saying Acheron "fell off" and that she's bad now, that she's going to be powercrept extremely soon, pretty much acting like she's unusable. Because the current content doesn't favor her as much, even though she can still brute force most of the content in the game within 2-3 cycles. Lots of theory crafting but not a lot of actually playing the game.
I don't know what Iyo was going on at @9:48, but Black Swan's Arcana doesn't add stacks for Acheron on the enemy turns. Only Jiaoqiu does. Technically, both Black Swan and Little Gui should do as well as they have a similar mechanic where stacks go up on an enemy turn, but they don't, which is really really annoying. As a note, Black Swan does add stacks for Acheron when new mobs join the field, like the 2nd wave in MoC or when you are getting new waves in PF or when the Elites/Bosses summon mobs, like the weeds that the Abundeer summons, or the Fishes the annoying Sanction Mech summons. Anyway, my beef with the current Prydwen tierlist isn't that they lowered Acheron, she's worse than Feixiao when you take team compositions and the current MoC 12 fights/buffs, BUT she's not much worse, and she's definitely not on the same level as Ration and Yunli... So anyway, I'm expecting to see Acheron back to T0 next MoC because we're gonna have Swarog in one of the parts for MoC 12 next and Dotcheron eats up Swarog on a silver platter.
In regards to the Arcana thing, he may have been misremembering from the pre-release state. She used to create the stacks on enemy turns in the Acheron Beta testing but was patched out. Probably because they decided to add it to the Jiaqiou kit instead. As for Tier Lists, I don't personally put much stake in them. By their nature they are extremely limited and subjective. For example, they used to leave out the herta shop lightcones from their calculations because they were 5 star cones. No sigs as well means that characters that rely on them like Acheron are gonna drop in the tiers. Before the addition of PF, all erudition characters would be permanently in the bottom tiers. Tier lists really are taken way too seriously.
I've used BS with Acheron before and the arcana only applies on the automatically when two or more enemy get summon, if I remember it only gave Acheron one
1. The tierlist is made because of the buffs MOC had in the last few months and since many of them were follow-up, followup characters like Ratio and Yunli are higher up. 2. I have an Acheron E0S0 and I do have Jiaoqui and Silver and Pela and her damage is just not strong enough to easily clear anymore even when on element. Now, yes, you can say she would with lightcones, more eidolons or more limited characters that I don't own, but like prydwen tried to explain not all characters do have this problem, Feixiao doesn't. That's why she's one tier higher now and the downgrade makes total sense. 3. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love her design, but it's correct that new players should ask themselves the question, if they really want to pull for her on the rerun. Especially when considering the raw DPS numbers that have been posted for Rappa on prydwen. She does double Acherons damage in a 3 enemy scenario and I'm sure other new DPS will hit similar numbers. It's generally not recommended to pull for DPS characters on reruns. We know this, new players may not.
This. I remember when Jingliu was still considered one of the top picks when she reran beside Acheron and alot of CCs highly recommended to get her as well for your other team... Only to get severely powercrept by Firefly super break 2 patches later. Pulling on DPS reruns is always a bad idea unless you just really like the character or want their E1/E2/LC, since it's very likely they'll be powercrept by the newer DPS on raw damage per cycle.
I am a newish player, seriously considering pulling Acheron. I think she can fill a big gap I have in my account. I don't have any of the limited followup units (No Topaz, No Feixiao, no Adventurine) so I can't run that team. I have a pretty good Firefly Team (Firefly, HMC, Ruan Mei, Lingsha) and I usually run DoT team on the other half (Kafka, Black Swan, Robin + sustain) my DoT team is really starting to have difficulty clearing content and I'm struggling to put together another team. I don't really have any other DPS characters (I started playing playing after ratio was given out, so he isn't on my account), So I think the upcoming Acheron rerun will help he fill out my second team.
@@1norwood1 you can do that, but keep in mind that Acheron E0S0 is already struggling in endgame. I heard a dot-sustain will be added soon and if I were you I would just wait for the servant-team-DPS that should arrive in 3.0 or 3.1
That on 1 in itself is stupid AF, it defeats the purpose of tier list itself actually rank how great the character is by design and not how its currently fare within meta of some endgame Weekly content. Prydwen doesn't have tier list, they have weekly meta list.
10:04 Either you explained it very poorly or you are just flat out wrong. Acheron doesnt get Ult stacks when DoT triggers. She only gets stacks when the DoT get applied. I used Acheron/Black Swan a lot so here are the Black Swan actions that will give Acheron a stack. Using her Basic, Skill or Ult will always give one stack no matter how many enemies are hit (Assuming you have the recommended 120% Effect Hit Rate on Black Swan). Enemies being summoned will will instantly get Black Swans DoT and give one stack to Acheron. Once again it doesnt matter how many enemies got summoned, as long as they all enter the field at the same time it conts as only one stack. Here is the tricky part. For some reason (blanacing I suppose), the DoT being applied to new enemies only gives stack for summoned enemies, like the Luofu Wolfs or the swarm cloning. New enemis entering the field as part of a new wave or delayed arival like in Pure Fiction doesnt give Acheron stacks even through they got afflicted my Black Swans DoT. Edit: I think the key to understanding what gives stack (or "Crimson Knot") is this sentence form her Talent Discription "This effect [Crimson Knot being applied] can only trigger once for every ability used.". This also count for enemy actions, so a summon entering the field is tied to another enemies Action but a enemy entering the field normaly isnt. This also explains why Guinaifen can only give one stack even throught her skill can apply two debuffs, one on skill use and the other on the enemy turn.
Iyo, im sorry but 31:38 I do agree with Serra here. Acheron and Yunli at E0S0 is on equal playing field. Idc what you say on how out of touch you are but E0S0 Acheron isnt as strong as how you make it out to be. For the past MoC, Acheron has not been performing well. You should be thankful that Prydwen even went out of their way to consider S5 GNSW for Acheron. When you look at the other DPS, its always the Herta Shop LC and everyone and their mother knows that Herta Shop LC on Acheron is ass. And even then, S5 GNSW is a massive downgrade vs her LC. Not just in terms of damage but also in terms of frequency. Losing that 1 extra stack of Crimson Knot hurts in the long run.
prydwen consider whatever f2p LC (herta store or standard 4 star LC at S5) is best for a unit in tier lists, for most DPS that’s the herta store one because the destruction/hunt herta LC is just better than the 4 stars for most units. they didn’t go out of their way for acheron specifically
@@minasimmsIt used to be pure ftp LC until Acheron released and she was bad with fermata and the herta one. They decided to allow gacha LCs so she could be rated with GNSW.
@@AristineSilvanus Acheron 0 cycles 1 cost the first half of the moc and Firefly can't, thats all that You need to know to know that Acheron is better than Firefly bcz that battle is literally FOR Firefly and Firefly is on t0, so Acheron is better than a t0 and You are talking about someone that is not Even on top 5 dps
@@JohnDoe-si4eg That's incorret bro, Fu xuan best 4 star "F2P" lightcone is a gacha one too the Landau's Choice, Pela best 4 star is a gacha too Resolution, Tingyun best 4 star is Dance Dance Dance, and there's more examples, Acheron was not the first character to have a 4 star gacha S5 to be her best LC.
Thank you for the detailed reasoning behind the Acheron drop I’m a returning player and don’t have any new dps and was looking forward to her rerun and the entire community was makin me feel like it’s a mistake to pull for her So I appreciate the re assurance Subbed
Alright time to leave my constructive criticism Ive said this a million times on every single video by this point. Stop talking about hypercarry. Not even the casuals are talking about double harmony/ hypercarry anymore. I even see the jingliu and dhil twitter stans starting to say hypercarry sucks. Thats how you know its bad. Nobody is playing hypercarry, theres no need to say “the casuals are bringing down acheron with their hypercarry.” Just stop mentioning it, this group of people your talking about is probably less then 1% of the playerbase. As someone who likes dotcheron, you are both overrating it, and spreading misinformation. Swan doesnt give another stack on the enemy turn. If she did, swan would always be played with acheron no question. Everyone would talk about it. Acheron would probably still be #1. But thats not the case. I wish it was though. I agree people are being extremely unfair to acheron. Pyrdwen needs to just say “this is about teams not characters.” Because yeah, when you compare the quadruple limited fua team to e0s0 acheron with no jiaoqiu, of course acheron isnt in the same tier. I dont really think e0s0 acheron is in the same tier as feixiao, but when you include e0s1, acheron is easily as strong as feixiao. Also e0s0 yunli is definitely as strong as e0s0 acheron, if not stronger. Even when you compare costs Tingyun lynx yunli sparkle vs acheron jiaoqiu pela gallagher. That character is very ridiculous. If yunli was attached to better characters and the puppets of order boss didnt exist i might even call her t0.
One point nobody is talking about btw is relic quality. You need ABSURD relic quality for the fua team. You need that 90+ cr feixiao with somehow getting a ton of CD. You need to get that 4K attack 121 speed robin. You need that topaz with 134 speed and good crit ratios. The only character thats “easy” to build on that team is aventurine. And even then theres a ton of room for improvement with him. With acheron you just stack all your good relics on her, then give your jiaoqiu and pela as much speed as they can have and nothing else truly matters that much because jiaoqius damage doesnt matter and neither does pelas. Its very easy for somebodys personal acheron team to just be better then their fua team just because they have a much easier time getting to insane acheron relics.
i think you missed the point the tierlist is for E0S0 and while acheron might not be on the same level as Fiexiao, she by no mean is in equal level of ratio or yunli at e0s0 also the issue with dot acheron is the need of skill points acheron want to use skill, kafka want to use skill, Black swan preferably want to use skill and gallagher is not great to sustain a non break team, and he only apply the debuff once if they kept Jiaqou stacking with trend of universal LC stacking then acheron would have gotten her ult very very frequently so in beta they remove the interaction the other issue on acheron team is that she alone is the damage dealer still she slaps end game content relatively easy at e0s0 with the regular team of jiaou pela and a preservation sustain so if prydwen want to dump her down for team inflexibility then at least check her and the other 2 she is put next to on the tier list also prydwen assess a character based on the current end game content and for the last few patches we were getting lightning resistant enemies which is not address anywhere in the assessment
She is 1000% Yunli tier(use her BiS team before you judge). They said in the discord Ratio will probs be moved down in the near future. They also said Yunli with sigs is t0.
Acheron is better than Firefly in 1 cost in a battle that is Made for Firefly (MoC first half), so, Firefly is t0.5 or Acheron is t0, and we know Firefly is t0 so yeah, logisctic, btw Feixiao needs the same investiment that Acheron needs at 1 cost, Acheron 0 cycling the first half and Feixiao 0 cycling Hoolay, so yeah, they are OBVIOUSLY at the same tier, and Even with that Feixiao has better teams, but it's not better even with that by himself, bcz the farm that You need to do in Acheron is less than the farm You need to do in all the Feixiao team, only to have the same results in a single target fight that Acheron does in a multi target fight
@@JohnDoe-si4eg bro, then the e0s0 tier list has no sense bro, the hole tier list is nonsense if they follow your argument, is pure logistic, if You need me to talk about costs of team, then You need to search more info of the Game
@@JohnDoe-si4eg want me to Say You the channel that shows Acheron can 0 cycle 1 cost the cups? (If i send the link RUclips deletes it thats why i'm saying to send the channel)
I regret not getting Lingsha just like Robin who i skiped for FF but i cant pull everything and with Sunday and Fugue on the way i had to pick one ( Sunday ) or both over her and maybe pick her on her rerun. Also in this MoC at least SB blade is actually better then crit blade lol.
@@Meckenn ? Because he’s the new Meta support and sure Lingsha technically fits into that but her only support is related to the break team. A better sustain would be Huohuo with the Energy recharge or even Aven for his SP+ nature and if the new summon meta actually makes a 5th team member like the leaks suggest who knows maybe they’ll be able to be shielded. Not to mention in the break team with Fugue it’s possible now to run sustainless with an actual damage increase so not getting Lingsha to guarantee Sunday with a good shot at Fugue or possibly get the new 3.0 DPS with the summon mechanic of it’s cool enough.
@@The_CodFish69I mean what if the new summon character has a break component in which case would mean lingsha is your best sustain option? We don't even know if a summon dps is definitely coming in 3.0 since leaks aren't exactly certain. My point being be careful of planning around leaks is all.
@@mr.protagonist5639 but of if I can only get Sunday ( the RM/Robin of the new meta ) or a sustain that may or may not be the BIS sustain for said meta team…. It’s not a hard choice.
i play firefly EoSO with gallaghar and I full clear easily, I don´t think you have to regret skipping lingsha, she might be better in the future with a comming summon meta, but you rather want to have the harmony for the meta over the sustain, that can be replaced
The reason why acheron can't move down is because all the previous versions of the endgame content didn't help her ( exept for PF ) and SHE WAS ABLE TO CLEAR ALL OF THEM ON TIME without any help from the buffs So if other teams can clear in time with the help from the buffs and acheron also does the same thing WITHOUT those buffs i believe she should stay on top
Yeah thats pretty much the definition of being an apex unit is clearing all the content easily without buffs. I think a lot of people didn't pull Jiaoqiu but they pulled RObin and Ruan mei so it seems like Feixiao and FIrefly are much better.
The previous MoC is basically the same MoC as her debut and she still underperformed in their data despite it including S1, which obviously favors her because basically everyone has her LC. It only makes sense that s0 would drop down.
@@10nessee How so? I get that everyone has been repeating the whole "omg Acheron is the best" thing for months, but the data is there and it doesn't lie. Even Kafka/BS cleared her debut MoC faster than she did, we need to stop judging based on dmg per screenshot.
can certainly agree its confusing having Acheron on the same tier as Ratio and Yunli but i also understand Feixiao being in a tier of her own to where i feel like they just needed to move the entire DPS list down 1 from where it is rn.(though Bronya E0 being that high is kinda confusing also)
>Acheron isn't bad guys, just pull Eidolons for her and her teammates and she's all set! Bro, every 5* is good if you can just whale for their Eidolons, what do you mean?! 🤚😂
It's honestly pretty simple... Acheron has to deal almost all the damage on the team herself (maybe Dotcheron no, but Dot is where it is), wheras Feixiao has Robin spitting out damage procs at an alarming rate and a dedicated sub-DPS like Topaz, Moze or March to add more team damage. The final slot can be a sustain with a follow up or another action advancer like Bronya. Very few things are able to withstand that amount of punishment to the point where sustain becomes necessary, so I mostly run sustainless. When I do need sustain it's a bit cope, since I don't have Aven or Lingsha. Right now I'm running a 160 speed Luocha on 4 eagle for stacks from turn cycling lol. I do have an E5 Bronya to make up for it tho.
People invalidating Ratio for being "Free" are fucking insane, this is still the best standalone hunt character in the game and doesn't have any numbers compared to "free" characters, he wasn't an amazing gift to the community for nothing, he's a solid 5 star with 5 star potential and outstanding performance in his niche. Also repeating again and again how much it's "weird" for another 5 star character to be on the same level as him is misleading as fuck, of fucking course Acheron reaches higher numbers, but with the amount of restrictions tied to those numbers Ratio once again surpasses her as a standalone character, if i was a new player looking for a character to invest i'd 100% choose Ratio over Acheron. As for Feixiao team comps most comments are also misleading, if she doesn't have Aventurine+Robin+Signature LC she is not at all better than Ratio when compared at E0S0.
You're delusional. Feixiao only needs Robin. That's it. She sure as hell doesn't need Aventurine or her LC to surpass Ratio. There are plenty of clears on RUclips, there's no excuse for you to be lying like this. Also, who's ever picking up Ratio over Acheron today? He's neither free, nor anywhere near Acheron's level.
Feixiao only needs Robin. She doesn't need Aventurine or her sig to surpass Ratio. Also, no one in their right mind is picking up Ratio over Acheron today.
@@Lewa500 Ratio requires way less investment to get way better results, there's not much 'space' for debate on that, and no only Robin is unable to make Feixiao better than him, but even that way give Robin to Ratio and he's still above Feixiao
@@mogamiaki211 Is that supposed to prove anything? We have 0 cycles with characters like Jing Yuan and Yanqing without any of these credit card cheats that you mentioned, are these top tier too?
I think it’s the same thing as Jingliu and Acheron. One has a premium team that isn’t likely to change while the other only has potential upgrades. Like you can’t really get a better sustain for Fei, and Robin is already the best support she can be for Fei, really the only person that can be replaced is topaz but even that would at max be a 10% upgrade while you can replace literally everyone and get better results on an Acheron team
7:10 Bro is out of touch as always. Maybe because we don't have 600$ like you to just buy every single character? A lot of players are just F2P, 5$ thingy or BP. WE DON"T have jades to pull for every single character and LC!!! We NEED to make choices. I can send you my paypal account. If you will donate me 600$ every 3 weeks (because that is the cost of E0S1 in the worst case scenario. 100$ = 40 pulls) I promise that I will pull for every single new unit and LC. As for Lingsha it's the same story. If we have E6 Gallachad then pulling for E0 Lingsha is pointless. E1 is great and surely every single F2P want that. But we CAN'T get this. Anyway. I kinda agree with everything else. Good vid. But that one line about why players are skipping X character is always annoying. I hope I explained that well and easy enough to understand.
Hey man this is great content tho. It's like them moving stuff around just creates discussion and drama in the community and now CC just farm it for content haha
next dps will be either crit dps or summon I call it now, I think superbreak will fall off after 3.X follow up will probably stay strong because there is follow up for everything aside of superbreak.
My Favorite Thing is this Support is useless cause no main lead. Then regret not getting said Support two patches later becuse Main lead release. But people not understanding Value of Character is nothing new. Looks at Genshin Kazuha first release people saying Skip he just 5 Sucrose and Then by 2nd release being must grab.
I think personally, the stronger your FUA team is, the better Lingsha gets compared to Aventurine. Becuase, if you kill stuff faster, then you won't build Aven stacks as fast, whereas while Linsha's FUA might be a little frequency might be a little less, its still more consistent . Also, I agree. Each tier is like a spectrum, so some characters in the same tier, but even if one may be just a little bit better, or more versatile, they're still together. So, yeah Acheron should/can still be tier 0
Take cue from GI, it's part of the whole rotation, not some oversight or bad decision to make Super Break OP, just happened that the spotlight now is on Super Break. Others will have their time in the spotlight when their time come. Yes, it shares a huge resemblance to the Hyperbloom situation back then. But guess what? Other reactions in GI took or are currently taking their turn in the spotlight again after Hyperbloom. I don't believe Hoyo never saw this coming, especially they had similar prior players reaction for Hyperbloom in GI. Although each Hoyo game title is helmed by different teams, it's evident that they share resources, info between teams, so I believe they intended Super Break the way it did, it's part of the plan, and they also propped up FUA in the midst of it. Just wait, the rest will have their time to shine again. Just that you'll probably need to add 1 new character made to prop whichever old weakened team up at whichevergiven time. Just play who you like.
I need to say this again, I recommend that all content creators take time to look at the data they’ve collected in their MoC analytics tab, Acheron as a single character is definitely stronger than Ratio, but she has a worse average cycle clear over the last 3 MoC cycles than both Ratio and Yunli. You can argue potential and personal experience, but you can’t argue with results, especially when collected at random. I agree they should harp more on how team builds/strength effect the rankings, but in their defense they make it clear in their change logs that Acheron has moved down as a result of her team not being up to par
Acheron best team is Jiaoqiu, Robin and Aventurine her team is absolutely up to par and I 2 cycle Hoolay easily E0S0 Acheron with that team same cycles as Firefly with Ruan Mei, Lingsha and Harmony MC. Acheron can 0 cycle first half at E0S0 just like Firefly. Prydwen don't even have that team on there at all for some reason so they can't really argue her team is not up to par when they not even using her best team to begin with.
@@kennethyoung7457 Oh don’t get me wrong I’m with you brother, I personally think she is DEFINITELY t0 worthy don’t get me wrong, she is very strong even still, but the data they have doesn’t reflect that. It’s not that they’re choosing to neglect those teams to skew results, it’s that the random accounts they’re scanning aren’t running it for whatever reasons they have.
@@seunabe4612 Prydwen just doesn't seem that credible tbh if results are based purely on random players usuage rates and they don't actually test out teams themselves. It is fun to discuss the results with people though as pretty much no other tier lists for this game is that popular.😊
For the data you also got to consider data size relative to usage rate. Average can be heavily skewered on smaller data size. Currently Ratio specifically is heavily skewered right now, data size of 150 which is 1/10 the size of Acheron and with 3 units paired with him being over 60% with any others at best barely over 10%. Making his data very linear, while Acheron has a more spread data. So it's hard to make an accurate assessment based on data that's not comparative in size or spread. There's also others variables you'd have to consider also.
Although Acheron is definitely better than Ratio, the data they’ve collected on their site shows that both Yunli and Ratio have a better average cycle clear than her over the past 3 MoC’s so by that metric, she actually does belong right next to him and not above him
@@martinhkis3169 So are you saying that acheron and ratio are on the same level? Its not a matter of where ratio is is, its that assertion that by putting acheron and him in the same tier that they are of the same power level. Which they most definitely are not.
@@kmel3588 Well, seunabe4612 just gave the actual reasons. This list is always made without signature LC, so if we account for that as well, they are sort of on the same level, as Ratio has much better free LC options.
@@kmel3588 I'm pretty sure the Prydwen tier lists are based on the current Moc/PF/AS rotations, so if they perform similarly in them, they are on the same tier.
I mean.. I feel like they explain it pretty well. It's no lightcone, current MOC, and strength and cost of value from supports. Maybe people are just dumb idk, but I can look at this tier list and understand what they are saying and it's pretty straight forward.
It's not current MoC what they judge. It's several rotations worth of data and overall value. At least that's what their criteria stipulates. "These tier lists rate characters based on their average performance in Memory of Chaos, Pure Fiction and Apocalyptic Shadow regardless of turbulence, whimsicality and cacophony."
This is peering into leak territory, but I think new Tingyun can become a great teammate for Acheron because in a team of: Acheron Tingyun/Fugue Ruan Mei/other Nihility Lingsha Tingyun can give her buff to Lingsha so she can apply debuff with any attacks, and she can use Pearls to apply debuff herself, helping generate stacks for Acheon. And naturally her presence add Superbreak damage to the team, which can be a solution for the issue with normal Acheron team where she is the only one dishing out damage as a Hypercarry. In this team, Acheron can be build a mix of Break and Crit so one Nihility can be replaced with Ruan Mei to balance her normal crit damage and Superbreak damage, while buffing the team as a whole. Depending on how the final version of Tingyun ends up being, this can be a variation of break team where Acheron can at least deal some damage prior to breaking enemies unlike Firefly, and they have easier time with off element mobs because we have 2 Omni Breakers in the team with Acheron and Tingyun ults
Yea my issue with the change is that like dot, acheron isn't fully fleshed out. Though its just a hard pill to swallow that shes carrying her team and aside from jiao, the rest are battery. I've seen a lot of feixiao doing lower dmg than acheron, but feixiao and her team is just blasting damage to the team. What I've realized from playing dotcheron in the recent AS is that acheron would want a fua/summoner/servant to rapid fire debuffs so she can ult often while also being a viable subdps. Can't wait to see what 3.0 holds for her and other teams, especially dot.
I like that we're heading towards more diverse play styles for each new character, but I wish hoyo would give older characters quality of life adjustments or modernise them.
I don't get the Acheron BS team point, the tier list is heavily influenced by their MoC data and they can see how teams perform. In their data, BS doesn't seem to help her clear faster outside of maybe wind weak encounters.
I still want an Abundance/Preservation DoT/Debuff centred unit that works better with Acheron. Similar to how Aventurine is better with follow-up. Lingsha was a step towards that but her main stick is with Break teams. Fugue is gonna be insane for Break teams - and if she doesn't receive any detrimental changes to her skill, then, with Acheron teams too
Honestly the exact reason why you say follow-up is good is another reason why Firefly is very good because everything about her team synergizes with each other firefly doesn't just do damage she supports her team by implanting fire weakness which most of her premium teammates now including Fugue are going to benefit from Gallagher and linxia give extra break damage harmony trailblazer makes everybody a DPS with competitive damage and you want me is just the glue that keeps everything together every part of the team works in tandem to achieve a greater goal and it's not just powering up one character to do a big hit everybody is contributing to the wind and it all doesn't just fall on one character
At the end of the day, there is a point to be made. And that's why prydwen shouldn't be taken that seriously if they are very inconsistent with how they evaluate characters, but also because we know how some people feel. Just because a character dropped a tier doesn't necessarily make them worthless, just like how moving them up not necessarily means they're the greatest thing ever. No one should exaggerate stuff like this
The issue with HSR tier lists is the formats dont change fast enough to go deeper than who works best with the most recent characters. Instead of 12 stages once a month, if we had 4 stages every 10 days with different formats we would see units actually cement their positions in the meta due to reoccurring formats and favorable bosses. This would also get rid of the useless early stages we skip anyway.
I think the one point to solidify Iyo’s statement about FUA team being the best archetype in the game is that Follow Up Comps don’t have any inherent weakness & aren’t stifled by anything. BREAK/SUPERBREAK teams need to bully down the toughness meter to get their damage. Enemies like Sam/Yanqing are hard counters to break DOT can be triggered manually, & don’t need fast enemies but it really helps if enemies are super fast. And DOT currently needs a buff, crit, support, extra DOT triggers, etc. DOT is an exception, honestly HYPERCARRY is a “eggs in one basket” situation. Enemies like Svarog & “Something Unto Death” can steal your DPS & now you’re screwed/SOL. Your supports can’t buff a unit who isn’t on field. COUNTER comps need enemies who attack a lot. Kafka/Swarm King/DOT choir trio dude are the counters to Clara/Yunli, etc. SUMMON meta isn’t here yet so that’s to be determined. Plus summons are outside of the initial turn order so they’re safe from getting CC/Debuffed/Stolen. DEBUFFS don’t deal damage. They just hinder the enemy. Other than DOTS. Acheron’s teams work for her so SHE HERSELF can do damage but she’s her own thing so I’m not really counting her. FUA comps just do the damage plus extra damage depending on your teammates. Their kits work without having any conditions needed to make them work. Ratio needs debuffs but Moze/Gallagher can work. Follow up TEAMS “buff” the TEAM & themselves by just doing damage & killing the enemy. That’s why I think FUA is such a “long term/endgame” account investment
not sure snyone cares, just my perspective on why i didnt get jiaoqiu the first time round (7:20): - I was suspecting Acheron's power at the time and whether getting a support so limited to just her was worth it - Robin and the new character Feixiao was set to have banners after him and I calculated I wouldn't have enough jades to go around for everybody
If you play this game, accept that your favourite character will be less relevant as time goes on. I don’t get why people get so emotionally invested in pixels.
black swan and kafka don´t give acheron stacks in enemy turn because dot procs don´t give stack, only when they are applied, JQ is the only character that gives acheron stacks in enemy turn, because his ult applies debuffs everytime their turn starts
The thing about Lingsha is her bunny is also a summon... Maybe a new meta later on for that? That would make her into 4 different categories. 25:47 - 29:03 .
It’s a team base game so off corse if there isn’t a character to maximise the ability of your characters than tier list is going to get affected. Currently Feixiao has way more team parts to maximise her ability .. so she’s stronger for now at least than Achron( she’s missing best harmony and sustain in my opinion)
It's a team game. A new player can't just be presumptuous to think all characters fit together. If such a person assumes that, that's on them, not Prydwen. You can't expect Prydwen to base the tier list around absolute fools making horrific assumptions, so I can't agree. I think the way Prydwen does things makes perfect sense for anyone with an above room temperature IQ, even in regard to new players. They just have to actually think to a minimal amount like a human being, as opposed to some sort of zombie. Also, you really need to remember, this tierlist is specifically for full E0S0 teams, and uses averages based on the last 3 phases combined with internal testing with a casual player mindset in mind. All of that comes into play as to why units end up where they are on the list. Things like unit best teams and F2P alternatives are heavily considered too. Edit: Okay, as a follow up, sorry, but you are in the ultra copium zone. No, E0S0 Acheron is not nearly as good as you are acting like she is. Yunli destroys her in many stages. She is absurdly better than Acheron against Hooley for example. And, yes, Acheron is better than her against Choir. But, they share a placement in the tierlist, so this back and forth makes sense. As more data came in, Yunli has looked better and better, not worse. There is a reason Yunli has soared passed Acheron in overall avgs. It's not quite as bad when you focus on their best team avgs. but I think you just don't realize how good Yunli actually is, or you are overestimating how good E0S0 Acheron is. As for Dr. Ratio, his averages on his better teams are doing pretty good as more people have Robin now thanks to her recent rerun. While I think Acheron's averages edge his out more often than not, they aren't as far apart as I think you think they are, and I could see him being too close to justify him being moved down a tier from Prydwen's perspective at this point in time, especially considering avgs across the last 3 MoC. Because, remember, this is not a tierlist for the highest performing players at ultra 1% relics with DDD wind set shenanigans. This is a tierlist for the typical player which is why avgs. based on data hold more weight than say low cost speed clears posted on Bilibili. Prydwen has nothing to do with the latter and it would make 0 sense for them to be. With that being established, looking at the data, Acheron's avgs. are a lot closer to Ratio's than they are to Feixao's. It isn't as close as you seem to think it is for Feixaio, and it isn't as far as you think it is for Dr. Ratio, which is what causes this disconnect.
To be clear. I've said from the start that Acheron is not F2P friendly, and is restricted by her Nihility unit passive. She also needs her Sig, and her only alternatives are all Gacha LC. And the whole excuse that she frees up Harmony units is BS when you look at her C2. She's a bait unit that requires high investment. And why wouldn't Hoyo make her that way after they saw the hype coming off her. Mine is E0S0, and has been struggling for a long time... 🤷
The thing to note is that this tierlist is also e0s0, and antillars also said that with her sig acheron is a whole different character and almost 87% of the people that have acheron pulled her sig(according to prydwen's data). With her sig she is t0 along with yunli
It's very funny seeing people mald over acheron and arguing about her for the past 6 months. I'm sitting over here never having pulled her or caring about her.
Thats a nice lineup for acheron u got kafka and black swan then robin but the skill points that u are using per turn with those heroes are the skill right not the basic attack then thats the problem with that it consumes alot of skill points for this team, its much better if u have jaqiou and pela you have the def reduc and stacks of roast by jaqiou up to 5 then u pop the ult with those upcoming new enemies equals to roast stack to all of those enemies equally to the highest stack then ult on acheron thats more efficient and it doesnt even cost u that much of investment rather than those 5star dot queens I prefer to those who are newbies getting acheron that are free to play use those free 4star character that are not much to invest Essentially u could use this team ups Acheron, Pela, Guinafein then sustain u can use the fire mc if u dont have a good sustain or if u have Geapard that would be more better
i can't care less about a character tier list only a Team tier list makes sense in a team & turn based game then it is up to everyone to build up said teams, based around characters/playstyles they prefer (or can afford if f2p)
I didnt pull jq bc i use dotcheron sustainless and i find myself quite comfortable w this team, i am able to clear most game content even w max score, got often 40k in pf bc ofc this team is amazing in aoe content, got good scores on last and current AS bc plantylia and sunday healed and shielded so it was even easier to play dotcheron sustainless, in moc i either use pela bs gallagher or do dotcheron w gallagher, im planning on getting e1 bs and jq lc to finally do 0 cycle in moc w this team, its my fav acheron team, i dont like jq as a character and i have more fun playing dotcheron even though its not her best team
I feel like Prydwen should really consider making a separate tierlist for every category with E0S1 in mind as well since so many characters benefit from their sig (case in point Acheron)
Acheron sig does not change that much from GNSW tbh people are vastly overrating how much that LC actually does. You won't even get an extra ult from that LC most of the time as the enemy is dead before Acheron gets 9 turns anyway if you build her.
The creator already said what it would be if this happens. It would just make tier zero bloated as they stated Yunli, Feixiao, and Acheron would be Tier 0.
What's the point? All characters benefit from their sigs. And from eidolons. You'll have to make 50 different tierlists and Prydwen is already incapable of making just one.
I dunno man, once I read their reasoning it all made perfect sense to me, if the average player loses their shit without reading that then its their fault, not prywden's. As for Acheron vs Ratio, keep in mind that they dont use limited 4* cones either afaik, so that alone creates a gap because there are no good free cones for Acheron,plus at E0S0 Ratio has WAY more solid partners and has good synergy with all limited harmonies, meanwhile Acheron is very restricted, so even if she deals more damage I can see that lack of versatility being the equalizer
Then there is me f2p, started on jingliu and aventurine banner, won all my 8 5050 in a row so far just pulling on characters I like that turned out to be good except my newest rappa still happy with her though 😄
Nahhh bro Acheron literally just feel off a cliff. Try doing an Acheron E0S0 (so without signature), together with Jiaoqui E0S0 and another character of your choice without their signature as well and then try to clear the current half of MoC. 😅 My best Acheron team couldn’t clear it under 6 turns and I have used all different DoT units. It’s just not possible. Meanwhile break up teams just delivered it. 3 rounds for Break Himeko and Firefly and only one round for Rappa (without signature with only 130 break effect and Ruan Mei and MC and Lingsha), and still 3 rounds without Ruan Mei.
I’m 100% F2P. I use tier lists to give me a general idea, but I have never once felt I couldn’t make a proper team. I What the hell is the difference between 0 and 0.5. Who cares? Can you clear content? Yes? That’s it.
Hmm maybe ill have a reason to use her now. To me pela seems boring so i havng finished my acheron team yet but maybe i would with swan@kennethyoung7457
To the person in the chat: Stop the Huohuo slander. The precious angel literally cleanses AFK. She heals outside of her and your 10 hp character's turn. She gives energy. She gives atk buff. This can work in Boothill and FF teams too 😆Not so much Feixiao or Acheron since they don't want energy but in that case just use Aventurine Gallachad or Lingsha. Huo2 is the GOAT. I'm pretty sure she's also the best sustain option for a lot of the not T0-T0.5 DPS (outside of Yunli where I believe she is the BIS)
Hm, it seems that the tierlist is falling apart. I might just move to raw data for full build teams instead of "individual" character tierlist that needs a paragraph each and subdivide its own rows. If the game wants to hyperspecialize characters to their ideal character or archetype this tierlist is waiting to burn. Lets see how they handle the FugueE1 and Ruan Mei
Is Aventurine suddenly not a sub-dps? And arguably a better one for FUA since he actually benefits crit unless you're building critsha (which is mid imo but you can make it work). People definitely underestimated her, but unless they're fire weak/she's on a meme build, her damage isn't equal to his on FUA in my experience. She can beat him on FUA team if they're fire weak and you can break with her, or the enemy doesn't attack often, otherwise he generally wins in DPS and stacks. If we get to a point in damage where he needs to skill often, then it'll will start skewing towards her more. Also go play Acheron on S5 GNSW and say she's vastly superior to Yunli, because that's what they're talking about. As you said, many people didn't pull JQ, so try s5 GNSW without JQ and that's the average Acheron experience. I can't say I'd recommend that to people.
Is aventurine worth pulling on his rerun if I don’t manage to get his light cone or are the four star light cones good enough to cover for a lack of light cone.
Aventurine has amazing LC options because each LC opt just depends on whatever team you put him on. His sig makes it so that he works for every team w/o swapping LCs, but the other options give him pros/cons.
I have Feix and Robin both with LC E0, didn't have time to play when I started but do now, I have 30k saved at the moment since starting 4 days ago, who would you recommend saving for in future?
Pela is just better than black swan pela generates the same amount stacks as her or even more with her having low alt cost only if black swan is e1 can I see her being better
Speaking of sustain choice mattering for teams. Have you tried Fu Xuan with Trend of Universal Market vs borisin encounters? Because you want stacks? Boy do we get stacks.
@@donnyv4750 It's a thing if facing the robot and full pack. Hoolay doesn't spawn with 4 adds. The Borisin pack attacks so often it's kinda silly how fast those stacks build/
Acheron just needs another Jiaoqiu to drop them she'll be back. Feixiao does not gap FF or Acheron as bad as people think AT E0 S0. The glazing gotta stop for that foxian.
The real issue imo is basing it on E0S0. Acheron is more effected by not having Sig then theres someone like Jade thats a completely different char at E1. Maybe they need a E1S1 tier list
So if feixiao has a stronger team, why is ff at the top too, shes limited to one team, acheron has more team options than ff.. prydeyn are full of hypocritical idiots.
FF has generally been outcompeting Acheron, but even then it’s actually because prydwen has her in specialist tiers for some reason. So the performances of the two don’t impact each other’s rating.
@@JohnDoe-si4eg you can't just make up criteria to support one case but not use the same justification for the other character in apex tier. Both ff and feixiqo are in apex tier yet they said feixiao is better due to team . Yet ff only has one team. Ff harmony trailblazer, ruan mei and lingsha . Yet acheron has jiaoqui kafka black swan , Guinaifen, pela. She is more flexible than ff team... so other way, their tier lists make no sense
@@muhammadwaheed1027 The tier lists make no sense only if you glaze Acheron to kingdom come. Acheron’s BiS team is outperformed by FF’s and both fall off hard without their dedicated support. It’s simple as.
Im glad HuoHuo got the T0 spot she deserved last tier list. I cant wait to sit back & laugh at folks who had chosen to skip HuoHuo when they pull Sunday & realize they need more energy. Tingyun is there for energy, sure, but she isn’t a sustain. Now people are gonna beg for a HuoHuo rerun😏
@@JohnDoe-si4eg And the craziest part about that is that when HuoHuo initially released, folks were saying “skip, dead patch, filler patch, Fu Xuan is all you need” while also being aware that everyone in the game used energy, Feixiao & Acheron not withstanding. So for someone like me who started in 1.4, this is an absolute win. I don’t know what they are talking about. Nothing in the game provides energy besides certain traces lightcones Tingyun & HuoHuo. As long as HuoHuo can still supply energy, cleanse, & heal, & buff, she’s staying in tier 0.
@@BmanRockhart HuoHuo actually a really good sustainer. Biggest issue is that hoyo doesn’t really have content that makes the difference between sustainers actually matter (like HuoHuo godly cleanse), and so has been leaning into making them subdps units. Personally she should have been t0 for a lot longer than she was, but now faces stiff competition from Lingsha (she’s actually pretty strong outside of break too, but how nutty she can be outside of it won’t really be clear until 2.7 iykyk).
@@JohnDoe-si4eg Yeah, she’s heals pretty well all things considered. I would argue Apocoliptic Shadow & Pure Fiction are the modes which sustains shine. You don’t need a sustain there, but sustains can be pretty useful, especially for breaking or cleaning up mobs. That is unfortunate for HuoHuo. But honestly, I think it’s fine. She’s practically like a harmony/nihility/Abundance unit in one with all her kit provides. Fu Xuan kinda fits that bill too but only a little bit. Fu Xian’s ult & even basic can deal damage, but it’s not consistent like Aventurine or Lingsha’s. I agree. I don’t know why they weren’t seeing her insane value beforehand either. Lingsha is insane, & I’m glad I pulled for her on my second account. She’ll be my go to sustain in the event we get characters from Fate Stay Night crossover. Which, I don’t see why we wouldn’t, they’re taking a year to release it after all.
@@BmanRockhart Imo the best thing about HuoHuo’s sustain is that she has the best cleanse in the game, but hoyo’s actually not really that heavy with the debuffs atm. If they were then her and Lingsha are easy top 2 sustains even before we consider all the other value adds they got. Yeah a lot of people slept on Lingsha. I really do think the community judges characters on vibes and don’t ever actually read what the kits are. The meta in this game is legit pretty easy to follow, but you just gotta read and a lot don’t. HuoHuo as the best 1.X sustain when you don’t need SP positivity should have been obvious the second she dropped. But people just didn’t get it.
My guy really went on an inane 20 min rant (regarding Acheron). She is just abysmally worse than Feixiao and Firefly @ E0S0 levels of investment (which is Prydwen's criteria). If anything, more characters should be above her - Boothill and Yunli chief among them. This is all backed up by hard cold data in both CN and Global; it's neither controversial nor shocking if you ask me. The only argument about this tier list being wrong could be that Feixiao should be in a tier of her own (Tier 0, obviously); then you could downgrade Firefly to 0.5 (along with Boothill and Yunli) and bring Acheron's ass all the way down to Tier 1 along with Ratio (they have remarkedly similar results in recent MoC rotations).
What are you waffling about my dude? Did you just look at the character usage in MoC and call it hard cold data? The last 2 MoCs didn't cater to Acheron at all, so if people had Fei or Firefly those two teams worked much better. The next MoC is Swarog with Trotters, which is definitely on Acheron's slay list, so will that mean that Fei ends up washed up at that point because people would start using Acheron? Based on your hard cold data, it would, wouldn't it? Your cold-hard data is BS and you know it, if you check damage calculations for 0-cycles, at E0S0 Acheron vs E0S0 Fei, in their best teams, the difference is 300k on the current HP values of the mobs in MoC12 part 1. Both will still do 0-cycle, and both will still do tons of damage if you play them right. Also, Firefly, blows both of them out of the water at the Trio fight, so again, what cold hard data? Open a spreadsheet, put everything in, buffs, gear, and stats and you will see that the DMG difference is quite smaller than you would expect. Then do the same for Yunli and Ratio and you will see that those two are on a different planet when compared to Acheron. SURE Yunli performs much better into Hoolay vs how Acheron performs in that fight, but that's just one side of the current MoC my dude, and it won't be the same for every MoC 12 from here on. Prydwen's tier list shouldn't only be for the current MoC, that's what the MoC analytics are there for, but it seems like they are making decisions based on the current MoC line-up/buffs, or I guess, the last two MoCs.
@@EddieBlake215 I skimmed trough your post, but the "hard cold data" is regarding the last three rotations for MoC. If Acheron is mediocre in all recent rotations (and as such she is incredibly easy to counter) maybe there is something wrong with her kit? BTW, two of those rotations include Choir Trio which in theory should be good for her... and all rotations have a floor with lightning weakness in 60%+ of elite/boss enemies.
@@AngelOnerom So AFAIK, 2.3 MoC usage saw Acheron at ~64%, 2.4 MoC usage saw Acheron at ~64% again, and 2.5 MoC saw Acheron's usage drop to ~40%. On the CN side of things. So, next MoC when she gets a rotation that she's good at, and will probably move higher with Fei's usage rate dropping, does that mean that she's no longer "mediocre" and we throw Fei into the dumps because her usage will drop? Also, talking about the Choir fight, did you look at the teams that were most used/had the least cycles? Acheron is showing up on that fight at least 3 times in the 1-6 cycles range, BUT Firefly and Rappa are much better at that fight, so... why use Acheron if you have both?
@@EddieBlake215 I never mentioned usage rate. I'm talking strictly about average cycle clears. She is worse than Dr. Ratio, Yunli, Feixiao and Firefly (and on par with Boothill) if you take into account the last 3 rotations (Prydwen's data).
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You think Super Break is HSR's Dendro? Like too broken?
I agree it's too broken because if HSR decided to one day f it over
That would negatively impact the game tremendously
Pretty much. Any time they introduce these "dendro/superbreak" mechanics for the "normies/causals" who can't actually team build or play intelligently it brings the whole game down. Why build anything else when superbreak functions just as well if not BETTER and more EFFICIENTLY than other archetypes? Sure it's just an option but it's just annoying when you've been speed tuning and crit building for your favorite character and then they release a playstyle that says fuck you to all of it and just enables full clears on auto. On top of all this they release some insanely strong breakers like ff and boothill like they just wanna add salt to the wound. Don't wanna rant but I always dread these types of dendro shit because it just makes all my progress feel like ass because the new shit requires NONE of the stat investment I've been building since I started the game. Sorry for the rant lmao.
No.. bad players are just complaining because the game isn't "buff the hell out of one character and press a button" anymore.. People can't evolve and are ignorant enough to think that Hoyo doesn't have an answer for it
Oh yes but also no. Super break feels like something the devs just made up on the spot with zero thought put into it. It's hella braindead and poorly designed.
Dendro at least explored many different team comps even if Hyperbloom is the most abusable.
It's not just too broken, it's Super Broken
Like you've said, Prydwen is just terrified to make the necessary changes because of the outrage from, let's call them unstable, people. The whole purpose of T0, T0.5, T1, T1,5, T2 etc system they've switched to is to soften the blow when the character is moved down. Tier 1 sounds a whole lot better than B Tier does, doesn't it? Yet it's the same thing.
Given that they used to have S+ and S, T1 would be A tier, but point taken.
Prydwen has appealed to the masses for a long time now. Their tier lists are not completely useless, but they don't show any effort in testing or trying stuff, they just show what the most popular opinion is at that moment.
Angry mains (mostly Jing Yuan mains) would constantly use their data against them so they gave up on having their own opinions and just do whatever the data says, it's sad.
That's not how it works lol, S+ tier was split into T0 and T0.5, that's why it's a half tier and not a full one.
This was the whole reason they rewoked the list.
S tier is now T1 and T1.5, A tier is T2 and B tier is T3.
@@crashsparrow6943 S+ itself was pretty much the same idea. Who should've been A, was S, who should've been B, was A and so on, all because actual S tier characters were moved even higher into stupid S Ultra Pro Max category. This unnecessary fragmentation and inflation of the amount of top tiers is always just an attempt to make people feel better.
Tierlists are important but I feel like people take them too seriously without thinking for themselves. Within the past month or so I've seen a ton of people saying Acheron "fell off" and that she's bad now, that she's going to be powercrept extremely soon, pretty much acting like she's unusable. Because the current content doesn't favor her as much, even though she can still brute force most of the content in the game within 2-3 cycles. Lots of theory crafting but not a lot of actually playing the game.
I don't know what Iyo was going on at @9:48, but Black Swan's Arcana doesn't add stacks for Acheron on the enemy turns. Only Jiaoqiu does. Technically, both Black Swan and Little Gui should do as well as they have a similar mechanic where stacks go up on an enemy turn, but they don't, which is really really annoying. As a note, Black Swan does add stacks for Acheron when new mobs join the field, like the 2nd wave in MoC or when you are getting new waves in PF or when the Elites/Bosses summon mobs, like the weeds that the Abundeer summons, or the Fishes the annoying Sanction Mech summons.
Anyway, my beef with the current Prydwen tierlist isn't that they lowered Acheron, she's worse than Feixiao when you take team compositions and the current MoC 12 fights/buffs, BUT she's not much worse, and she's definitely not on the same level as Ration and Yunli... So anyway, I'm expecting to see Acheron back to T0 next MoC because we're gonna have Swarog in one of the parts for MoC 12 next and Dotcheron eats up Swarog on a silver platter.
In regards to the Arcana thing, he may have been misremembering from the pre-release state. She used to create the stacks on enemy turns in the Acheron Beta testing but was patched out. Probably because they decided to add it to the Jiaqiou kit instead.
As for Tier Lists, I don't personally put much stake in them. By their nature they are extremely limited and subjective. For example, they used to leave out the herta shop lightcones from their calculations because they were 5 star cones. No sigs as well means that characters that rely on them like Acheron are gonna drop in the tiers. Before the addition of PF, all erudition characters would be permanently in the bottom tiers. Tier lists really are taken way too seriously.
I've used BS with Acheron before and the arcana only applies on the automatically when two or more enemy get summon, if I remember it only gave Acheron one
This deadass needs to be pinned 😭
1. The tierlist is made because of the buffs MOC had in the last few months and since many of them were follow-up, followup characters like Ratio and Yunli are higher up.
2. I have an Acheron E0S0 and I do have Jiaoqui and Silver and Pela and her damage is just not strong enough to easily clear anymore even when on element. Now, yes, you can say she would with lightcones, more eidolons or more limited characters that I don't own, but like prydwen tried to explain not all characters do have this problem, Feixiao doesn't. That's why she's one tier higher now and the downgrade makes total sense.
3. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love her design, but it's correct that new players should ask themselves the question, if they really want to pull for her on the rerun. Especially when considering the raw DPS numbers that have been posted for Rappa on prydwen. She does double Acherons damage in a 3 enemy scenario and I'm sure other new DPS will hit similar numbers. It's generally not recommended to pull for DPS characters on reruns. We know this, new players may not.
This. I remember when Jingliu was still considered one of the top picks when she reran beside Acheron and alot of CCs highly recommended to get her as well for your other team... Only to get severely powercrept by Firefly super break 2 patches later.
Pulling on DPS reruns is always a bad idea unless you just really like the character or want their E1/E2/LC, since it's very likely they'll be powercrept by the newer DPS on raw damage per cycle.
I am a newish player, seriously considering pulling Acheron. I think she can fill a big gap I have in my account.
I don't have any of the limited followup units (No Topaz, No Feixiao, no Adventurine) so I can't run that team.
I have a pretty good Firefly Team (Firefly, HMC, Ruan Mei, Lingsha) and I usually run DoT team on the other half (Kafka, Black Swan, Robin + sustain) my DoT team is really starting to have difficulty clearing content and I'm struggling to put together another team.
I don't really have any other DPS characters (I started playing playing after ratio was given out, so he isn't on my account), So I think the upcoming Acheron rerun will help he fill out my second team.
@@1norwood1 you can do that, but keep in mind that Acheron E0S0 is already struggling in endgame. I heard a dot-sustain will be added soon and if I were you I would just wait for the servant-team-DPS that should arrive in 3.0 or 3.1
@@1norwood1 bro no bro, take supports... theres aventurine, sunday and fugue, probably the best dps will appear and is firefly
That on 1 in itself is stupid AF, it defeats the purpose of tier list itself actually rank how great the character is by design and not how its currently fare within meta of some endgame Weekly content. Prydwen doesn't have tier list, they have weekly meta list.
10:04 Either you explained it very poorly or you are just flat out wrong. Acheron doesnt get Ult stacks when DoT triggers. She only gets stacks when the DoT get applied.
I used Acheron/Black Swan a lot so here are the Black Swan actions that will give Acheron a stack. Using her Basic, Skill or Ult will always give one stack no matter how many enemies are hit (Assuming you have the recommended 120% Effect Hit Rate on Black Swan).
Enemies being summoned will will instantly get Black Swans DoT and give one stack to Acheron. Once again it doesnt matter how many enemies got summoned, as long as they all enter the field at the same time it conts as only one stack.
Here is the tricky part. For some reason (blanacing I suppose), the DoT being applied to new enemies only gives stack for summoned enemies, like the Luofu Wolfs or the swarm cloning. New enemis entering the field as part of a new wave or delayed arival like in Pure Fiction doesnt give Acheron stacks even through they got afflicted my Black Swans DoT.
Edit: I think the key to understanding what gives stack (or "Crimson Knot") is this sentence form her Talent Discription "This effect [Crimson Knot being applied] can only trigger once for every ability used.". This also count for enemy actions, so a summon entering the field is tied to another enemies Action but a enemy entering the field normaly isnt. This also explains why Guinaifen can only give one stack even throught her skill can apply two debuffs, one on skill use and the other on the enemy turn.
Iyo, im sorry but 31:38 I do agree with Serra here. Acheron and Yunli at E0S0 is on equal playing field. Idc what you say on how out of touch you are but E0S0 Acheron isnt as strong as how you make it out to be. For the past MoC, Acheron has not been performing well. You should be thankful that Prydwen even went out of their way to consider S5 GNSW for Acheron. When you look at the other DPS, its always the Herta Shop LC and everyone and their mother knows that Herta Shop LC on Acheron is ass. And even then, S5 GNSW is a massive downgrade vs her LC. Not just in terms of damage but also in terms of frequency. Losing that 1 extra stack of Crimson Knot hurts in the long run.
prydwen consider whatever f2p LC (herta store or standard 4 star LC at S5) is best for a unit in tier lists, for most DPS that’s the herta store one because the destruction/hunt herta LC is just better than the 4 stars for most units. they didn’t go out of their way for acheron specifically
@@minasimmsIt used to be pure ftp LC until Acheron released and she was bad with fermata and the herta one. They decided to allow gacha LCs so she could be rated with GNSW.
@@AristineSilvanus Acheron 0 cycles 1 cost the first half of the moc and Firefly can't, thats all that You need to know to know that Acheron is better than Firefly bcz that battle is literally FOR Firefly and Firefly is on t0, so Acheron is better than a t0 and You are talking about someone that is not Even on top 5 dps
@@JohnDoe-si4eg That's incorret bro, Fu xuan best 4 star "F2P" lightcone is a gacha one too the Landau's Choice, Pela best 4 star is a gacha too Resolution, Tingyun best 4 star is Dance Dance Dance, and there's more examples, Acheron was not the first character to have a 4 star gacha S5 to be her best LC.
@@Ab-gi1texolze video right ? With god tier relic and 100x retry
Thank you for the detailed reasoning behind the Acheron drop
I’m a returning player and don’t have any new dps and was looking forward to her rerun and the entire community was makin me feel like it’s a mistake to pull for her
So I appreciate the re assurance
Subbed
Alright time to leave my constructive criticism
Ive said this a million times on every single video by this point. Stop talking about hypercarry. Not even the casuals are talking about double harmony/ hypercarry anymore. I even see the jingliu and dhil twitter stans starting to say hypercarry sucks. Thats how you know its bad. Nobody is playing hypercarry, theres no need to say “the casuals are bringing down acheron with their hypercarry.” Just stop mentioning it, this group of people your talking about is probably less then 1% of the playerbase.
As someone who likes dotcheron, you are both overrating it, and spreading misinformation. Swan doesnt give another stack on the enemy turn. If she did, swan would always be played with acheron no question. Everyone would talk about it. Acheron would probably still be #1. But thats not the case. I wish it was though.
I agree people are being extremely unfair to acheron. Pyrdwen needs to just say “this is about teams not characters.” Because yeah, when you compare the quadruple limited fua team to e0s0 acheron with no jiaoqiu, of course acheron isnt in the same tier. I dont really think e0s0 acheron is in the same tier as feixiao, but when you include e0s1, acheron is easily as strong as feixiao.
Also e0s0 yunli is definitely as strong as e0s0 acheron, if not stronger. Even when you compare costs Tingyun lynx yunli sparkle vs acheron jiaoqiu pela gallagher. That character is very ridiculous. If yunli was attached to better characters and the puppets of order boss didnt exist i might even call her t0.
One point nobody is talking about btw is relic quality. You need ABSURD relic quality for the fua team. You need that 90+ cr feixiao with somehow getting a ton of CD. You need to get that 4K attack 121 speed robin. You need that topaz with 134 speed and good crit ratios. The only character thats “easy” to build on that team is aventurine. And even then theres a ton of room for improvement with him. With acheron you just stack all your good relics on her, then give your jiaoqiu and pela as much speed as they can have and nothing else truly matters that much because jiaoqius damage doesnt matter and neither does pelas. Its very easy for somebodys personal acheron team to just be better then their fua team just because they have a much easier time getting to insane acheron relics.
i think you missed the point
the tierlist is for E0S0 and while acheron might not be on the same level as Fiexiao, she by no mean is in equal level of ratio or yunli at e0s0
also the issue with dot acheron is the need of skill points
acheron want to use skill, kafka want to use skill, Black swan preferably want to use skill and gallagher is not great to sustain a non break team, and he only apply the debuff once
if they kept Jiaqou stacking with trend of universal LC stacking then acheron would have gotten her ult very very frequently so in beta they remove the interaction
the other issue on acheron team is that she alone is the damage dealer
still she slaps end game content relatively easy at e0s0 with the regular team of jiaou pela and a preservation sustain
so if prydwen want to dump her down for team inflexibility then at least check her and the other 2 she is put next to on the tier list
also prydwen assess a character based on the current end game content and for the last few patches we were getting lightning resistant enemies which is not address anywhere in the assessment
She is 1000% Yunli tier(use her BiS team before you judge). They said in the discord Ratio will probs be moved down in the near future.
They also said Yunli with sigs is t0.
Acheron is better than Firefly in 1 cost in a battle that is Made for Firefly (MoC first half), so, Firefly is t0.5 or Acheron is t0, and we know Firefly is t0 so yeah, logisctic, btw Feixiao needs the same investiment that Acheron needs at 1 cost, Acheron 0 cycling the first half and Feixiao 0 cycling Hoolay, so yeah, they are OBVIOUSLY at the same tier, and Even with that Feixiao has better teams, but it's not better even with that by himself, bcz the farm that You need to do in Acheron is less than the farm You need to do in all the Feixiao team, only to have the same results in a single target fight that Acheron does in a multi target fight
@@Ab-gi1te what an out of touch response. Please point out where on the tier list criteria they list cost. Quote it so the whole class can see it.
@@JohnDoe-si4eg bro, then the e0s0 tier list has no sense bro, the hole tier list is nonsense if they follow your argument, is pure logistic, if You need me to talk about costs of team, then You need to search more info of the Game
@@JohnDoe-si4eg want me to Say You the channel that shows Acheron can 0 cycle 1 cost the cups? (If i send the link RUclips deletes it thats why i'm saying to send the channel)
I regret not getting Lingsha just like Robin who i skiped for FF but i cant pull everything and with Sunday and Fugue on the way i had to pick one ( Sunday ) or both over her and maybe pick her on her rerun.
Also in this MoC at least SB blade is actually better then crit blade lol.
Are you trolling? If you going pick up Sunday why would you skip lingsha
@@Meckenn ? Because he’s the new Meta support and sure Lingsha technically fits into that but her only support is related to the break team.
A better sustain would be Huohuo with the Energy recharge or even Aven for his SP+ nature and if the new summon meta actually makes a 5th team member like the leaks suggest who knows maybe they’ll be able to be shielded.
Not to mention in the break team with Fugue it’s possible now to run sustainless with an actual damage increase so not getting Lingsha to guarantee Sunday with a good shot at Fugue or possibly get the new 3.0 DPS with the summon mechanic of it’s cool enough.
@@The_CodFish69I mean what if the new summon character has a break component in which case would mean lingsha is your best sustain option? We don't even know if a summon dps is definitely coming in 3.0 since leaks aren't exactly certain. My point being be careful of planning around leaks is all.
@@mr.protagonist5639 but of if I can only get Sunday ( the RM/Robin of the new meta ) or a sustain that may or may not be the BIS sustain for said meta team…. It’s not a hard choice.
i play firefly EoSO with gallaghar and I full clear easily, I don´t think you have to regret skipping lingsha, she might be better in the future with a comming summon meta, but you rather want to have the harmony for the meta over the sustain, that can be replaced
The reason why acheron can't move down is because all the previous versions of the endgame content didn't help her ( exept for PF ) and SHE WAS ABLE TO CLEAR ALL OF THEM ON TIME without any help from the buffs
So if other teams can clear in time with the help from the buffs and acheron also does the same thing WITHOUT those buffs i believe she should stay on top
Yeah thats pretty much the definition of being an apex unit is clearing all the content easily without buffs. I think a lot of people didn't pull Jiaoqiu but they pulled RObin and Ruan mei so it seems like Feixiao and FIrefly are much better.
The previous MoC is basically the same MoC as her debut and she still underperformed in their data despite it including S1, which obviously favors her because basically everyone has her LC. It only makes sense that s0 would drop down.
@@sct77absolutely not
@@10nessee How so? I get that everyone has been repeating the whole "omg Acheron is the best" thing for months, but the data is there and it doesn't lie. Even Kafka/BS cleared her debut MoC faster than she did, we need to stop judging based on dmg per screenshot.
@@sct77 What was the turbulence of acheron release? The memory imprint one?
can certainly agree its confusing having Acheron on the same tier as Ratio and Yunli but i also understand Feixiao being in a tier of her own to where i feel like they just needed to move the entire DPS list down 1 from where it is rn.(though Bronya E0 being that high is kinda confusing also)
>Acheron isn't bad guys, just pull Eidolons for her and her teammates and she's all set!
Bro, every 5* is good if you can just whale for their Eidolons, what do you mean?! 🤚😂
It's honestly pretty simple... Acheron has to deal almost all the damage on the team herself (maybe Dotcheron no, but Dot is where it is), wheras Feixiao has Robin spitting out damage procs at an alarming rate and a dedicated sub-DPS like Topaz, Moze or March to add more team damage. The final slot can be a sustain with a follow up or another action advancer like Bronya. Very few things are able to withstand that amount of punishment to the point where sustain becomes necessary, so I mostly run sustainless.
When I do need sustain it's a bit cope, since I don't have Aven or Lingsha. Right now I'm running a 160 speed Luocha on 4 eagle for stacks from turn cycling lol. I do have an E5 Bronya to make up for it tho.
People invalidating Ratio for being "Free" are fucking insane, this is still the best standalone hunt character in the game and doesn't have any numbers compared to "free" characters, he wasn't an amazing gift to the community for nothing, he's a solid 5 star with 5 star potential and outstanding performance in his niche.
Also repeating again and again how much it's "weird" for another 5 star character to be on the same level as him is misleading as fuck, of fucking course Acheron reaches higher numbers, but with the amount of restrictions tied to those numbers Ratio once again surpasses her as a standalone character, if i was a new player looking for a character to invest i'd 100% choose Ratio over Acheron.
As for Feixiao team comps most comments are also misleading, if she doesn't have Aventurine+Robin+Signature LC she is not at all better than Ratio when compared at E0S0.
You're delusional. Feixiao only needs Robin. That's it. She sure as hell doesn't need Aventurine or her LC to surpass Ratio. There are plenty of clears on RUclips, there's no excuse for you to be lying like this.
Also, who's ever picking up Ratio over Acheron today? He's neither free, nor anywhere near Acheron's level.
Feixiao only needs Robin. She doesn't need Aventurine or her sig to surpass Ratio.
Also, no one in their right mind is picking up Ratio over Acheron today.
@@Lewa500 Ratio requires way less investment to get way better results, there's not much 'space' for debate on that, and no only Robin is unable to make Feixiao better than him, but even that way give Robin to Ratio and he's still above Feixiao
@@mogamiaki211 Is that supposed to prove anything? We have 0 cycles with characters like Jing Yuan and Yanqing without any of these credit card cheats that you mentioned, are these top tier too?
It's a team based game, him being stronger standalone means very little. But even if we consider that meritless distinction, its not even true.
I think it’s the same thing as Jingliu and Acheron. One has a premium team that isn’t likely to change while the other only has potential upgrades. Like you can’t really get a better sustain for Fei, and Robin is already the best support she can be for Fei, really the only person that can be replaced is topaz but even that would at max be a 10% upgrade while you can replace literally everyone and get better results on an Acheron team
7:10 Bro is out of touch as always. Maybe because we don't have 600$ like you to just buy every single character? A lot of players are just F2P, 5$ thingy or BP. WE DON"T have jades to pull for every single character and LC!!! We NEED to make choices. I can send you my paypal account. If you will donate me 600$ every 3 weeks (because that is the cost of E0S1 in the worst case scenario. 100$ = 40 pulls) I promise that I will pull for every single new unit and LC.
As for Lingsha it's the same story. If we have E6 Gallachad then pulling for E0 Lingsha is pointless. E1 is great and surely every single F2P want that. But we CAN'T get this.
Anyway. I kinda agree with everything else. Good vid. But that one line about why players are skipping X character is always annoying. I hope I explained that well and easy enough to understand.
Hey man this is great content tho. It's like them moving stuff around just creates discussion and drama in the community and now CC just farm it for content haha
my bet is that the next big DPS will be both superbreak and FUA together and everyone will lose their minds xD
That would be insane, but I'd fork with it big time.
next dps will be either crit dps or summon I call it now, I think superbreak will fall off after 3.X follow up will probably stay strong because there is follow up for everything aside of superbreak.
Add healer to that list and you have Lingsha. She does ridiculous damage with HMC on the team.
Fantastic analysis. Couldn't agree more with you.
My Favorite Thing is this Support is useless cause no main lead. Then regret not getting said Support two patches later becuse Main lead release. But people not understanding Value of Character is nothing new. Looks at Genshin Kazuha first release people saying Skip he just 5 Sucrose and Then by 2nd release being must grab.
I think personally, the stronger your FUA team is, the better Lingsha gets compared to Aventurine. Becuase, if you kill stuff faster, then you won't build Aven stacks as fast, whereas while Linsha's FUA might be a little frequency might be a little less, its still more consistent . Also, I agree. Each tier is like a spectrum, so some characters in the same tier, but even if one may be just a little bit better, or more versatile, they're still together. So, yeah Acheron should/can still be tier 0
Take cue from GI, it's part of the whole rotation, not some oversight or bad decision to make Super Break OP, just happened that the spotlight now is on Super Break. Others will have their time in the spotlight when their time come. Yes, it shares a huge resemblance to the Hyperbloom situation back then. But guess what? Other reactions in GI took or are currently taking their turn in the spotlight again after Hyperbloom.
I don't believe Hoyo never saw this coming, especially they had similar prior players reaction for Hyperbloom in GI. Although each Hoyo game title is helmed by different teams, it's evident that they share resources, info between teams, so I believe they intended Super Break the way it did, it's part of the plan, and they also propped up FUA in the midst of it. Just wait, the rest will have their time to shine again. Just that you'll probably need to add 1 new character made to prop whichever old weakened team up at whichevergiven time. Just play who you like.
I need to say this again, I recommend that all content creators take time to look at the data they’ve collected in their MoC analytics tab, Acheron as a single character is definitely stronger than Ratio, but she has a worse average cycle clear over the last 3 MoC cycles than both Ratio and Yunli. You can argue potential and personal experience, but you can’t argue with results, especially when collected at random. I agree they should harp more on how team builds/strength effect the rankings, but in their defense they make it clear in their change logs that Acheron has moved down as a result of her team not being up to par
Acheron best team is Jiaoqiu, Robin and Aventurine her team is absolutely up to par and I 2 cycle Hoolay easily E0S0 Acheron with that team same cycles as Firefly with Ruan Mei, Lingsha and Harmony MC. Acheron can 0 cycle first half at E0S0 just like Firefly. Prydwen don't even have that team on there at all for some reason so they can't really argue her team is not up to par when they not even using her best team to begin with.
@@kennethyoung7457 Oh don’t get me wrong I’m with you brother, I personally think she is DEFINITELY t0 worthy don’t get me wrong, she is very strong even still, but the data they have doesn’t reflect that. It’s not that they’re choosing to neglect those teams to skew results, it’s that the random accounts they’re scanning aren’t running it for whatever reasons they have.
@@seunabe4612 Prydwen just doesn't seem that credible tbh if results are based purely on random players usuage rates and they don't actually test out teams themselves. It is fun to discuss the results with people though as pretty much no other tier lists for this game is that popular.😊
@@kennethyoung7457 Are Jiaoqiu and Robin E0S0 as well?
For the data you also got to consider data size relative to usage rate. Average can be heavily skewered on smaller data size. Currently Ratio specifically is heavily skewered right now, data size of 150 which is 1/10 the size of Acheron and with 3 units paired with him being over 60% with any others at best barely over 10%. Making his data very linear, while Acheron has a more spread data. So it's hard to make an accurate assessment based on data that's not comparative in size or spread. There's also others variables you'd have to consider also.
Here before people that didn't watch the video misinterpret iyo's take 😂
I hope they keep releasing support for acheron, imagine a counter debuffer... That would be so cool
The last 10 mins was so cathartic, thank you for saying all this and this video
TL;DR "They dropped my bae Acheron to 0.5 T and I dont agree"
Thanks, you saved me 30 mins
You guys have to make up your minds on who I cape for. Lmao every video y’all got a new waifu for me.
@@Iyoversesounds like you get around lmao
@@Iyoverse I don't think a man like you can be tied down, a new game, a new waifu lol
@@tkrstore4334 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yeah Acheron can't move down unless Ratio also does, they really need to move more characters sometimes.
No.
Feixiao is in T0 also because of the new supps she works with.
Moze & March 7
Which indirectly also buffed Ratio.
So Ratio stays
Although Acheron is definitely better than Ratio, the data they’ve collected on their site shows that both Yunli and Ratio have a better average cycle clear than her over the past 3 MoC’s so by that metric, she actually does belong right next to him and not above him
@@martinhkis3169 So are you saying that acheron and ratio are on the same level? Its not a matter of where ratio is is, its that assertion that by putting acheron and him in the same tier that they are of the same power level. Which they most definitely are not.
@@kmel3588 Well, seunabe4612 just gave the actual reasons.
This list is always made without signature LC, so if we account for that as well, they are sort of on the same level, as Ratio has much better free LC options.
@@kmel3588 I'm pretty sure the Prydwen tier lists are based on the current Moc/PF/AS rotations, so if they perform similarly in them, they are on the same tier.
I mean.. I feel like they explain it pretty well. It's no lightcone, current MOC, and strength and cost of value from supports. Maybe people are just dumb idk, but I can look at this tier list and understand what they are saying and it's pretty straight forward.
It's not current MoC what they judge. It's several rotations worth of data and overall value. At least that's what their criteria stipulates. "These tier lists rate characters based on their average performance in Memory of Chaos, Pure Fiction and Apocalyptic Shadow regardless of turbulence, whimsicality and cacophony."
hey I always chill with the videos of this style
good vid 🔥
This is peering into leak territory, but I think new Tingyun can become a great teammate for Acheron because in a team of:
Acheron
Tingyun/Fugue
Ruan Mei/other Nihility
Lingsha
Tingyun can give her buff to Lingsha so she can apply debuff with any attacks, and she can use Pearls to apply debuff herself, helping generate stacks for Acheon.
And naturally her presence add Superbreak damage to the team, which can be a solution for the issue with normal Acheron team where she is the only one dishing out damage as a Hypercarry.
In this team, Acheron can be build a mix of Break and Crit so one Nihility can be replaced with Ruan Mei to balance her normal crit damage and Superbreak damage, while buffing the team as a whole.
Depending on how the final version of Tingyun ends up being, this can be a variation of break team where Acheron can at least deal some damage prior to breaking enemies unlike Firefly, and they have easier time with off element mobs because we have 2 Omni Breakers in the team with Acheron and Tingyun ults
Yea my issue with the change is that like dot, acheron isn't fully fleshed out. Though its just a hard pill to swallow that shes carrying her team and aside from jiao, the rest are battery.
I've seen a lot of feixiao doing lower dmg than acheron, but feixiao and her team is just blasting damage to the team.
What I've realized from playing dotcheron in the recent AS is that acheron would want a fua/summoner/servant to rapid fire debuffs so she can ult often while also being a viable subdps.
Can't wait to see what 3.0 holds for her and other teams, especially dot.
I like that we're heading towards more diverse play styles for each new character, but I wish hoyo would give older characters quality of life adjustments or modernise them.
I don't get the Acheron BS team point, the tier list is heavily influenced by their MoC data and they can see how teams perform. In their data, BS doesn't seem to help her clear faster outside of maybe wind weak encounters.
it's genuinely odd that the team argument is why she drops, when she performs so well without any proper dedicated supports but jiaoqiu.
acheron at S0E0 performs bad not good at all, people that say that have either eidolons or her LC, mostly both
I still want an Abundance/Preservation DoT/Debuff centred unit that works better with Acheron. Similar to how Aventurine is better with follow-up. Lingsha was a step towards that but her main stick is with Break teams.
Fugue is gonna be insane for Break teams - and if she doesn't receive any detrimental changes to her skill, then, with Acheron teams too
Honestly the exact reason why you say follow-up is good is another reason why Firefly is very good because everything about her team synergizes with each other firefly doesn't just do damage she supports her team by implanting fire weakness which most of her premium teammates now including Fugue are going to benefit from Gallagher and linxia give extra break damage harmony trailblazer makes everybody a DPS with competitive damage and you want me is just the glue that keeps everything together every part of the team works in tandem to achieve a greater goal and it's not just powering up one character to do a big hit everybody is contributing to the wind and it all doesn't just fall on one character
At the end of the day, there is a point to be made. And that's why prydwen shouldn't be taken that seriously if they are very inconsistent with how they evaluate characters, but also because we know how some people feel. Just because a character dropped a tier doesn't necessarily make them worthless, just like how moving them up not necessarily means they're the greatest thing ever. No one should exaggerate stuff like this
TIL DoT core could save my Acheron team. Also 2+2=2
The issue with HSR tier lists is the formats dont change fast enough to go deeper than who works best with the most recent characters. Instead of 12 stages once a month, if we had 4 stages every 10 days with different formats we would see units actually cement their positions in the meta due to reoccurring formats and favorable bosses. This would also get rid of the useless early stages we skip anyway.
I think the one point to solidify Iyo’s statement about FUA team being the best archetype in the game is that Follow Up Comps don’t have any inherent weakness & aren’t stifled by anything.
BREAK/SUPERBREAK teams need to bully down the toughness meter to get their damage. Enemies like Sam/Yanqing are hard counters to break
DOT can be triggered manually, & don’t need fast enemies but it really helps if enemies are super fast. And DOT currently needs a buff, crit, support, extra DOT triggers, etc. DOT is an exception, honestly
HYPERCARRY is a “eggs in one basket” situation. Enemies like Svarog & “Something Unto Death” can steal your DPS & now you’re screwed/SOL. Your supports can’t buff a unit who isn’t on field.
COUNTER comps need enemies who attack a lot. Kafka/Swarm King/DOT choir trio dude are the counters to Clara/Yunli, etc.
SUMMON meta isn’t here yet so that’s to be determined. Plus summons are outside of the initial turn order so they’re safe from getting CC/Debuffed/Stolen.
DEBUFFS don’t deal damage. They just hinder the enemy. Other than DOTS.
Acheron’s teams work for her so SHE HERSELF can do damage but she’s her own thing so I’m not really counting her.
FUA comps just do the damage plus extra damage depending on your teammates. Their kits work without having any conditions needed to make them work. Ratio needs debuffs but Moze/Gallagher can work.
Follow up TEAMS “buff” the TEAM & themselves by just doing damage & killing the enemy. That’s why I think FUA is such a “long term/endgame” account investment
not sure snyone cares, just my perspective on why i didnt get jiaoqiu the first time round (7:20):
- I was suspecting Acheron's power at the time and whether getting a support so limited to just her was worth it
- Robin and the new character Feixiao was set to have banners after him and I calculated I wouldn't have enough jades to go around for everybody
I frankly liked his design and ult animation so it had nothing to do with hating him
if ppl are mad now, wait till the rappa video, they arent ready for it
If you play this game, accept that your favourite character will be less relevant as time goes on. I don’t get why people get so emotionally invested in pixels.
Its a gacha game too, so eventually Acheron and other top tiers WILL fall off.
black swan and kafka don´t give acheron stacks in enemy turn because dot procs don´t give stack, only when they are applied, JQ is the only character that gives acheron stacks in enemy turn, because his ult applies debuffs everytime their turn starts
Catching up with u after the kara cancel talk and Holy shit how much is your view getting affected yoo
Decimated bro. I’m in the gutter. Lmao
The thing about Lingsha is her bunny is also a summon... Maybe a new meta later on for that? That would make her into 4 different categories. 25:47 - 29:03 .
It’s a team base game so off corse if there isn’t a character to maximise the ability of your characters than tier list is going to get affected. Currently Feixiao has way more team parts to maximise her ability .. so she’s stronger for now at least than Achron( she’s missing best harmony and sustain in my opinion)
Me who skipped Jiaoqiu accidentally becuz I took a break from the game after I got firefly and didn’t returned until Feixiao.
@@AyyitzStriker same here...
At least I got Rappa (the reason I came back to the game lol)
@@Lu_Kadjolo congrats on getting Rappa. Just waiting patiently for Fugue cuz I got guaranteed (I won Feixiao, Lost trying to get Topaz)
I skipped because I wanted the FUA units first. Also, the JQ banner release was bad timing and had terrible fillers.
It's a team game. A new player can't just be presumptuous to think all characters fit together. If such a person assumes that, that's on them, not Prydwen. You can't expect Prydwen to base the tier list around absolute fools making horrific assumptions, so I can't agree. I think the way Prydwen does things makes perfect sense for anyone with an above room temperature IQ, even in regard to new players. They just have to actually think to a minimal amount like a human being, as opposed to some sort of zombie.
Also, you really need to remember, this tierlist is specifically for full E0S0 teams, and uses averages based on the last 3 phases combined with internal testing with a casual player mindset in mind. All of that comes into play as to why units end up where they are on the list. Things like unit best teams and F2P alternatives are heavily considered too.
Edit: Okay, as a follow up, sorry, but you are in the ultra copium zone. No, E0S0 Acheron is not nearly as good as you are acting like she is. Yunli destroys her in many stages. She is absurdly better than Acheron against Hooley for example. And, yes, Acheron is better than her against Choir. But, they share a placement in the tierlist, so this back and forth makes sense. As more data came in, Yunli has looked better and better, not worse. There is a reason Yunli has soared passed Acheron in overall avgs. It's not quite as bad when you focus on their best team avgs. but I think you just don't realize how good Yunli actually is, or you are overestimating how good E0S0 Acheron is.
As for Dr. Ratio, his averages on his better teams are doing pretty good as more people have Robin now thanks to her recent rerun. While I think Acheron's averages edge his out more often than not, they aren't as far apart as I think you think they are, and I could see him being too close to justify him being moved down a tier from Prydwen's perspective at this point in time, especially considering avgs across the last 3 MoC. Because, remember, this is not a tierlist for the highest performing players at ultra 1% relics with DDD wind set shenanigans. This is a tierlist for the typical player which is why avgs. based on data hold more weight than say low cost speed clears posted on Bilibili. Prydwen has nothing to do with the latter and it would make 0 sense for them to be. With that being established, looking at the data, Acheron's avgs. are a lot closer to Ratio's than they are to Feixao's. It isn't as close as you seem to think it is for Feixaio, and it isn't as far as you think it is for Dr. Ratio, which is what causes this disconnect.
Doesnt acheron do good with pela and silverwolf, cause they both give stack (maybe not as fast as dot) but also give defence down for damage
To be clear. I've said from the start that Acheron is not F2P friendly, and is restricted by her Nihility unit passive. She also needs her Sig, and her only alternatives are all Gacha LC. And the whole excuse that she frees up Harmony units is BS when you look at her C2. She's a bait unit that requires high investment. And why wouldn't Hoyo make her that way after they saw the hype coming off her. Mine is E0S0, and has been struggling for a long time... 🤷
The thing to note is that this tierlist is also e0s0, and antillars also said that with her sig acheron is a whole different character and almost 87% of the people that have acheron pulled her sig(according to prydwen's data). With her sig she is t0 along with yunli
I've been running Acheron Kafka and Black Swan since she came out.
It's very funny seeing people mald over acheron and arguing about her for the past 6 months. I'm sitting over here never having pulled her or caring about her.
Thats a nice lineup for acheron u got kafka and black swan then robin but the skill points that u are using per turn with those heroes are the skill right not the basic attack then thats the problem with that it consumes alot of skill points for this team, its much better if u have jaqiou and pela you have the def reduc and stacks of roast by jaqiou up to 5 then u pop the ult with those upcoming new enemies equals to roast stack to all of those enemies equally to the highest stack then ult on acheron thats more efficient and it doesnt even cost u that much of investment rather than those 5star dot queens
I prefer to those who are newbies getting acheron that are free to play use those free 4star character that are not much to invest
Essentially u could use this team ups
Acheron, Pela, Guinafein then sustain u can use the fire mc if u dont have a good sustain or if u have Geapard that would be more better
i can't care less about a character tier list
only a Team tier list makes sense in a team & turn based game
then it is up to everyone to build up said teams, based around characters/playstyles they prefer (or can afford if f2p)
I didnt pull jq bc i use dotcheron sustainless and i find myself quite comfortable w this team, i am able to clear most game content even w max score, got often 40k in pf bc ofc this team is amazing in aoe content, got good scores on last and current AS bc plantylia and sunday healed and shielded so it was even easier to play dotcheron sustainless, in moc i either use pela bs gallagher or do dotcheron w gallagher, im planning on getting e1 bs and jq lc to finally do 0 cycle in moc w this team, its my fav acheron team, i dont like jq as a character and i have more fun playing dotcheron even though its not her best team
Yeah Swan+ Acheron is still my go to 2nd team anchors
I feel like Prydwen should really consider making a separate tierlist for every category with E0S1 in mind as well since so many characters benefit from their sig (case in point Acheron)
Acheron sig does not change that much from GNSW tbh people are vastly overrating how much that LC actually does. You won't even get an extra ult from that LC most of the time as the enemy is dead before Acheron gets 9 turns anyway if you build her.
@@kennethyoung7457 thats not how it works
The creator already said what it would be if this happens. It would just make tier zero bloated as they stated Yunli, Feixiao, and Acheron would be Tier 0.
What's the point? All characters benefit from their sigs. And from eidolons. You'll have to make 50 different tierlists and Prydwen is already incapable of making just one.
I dunno man, once I read their reasoning it all made perfect sense to me, if the average player loses their shit without reading that then its their fault, not prywden's. As for Acheron vs Ratio, keep in mind that they dont use limited 4* cones either afaik, so that alone creates a gap because there are no good free cones for Acheron,plus at E0S0 Ratio has WAY more solid partners and has good synergy with all limited harmonies, meanwhile Acheron is very restricted, so even if she deals more damage I can see that lack of versatility being the equalizer
Then there is me f2p, started on jingliu and aventurine banner, won all my 8 5050 in a row so far just pulling on characters I like that turned out to be good except my newest rappa still happy with her though 😄
Nahhh bro Acheron literally just feel off a cliff. Try doing an Acheron E0S0 (so without signature), together with Jiaoqui E0S0 and another character of your choice without their signature as well and then try to clear the current half of MoC. 😅 My best Acheron team couldn’t clear it under 6 turns and I have used all different DoT units. It’s just not possible.
Meanwhile break up teams just delivered it. 3 rounds for Break Himeko and Firefly and only one round for Rappa (without signature with only 130 break effect and Ruan Mei and MC and Lingsha), and still 3 rounds without Ruan Mei.
I’m 100% F2P. I use tier lists to give me a general idea, but I have never once felt I couldn’t make a proper team. I What the hell is the difference between 0 and 0.5. Who cares? Can you clear content? Yes? That’s it.
Wait is acheron with jiaoqiu and swan is more effective than jiaoqiu and pela? Never thought to try it
For Pure Fiction it is and if enemy is weak to wind but not ice in Apocalyptic Shadow like now its easily better especially with the DOT buff.
Hmm maybe ill have a reason to use her now. To me pela seems boring so i havng finished my acheron team yet but maybe i would with swan@kennethyoung7457
Rappa E0 on the same tier as E6 hunt March 7th!
As they say consistency is key ❤
I have S3 boundless choreo. Y’all think I should still get Acheron’s light cone or go for rappas?
Lingsha vs Aventurine is an interesting debate.. I prefer Aventurine, but Lingsha is definitely like that
In my opinion:
e0s0: feixiao>acheron
e0s1: feixiao>acheron
e1s1: feixiao>acheron
e2s1:feixiao
To the person in the chat: Stop the Huohuo slander. The precious angel literally cleanses AFK. She heals outside of her and your 10 hp character's turn. She gives energy. She gives atk buff. This can work in Boothill and FF teams too 😆Not so much Feixiao or Acheron since they don't want energy but in that case just use Aventurine Gallachad or Lingsha. Huo2 is the GOAT. I'm pretty sure she's also the best sustain option for a lot of the not T0-T0.5 DPS (outside of Yunli where I believe she is the BIS)
That being said. Whats Yanqing's team? Yan, Misha, Bronya/sparkle (skill points) , Gepard?
How does silver wolf do in acheron team?
Hm, it seems that the tierlist is falling apart.
I might just move to raw data for full build teams instead of "individual" character tierlist that needs a paragraph each and subdivide its own rows.
If the game wants to hyperspecialize characters to their ideal character or archetype this tierlist is waiting to burn. Lets see how they handle the FugueE1 and Ruan Mei
Why can't Acheron's top team use Peela?
Unless I misheard at 9:15
Is Aventurine suddenly not a sub-dps? And arguably a better one for FUA since he actually benefits crit unless you're building critsha (which is mid imo but you can make it work). People definitely underestimated her, but unless they're fire weak/she's on a meme build, her damage isn't equal to his on FUA in my experience. She can beat him on FUA team if they're fire weak and you can break with her, or the enemy doesn't attack often, otherwise he generally wins in DPS and stacks. If we get to a point in damage where he needs to skill often, then it'll will start skewing towards her more.
Also go play Acheron on S5 GNSW and say she's vastly superior to Yunli, because that's what they're talking about. As you said, many people didn't pull JQ, so try s5 GNSW without JQ and that's the average Acheron experience. I can't say I'd recommend that to people.
31:44 this is by far iyo’s greatest take of all time! Someone needs to do a top ten greatest/worst iyo take. “cough Gacha”
Is aventurine worth pulling on his rerun if I don’t manage to get his light cone or are the four star light cones good enough to cover for a lack of light cone.
Aventurine has amazing LC options because each LC opt just depends on whatever team you put him on. His sig makes it so that he works for every team w/o swapping LCs, but the other options give him pros/cons.
Who is playing double harmony e0 acheron. He is creating a boogie man so he can get a word in about hypercarry. What is with this fixation.
Team tier list? 🤔 makes sense
I have Feix and Robin both with LC E0, didn't have time to play when I started but do now, I have 30k saved at the moment since starting 4 days ago, who would you recommend saving for in future?
if you don't have a limited sustain then Aventurine for sure should be a target
We need a nihility fua debuffer or preservation fua debuffer and Acheron team will be better.
Pela is just better than black swan pela generates the same amount stacks as her or even more with her having low alt cost only if black swan is e1 can I see her being better
agree with your take on Acheron
acheron with bs is the same as pela talking abt stacks lol
Speaking of sustain choice mattering for teams. Have you tried Fu Xuan with Trend of Universal Market vs borisin encounters? Because you want stacks? Boy do we get stacks.
That is by Acheron team. Tho I didn’t use her this moc my team is Fu Xuan, silverwolf, pela, Acheron
@@donnyv4750 It's a thing if facing the robot and full pack. Hoolay doesn't spawn with 4 adds.
The Borisin pack attacks so often it's kinda silly how fast those stacks build/
Didn't they mention already that they're working on a team-based ranking?
Did they? That would be a wonderful play.
Dot don’t give Acheron stack when it procs
Acheron just needs another Jiaoqiu to drop them she'll be back. Feixiao does not gap FF or Acheron as bad as people think AT E0 S0. The glazing gotta stop for that foxian.
firefly is objectively not as good as acheron or feixiao based on average cycles
@zoedotwav26 this is just false 😂
@@WestProZ17i promise u firefly will not fuck u
I like hearing you talk
The real issue imo is basing it on E0S0. Acheron is more effected by not having Sig then theres someone like Jade thats a completely different char at E1. Maybe they need a E1S1 tier list
So if feixiao has a stronger team, why is ff at the top too, shes limited to one team, acheron has more team options than ff.. prydeyn are full of hypocritical idiots.
FF has generally been outcompeting Acheron, but even then it’s actually because prydwen has her in specialist tiers for some reason.
So the performances of the two don’t impact each other’s rating.
@@JohnDoe-si4eg you can't just make up criteria to support one case but not use the same justification for the other character in apex tier. Both ff and feixiqo are in apex tier yet they said feixiao is better due to team . Yet ff only has one team. Ff harmony trailblazer, ruan mei and lingsha . Yet acheron has jiaoqui kafka black swan , Guinaifen, pela. She is more flexible than ff team... so other way, their tier lists make no sense
@@muhammadwaheed1027 The tier lists make no sense only if you glaze Acheron to kingdom come. Acheron’s BiS team is outperformed by FF’s and both fall off hard without their dedicated support. It’s simple as.
I will say zzz is easy too keep up with.
I call lingsha bunny
Bunnybomber
No way im pulling for Fox man
Im glad HuoHuo got the T0 spot she deserved last tier list. I cant wait to sit back & laugh at folks who had chosen to skip HuoHuo when they pull Sunday & realize they need more energy. Tingyun is there for energy, sure, but she isn’t a sustain. Now people are gonna beg for a HuoHuo rerun😏
Bro I was in the discord when this happened n they said HuoHuo probably finna move down soon
@@JohnDoe-si4eg And the craziest part about that is that when HuoHuo initially released, folks were saying “skip, dead patch, filler patch, Fu Xuan is all you need” while also being aware that everyone in the game used energy, Feixiao & Acheron not withstanding. So for someone like me who started in 1.4, this is an absolute win. I don’t know what they are talking about. Nothing in the game provides energy besides certain traces lightcones Tingyun & HuoHuo. As long as HuoHuo can still supply energy, cleanse, & heal, & buff, she’s staying in tier 0.
@@BmanRockhart HuoHuo actually a really good sustainer. Biggest issue is that hoyo doesn’t really have content that makes the difference between sustainers actually matter (like HuoHuo godly cleanse), and so has been leaning into making them subdps units.
Personally she should have been t0 for a lot longer than she was, but now faces stiff competition from Lingsha (she’s actually pretty strong outside of break too, but how nutty she can be outside of it won’t really be clear until 2.7 iykyk).
@@JohnDoe-si4eg Yeah, she’s heals pretty well all things considered. I would argue Apocoliptic Shadow & Pure Fiction are the modes which sustains shine. You don’t need a sustain there, but sustains can be pretty useful, especially for breaking or cleaning up mobs. That is unfortunate for HuoHuo. But honestly, I think it’s fine. She’s practically like a harmony/nihility/Abundance unit in one with all her kit provides. Fu Xuan kinda fits that bill too but only a little bit. Fu Xian’s ult & even basic can deal damage, but it’s not consistent like Aventurine or Lingsha’s.
I agree. I don’t know why they weren’t seeing her insane value beforehand either. Lingsha is insane, & I’m glad I pulled for her on my second account. She’ll be my go to sustain in the event we get characters from Fate Stay Night crossover. Which, I don’t see why we wouldn’t, they’re taking a year to release it after all.
@@BmanRockhart Imo the best thing about HuoHuo’s sustain is that she has the best cleanse in the game, but hoyo’s actually not really that heavy with the debuffs atm. If they were then her and Lingsha are easy top 2 sustains even before we consider all the other value adds they got.
Yeah a lot of people slept on Lingsha. I really do think the community judges characters on vibes and don’t ever actually read what the kits are. The meta in this game is legit pretty easy to follow, but you just gotta read and a lot don’t. HuoHuo as the best 1.X sustain when you don’t need SP positivity should have been obvious the second she dropped. But people just didn’t get it.
Who tf builds Acheron like that if they follow guides?
My guy really went on an inane 20 min rant (regarding Acheron). She is just abysmally worse than Feixiao and Firefly @ E0S0 levels of investment (which is Prydwen's criteria). If anything, more characters should be above her - Boothill and Yunli chief among them. This is all backed up by hard cold data in both CN and Global; it's neither controversial nor shocking if you ask me.
The only argument about this tier list being wrong could be that Feixiao should be in a tier of her own (Tier 0, obviously); then you could downgrade Firefly to 0.5 (along with Boothill and Yunli) and bring Acheron's ass all the way down to Tier 1 along with Ratio (they have remarkedly similar results in recent MoC rotations).
What are you waffling about my dude? Did you just look at the character usage in MoC and call it hard cold data? The last 2 MoCs didn't cater to Acheron at all, so if people had Fei or Firefly those two teams worked much better. The next MoC is Swarog with Trotters, which is definitely on Acheron's slay list, so will that mean that Fei ends up washed up at that point because people would start using Acheron? Based on your hard cold data, it would, wouldn't it?
Your cold-hard data is BS and you know it, if you check damage calculations for 0-cycles, at E0S0 Acheron vs E0S0 Fei, in their best teams, the difference is 300k on the current HP values of the mobs in MoC12 part 1. Both will still do 0-cycle, and both will still do tons of damage if you play them right. Also, Firefly, blows both of them out of the water at the Trio fight, so again, what cold hard data?
Open a spreadsheet, put everything in, buffs, gear, and stats and you will see that the DMG difference is quite smaller than you would expect. Then do the same for Yunli and Ratio and you will see that those two are on a different planet when compared to Acheron. SURE Yunli performs much better into Hoolay vs how Acheron performs in that fight, but that's just one side of the current MoC my dude, and it won't be the same for every MoC 12 from here on.
Prydwen's tier list shouldn't only be for the current MoC, that's what the MoC analytics are there for, but it seems like they are making decisions based on the current MoC line-up/buffs, or I guess, the last two MoCs.
@@EddieBlake215 I skimmed trough your post, but the "hard cold data" is regarding the last three rotations for MoC.
If Acheron is mediocre in all recent rotations (and as such she is incredibly easy to counter) maybe there is something wrong with her kit?
BTW, two of those rotations include Choir Trio which in theory should be good for her... and all rotations have a floor with lightning weakness in 60%+ of elite/boss enemies.
@@AngelOnerom So AFAIK, 2.3 MoC usage saw Acheron at ~64%, 2.4 MoC usage saw Acheron at ~64% again, and 2.5 MoC saw Acheron's usage drop to ~40%. On the CN side of things. So, next MoC when she gets a rotation that she's good at, and will probably move higher with Fei's usage rate dropping, does that mean that she's no longer "mediocre" and we throw Fei into the dumps because her usage will drop? Also, talking about the Choir fight, did you look at the teams that were most used/had the least cycles? Acheron is showing up on that fight at least 3 times in the 1-6 cycles range, BUT Firefly and Rappa are much better at that fight, so... why use Acheron if you have both?
@@EddieBlake215 I never mentioned usage rate. I'm talking strictly about average cycle clears. She is worse than Dr. Ratio, Yunli, Feixiao and Firefly (and on par with Boothill) if you take into account the last 3 rotations (Prydwen's data).
@@AngelOnerombuddy didn’t actually read what you said. Insane. Acheron glazers and literacy. Enemies since ancient times lol.