This is all about the reality of reloading slug's,our's are much more affordable,however accuracy is a lot to be desired! Thank's for another great video! Steve LC!!!...
Love your videos fortune cookie. Your love for shooting is admirable. I too, have spent lots of time and money doing this, was about to start on another costly adventure, until seeing this video. Thanks for posting, good looking out. Think I'm going to scratch the idea and just stick to muzzleloaders for a big load. One interesting story, something you mentioned made me think of this. I once had a hastings barrel w/ scope and a decent amount of sabot slug loads. The first day out at the range I was getting consistent 1"-1.5" groups at 50 yards. Was amazed! Went home, cleaned the gun. Second time out, with the same loads, it shot horrible. Went to the range 3 more times and the gun just shot worse and worse. My only reasoning for this was the plastic from the sabot load, somehow leaded the rifling to the point where it just wouldn't clean out under conventional methods. Thanks for posting. We think the same, think I'll give up on this idea seeing you've tried it before lol.
First, for the forster .69 slugs I would seek a shot cup with shorter petals than those you show. They are out there. I don't like my petals to extend past the top of the slug. My rifled chokes are .730. I have several molds that will cast hollow base .729 slugs. Various weights because sometimes I like to go heavier than SAAMI likes. You can indeed find slug wads that have posts to place inside the slug and also function as an over the powder charge wad. They are out there, you just have to hunt for them. Another option for the full diameter slugs is take a standard shot cup and slice off the petals and use that and just drop your slug on top of the shot cup now missing it's petals. Old school Brenneke slugs used a small metal screw to secure the various wads to the base of the slug. Some reloaders do that too.
To stop the wad crush what about cutting the cushion off the wads and only using the gas seal and the load cup cutting the wad into two parts and using a felt cushion under the cup and slug would this stop the crush and twist of the wad that is causing the point of impact to move around so much ?
I just took a couple factory slugs apart and tried to find materials that are available on the market that closely resemble the way they did it and found that you should just get a gas seal and a fiber wad sit on top of the gas seal, and set slug on top of that, then just roll crimp it. And if you want high velocity you need to use a slower burning powder so it'll push for a longer period of time while the slug rides down the barrel, something like long shot.
amazing video.. 18.5 mossberg and win1200 28 inch imp cly has been killing it at 80 smoothbore. my 12s3 never tears petals or waa12 with lee or .690 but definitly no 2 inch groups.. have with lee at 40 yards. hog hunt all day. thx for another vid.... i missed. love your channel... if more poeple in my fb groups would watch your videos. they would have way less problems. thanks to you i have zero...(-;
I like the 1oz Thug Slug from Ballistic Products. They come with the "built in" wad, 25 for $17. My cost is $0.17.a shell, or $8.26 for 50, vs $2 ea for commercial slugs. I use Fiocchi hulls (I like that I can see inside) and their #209 primers, and 21gr of Witewad. I trim the hull by ¼" and roll crimp. They look awesome, feed flawlessly, and ring steel at 100.
You say: "... 25 for $17. My cost is $0.17.a shell, " $17÷25=$0.68. How do you end up with shells that cost $0.17 each? That's the primary reason I am still not reloading the 1oz BPI's Thug slugs. I feel that BPI charges too much.
saxonforge I wanted to leave just enough petal to keep the slug from bouncing down the barrel. If the slug were bigger, than shooting it bare would be good. But these slugs were designed to be put into petal wads (wads that never were designed to be used with slugs - part of the reason we get hit and miss accuracy with these systems). Best to you...
This answered a lot of questions for me. I've been looking for a mold that makes slugs that look like the factory slugs and haven't found it. So my question is, why hasn't Lee or Lyman made one? I see no reason why they couldn't and off course they would need to sell wads to match it. If it allowed us to achieve factory quality reloads it would be a huge seller! Am I missing something???
CountryBoyPrepper-You have hit upon the mystery in the shooting industry that has not changed in the last 40+ years. If you open up a Remington, Winchester, Fiocchi, etc slug load and look at the slug and wads - you can't buy them because they are not offered. You can't cast them because they aren't offered. Only BPI has slugs and wads designed together to work well - but by the time you buy them, the cost is such that you might as well just buy factory slugs. Lee or Lyman could offer molds and wads that we reloaders could duplicate factory slug power and accuracy with economy, even the sabot slugs, but the best they give us are slugs that may or happen to fit into existing TARGET wads - wads never designed for slugs. We can load factory identical bullets into factory made cases with factory powders in our rifle and pistol loads any day of the week!! Slugs?? - it's really the mystery of the ages. The answer to why Lee or Lyman doesn't and why the big factories don't sell their slugs and wads has to be that they simply will not do this. And you are right, any of that would be a huge seller.. Baffling...Best to ya....
+CountryBoyPrepper -- Not at all - Lee could easily offer the molds and work with wad makers to give us what we want. Instead they give us jerryrigged stuff that has no chance to match factory. it is one of the true mysteries in our shooting sports - should be featured on Shooting USA or other show. Only reason I can think of is the lucrative factory slug ammo market. When they can charge $1-2 each for factory Fosters and $3-5 each for factory fitted sabots, even if shooters only used those to sight in and then hunt with them - that's much dinero. Best to ya, FC
The problem is, factory soft lead Foster slugs are not molded, they are swaged. I'm sure, although I've never seen it they probably cut a pellet of lead and the slug is formed in a press operation. I'm not sure if they were molded you could get them out of the mold with the veins on them? Also if molded they would (Probably) be to hard to swell and fill the bore as factory slugs do thus you'd have poor to no accuracy with them.
I might want to look into engineering some ABS slug wads that would fit the Lee slugs now that I have started to shotshell reload. If I have any luck I might also make them 3D printable.
Alex Eriksson - No one has done that all these years...these slugs were designed to be put into trap wads (designed for 1- 1 1/8 oz shot charges at 1250, not for solid slugs at 1350-1500fps ) No wonder we can't get reliable performance from these. Best to ya, FC Steve
Yep. I've found lots of beat up wads for sure. I've been thinking the same thing about the pressure put on the wads. This is part of why I prefer the stouter federal wad design, and try to keep my velocities close to the shot levels. Perhaps the solution is a custom foster mold with a cylindrical hollow. A Canadian guy (311217 or something lyman mold sounding name like that) posted some videos of old breneke, and the wad was fiber that was actually attached to the slug with a simple wood screw. I am sure we could do better than that with a soft lead slug that would swage to the bore. The mold design for a ring ribbed foster would be as simple as a lee mold to make. In fact, I've been thinking the rings could be cut into a lee mold, if an ambitius guy made a cherry. It looks like the manufacturers of loaded ammo don't have an incentive to sell us the components, but perhaps a company like claybusters or downrange could be persuaded. I have a design for a ring ribbed foster slug with a post on the back of it which could snap into a plastic tail-wad If anyone would make the tail that is. The mold would be as simple as any current mold.
GunFun ZS- That's outstanding - now if you could persuade Lee to make the slug mold and either wad company to make the slug - think of the market there would be. And Lee could make a good inexpensive roll crimper and develop loads for fired roll crimp cases - we'd be in business - I'm thinking the ammo companies would not be happy with that, though, but as in all ammo, there will always be a market for non-reloaders for factory ammo. Best to ya...
Lee will build a mold to spec out of their normal blocks for $90 + the cost of the mold. They assign the design a number. subsequent purchasers who know the number may ask for it. My thought is just to pull the base and driving band dimesnsions off of a commercial foster, and add swage rings to the dimension of the 1 oz slug, and eliminate the drive key feature to balance the additional weight. On another note- I wonder if anyone has made core pin armature to hold Lyman 525's core pin the way Lee's mold does. That would significantly speed up production.
GunFun ZS Thanks for your insights - sounds like stuff we shooters and reloaders have for wish lists…like my 45 ACP lever action rifle - either Henry or Rossi would do…You are asking for a slug mold that will make the Fosters that Win and Rem use only we probably can't cast the "rifle grooves" -- that would be sweet, though - I'd get in line to buy that one...
If you are willing to pay about a hundred to $120, Lee, NEI, and several other companies will make them to order. If you can figure out how to share files, I'll be happy to make a drawing for one of them. Then you can be the guinea pig for it. The fiber wad stack might be more expensive per round though, so it would be good to come up with a cheaper alternative.
I recently started seriously looking into reloading slugs and found an earlier video you posted about matching slug/wad combos to your barrel. You advised to try pushing the combo through the barrel and if it was tight enough to not go or not go easily, to avoid that combo because of the risk of pressure spikes. This brought my loading to an abrupt halt as the slug (Lee 7/8) fit with room to spare but with the wad included, I had to pound it though the barrel. I've been researching and learning more over the last couple weeks and then I ran across this video where you state a factory slug measures 0.730 and is fired down a 0.700 diameter barrel. It seems to me that if I were to try and push this through my barrel I'd have quite a tough time and would likely have to pound it through as well, but it obviously fires no problem and is safe, which leads me to wonder if my slug/wad combo is actually safe to shoot after all since I'm sure the plastic wad is far less troublesome than the lead slug as far as it's ability to yield to the diameter variance. I have played with the idea to cut the petals just below the widest diameter of the slug but that's adding time I'd rather avoid if possible since my time at home is already limited. I'd really like to test fire my slug loads the next time I go home and am feeling more confident in testing them as is but I still can't help but wonder if I'm missing something.
fisoxlt - That .730" is .001" over the cylinder bore dimension of .729" - The .700" in the video was a mis-speak as .700 is actually tighter than improved modified in the realm of a light full choke - such chokes should not be used for shooting slugs. I put an annotation in that video correcting that. Another viewer, JoeHunt, pointed out to me that I probably meant to say .729" and that is the actual case - cylinder bores are what are recommended for slug shooting and that is .729". Sorry for the foul-up on that...I'm going to check that video right away...Yes, the annotation of .729" is there. Best Regards, FC
Makes sense. FWIW, I get good foster slug accuracy with an IC choke tube in a 20" 870 barrel. Better buck patterns too. I agree with sone of the commenters- i can't help but wonder if there is some behind th e scenes collusion between the mould makers and the ammo companies. I like your videos and your exolanations. i binge watched a lot of your casting videos recently. Great stuff. de-mystified a lot
Troy Ortega - Thanks for the gracious remarks...Congrats on getting good slug accuracy - never sell or trade a shotgun that shoots slugs well for you... We can buy the very jacketed bullets the ammo companies use in their factory rounds. But we can't buy their slugs, nor can we cast their slugs...We can buy similar from BPI, but not the exact slugs the factories use...It's like they want to keep their proprietary slugs all to themselves at $1-2+ dollars a shot. We can load our Lee slugs in our trap wads and get good economy shooting for recreation, range and practice though... Best to ya, FC
Have you tried cutting the wad leaves down to about 1/8th of an inch length? This will reduce the drift when exiting the barrel, but still give the protection to the slug or round and not diminish the force of the powder load. Make a cutting jig. Drill a half round into a wood block, then cut a slot for a small blade to be place with a screw or screw block to hold it in place. Insert the wad into place and twist, it should cut each leaf evenly and give you consistency.
Kurt Boulter - Yes on petal cutting - have tried that in varying degrees...but still doesn't match factory slugs for accuracy. Like your idea of a wad cutter, though...sounds like you make your own hull cutters also...Best to ya, FC
I'd be willing to bet that you could somehow fabricate your own wads to mate with a slug, possibly out of simple fiberboard or the like, doing away entirely with the shot wads you've had to settle for. You'd also need full caliber (.729 or larger) slug molds, assuming they're available, and it would definitely help your accuracy if you could get a crimper to do that interesting inner roll crimp used on factory slugs.
Thanks for the reply. Is the wad you are referring to the pink clay buster WAA12F1/SL? We are loading a low brass Winchester AA Hull hopefully for a low recoil accurate shot.
+gsxr419 -- I have not used that wad - it is the Claybuster substitute wad for the Win AA12SL, but I had a bad experience with Claybuster AA12 substitute wads for slug shooting - the Claybuster wad has these flanges inside the petals that prevented the slug from going in. So I have avoided the Claybuster AA12SL wad also for all this time. If it is the SL wad, it should take the 7/8 oz slug unless it has those flanges also... Good reloadin' to ya. FC
so when you say reload do you mean buying 25$ 100 round box of like 8 shot, cut the cap with a shotgun shell trimmer like a mountain storm shotgun trimmer, melting the shot in a pot and casting it into 7/8 or 1oz slugs and loading the key slug back into the shell? I'm about to start this this weekend, only doing this for shotgun practice at 7 - 25 yards. Most ranges where I'm at won't allow birdshot and I never liked shooting the stuff anyways so, natural option. Going to do federal field & target, heard the wadding is 2 piece and is most ideal for like wax slugs, might be good for this.
Hello all everyone What is the best quality of the 12mm gauge tarpaulin are both very fast and describe the target 100% at a distance of 30 meters, 50 meters, 70 meters at the same time and more and strong there is many species?
Since you now have the hourglass pellet mold, perhaps experiment with wads punch pressed from paper/card stock? A greased felt (lambswool?) gas check might be helpful. For rifled barrels, a copper gas check would likely have to be punched, and a tool made to crimp it on the base of the rim.
Lawrence Page - Thanks for your comment and for your thoughts designed to solve an age old problem. Perhaps if the pellet slug were .730" to be .001 over the .729 bores, your wads would work well. But as the slug is .682", it is too loose a fit for accuracy if it is shot bare - it was designed to be inserted into petal wads to fit the bore and the AA12 and DRA 12s seem to do that the best (for me, anyway)...Have a great day...
That blue wad stack looks very much like it comes from a BPI thug slug- from 2,000 miles away I'm about 99% certain. Using the Thugslugs in a 18 1/2 smooth bore Mossberg 590A1 I get better groups than I do with factory foster slugs. And curiously the best patterns come from the low end of the powder weight ladder. Now the problem is it seems I pay about $ 17/25 so I'm not saving money... At 50 yds it is not uncommon for the slug & wad to stay together and I see them in the berm behind the target so it is a effective press fit...
MrStandup2p - Thank you for this very valuable comment - more than you know...The BPI slugs are the closest thing we have to the factory proprietary slug/wad combos for accuracy. I've always said that the BPIs were the way to go except that you get no savings from factory slugs. And if the factory slugs do well for us when we hunt and purpose our ammo, then we should use our factory ammo there. But our own cast slugs are so economical, we can sure use them for all practice, recreation and plinking shooting out to 40-50 yards or so. Our economy is where we really beat the factory ammo, and if they aren't as accurate, that's OK...Best to you.
Great video, does anyone have any thoughts on shooting a Lee round ball through a NEF 20ga with a full choke? The ball dia. is .600 and weighs 324.25 grains. I'm looking for a powder and wad to use with either Rem or Win 2 3/4" shells.
I know with my 16 gauge Ithaca Deerslayer accuracy with factory loads are incredible, I know I can get sub 1-inch groups with the smooth barrel (26 inches) with factory slugs either Remington or Winchester. What I want to know is it possible to load Minie balls (.574-.577 diameter) in a 16 gauge wad instead of trying to find a mold, which is next to impossible?
Bayan1905- Answer is yes, you can, but check the fit of the Minie in your wads - if it's a bit loose, you might want to paper patch the Minie until the wad/slug is a snug push through the barrel with a long wooden dowel. Then load 'em. I don't have any data for you, but Herco or Blue Dot powder should be fine. Best Regards...
Have you ever tried removing the petals from the shotcup wads? You might be able to do that, and maybe use wax or hot glue to mate the wad to the slug. I dunno.
You do know for slugs for 1200 to 1500 fps you need a 1 to 35 over twist in a barrel or choke. Then velocities of 1600 fps to 1800fps a 1 to 30 inch twist in your barrel/choke is needed. Your accuracy problems may be the twist rate of your barrel which rate is it? Some people load to certain velocties with out considering their barrel twist or even the projectile wieghts which is extremly important for your accuracy. Also velocity or even the powder or the wads/ cup you load with is the enemy of accuraccy. Exceed the speed for that twist and it suffers or use the wrong powder and the same hppens. People can and do get 2 inch and under shot groups at 50 meters and some times less but a lot of factors come into play.
bulboo1- I do know that my barrel is the standard Mossberg 1x36" twist, but did not know that other twist rates were available. 1800 with slugs is fair punishing - don't think shooting 83 slug loads like I did the other day would be done with those blasters. Rifling twist was very important when we shot High Power with our ARs - my 1x9" twist shot the 55-63 grainers best, but the 1x7" shot the 69+s. Your info is much appreciated - I am finding that the 1150-1200 range is shooting accurately for me at this time (and very pleasant for range or recreation) - more 50 yard testing to nail that down though...Have a great day
You have only determined me to make/develop a super accurate slug load . if I were you I'd stop using the 500 and go for something like the savage 212 . the 500 wasnt built to be a slug gun
bwspyder1-You definitely have a great point there - As you already infer, the M - 500 was built and designed to be in the vein of the Rem 870 - very versatile shotgun system that can do anything in shotgunning - but not necessarily at the top of efficiencies specifically. With my rig, I'm good to reliable 50 yards with my reloads, 100 with factory sabots. Like most, I just don't like the price tags on factory for general shooting...
The Wad is only there to keep the slug centered in the barrel. The wad under ideal conditions will fall off the slug as soon as the slug and cup leave the barrel. missing petals of the wad is likely because of the air currents, or that your barrel to cup and slug fit is to tight. ideally you want your shotcup and slug to match the barrel at .729". The Lyman has the potential to be the most accurate with a wad that will expand into the base and expand the base of the pellet to the bore size like a Maxi ball for a muzzle loader. A shot cup would need to specially made that is just fiber so that powder charges can be upped to close to factory.
+Izuzan -- You've got it...only problem is that the wads the factories use to do just what you have got - we don't got. What we have are wads designed to shoot shot columns at clay targets at MV 1250fps - not solid slugs at 1500. Factories also use perfectly mated slugs to really tough post wads that stay square to the bore and the slug while the post keeps the slug centered - the slugs often have skirts that ride our cylinder bore (or other not recommended bores) barrels. Not surprising that the factory loads outshoot anything we can reload in both accuracy and power. Maybe some of our reload slugs can shoot OK in 3 shot groups at 50 yards, but consistently? No way. You've got the concepts, but we don't have the components available that will enable the concepts. Good shootin' to ya... FC
+FortuneCookie45LC , what about for the lyman slugs using powdercoat the take up the space at the bottom of the wad. or use your polymer insert in the bottom with a couple 12ga fiber wads under to help the lyman slug expand to the bore. as far as i have read the top of the slug is closer to bore dia than the base. with a coat or 2 of powder coating on the skirt of the slug it could get very close to bore dia. and the fiber wads should allow higher velocities. i have also seen other youtubers using 43grains of bluedot or herco under standard wads and getting 3-4 inch groups at 50 meters with the lyman slugs and a rifled choke.
+Izuzan -- First of all, there are no secrets to our slug reloading - you use a Lee Load All, or a MEC or some of the old Pacific, Lyman or C H shotshell presses from many years ago. Or some use table kits to load shotshells. It is possible to load shotshells without any tools at all. We resize the shell or not, reprime, dump in powder by scoop or scale, seat a wad and slug - fold or roll a crimp. I'ts simpler than loading metallics. Let's put it this way - I was shooting my reload slugs at 50 yards rested and getting 5 - 6" groups, and there was this 50+ year old Bullseye competition guy in the next lane practicing his 50 yard slow fire one handed, of course. The guy was hitting the 10 ring with over half his shots - impressive shooting. We go up to the targets, and I am lamenting that I can't get the 3" groups I want with my reloads. He said "That's not bad for home slugs." Another slug shooter, Dennis, loves to shoot 12 gauge slugs offhand at 50 and 25 yards - he only shoots Fiocchi factory slugs (buys them by the case for best price) and saves me all his empties. He won't shoot reloads as he can't get factory accuracy, and buying by the bulk, he can get his price down to 80 cents a shell. Point is, there may be those out there getting 3-4 inch groups at 50, but are they getting dependable 3-4". If they are, they should never sell those guns as there is magic there. I keep telling everybody that our reload slugs are wonderful as they allow us to shoot reliably out to 35 yards and in for range, recreation and practice at as low a price as 12 cents a shot. And for hunting or purpose, factory ammo is best - Foster or sabot slugs. As for all the jerryrigs we can try (and there is a lot of that going on), safety first, but it is very hard to beat factory - shotgun slugs is the one place that we cannot beat factory ammo. Good shootin' to ya... FC
FortuneCookie45LC, I've only read some of the comments on this video so please forgive me if my additions are just retreading previous questions from others. As you are probably aware, you could have a custom mold maker make you a mold that drops slugs at the desired diameter. Expensive? Yes but may give you the accuracy you desire. Another option is getting the Lee molds opened up by "Leementing" or re-machined. After opening up the mold, old school card wads could be used. I agree that mold manufacturers should provide properly sized slugs. It wouldn't hurt if the ammo companies offered their slug wads for sale too.
MrTaco250 - Simplest would be to send a factory slug (with the little skirt extension at the base to swage to the barrel as the rest of the slug rides the bore) to Lee or Lyman and request a mold that casts that very slug. My take is they won't do it for the reason that if they would do it, they would already have done it. You cannot rig a current mold to work as the Lee slugs are slimmer at the base than the wider front ogive section. If the slug was just casted bigger by mold altering, you still would not get the factory slug - wider at the base to obturate the barrel while the rest of the slug rides the barrel. And then, you'd have to size the slug to round it and get the proper .729" diameter or so. Best Regards
+MrTaco250 -- Aha!! You've been searching for good shooting reload slugs as I have been. Lately, my slug shooting has slowed down - slugs take up lots of my favored powders - I can shoot 3-4 pistol rounds for the powder in one slug load...I like your thinking - if the factories would put out their slug components, they fear loss of sales for their ammo...and that is significant because of all the shotgun seasons and shotgun only areas of hunting... Best to ya, lFC
Pssst.. FC, Most 12ga barrels average .729" which is very close to 18.5mm. Interestingly a full choke averages .040" or 1mm smaller (0.689"), which is most probably why lee round balls measure in at .690, If somebody accidentally shoots them in a full choked shotgun, it will squeeze the shot cup to shreds but should withstand the mass squeezing through the choke without catastrophic failure.. At least a few times! lol Iv often thought about shooting the lee round balls and slugs through a full choke, using a wad with the petals removed and seeing how they perform.. It hasnt happened yet as im a bit chicken to try it! lol :-)
joehunt1980- You are absolutely right. When I shot trap comp, I had all the measurements of my shotgun barrels by heart, and being out of competition for a while, somehow, the .700 stuck in my mind. I have measured all my slug wad combos and they can be pushed through a cylinder bore because they mike at around .732" and my cylinder bore barrels measure .727-.728" I just got that .700 stuck in my mind for some crazy reason. The video would have been fine if I just mentioned the right measurements. Now, I'm going to probably have to see if the thing can be fixed or remake required - it will be my first one. I knew you YTubers don't miss anything. Something did sound odd to me when I said the slug had to be swaged down to .700 from .723-.238 - that would have been a lot of swaging…Thanks for the correction...
FortuneCookie45LC Lol all good brother.. I had to double check my Lyman Shotshell Reloading Handbook to make sure my memory served me right! lol Speaking of that book, have you ever tried their Foster style slugs that is used without a plastic wad? I wonder if they can be used in a rifled shotgun barrel.. :-)
joehunt1980 When I didn't have my rifled barrel all those years (expensive barrel + the Lyman mold would pay for another whole shotgun - reason I kept waiting on doing that), I was always intrigued by the pellet slug - the Lyman Fosters just seemed like the Lees and I wasn't in favor of going back to the filler / overpowder wad columns - like a technological step backwards…like a lot of slug reloaders, we wanted to will the Lee slugs to success - still wanting that after 35 years thinking there's got to be something to get that accuracy. Now you've got me thinking about the possibilities with my Mossy rifled barrel and the "other" Lyman slug…Again, I'm a thankin' ya fer pickin' up my gaffe.
Man I put a few thug slugs over some red dot 1475 fps..gun laying on a closed gate 2 inches at 50 exact yards...smooth bore 500, believe it or not dont care, I still have the target in my "room"
+martK banjoboy - Unfortunately, the Lyman foster slug drops at .705" Designed to be shot through cylinder bores (.729 - .730"), that can only work well in shot cups having the thinner petals. Of course, you might find that your gun shoots them well without the cup wads. Good shootin' to ya... FC
I've heard of some guys using bare (no shot cup) .735" cast round balls. Some have reported 1500+ fps and 2" groups at 50 yards with rifled choke tubes. Best results seem to be with longshot or bluedot powders, plastic gas seals, and fiber wads. There's a couple threads on castboolits about it.
+Harbingerofd00m -- As you know, I've shot the .690 RBs through shotcups, and now that I have Longshot powder, I need to revisit with that - all my slug shooting in the past has been done with RD, Unique, and Blue Dot (and there hasn't been any of those three powders for over 3 years). My preference for shotgun slugs is to be able to push the wad/slug through the barrel snugly with a long wood dowel - then I load 'em. The reason I avoided that slug in my shotgun barrels is that the round ball is too big to push through, so the pressures would be higher. That slug would weigh close to 1 1/4 oz and at 1500fps, that would be a true magnum slug. I'd prefer a slug .001 - .002" bigger than groove diameter or bore diameter = .729" rifled; .730" for smooth. .735" is a little too big, but I can see how that might work very well in rifled barrels...Something to consider again - Thanks for the tip... FC
FortuneCookie45LC You're welcome! I believe the guy who got the .735 up to 1500 was using a lathe-turned brass case, too. The RB weighs somewhere around 1-5/16 oz using pure lead, but most of the loads I've heard use 1-3/8 oz or even 1-1/2 oz load data to keep the pressures safe. Only the truly adventurous go up to 1500 like that one person. Hope this was helpful!
what I do is use herco powder won't say the charge then use a over powder card and then a black powder cushion wad then Roll crimp it in and I've gotten super tight groups using this method through a rifled barrel
donald plank - That is the traditional slug loads, and if the slug fits your rifled bore well, that accuracy you are getting is enabled. You do not want to let that barrel get away from you as it will stand up against the gates of hell...with a bit of help, of course... Have a great day, FC
The way the wad and preassures are applied to the slug, say..12s4 vs that thug slug wad, the way it pushes it is like front wheel drive vs rear, front is a lot harder to screw up basically pulling from the front and having a tail, vs regular wad flexing and doin all sorts of funny off stuff
what if you cut the pedals off of the wads on the home-made rounds and use a couple of drops of superglue to stick the wad to the slug? Might help your accuracy dilemma.
DeanMk1 - Cutting petals off to keep them from being stripped off with loss of accuracy has long been tried - works and doesn't work. If the Superglue worked holding the petals to the slug, they would not have had to be cut off in the first place. And if the petals stripped off from inadequate fit of the wad slug to the barrel, then Superglue would not keep the glued on petals from holding under the friction of shell and barrel either. If the wad and slug combo fits the barrel properly, the assembly will go through the barrel nicely and stay centered, then the wad drops off after barrel exit... Best to ya, FC
FC, you misread my suggestion, but maybe I didn't put enough information in my suggestion, so please allow me to try this again...Cut the pedals off first and discard them. Then glue the slug to the REMAINING PORTION of the wad (that being the lower half of the wad). Basically, I'm suggesting a poor man's version of a Brenneke-type arrangement.
DeanMk1 - There are two basic kind of slugs that we have 1) the slugs that are designed to be bore fit with skirts on the slugs that are barrel contact or use some kind of polymer rider like the European steel slugs. 2) Slugs that are in shot sleeves or shot cups. When you inspect factory slugs, you see post wads that are mated to hollow bases on the slugs. Plus you will see very strong compression zones on the wads to keep the slugs centered. Allows factory slugs to shoot to max power and accuracy. We don't have those components available to home casters or reloaders. The best we have are jerryrigged wads that were designed to shoot 1200 fps target shot charges, not 1 1/8 oz slugs at 1500 fps or so. I have full videos on the factory slugs dissected etc...Your idea is a good one, but will not compare to the post wads that are proprietary for the slugs. You should give it a try - if it holds together, might work fine... Best to ya, FC
I see what you're saying, and it definitely has merit, but from your video, it appears you only have available to you what we see. Sure, the wad might not be as stout as a dedicated slug wad, but its better than nothing. As for the slug itself, I was referring to the 7/8 oz. and 1 oz. Lee slugs you show in the video. Your dilemma seems to be these are lacking in accuracy, thus my suggestion for the wad. But hey, it was just a suggestion. You're the one doing the experiments and making the videos, give it a shot....or not. Just tryin' to help. Good luck. =)
DeanMk1 - My slug shooting has been curtailed by powder availability. Note I can shoot 3 or 4 pistol rounds for every shotgun slug I load. Now that powders are coming back, time to start doing the slugs again...But they've got to take their turn in the cue of video subjects...Got a lot of projects to finish up before the slugs pop up again... Thanks for the suggestion...Might work better if the slug we use was bigger to be more of a fit to the barrel...the Lee 1 oz, 7/8 and the Lyman 525 are all small slugs designed to be slipped into target wads. And we aren't supposed to shoot slugs through choked barrels regardless... Best to ya FC
Hiya FC45LC, what would you suggest would be a good wad for a fiochhi new hull and a slug either round ball or cut down conical from lee, 20 ga is my chosen gun
Robbie Fortner - The Federal 20S1 would be a good start - it was designed for straight wall hulls like the Fiocchi. If your slugs are a loose fit, you can add some fiberfill under and around the slug to tighten up the fit. If too tight and you can't push the wad/slug through the cylinder or IC barrel, the slug is too big. If the slug is.615", you'll have to shoot it bare by either cutting the petals off the 20S1 or going with 20 gauge overpowder and filler wads with your bare slug. Good shootin' to ya
Yes, this is a sad state of affairs. But why do we put up with it? Molds are not that tough to make nor expensive to buy. I am seriously thinking of machining some grooves into an inexpensive Lee Drive Key mold to create two bands on the slugs that will engage with a rifled barrel or choke tube. Then one could use a trap wad with the petals removed, and carefully start working loads until you get up to factory performance. Any reason why doing this would be a problem???
vetterobert - You certainly can do all that, and you have safety built into your efforts. However, you still won't wind up with anything akin to factory proprietary slug wad combos that were made for each other. If you mod a mold and mod the wads, you still have wads and slugs that were never designed to be used together. Not only are factory slugs and wads designed to go together, but also to work in the majority of shotgun barrels to work best together. It's a conspiracy against slug shooters. Have a great day, FC
+TheUSAforever1 -- or if Lee had worked with a wad maker to make wads mated to their slugs - How easy would that have been? And the wad maker would know that for every Lee slug mold sold, there was going to be ongoing sales of their wads for as long as the patents held out. Lyman could have done the same with their Fosters - post wads and columns all set for the various hulls out there - shooters would have bought these wads 6 bags at a time for each of their hull options. All the guesswork would be taken out of it... Cast the Lee 1 oz slug and buy the Claybuster 1oz Lee Slug wad for Win AA hulls loaded with Lee data - all tested and done. Problem would be that the ammo companies sales of their $1 a shot Fosters and $3-$5 a shot sabots would drop by 60%. Wouldn't surprise me if the ammo companies contracted with Lee and Lyman to never do just what is mentioned above with a gag order in the contract. Happy Holidays to ya, FC
buy a box of 1oz birdshot .cut the shell at the end ,pull the shot and wad .replace it with a fiber wad and 2 shotcards, place your slug on top and do a bead roll.run the full bore slug youll be amazed .get rid of the fucking shotcup.
It is a shame all the things we can not buy in the U.S.A. The only slugs on the market for reloaders that I know of are the ones Ballistic Products offers and they are fine slugs but as you said by the time you get them loaded you may as well buy factory made slugs. If someone sold a soft lead rifled slug that is full bore and we could use fiber wads with ( At a reasonable price), it would be a top seller. I bought a Lee .690 round ball mold and worked up a good thunder ball load for it for my plinking slugs. With a Large charge of Longshot powder they are a lot of fun and plenty accurate out to fifty yards or so in a smooth bore. VERY cheap to produce too. MUCH more effective than buckshot for sure.
I have good luck with Ballistic Products Brush wad. It's a double ended wad and a .69 cal ball fits into it very well. I get good accuracy with them and longshot powder.
ditchdigger93 - Thanks for the tip - I think I know the wad you are talking about...next order from BPI, will have to get some of those... Best to ya, FC
Thanks for posting is it safe to use slugs in a H&R single shot modifed choke rifle?i have been told i can but its unrifled? Single bird shot i use at skeet?
Most factory slugs say they are safe to use through up to full choke. Full choke is tighter than modified. Read the packaging on the specific slugs you intend to shoot. Most Foster or Breneke type commercial slugs will be OK. For home made slugs, you need to check first and make sure the slug and wad will fit through the barrel. FC45LC did a video on how this works a while back, so look through his archive on shotgun reloading for it. Avoid solid slugs like roundballs, sabots, and anything similar to Rem Copper Solid.
Hey. I tried to reply yesterday, but YT was being wierd. I have an NEF/ H&R Pardner 12 in fixed Full Choke. I've safely fired Remington 3" mag slugs, Winchester ditto, and also B&P softies. I didn't get any looney toons banana peel action on the barrell, and that is a tighter choke than yours. I can suggest getting a good recoil pad though- That's a light little gun, and you will feel the slugs a lot more than your gun will. My favorite is to get a used KickEez pad from the bin at a gunsmith or ebay and fit it to the gun. They are the best and they don't get hard with age.
FortuneCookie, Have you tested your O.D= 0.686" Lee slug thru a full-choke barrel. My Remington 870's full choke tube I.D= 0.686" . Remember what they say " Barrel diameter vs. slug diameter is a major factor in accuracy". An improved cylinder is 0.715" (at least my Remington IC- tube is) , chances are Lee slug is wobbling thru that choke. You may already have done such test , if so , I would like to hear about your test results ( accuracy with full choke). Thanks,
Wolfboro Two - Lots of problems here - firstly we are not supposed to shoot any of our slugs reloaded or factory thru our FC barrels. (Now the manufacturers know that this is done either accidentally or on purpose a lot so they have made their bare slugs so that they will pass thru FCs without blowing the barrels up - their slugs are designed to shoot best through cylinder or IC bores only) Our reload slugs would have to be shot bare through FC barrels as if shot in wad cups, all the petals would strip and pressures would spike perhaps disastrously. Now if shot bare, our reload slugs (designed to be shot in wad cups that don't work well with them) would first bounce around inside the barrel and then squeeze through the choke - accuracy is not helped by that. And the loaded rounds with the bare reloaded slugs would bounce around inside the shell a bit even before firing. Factory Foster slugs are mounted on post wads used to keep the slugs centered in barrels greatly helping their accuracy - we have no wads like that available for our cast slugs and the factory Foster slugs we can neither make or buy - This disparity of reloading slugs vs factory does not exist for any other type of reloading we do - a mystery... Best to ya
FortuneCookie45LC I think I will conduct that full choke test sometime in near future and keep you posted. Brenneke slug O.D= 0.729" , Brenneke Wad OD=0.747" ( as per Guns&Ammo article written by Kevin Steele) and this is being fired thru IC ( 0.715") .
Wolfboro Two I've been shooting Lee slugs for 35 years, trying to find the magic formula for accuracy without real success. Just when you think you've got a good load, the next batch gives you what I call, the 3rd shot flyer. It's because even though the Lee slugs were designed to be put into common shotcups, the wads were never designed to be used with slugs. And shotgun barrels vary across the board - it's hard to find chokes that are the same. You will hear of some reports of 2" groups at 50 yards with Lee slugs, or 3" groups at 100 yards. When I hear of such, I know that 1) they have the rare magic barrel /slug /wad/load combination working for them or 2) they have the statistical good group but don't shoot or report subsequent consistent success. Factory Foster and sabot slugs shoot well for power and accuracy for the reasons we have already discussed. Why Lee won't put out a mold to cast those hourglass shaped sub caliber sabot slugs and then sell us the plastic wads to mate with them for our rifled barrels is a mystery. And why Lee won't let us cast Fosters with the enlarged ring at the base to engage barrels so we can shoot them bare with a custom post wad (from Lee of course), is also beyond me. Unless we can cast our slugs ourself, we will not be able to achieve the economy we also highly desire. Best Regards
FortuneCookie45LC I can see your frustration with poor accuracy, but also with the lack of availability of good components in the market to improve slug accuracy .I can only speculate that some under-the-table deals not to interfere with each other's business territory. Lee is a toolmaker for reloading dies , if it steps on the toes of (Federal, Remington, Winchester and Brenneke,BRI ,etc.) I can imagine the repercussion . Also, I did not check with US Patent Dept. website , there may be patents on certain slug and wad designs that may limit other companies to duplicate . ( my speculation ). My bottom-line is the same as yours. We can cast shotgun slugs rather cheaply and enjoy plinking up to 50 yards . I call it a win-win scenario , even if home made slug does not have the hunting accuracy. Another thing that drew my attention. There is not a single "scientific statement" in the Lee brochure supplied with the slug-mold. Statements are like " The drive key assures positive rotation of the slug in rifled barrels" or , " Mediocre loads were transformed into spectacular loads by simply changing the wad ". I would expect them to provide some scientific data ( shooting and test conditions, type of barrel, wad wall-thickness, diameter of the wad's bottom-cup , accuracy grouping obtained at various distances,etc.) . I think it is a shame . By the way , I saw some sabot rounds used in "Muzzleloaders" . They have the same kind of soft flimsy plastic shut-cups resembling a shotgun sabot round. It is known that muzzleloaders accuracy is better than shotgun in general . This is interesting to me . I understand that you have already done extensive work on shotgun wad/gunpowder combinations in your search for accuracy. Thanks,
Finally I found some time to conduct a test shooting with my own cast slugs thru various barrels . I used 4 different barrels (all are 20" deer barrels in 12 gauge , smooth bbl . ID=0.712" (@muzzle), Fully Rifled bbl ID=0.0.720" , Rifled Choke ID=0.715" , Modified Choke ID=.705") . All test shooting done with a 4X scope, from a bench rest ,target at 50 yards ,adhering basic shooting principles (breathe-relax-aim-take up trigger slack-squeeze ) . Barrels were attached to receiver with a magazine extention clamp and tightened with tool for a solid barrel fix. Here are 4 shot averages ; 1-Rifled Choke : 4 .75 in. 2-Smooth bbl : 6.5 in. 3-Fully Rifled bbl. : 7 in. 4-Modified Choke : 7.75 in. (Accuracy of MOD choke did not give me any incentive to try FULL choke , so I skipped it ). Bottom Line : The accuracy is totally unacceptable . Next time around I will include some "factory ammo" for better comparison . But first , I have to come up with some idea (s) to improve my slug handloading . At the end of the day "Brenneke" will be my choice for hunting , so handloading is just fun work . Shoot safely ,
+gsxr419 -- Thanks for the good question... the lee 7/8 fits into the WinAA12SL wad well for AA hulls and the Federal 12S0 for the straight wall two piece hulls well. The WinAA12 can also be used, but the petals are a little on the long side. Good reloadin' to ya, FC
Seriously guys are we supposed to be trying to make slugs hit a 2-in Target at over 50 yards? If I have to knock something down dead at 50 yards or further, I'm pulling out my AR-10 in 45 Raptor or in 308! I was taught that the shotgun was a close range weapon.
+MCKwilly -- Shotgun barrels and individual choke tubes are all individual with character of their own. Therefore, no one's opinion based on their own shooting can be gospel. However, smoothbore shotgun barrels can be amazingly accurate, especially with factory foster type slugs - my iron sight H & K shoots factory Win 1 oz into 2-4" 3 shot groups at 100 yards. And I would not hesitate to take on hunting situations at 50 yards with field position shooting with my Benelli smoothbore Nova with factory Fosters. We can surprise ourselves at distance shooting with just beads. Reload slugs are another story - best accuracy I've found with home cast reload slugs is 4-6" groups at 50 yards. So reloads are good for 50-60 yards at most, factory Fosters to 100 yards - but you have to test for yourself. You might be the lucky owner of a "magic" shotgun barrel. Factory sabot slugs usually shoot poorly from smooth barrels. Now the idea of rifled choke tubes is to give smoothbore owners the option of shooting factory sabot slug ammo. You would have to test various sabot slugs to see if the accuracy you get is acceptable for hunting. It's like finding the 22 LR ammo that a particular rimfire gun likes - once you find it - you stock up or load up a storm. No shooter I know plinks with factory sabot ammo. But many do with reload slugs. I can load 8 - 10 reload slugs for cost of 1 factory round. If you have the extra money to spend for a rifled barrel, that will give you more consistent performance overall with factory sabots. You could shoot Fosters through a rifled barrel, but I've haven't found any definite reliable improvement in accuracy that way. Plus, you can't shoot buckshot or any shot charges through the rifled barrel unless the range is really short. Good shootin' to ya, FC
+FortuneCookie45LC I got my son the rifled barrel, and was hoping to work up a good Lee 1oz load for it, thank you for your input your vids are very informative and fun, I also used unique starting weight with 240 gr JHP for 45 Colt out of my buddies Puma lever gun, they acted like they barely got out of the barrel, thank you for your time
+MCKwilly -- Congrats on getting that rifled barrel for your son. In the future, he will often remember your kindness in giving that to him. Unique is one of the most versatile powders we have. Starting charges of Unique are really pipsqueaks in pistol caliber rifles. But nothing wrong with starting there, reloaders can always adjust their powder charges as safe and necessary. Good shootin' to ya, FC
FortuneCookie45LC Thanks for the mention. I have been falling behind on my watch later video list, so I'm late to the game. I wonder if you can use a modified hybrid shot cup around your 525 lyman slug, and a fiber wad below, after you trim off the collapsible plastic base part? Just a thought. I have never done shotgun reloads, but thinking outside the box here.
Jon-after seeing what happens when we seat our 1 piece wads (random distortion of the obturation part) explains flyers and inconsistent burns - perhaps going with separate and SURE seating of overpowder cup, then filler wad (s) - but it would help if Lyman made their slugs mike at .729" - we would be heading towards factory bare slug specs…or get Lee to bore out their 1 oz molds !! Going the way you suggest - we'd get Lyman pellet to drop at - say 58 cal. and then get Downrange or Claybuster to make a sabot (that looks like 1. the original forked flashhiders on AR-15 rifles or 2. fitted complete cover split sabot) to fit that with the outside at .729" - we'd be in business…Best Regards
FortuneCookie45LC not sure you can get Lee to increase diameter, I remember seeing a blog or video, where someone used a cast bullet, a power drill, and lapping compound to increase mold diameter in a Lee mold. I see that as a last resort. I see that a cast slug closer to bore diameter would help a lot. Good luck, and keep us informed of your progress.
Nathan Mullins - No need since we have the plastic cup wads...but if not, in a pinch, we certainly could use any kind of patching like in the early days of firearms. The obturator gas seal would still be a good idea though. Would require careful testing starting low on powder and working up for safety. Personally, I wouldn't do it. Best to ya, FC Steve
TheNisgaa-Always a good idea. But these modern 12 gauge smoothbores even single shots, would have tripled the casualties in the Civil War. Good thing the battles were fought with muzzleloaders - if there could be a good thing there…Best Regards to ya...
TZINO C Thanks for your comment. If we could 3D print cast slugs and cast bullets, that would sure beat using our hot cast iron and bottom draw pots...Didn't know they could print with lead, though... that would have to be expensive... Best to ya...
I don t speak about the ptojectile l speak about the prefferable shape of the wad good idea tjough about the lead.for the wad it can be done quite cheap
TZINO C Very interesting - we can make the wads that they don't sell us...way to go TZINO C. But now we'll have to get the lead slug that is mated to the wad - the slug and the wad has to go together for best performance. So far, we can't buy those slugs, neither can we cast them ourselves. Have a great day
You can adjust by specific and detailed measurements a wad made to go the distance together with the 1 ounch lee slug l may me able to be made one that would fit and stay there to the two chambers of the slug, the foster or the rifled slugs or palla as we say here have one chamber and the wad stuck in it.why not make a wad that can stuck in the lee slug?give it as a project to a college boy that has access to a 3d printer who knows may work out and for free:-)
TZINO C By golly, by gosh, by gar - college student wad project - I do like your thinking. Lee should have made those wads available many years ago - calculate all the wad sales they could have made - an accurate shooting economical home made slug. (But then every factory slug that would not have been purchased would have made the ammo companies very upset - there may have been deals made that we don't know about). For that matter, the door is still open for someone to make that wad - if it works well, it could be mass produced and marketed (there's a big demand out there) - then a big ammo company might come and buy your company for big bucks. Have a great day
It isn't possible to get cast slugs to shoot 1-3" groups at 100 yards. I've got 6-7 loads right now that does it. Still playing around with Lee key drives. I got a Facebook page with pics and load recipes. You can find them there. facebook.com/groups/213522172431808/
Lyman slug win waa12f14 wad 4mm card under slug 21 to 28gr win super field gives me 2 to 3 inch groups at 50 yards use 21 gr for ipsc and 28 gr8 for hunting in a vepr 12 cyl bore owder
I was able to get 2" group at 50 yds. with a Mossberg 20 ga. rifled barrel. I used Remington hulls - RXP 20 wad (petals removed ) - one 1/4 cards - .600 round ball - 29 gn. Blue dot. I was copying Remington rifled slug which has no wadding. The problem I had was the round ball size .595 and would roll through the barrel. ( not good ) I was able to push the RXP 20 wad and the round ball through barrel with ease, but that still wasn't good either. So I checked different thickness and discovered that a 1-1/4" lubed cotton patch .010 thick gave me the best resistance. I made 5 load groups starting at 27 gn. with 5" group and stopped at 29. gn. because I didn't have enough hulls for reloading anymore. Maybe that will work for you ?
+moiecol I'm new to shotgun loading, but is ballistic coefficient a factor at all? Because a 20ga is likely higher BC compared to 12ga - and thus might fly flatter/faster - just a random thought
+moiecol --The patch is a great idea - I used to tell shooters who didn't like the rattle of a loose slug in the wads to put in some fiberfill - your patch idea might go one better in terms of providing better accuracy to boot...well done!! Thanks for posting this - now I've got to go back and see which combos are loose enough in barrel push to allow me to patch... FC
If the wads are the main cause for poor accuracy someone should start to make better wads because there's a market for them. If that doesn't happen maybe people should start experimenting with improvised wads. Maybe a ball of cheap sheep wool will work better than an actual wad.
Prepare2Survive-Shooters have been improvising shotshells for the last 200 years. Recall even an episode of The Big Valley, when James Whitmore, playing a bad guy, shot people with shotgun loaded with pebbles because it "lowered his overhead". Cut shotshells and wax slugs came out of experimentation as well. Don't know about your sheep wool though...
I'm glad I watched this video I was thinking about making my own foster slugs but I can't find any on the Internet now I know why
This is all about the reality of reloading slug's,our's are much more affordable,however accuracy is a lot to be desired! Thank's for another great video! Steve LC!!!...
Fantastic analysis on slugs. Keep it up.
Curious if you use a rifled barrel ? I purchased a Savage 220. Maybe time for an update ? This is also a WONDERFUL video.
Love your videos fortune cookie. Your love for shooting is admirable. I too, have spent lots of time and money doing this, was about to start on another costly adventure, until seeing this video. Thanks for posting, good looking out. Think I'm going to scratch the idea and just stick to muzzleloaders for a big load.
One interesting story, something you mentioned made me think of this. I once had a hastings barrel w/ scope and a decent amount of sabot slug loads. The first day out at the range I was getting consistent 1"-1.5" groups at 50 yards. Was amazed! Went home, cleaned the gun. Second time out, with the same loads, it shot horrible. Went to the range 3 more times and the gun just shot worse and worse. My only reasoning for this was the plastic from the sabot load, somehow leaded the rifling to the point where it just wouldn't clean out under conventional methods.
Thanks for posting. We think the same, think I'll give up on this idea seeing you've tried it before lol.
FortuneCookie your channel is the best presented resource for reloaders, period. Love your videos, man, keep em comin!
+Sphyrnidae1 -- Mighty kind of you to comment like this - much appreciated... Have a great day, FC
+ArthurVaquero -- You guys are the salt of the earth...if everyone had positive pursuits and attitudes, what a wonderful world this would be...FC
First, for the forster .69 slugs I would seek a shot cup with shorter petals than those you show. They are out there. I don't like my petals to extend past the top of the slug. My rifled chokes are .730. I have several molds that will cast hollow base .729 slugs. Various weights because sometimes I like to go heavier than SAAMI likes. You can indeed find slug wads that have posts to place inside the slug and also function as an over the powder charge wad. They are out there, you just have to hunt for them. Another option for the full diameter slugs is take a standard shot cup and slice off the petals and use that and just drop your slug on top of the shot cup now missing it's petals. Old school Brenneke slugs used a small metal screw to secure the various wads to the base of the slug. Some reloaders do that too.
To stop the wad crush what about cutting the cushion off the wads and only using the gas seal and the load cup cutting the wad into two parts and using a felt cushion under the cup and slug would this stop the crush and twist of the wad that is causing the point of impact to move around so much ?
I hate getting the bejabbers kicked out of me! Great video as always FC!
+hagenoft -- I'm with you. I'd like to keep my bejabbers if you don't mind....Best Regards, FC
What about putting an over powder card & a wool or felt cushion wad under the plastic wad coupled with a slower burning powder?
Get rid of the shot cup all together. Shoot the full bore slug .use just a felt wad and two cards .run a bead crimp .you want lead on steel .
I my new to your vid but dang they are informative thanks.
hancock brewer - Thank you for the good word...
I just took a couple factory slugs apart and tried to find materials that are available on the market that closely resemble the way they did it and found that you should just get a gas seal and a fiber wad sit on top of the gas seal, and set slug on top of that, then just roll crimp it.
And if you want high velocity you need to use a slower burning powder so it'll push for a longer period of time while the slug rides down the barrel, something like long shot.
would a .501 diameter bullet be big enough for 12 gauge slugs or not
amazing video.. 18.5 mossberg and win1200 28 inch imp cly has been killing it at 80 smoothbore. my 12s3 never tears petals or waa12 with lee or .690 but definitly no 2 inch groups.. have with lee at 40 yards. hog hunt all day. thx for another vid.... i missed. love your channel... if more poeple in my fb groups would watch your videos. they would have way less problems. thanks to you i have zero...(-;
I like the 1oz Thug Slug from Ballistic Products. They come with the "built in" wad, 25 for $17. My cost is $0.17.a shell, or $8.26 for 50, vs $2 ea for commercial slugs.
I use Fiocchi hulls (I like that I can see inside) and their #209 primers, and 21gr of Witewad. I trim the hull by ¼" and roll crimp. They look awesome, feed flawlessly, and ring steel at 100.
You say: "... 25 for $17. My cost is $0.17.a shell, "
$17÷25=$0.68. How do you end up with shells that cost $0.17 each? That's the primary reason I am still not reloading the 1oz BPI's Thug slugs. I feel that BPI charges too much.
Have you ever tried cutting the pedals of the wad very low and just leaving the base and a small cup for the slug?
saxonforge I wanted to leave just enough petal to keep the slug from bouncing down the barrel. If the slug were bigger, than shooting it bare would be good. But these slugs were designed to be put into petal wads (wads that never were designed to be used with slugs - part of the reason we get hit and miss accuracy with these systems). Best to you...
The bore diameters seem off. SAAMI spec for 12 gauge is .725 to .745. Cylinder choke would be same diameter as bore.
Super informative as usual.
This answered a lot of questions for me. I've been looking for a mold that makes slugs that look like the factory slugs and haven't found it. So my question is, why hasn't Lee or Lyman made one? I see no reason why they couldn't and off course they would need to sell wads to match it. If it allowed us to achieve factory quality reloads it would be a huge seller! Am I missing something???
CountryBoyPrepper-You have hit upon the mystery in the shooting industry that has not changed in the last 40+ years. If you open up a Remington, Winchester, Fiocchi, etc slug load and look at the slug and wads - you can't buy them because they are not offered. You can't cast them because they aren't offered. Only BPI has slugs and wads designed together to work well - but by the time you buy them, the cost is such that you might as well just buy factory slugs. Lee or Lyman could offer molds and wads that we reloaders could duplicate factory slug power and accuracy with economy, even the sabot slugs, but the best they give us are slugs that may or happen to fit into existing TARGET wads - wads never designed for slugs. We can load factory identical bullets into factory made cases with factory powders in our rifle and pistol loads any day of the week!! Slugs?? - it's really the mystery of the ages. The answer to why Lee or Lyman doesn't and why the big factories don't sell their slugs and wads has to be that they simply will not do this. And you are right, any of that would be a huge seller.. Baffling...Best to ya....
+CountryBoyPrepper -- Not at all - Lee could easily offer the molds and work with wad makers to give us what we want. Instead they give us jerryrigged stuff that has no chance to match factory. it is one of the true mysteries in our shooting sports - should be featured on Shooting USA or other show. Only reason I can think of is the lucrative factory slug ammo market. When they can charge $1-2 each for factory Fosters and $3-5 each for factory fitted sabots, even if shooters only used those to sight in and then hunt with them - that's much dinero. Best to ya, FC
The problem is, factory soft lead Foster slugs are not molded, they are swaged. I'm sure, although I've never seen it they probably cut a pellet of lead and the slug is formed in a press operation. I'm not sure if they were molded you could get them out of the mold with the veins on them? Also if molded they would (Probably) be to hard to swell and fill the bore as factory slugs do thus you'd have poor to no accuracy with them.
I might want to look into engineering some ABS slug wads that would fit the Lee slugs now that I have started to shotshell reload. If I have any luck I might also make them 3D printable.
Alex Eriksson - No one has done that all these years...these slugs were designed to be put into trap wads (designed for 1- 1 1/8 oz shot charges at 1250, not for solid slugs at 1350-1500fps ) No wonder we can't get reliable performance from these. Best to ya, FC Steve
Yep. I've found lots of beat up wads for sure. I've been thinking the same thing about the pressure put on the wads. This is part of why I prefer the stouter federal wad design, and try to keep my velocities close to the shot levels.
Perhaps the solution is a custom foster mold with a cylindrical hollow. A Canadian guy (311217 or something lyman mold sounding name like that) posted some videos of old breneke, and the wad was fiber that was actually attached to the slug with a simple wood screw. I am sure we could do better than that with a soft lead slug that would swage to the bore. The mold design for a ring ribbed foster would be as simple as a lee mold to make. In fact, I've been thinking the rings could be cut into a lee mold, if an ambitius guy made a cherry.
It looks like the manufacturers of loaded ammo don't have an incentive to sell us the components, but perhaps a company like claybusters or downrange could be persuaded. I have a design for a ring ribbed foster slug with a post on the back of it which could snap into a plastic tail-wad If anyone would make the tail that is. The mold would be as simple as any current mold.
GunFun ZS- That's outstanding - now if you could persuade Lee to make the slug mold and either wad company to make the slug - think of the market there would be. And Lee could make a good inexpensive roll crimper and develop loads for fired roll crimp cases - we'd be in business - I'm thinking the ammo companies would not be happy with that, though, but as in all ammo, there will always be a market for non-reloaders for factory ammo. Best to ya...
joehunt1980
Which it does... That has got to be the only good thing to come from the new Google style layout! lol
Lee will build a mold to spec out of their normal blocks for $90 + the cost of the mold. They assign the design a number. subsequent purchasers who know the number may ask for it. My thought is just to pull the base and driving band dimesnsions off of a commercial foster, and add swage rings to the dimension of the 1 oz slug, and eliminate the drive key feature to balance the additional weight.
On another note- I wonder if anyone has made core pin armature to hold Lyman 525's core pin the way Lee's mold does. That would significantly speed up production.
GunFun ZS Thanks for your insights - sounds like stuff we shooters and reloaders have for wish lists…like my 45 ACP lever action rifle - either Henry or Rossi would do…You are asking for a slug mold that will make the Fosters that Win and Rem use only we probably can't cast the "rifle grooves" -- that would be sweet, though - I'd get in line to buy that one...
If you are willing to pay about a hundred to $120, Lee, NEI, and several other companies will make them to order. If you can figure out how to share files, I'll be happy to make a drawing for one of them. Then you can be the guinea pig for it. The fiber wad stack might be more expensive per round though, so it would be good to come up with a cheaper alternative.
I recently started seriously looking into reloading slugs and found an earlier video you posted about matching slug/wad combos to your barrel. You advised to try pushing the combo through the barrel and if it was tight enough to not go or not go easily, to avoid that combo because of the risk of pressure spikes. This brought my loading to an abrupt halt as the slug (Lee 7/8) fit with room to spare but with the wad included, I had to pound it though the barrel. I've been researching and learning more over the last couple weeks and then I ran across this video where you state a factory slug measures 0.730 and is fired down a 0.700 diameter barrel. It seems to me that if I were to try and push this through my barrel I'd have quite a tough time and would likely have to pound it through as well, but it obviously fires no problem and is safe, which leads me to wonder if my slug/wad combo is actually safe to shoot after all since I'm sure the plastic wad is far less troublesome than the lead slug as far as it's ability to yield to the diameter variance. I have played with the idea to cut the petals just below the widest diameter of the slug but that's adding time I'd rather avoid if possible since my time at home is already limited. I'd really like to test fire my slug loads the next time I go home and am feeling more confident in testing them as is but I still can't help but wonder if I'm missing something.
fisoxlt - That .730" is .001" over the cylinder bore dimension of .729" - The .700" in the video was a mis-speak as .700 is actually tighter than improved modified in the realm of a light full choke - such chokes should not be used for shooting slugs. I put an annotation in that video correcting that. Another viewer, JoeHunt, pointed out to me that I probably meant to say .729" and that is the actual case - cylinder bores are what are recommended for slug shooting and that is .729". Sorry for the foul-up on that...I'm going to check that video right away...Yes, the annotation of .729" is there. Best Regards, FC
Ah, ok. I'm not in the habit of watching videos with annotations turned on. Thanks for the explanation!
Makes sense. FWIW, I get good foster slug accuracy with an IC choke tube in a 20" 870 barrel. Better buck patterns too. I agree with sone of the commenters- i can't help but wonder if there is some behind th e scenes collusion between the mould makers and the ammo companies. I like your videos and your exolanations. i binge watched a lot of your casting videos recently. Great stuff. de-mystified a lot
Troy Ortega - Thanks for the gracious remarks...Congrats on getting good slug accuracy - never sell or trade a shotgun that shoots slugs well for you... We can buy the very jacketed bullets the ammo companies use in their factory rounds. But we can't buy their slugs, nor can we cast their slugs...We can buy similar from BPI, but not the exact slugs the factories use...It's like they want to keep their proprietary slugs all to themselves at $1-2+ dollars a shot. We can load our Lee slugs in our trap wads and get good economy shooting for recreation, range and practice though... Best to ya, FC
Have you tried cutting the wad leaves down to about 1/8th of an inch length? This will reduce the drift when exiting the barrel, but still give the protection to the slug or round and not diminish the force of the powder load. Make a cutting jig. Drill a half round into a wood block, then cut a slot for a small blade to be place with a screw or screw block to hold it in place. Insert the wad into place and twist, it should cut each leaf evenly and give you consistency.
Kurt Boulter - Yes on petal cutting - have tried that in varying degrees...but still doesn't match factory slugs for accuracy. Like your idea of a wad cutter, though...sounds like you make your own hull cutters also...Best to ya, FC
I'd be willing to bet that you could somehow fabricate your own wads to mate with a slug, possibly out of simple fiberboard or the like, doing away entirely with the shot wads you've had to settle for.
You'd also need full caliber (.729 or larger) slug molds, assuming they're available, and it would definitely help your accuracy if you could get a crimper to do that interesting inner roll crimp used on factory slugs.
Thanks for the reply. Is the wad you are referring to the pink clay buster WAA12F1/SL? We are loading a low brass Winchester AA Hull hopefully for a low recoil accurate shot.
+gsxr419 -- I have not used that wad - it is the Claybuster substitute wad for the Win AA12SL, but I had a bad experience with Claybuster AA12 substitute wads for slug shooting - the Claybuster wad has these flanges inside the petals that prevented the slug from going in. So I have avoided the Claybuster AA12SL wad also for all this time. If it is the SL wad, it should take the 7/8 oz slug unless it has those flanges also... Good reloadin' to ya. FC
so when you say reload do you mean buying 25$ 100 round box of like 8 shot, cut the cap with a shotgun shell trimmer like a mountain storm shotgun trimmer, melting the shot in a pot and casting it into 7/8 or 1oz slugs and loading the key slug back into the shell? I'm about to start this this weekend, only doing this for shotgun practice at 7 - 25 yards. Most ranges where I'm at won't allow birdshot and I never liked shooting the stuff anyways so, natural option. Going to do federal field & target, heard the wadding is 2 piece and is most ideal for like wax slugs, might be good for this.
Nice knife I got 2 of the blurs, cpms30v blades stonewashed finish, same as urs
Hello all everyone What is the best quality of the 12mm gauge tarpaulin are both very fast and describe the target 100% at a distance of 30 meters, 50 meters, 70 meters at the same time and more and strong there is many species?
Since you now have the hourglass pellet mold, perhaps experiment with wads punch pressed from paper/card stock?
A greased felt (lambswool?) gas check might be helpful.
For rifled barrels, a copper gas check would likely have to be punched, and a tool made to crimp it on the base of the rim.
Lawrence Page - Thanks for your comment and for your thoughts designed to solve an age old problem. Perhaps if the pellet slug were .730" to be .001 over the .729 bores, your wads would work well. But as the slug is .682", it is too loose a fit for accuracy if it is shot bare - it was designed to be inserted into petal wads to fit the bore and the AA12 and DRA 12s seem to do that the best (for me, anyway)...Have a great day...
That blue wad stack looks very much like it comes from a BPI thug slug- from 2,000 miles away I'm about 99% certain.
Using the Thugslugs in a 18 1/2 smooth bore Mossberg 590A1 I get better groups than I do with factory foster slugs.
And curiously the best patterns come from the low end of the powder weight ladder.
Now the problem is it seems I pay about $ 17/25 so I'm not saving money... At 50 yds it is not uncommon for the slug & wad to stay together and I see them in the berm behind the target so it is a effective press fit...
MrStandup2p - Thank you for this very valuable comment - more than you know...The BPI slugs are the closest thing we have to the factory proprietary slug/wad combos for accuracy. I've always said that the BPIs were the way to go except that you get no savings from factory slugs. And if the factory slugs do well for us when we hunt and purpose our ammo, then we should use our factory ammo there. But our own cast slugs are so economical, we can sure use them for all practice, recreation and plinking shooting out to 40-50 yards or so. Our economy is where we really beat the factory ammo, and if they aren't as accurate, that's OK...Best to you.
Great video, does anyone have any thoughts on shooting a Lee round ball through a NEF 20ga with a full choke? The ball dia. is .600 and weighs 324.25 grains. I'm looking for a powder and wad to use with either Rem or Win 2 3/4" shells.
I know with my 16 gauge Ithaca Deerslayer accuracy with factory loads are incredible, I know I can get sub 1-inch groups with the smooth barrel (26 inches) with factory slugs either Remington or Winchester. What I want to know is it possible to load Minie balls (.574-.577 diameter) in a 16 gauge wad instead of trying to find a mold, which is next to impossible?
Bayan1905- Answer is yes, you can, but check the fit of the Minie in your wads - if it's a bit loose, you might want to paper patch the Minie until the wad/slug is a snug push through the barrel with a long wooden dowel. Then load 'em. I don't have any data for you, but Herco or Blue Dot powder should be fine. Best Regards...
On exiting barrel, four wad petals open unevenly and push the held slug sideways. That's all, folks!
good info buddy great video
Jimmy Jimmy - Thank you for the good word…Best Regards to you...
Have you ever tried removing the petals from the shotcup wads? You might be able to do that, and maybe use wax or hot glue to mate the wad to the slug. I dunno.
You do know for slugs for 1200 to 1500 fps you need a 1 to 35 over twist in a barrel or choke. Then velocities of 1600 fps to 1800fps a 1 to 30 inch twist in your barrel/choke is needed. Your accuracy problems may be the twist rate of your barrel which rate is it? Some people load to certain velocties with out considering their barrel twist or even the projectile wieghts which is extremly important for your accuracy. Also velocity or even the powder or the wads/ cup you load with is the enemy of accuraccy. Exceed the speed for that twist and it suffers or use the wrong powder and the same hppens. People can and do get 2 inch and under shot groups at 50 meters and some times less but a lot of factors come into play.
bulboo1- I do know that my barrel is the standard Mossberg 1x36" twist, but did not know that other twist rates were available. 1800 with slugs is fair punishing - don't think shooting 83 slug loads like I did the other day would be done with those blasters. Rifling twist was very important when we shot High Power with our ARs - my 1x9" twist shot the 55-63 grainers best, but the 1x7" shot the 69+s. Your info is much appreciated - I am finding that the 1150-1200 range is shooting accurately for me at this time (and very pleasant for range or recreation) - more 50 yard testing to nail that down though...Have a great day
You have only determined me to make/develop a super accurate slug load . if I were you I'd stop using the 500 and go for something like the savage 212 . the 500 wasnt built to be a slug gun
bwspyder1-You definitely have a great point there - As you already infer, the M - 500 was built and designed to be in the vein of the Rem 870 - very versatile shotgun system that can do anything in shotgunning - but not necessarily at the top of efficiencies specifically. With my rig, I'm good to reliable 50 yards with my reloads, 100 with factory sabots. Like most, I just don't like the price tags on factory for general shooting...
The Wad is only there to keep the slug centered in the barrel. The wad under ideal conditions will fall off the slug as soon as the slug and cup leave the barrel. missing petals of the wad is likely because of the air currents, or that your barrel to cup and slug fit is to tight. ideally you want your shotcup and slug to match the barrel at .729".
The Lyman has the potential to be the most accurate with a wad that will expand into the base and expand the base of the pellet to the bore size like a Maxi ball for a muzzle loader.
A shot cup would need to specially made that is just fiber so that powder charges can be upped to close to factory.
+Izuzan -- You've got it...only problem is that the wads the factories use to do just what you have got - we don't got. What we have are wads designed to shoot shot columns at clay targets at MV 1250fps - not solid slugs at 1500. Factories also use perfectly mated slugs to really tough post wads that stay square to the bore and the slug while the post keeps the slug centered - the slugs often have skirts that ride our cylinder bore (or other not recommended bores) barrels. Not surprising that the factory loads outshoot anything we can reload in both accuracy and power. Maybe some of our reload slugs can shoot OK in 3 shot groups at 50 yards, but consistently? No way. You've got the concepts, but we don't have the components available that will enable the concepts. Good shootin' to ya... FC
+FortuneCookie45LC , what about for the lyman slugs using powdercoat the take up the space at the bottom of the wad. or use your polymer insert in the bottom with a couple 12ga fiber wads under to help the lyman slug expand to the bore.
as far as i have read the top of the slug is closer to bore dia than the base. with a coat or 2 of powder coating on the skirt of the slug it could get very close to bore dia. and the fiber wads should allow higher velocities.
i have also seen other youtubers using 43grains of bluedot or herco under standard wads and getting 3-4 inch groups at 50 meters with the lyman slugs and a rifled choke.
+Izuzan -- First of all, there are no secrets to our slug reloading - you use a Lee Load All, or a MEC or some of the old Pacific, Lyman or C H shotshell presses from many years ago. Or some use table kits to load shotshells. It is possible to load shotshells without any tools at all. We resize the shell or not, reprime, dump in powder by scoop or scale, seat a wad and slug - fold or roll a crimp. I'ts simpler than loading metallics. Let's put it this way - I was shooting my reload slugs at 50 yards rested and getting 5 - 6" groups, and there was this 50+ year old Bullseye competition guy in the next lane practicing his 50 yard slow fire one handed, of course. The guy was hitting the 10 ring with over half his shots - impressive shooting. We go up to the targets, and I am lamenting that I can't get the 3" groups I want with my reloads. He said "That's not bad for home slugs." Another slug shooter, Dennis, loves to shoot 12 gauge slugs offhand at 50 and 25 yards - he only shoots Fiocchi factory slugs (buys them by the case for best price) and saves me all his empties. He won't shoot reloads as he can't get factory accuracy, and buying by the bulk, he can get his price down to 80 cents a shell. Point is, there may be those out there getting 3-4 inch groups at 50, but are they getting dependable 3-4". If they are, they should never sell those guns as there is magic there. I keep telling everybody that our reload slugs are wonderful as they allow us to shoot reliably out to 35 yards and in for range, recreation and practice at as low a price as 12 cents a shot. And for hunting or purpose, factory ammo is best - Foster or sabot slugs. As for all the jerryrigs we can try (and there is a lot of that going on), safety first, but it is very hard to beat factory - shotgun slugs is the one place that we cannot beat factory ammo. Good shootin' to ya... FC
FortuneCookie45LC,
I've only read some of the comments on this video so please forgive me if my additions are just retreading previous questions from others.
As you are probably aware, you could have a custom mold maker make you a mold that drops slugs at the desired diameter. Expensive? Yes but may give you the accuracy you desire. Another option is getting the Lee molds opened up by "Leementing" or re-machined. After opening up the mold, old school card wads could be used.
I agree that mold manufacturers should provide properly sized slugs. It wouldn't hurt if the ammo companies offered their slug wads for sale too.
MrTaco250 - Simplest would be to send a factory slug (with the little skirt extension at the base to swage to the barrel as the rest of the slug rides the bore) to Lee or Lyman and request a mold that casts that very slug. My take is they won't do it for the reason that if they would do it, they would already have done it. You cannot rig a current mold to work as the Lee slugs are slimmer at the base than the wider front ogive section. If the slug was just casted bigger by mold altering, you still would not get the factory slug - wider at the base to obturate the barrel while the rest of the slug rides the barrel. And then, you'd have to size the slug to round it and get the proper .729" diameter or so. Best Regards
+MrTaco250 -- Aha!! You've been searching for good shooting reload slugs as I have been. Lately, my slug shooting has slowed down - slugs take up lots of my favored powders - I can shoot 3-4 pistol rounds for the powder in one slug load...I like your thinking - if the factories would put out their slug components, they fear loss of sales for their ammo...and that is significant because of all the shotgun seasons and shotgun only areas of hunting... Best to ya, lFC
Pssst.. FC, Most 12ga barrels average .729" which is very close to 18.5mm.
Interestingly a full choke averages .040" or 1mm smaller (0.689"), which is most probably why lee round balls measure in at .690, If somebody accidentally shoots them in a full choked shotgun, it will squeeze the shot cup to shreds but should withstand the mass squeezing through the choke without catastrophic failure.. At least a few times! lol
Iv often thought about shooting the lee round balls and slugs through a full choke, using a wad with the petals removed and seeing how they perform.. It hasnt happened yet as im a bit chicken to try it! lol :-)
joehunt1980- You are absolutely right. When I shot trap comp, I had all the measurements of my shotgun barrels by heart, and being out of competition for a while, somehow, the .700 stuck in my mind. I have measured all my slug wad combos and they can be pushed through a cylinder bore because they mike at around .732" and my cylinder bore barrels measure .727-.728" I just got that .700 stuck in my mind for some crazy reason. The video would have been fine if I just mentioned the right measurements. Now, I'm going to probably have to see if the thing can be fixed or remake required - it will be my first one. I knew you YTubers don't miss anything. Something did sound odd to me when I said the slug had to be swaged down to .700 from .723-.238 - that would have been a lot of swaging…Thanks for the correction...
FortuneCookie45LC
Lol all good brother.. I had to double check my Lyman Shotshell Reloading Handbook to make sure my memory served me right! lol
Speaking of that book, have you ever tried their Foster style slugs that is used without a plastic wad? I wonder if they can be used in a rifled shotgun barrel.. :-)
joehunt1980 When I didn't have my rifled barrel all those years (expensive barrel + the Lyman mold would pay for another whole shotgun - reason I kept waiting on doing that), I was always intrigued by the pellet slug - the Lyman Fosters just seemed like the Lees and I wasn't in favor of going back to the filler / overpowder wad columns - like a technological step backwards…like a lot of slug reloaders, we wanted to will the Lee slugs to success - still wanting that after 35 years thinking there's got to be something to get that accuracy. Now you've got me thinking about the possibilities with my Mossy rifled barrel and the "other" Lyman slug…Again, I'm a thankin' ya fer pickin' up my gaffe.
Man I put a few thug slugs over some red dot 1475 fps..gun laying on a closed gate 2 inches at 50 exact yards...smooth bore 500, believe it or not dont care, I still have the target in my "room"
Fortune cookie you should take a look at my mossberg 500 video I cut open a remington slug thanks for such an in depth video on slugs I learned a lot
I think Lyman makes a smooth foster style slug mold which is not designed for use with shot cups.
+martK banjoboy - Unfortunately, the Lyman foster slug drops at .705" Designed to be shot through cylinder bores (.729 - .730"), that can only work well in shot cups having the thinner petals. Of course, you might find that your gun shoots them well without the cup wads. Good shootin' to ya... FC
I've heard of some guys using bare (no shot cup) .735" cast round balls. Some have reported 1500+ fps and 2" groups at 50 yards with rifled choke tubes. Best results seem to be with longshot or bluedot powders, plastic gas seals, and fiber wads. There's a couple threads on castboolits about it.
+Harbingerofd00m -- As you know, I've shot the .690 RBs through shotcups, and now that I have Longshot powder, I need to revisit with that - all my slug shooting in the past has been done with RD, Unique, and Blue Dot (and there hasn't been any of those three powders for over 3 years). My preference for shotgun slugs is to be able to push the wad/slug through the barrel snugly with a long wood dowel - then I load 'em. The reason I avoided that slug in my shotgun barrels is that the round ball is too big to push through, so the pressures would be higher. That slug would weigh close to 1 1/4 oz and at 1500fps, that would be a true magnum slug. I'd prefer a slug .001 - .002" bigger than groove diameter or bore diameter = .729" rifled; .730" for smooth. .735" is a little too big, but I can see how that might work very well in rifled barrels...Something to consider again - Thanks for the tip... FC
FortuneCookie45LC
You're welcome! I believe the guy who got the .735 up to 1500 was using a lathe-turned brass case, too. The RB weighs somewhere around 1-5/16 oz using pure lead, but most of the loads I've heard use 1-3/8 oz or even 1-1/2 oz load data to keep the pressures safe. Only the truly adventurous go up to 1500 like that one person. Hope this was helpful!
+Harbingerofd00m -- Absolutely helpful, and to anyone who wants the information as well... FC
what I do is use herco powder won't say the charge then use a over powder card and then a black powder cushion wad then Roll crimp it in and I've gotten super tight groups using this method through a rifled barrel
donald plank - That is the traditional slug loads, and if the slug fits your rifled bore well, that accuracy you are getting is enabled. You do not want to let that barrel get away from you as it will stand up against the gates of hell...with a bit of help, of course... Have a great day, FC
The way the wad and preassures are applied to the slug, say..12s4 vs that thug slug wad, the way it pushes it is like front wheel drive vs rear, front is a lot harder to screw up basically pulling from the front and having a tail, vs regular wad flexing and doin all sorts of funny off stuff
what if you cut the pedals off of the wads on the home-made rounds and use a couple of drops of superglue to stick the wad to the slug? Might help your accuracy dilemma.
DeanMk1 - Cutting petals off to keep them from being stripped off with loss of accuracy has long been tried - works and doesn't work. If the Superglue worked holding the petals to the slug, they would not have had to be cut off in the first place. And if the petals stripped off from inadequate fit of the wad slug to the barrel, then Superglue would not keep the glued on petals from holding under the friction of shell and barrel either. If the wad and slug combo fits the barrel properly, the assembly will go through the barrel nicely and stay centered, then the wad drops off after barrel exit... Best to ya, FC
FC, you misread my suggestion, but maybe I didn't put enough information in my suggestion, so please allow me to try this again...Cut the pedals off first and discard them. Then glue the slug to the REMAINING PORTION of the wad (that being the lower half of the wad). Basically, I'm suggesting a poor man's version of a Brenneke-type arrangement.
DeanMk1 - There are two basic kind of slugs that we have 1) the slugs that are designed to be bore fit with skirts on the slugs that are barrel contact or use some kind of polymer rider like the European steel slugs. 2) Slugs that are in shot sleeves or shot cups. When you inspect factory slugs, you see post wads that are mated to hollow bases on the slugs. Plus you will see very strong compression zones on the wads to keep the slugs centered. Allows factory slugs to shoot to max power and accuracy. We don't have those components available to home casters or reloaders. The best we have are jerryrigged wads that were designed to shoot 1200 fps target shot charges, not 1 1/8 oz slugs at 1500 fps or so. I have full videos on the factory slugs dissected etc...Your idea is a good one, but will not compare to the post wads that are proprietary for the slugs. You should give it a try - if it holds together, might work fine... Best to ya, FC
I see what you're saying, and it definitely has merit, but from your video, it appears you only have available to you what we see. Sure, the wad might not be as stout as a dedicated slug wad, but its better than nothing. As for the slug itself, I was referring to the 7/8 oz. and 1 oz. Lee slugs you show in the video. Your dilemma seems to be these are lacking in accuracy, thus my suggestion for the wad. But hey, it was just a suggestion. You're the one doing the experiments and making the videos, give it a shot....or not. Just tryin' to help. Good luck. =)
DeanMk1 - My slug shooting has been curtailed by powder availability. Note I can shoot 3 or 4 pistol rounds for every shotgun slug I load. Now that powders are coming back, time to start doing the slugs again...But they've got to take their turn in the cue of video subjects...Got a lot of projects to finish up before the slugs pop up again... Thanks for the suggestion...Might work better if the slug we use was bigger to be more of a fit to the barrel...the Lee 1 oz, 7/8 and the Lyman 525 are all small slugs designed to be slipped into target wads. And we aren't supposed to shoot slugs through choked barrels regardless... Best to ya FC
Hiya FC45LC, what would you suggest would be a good wad for a fiochhi new hull and a slug either round ball or cut down conical from lee, 20 ga is my chosen gun
Robbie Fortner - The Federal 20S1 would be a good start - it was designed for straight wall hulls like the Fiocchi. If your slugs are a loose fit, you can add some fiberfill under and around the slug to tighten up the fit. If too tight and you can't push the wad/slug through the cylinder or IC barrel, the slug is too big. If the slug is.615", you'll have to shoot it bare by either cutting the petals off the 20S1 or going with 20 gauge overpowder and filler wads with your bare slug. Good shootin' to ya
Thanks amigo
Yes, this is a sad state of affairs. But why do we put up with it? Molds are not that tough to make nor expensive to buy. I am seriously thinking of machining some grooves into an inexpensive Lee Drive Key mold to create two bands on the slugs that will engage with a rifled barrel or choke tube. Then one could use a trap wad with the petals removed, and carefully start working loads until you get up to factory performance. Any reason why doing this would be a problem???
vetterobert - You certainly can do all that, and you have safety built into your efforts. However, you still won't wind up with anything akin to factory proprietary slug wad combos that were made for each other. If you mod a mold and mod the wads, you still have wads and slugs that were never designed to be used together. Not only are factory slugs and wads designed to go together, but also to work in the majority of shotgun barrels to work best together. It's a conspiracy against slug shooters. Have a great day, FC
If only we had access to those proprietary wads!
+TheUSAforever1 -- or if Lee had worked with a wad maker to make wads mated to their slugs - How easy would that have been? And the wad maker would know that for every Lee slug mold sold, there was going to be ongoing sales of their wads for as long as the patents held out. Lyman could have done the same with their Fosters - post wads and columns all set for the various hulls out there - shooters would have bought these wads 6 bags at a time for each of their hull options. All the guesswork would be taken out of it... Cast the Lee 1 oz slug and buy the Claybuster 1oz Lee Slug wad for Win AA hulls loaded with Lee data - all tested and done. Problem would be that the ammo companies sales of their $1 a shot Fosters and $3-$5 a shot sabots would drop by 60%. Wouldn't surprise me if the ammo companies contracted with Lee and Lyman to never do just what is mentioned above with a gag order in the contract. Happy Holidays to ya, FC
+TheUSAforever1 -- Amen on that one, bro - plus Lee makes slug molds to match them.... Best to ya, FC
buy a box of 1oz birdshot .cut the shell at the end ,pull the shot and wad .replace it with a fiber wad and 2 shotcards, place your slug on top and do a bead roll.run the full bore slug youll be amazed .get rid of the fucking shotcup.
It is a shame all the things we can not buy in the U.S.A. The only slugs on the market for reloaders that I know of are the ones Ballistic Products offers and they are fine slugs but as you said by the time you get them loaded you may as well buy factory made slugs. If someone sold a soft lead rifled slug that is full bore and we could use fiber wads with ( At a reasonable price), it would be a top seller. I bought a Lee .690 round ball mold and worked up a good thunder ball load for it for my plinking slugs. With a Large charge of Longshot powder they are a lot of fun and plenty accurate out to fifty yards or so in a smooth bore. VERY cheap to produce too. MUCH more effective than buckshot for sure.
ditchdigger93 - And those 690 round balls pack a good whallop...They shoot well. Continued good shootin' to ya with those - FC
ditchdigger93 which wad or piston for 69 round ball. my 58cal round balls are blowing out the factory wads
I have good luck with Ballistic Products Brush wad. It's a double ended wad and a .69 cal ball fits into it very well. I get good accuracy with them and longshot powder.
ditchdigger93 - Thanks for the tip - I think I know the wad you are talking about...next order from BPI, will have to get some of those... Best to ya, FC
Thanks for posting is it safe to use slugs in a H&R single shot modifed choke rifle?i have been told i can but its unrifled? Single bird shot i use at skeet?
Most factory slugs say they are safe to use through up to full choke. Full choke is tighter than modified. Read the packaging on the specific slugs you intend to shoot. Most Foster or Breneke type commercial slugs will be OK. For home made slugs, you need to check first and make sure the slug and wad will fit through the barrel. FC45LC did a video on how this works a while back, so look through his archive on shotgun reloading for it. Avoid solid slugs like roundballs, sabots, and anything similar to Rem Copper Solid.
Thanks for info scared to use
Hey. I tried to reply yesterday, but YT was being wierd. I have an NEF/ H&R Pardner 12 in fixed Full Choke. I've safely fired Remington 3" mag slugs, Winchester ditto, and also B&P softies. I didn't get any looney toons banana peel action on the barrell, and that is a tighter choke than yours. I can suggest getting a good recoil pad though- That's a light little gun, and you will feel the slugs a lot more than your gun will. My favorite is to get a used KickEez pad from the bin at a gunsmith or ebay and fit it to the gun. They are the best and they don't get hard with age.
FortuneCookie,
Have you tested your O.D= 0.686" Lee slug thru a full-choke barrel. My Remington 870's full choke tube I.D= 0.686" . Remember what they say " Barrel diameter vs. slug diameter is a major factor in accuracy". An improved cylinder is 0.715" (at least my Remington IC- tube is) , chances are Lee slug is wobbling thru that choke.
You may already have done such test , if so , I would like to hear about your test results ( accuracy with full choke).
Thanks,
Wolfboro Two - Lots of problems here - firstly we are not supposed to shoot any of our slugs reloaded or factory thru our FC barrels. (Now the manufacturers know that this is done either accidentally or on purpose a lot so they have made their bare slugs so that they will pass thru FCs without blowing the barrels up - their slugs are designed to shoot best through cylinder or IC bores only) Our reload slugs would have to be shot bare through FC barrels as if shot in wad cups, all the petals would strip and pressures would spike perhaps disastrously. Now if shot bare, our reload slugs (designed to be shot in wad cups that don't work well with them) would first bounce around inside the barrel and then squeeze through the choke - accuracy is not helped by that. And the loaded rounds with the bare reloaded slugs would bounce around inside the shell a bit even before firing. Factory Foster slugs are mounted on post wads used to keep the slugs centered in barrels greatly helping their accuracy - we have no wads like that available for our cast slugs and the factory Foster slugs we can neither make or buy - This disparity of reloading slugs vs factory does not exist for any other type of reloading we do - a mystery... Best to ya
FortuneCookie45LC
I think I will conduct that full choke test sometime in near future and keep you posted.
Brenneke slug O.D= 0.729" , Brenneke Wad OD=0.747" ( as per Guns&Ammo article written by Kevin Steele) and this is being fired thru IC ( 0.715") .
Wolfboro Two I've been shooting Lee slugs for 35 years, trying to find the magic formula for accuracy without real success. Just when you think you've got a good load, the next batch gives you what I call, the 3rd shot flyer. It's because even though the Lee slugs were designed to be put into common shotcups, the wads were never designed to be used with slugs. And shotgun barrels vary across the board - it's hard to find chokes that are the same. You will hear of some reports of 2" groups at 50 yards with Lee slugs, or 3" groups at 100 yards. When I hear of such, I know that 1) they have the rare magic barrel /slug /wad/load combination working for them or 2) they have the statistical good group but don't shoot or report subsequent consistent success. Factory Foster and sabot slugs shoot well for power and accuracy for the reasons we have already discussed. Why Lee won't put out a mold to cast those hourglass shaped sub caliber sabot slugs and then sell us the plastic wads to mate with them for our rifled barrels is a mystery. And why Lee won't let us cast Fosters with the enlarged ring at the base to engage barrels so we can shoot them bare with a custom post wad (from Lee of course), is also beyond me. Unless we can cast our slugs ourself, we will not be able to achieve the economy we also highly desire. Best Regards
FortuneCookie45LC I can see your frustration with poor accuracy, but also with the lack of availability of good components in the market to improve slug accuracy .I can only speculate that some under-the-table deals not to interfere with each other's business territory. Lee is a toolmaker for reloading dies , if it steps on the toes of (Federal, Remington, Winchester and Brenneke,BRI ,etc.) I can imagine the repercussion . Also, I did not check with US Patent Dept. website , there may be patents on certain slug and wad designs that may limit other companies to duplicate . ( my speculation ).
My bottom-line is the same as yours. We can cast shotgun slugs rather cheaply and enjoy plinking up to 50 yards . I call it a win-win scenario , even if home made slug does not have the hunting accuracy.
Another thing that drew my attention. There is not a single "scientific statement" in the Lee brochure supplied with the slug-mold. Statements are like " The drive key assures positive rotation of the slug in rifled barrels" or , " Mediocre loads were transformed into spectacular loads by simply changing the wad ". I would expect them to provide some scientific data ( shooting and test conditions, type of barrel, wad wall-thickness, diameter of the wad's bottom-cup , accuracy grouping obtained at various distances,etc.) . I think it is a shame .
By the way , I saw some sabot rounds used in "Muzzleloaders" . They have the same kind of soft flimsy plastic shut-cups resembling a shotgun sabot round. It is known that muzzleloaders accuracy is better than shotgun in general . This is interesting to me .
I understand that you have already done extensive work on shotgun wad/gunpowder combinations in your search for accuracy.
Thanks,
Finally I found some time to conduct a test shooting with my own cast slugs thru various barrels . I used 4 different barrels (all are 20" deer barrels in 12 gauge , smooth bbl . ID=0.712" (@muzzle), Fully Rifled bbl ID=0.0.720" , Rifled Choke ID=0.715" , Modified Choke ID=.705") .
All test shooting done with a 4X scope, from a bench rest ,target at 50 yards ,adhering basic shooting principles (breathe-relax-aim-take up trigger slack-squeeze ) . Barrels were attached to receiver with a magazine extention clamp and tightened with tool for a solid barrel fix. Here are 4 shot averages ;
1-Rifled Choke : 4 .75 in.
2-Smooth bbl : 6.5 in.
3-Fully Rifled bbl. : 7 in.
4-Modified Choke : 7.75 in.
(Accuracy of MOD choke did not give me any incentive to try FULL choke , so I skipped it ).
Bottom Line : The accuracy is totally unacceptable .
Next time around I will include some "factory ammo" for better comparison . But first , I have to come up with some idea (s) to improve my slug handloading . At the end of the day "Brenneke" will be my choice for hunting , so handloading is just fun work .
Shoot safely ,
What wad would you suggest for a lee 7/8 slug?
+gsxr419 -- Thanks for the good question... the lee 7/8 fits into the WinAA12SL wad well for AA hulls and the Federal 12S0 for the straight wall two piece hulls well. The WinAA12 can also be used, but the petals are a little on the long side. Good reloadin' to ya, FC
Call Lee or I am thinking call the ATF they have very odd rules. I would love to load factory style slugs
Seriously guys are we supposed to be trying to make slugs hit a 2-in Target at over 50 yards?
If I have to knock something down dead at 50 yards or further, I'm pulling out my AR-10 in 45 Raptor or in 308!
I was taught that the shotgun was a close range weapon.
what's your opinion on the rifled choke ext. ?
+MCKwilly -- Shotgun barrels and individual choke tubes are all individual with character of their own. Therefore, no one's opinion based on their own shooting can be gospel. However, smoothbore shotgun barrels can be amazingly accurate, especially with factory foster type slugs - my iron sight H & K shoots factory Win 1 oz into 2-4" 3 shot groups at 100 yards. And I would not hesitate to take on hunting situations at 50 yards with field position shooting with my Benelli smoothbore Nova with factory Fosters. We can surprise ourselves at distance shooting with just beads. Reload slugs are another story - best accuracy I've found with home cast reload slugs is 4-6" groups at 50 yards. So reloads are good for 50-60 yards at most, factory Fosters to 100 yards - but you have to test for yourself. You might be the lucky owner of a "magic" shotgun barrel. Factory sabot slugs usually shoot poorly from smooth barrels. Now the idea of rifled choke tubes is to give smoothbore owners the option of shooting factory sabot slug ammo. You would have to test various sabot slugs to see if the accuracy you get is acceptable for hunting. It's like finding the 22 LR ammo that a particular rimfire gun likes - once you find it - you stock up or load up a storm. No shooter I know plinks with factory sabot ammo. But many do with reload slugs. I can load 8 - 10 reload slugs for cost of 1 factory round. If you have the extra money to spend for a rifled barrel, that will give you more consistent performance overall with factory sabots. You could shoot Fosters through a rifled barrel, but I've haven't found any definite reliable improvement in accuracy that way. Plus, you can't shoot buckshot or any shot charges through the rifled barrel unless the range is really short. Good shootin' to ya, FC
+FortuneCookie45LC I got my son the rifled barrel, and was hoping to work up a good Lee 1oz load for it, thank you for your input your vids are very informative and fun, I also used unique starting weight with 240 gr JHP for 45 Colt out of my buddies Puma lever gun, they acted like they barely got out of the barrel, thank you for your time
+MCKwilly -- Congrats on getting that rifled barrel for your son. In the future, he will often remember your kindness in giving that to him. Unique is one of the most versatile powders we have. Starting charges of Unique are really pipsqueaks in pistol caliber rifles. But nothing wrong with starting there, reloaders can always adjust their powder charges as safe and necessary. Good shootin' to ya, FC
FortuneCookie45LC Thanks for the mention. I have been falling behind on my watch later video list, so I'm late to the game. I wonder if you can use a modified hybrid shot cup around your 525 lyman slug, and a fiber wad below, after you trim off the collapsible plastic base part? Just a thought. I have never done shotgun reloads, but thinking outside the box here.
Jon-after seeing what happens when we seat our 1 piece wads (random distortion of the obturation part) explains flyers and inconsistent burns - perhaps going with separate and SURE seating of overpowder cup, then filler wad (s) - but it would help if Lyman made their slugs mike at .729" - we would be heading towards factory bare slug specs…or get Lee to bore out their 1 oz molds !! Going the way you suggest - we'd get Lyman pellet to drop at - say 58 cal. and then get Downrange or Claybuster to make a sabot (that looks like 1. the original forked flashhiders on AR-15 rifles or 2. fitted complete cover split sabot) to fit that with the outside at .729" - we'd be in business…Best Regards
Jon-glad to mention on that video…keep up the good work...
FortuneCookie45LC not sure you can get Lee to increase diameter, I remember seeing a blog or video, where someone used a cast bullet, a power drill, and lapping compound to increase mold diameter in a Lee mold. I see that as a last resort. I see that a cast slug closer to bore diameter would help a lot. Good luck, and keep us informed of your progress.
BPI has slug components to buy !
What about paper patch slugs to make them bigger ?
Nathan Mullins - No need since we have the plastic cup wads...but if not, in a pinch, we certainly could use any kind of patching like in the early days of firearms. The obturator gas seal would still be a good idea though. Would require careful testing starting low on powder and working up for safety. Personally, I wouldn't do it. Best to ya, FC Steve
factory 12 gauge slug ammo MUST cost under 40 cent !!
CAN'T you just get wads made for slugs?
Thanks will look into limb saver
Slugs need spin...
TheNisgaa-Always a good idea. But these modern 12 gauge smoothbores even single shots, would have tripled the casualties in the Civil War. Good thing the battles were fought with muzzleloaders - if there could be a good thing there…Best Regards to ya...
as a last resort couldn't a person just over cook some scrap to get the antimony and tin out?
And that isnt uncommon in my world
3 d printer my friend and you make thema as you wish...l dont know about the cost though
TZINO C Thanks for your comment. If we could 3D print cast slugs and cast bullets, that would sure beat using our hot cast iron and bottom draw pots...Didn't know they could print with lead, though... that would have to be expensive... Best to ya...
I don t speak about the ptojectile l speak about the prefferable shape of the wad good idea tjough about the lead.for the wad it can be done quite cheap
TZINO C Very interesting - we can make the wads that they don't sell us...way to go TZINO C. But now we'll have to get the lead slug that is mated to the wad - the slug and the wad has to go together for best performance. So far, we can't buy those slugs, neither can we cast them ourselves. Have a great day
You can adjust by specific and detailed measurements a wad made to go the distance together with the 1 ounch lee slug l may me able to be made one that would fit and stay there to the two chambers of the slug, the foster or the rifled slugs or palla as we say here have one chamber and the wad stuck in it.why not make a wad that can stuck in the lee slug?give it as a project to a college boy that has access to a 3d printer who knows may work out and for free:-)
TZINO C By golly, by gosh, by gar - college student wad project - I do like your thinking. Lee should have made those wads available many years ago - calculate all the wad sales they could have made - an accurate shooting economical home made slug. (But then every factory slug that would not have been purchased would have made the ammo companies very upset - there may have been deals made that we don't know about). For that matter, the door is still open for someone to make that wad - if it works well, it could be mass produced and marketed (there's a big demand out there) - then a big ammo company might come and buy your company for big bucks. Have a great day
It isn't possible to get cast slugs to shoot 1-3" groups at 100 yards. I've got 6-7 loads right now that does it. Still playing around with Lee key drives. I got a Facebook page with pics and load recipes. You can find them there.
facebook.com/groups/213522172431808/
so pretty much just better off reloading buckshot
Lyman slug win waa12f14 wad 4mm card under slug 21 to 28gr win super field gives me 2 to 3 inch groups at 50 yards use 21 gr for ipsc and 28 gr8 for hunting in a vepr 12 cyl bore
owder
I was able to get 2" group at 50 yds. with a Mossberg 20 ga. rifled barrel. I used Remington hulls - RXP 20 wad (petals removed ) - one 1/4 cards - .600 round ball - 29 gn. Blue dot. I was copying Remington rifled slug which has no wadding. The problem I had was the round ball size .595 and would roll through the barrel. ( not good ) I was able to push the RXP 20 wad and the round ball through barrel with ease, but that still wasn't good either. So I checked different thickness and discovered that a 1-1/4" lubed cotton patch .010 thick gave me the best resistance. I made 5 load groups starting at 27 gn. with 5" group and stopped at 29. gn. because I didn't have enough hulls for reloading anymore. Maybe that will work for you ?
+moiecol I'm new to shotgun loading, but is ballistic coefficient a factor at all? Because a 20ga is likely higher BC compared to 12ga - and thus might fly flatter/faster - just a random thought
With a scope mounted, I would probably so no on coefficiency
+moiecol --The patch is a great idea - I used to tell shooters who didn't like the rattle of a loose slug in the wads to put in some fiberfill - your patch idea might go one better in terms of providing better accuracy to boot...well done!! Thanks for posting this - now I've got to go back and see which combos are loose enough in barrel push to allow me to patch... FC
+moiecol -- I'm going to have to look at diameters of RBs that will allow the patching... Have a great day, FC
If the wads are the main cause for poor accuracy someone should start to make better wads because there's a market for them. If that doesn't happen maybe people should start experimenting with improvised wads. Maybe a ball of cheap sheep wool will work better than an actual wad.
Prepare2Survive-Shooters have been improvising shotshells for the last 200 years. Recall even an episode of The Big Valley, when James Whitmore, playing a bad guy, shot people with shotgun loaded with pebbles because it "lowered his overhead". Cut shotshells and wax slugs came out of experimentation as well. Don't know about your sheep wool though...