Why don't more electric bikes have regen brakes?
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
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I'm currently running with a Grin Technologies Gmac 10T motor. It does regen braking, has a virtual freewheeling feature in the controller (so it feels like normal freewheeling), and is a geared motor. I usually gain back around 8-11% of my ride depending on my riding style and haven't had to engage my brakes in any meaningful way in months! Oh, and I can use the throttle to modulate how much regen braking is going on. I have it start at 50% braking and can crank it to 100% with the throttle as needed. It seriously is the best of both worlds! I love this motor!
An ideal motor, which no one makes, would be geared (5:1 planetary drive as is typical) with a one-direction freewheel passive clutch, as is typical, but also an internal TWO-WAY clutch which is activated electronically to brake, go backward, and to "~lock" the motor when parked so someone who cuts your bike lock can't easily ride the ebike away (and the typical ebike weight makes it harder to carry away of course, and they won't be able to roll it away on the rear wheel it it's a rear hub motor).
Just took a look at that GMAC. Very nice unit. Definitely gonna consider it. Thanks!
@@wearemilesfromnowhere4630 I've been eyeing the GMAC for awhile. I don't like that its geared (Plastic gears!) but at the same time that 5 to 1 gear ratio means that you get a lot more braking force and more energy converted into electricity compared to a DD motor. I also don't like that it uses a proprietary connector. And by don't like I mean, I *HATE* Grin Tech for all its proprietary BS.
Don't look too hard to change the planetary gears if they wear out though.
Their connector looks really clean and neat. I think they genuinely try to innovate, I've never seen this "proprietary" side you speak of. Their stuff is made to be compatible with other stuff.
Not to speak of that you are not dependent on DNP freehubs anymore with the GMAC.
casey b, Grin takes pride in not being proprietary as ebike manufacturers do not. The non-proprietary connector they are trying to make more standard is of superior quality to the other connectors used for connecting battery to charger. The GMAC system can be placed on a high quality frame and components and switched out if/when desired to any other bike whereas manufactured ebikes come with proprietary components that are of lesser quality to keep cost down and can result in a total throw away bike in typically 5 years.
there is a plus about regen brakes that was not covered: it may not contribute much to the recharge cycle BUT it extends the lifespan of your brake pads.
+1 On a heavy bike the pads become a real issue, I was burning thru mine every 3 months. I have a Regen bike now for more than a year and the pads are almost new. I only use the pad for emergency breaking so some rides they don't get touched at all. I ride in the rain alot and the smoothness of regen breaking is also very helpful, as well as it doesn't get affected by the rain except for when the tire slips. On the minus side i do live on top of a very steep hill so i do experience the random cutoff of regen break while going down the hill, its a little annoying but when you know its going to happen its easy to adjust.
Exactly, Got an old Bionx, just run with the system on because of the regen brake, even if I dont plan to use the electrical power. I use the bike to get to work, and I have a long slope to climb (about 2km) in the morning, so in the afternoon, the regen is very handy, the normal break would overheat rapidly.
@@madnut666 Great, what kind of regen bike do you have, year, model, etc? thanks
@@airlui Great, how old is your used Bionx that you had good luck with it? Had to replace any components yet? I'm wondering what fails first, or most often, or requires most maintenance, thanks.
@@arlenekufchock1394 mine is Custom built, Mxus hub motor on a qulbix frame. Only maintenance i had to do is from dropping the bike.
Best thing about regen braking is the reduced wear on your brake pads.
Yes, and it's an extremely reliable brake. Not subject to accidental grease on a disc rotor or to wet weather. A light squeeze & you get (anti-lock) breaking. Unfortunately they don't brake much below 10MPH. I really don't care much whether it recharges the battery that little bit.
@LECTURE NOTES BY ASSOC PROF IR OTHMAN AHMAD The gain isn't worth the money spent.
This has been a key argument in considering some regen capable hub motor for my travel bike. I'm carrying 200+kg system weight and get tired on mountain passes. Then when going down for 5km I really regret wasting all that kinetic energy and literally have to stop to cool down my (rim) brakes, not ideal I know.
What convinced me to not pursue this idea is to do with the fact that going up a mountain pass (even when using the most efficient set-up like in a 16 inch trailer wheel) the motor and battery will be quiet hot when reaching the top, so putting in 8+Amps of regen downhill is not such a great idea either.
I'm now dreaming of solar (love what the SunTrip guys are doing) and thinking of buying one of those running parachutes for the downhill : )
@@velotill if the motor/battery is ran within its rated current, heat will not be an issue.
This
Using a heavily weighted cargo bike with regen breaking has saved many many sets of brakes.
The best part of regen is that it can be used for ABS on the back wheel, it stops it locking up when leaning on the front brake, this stops the back end of the bike skipping side to side and trying to overtake the front wheel. i only use the front brake now unless im pulling a heavy trailer. since the regen force is more than enough for the back when normally using the front brake.
next benefit is for pacing down hill without cooking the brakes it works even better with a heavy trailer.
the only reason I have regen is to extend the life of my brakes
My favourite thing about regenerative braking on my electric scooter is controlling speed with the throttle and not touching the brakes.
Nice video. I have an ebike touring company. I have 8 Bionx 500D (NORCO frame). In addition to 6 Specialized Comos. The regen mode on these bikes is fantastic. My routes are very hilly and I have had customers who have returned from an 18 mile tour with the battery fully charged!!! Very efficient. Bottom line is that because motor efficiency and range are such that it isn't needed. Not sure what you are talking about regarding coasting on my Bionx ebikes, I have in shape riders who ride without assist, turning the motor off. I haven't tried any other regen ebikes so I have nothing to compare my experience with. Anyway, this is my experience with over 3,000 riders on tours with the ebikes I have.
Yeah, this whole video feels super weird.
can you provide more details about it. because my research goes around Foot Bicycle with Energy Recovery
Cool part about regen braking is braking part, not regen. In very powerfull e-bikes it open posibility to make real abs-brakes. It is a lot easier to make driver that brakes with the motor itself than with some wierd, complicated contraption involving actual brakes.
Regen braking on human-powered vehicles is, and will remain, a controversial subject. I personally think it's a great idea on tadpole-style recumbent e-trikes and cargo e-bikes, not because it helps recover power - though in those more mass-intensive applications it does make more sense - but because it helps you save money on brake pads in the long run.
I can agree on regen giving little on flat roads, but where I live there is more up/down than flat. Would be nice to save breaks and energy going down.
I have a slightly different idea for regenerative/generative braking, that means Not just generating when braking, but also charge the battery by pealing as much a rider wants or can. that way if you running out of charge on the battery then you can charge the battery by pedaling for some times and then use the energy when you are tired, that way a good physical exercise for the rider and saving time on the hills! Can you understand what I trying to say here? So, in order to do that I would put the trigger on the OFF position of the thumb control or twist control line, so when you are NOT give power AT ALL you have an option to pedal on low gears to ride and charge at the same time, and a switch to turn charging on or off completely... so that way if the forward resistance when charging will be gone when you want to JUST ride pedaling. Makes sense? This way has another advantage that you can charge the batteries a lot even fully... if you give enough pedaling and RPM to the wheels.
Thanks, good video.
Just a couple of points, about my experience of 6 years and 30,000 km with a Kalkhoff with Albert Xion hub direct drive motor and rege in braking:
1) I do not perceive any friction if costing,
2) and something very important: practically, I do not spend brake pads, no brake maintenance. Another important point regarding the central motor, is that in hub motor's, the chain suffers less (risk of breakage, and you can continue your journey by motor w/o pedals...), and the chain has a 3 times more life.
Thanks & Regards 👍
Did I overhear it or didn't you mention saving breakpads? that d be the biggest advantage for regenbraking in my book.
You missed out on the point that Regen also saves on brake pads! Also the savings can far exceed 10% if you regularly go on a route that has a down hill and uphill where you need to slow down for safety on the down hill and the regen can not only help you do that without wasting brake pads but save that downhill energy for when you go up hill again. Lastly if you want to turn your bike into a dual renewable energy wind turbine you can only do it with regen braking by turning the bike upside down then adding in the wind blades into the wheel spokes section and then engaging the brakes slightly to recharge your battery with wind power.
You could possibly add regenerative braking with additional circuitry that regulates the voltage. And to deal with the rather high spikes of current, a supercapacitor bank could be used to deal with the sudden amounts of current. While then the power returns more slowly back to the battery
I typically get over thirty percent regen but my last ride was 55.5%. I rode over 20 miles and returned home with more in the battery than I left home with. Plus it does save the brakes.
Just getting into ebikes and have learned a lot from watching your videos. Watching your older videos is very informative. Thank you for contribution to ebikes.
Thanks, I'm glad you have found my videos helpful!
I have a high power ebike (2kW). Can go pretty fast. For me, regen braking is a must! I don't even care about the "Regen" part. The real reason I use it is for Braking power. It's a safety feature for me. It helps a lot when braking from 40mph, and riding alongside traffic. Not sure about this, but I would say the motor does more than 50% of the braking overall. Plus, it is instantaneous. The moment you touch the brake lever, all that braking power kicks in.
Yes.. thats the best reason why those with more powerful bikes prefer them.. its more safe.. and also saves your break pads.
I'm about to start on a similar build. What is your setup? Have you noticed any range dip from charging due to regen?
@@IanLofgren My setup is a rear hub motor. 60v 45A Controller. The regen braking adds up to maybe 5%-10% range.
Absolutely I have a 8000w bike and for very steep donwhills it's a MUST
Well those arent ebikes really, they are mopeds. And nobody with half a brain would go down the hill in moped or any other motorised vehicle in neutral using only brakes to slow down. ICE uses its compression to maintain safe speed, your electric moped regen of course etc... especially on those Montenegran mountains and hills ☺.
This vidjeo however is about ebikes, and we all know the difference between ebike and moped, right?
Dont get me wrong, I am all for it, european 250w is a joke I do more than that on my bike and I can maintain more than 25kmh on flat ground, but 8kw will never be ebike.
Pedaling vs resistance is where the problem is for those of us that care about pedaling but want regen for speed control on mountain runs.
I was actually searching youtube for “ebikes with regenerative braking” when your video was listed as one of the search results.
my interest in regenerative braking is not for how much energy i can store into the battery through the electronic/regenerative braking system, but rather i prefer both the feel of regenerative braking, and i like that regenerative braking greatly extends my brake pads lifespan, exponentially (many times the original lifespan)
when i reached out to several different ebike companies asking if they offer any of their model ebikes, with regenerative braking, they all said the same thing, “this is the number one request we get from customers and ebike shoppers(people in the market for a new ebike)
i have several scooters with regenerative braking (dualtron storm, dualtron thunder, and many more) all of which coast very well, when not accelerating, and not braking.
i am considering installing the motor controller and all related electronics (and motor as well, if needed) from one of my scooters (equipped with regenerative braking) and installing this into my ebike.
this is an experiment, and i enjoy very much, learning from experimentation.
my 2012 toyota hybrid has regenerative braking as well as the traditional braking system with friction brakes. i always employ/engage and maximize the electronic regenerative braking system which permit me to only change my brakes once, in six years, compared to once or twice each year with my previous automobile, which was not equipped with electronic regenerative braking (same miles/distance driven with each automobile)
its also exciting to think of how engineers practicing the moto “there is always another way” shall continue to develop and solve this challenge of reducing drag to electric motors/generators, and maximizing efficiency of motors/generators.
great video!
great work!
thank you!
I agree with you on regenerative braking. The only reason I would see a practical use would be bike touring. You also have to think about regenerative braking placing extra stress on the bike frame when implemented. Another positive issue with regenerative braking is most systems have a safety That does not allow you to charge your battery when it is above 75% so you do not have to worry about overcharging your battery. I get much more efficient charging by placing 2 flexible 40W solar panels, one on my front fender and one on the back fender. This way I get a much less of an increase in wind resistance. I live in Arizona so I get a great constant trickle charge through a voltage regulated buck converter to my batteries. I get an estimated 7 to 10% range increase depending on the usable sunlight. I did try regenerative braking on my front motor with an updated voltage controller and a second battery, but I really never noticed an improvement In battery storage, I think that was more related to the environment I ride in having very few downhill routes. Anyway I like your DIY battery Book, Thanks for the video.
I'll take smooth coasting over regenerative braking.
I do energy efficiency as a (deep / $$$) hobby. Coasting wins out massively over any another techniques that I've tested over the years, this goes for all vehicles! Just coast to your stop if you can. The only place it may help would be in massive hills / mountains 24/7
Agreed. On my zero motorcycle regen more or less adds nothing. Much more efficient to coast with the regen set to 0.
@@RW1LD The problem with hypermiling is that it only helps the moron practicing it and overall actually costs far more energy and traffic tieups. If there were no other people and no other vehicles then you might be able to save energy. In the real world, for every litre of fuel you "save", you cost everybody around you 10 litres of wasted fuel. In order for traffic to move efficiently, everybody must moderately accelerate to and decelerate from the speed limit. Traffic lights are programmed with that assumption, and when you prevent other people from driving reasonably you screw up the flow of traffic and cause traffic to knot up in abnormal ways and get caught by red lights instead of going right through green ones. Meaning they are forced to stop and go when they would have been able to continue at a much more efficient steady state. Even if you ignore traffic light programming, people who don't accelerate or decelerate normally or stay at a constant speed at the speed limit still impede the smooth flow of traffic and massively reduce everybody else's efficiency. The rules of hypermiling and the rules of mass traffic efficiency are polar opposites. What is good for a single vehicle is very, *VERY* bad for a large system with many entities in close proximity.
As for coasting versus regenerative braking, in theory coasting is more efficient but in reality regenerative braking is more efficient and practical for anything larger than a bicycle. If all roads were absolutely flat and straight and there were no intersections or traffic controls then coasting would have an edge, but since that's far from the case coasting doesn't actually win in the real world. The fact is that any time you slow down or stop you have to accelerate, and coasting can't store energy, it only conserves it. Because regenerative braking stores energy, a large part of your acceleration is "free", whereas if you coasted down 100% of the accelerate is at full energy cost. Coasting loses.
I've done a lot of testing myself, and the claims hypermilers make are outright lies. The only way to get the results they claim is to exercise massive confirmation bias and deliberately ignore a huge number of factors, and fib a bit on top of that. Weather, terrain, traffic and other factors have a far greater effect.
Coasting is not an alternative...
You do it on the flat where you wouldn't gain anything with Regen braking.
Then on descents you simply pull your brakes and Regen kicks in...
So you can have (like me) the best of both worlds 😎
Daniele G The point is the energy you gain with regen, especially on a light vehicle like a bicycle or motorcycle, is not as efficient as freewheeling that distance. As an example, on my zero if I have regen on at a decent level going down a moderate hill I will at some point have to add throttle to maintain my speed down the hill, thereby using the energy I gained and then some just to maintain speed. Same with on the flat as you point out. Engaging regen only when the brakes are on is the most efficient, which is how my zero is set up. With my car I don’t have that choice or I would do so.
My take on this question - based on something I read probably 15 years ago - is: regenerative braking adds a lot of complication. If you want more range, get a second battery.
This kind of advice doesn't work for a car, because the heaviest thing in an electric car is the battery. The heaviest thing on an electric bike ... is the rider.
but when you consider replacing your brake pads every few days if you do a lot of downhill and pulling loads regen is great for.
well said . i Loved my old Bionx with regen braking but more for braking than powering the batt , and that was before disc brakes were as popular .
Being in the EV (car) you did a great explanation and above all, you pin point the difference between each system. Thanks
We just moved house to a more mountainous area with steep hills to climb and decend. I just tried my new GMAC (locked clutch, geared) motor and Grin controller with regen, yes both cost quite a bit to import, complicated to set up, but the regen seems to work very well here, hardly any battery voltage drop when I go to the shops a few km away, nice to have another form of braking to take the stress off my existing brakes too, such steep hills here.
Great explanation thanks. Mountain bike tours are 2-3 hours up and 1 hour down hill and this will eat up brakes quickly which is quite some costs. So for mountain bikes I still believe even a few km more will be of advantage. Sometimes I even have to charge the battery during a longer MTB tour and if this could be bridged by regen braking would be cool.
Regen is pretty cool, and as an added benefit; stronger legs from fighting the friction!
Grin Technologies has good options for regen diy equipment ... Maybe do a review on the geared regen hub kit?
What about having dynamos on the wheels, kind of the style we used to have to get lights on old bicycles?
So, when you press the "regenerative brake" lever, the dynamo(s) is connected to the wheel(s) and slows the bike down. Anyone who tried riding in the dark with an old dynamo light knows that it slows you down quite a bit. Ramp it up to multiple (and/or larger) dynamos on back and front wheel and voila: Regenerative braking without needing to change the drive train at all.
And bonus is you save wear on your mechanical brakes.
People: we want regen brakes! Companies: no, you don't. People: no, we want it. Companies: no, you don't, look at this video. People: we don't care, we want it anyway!
I've used a few ebike motors in regen for kite turbine projects.
A normal ebike project regen can work well for hilly areas.
While regen isn't worth it on standard bikes, on recumbent bikes with a fairing it changes everything.
Those bikes have a big braking problem and regen solves that by adding a lot more braking power and the ability of continuous braking downhill without brake overheating
Can't the clutch engage as soon as the brakes are applied, thus having the magnets go past the coil? That'd allow for regenerative braking in a geared motor.
Mechanical complexity and almost worthless. Just ditch the clutch and always stay engaged.
Just buy a direct drive hub. You can have two motors. Direct drive hub will be stronger. It’s works like this? Picture your descending down the steep grade with the load on your cargo bike. Now the grade is 16% a 5 minute drive down hill. The direct drive hub is the first choice because of efficiency! So your going down hill pulling the cargo trailer too. Your doing to set your regenerate braking to your desired speed. Now it’s like cruise control it’s will never over speed unless you activate your brake lever’s or pedal to change the cadence this will kill the regenerate braking function. Regenerate (diamagnetic braking) charging max battery too down hill auto pilot cruise control. Nice,nice! 2018 Rad Wagon Cargo. Mods-80 amp controller with color display 5 batteries totaling 80amp/48volt. I have two mid drive bikes,but the cargo is my favorite.
They should have some sort of flywheel or coil spring system to store the energy away from the battery and then either charge the battery or use it to propel you when you restart your ride ....
That is overly complicated. Just use a bigger battery if you have energy storage issues.
It's a good idea but the weight is a problem.
@@andrewjames7923 Why is weight a problem?
@@andrewjames7923
That can be addressed with an alloy/ carbon fibre flywheel type of configuration
Regen braking might be good if you live with steep and long hills, but where I live I'm on the brakes less than 1% of the time. The loss in forward efficiency ain't worth it.
And around where I live the terrain is like a raisin. A lot of elevation changes that are relatively steep and a lot of energy wasted downhill on braking. I definitely would benefit from regenerative braking.
If you have an electric drivetrain, you have regen. It's literally free and you might as well use it to save wear on your friction brakes.
The cons outway the pros for sure. You opened up my eyes. Thank you.
What cons? I feel like you may have been blinded.
It's funny how many people think their subjective experience and confirmation bias outweigh science.
Fact: regen is better than coasting. Getting energy back is better than not using any energy.
It is usually easy to "prove" a false point by carefully picking a scenario that avoids the weaknesses in your argument, especially if you pick a snapshot of a certain state or short time and carefully avoid looking at the entire system and the overall, long-term effects.
It is an indisputable fact that regenerative braking has a positive effect over time, regardless of the vehicle. The questions Micah is addressing are how much benefit is there, and is it worth the development and expense? The answers for casual bike riders happen to be "not a lot" and "probably not". You probably don't ever run your battery all the way down on a single ride and have easy access to charging whenever you need it. But for some people and some situations it would be worth it. Specifically, people riding long distances in extremely hilly terrain would see a significant increase in range with regeneration, and keeping the battery at a higher state of charge gives you more torque to get up subsequent hills.
Yeah, exactly like Seattle where regenerative breaking is an excellent advantage. It dramatically saves brakes and decreases the frequency of charging.
flying down a hill with my bike on fire lol imagine , be safe don't overcharge
Just keep it under 88 mph, or the flux capacitor will discharge...and don't cross the streams...
M G Ghost Rider comes to mind! 🤪
The payoff is not worth the expense or tradeoff in rolling resistance. My Prius uses regenerative braking and the gain is minimal.
Yep, the expense is not worth the return. If you were half of an engineer you would know this. Sorry bro not sub from me.
@@Singletracklover If you were half of an engineer you would know that for cars regenerative braking makes a huge difference. It's not just the efficiency, it's also the massive reduction in wear and maintenance of things like brakes. Only people with no actual knowledge or competence think there's not a compelling case for regenerative braking in EVs. Fact: getting energy back is better than just not using energy. It's obvious and not debatable.
But we're talking about bicycles on this channel and the gains are less noticeable because physics.
Micah, thanks for the details. To close the loop, what does the regen cost over a standard set up? If the bike without cost $1,000 would the regen option add $250 to make it $1,250 or is it more?
If you're already looking at building an ebike with a direct-drive hub motor, simple on/off regen is "free" or close to it. It's a feature of the controller that adds no or next to no manufacturing cost to the controller itself - you just have to pick a motor controller with regen as an advertised feature. As mentioned in Micah's video, you do want a battery with a BMS that can safely handle the regen charging current coming in from the discharge port, but two of the most reputable battery vendors for DIY setups either build their packs ready for regen by default (EM3ev), or will add that capability for a small upcharge if you ask for it (UnitPackPower).
If you were looking at building a bike with a different motor type (a geared hub motor or a mid-drive) but you've weighed your options and decided that you want regen, than you'll have to compare the cost of a direct-drive hub motor and a regen-capable controller against the cost of the system you were previously looking at. Compared to most geared hubs and mid-drives, you'll often find a direct-drive hub motor setup to be *cheaper* overall.
If you are looking at taking an existing ebike and adding regen to it, once you're done the bike will need a direct-drive motor (they start at around $100 but the price can go way up from there if you're looking for something more fancy) and a regen-capable controller (starting at around $50 for a halfway decent controller with on/off regen, all the way up to $300+ for a fancy controller with smooth variable regen). So, depending on what the existing ebike needs to make it regen-capable, and what sort of functionality you're after, anywhere from $50 (if all you needed was a new controller) all the way up to $???.
Of course, each of the main three types of motor system (direct-drive hub, geared hub, and mid-drive) have their strengths and weaknesses relative to each other, and regen is just one of the capabilities that you want to weigh when deciding which type of motor system is right for your needs. But that's an entirely separate discussion.
You're asking the right questions. The video dances around the facts and figures.
3:24 not only have bicycles less mass than cars, they also do a lot less breaking due to their lower max speed. e.g. on roads with some turns that need you to slow down to lets say 30 mph (~50 kmph) a car and a motorbike have to break (really fast ones even harder) but a bicycle doesn't. riding a bicycle is more continuous than a car or motorbike. so fewer breaking less hard with less mass on less distance equals no need for regenerative breaking because the costs/disadvantages outweigh the benefits. it just sounds good. same for lower speed scooters.
EDIT: no, i don't need one of your books. thanks. :)
When you go uphill, slowly, the vast majority of power goes into moving up the weight, not certainly drag. When going downhill, with a good regenerative system, you can probably recover 50% of the energy put into the hill climb. That means that if the conditions are good (e.g. battery at average charge, slow speed, good breaking power) and for example you used a 50% assistance you can literally get back 100% of the range.
I save a $100 per month because of my regenerative braking on my front tire. I burn through brake pads like crazy as I'm hauling a massive trailer. Also, my bike has a bbshd mid-drive for the rear.
I get asked this question about regenerative braking all the time too!
i have it, and love it, keeps my brakes from wearing and produces energie, it does wear out the tire a bit more.
my bike is a custom build 1500w 48v 20ah bike, it has no bms, so thats not a problem. using 4 multistar 6s 10ah batterys 2s2p range is about 40 to 50 km, i live in the netherlands so most roads a flat, not a chance for overcharging with regen here.
Regen works good for electric cars not bikes..this is known for at least 5 years..
@@theowink Regen braking works amazing for bicycles. Why would you want to wear out your friction brakes when you get regen braking for free with any electric motor?
Bicycles are always slowing down for obstacles on shared paths and road crossings, regen is king.
difflocktwo maybe 1% use regen for bikes ..if it was so good 100% of manufacturers use it on 🚲 bikes .
@@theowink Would you agree that bicycle manufacturers spend a lot of effort marketing aerodynamic road frames? Or "fast" racing bikes? Or aero wheels?
However the upright cycling position is fundamentally flawed. Yet this is the main type of bicycle we see advertised.
How about exposed transmissions? Any machine builder would be insane to have an exposed mechanical transmission, yet on bicycles this is the norm.
Manufacturers do a lot of stupid things at scale, don't get me started on lighting. We already touched on terrible environmental shielding.
All good points. Regen as a feature has its benefits and its tradeoffs, and because of those tradeoffs, it's definitely not a good fit for everyone.
I use regen as my primary brake, but mainly because of how much it reduces the wear & tear on my disc brakes. I've seen upwards of 20% energy recapture at times (if I cherry pick from my segments out in the mountains), but day to day it's more in the 2-4% range - definitely not the selling point. But for a high-mileage rider with a heavy bike and cargo, being able to reduce my brake maintenance to nearly nothing isn't a small thing.
I had regen braking on rad city but returned it bc there was just too much drag when the motor wasn’t engaged. Also once you reach the top speed of the motor, pedaling faster becomes almost impossible.
Why didn't you apply throttle to overcome the drag? The low top speed thing of the motor though, that needs a faster motor.
If I hook two 10 36 350 together in parallel. Will it double the storage capacity. Won't this help my ebike go further without having to charge my battery??
My bike battery is 48 volt / 14Ah it is for the M2S pro 750. 750 watt rear motor, 26" frame 9 gears, 26 x 4" tires. The battery will last a long time with conservative riding and this bike is flat out a blast. Keep these bikes clean and learn how to change the rear tire correctly , it's really not that hard.
The best thing about regenerative breaks is not the amount of power you get back from using them It's the fact that you have breaks that never wear out.
You need an extra circuit containing some 3000 Farad super capacitors and an additional Back EMF Filtering circuit to handle regenerative charging properly. However, it may be beneficial while climbing down mountains.
I've been riding bicycles for 51 years and working on regular bicycles for 51 years. And I remember I had a light on my bicycle with a generator that runs on the tire and why could that not be used for something like this to charge your battery I cannot believe with the technology we have there is nothing but when somebody finds something and they will it's going to be one rich person. He seems like one of the more educated ebike instructors or you seem like one if you ever read this. I wish I could sell these because I believe in e bikes this bike can save my life I got the ecotric hammer
There's another way. Instead of dumping charge into a full battery, a variable resistance / short circuit will make the best abs brake system. With hub direct drive motors, if there's no load on the coils, there's almost no resistance physically.
Another issue comparing ebikes to electric cars for regenerative braking is that ebikes simply do not have the same mass as a car to start with. So the the regenerative brake becomes more akin to an anchor than a brake, as it will cause the ebike to come to a full stop not merely to slow down, as with a much more massive car, on even a steep decent.
So, if you live on flat roads and no stop signs for a 10-mile trip then regen is pretty much useless. Also, if the bike has no free wheel in the above scenario does it use more energy. You said it's harder to pedal direct drive motors because the magnets have drag resistance but do the magnets cause drag when the motor is on, which means you would use more battery power than a non-permanent magnet motor.
If you need that extra 5% of range, just pedal more yourself, slow down and take a bit more time or take an extra battery with you ;-)
I think you are the best youtuber for learning things, Thanks for teaching me alot. I want to add a light I got that it is the size of a car blinker or truck it's a small retangle yellow light.
Also, in relation to mid mounted motors, you would have to have a transmission that would allow the chain to pull from the rear (sort of like the old back-peddle coaster brakes) derailleur changers wouldn't allow this, the reach mechanism would be pulled forward.
Makes sense, cost, lack of benefit, rolling resistance. You pretty much covered it. But as others have mentioned, the engine braking could provide beneficial in other ways without much regen return. Still, probably better off just to get a dedicated ebike or electric scooter that has the system as that would be a full-time system providing higher benefit wouldn't it?
Thank you for the information and knowledge on regenerate braking. I purchased a 2018 Rad Wagon Cargo Bike and very familiar with the regenerate braking so what I did. I online spoke to the tech at Electric Bike World. Order the aftermarket fully integrated display and controller 35 amp. The display fully programmable. The battery a biggie 48v/😊80amps= 5 batteries in total. You can set the regenerate braking
People overly focus on range....range was really the least thing I cared about regenerative braking. It was really nice to have and saved on brake pads....say you're going down a very long and steep hill and need/want to keep your speed reasonable. Regenerative braking could maintain a good low speed without heating up my brake rotors and wearing out my pads (I'm in a hilly area, so on my geared motor bike, with lots of hills and stop signs+lights) I'm using my brakes a lot...I'd still use regen if it gave no extra range.
The cost isn't that high in my opinion....I had a home made build a while back. My controller was $45, could do 45 amps, 72 volts, AND had regen....not much of an extra cost there....but I'll admit I wasn't running the most sophisticated build (no BMS, was running hobbykingLipo packs with volt meter/alarms attached).
I have a Rad City which has a direct drive motor w/ regenerative braking. You did not mention it is completely silent which I like and Rad claims very reliable. I agree the rolling resistance is a negative but the bike is well built for commuting. I have 1300 miles on mine...so much fun to ride!
Thanks for the explanation, it's really clear, I was wondering for long time why it's not the case, I hope the technology gets better sooner and make regenerative power worthwhile for e bikes, it feels bad to lose the energy as heat
As a lazy old biker, a possible 5% energy return ain't worth the added drag.
The added drag is way less than the return, making the return absolutely worth it. Also saving on friction brake maintenance is huge.
bird: HEY BRO CAN YOU KEEP IT DOWN MY KIDS SLEEPING
The hub motor also doesn’t put its force through the gears and chain thereby reducing wear and tear.
Life is too short to worry about regen. Just ride!
Great, clear explanation of regenerative braking in Ebikes. Thanks.
Bird break stole the show. Very informative video.
when driving down hills it would help keep the speed low
My 2013 folding electric dahon used to have regen braking and costed 2.2k (dollars), have a nice day 😊
I would think that it could be done electrically. Maybe a momentary switch in the brake handle that engages the regin breaking when the handle the depressed slightly but is otherwise disengaged this would allow you to regerate some of the lost power while coasting, especially down hill but when disengaged has no more resistance than a regular bike wheel. I think this could be done with a manual clutch as well provided you could spin the stator and the magnets separately. Might require a little more hardware to make it happen but it's a thought.
Just as an aside, I drive a Lexus RX hybrid that uses regen braking (identical to a Prius drivetrain, just much larger). The brakes are designed so that the first 10% of pedal movement goes into regen, and then the regular friction pads are gradually brought in as more pressure is applied. I get mileage in the high-20's; I would guess that regen accounts for maybe 5 percent of that mileage, at most.
One interesting side note: as the video discusses, what happens if the battery is already full and you apply regen? First, the battery in a Toyota/Lexus hybrid is kept at roughly 80% to allow for some regen. But if there is more than what is healthy for the batteries, the computer actually bleeds off excess kinetic energy by spinning the internal combustion engine with fuel turned off and throttle closed, making the engine a giant vacuum pump, which sucks up a lot of energy.
The Toyota hybrid system is literally nothing more than a beefy planetary gearset. Brilliant design.
I love regen breaking not only because of the pads but because few times save my life make me stop faster avoiding accident's...
At 1:40 you said they use a centrifugal clutch. Wouldn't that keep the motor connected to the wheel as long as RPM is above the threshhold value, like on a scooter? If an ebike only works one way it seems more likely that they would have a sprag clutch or freewheel clutch (that only engages one way).
It would be handy to have a lockable sprag clutch with an extra lever on the handlebars to trigger it. Then you could have the best of both worlds, freewheeling and regenerative braking based on scenario. Or maybe achieve it with a motor using electromagnets rather than permanent magnets, so you could turn off the magnetic resistance by removing power from the field windings.
Better to pedal easily when out of battery than saving a few % on reg breaking and eventually deplete the batt
You gain more with regen in a typical city ride cycle than you lose with motor drag. This means you always have more than enough energy to overcome motor drag.
Also you don't just run out of battery. As you notice your levels dropping you ride slower and extend the range of your battery.
difflocktwo yep you don’t... but when you do... you need to be able to use the pedal right?
@@karliniego Electric cars and motorcycles don't have pedals... It might be easier to carry a fast charger and get a quick boost. Fast chargers are not common in ebikes though.
I once had to transport a old lead acid electric motorcycle. It didn't have pedals and weighed 100+ kg.
I ran up hill with it, giving a bit of throttle to help me out, and then coasted down hill. I did 50 km like this. At the end I had used very little battery energy and could have probably done less running.
Great video but you didn't mention about saving on brake pads when using regenerative brakes.
The video avoided many pros, on purpose probably. The presenter isn't dumb.
there is one point to be made that I have not seen in the comments: the very different "feel" between a direct drive (gearless) motor and the more widely used geared hub motor.
I have both....yes, the power you get back from regen is negligible for sure....and the typical geared motor has TWICE the torque of direct drive (better acceleration)....
So why would somebody want/like/love a direct drive bike??? It is SO much quieter than a geared hub motor...you can't hear it. The "cogging" is NOT a problem while riding because on my bike the power is always on even if it's only on "1" PAS (this is a bike that weighs over 60 pounds...why would you want to pedal it on "0" PAS, especially after paying all the extra money to get an electric bike?) Power delivery is so much smoother than a geared hub motor, no jerkiness at all when the motor comes on (less torque, remember?). A motor with ONE moving part, as opposed to the many moving parts in a geared hub motor, is essentially and by definition more efficient and that will translate into greater range and greater longevity. I can't attest to the higher longevity as I only have 1200 kms on the direct drive...but I can certainly attest to the greater range aspect.
The "perfect bike" would have the torque of a geared hub motor and the smooth "feel" and quiet operation of the direct drive...but "you can't have everything...where would you put it"!
Okay, no regen braking for bicycles, because they are only bicycles, simple and cheap - yes, even when they are complicated and expensive. The reason bicycles don't do regen braking is the cheap battery that can not take the power. Mine charges at only 80W for several hours. For regen, it needs to be able to fast charge in well under 1 hour without getting overheated and damaged. Fast charging would also allow long trips.
For real electric vehicles, regen braking is a must, it's fun, and very useful. Cars like the BMW i3 can do "one pedal driving" with only the "gas" pedal, it's simply great, kind of a "god mode", or like a steering wheel for speed, which goes in both directions, and straight, as you wish. If you lift your right foot, the car is slowed down with regen braking. In some EV models, it even brings the car to a standstill in front of a red light. No need to use the friction brake pedal at all, unless in emergency situations, or when going very fast, or down steep slopes.
From hill I going on bike 45 kmph. But I want go 25 kmph and charge battery and save brakes. But without regenerative braking I can not do that...
there has to be a way to increase the percent breaking can regen. like gear up the moter so that it spins at super high RPM wen u use the breaks so that u stop faster and regen allot more. aswell as by having a capacitor bank to collect the break regen instead of dumping it to the battery.
and fir the free wheel costing all u need is a manual clutch
Regenerative braking is maybe worthwhile if living in a hilly area.
If you live in Kansas...then probably not.
well said! I love the idea of regen for larger EVs but it isn't efficient enough yet for most standard eBikes.
I have both an 2000 Watt fast electric bike with a direct drive motor and regen braking and a 250 Watt Pedelec bike with a geared motor without regen braking. The fast one brings back about 5%, because I love going downhills on roads at 60 km/h. If I would regen brake to 30 km/h, the benefit would be great. And in 5000 km, I haven't changed the braking pads.
But:
The 2000 Watt motor weights 8 kg, so the rear wheel is so heavy, it bumps heavily on bad roads. The 250 Watt geared motor only weights 2.7 kg, so nearly the same as a normal axle, you can drive like a normal bike. The consumption on the same speed (27 km/h) isabout 8 Wh/km with the direct drive an 2 Wh/km with the geared motor. So whats better? Both bikes are big fun, I wouldn't change!
I often get this question from strangers. I learned so much more about thanks to this video that I can give better answers than "Because it's stupid, leave me alone."
Thanks for the content Micah. I want the option of pedaling the bike with no resistance so I've never seriously considered regenerative braking. Nice to see the full picture anyway.
I've got a bionx motor. At the end of long trips, I pray every time that the battery not die. I am also not comfortable with high currents flowing to the battery. My vote also for smooth coasting.
The smoothest coasting is when you use a little bit of power to overcome and friction in your system. Then you use regen braking to capture energy which you use to power your wheel.
You can make one....use a step up rectifier......and a switch that disconnects from controller power and into the rectifier.....this will cause the cogging effect causing the bike to slow down and this creates energy to the batteries....I've done this before......it works .....the rectifier stabalizes the input and gives a set output current .....just be careful since the wheels are cogging make sure u install good torque arms to hold that wheel in place .....
Well output voltage my bad.....so let's say the wheel gives 6-12 volts while spinning down a hill then the rectifier takes whatever input voltage it gets and gives a standard output voltage let's say 48 or whatever u need to charge ur bank
Regen is so important for heavy EVs like car, bus or truck! It saves the braking system and helps a lot.
I think even a motorcycle can use it. But for the bicycles I prefer something lighter and cheaper :D :D :D
Nothing cheaper than no mechanical drivetrain. With no mechanical drivetrain regen is free. So anything without regen capabilities would be more expensive.
While you are on this subject. Is there different quality of motors out there associated with different manufacturers. Also the same question for controllers?
What if dedicated regen hub on front wheel, front brake lever clutches engagement of the spinning magnets. Something like that would be able to coast free and regen trough battery charge input.
You're almost at the point of having built a motor then.
Great video! Really just good for a braking alternative. Def use heavy motor brake on scooters to slow down without actually using the disc brake
Very nice and concise explanation which answered the technical, economical issues. Thanks!
For me the biggest reason that mid-drives don’t have regenerative breaking is that the rear hub would need to be locked instead of freewheeling and the pedals would be constantly spinning if you were moving. Absolutely no coasting!
Shimano created the FFS (front freewheel system).
Interesting engineering perspectives on lithium battery charging hazards... screaming for vengeance down a long hill... batteries cooking off... fire spitting everywhere... Love this channel!
I was thinking that there could be a sort of pedal brake that would activate the regen to avoid the drag when coasting. But when it is only 5% I'd rather have a 5% larger battery than adding more complexity and things that can break. :)
What things are you adding that could break?
I have a question that can you say a [(thick tire or a thin tire is the best for all conditions)]in road and off-road
First: Loved this segment, ( love all so far), having perused a few comments..speaking of Changimg brake pads over batteries...seems regen just to get a little more life out of pads would be more costly both in terms of $ as well as labor.
Secondly...could you address the idea of wiring in ultraCapacitors? To augment battery ( life, range, speed, etc) looking forward to your thoughts