The Heart of Creation {Theory - Spoilers All}
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- Опубликовано: 16 авг 2017
- Welcome, welcome! Do you like tin foil? Perhaps you are curious about how Thedas is constructed? Perhaps you are just a fan of /u/Eravas? Then come and listen to what is known~
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This video does contain story spoilers for the Dragon Age games and other related media.
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Question? Video Ideas? Fan Theories?
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Игры
In terms of the timelines not matching up, in DA:O, in the Dalish origin you find an elven ruin with both human and elven artifacts, implying that they coexisted here, with an eluvian as well showing how ancient it is. This is in the Bracilian Forest farther south than Lake Calenhad. I think the timeline in the world of Thedas is meant to be as recordered by chantry scholars, but inaccurate as to the actual events. Its also worth mentioning the Skyhold, "the place where the sky was held back", is heavily implied to be where the dread wolf created the veil. Its location isn't far from Lake Calenhad and its also implied that castle has had both elven and human occupants.
It's also had some dwarven ones, if the statues in the lower levels are any sign.
Also I think it is very possible for the game developers to make mistakes regarding the time line for the sake of a good narrative.
I like this comment
@Luna Verret bot
@Harrison Fetters bot
"The blood of Dragons is the blood of the world" - Yavanna
Understand this and you will understand creation
marsuini Ooh, how mysterious!
I always thought that those Avvar stories were based on Elven stories. Maybe the two people once lived together, or maybe they just took the stories as their own. Considering the Avvar's connection to spirits it's not unlikely they've learned the stories through them.
Oh yeah, the Avvar augurs could have just... "seen" the events in the Fade. Well, their echoes, that is. Despite all Solas is, i believe his story about sleeping at Ostagar (and other locations) and seeing the echoes of the events there.
The Avvar mentioned could still be the Elves. Instead of Avvar being the name of a 'people', it could have been the name of a 'person'.
More likely different perspectives and legends based on the same events.
But originally there was only elves (at least on the surface) right? At the time where evanuris lived, which was before the veil, humans did not exist. Humans cannot have seen the feats of the evanuris. It's true that the avvar are close to spirits and may learn from them, but their version is a recount of a recount. It doesn't verify the elven lore as witnessing it from a different perspective would.
Edit: Well history isn't really that clear. What we know from the traditional timeline is that humans make contact with the elves, and they lose their immortality after that. But solas said immortality was lost when he created the veil, the elves afterward scrambled and the newly arrived humans took the advantage and conquered their empire.
Subsequently inspiring Chantry cannon since Andraste was Alamari and the newly formed Chantry would look for ideas from already established religions to explain the world around them, with a Andrastian coat of paint on it of course.
In Dragon Age 2, Flemeth (who turns out to be possessed by Mythal as revealed in Inquisistion) was also called Asha Belanar. This was what first popped into my mind when you mention the mountain Belanas.
Anna Gilliland Asha Belanar translates to "woman of many years" in elven so maybe they borrowed the word from the elves and it means "many years" or something along those lines like "eternity"
Just replaying Dragon Age: Witch Hunt right now. After starting the DLC you also quickly meet an elven woman in Flemeth's old hut who says she's looking for Asha Belanar on behalf of her keeper.
Cultures regularly borrow ideas from other or past religions. You can chart many real world religions like a genealogy, much is likely the same with the Avvar legends.
Unfortunately unlike the real world in Thedas it seems many different cultures had no religion of their own and have to various degrees garbled versions of elven history which is very sad and uninspired.
According to Solas, after seeing the deprivations of the Evanuris he banished them by creating the veil.
Wouldn't this mean that Solas is the "Maker?"
Further, we know that "Andraste" was called "Bride of the Maker." We know that she was a slave and came from Alamari lands. As the Elves had already begun to age, what are the odds of seeing Andraste being an earlier incarnation of Mythal?
Solas confirmed that his "Children" are hard to kill in DA:I.
With the humans stealing all the best parts of history for themselves, stealing a dead Elf maiden wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility.
I'm a fan of this theory too, with the caveat that Solas was probably still Dread Wolfing it up asleep, and not actually physically in Thedas.
it's heavily implied that Solas was Tyrdda Bright-Axe's "leaf-eared lover" and that she was "spirit's bride" and said leaf-eared lover talked to her with "dream-whispers" and eventually up and left her
but then the leaf-eared lover is referred to as a woman so it might've been Mythal instead lol
Interesting
I... actually really LOVE this theory. This is really good.
This is so interesting! As much as I want to see Dragon Age lore explained and expanded upon (much like the World of Warcraft Chronicles have done), I can't help but love the theories that piece all of these little tidbits of information. It's because of fans like Eravas and videos like yours that made me start playing through DA:I again to thoroughly read all the codex and soak up all that delicious lore.
In case you haven't seen this, someone was awesome enough to put together pdf files of all of the codices. --> www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/3wuxy1/spoilers_all_codex_entries_for_each_game_as_pdfs/
These theories are pure love. I played all of DA many times over (except the Keep one, that I palyed only once) and read all the codex entries in my 100% playthroughs of each game and still, there is so much I dont know or remember, it freaking blows my mind :D
I do think the pieces in this theory do point to something - the image of a "Golden City" may have originated from Andraste's time living with the Avvar.
Though my thoughts about timeline of this is that maybe the Avvar did take Elvhen stories and reword them for themselves. Maybe an older lost version spoke of Elves climbing the "mountain" - which may not have been a mountain in that version, but some other example of "divine" habitation. Maybe that story is a vague mythologised version of when the Fade was brought into existence and Elvhen petitioners could no longer appeal to their gods for aid, for reward for valor, etc. The Avvar absorbed the story and remade it according to their logic - mountains, acts of extreme effort and bravery, Avvar heros.
Thanks for explaining that from reddit, I had a hard time understanding it the way it was presented before.
The idea that the story is not originally Avaar is not very good contrary evidence. If Bioware is trying to make a "real" feeling world, it would only be natural for other cultures to steal stories completely (see: Gilgamesh).
Is Belenas the mountain the Tevinters climbed up (since they reached the Black City)? Or did the magisters steal this story as well? Or if it was them, why incriminate blood magic into it when it just involved hoofing it? Or perhaps I need to focus more to pay attention.
Thanks for the tin foil!
Quite possible, that Magister entered the City after the mountain was "raised into the sky" (possibly - just out of the "mortal" realm)
This is really interesting! And thank you for the great visual map, without it I would be kinda lost too 8'D In my mind these old Avvar (& Neromanian) stories are at least in their core based on the elvhen ones. Kinda like the Romans copied the Greeks. There are many similarities between the Evanuris and the gods/goddesses & animal symbolic that the Avvar incorporated in their tales. For example Korth the Mountain-Father can be Elgar'nan or the Titans, and the Lady of the Skies is Mythal ofc.
The tale of Sindri Sky-Breaker can be a version of Solas' way to godhood, the legend name Sky-Breaker is very telling ;) I theorized that the Ptarmigan (from the story how Korth lost his heart) is another symbol for Solas either winning the favor of the Evanuris or getting to that Titan-heart.
Something just clicked for me while watching this. If red lyrium predates the First Blight, then it's possible that was what the magisters used to enter the Golden City. It took a great deal of power to achieve this, & red lyrium is more potent than the regular stuff. However, it is a corrupted power source. If they brought enough to be able to leave the Golden City (or tear the Veil from that side of the Fade), then the corruption would spread & turn the city Black.
I welcome anyone who can either add to this or provide counter-points.
I think from listening to Corypheus' dialogue, the black city was already courupted when the magisters got there, and because of that they became blighted also. I tend towards the idea that the 'golden city' was Arlethan and it became blighted when the Evanuris killed a titan and created red lyrium. And this is why Solas created the veil because the red lyrium threatened to destroy the world.
Also because lyrium is a living thing it can become blighted, so I often wonder if the 'red lyrium idol' wasn't originally just a lyrium idol that became blighted after.
binging all your Dragon Age videos love this series so much its completely underrated
Very interesting. Certainly makes you think. Love your tin foil theories! Id love to see more
4 years late but it’s always important to remember that the avvar have a very close relationship with spirits. It’s always possible that they have gained access to knowledge unknown to the rest of thedas from these said Spirits only for the knowledge to become tainted and “avvar-ized” over time by oral tradition.
This could explain the tribes having knowledge of events they did not witness, and yet mighty avvar heroes being present in the story. Over time the avvar spiced up the lore with their own culture. Just an assumption obv but that’s that suspension of disbelief I hold towards their legends.
I kinda agree with some of this. I believe the golden city is / was the corrupted titan. Due to when you go into the titan, it’s believed that no one have gotten that far, but you do find darkspawn which would predate the first blight since the place was sealed up before the first blight. Second coriphius is covered in red lyrium. Also the Titans makes sound like music and lyrium veins also sound like music and the wardens and dark spawn listen to the call. And then there’s the heart of the titan and the golden city had something to do with a heart right?
What if one titan is the titan of life and the other the titan of death. The maker being the titan of life?
Just watched your video on Sera. With Solas asking Sera about the "color" of the sky, and the image in this video of the Fade being above Thedas as if it were the heavens. Just interesting
Great video as always.
Quite a shame that we don't even have a hint at who or what created the Golden/Black City.
But to be fair, if BioWare wants to stay true to their statement that they will not confirm if the Maker is real or not, any kind of information regarding the City is potentially damning.
Makes for amazing speculation material however.
Fun fact: a vars were ancient people who settled in Panonian base in Central Europe, and they are of unknown origin. Thy might be connected with slavs, Baltic, Germania or uralic people.
Thank you. This was great, keep up the good work 😀
Given that the Avvar have been taught so much by spirits, wouldnt it make sense for their legends to have originated through scenes the spirits showed them? Since what spirits portray isnt the objective truth of what happened but subjective impressions, it makes total sense that they would see the elven tales distorted and shown with human protagonists.
This is quite an interesting theory, I will have to ponder on it.
+Ghil Dirthhalen Keep in mind that in Jaws of Hakkon they heavily imply that the gods of the Avvar and other tribes are actually spirits , just like Hakkon which is a spirit that took the form of a dragon. Does this mean that if Korth created montains for a heart did he create the titans? And what does that mean for the period before the vei? as Solas implies that when the fade and the material world where one people and spirits where interchangable. Just some thoughts
The other side to the theory is to take a side where elves, humans, and Qunari are all three different forms of the same core culture. The story would be from a time before the human side left Thedas, and was retained when they returned during recorded history.
I dunno, after what we learn about Solas in Trespasser, I'm wondering if the Black City might be bits of Arlathan instead. Not like I have any proof for or against, it's just something I thought would be neat.
🤦It IS Arlathan
I think this contradicts what we learned in Trespasser. There was no need for lyrium to connect the mortal world and the fade because they were one and the same.
Sounds like the mountain is Sundermount and the avaar moved their story to lake calenhad to keep the origin point a secret
Here’s something to add to this theory...The Black/Golden city is either Arlathan or The prison where Fen’harel (aka solas) sealed the the forgotten ones
Belenas, is obviously a nod to the tower of babel story.
i believe if you look at our real life mythologies, you find borrowing others people's gods, remaking it for themselves, and then adding on to it happens all the time. so i dont exactly see the timeline really mattering so much. sure it started out that they were elven gods but over time they became human gods. (i mean that is litarally what happens in the jaws of hakkon. Ameridan was an elf mage and yet he became known as a human (and likely a warrior since he was a seeker) it also happened with tyrdda and her axe.
I think the void is a place where the titans live, hence its connection to lyrium. In The Descent, we visit a place called 'The Uncharted Abyss' that's explicitly separate from the Deep Roads; under them, I believe. We travel through it while inside a titan, so we don't actually see the entire thing. I see Abyss and Void being used interchangeably; it might be no coincidence that this area was called an 'abyss'. Wouldn't it be fun if the titans were holding up the world?
How would Avvar or any human tribe appropriate "Elven" stories and gods? Arlathan was destroyed when humans came on the scene, the elves would soon be enslaved by the Tevinter humans. Why would the elves share stories of the Evanuris? Why would humans not only believe these stories but appropriate them into human history? Unless humans were around in the Age of Arlathan. Dismissed and ignored by the Evanuris.
This is just adding more tinfoil to the mountain of tinfoil this theory is, but let's just assume the story of a mortal woman climbing up the mountains to the palace of the gods and receiving gifts is an elvhen one. Who is the one person we know of to be elevated to the ranks of the Evanuris after their initial rise to power? Right, Ghilan'nain.
And just to add to that theory, the Avaar have 2 stories to explain why the mountain is gone, one with the lady of the skies and one with the serpent. Andruils story about being blighted ends with her being Mythal, who is in other theories rumoured to be the lady of the skies already, in serpent form, connecting those stories as well. However, this would mean that the god upon this mountain was Andruil and neither Solas nor Elgar'nan and would most likely make at least parts of Ferelden Andruils lands.
Interesting theory! Since I don't really use Reddit or Twitter I'm not sure if this has already been discussed, but are there any theories on the demon-spirit relationship, I wonder? We saw in Inquisition that a spirit can easily driven to become a demon by outside sources, and then the demon can potentially become a spirit again (Solas' friend). I was wondering if this would mean that all demons in the fade were once spirits, and if there can be a potential ritual to turn them back to normal something like how tranquility can be reversed.
Could be, but I think it's more likely we're dealing with a continuum of "pleasant" emotions to "horrible" emotions rather than a true spirit/demon. That would mean that Pride (perhaps hubris at your own knowledge) is a more negative or twisted (to use Solas's word) version of Wisdom.
I've also seen a pretty solid theory that Solas (and many other Elvhen) may have once been spirits, having willingly taken a solid form much like Cole did, but before the Veil. :-) Pride spirit seem familiar, Solas? It would make Wisdom's loss even more bitter and poignant if Solas was once a literal kindred spirit.
First-Born=Spirits, Second=Humans, But what about the Elves they're older than humans so mankind knew about them and yet still sing that their the Second race so my guess since playing inquisition is that elves are spirits in physical form, It also explains Solas love for them but his whole plan is to destroy every race but his own.
Ps I hope their is a cure for the Demons i like them.
The golden city could be Barindur, a city which disappeared
“Doobilydoo”
A fan of colville?
The sad thing with "timeline" rebuttal, is that now that time travel is possible, you can always dismiss those kind of rebuttal. And why not there, the power of creation has to be stronger than a Tevinter mage + Fen'arel's anchor bringing you forward and back in time.
Interesting theory but it's probably Arlathan :'D
What if the mountain Belenas like it said was raised up or torn away from Thedas, stuck in part of the fade (hence the mountain top you climb to reach “Andrasta” the glowing green figure just after you make your character)
What if the mountain was a Titan. O_O
Dont the Avaar have a lot of experience with spirits? Not too much of a stretch think that maybe they were the ones that showed the Avaar via waking dreams.
It is often so with mythology, even more in real life, that different cultures and religion borrow entire stories from each other. Just look for akkadic/babylonic/sumeric myths in comparison and than again how the bible draw from it.
could the story talk about a titan that went deeper underground instead of a mountain?
Buuuuuut if Mythal was the serpent, that means "Kord"... I mean, Korth is Andruil, and Korth won in Avvar means. This is a great contradiction...
Hmm, I don't think so. To me this theory would indicate that Korth was already there - perhaps connected with the dwarves & humans - and Andruil discovered his mountain and/or the lyrium, ultimately fighting with Mythal on Korth's mountain. Reminds me of the story of Tyrdda Bright-axe, which also draws strong connections between the evanuris, dwarves, and alamarri.
dooblydoo!
it's a great theory complicated. But great. The Blythe was dwarven made and not elven. Solas says as much in inquisition. He says his people had nothing to do with archdemons. I believe him because the Blythe was man made or dwarven and man made. It was Corepheus who released the Blythe on thedas. Solas set the event up to kill Corypheus so that he could retrieve the orb later. It makes no sense that Solas uses this extreme method to get rid of one Mage in an explosion which corrupts the whole of thedas and unleashes the cycle of the Blythe. The Blythe endangers Solas too. Bioware needs to clean up some of this pot holes in storyline. I don't believe the magisters entered the golden city. The golden city is the seat of the maker and is perfection. Corypheus entered the dead city of Arlathan where he discovers the orb filled with red lyrium( remember it's unstable and explodes without warning) corypheus fleeing back to thedas with the other magisters through the elluvians corrupts them with cause he's shedding red lyrium thus corrupting the world.'this orb was fashioned and forged in one of the city of the smiths Kal Sharok.
eva magnusson
Well this is a lot contradictory with dai and tresspasser.
We know for sure for ew that the orb isn't made with red lyrium, but is re only when corypheus use it, it is green most of time and when the inquisitor use it.
It's alsi break a lot of the timeline as solas woke up only a year before dai, corypheus being blighted a millenia ago
Not enough known, but I would say the tin foil too thick to be real in this case. Myths should be taken as they are. Stories told by people who only maybe know a grain of truth and spun a tale around it.
Good theory but don’t think it’s true