It’s really depressing listening to this in 2023 and knowing that after all the protests and the blood and agony of 2020…. Not a god damn thing changed and no reforms were made. This episode really captured the sense that we might be at a pivotal moment for police reform and BOY were we NOT THERE.
2024 reporting in: we aren't there yet. Tho, there's some good news: the covid 45 rapture is shrinking the Plague Bearing minority who most support the warrior cops. Tomorrow is going to be better than today as the more woke generations fill the power the boomers (reluctantly) vacate.
@@petebondurant58 that is hilariously untrue. An Entirely made up claim without evidence of any kind. If you think that’s true your preferred media is dead ass lying to you.
I'm sure it was in an episode of Babylon 5 where one character, probably Sheridan, was stating that soldiers cannot be used as police, since one is trained to protect the citizens, the other is trained to kill the enemies of the state, and if you use soldiers then the people they're supposed to protect end up being seen as the enemies of the state. Kind of a "only tool is a hammer, all problems are nails" argument.
Don't both military and martial arts training stress the importance of de-escalation, of avoiding violence and minimizing harm if at all possible? Because it seems to me like this training is centered on telling people to seek out excuses to kill someone, and if they can't find an excuse, make one
they're for different purposes. a military is for projecting hard power abroad. MA training is for personal protection, health, etc. the pigs are for keeping labor, the poor, and especially black people "in their place"
Not all military training. The Nazis trained their soldiers to shut off their hearts and minds when killing. It was the Krupp’s steel German man ideal, training your body to do what the heart and mind resisted. Because it wouldn’t be a right wing American concept without horrifying parallels to the Nazis
The wild thing about this is that his metaphor is totally wrong: sheepdogs don't look like wolves. They look like sheep, that's their whole job. Grossman is thinking of *shepherd dogs,* not sheepdogs. (Google will help: look up a German shepherd and an English Sheepdog.) Sheep love sheepdogs, because all sheepdogs do is hang out and chill with them, and then jump out if wolves show up. They don't love shepherd dogs, because shepherd dogs bark at them and make them go places. If we were to think of human professions here, we might consider air marshals as sheepdogs, and the IRS as shepherd dogs. Nobody has a beef with air marshals, because they don't bother anybody. Lots of people dislike the IRS, but they almost never kill people so very few people are really scared of the IRS.
In the UK and other Commonwealth countries 'sheepdog' does also refer to dogs that herd/round up sheep - _BUT_ they're almost always Border Collies and they're _very_ good at getting the sheep to move _without_ using teargas.
@@williamchamberlain2263 Yeah, in common usage here in the US, I certainly wouldn't correct someone who talked about their dog having "a herding instinct like a sheepdog" or something. Casually, the words definitely overlap. But Grossman claims to be an academic, and he puts a LOT of weight on this metaphor. Seems to me that he should be using the most precise name for the kind of dog he means, not a different name that means a different kind of dog but can also refer to the ones he means. Sorta like "weight" and "mass:" you can use them interchangeably in conversation, but if you're writing a physics paper you really should get your words straight.
I remember reading his book *On Killing* back in the 90s. The creep's been around for a while. There's some interesting history in it, but Grossman really got the wrong message from his research and no, the world does not need more callous killers.
The only time someone says "I am not lying," it would be in response to someone saying "you're lying," so a person who already thinks you might be lying. This is just giving people carte blanche to feel certain that their instinct is correct.
Also the only time people say "I'm not lying" is when they are, in fact, not lying. Mainly because "nuh uh" is universally understood by adults as a bad way of convincing someone. Someone who is lying will say things like "What are you talking about" "Why would I do that?", etc
It speaks to a mentality that says everyone else is a "sheep" (passive and inferior) or a "wolf" (a killer, a monster). It's incredibly narcissistic which is probably why it appears on so many bumper stickers and shirts.
Grossman's book and lessons are for people who watch Training Day, The Shield, and A Few Good Men, while siding with the characters of Alonzo Harris, Vic Mackey and Lt. Col Jessup like they're truly the good guys. The types to side with The Undertaker (and his evil cult) while taking Vince McMahon's daughter as his unholy wed bride while Paul Bearer conducts the ceremony and laughs maniacally. The type to see Brock Lesnar as the victim against any black world champion whom he will easily thrash without a care, as if the black man holding the title had superior power in the company or any level of superior force. The type to side with Hit...i think you know where I'm going with this. 🤦🏾♂️
So, I'm a black trans woman. So understand how weird it's going to sound for me to defend Dean Keller's dad. Particularly him saying his son was too nice at 37:00 In Security, law enforcement, etc; there's levels of Force. Use of a Baton in most Enforcement handbooks in the US is considered before deadly, and is usually when someone should be detained. This is Dean Keller mistake that his dad was trying to point out. He even says 'he should've cuffed him'. Thta is correct procedure for nonviolent/semiviolent people. Even if they are armed. You have to disable them (not kill them) quickly, or remove yourself from the equation to get help. Maintain at least 6 feet from someone otherwise, or whatever distance is appropriate. All of this is in BASIC police training. Dean did none of this. It got him and the person he was trying to empathize with killed. He made several mistakes he was told about, and his father is likely trying to impress what they were, so it doesn't happen again.. Ore than anything, that strikes me as someone trying to be responsible. That being said, Acab. You know.
I'd agree that when Dean knocked him down, Dean should have cuffed him immediately - if he could; I get the impression that cuffing someone who wants to fight isn't easy if the police officer is alone. Not sure what the solution there is, given how dangerous tasers are.
@@williamchamberlain2263 Just completed a class for stuff involving this, actually. For cuffing: It is not, but it can be done. If he was close enough to beat him with a baton, he was close enough to cuff. 6 ft of movement is closest you want to be with anyone you're engaged in, and even then, you don't beat to beat/harm: you beat to disable. Proper procedure for this would be ask, tell, warn, command, then process and escalate (those steps of force most police officers should know, but seems to conveniently forget when it comes to certain folk), use 'reasonable' force, and only climb the stairs when you need to (someone is being a threat) or if the person does not de-escalate. The person Dean went after went through all of that and he followed. Even after the baton didn't work. No attempt to cuff, no attempt to leave. That's a sign of horrible cop training. So, you know, fitting it's coming from this episode, where Robert and co are very much right otherwise.
@@RedTailedSmeargle I mean if I hadn't already known about the incident, I could have easily gotten that name from how they were saying it on the podcast. Dinkheller is just not a name you expect to hear
"if you can talk you can breath!"that wrestling training, for athletic competition...where athletes have had physical exam recently. first responders should have more emphasis on first aide.
40:25 there's plenty of examples of misfire-load on top-explodes on second/later fire from officers' pistols in the English Civil War when they absolutely were trying to kill their opponents.
Andrew Brannan was a pointman during the war. His unit was followed by a TV crew at one point, and we got to see him and how he conducted himself. He was the first person to usually contact the enemy, and he made it through alive... He most certainly was not the kind of person to fuck with. Feel bad for both of those men. Neither of them deserved their lives to be ruined... And to see Officer Dinkhellers death used to whip up cops into a frenzy.
Hey, that comment at the end, your legal right to protest. I think that right has been taken away in the UK where im from. Any other British people here know if that's true?
I work as a security guard at my university, and every time a cop/ex-cop comes in to give us some kind of training it becomes painfully apparent how terrified they are of the world. Half of the time they're stuck on frustrated off-topic diatribes, one of the most notable being an instructor who was pissed that THE MEDIA stopped reporting on fentanyl in Halloween candy, something that simply never happened.
It’s really depressing listening to this in 2023 and knowing that after all the protests and the blood and agony of 2020…. Not a god damn thing changed and no reforms were made. This episode really captured the sense that we might be at a pivotal moment for police reform and BOY were we NOT THERE.
Well we were. Then concessions were made and the liberals went home.
@@Colonel_Bat_Guano True
2024 reporting in: we aren't there yet.
Tho, there's some good news: the covid 45 rapture is shrinking the Plague Bearing minority who most support the warrior cops. Tomorrow is going to be better than today as the more woke generations fill the power the boomers (reluctantly) vacate.
Plenty of things changed. Criminals can roam streets at will and face nearly zero repercussions in nearly every major city of the United States.
@@petebondurant58 that is hilariously untrue. An Entirely made up claim without evidence of any kind. If you think that’s true your preferred media is dead ass lying to you.
I'm sure it was in an episode of Babylon 5 where one character, probably Sheridan, was stating that soldiers cannot be used as police, since one is trained to protect the citizens, the other is trained to kill the enemies of the state, and if you use soldiers then the people they're supposed to protect end up being seen as the enemies of the state. Kind of a "only tool is a hammer, all problems are nails" argument.
I think this was on Battlestar Galactica but might be B5 as well
Don't both military and martial arts training stress the importance of de-escalation, of avoiding violence and minimizing harm if at all possible? Because it seems to me like this training is centered on telling people to seek out excuses to kill someone, and if they can't find an excuse, make one
they're for different purposes. a military is for projecting hard power abroad. MA training is for personal protection, health, etc. the pigs are for keeping labor, the poor, and especially black people "in their place"
Not all military training. The Nazis trained their soldiers to shut off their hearts and minds when killing. It was the Krupp’s steel German man ideal, training your body to do what the heart and mind resisted. Because it wouldn’t be a right wing American concept without horrifying parallels to the Nazis
@@banjohero1182 They don't seem to be keeping those particular people in their place in any city governed by Democrats these days.
The wild thing about this is that his metaphor is totally wrong: sheepdogs don't look like wolves. They look like sheep, that's their whole job. Grossman is thinking of *shepherd dogs,* not sheepdogs. (Google will help: look up a German shepherd and an English Sheepdog.) Sheep love sheepdogs, because all sheepdogs do is hang out and chill with them, and then jump out if wolves show up. They don't love shepherd dogs, because shepherd dogs bark at them and make them go places.
If we were to think of human professions here, we might consider air marshals as sheepdogs, and the IRS as shepherd dogs. Nobody has a beef with air marshals, because they don't bother anybody. Lots of people dislike the IRS, but they almost never kill people so very few people are really scared of the IRS.
In the UK and other Commonwealth countries 'sheepdog' does also refer to dogs that herd/round up sheep - _BUT_ they're almost always Border Collies and they're _very_ good at getting the sheep to move _without_ using teargas.
@@williamchamberlain2263 Yeah, in common usage here in the US, I certainly wouldn't correct someone who talked about their dog having "a herding instinct like a sheepdog" or something. Casually, the words definitely overlap.
But Grossman claims to be an academic, and he puts a LOT of weight on this metaphor. Seems to me that he should be using the most precise name for the kind of dog he means, not a different name that means a different kind of dog but can also refer to the ones he means. Sorta like "weight" and "mass:" you can use them interchangeably in conversation, but if you're writing a physics paper you really should get your words straight.
As 80k more agents were hired . All armed. No. They just extort everyone who is productive.
I actually have met Lt. Col. David Grossman several times. He is actually even worse in person than this podcast illustrates.
why does anyone take a buffoon like dave grossman seriously? his answer to school shootings is more ammo dumps ffs
Literally a gross, disgusting man
I remember reading his book *On Killing* back in the 90s. The creep's been around for a while. There's some interesting history in it, but Grossman really got the wrong message from his research and no, the world does not need more callous killers.
worse he said enjoy killing bc you will have the best sex of your life @@alexcarter8807
@@alexcarter8807what's actually wrong with the book?
The only time someone says "I am not lying," it would be in response to someone saying "you're lying," so a person who already thinks you might be lying. This is just giving people carte blanche to feel certain that their instinct is correct.
Also the only time people say "I'm not lying" is when they are, in fact, not lying. Mainly because "nuh uh" is universally understood by adults as a bad way of convincing someone. Someone who is lying will say things like "What are you talking about" "Why would I do that?", etc
"Sheep, sheepdogs and wolves" is something you'd find on a right-wing t-shirt, not a scientific principle
It speaks to a mentality that says everyone else is a "sheep" (passive and inferior) or a "wolf" (a killer, a monster). It's incredibly narcissistic which is probably why it appears on so many bumper stickers and shirts.
Grossman's book and lessons are for people who watch Training Day, The Shield, and A Few Good Men, while siding with the characters of Alonzo Harris, Vic Mackey and Lt. Col Jessup like they're truly the good guys. The types to side with The Undertaker (and his evil cult) while taking Vince McMahon's daughter as his unholy wed bride while Paul Bearer conducts the ceremony and laughs maniacally. The type to see Brock Lesnar as the victim against any black world champion whom he will easily thrash without a care, as if the black man holding the title had superior power in the company or any level of superior force. The type to side with Hit...i think you know where I'm going with this. 🤦🏾♂️
Grossman also branched out to marriage counseling...
Oooo boy
Did he recommend shooting the wife incase she steps on your toes?
let me guess. he isn't a big fan of no fault divorces.
He's also the reason 40% of cops are domestic abusers lmao
As a book nerd, my search for David Grossman came up with the awesome Israeli writer. The difference between this two could not be greater......
So, I'm a black trans woman. So understand how weird it's going to sound for me to defend Dean Keller's dad. Particularly him saying his son was too nice at 37:00
In Security, law enforcement, etc; there's levels of Force. Use of a Baton in most Enforcement handbooks in the US is considered before deadly, and is usually when someone should be detained. This is Dean Keller mistake that his dad was trying to point out. He even says 'he should've cuffed him'.
Thta is correct procedure for nonviolent/semiviolent people. Even if they are armed. You have to disable them (not kill them) quickly, or remove yourself from the equation to get help. Maintain at least 6 feet from someone otherwise, or whatever distance is appropriate. All of this is in BASIC police training.
Dean did none of this. It got him and the person he was trying to empathize with killed. He made several mistakes he was told about, and his father is likely trying to impress what they were, so it doesn't happen again.. Ore than anything, that strikes me as someone trying to be responsible.
That being said, Acab. You know.
I'd agree that when Dean knocked him down, Dean should have cuffed him immediately - if he could; I get the impression that cuffing someone who wants to fight isn't easy if the police officer is alone. Not sure what the solution there is, given how dangerous tasers are.
@@williamchamberlain2263 Just completed a class for stuff involving this, actually.
For cuffing: It is not, but it can be done. If he was close enough to beat him with a baton, he was close enough to cuff. 6 ft of movement is closest you want to be with anyone you're engaged in, and even then, you don't beat to beat/harm: you beat to disable.
Proper procedure for this would be ask, tell, warn, command, then process and escalate (those steps of force most police officers should know, but seems to conveniently forget when it comes to certain folk), use 'reasonable' force, and only climb the stairs when you need to (someone is being a threat) or if the person does not de-escalate.
The person Dean went after went through all of that and he followed. Even after the baton didn't work. No attempt to cuff, no attempt to leave.
That's a sign of horrible cop training. So, you know, fitting it's coming from this episode, where Robert and co are very much right otherwise.
His name was Kyle Dinkheller, if'n someone wants to look it up
@@Daedalus117 thank you. Sorry I got the name wrong.
@@RedTailedSmeargle I mean if I hadn't already known about the incident, I could have easily gotten that name from how they were saying it on the podcast. Dinkheller is just not a name you expect to hear
Man, when even Sophie is grossed out by you...
"if you can talk you can breath!"that wrestling training, for athletic competition...where athletes have had physical exam recently. first responders should have more emphasis on first aide.
Grossman writing about dogs and wolves not realizing that dogs are basically wolves.
But what are Tasmanian devils?
@@petebondurant58 They’re highly localized weather phenomena.
@@geovaughan8261 Like my diarrhea?
Someone needs to time stamp Roberts story about Iraq and feelings on guns. Then post it everywhere
I bet if you do the right after aggression test on people after a game of football or rugby, you would get similar higher than normal results.
It's well known that domestic violence goes 'way up when the Superbowl or other big games are on TV.
40:25 there's plenty of examples of misfire-load on top-explodes on second/later fire from officers' pistols in the English Civil War when they absolutely were trying to kill their opponents.
Andrew Brannan was a pointman during the war. His unit was followed by a TV crew at one point, and we got to see him and how he conducted himself. He was the first person to usually contact the enemy, and he made it through alive... He most certainly was not the kind of person to fuck with. Feel bad for both of those men. Neither of them deserved their lives to be ruined... And to see Officer Dinkhellers death used to whip up cops into a frenzy.
Brannan was a field artillery officer.
Hey, that comment at the end, your legal right to protest. I think that right has been taken away in the UK where im from. Any other British people here know if that's true?
Certainly is, and leaving Europe means we no longer have a human rights charter. This is what we get for continually voting for tory scum.
David Grossman is a Metal Gear villain
I work as a security guard at my university, and every time a cop/ex-cop comes in to give us some kind of training it becomes painfully apparent how terrified they are of the world. Half of the time they're stuck on frustrated off-topic diatribes, one of the most notable being an instructor who was pissed that THE MEDIA stopped reporting on fentanyl in Halloween candy, something that simply never happened.