The Last of Us Part 2 is Overindulgent (And That's Okay)
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
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The Last Of Us Part 2 is clever, but it's also indulgent. It knows that it's clever and loses some of the first game's understatedness as a result. But when it comes to its first ten minutes, that's not necessarily a bad thing.
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I believe Naughty Dog did what they did with TLOUP2 because they had no confidence that they could recreate how good the story between Joel & Ellie was in TLOUP1.
Just think about how meta the plot of TLOUP2 is. Ellie is in a state of inconsolable rage because Abby denied her the opportunity to work through living and trusting Joel again.
Just as players were just as outraged as Ellie was that Joel was removed from the story.
So Naughty Dog traded in what could’ve been an incredible tale of drama, conflict and healing for a simple tale of a Quest for Revenge. Which is a hallmark of B Action Movies for a reason because a story about revenge is one of the easiest stories to write.
And Naughty Dog decided to do what was easy instead of what was right.
I'm going to need a 5 hour version of this
There was a 5-7 hour essay about The Last of Us 2 but I can't find it
It was named "[something] or [something]" (not very helpful but that's what I remember)
@@2dcreative94 by the youtuber luke stephens
@@pufflezzz7225 no, not that
I want to like Luke Stephens’ videos, but so much of his style seems to hinge on continually looping back to something he’s already covered but in slightly different words. In 20 minutes, he’ll have said 4 things 3 different ways and while I’m sure that’s an effective strategy for information retention it’s also incredibly pedantic. He’s clearly very talented, but it’s just not fun (for me) to listen to
Yeahhhhhh I'm gonna need you to do a deep dive into both of the games fully bro. Really enjoyed this 'tease' but it's definitely left me wanting more 🙏
The introduction is great but I really dont think anyone complains about the bit youve covered- like everything literally until this point ive never heard a complaint about, but from then on it starts to fall apart for people.
It's like doing a movie review of say, Bolt and stopping it before they reveal they're filming a show- the intro is setup, not the full thing
That's the point of these, though. These aren't full reviews, they're looks at the 'First 10 Minutes' of a game discussing how well they can get their hooks into a player, and push them on to finish the game in question.
That this game in particular is an example of don't judge a book by the cover, as it's a fantastic cover, but then falls apart once you start reading it, is in and of itself, another discussion, for another time.
4:10 they didn't find other immune people, they tried to make a cure out of normal infected people and that's why it didn't work. It is implied that a cure could gave been possible: not even Joel ever doubt that. Nobody, in both games ever implied that the cure wasn't gonna work, at most some characters believe that humanity doesnt deserve it if im not mistaken, which is a whole other story.
I have to agree tho that IRL nobody would decide to open her head after a few hours of exams, but in the end scinece has to be very simplified in media like games and movies, even to a frustrating degree
Either way the cure wouldn't have worked sure some fireflies mosy likely leaders may have gotten it but I doubt they have the means or want to mass produce and ship it to every settlement. So killing ellie would have been wasteful and useless.
ppl misinterpret that recording so much
Yeah I love Monty’s videos but he completely missed the point there. Ellie was and is the only immune person - the story does not make sense otherwise.
Wait what?
I interpret the reasoning that the Firerlies performed the procedure on Ellie so soon as being because of their desperation and lack of competency shown throughout the game.
I feel like a deeply personal story of revenge like this can only work for me if I align myself with Ellie’s objectives. If you are, however, like me and wanted her to stay in Jackson and work through her grief, then the story will fall flat.
The gameplay is brutal in every sense of the word, but Ellie felt like a completely different character from the cutscenes. More ruthless, cutthroat. A cold blooded killing machine, and yet, the moment I reached my target, she flounders. Gameplay Ellie would’ve pulled the trigger the instant they were within firing range. Instead she gets all flustered and starts deeply pondering the cycle of violence like she hadn’t slaughtered a small nation just to get there. Druckmann can have his cake or he can eat it, but he can’t do both
Gameplay Ellie does say lines which makes her consistent, even her companions say stuff if u brutally kill someone. Plus people like nora aren't just fodder in her way, in a way she was a connection to them
That brings the discussion of "Should video games always be fun?" To my mind. When I first played tlou2 I didn't like it very much. I didn't want Ellie to leave Jackson and I positively hated every second of the epilogue. I didn't want her to leave Dina, I was practically screaming at my screen "WHY?? NO!! GO BACK!". But after some discussions with friends and some thinking I came to the conclusion that that probably was the point. I didn't like how the game made me feel because it wasn't supposed to. And I have to respect a game or art in general for invoking such strong emotions within me. I think of this game a lot, not because of the stunning graphics or the gameplay but because of the way they sent me on a rollercoaster of emotions while playing it. The game has its flaws imo, don't get me wrong but all in all it did a great job in achieving what it wanted to, at least in my opinion.
This is an awful read of the text lol
But a character isn’t only relatable because they would act the exact same way you would or you would want them to. More often than not the most interesting characters are those where you can never be sure what they’ll do next.
Gameplay ellie these people are trying to actively kill her = self defence something she is used to
Cutscene ellie = trying to get answers for joels death becoming frustrated and emotional while trying to channel joel taking a toll on her mentally something she is not used to, makes sense to me 🤷
I think a lot of people forget, Joel wouldn’t have done those horrendous murders if they had just let him walk away with her. Joel made a choice but the Fireflies did too, it’s not entirely his fault. T-T
Edit: considering the firelies already sacrificed so many people for the sake of “humanity” without probably their consent and without even telling them the risks, I’m team Joel.
People like to ignore this point and act like Joel is the worst person in the series lol
I do find it interesting that one of the only trained medical professionals we even know about in the series, someone who would be absolutely vital to the longevity of a settlement, deliberately puts himself in harm's way despite knowing there are dozens of armed people whose job is to do that nearby. He's quick to try and stop Joel by threatening him with a scalpel instead of stepping aside and staying alive so he can continue to treat his community and continue work towards a cure should Ellie or another subject return.
I do think that's the point. Both Joel and the Fireflies (including Marlene) didn't take Ellie's agency or consent into consideration which I think opens up an interesting discussion in itself.
Honestly even without the saving Ellie part Joel was pretty justified. They took all of his gear with seemingly no intention to return and weren’t going to pay him. In that circumstance I imagine a lot of people would have wanted some payback.
@@trevvy2124 100%. Not something that gets discussed anywhere near enough. Nobody asks what Ellie wants to do, not the Fireflies nor Joel. Selfish actions motivated by pain and trauma begetting more pain and trauma. So human and true.
Ya know, I hadn't thought about the informed consent issue of it all and how that kind of fucks all of the fireflies' morality up, I still think there's a ton of wrong to what Joel did, but I think it does help recontextualize his actions into a less morally dark space. Doing what they are doing without informing her what could and likely will happen is wrong and something they as doctors should have known and acted to correct, as the parasite is a threat clear enough that a lot of people would still be willing to sacrifice themselves even if they knew what was to come.
He kind of does the same thing, though. By lying to her, he's taking away her ability to decide for herself too
@@IndependentTitle yes, but there is a difference between doctors operating and killing someone without letting them choose vs being selfish and going “well, everybody else here can die. I’m saving my daughter figure’s life.” Massive difference. Personally, 10/10 times I’m siding with Joel. Killing a child on the *possibility* that they’re a miracle cure without their knowledge is insanely unethical.
Yeah also remember that the Fireflies were going to kill Joel.
He didn't get the weapons Marlene was supposed give him but he was let go as "This is a gift Joel"
Yeah the Fireflies were kinda assholes, this game has to back peddle a lot of that to make this story work to make the Fireflies sympathetic.
Yeah Joel's decision is out of selfishness, not heroism.
But the Fireflies were worse, they didn't even wait for Ellie to wake up they were just going to use her like a resource and again Marlene didn't even honor her deal with Joel and was supposed to kill him
It's very clearly painted as the lesser Evil albeit Joel not telling Ellie is also incredibly wrong.
@@IndependentTitle When he lied to her he robbed her of some agency. The fireflies were going to rob her of her agency AND her life.
@@dude9904 Unequivocally worse, even.
There is absolutely NO reason to believe that a single biopsy from a single infected individual would be enough to synthesize enough "vaccine" to cure even a single person, let alone the world. And in the process you are killing your only source of this inert version of cordyceps. The fireflies are absolutely braindead in what they planned to do and, for reasons I'm about to go into, it straight up wouldn't have worked even if they could synthesize a treatment from that one biopsy of Ellie's brain.
You can't vaccinate a fungus. You can only treat it once you've got it. So you're still talking about people having to actually get infected, and then get re-treated every single time they get infected. When you get sick due to mold, then treat yourself with an anti-fungal agent, you aren't just immune to that strain of mold forever. You have to re-treat it if you're exposed again.
And that's all assuming the fireflies even intended to share the cure, which... given their actions and how they renege on their deal with Joel. Yeah. I doubt it.
So, best case scenario? Ellie's death leads to them being able to hold the places they've got. It does nothing to clear out infected, nothing to immunize, and nothing to stop the Hunters.
Beat the game last night expecting to hate it, but ended up loving it, while simultaneously being emotionally devastated by it. I think the game’s main theme is, as someone else already pointed out, not vengeance but forgiveness. “Revenge is bad” is, to me, a surface level understanding of the themes. While some parts of the game are a little too heavy handed/try too hard, I for one ended up feeling for both Abby and Ellie. Abby’s whole arc with Lev was so good, especially because it paralleled Joel’s arc from the first game to an extent. The game also has a lot more to say about tribalism, empathy, the ability to forgive wrongdoing, letting go, etc. Idk, it just never fell apart for me. I feel like it was a bit too long and over-indulgent at a few points, but definitely not overall. Also, vengeance is just a vehicle used to show that by the end, Ellie forgave Abby and let her go because she was robbed of the opportunity to do so with Joel. Her and Joel were going to work toward fixing their relationship, but never got the change to because of what Abby did. Hence why now, in the last moment before Ellie drowns Abby, she recalls one of the final memories she has with Joel, and for the first time, it’s not the image of his face beaten to a pulp. And I haven’t even mentioned how brilliantly they portrayed Ellie’s PTSD. The scene in the barn was one of my favourites in the game.
I really do think the game has a lot more to offer than a lot of people give it credit for. As someone who loved the first game, though I get why TLOU2 is divisive, I still adored it. But one thing is for sure: the game is emotionally exhausting.
I really liked The Last of Us Part II, but I think the idea that it's over indulgent is the perfect critique. When I finally finished the game, I had to sit and stare at the credits for a while before I could really move past it. The game hurt me in a way I didn't really think would be possible by any form of media, and for that alone I could never say it's a failure. However, just like any good, or even great, game, it doesn't do everything perfectly.
My main issues with the game would boil down to 2 things: 1. It's too long: The game length itself isn't the issue, the problem is that the game play sections are so long that I would often feel fatigue with an area or play session because it just kept going. I know it's odd to complain about an over abundance of content, but when the thing that drove me to love story telling games is a strong balance between story beats and gameplay moments, tipping the scale too far either way hinders the experience.
2. The game has an amazing message, that is muddied by poor execution: Maybe I'm the only person who took this message away from the game, but I felt the main point of the game was to show that people and groups are just that, people and groups, not "Good Guys" and "Bad Guys", just people trying to survive the best way they can. The game shows this over and over again by showing the horrible things people will do, only to show how good and caring they can also be. Ellie is this young woman who wanted to save the world, but she ended up doing some horrible things. Abby is introduced to us brutally hunting down and murdering Joel, only to be shown as a brawny woman who just wanted to have her Dad back and protect the people around her. Joel isn't a monster who kills for fun, he's a caring father that will do anything to protect the people he loves, and he ends up killing lots of relatively innocent people because of it.
The whole WLF vs Seraphites also illustrates that each group believes they are in the right and demonizes the other group, but both groups have good points and bad points.
However, we end the game in California fighting off a group that is shown to have zero redeeming qualities, they are just the bad guys so you don't have to feel bad about murdering them all. I really feel like that took away from that central message of people not being monsters or saints, but just people.
Also, just a note about the whole "multiple immune people" thing. That's a "fact" that has been perpetuated online for a long time due to a lot of theory crafting before the second game came out. There was a very prominent and popular video that came out showing evidence that the fireflies were incompetent and likely going to kill Ellie for no reason. While a fun idea at the time, it is false. There is no info in the first Last of Us game that indicates the Fireflies had ever encountered, much less expiramented on, any person with immunity. The second game makes it clear that the author's intention for the first game was that Ellie would have 100% provided a cure for the disease. www.reddit.com/r/thelastofus/comments/np6tj8/clearing_up_a_misconception_about_ellies_immunity/
Well, I don't think that the existence of the rattlers muddles the message.
The game is ultimately about recognizing someone's humanity. The rattlers, as downright fucking awful as they are (they are slavers), are still people. The game doesn't deny this. They are still given names etc, they have families. There's a tendency people have to categorize absolutely awful people as monsters or thinking of them as not human. But they are. People are capable of great evil, and not recognizing that is a bit dangerous, imo.
But what they do is absolutely awful. So, yeah. They can be cannon fodder for the player. I don't see an issue with that.
And the player can still move through that section without having to kill any Rattler in combat if they want to (although that is a bit challenging), and Ellie will canonically only kill 2 (the two who try to trap and enslave her)
@@SidPhoenix2211 I don't believe the slavers ruin the game or the message, it just felt a bit odd to have a group so easily catagorized as evil when the games message seemed to be about how there are no good or evil groups or people, just people trying to survive their best. From my perspective, my experience, I didn't see any redeeming qualities about the group. If they had shown a room, or a cutscene, that gave them some sort of redeeming quality, that's all I really wanted.
Joel isn't a 'bad guy', but he didn't save Ellie because he thought the Fireflies would fail to make a cure. The final moments of the first game make it clear that he sacrificed a cure for his new daughter.
I loved TLOU2. Not perfect, but an incredible experience. I find it somewhat ironic that a game about empathy received so much vitriol from people who couldn't empathize with the characters.
Exactly, I find it strange how so many people think Joels actions were heroic. He “saved” her because HE didnt want to loser her, simple.
The entire final chapter he is trying to pretend they now have a healthy and happy relationship and she isn’t responsive to it
@@TheGamerThing agreed. You're supposed to care about Joel and understand his decision but it is still presented as a deeply troubling act, even he knew otherwise he'd not feel the need to lie about it.
The major issue I have with this game is Abby; the writers desperately try to make her out to be a justified, reformed, hero but it just doesn't work. She's a psycho who almost knowingly killed a pregnant woman and was about to enjoy doing it if not for fear of Lev's reaction. Let me repeat, not because she thought it was wrong but because she was afraid of Lev's reaction.
Abby was only seemingly enjoying killing Dina because she didn't know the truth of what happened with Ellie & Mel. She thought that Ellie had cold-bloodedly, indulgently killed Mel.
Abby was about to do the same. Eye for an eye and all that.
After doing so much work to be better, anger flows back into her system like poison and she is about to throw it all away.
She doesn't stop because of Lev's reaction. Lev interrupting her simply snaps her out of it and she reali,es what an awful thing she was about to do. So she stops.
A lack of communication, and understanding is intentionally one of the themes in the game.
And the game absolutely doesn't make her out to be some saint or some hero. There are good things about her and there are bad things about her and she's trying to be better. Just like Ellie is.
The game is simply presenting the full scope of who Abby is as a person. Just like it does with Ellie.
@@SidPhoenix2211 Why does Abby get away with all the shit she did then? Why is her revenge justified and Ellie's is vilified?
@@GalahadTheSeeker I don't think any of them get away unscathed? Why do you think Ellie is vilified? Why do you feel Abby gets away with it? Because she didn't die? Abby spent her entire time in the game slowly realising that killing Joel didn't heal her or bring her happiness. Ellie has been giving Joel shit for 2 years and refuses to forgive him about his decision to save her from the hospital. During the game, she's battling her lack of forgiveness towards Joel. She's wishing she could have forgiven him earlier and so she's battling herself throughout. She thinks going after Abby will relieve the burden of guilt. We've already seen this won't work as Abby decided she was going to try and change . Hence saving and protecting Lev. Thus becoming Joel. I'm not getting on your case but the narrative (I feel) is trying to present a story of conflict without winners. I hope that anyone that feels like answering can be constructive in their criticism of my take on it. I'm not trying to flame etc.
@@GalahadTheSeeker There's no good in-game answer. The true out-of-game answer is that Neil Druckmann wanted audiences to engage in victim-blaming.
Robert Cogburn, now former multiplayer lead at Naughty Dog (and major reason why they haven't had multiplayer since Uncharted 4) was a notorious sexual harasser. However, Neil protected Cogburn for years with the help of a VP at Naughty Dog by firing his victims before they could got to HR. This is the guy who wrote TLOU2.
Now with that in mind, doesn't everyone's motivations and why certain things happen in the story make more sense? Every illogical notion in the game can best be explained as "This is how Neil Druckmann would like the world."
@@myblueextremes1526 I feel that way because Abby got a relatively optimistic ending and the game tells us (through Lev) that she's a good person (meaning that she was justified in killing Joel) while Ellie got an absolute raw deal and lost everything she held dear and everyone except Tommy told her to stop which is basically the game's way of saying she's in the wrong.
Got it during the PS Black Friday sale and currently doing my first playthrough on hardcore. I’m indifferent to the story but enjoying the game allot right now, also the game is gorgeous (even on my launch ps4 lol)
It’s fun for the first playthrough. Try playing it again, it’s a different story.
Yeah I'm not a fan of this story but I'm a big fan of the exploration and combat.
The cheats you can unlock later also make certain encounters quite fun to replay
I hate that any Joel bashing is predicated on the presumption that it's alright to murder a child EVEN with their consent..
I loved TLOU part 2 and I always remember I heard Noah Gervais talk about how the fight at the end was the worst part of the game and I can't disagree more. I thought it was so interesting how the investment I'd developed in both the characters made the injury done to them so viscerally uncomfortable. I distinctly remember cringing when I saw Ellie drive the knife into Abby's arm. Not many pieces of media have gotten me to do that. Overindulgent perhaps but with good reason. Love the video always!
I agree with what you said a lot but the problem is not the feelings it invokes but the inconsistencies with it and forced moments that are purposely placed to invoke those emotions. Ellie just happens to have to stab the dog and turns out that dog happens to be one of Abby's best friends. A pregnant woman who happens to be the settlement's doctor is thrust into a warzone and slams her belly into a steel cage. Dina supposedly in love with Ellie without any context of why she loves her, and Jesse, a close friend to Ellie and father to Dina's child, being so tame and okay with Dina and Ellie dating along with Ellie placing her revenge above the wellbeing of Dina. And this is just a handful, there are plenty more than other videos highlighting this.
Joel's death was expected, many were ready for it and yea there are some fans who went to the extreme ends. But the writing for TLOUS 2 was a major step down from the previous game. Mostly due to Bruce Straley leading the project.
When the video ended I was sad it was over so quickly. I needs a meaty video diving deep into this series❤️
If the game had ended with Ellie in the barn having a panic attack, it would have been close to perfect. It would have been a messy, complicated ending to a messy, complicated game. She has her family, but she still has to cope with her grief and trauma. Her quest for revenge failed, and all she accomplished was making her life and the world at large a worse place.
That the game continues past that is what sours me. Gameplay wise it simply overstays its welcome, and narratively the story feels more focused on causing emotional harm to the player than a coherent narrative for the characters. I just can't help but feeling that the game is no longer operating in good faith past that point, and that feeling colors my perception of the rest of the game.
Mmmh... That's a really interesting thought and I would be tempted to agree. That is, if it wasn't for the fact that final fight on the water left me a complete sobbing mess like I don't think anything has ever done.
It was so powerful I would hate to have missed out on it in favour of a cleaner (and maybe better?) narrative.
If the game had ended at the farm... It literally would've ended without a proper ending to Ellie's arc.
And the gameplay section in Santa Barbara is one of the best and the feelings it evokes in the player and the way it connects -& disconnects player with the protag is just fantastic
The game would've been genuinely incomplete without Santa Barbara
@@SidPhoenix2211 "If the game had ended at the farm... It literally would've ended without a proper ending to Ellie's arc." Yeah, just like life, which would have been far more powerful a message in my personal opinion. The game goes out of it's way to nearly induce trauma in people with the gratuitous violence but shies away from the common life lesson that things don't always work out and satisfying conclusions in life are the exception not the rule. Some people live miserable lives that end in misery. It's sad but it's life.
I still don’t know how to feel about this game. I don’t think I like it but I don’t hate it. Sometimes I wish it didn’t exist because of how it divided the fanbase.
Great video but Ellie is the only confirmed case of immunity. The past cases were infected but not immune. That's why Ellie was so significant. Also, I'd argue Joel killing Marlene in cold blood was pretty ruthless.
Ruthless, yes. But necessary. Letting her live would’ve put Ellie in danger of ending up right back on that operating table. Joel didn’t know he killed the only doctor. For all he knew, they may never stop searching for her. I’m not arguing that it was cold blooded and ruthless, but it made 100% sense.
Marlene failed to uphold the original deal to begin with. A confirmed case of immunity is not a confirmation that a cure is able to be synthesized. They still ended up killing those non-immune people, and given how they were ready to put Ellie under the knife without even letting her know what was going to happen, they probably didn't care too much about their agency either.
In this first scene between Ellie and Joel we don't know that she has already found out what happened at the hospital. We find out much later. In this scene we are not sure why Ellie is uncomfortable and wants Joel to leave. The fact that the lie has already been exposed at this point was the biggest twist of the game for me and it completely recontextualizes the fist scenes.
I have complicated feelings towards TLOU2.
There are some generally brilliant moments throughout it, but I often felt two things while playing. The first was that there were times I felt like I was playing through the first of a series of final drafts, where the story is great but just needs those final adjustments. The second was I constantly couldn't stop myself from thinking "did Drukman want to write a book instead?"
That second thought was so prevalent during my playthrough that it was distracting and I just couldn't enjoy the game like I wanted. And looking back on TLOU2, I feel like there are scenes out of order. While the opening we have is great for the reasons you stated, when I got to the flashback scene of Ellie at the hospital I wondered aloud if that scene was meant to be the opening.
I feel like there were missed opportunities, like having a leitmotif based on Joel's song that haunts Ellie throughout her journey. Or hiding the fact that Abby is a playable character until the switch over (instead of swapping between her and Ellie in the opening hour).
Again, there are brilliant moments throughout the game but I feel likely ultimately the moments either feel disjointed or just shy of their full potential.
Though I will admit that part of this is that I went in with the expectation that I was going get something like a South Korean revenge story (like Old Boy). I have so many more thoughts on this game but I've already written so much (and I'm tempted to see if I could potentially learn how to make videos to get all those thoughts out) and there will be other times to share.
ngl, i felt a good majority of it. i think the BIGGEST thing would have been hiding the fact we were going to play as her until the switch over would have been a better move. i think they could have definitely "hinted" at abby or that people were watching jackson but left us mostly in the dark.
i was personally okay with scenes being out of order as they were flashbacks but it took a second playthrough to really understand what was going on lol and it was just a long game to play.
I adored TLoU2 and someday I'll give it another go. But my god it was so hard to get through because of the feelings I hesitate every time I think of it
You know, when you lay Ellie's lack of agency out like this, it makes me hate then end of 2 even more. All I want is a choice at the end to spare or kill Abby.
Not because I hate her, I understand her as a character. But in not giving us a choice, Drukman has stripped away the player's agency. You just get to play all the killings while Ellie gets to make the one (major) choice.
I dunno does this argument makes sense to anyone, or am I asking for too much?
I get your point! Though personally it didn’t bother me that much because I view both Last of Us and Last of Us 2 as games that are not necessarily about player choice, you know? I don’t think they could have delivered the same message if they had allowed the players to choose. I could be totally off base though idk lol
Edit: I also feel weird for loving the game as much as I did lol since everyone I knew hated it
@@Mahan1372 I feel like any game writer that denies player choice is working in the wrong medium or just aren't clever enough. All its takes is being a good "magcian" to cover up the merging path line of 2 choices. It's clear that Drunkman has always wanted to be a show/movie writer, but games where the only medium that would give him a chance
@@couchpotato2222 yeah I get your perspective as well :)
Game time...
I'm still surprised that people still talk about the last of us part 2
Shows how much we loved the first game, and how divisive part 2 is
Holy shit a sub-30 minute video from the Monty
tbh I think last of part 2 should have been last of us part 3 and that with last of part 2 should have be mostly joel and ellie and it could speed up near the end in time and then the last 3rd you play as abby but you are not really sure what she is looking for and then the end would be her spotting joel and saying that "i found the killer" I think that would have worked better giving you more time and seeing what joel and gang got up two and see the tension with him in ellie more and it would also let you get to know abby without the bias of knowing she is going to kill joel. I think that if they did this than it would have made joels death and thus playing as ellie and abby fighting each other more emotional snacthing becuase abby would have grown on you and thus when she does kill joel you just played the game learning her story and boom.
i understand what you're saying but i don't think that would have worked for tlou2. yeah it would have been great to have joel more but that's the big plot point other than the tension between joel/ellie? i do, however, think some of their initial ideas were better with the introduction of abby. there was a possible idea of her having infiltrated jackson with her friends then turning around to kill joel would have been shocking and would have given a stronger "mystery" to what was going on. one of the initial ideas for abby was that most of everyone she knew died at the hands of joel/tommy when they were hunters.
for me, it would have been more interesting to see three days before than the same three days in seattle. i get the point and i do get the emotional ride to that after getting to know abby/her friends but i think doing three days before they find joel would have given us a better idea of abby, her friends, and her headspace.
Last of us 2 always struck me as a game about forgiveness and bitter acceptance rather than a game about revenge
Only if you disregard the amount of murder you commit though the game. Real bad dissonance with this game I’d say.
@@Jester_Jingles The murder is innate with the world and Ellie herself doesn’t feel much more remorse for the characters she kills then you do.
@@captainblastems3367 which is why the whole forgiveness thing sucks. It’s the most unsatisfying ending.
@@Jester_Jingles Eh I just personally thought it worked and I liked it, I understand why people dont but I did.
@@captainblastems3367 fair enough
I enjoyed the game and had fun, will happily play through it again~
However I do have two points that nag me, the first is the ending, while everything leading up to it was great, I feel like it would have been more potent had Ellie just, let Abby go at the end right away without the fist fight, or some other tweak. If they wanted to end of a fist fight between the two, there could have been a better reason to do so that wasn't so forced, which may have been a point but it's not a point I agree with.
The other issue is just the switch between Ellie and Abby, I think the game would have benefited from switching between the two throughout the campaign, it could have helped with set up and payoff between the two characters, allowed for more attachment with some of Abby's friends before the get killed, also helped with the pacing and overall flow of the game.
I agree tha switching would make the pace better, but i think that the point it's make you hater her, and don't know anything about her, until you start to play as her, and then realised she is not that evil.
@@leandromadeireira8840 That could be what they where going for?
Yet the thing is I couldn't really say I hated Abby at that point?
Like, the worst thing about it is I'm unsure on how would be a good way to 'fix' the issues I have with the story as a whole~
But at the very least it is a great story/game to study and analyse what worked and what didn't lol
@@That_Ifrit_Guy this game has a big problem for me, is how much relies on very specifics state's of mind to work, like, you have to love Joel to be able to hate Abby in the beginning, and continuing hating her when you play with Ellie, and kill her friends, but you also have to understand Abby when you play with her, and then accept that Ellie is becoming obsessive, and after all that, that she still would forget Abby to save the last of good in her.
If you don't have this emotions in these moments, a lot of the game don't work.
For example, i don't love Joel as much as people do (the sad dad figure, for me, already have a place, and his name is Kratos).
So when you are with Ellie just killing her friends, it feels for me, that nothing was really happening.
Also, i couldn't connect with Dina and Jessie, and Tommie don't even appear that much.
@@leandromadeireira8840 Yeah I get you there.
Like I do like Joel, but I was going into this game with the mind set that he was going to die. Like I couldn't see a game plot where he wouldn't ending up dead, admittedly it happened earlier than I thought but still.
@@That_Ifrit_Guy me too, but the scene itself don't make me sad or anoyed, i just tought "already ?".
But in resume, i don't think the problem of this game, is the story that they choose to teel, but the fact it was not told in the best way possible.
There's too much weak characters, and believability problems, that the other game didn't have.
There is nothing to suggest that fireflies botched experiments with more immune people in the past. Nothing to suggest that others were immune. I truly don't know where the fuck people are getting that from.
I'm team Joel, btw. I'm just tired of people misrepresenting the situation, intentionally or otherwise.
I wonder how far HBO will go in its adaptation.
The opening was compelling, there's no denying that... But the rest of the game felt like misery porn. "Please stop! She's pregnant-!" "GOOD." That's burned into my brain as the tone of this game. Add an actual global pandemic on top of it causing more stress and depression in real life... This game felt like getting kicked while I was already down. TLOU1 was a roller coaster of ups and downs. 2 is just down, down, down, spiraling, spiraling... And sure, maybe that's the point. Just a point I didn't need, I guess.
Anyway, nice little bite-sized video to wind down from binging your back catalog. I feel whatever the *opposite* of 'brain rot' is with so much thoughtful analysis, I gotta go sleep it off.
I enjoyed the game overrall but also thought it had a lot of issues. The pacing was quite bad. The dialogue writing was very noticably off at certain points.
This video should've been called "The Last of Us Part 2 is overindulgent (and that's okay, for the first 10 minutes)" I'm really curious how You would defend the rest of this flaming trainwreck of a story.
I think The Last of Us 2 was when I truly saw how rabid people can be. I am still scared to look at ANY videos regarding this game, you're the first. Maybe this will be therapeutic heh
People sending death threats to every person in Naughty Dog because they didn't like that Joel's murder spree had consequences. People genuinely cannot fathom that a character can't be fully perfect or that opposing characters can have opposing but valid views. It's the apocalypse, you rarely have good and bad morality. Add Lev and that Ellie being gay on top of that and it fully overshadowed the actual game.
I've been hoping you'd review this game for a while, as you've shown you can cut through a lot of bias and dive really deep into your analysis. I'm a bit bummed this is the game you turned into a snippet, when it may have more to talk about than any of the other long-form videos you've done so far.
And after going through the comments, I think there are some who might benefit from having a second look at the game without all of their baggage attached.
you stab Alice and play fetch with Bear fyi
so, i'm going to leave my thoughts on the game, and try to be quick/concise about it...
More than "overindulgent" or "indulgent" i feel the game is, and this a word i only recently came to remember and associate with my feelings, *contrived* that's putting it far more succinctly than i've previously been able to. the game doesn't feel, IMO, "overindulgent" and like it "knows it's clever" it feels, to me, contrived and like it's, well frankly almost "self important" like someone who hands you a free sample of their original song, and it's not terrible, it's not "bad" per se, but it's not that good, but they then expect you to compliment it and sing its praises, and they look at you funny when you don't seem impressed.
That and the game seems to play favorites with its protagonists, i know they're trying to redeem Abby, but the methods it uses to do so almost seem a touch, "contrived" and are paralleled with almost seemingly wanting you to stop identifying with Ellie, with making you begin to think she should've just stayed home, but doesn't really apply "should've stayed home" to Abby. Also, i don't think most, certainly many, people really got the message the game was going for, and i don't think that's just because "they dipped/were assmad joel died."
One last thing: the end part, just, overall the worst part, i think most people agree on that, but removing it wouldn't make the game better, in that case what the fuck was this all for? what was the point? fucking nothing just to make Abby into a nicer kinder less dark and sinful joel figure with less friends, and batter Ellie, and kill Joel. adding it back doesn't really make the game any better either. Maybe you think "yeah, maybe they should've cut the santa barbara part, if that makes it so there's no point then good, that's the idea, revenge is bad, will leave you with less than you had, leave you broken, and is overall pointless" but if that's the grand moral message Niel was going for, -he should have made a TED talk, not a story/video game.
TLDR: So to sum it all up: game seems contrived and somewhat full of itself, inherently sides with abby, or seems to anyway,. maybe even giving in to the idea "joel was an awful person,and got what was coming to him." at least to some degree? and is inconsistent, and confusing in its overall message.
and this isn't to say, i think naughty dog, niel druckman or anyone who likes this game, should feel bad and are bad people or w/e, this is my opinion, which is: game ain't godawful dogshit, that personally offends me, nor do i think it's remotely close to groundbreaking and innovating, just didn't impress me. you may think i don't like it because i'm mad they killed joel, or "just didn't get it." and that it's moving and a boon to industry, and is elevating gaming as a medium, and is going to change the industry or genre..... i think the game was heavily flawed and just didn't impress me. and i think the main people behind the story think they've created a masterpiece. obviously i don't agree.
Incredible. Pretty much everything that you typed is incorrect.
An interesting perspective, and one I can see the logic in. Heck, I argued with someone about it myself, given they removed the main character shields for Joel right at the start, showing that not everyone is going to survive this, but then Ellie...Ellie's babymomma(I honestly can't recall her name), and Abby all survive things that just make it feel like the universe is in their favor.
From Abby literally falling down in a perfect place to allow her to run away from the approaching horde of fungus heads, to Ellie ALWAYS getting the drop on Wolf patrols, even AFTER they know she's around, and somehow they always miss her, even with automatic weapons, it becomes a noticeable thing.
Mind, worse than the ending for me was the final bossfight of act 2 of the story, Ellie vs. Abby, from Abby's POV. That, honestly, should have had another ending to it, if the player gave up and let Ellie kill her, maybe having Lev come in just afterwards, and scream that he'll kill Ellie for this. It still wouldn't be the same, given the thing that makes Abby's murder of Joel more vicious than anything any other person does in this series is, he was trying to HELP her and her group, and she just doesn't care, doesn't feel ashamed of it, and in fact, feels fulfilled at the end.
That is the big problem to me, BTW, with saying this is above 'Revenge=Bad' as the theme, as Abby certainly doesn't feel that way. Heck, the ONLY reason she's against revenge now is its against her, and her one conversation where she tries to talk about letting go of hate was so stupid that I almost quit right then. That sort of line only works if the person saying it has been trying to give up on their hate, but no, she fulfilled her hateful desire, and so to her that should be something you should use.
Heck, even near the end, there's no 'revenge will leave you empty inside' trope going on, as she honestly doesn't give to flips about Joel, and sees nothing wrong in what she did, even when it's led to the death of everyone she knows, and her way of life.
@@SageofStars not sure i totally comprehend everything ya said here, but think i agree with what i did understand, mostly. ha!
@@cobraglatiator Basically, killing Joel at the start in a brutal over the top manner because it's 'realistic' only made it more obvious when the two leads survived stuff even worse than in the first game, including whole groups of armed, organized militia types.
And if they wanted a Revenge is not the Way narrative, which is what the Joel hallucination seems to say is the point, and would be the only reason to let Abby go at the end, then Abby HERSELF needed to at some point, realize everything going after Joel had cost her, and she really doesn't, only getting mad at Ellie for seeking revenge when she left her alive.
I'll never understand the argument that the Fireflies should have woken Ellie up to ask for her opinion, like what if she says no? They're just gonna respect that? Let the plague go on when they have even a slim chance to make a cure?
The Fireflies didn't ask for her consent to sacrifice herself, but Joel knew what she wanted and acted against it.
I'm not interested in being in arguments here regarding who was 'right or wrong' or who is 'good or bad'. It's all about each characters perspective. Except David, he's evil.
Now make this an 2+ hour long essay
The story should have been told in chronological order. That way the "shocking" scenes do pay off.
Jist curious. Would we possibky be seeing a TLOU2 critique in the future?
That dream you shared at the start sounds wild. Hahaha
How complicated the characters are in this game, how many different sentiments they make you feel towards them, that is why I love this game (and the brutal combat that looks like Max Payne 3 mixed with Fear)
I can understand everyone in this game and why they did what they did
Both games are character focused, and their relationships and how complicated humans are
But people think this game have an agenda or some message like it was a kid game teaching lessons, like, that's so fucking dense, it's a character centric game, the game isn't pointing a finger at you for doing bad shit, but at Ellie, Joel and Abby
I just got this game on sale, after all the backlash it received I wasn't a fan of spending full price on it. And I was right, honestly, gameplay is amazing, polished beautiful, and perfect for what the story is about, but the writers clearly wanted to mix opposite philosophies writing the story and it shows.
NOTHING is ok about The Last of Us 2
I think it's fine, I didn't play it but watched a playthrough and while I was mad at the time now I kinda wished they moved on from Joel and Elli leaving the ending ambiguous and then we could fallow a set of completely brand new characters instead.
IT WILL NEVER BE BETTER THAN 86% score
Great video and format
I think you can (very generally) put people into 2 boxes when it comes to loving/hating this game:
- Those who hate it, think it's a massive disappointment, missed opportunity and a failure in execution
- Those who love it, appreaciate the parts that are brilliant, can overlook the mistakes and respect what they tried to do.
For me, I dislike this game. I appreaciate the good parts and artistry, but I do think it's incredibly disappointing and a failure in what it tries to do.
Hmmm. I can't say I agree about the Fireflies being child murderers (in this instance, I'm sure theyve done other terrible things) in regards to Ellie. As far as I can remember, (or maybe I'm making an assumption) they run tests on Ellie after she gets there and they determine that in order to further study the immunity she would have to die. They didn't always know if I'm remembering correctly and that was determined while she was knocked out. Regardless of that, Ellie's immunity at that point in regards to the story is symbolic of hope, for both her and humanity. Joel takes away her agency in that regard.
Think you're making assumptions, almost all if not all collectables regarding the fireflies in 1 point to them being incompetent. As for taking her agency you can't have your cake and eat it too, the fireflies deciding to kill her without her knowing takes her agency first, the lie is arguably worse than killing the surgeon
I loved the first one, I even went to an event to play it a few months before release.
So to say I was hyped for the sequel is an understatement. I wasn’t angry that Joel died, I was definitely impacted more by the flashback moments as a result. I certainly wasn’t put off by a trans character as Druckmann decided to pin the negative reactions to in desperation.
What I hated was spending 12-15 hours playing the game only to have to spend another 12 hours playing as a thoroughly unlikeable character where it is being forced way too hard that “hey everyone has their own side of the story to tell”
I just wanted it to end. And then it did, and my god it was unsatisfying.
As someone who does not like this game, the praise you have for the Joel/Ellie scenes certainly is on point. They’re wonderful.
Oh yes, this game, all of the review videos and essay videos forgot to mention that this game is about ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE.
the zombies are a backdrop that give morality a different scale. it's not about them at all and it never was
I kinda want to see a review of Stranger of Paradise.
The Last of Us 2 is one of the best games ever made purely because of how it has this ability to effortlessly make people so passionately angry about its existence regardless of whether they like it or not
You make good videos.
TLOU2. Masterpiece.Period.
underrated channel
What was the song at the beginning
lmao somehow every Last of Us video on this channel bombed
Not really, in fact it's above the curve for his 'First 10 Minutes' series which it's part of. That said, compared to his long form analysis or the 'my significant other played' series, it's certainly not as popular.
Amazing goatee Monty
Very interesting. After reading though many many comments, I think the majority of people that criticize the game should go watch Girlfriend Reviews “Understanding The Last of Us Part 2.” It’s a short 10 minute video and she manages to touch on a lot and i haven’t heard anything out it the way she puts it. Even if you disagree with her view of the game, it’s an entertaining video
Love the video Monty, but there were no other immune characters in The Last of Us. Nowhere in the surgeon’s recording does it state there are. This is a pretty popular misconception because he mentions “past cases” but he’s not talking about immune people, but other infected patients and how Ellie has a completely different biological reaction to the infection. Joel completely fabricated the “other immune people” part, and it seems like he actually convinced a lot of people that this was true lol. Still doesn’t excuse the Fireflies actions though.
I came to the game for a continuation to a story about flawed characters with complicated issues dealing with a zombie infested world. Instead I got a story about braindead morons doing braindead things, getting absolutely nowhere and doing nothing with the setting the story used to focus on. If one promises a mature story, then it better be mature, not some tv drama bs. God of War Ragnarök is a much better exploration of the theme of vengeance, because the characters aren't some brain dead glue sniffers claiming to be adults.
Damn a controversial opinion 2 years late
Sekiro is The Last of Us but in Japan.
Hey Monty, what happened to your Outer Wilds video? I started watching it and stopped so I could play it myself. I bought it and played it and went back to try and watch it but it's not on your channel anymore.
It's okay to be overindulgent, but I draw the line at being a coward when you do it. TLoU2 is cowardly, because it very clearly paints Abby as in the right for what she did, even retconning the previous game if necessary. Abby is never challenged for her actions, and never has to question if it was wrong at any point in the story. Killing the man who killed your father is an age-old trope, but when Inigo Montoya kills Count Reugen, we root for him because we know Count Rugen is a despicable man even outside of Inigo's backstory. When Abby kills Joel, it's on the tail end of him saving her life, so when she commits to it without hesitation, the audience is being primed to hate her for this act of cruel bloodlust. After that point, Abby is very clearly the villain, but the entire rest of the game works so hard to not only put her into the hero's seat, but even tries to draw a through-line between her and Joel to get the audience to sympathize with her, and based on the divisive response, it clearly failed. Had Abby introspected about what she did and why, and even changed her mind or tried to redeem herself to Ellie, she might have been well-received, but the game, and its writers, were too afraid to undermine her relentless dogma to her own moral righteousness. Because of this, TLoU2 will forever be remembered as a violent, incoherent revenge-fest where all characters are killed, either in the universe, or through character assassination.
Yeah, i agree with you in some way, but I don't think that the game draws Abby as the hero, i think it only makes you realise she had a reason, and playing with her, for me, it's not about about making her "good', but making you realise that, even that she kills Joel, this act it's not what defines her, she is not only a asshole who killed him, and i think that this is some of the themes of the game, that you can't judge a person, only for one single act (of course, i'm excluding things like rape and etc).
About her not regretting killing Joel, i think it's ok, even that he saved her life, he still is for her the guy who just killed her father, like, would you forget the person who killed your father, that you planed revenge and hated for all your life, only because he saved you ?,minutes after you meet him, Some people wouldn't, and it's reasonable for me.
And the game even makes clear that this didn't make her feel better, my biggest problem with her is when she kills the wlf, she doesn't even makes a comment, that's weird.
The game isn't trying to say what she did was right, it just wants you to UNDERSTAND WHY she did it. Those are two completely different things. I don't think she did the right thing by killing Joel, but I can definitely see why she did. If I was in her shoes, I might've done the same thing. It doesn't matter that Joel just rescued her, he's still the man that killed her father. One good deed isn't going to make her move past that.
Abby's story is about a woman who finally got the revenge she's been seeking for years, only to realize it's brought her zero catharsis. The only way forward is to try to redeem herself and find something new to live for, which is what Lev and Yara help her achieve.
What the fucj are you smoking
@@yourneighbormordecai exactly
@@yourneighbormordecai I understand why she did it, it just comes off as psychopathic as possible. It appears like she would have done it no matter the situation or motive. She didn't even have the gull to question his motives while torturing him, showing us that she's only running on emotion even after years of contemplation. This comes off as a lesser David level character that the story is trying to show as different, which rubs people like me the wrong way.
Thinking about it, the timeline really made things worse. It's much more understandable to be running on emotions a few weeks after the incident, rather than have years to contemplate your enemies actions. Ironically Joel's assault on the compound is a great comparison for this as he was acting in the moment on pure emotion.
I hate the take that Elle wouldnt have been the cure. It takes ALL of the meaning out of Joel's decision. I like the idea that Joel decided to doom the world to save his second daughter
Yep!! Even this video, despite the guy being very analytical in so many of the other videos I've seen from him... He gets details of the scenario incorrect.
There's nothing to suggest that Firefly killed other immune people in the past. Have they spent years experimenting? Yes. Have some.people.died, maybe. Nothing states that other people were killed in experiments. As far as we know, only monkeys were experimented on, and infected clickers and runners etc were experimented on (fungal x-ray at the University)
But regardless of all of this, I'm still team Joel tho. In absence of Ellie being informed or given a choice (which I get. I get why the fireflies didn't do that), I think he made an executive decision to get her out of there.
Part 2 is a beautiful train wreck that I still pretend doesn't exist and will continue to pretend.
Hey. Does anyone know the song that plays in the background of the video?
Amazing video btw!
It was a really really bad game compared to the first one.
This video does more to ease my anger about the last of us 2 than any other argument in the last 2 ish years, it’s not enough! Not even close I don’t think but it’s certainly the best one so far
Fuck yea new video
would u like your girlfriend to try Shadow of the Colossus
I just finished it. Spent $10 on it. I liked 80% of it. The pacing was unpleasant and I didn't like the order of events but the ending was better than most other zombie stories.
Part of the first 1k poggers
I love this game, but it’s one that really needs to be iterated upon further. In a vacuum, as much as I applaud Druckmann for the narrative here (even if there are things I would change), if this were to be where the series ends, it would actually tarnish the first, retroactively in my eyes, despite being an incredible ride regardless. As a depressing romp where character arcs remain unfulfilled, I can understand where many may find it a disappointment.
Abby needs to have her arc of repentance for what she’s done brought full circle; there needs to be introspection regarding the futility of revenge for her, just as there was for Ellie. And Ellie? She needs to find purpose again beyond herself.
I think they need to fix the pacing issues, myself. Develop the relationships more as well, esp with fucking DINA and JESSE. Like, god damn.
Abby's arc is more or less complete
As for Ellie, she absolutely needs to find a new purpose and heal and figure stuff out. That's precisely what a Part 3 would be for.
ND will almost certainly make a Part 3. But as things stand right now... I don't think that Part 2 tarnishes anything.
Even though Ellie's arc, et large, is incomplete without a third game... Her arc within the second game is still fulfilled. Just because the character ends a story at a downer of a place (Ellie actually is doing better than it may appear), doesn't mean that it's a bad thing.
Anyone who tries to justify Joel for the hospital scene missed the point. It doesn’t matter how bad or incompetent the Fireflies were because Joel DIDNT know that. That is information only the player has. And if they did seek out all the notes and such to lead to that conclusion in the game, it still doesn’t matter.
Joel doesn’t do what he does because of some knowledge that the Fireflies aren’t great people or that the procedure may not work. He does what he does to prevent Ellie from dying. Period.
"He does what he does to prevent Ellie from dying. Period."
Yeah, most people are aware of that. They're not speaking from the perspective of Joel. Having the bird's eye view of everything lets US examine the situation in a way HE couldn't.
I know this is a stretch. But God of War Ragnarok did what TLOU2 couldn't do in terms of storytelling. Spoilers below!!!!
It handed the mantle of main character from our beloved lead to the next younger character in a fantastic way.
The story was phenomenal. I don't mind that overindulgence, but what got to me was how long the game was. Way too much overindulgence in the gameplay. I was bored of the gameplay nearing the end and just wanted to see how the story went. Trim 5 - 10 hours off the game and it would have been perfect.
The last of us 2 is a great game with a good story that’s told absolutely awfully it should’ve been split up into two separate games part 2 should’ve been Abby’s story and it should’ve concluded with part 3 on Ellie’s story
TLOU2 was absolute trash. Nothing about it made even a lick of sense and if they're smart the show runners will completely revamp the second season of the HBO series.
God, every scene of this game is just absolute unadulterated emotional damage. I don't think there's necessarily anything indulgent about what ND gets up to in this intro, and if there is then, Christ, I wish games would indulge like this more often.
1st & foremost it's a bad game. Hi btw
Its a Ok game, the Gameplay is great, but the story is Shit!
@@DrahkenBlack Wrong way round. Story was one of the best ever in a video game. But the gameplay was a drag and went on 5-10 hours too long.
@@DrahkenBlack The gameplay is mediocre, it's only saving grace is the violent showcase.
@@DrahkenBlack💯
The game came out at a time where people wanted to escape from the horrors of the pandemic and it added more sadness and pain
The sentiment that it's okay to be pissed if an experience wasn't what you wanted is baffling to me.
Like, that's basically demanding that anyone only ever cater to your wants and can have no creativity or ideas of their own in case it doesn't mesh with what you want.
Surely we want more that just insipid fanservice?
To the fan service point, that’s not what I said or something any of my videos should give the impression I believe.
But yes - if you pay money for something and it doesn’t give you what it’s marketing leads you to expect/want from it, I think it’s reasonable to be upset. Especially with TLOU2 where the trailers were deliberately faked to include Joel in scenes he wasn’t in.
Again, I like the game a lot. But I didn’t expect to pay 60 dollars for a game explicitly designed to upset me. I’m just lucky that I enjoy games like that. Some people don’t, so I understand them being pissed at release.
"Being pissed" and "demanding that anyone only ever cater to your wants and can have no creativity or ideas of their own in case it doesn't mesh with what you want" are not the same thing, just so you know. Stephen King was pissed with how Kubrick made The Shining initially. He never demanded people adapting his work cater to his whims though.
Overindulgent? That’s one word for it. 🙄
It’s a really good game. It’s not perfect for me. I don’t think the first one is either, hype hinders everything.
ND has no respect for fans of the first game, TLoU2 is the cashiest of cash grabs
You absolutely do not know what the word "cashgrab" means.
Modern journalist titles be like "Taxes are higher and why it's okay!"
Reason #1: You give the government more money.
for me, the game went from the bland Ellie part to batshit absurd Abby part which is also the most exciting part because how unintentionally funny it can be
Revenge Bad Of Us Part 2
the game isn't about revenge
the first 10 minutes are a promise of something that we never got, I thought of it as "the trailer was better" movies
It's indulgent for sure but then it becomes awkwardly manipulative in the Abby section that kills all the pacing, it's really awkward and reeks of "well we didn't know what to do for the player to empathize or sympathize with her" and yes, hindsight is 20/20 but while making the game for such a long time someone had to know that...man, Abby kinda sucks doesn't she?
Huh, a reviewer who remembers that the Fireflies were monsters in the last game whose actions have killed at least half a dozen people of varying resistances to something so dangerous that it has literally collapsed global society. The nature of insanity and all, but the fact that they have such a low success rate is probably the reason they didn't tell Joel or Ellie what was about to happen.
That said, good stuff here, I can agree with most of it. I'd go into a long ass rant about how Abby and Ellie should have both died at the end of this game to complete the hollow revenge narrative they were going for...or let Ellie kill Abby during the boss fight and give you an alternate ending as more than one streamer was sad to see they didn't have.
To be fair, I'm one of those who didn't like Joel. He was up there with Nathan Drake for my disliked people I'd been forced to spend time in a game with, and I wanted them both to die. Sadly, only Joel does. Worst, BTW, is Deacon St. John, that dude deserves to get eaten.
I was with you until the end-what the fuck?
@@mrjtfang2 What? Joel is a monster too by the time he runs into Ellie. Sarah and Ellie drag him back into the light, but he doesn't actually find redemption in that, as the first step is to admit you were wrong, and he never does...also there was not a reason to lie to Ellie IMO, as all he had to say was they were quacks who didn't know what they were doing and had killed everyone they tried to get a 'cure' from. I think Ellie would have understood that...though sadly, as those were 'optional' audio logs to find, the narrative could not be sure you found them.
Also, if it's about John, that dude is a monster worse than even Spec Ops' main character. At least that guy had orders to say he was follow. Deacon St. John killed at least 4 people who know of, maimed at least one more nearly killing him by burning off a tattoo on his back, AND supported a struggle snuggle enthusiast because 'he was one of my guys'. And he did all that BEFORE the zombies. He deserves to be torn apart by a horde.
@@mrjtfang2 They're one of those "Self defense shouldn't be a thing" kind of people.
@@crazyinsane500 Indeed, it's one of the reasons I hated both the Fireflys and the Wolves in both games. They basically attack anyone who has something they want, and if you fight back, 'Crime of Self Defense' is invoked by them. In 2's case Abby follows this up with some 'Revenge Myopia', both of which are my least favorite tropes in story telling.
The first because, when you get right down to it, the mental gymnastics required render anything else that character says are does moot. They are a terrible person, and nothing you do to make them seem sympathetic can ever work(Read Director Tiedman of Dead Space 2, who has several audiologs and backstory elements trying to make him seem like a good man pushed to do bad things...but then when you have the utter gal not to die for him, he gets mad at you).
The second CAN work, but it takes a special kind of person to pull it off and still be a compelling character at the end of the day, and a lot of the examples I can think of come from fanfiction, because those are more in tune with what the reader wants in a story than something produce for more mass audience type of thing(Or for a self indulgent author).
Either trait can make it so a character is a mad dog that needs to be put down. The two together make them unlikeable.
@@SageofStars The source of this problem is the director/writer doesn't see Abby/the Fireflies as bad, and it's because he's of a certain subset of the "self-defense is evil" crowd: *Predators.*
Neil Druckmann, writer/director of TLOU2 helped to protect sexual predator Robert Cogburn by firing Cogburn's victims. This kinda explains why these narrative choices were made to have the entire story revolve around victim blaming and idolizing people who unrepentantly harm others without remorse.
And the effects of this come through in the form of TLOU2 fans. You can test this yourself but not a single one of them who says things like "Joel doomed humanity" or "Abby suffered too" will condemn real life evil people like Cogburn, Cosby, and Weinstein. TLOU2 teaches the uncritical that these people, in real life, are good people. They won't say it out loud, but they sure won't say otherwise.
It’s not a bad game. The first one just set the bar so high that it was near impossible to meet expectations. People are impossible to please so.
what about the wokeness?
You cannot be serious.
If you look at a complex piece of art like this and the criticism you have and care about is that it was "too woke" for you, you should stick to picture books.
Ghosts of tsushima deserved game of the year, this game is 💩💩💩💩