Alfa Romeo V6 DTM: A 12,000rpm French Engine
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- Опубликовано: 3 ноя 2023
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The base of the 90 degr. was the Lancia Thema V6 engine which was based on the RPV cooperation. Except V90 angle and bore distances there were no common parts with the RPV engine, but was a completely new constructions of the Lancia race department. So it was really an Italian race engine.
Yes, exactly
Engine block was the same. Alfa made new heads, but block was PRV as homollogation required. So, it was tuned PRV
@@user-so4rb4sp4s The block would have been a specialised cast or billet racing block with no PRV parts. The homologation is just a piece of paper with the cylinder bore spacing written on it, nothing more.
this is some good info, ty guys
@@alexjenner1108Using your anallogy, this PRV-Alfa was more Alfa than Alfa V8 without two cylinders. There is no shame here being put on Alfa, besides Alfa was manufacturing under licence several Renault models including Dauphine, 8 and 4.
If they didn't feel bad about it why should any Alfa fan? You'll never hear fan of Renault or Volvo saying "No Peugeot WM P88 with 900HP reaching 407 kph wasn't PRV, it was just angle.
I love DTM. This was definitely part of the Golden age of racing
Even today DTM still rocks.
What a beast ❤242 lbs. 420 hp, 11800 rpm in 94, what a design, great sound in real life, vids don’t do a slice of justice to there screaming valve-train😊
I enjoyed this car and the Calibra too in Gran Turismo 2 😍
I've always liked the Alfa! Love that V6 sound!
Amen, But still : No Turbo - No Fun !!! ! !!! 😀
30 years on and this car still gives ptsd to ze germans
Can confirm, we did nazi that coming.
@@hitleradolf3721I can’t tell what’s better, the joke or the username to reinforce it😂😂
@@JJ-xw7im best part is, I'm a Jewish American. Inappropriate humor is my favorite.
the later mercedes' beat them
Good
France, Germany, Italy, and the UK all fighting for motorsports is the best fighting. The 70's and 80's was a crazy time. Great vid, Visioracer.
One of my favorite cars of all time 😊
I saw race once and I was hooked on the looks and sound! Gran Turismo was the closest I ever got to racing one.
Sorry Man, but the 1996 Alfa Engine was not French. In the same interview you say, Sergio Limone says that the technical aspects to respect for the new regulamentation were the angle of the V for V6 engine and the the distance from the centers of the cylindres. So, on the documents were released the Montreal V6, but it has too short distances between cylindres, and thanks to a society in the last years of the 80s, Lancia and Alfa were the same Brand, and the PRV equipped the Lancia Thema 6V and the Lancia Thema Limousine, so it was addicted to have the technician values to can be used as shield... the V6 1996 Alfa engine was in experimentation from 1994, and Nannini tested it after the initial develop of Giorgio Francia...
It was not, but that’s not as important. The base was a Swedo-French developed engine that was turned upside down into a full race engine. The “French” is there just to catch attention. You see, making a viewer click on the video is harder these years, don’t get too excited about a single title word, just enjoy the full length video which is made without assumptions, only with pure facts. Peace
Peugeot used same engine at Le Mans, the famous 405 kph record.
@@user-so4rb4sp4s no that was a PRV engine.
@@VisioRacer I come in peace and sorry if my words seems "violent", I know perfectly it's hard to get clicks, but with a click bait title you have should expect comment like mine... Nice video anyway! have a nice day ^^
@@user-so4rb4sp4s PSA engine-base was exactly the PRV, Alfa used only tecnical aspect of that engine... ^^
Back in the 90's I owned an Alfa with a 3 litre V6. 😁 Great car!
Getting real Sega Touring Car Championship vibes here.
Best looking and sounding dtm ever made
The Audi V8 that was competing in dtm looked better imo
I love the DTM cars, I hope to see more videos on other manufacturers like Mercedes, Opel...
Great video. DTM was certainly a "rough and tumble" racing series, in a way that open wheeled formula cars can never be. It was great to watch, and have a favorite team/driver to follow.
Its nascar but its not on a roundy-round circuit.
@@HerrZenki I agree with your analogy. I live in the U.S., and these DTM drivers seem as if they mash up their machinery at least as much or more than NASCAR drivers. The NASCAR "bull rings" like Bristol are small, and where they usually beat up the cars pretty good! Also, on a road course like Sonoma or Watkins Glen.
I really do like the DTM racing though!
@@hugejohnson5011 if you saw some old dtm footage, some of them really did stick their elbows out...to the point that only manhole covers could stop them!
@@HerrZenki Just in the limited footage I have seen, I have noticed some pretty torn up cars still in the battle! I can't imagine that the aero is quite as much a factor, compared to a NASCAR on a super speedway, like Talladega. Thanks for the feedback.
@@HerrZenkiI would say Australian v8 supercars in the early 2000’s are the closest to that, very limited aero, solid rear axle, no traction, and big v8’s going around a proper circuit. Def worth checking out if you havent
This is what the F1 V6 engines should sound like, they could rev up to 15k rpm, be sized up to 2 liters and remove the hybrid system, or make it smaller and lighter. Boom, more power, more sound, more fans, more revenue but they're caring about "environment"
Exactly
Seems like someone studied Cironi's videos 😅 good job
This is one of my top 3 cars ever built, it's simply F1 tech in a street looking derivative racecar, it was 20/30 years ahead of others racing series. It marked a peak in technology development before the electrification and computer era (despite the super advanced systems for that time).
❤
I did not study the video, I read lots of other articles around the web ✌🏻
@@VisioRacer yeah, was clear you read many other sources, I was just joking a bit.
Howeva great detailed job
💪 keep it up
0:17 Lol that cone in frot grill:):)
I really love first version Alfa with those cool 4 curved up exhaust ends.
And Alfa still racing in Hill Climb Racing.
Those were the days. Wonderful racing car. Nice video as always 👍🙂
Touring car racing is just the great
Great story. Superb explication and explanation. Thank you. Well worth being a patron. Cheers from NZ🇳🇿.
I love the sound difference between induction and exhaust as it goes by.
Wow! I'll have to find DTM races of that time. The sound of the engine alone is incredible! Thank you for highlighting this engineering marvel! J :-)
Brilliant video pal never fails please do lots of these 80s and 90s Motorsport stories
Thanks for another awesome video!
Truly iconic race car , made so many Sundays special for me as a kid .
Bellissime gare, altissima tecnologia ma i piloti contavano ancora molto
Bravo e grazie per il video
From Wikipedia about the engine:
The PRV was also the basis for the 90° V6 engine used by Alfa Romeo in the 155 V6 Ti in the 1996 DTM/ITC season from Silverstone onwards.The engines in that series required the use of bank separation angle and cylinder bore spacing from a production based engine, and as a 90° V6 has greater room between banks than a 60° V6 for a more optimal induction system, Alfa Romeo used the PRV as a basis as it had been used in the Lancia Thema, a car which shared its platform with the Alfa Romeo 164, as well as the Fiat Croma and Saab 9000.
Other sources declare that the 90° V6 engine in 1996 Alfa Romeo 155 V6 Ti is based on a 2.6 L V8 from 1970 Alfa Romeo Montreal with two cylinders removed, as allowed by the rules, however the FIA homologation documentation shows the homologated production engine was a "2850cm³" capacity "V6" engine. The bore spacing of the Montreal engine was too close to be suitable for the 155 V6 Ti in any case. Limone invented the "Montreal V8" story to throw the press off the scent and to satisfy FIAT management who were unhappy that a non-FIAT group developed engine was being used.
A grande overview, mon cheri.
The car vaguely resembled a 155 road car and that's about all it had to do with it. It was a purpose built racing beast, take note F1 this is what a V6 SHOULD sound like.
As an Italian my love for that Alfa it's something else 🥰
Amazing video as always, great information, footage, and research. I love your work, keep it up.
Since 1993 Alfa Romeo used the Italian V6 Busso (V6 60° 470 hp) engine for the 155 DTM . In 1996 Alfa Romeo used the French PRV V6 90° engine modified by Alfa Romeo to reach 490 hp
No videogame nails that tone. Whenever someone says v6 engines sound like shit I point them to this and the Lancia stratos.
Super video.
absolute beauty
Highly interesting video with some new facts that I never thought about. Such as less valve train vibrations on the gearbox side, which other engines has the same design because of this reason? And the PRV6, a highly disliked engine among car enthusiast in Scandinavia, being used as a building ground in DTM!? Crazy stuff
Una delle auto da corsa più bella e affascinante di sempre!
Dream car right there.
That car sings a sweet song 🎵
I love driving this car in Gran Turismo!
One of my favourite cars in grand tourismo
155 2.5 V6 TI DTM 😍😍🔥🔥🔥
PRV Stands for Peugeot/Renault/Volvo. The PRV engine was even used in the Delorean DMC12
Never Alfa used the PRV. The competition fa engine has only the same intercentre piston measure. This engine was totally new and designed by ING. Limone.
I support this content.
WoooHooo, that's a sweet little engine
Era só isto 🍀❤️
Absolutely gorgeous machine, if i had the cash id do a full rep except losing all the interior. Please run a full video on the btcc version which absolutely dominated with tarquienie at the wheel . Cheers 👍✌🏻
Yes please. I was at Brands Hatch for the BTCC and one of these cars was parked on a trailer in a public area behind the main grandstand, IE not in the paddock or pits.
I took the opportunity to get on the ground under the trailer and have a good look.
Those were the days.
@@philiptownsend4026 that would have been an amazing opportunity, im jealous. We had a new black 155 1.8 ts at the time tarquienie was dominating. Loved that car, even the motors rocker cover looked great. Aluminium with alfa romeo in red. Hopefully we get a video on the btcc model you actually got to see up close.definitely that was my favourite btcc era 👌🏻
I'm just here for the noise.
did I get this right? final version had 490 hp? man 😮 what a beast
Yess
Nearly 200bhp/liter N/A 😮
Sounds better than today F-1. 💪
It's kinda ironic that one of the most loathed production car V6 engine is also one of the most successful in racing competition... and also the engine of one of the most iconic movie car (DeLorean DMC-12).
🔥🔥🔥
That's an interesting film, thanks. I think it's stretching the truth to say it ran a French engine. It didn't. Yes, it was loosely based on the PRV block in terms of measurements and layout but beyond that there were few similarities. It's a bit like saying the early Bugattis were French cars, when of course they weren't at all.
Wasn't a french engine. Nothing wrong with french engines but this just wasn't one.
If you watch Sergio Limone [the engineer who homologated the engine for the class] by Davide Cironi [it's available with English subtitles and more] he clearly says it was just the same bore spacing and bank angle of the PRV. The whole engine was completely done by Alfa Corse based on those two parameters.
ruclips.net/video/DRcFpmQL3bc/видео.htmlsi=cT5WjeDi0VY7CF9c
cope
@@littlepeugeot8341 wouldn't be a problem if it was the case, I love french cars. But this is simply isn't.
Yes, I am aware of that. It’s just a clickbait which is not far from the truth, because in the basics, it was the PRV that powered the DTM car. They needed that bore spacing and 90° angle and it was nowhere else around.
@@VisioRacer well I guess the click bait worked lol
Please do more DTM videos
And BTCC please.
Only the later evolutions used that new V6, the 93 one had a narrow angle v6
Yes, that’s what the video says
Dear friend, this is incorrect, in the video by Cironi that you are using, LIMONE clarify that the engine only shares the V angle with the PVR and nothing else, moreover, FIAT was going to abandon the DTM so they didn't want ANY new engine development, LIMONE and his team basically went rogue and launched this new engine. Again this is not a PRV, this is a brand new engine made by Pino Aprile that shares the V angle with the PRV.
beats the germans at their own game🔥
nope, the later mercedes beat them
I,m sorry, but I cannot agree with the text french engine: its the 90° V6 concept that comes from peugeot/volvo co-enginering. Alfa used this CONCEPT to solve the cooling problem that the 60° engine had. The engine was further on totaly alfa romeo
Yes, it was indeed
I wish my naturally aspirated v6 would develop 200hp per liter!!! So impressive!
But it wouldn't be drive able! Race engines can only run flat out, that's all they need to do.
Wow, I remember this F from granturismo 2
Wait wait wait....
Sergio Limone in the Davide Cironi's video tells another story.
They were in struggle finding an engine in Alfa Romeo's history with the needed dimensions, the rules needed only that, so V angle and the bore spacing to allow the right bore diameter to reach high rpm.
Since they were and are in the FIAT galaxy, they had the option of using the PRV dimensions, since FIAT was part of the PSA joint venture.
But that's NOT A FRENCH ENGINE.
It has only the V angle and bore spacing of the PRV, just for rules needs, but it was completely engineered by Alfa Corse.
Don't spread wrong claims, please.
Eh so ragazzi,magari inglesi o francesi e magari pure un po' invidiosi. I tedeschi non possono insegnarci nulla in fatto di motori, figuriamoci gli inglesi e ancor di più i francesi....😂
@@massimilianocampana3951Tutti hanno da insegnare e da imparare, ogni produttore ha avuto meriti e primati.
La questione è che è stato riportato il falso (clickbait).
amazing info...I had no idea...always thought the 155 DTM was strictly Busso...go figure in what weird places you find PRV 90 degree V sixes...Delorean...Alpine A310...amazing...I once read somewhere that the V6 in the 155 DTM (don't know which one Busso or PRV) was built to such high tolerances that the head, block and sump went together without gaskets...but I can't find anything about that now anymore
12,000 rpm and French makes me very nervous
It isn't French in any way. It was designed and built by Italians in Italy. So no need to worry.
Why do I have a feeling these sounds will be the type we will be hearing in Formula 1 in 2026...
We all hope so ;-)
133mm bore spacing?!!! Did I hear that correctly?
Probably a mistake, most likely is 13.3mm
@@taketaa5299 doubt it's a mistake. Looking at images of the Busso block, 133mm between the cylinder bore centres seems reasonable.
Bigger than I'd have expected though. 133mm is a huge bore spacing for any car engine
@niia.3642 oh yeah, without a doubt. I was referring the 13.3mm as the wall to wall cylinder space but that make sense
It went to re-check that and there is rarely mentioned the Busso’s bore spacing, only two sources I was able to find say the 133 mm figure. Indeed ridiculously wide, but seems legit looking at the engine deck
@VisioRacer That's awesome! I was just shocked that something that wasn't an industrial or large truck engine had bore spacing that wide.
Interesting so the 90 degree V6 only came in 96. I thought the Twinspark was only in the 96 engine but it seems that from this video even the 95 60 degree V6 engine also had the Twinspark heads.
Well, now you know
I might say this is formula 1 engine by today rules
I believe del V 60 degrees was the who destroyed the Germans in their own championship then it was used the V 90 degrees from Alfa Lancia based on PRV engine and then it arrives issue to finish races and don’t forget own they ruined Nannini championship with the worst unfair game to make him spin while was in a position to win.
Eh could you do vauxhall calibra nxt, v6rule btw🎉 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
👍👍
As much as I love the M3, the Alfa was such a good looking and sounding car!! And it made the arrogance of the Germans turn into humble boys. BTW in the early days the other drivers lightly pushed the exhaust pipes to slow them down, after that straight pipes were used.
Insomma, ragazzi, un po' alla volta scooriremo che la 155 DTM era un'auto francese con adesivi Alfa 😂
La meccanica invece era Lancia, quella si
FORZA RAGAZZZZI
🍀🤍💋
Misleading title, in your opinion the team of engineers who created the engine of the Lancia Delta S4 (700-800 HP), the first car without turbolag, needed to go and get an engine block from somewhere else, if they hadn't been forced by budget reasons and various regulations.
Engineer Limoni and Engineer Lombardi are among the protagonists of the Delta S4 Engine and Lombardi is the designer of the Ferrari F1 V12, the engine with the most beautiful song ever, the one on which Senna complimented Lombardi for the incredible acceleration; the same engine that Schumacher wanted to keep instead of the V10
It’s not misleading, they “used” a French engine to beat the rules and by used they meant as a scapegoat to get the design parameters they wanted. Too many people misunderstanding that. If not for the PRV bore spacing and bank angle, they wouldn’t have had the same results from the busso architecture. We all know the engines were 100% Italian designed and 100% race spec
They used a prv in a successful race car!? Wow...20 years after they came out!?
No. The only similarity was the V angle and bore spacing. Everything else built by Italians around those two parameters.
Are you telling me that they built a touring car engine out of a Delorean?
😂😂😂 A+ nobody else seems to get the joke.
@@_..-.._..-.._ I thought it was quite clever myself.
At least one person got it 🤜
Absolutely nooooo. Listen to the whole video again so you understand what was said.
@@philiptownsend4026 PRV engine was used, so I'm correct.
Do a video covering the most tuneable snowmobile engines
I think you should narrow that down. Maybe the evolution of hillclimb sleds or the 4 stroke takeover and turbos.
why cant we have something like this nowadays?
Simple... Politics!
Nicola Larini 4ever❤❤❤
This begs the question, would those Alfa Romeo PRV6 parts fit the PRV6 in a Volvo 260?
Because that would be hilarious.
The race engine, used in last models, has only some dimensions in common with RPV engine (used in a Lancia model).
The only PRV parts used would be the homologation form with 90 degrees and 108 mm printed on that, so I'm pretty sure that piece of paper would fit in the glove box.
Absolute great car but in the end Opel become the most advanced car of the series.
Sounds just like an F1 car.
With this car alfa mashed up the DTM. I loved this time, when formula 1 was interesting. didn't watch F1 since 20 years, too boring. Rally and hillclimb are much more entertainment. And Goodwood. Quattro and Walter.... wish that times back.
Interesting video. My only critique would be that the narration is a bit hard to follow at times due to the overall pronunciation.
Learn to adapt. Mr Visio is a Slovak and speaks excellent English. Yes he has an accent but don't we all? Tolerance needed. Enjoy the rich English language spoken differently around the world and even differently within single countries.
Are you American by any chance?
@@philiptownsend4026 I agree with you wholeheartedly - I am Dutch and fond of accents actually. But to me that doesnt make the narration less hard to follow.
They did at first
❤🇮🇹
I would love to put one of them engines on a three-wheel trike or a spider that thing wood sound awesome😂😂👍👍
Lol…a French engine designed by an Italian (& probly in Italy).
This engine has only the 90 degrees angle in common with PRV. The other parts were engineered by ex Lancia Martini team. This is NOT a french engine. After that you have to remember that Alfa won DTM with the original Alfa V6 engine with 60 dr angle…
✋🏼🇦🇺👍🏼
🚗❤🇮🇹
It's funny because the PRV was originally seen as a mediocre, out of balance engine, still showing symptoms of an amputated V8
It's still the holder of speed record on a circuit. Since it was made on a long straight line at LeMans that doesn't exist anymore, it will probably keep this record forever.
The PRV road version was still a mediocre engine compared with the busso. The Alfa V90 degrees had nothing to do with the PRV, they kept only the principal geometries and nothing else according to regulations.
@@barukd sorry but in 12v the busso was providing more or less the same power output as the PRV.
The DOHC 24s n/a PRV was 200hp (sadly only used in boring cars), the busso was the same output but with 200cc more displacement, so...
Twin turbo intercooled PRVs were in the 400hp figures ^^' (Venturi, extremely rare road legal french sports cars).
@@barukdAlpine A610
@@Damien.D from my understanding that Le Mans record was set by cruising around, then doing one fast lap, then the car was overheated and didn't finish the race. The engine used in the Alfa Romeo 155 DTM in the final years just used the homologation form with 90 degrees and 108 mm printed on to build a proper race engine. No actual PRV engine parts.
Mercedes was the most unsportive team in those days... their cars rearended Alfa Romeo cars, and damagede their exhaustpipes....
I loved DTM & BTCC racing.
It's a shame Aussie touring car racing is now V8 only
French? FRENCH? You're telling me that Alfa Romeo is French? That's like telling me that Helluva Boss has been approved to air on Indonesian TV (complete with Indonesian dubbing), or that Aston Martin is currently the championship leader in F1
Chill out. Just watch the video and don’t take the title too seriously
And what is wrong with French?
No no no no no. You misunderstand.
@@VisioRacer I know it's a bit late for a return reply (21 June 2024), but good god you got me there with that title. I mean, "French" and "Alfa Romeo" in the same sentence (Alfa Romeo is Italian) just doesn't make sense to me
Avevano in comune solo l angolo della V e l interasse dei cilindri
delorean engine
Was an Italian engineer not French!!!!!!!!
Not sure who make this video but the engine was 100% Italian!!!!!
Lies. Alfa Romeo did use their own engine. Just not based on the one found on the production cars