SHORT SUBJECT #3 Climb Milling vs Conventional tubalcain
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- Опубликовано: 16 окт 2024
- This is video 3 of the short subject series. These vids will be very short (5 to 10 min. or less).
Let me know if you like the format. If this works, there will be lots more.
EXTRA: -----SHORT VIDEO CLIP AT 7:50 DISCLOSING
THE SETUP ERRORS IN MY VIDEO---
"SHORT SUBJECT #2 BAD LATHE SETUP tubalcain"
#bridgeportmill#southbendmill#machineshop#southbendlathe#atlaslathe#loganlathe
The file on the ways scared me! Thank you for showing the tape!
As always, superb Mr. Pete. I especially enjoyed you engaging your audience in Safety in an entertaining and engaging way showing that Safety does not have to be boring! 👍
Many thanks!
Mr. Pete, thanks for the continuing education on all things machine shop related. I picked out most of the safety violations, but not all. I watch all of your videos from start to finish and truly appreciate all the time and effort you put into educating me and many others. Please continue to teach me the correct way to do things!
Thank you very much
You are the RUclips shop teacher , and I keep on learning. Thank you
Thanks
Great video! I have small hobby level equipment and am not a professional machinist. I think there are a lot of us. We aren't going to cnc, we aren't going to CAD, we ARE going to try to do our best work without those things. Your videos help. Thank you.
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Absolutely I’ll second that!👍🏻
@@tmurray1972 Me too.
Thanks, Mr Pete. I always enjoy your videos. I have a Sheldon horizontal mill (with vertical head attachment) and an old Logan lathe, so I find your content particularly relevant to how I work. I also do a lot of shopping for old tools and your videos have helped me recognize some of the more obscure ones. Two thumbs up!
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Mr Peterson, Darn, I missed the gas can Cap that was missing.....
but got all the other items....great little video, Paul from Orlando.....Bravo
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Loved the lesson, and just the right "short subject" length. It's amazing how much instruction and useful information can be put into such a short period of time. The run-time also didn't leave you with that, "I was just starting to enjoy myself and it's over" feeling. I always enjoy your videos. You're the best shop teacher on the planet.
Thank you very much
I really like this approach to the subject of safety. Adds some fun to a subject that many folks don't like to take seriously. It's a good way to get people thinking and paying attention.
I don't get why the mere mention of safety precautions sets some people off. I appreciate that it's always a consideration in a MrPete video.
Thanks
Thank you for making these videos Mr. Pete. I really appreciate them.
Excellent description and EXAMPLES for Climb Milling vs Conventional Milling... also, very good safety video (answers)... especially the safety glasses. So many times I see RUclipsrs showing something and the safety glasses are sitting to the side and not on there face over their eyes. I have witnessed three accidents in my 30+ years in the shop where safety glasses and safety shields saved someones eyes. Still doing a great job teaching!
Great work Mr. Pete, I like these short videos during the week. Keep the longies for the weekend.
This is a very useful lesson for those of us not machinist. Thank you.
One of your students here Mr.Pete. I’ve broken my share of end mills climb milling. I add a little drag with the table lock on the axis I’m moving when climb milling now. That and a shallow depth of cut make for a nice finish.
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Thank you Mr. Pete, good video subject for a short...
I did learn something. I knew everything except the finish issues. Thank you.
Neat stuff Mr. Pete. Keep 'em coming please!
Thank you Mr Pete, this was exactly what I was looking for when I asked about it in #1's comments, and I take note of the climb milling grabbing the backlash, even though it looks better :).
Cheers from Australia
Another interesting one, keep up the good work Mr. Pete!
Lyle - Good demonstration of conventional versus climb milling. Got a good chuckle out of the safety demonstration. My Dad graduated from high school in 1940 and after a government course became a set up man on a machine floor for gear shapers. After coming back from driving B-25s in 1945 he was put in the safety department where he worked for the next 15 years or so, eventually managing it. He happened to meet a nurse who had started working at the plant during the war upon his return - they got married and I was born 2 years later. So I learned the value of things like safety glasses early on - my Mom's tales of taking splinters out of guy's eyes no doubt helped reinforce their value. But I was a slow learner in some regards and have the scars to prove it! LOL
Thank you, good story
Good video Mr pete and I did all the goodies.Thank you.
Thanks Mr. Pete these hands on videos are gold. I had a piece of aluminum set up on my mill to tidy up the ends just before I watched this. I am now going to change my approach, thank you. It's an hour later and it worked a treat, ta much.
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Thanks for all your efforts as they are appreciated🤗😎🤗😎
Ah - I knew climb milling was supposed to be “dangerous”, but didn’t understand that it was because of backlash. Thanks!
Short subject #3 is very well explained,will make a good set of videos for an apprentice just starting out. Great video Mrpete keep up the great work your doing as always 😎👍👍👍
Thanks
Thanks again SIr. I enjoyed the milling video, I don't own one. I only really have a lathe in my arsenal for machining. I'm happy that I got the safety issues on the lathe.I missed the cap missing on the gas can & the tool holder too far out .
Keep them coming , I enjoy watching most of your videos
So, I see that climb milling made your vice start to do a bit of a dance at 3:35. You really have to make sure everything is tight if you want to do it. Climb milling makes me nervous.
Yes, and I should have mentioned in the video
Thank you very great visuals. Had a chuckle when you thought your backlash was double what you expected lol
Some great tips here,,thanks Mr pete.
Thank you for sharing. Watched and very much enjoyed.
Great video Mr. Pete! Keep em coming! 😁
Thank you for continuing to produce videos.
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How close is that backdrop tarp to the Countershaft? Hahahaha - Looking good buddy! LOVE YOUR VIDEOS
All good things That we need to Know and be reminded of from time to time What a great teacher you are , I went to Morton high school in Hammond Ind. I now live North of Little Ar.
Thank you very much for watching
@@mrpete222 your very welcome
I own a good sized universal milling machine with a vertical milling attachment, but I have never used it. It's Polish made, and I think it's year of mfg is 1979. When preparing to load the thing, my assistant located a data plate and told me it weighed 4000 pounds. I took his word for it, but wondered why my lift truck, rated at 7000 pounds, was difficult to steer when carrying the thing. After getting it moved and cleaned I learned it weighed 4000 kilograms! Quite a difference...
Anyway, I digress... I have been most interested in your videos concerning the horizontal milling machine and noticed you always took conventional cuts. I wondered if this was the only way due to the much larger cutter diameter having much more leverage against backlash. Or, some other reason(s).
I've never ran a horizontal and when I get this thing running I'm sure to be facing a steep learning curve. I'm eager to put it to use making gears that no one else wants to tackle. I know you need to maximize your return on effort and probably won't want to go in depth on the horizontal mill as it may only generate one view, mine, so is there any good reading material you could recommend?
Thanks for your work here Mr. Pete! It's much appreciated.
Thank you for watching. Not many people are interested in horizontal Mills. See if you can find this old book on eBay entitled. A treatise on the milling machine by Cincinnati milling machine company
@@mrpete222 many thanks for the recommendation, sir. I will be on the look out for it. It may even be something I can download if it's old enough. But, would prefer a hardcopy. I can still read that when the electricity goes out during a thunderstorm. Godspeed and good health to you!
Great! Keep them coming.
Thanks, Mr. Pete
Thankyou, Mr Pete. Appreciated.
Hot chips could easily ignite that gas can... possibly even puncturing the plastic. Roughing with heavy DOC makes chips that really sink into plastic. Regarding the cloth, I also learned to use only small patches of scotchbrite, emery cloth and fabric for polishing. I keep small 1 1/2 inch patches in a jar by the lathe. Also make emery sticks instead of wrapping long pieces around the workpiece as I originally learned. Once getting used to it I find these much safer methods giving better results as well. Was an interesting thought excercise, thank You!
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I like your short subjects
Thank you! I really enjoyed the climb milling explanation; and the shop safety explanation. You're a great teacher! The file was good! I bet some keyboard warriors had to backspace a whole lot of text when you showed that! :)
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Great video Mr. Pete thanks for explaining thst.
The reason a Climb cut produces a better finish is due to the difference of the thickness of the chip from the entry to the exit of a cut. As the cutter moves through the workpiece, the amount of material a tooth is removing becomes thinner as it is shearing. This typically causes any chatter of the tool to bounce away from the workpiece, as the tool pressure is at it's greatest entering the material, and at it's lowest towards the end of the cut, since the chip is getting thinner as it is being cut. And the opposite goes for conventional milling. The tool pressure is at it's lowest entering the material, but increases towards the end of the cut. The increase in tool pressure can literally pull the tool into the work piece, causing a poorer finish.
Conventional cuts also require more Hp (torque really) through the cut and will cause spindle loads to increase, whereas climbing spindle load reduces at the end of the cut. Climbing has it's greatest load at impact with the material, which is away from of the workpiece side of the cut.
That's a very good and clear description!
One point to add is that the thin, low-angle entry of the conventional cut is prone to rubbing. This accelerates tool wear and generates more heat.
I wanted to add 1 other thing I do (personal choice) I keep a center or plastic plug in the tail stock at all times. I feel it just may keep some debris out of it and is easy to do. By the way I did rather well in finding the issues you mentioned.
Thanks,
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Got them all, except the compound. Didn't notice it was over extended. 😉
I imagine a lot of people, including myself, didn't list that as an issue. On a lot of more modern lathes that isn't as much of an issue, though it certainly can be. I was actually taught to intentionally run the compound as far forward as possible when I was learning on ROMI/DoAll/Bridgeport lathes.
From the close-up I saw no oil on the ways, from years of watching you I know you're a stickler for that. Good videos keep them coming. 73
Somehow I knew you had tape on the back of that file! 😆
Did I ever tell you about the machinist that went around asking everyone if they stole his lathe chuck key? He couldn't find it for two days. Another machinist found it underneath about 8 inches of chips on the lathe the first guy was using. Bubba didn't do much housekeeping.
Then there’s that time old Bubba applied for a job as a lathe operator. They turned him down.
@@ellieprice363 😂 Good one.
As Always, thank you so much.
I have a good sized bench top mill and I do pretty much what you do, conventional milling for material removal and a light climb milling pass to finish. However, if I have a lot of material to remove I will take light climb milling passes on the return stroke to reduce the overall number of passes needed, especially in softer materials like aluminum.
That is precisely the way I do it
I clapped for the tape, well played :-)
Thanks Mr Pete! Love the vids
Great job
I’m still at a loss for words, as to why you don’t have over a million subscribers 🤯
In my opinion, you’re a must subscribe to channel for anyone that has interest in the machining field 💁🏼♂️
Thank you for your support. I think my channel is dying
Vary useful info thanks for sharing
i'm probably nitpicking as well, but i don't care to see the tailstock "hole" open like that. yer asking for a chip to end up in there to bugger something up later. thank you sir, some good safety tips there!
Hey Mr Pete we love the shorts good stuff
Didn't realize one of the problems (or the main problem?) with climb cutting is backlash. Makes sense now.
I loosen the spindle belt when I'm done with a job. It probably won't make much difference, but I just feel better.
The optical illusion of the cutter looking like it is running the wrong way is very often seen in the wagon wheels of the settlers who are running from the Indians in western movies. I read that the camera is running at a set frame rate that does not match the rotational rate of the cutter and that is what causes the illusion. Varying the rotational rate of a mill cutter to see if it can appear to be going the correct direction might be a interesting experiment.
VERY interesting. I do understand the difference, but I did not know the significance. Thanks, Teach
Love your videos, your attention to detail, and your commitment to the craft! Thank you. I inherited the same Clausing mill from my grandfather, but the end arbor rest is missing! Any suggestions on finding replacements?
Thank you for watching. eBay is your only possibility
Watch out for those dogs. 🐕 man's best friend
Hi, Mr pet, I realy like your videos , I was wondering when you are going to work on the South Bend milling, I have one and need to do some work on it , thank you
Not sure when. I have at least 50 videos planned and I’m not getting much done. Lately I’m big talk no action.
Love the videos!
I've never liked the look of those circular marks when using an end mill. I assume thats because of deflection of the mill itself. Without an extra short mill I assume you just have to live with it.
I never saw BX cable used around machine tools. Machines were wired using "Sealtite" tubing, to isolate liquids from electricity. Plus, the Sealtite would have been routed around that bench.
I always keep something in my tailstock just to keep chips out of there. I kept thinking you were going to say that.
Good point
Good video, good advise. I just wish I had a milling machine, but I don't.. Thanks
another fine video, thank you
Thanks for sharing 👍
Nice job 👍👍👍
Thanks again.
Is there anyway a magnet can pull the chips out of the way for steel work, and air blower to blow chips out of the way like every 5 seconds, to keep them from being re cut.
You really are my YT Shop Teacher. You know all the safety rules and you can make gold from peanut butter. Yet, somehow you can't spell conventional. C-O-N-V-E-N-T-I-O-N-A-L not CONVENTIAL (12:15) You make me happy and I love you just the way you are.
Art from Ohio
Do you find you remove more or about the same amount of material doing a spring pass climb or conventional as your final cut. Thanks
I'm not sure which is worse. The horrible sound of climb milling when you're not paying careful attention to where your backlash is and it's abruptly taken up, or watching the flutes on your endmill go flying as they're all torn off. In any case it's never fun. I also rough cut with conventional milling and then finish cut with climb milling.
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I had a guy running a 5" horizontal boring mill. He was climb cutting by taking .100 cut on the side of a 2" dia. endmill that was 8" long. It was working until the cutter started coming off the end of the part and it grabbed and broke off the 2" shank. It sounded like a bomb went off. He doesnt work there anymore.
Well explained thanks Me Pete.
How about the off/on switch on the motor and having to reach between the back of the machine and the pulley to turn it on and off.
i never liked climb milling it always seemed hard on the cutters and machine to me i just set me up a small air atachment to keep my chips blown out of the work as it cuts along and seems to work fine for me and always leave about 005 010 for a last pass clean up pass and get great surface finish but i been doing comercial grinding for the last 22 years so dont get to do much machining anymore ----i sure do miss it
Huge opportunities missed here.
Despite constantly referring to the differences in finish, the reasons for it were never given.
I also expected the significant tool life comparison to be mentioned.
These two fundamentals are far more important than just the feed direction.
Thanks, can’t keep that straight.
Lub U!
During the climb milling on the vertical mill (from 3:30 to 3:37) it looked like the entire vice was bouncing around.
....and climb milling makes needle like razor sharp chips and is somewhat like petting a porcupine when it's clean up time.
lol
Great job on the “short”
Having broken more then one cutter because I did not watch the play in the screw and having used only very old milling machines I have learned to never use climb cutting, the finish be damned. If the finish matters take a very small cut and use plenty of lubricant. Climb cutting seems to always give one more chatter as it did in this video if one listens to the sound. Aluminum is not steel, for anyone who might wonder.
Good suggestions
@@mrpete222 Pete one thing you forgot in your video was to mention the play in the cross feed which also plays a part in the prospect of a broken cutter.
I did not know that about backlash, I thought it was just how much the handle moved before moving the table.
Backlash is the term applied to the total free play movement in a drive train. In the machine shop this usually describes the drive train of a machining axis. It also applies to other drive trains such as a gear driven spindle. I think of lash being different than backlash only in that it causes positional axis error of lost motion when changing axis direction. A simple manual machine axis has lash at every assembly joint and drive train link. Backlash is the sum of this lost motion. The handwheel is keyed to the lead screw. The lead screw is held in position with thrust bearings. The lead screw and nut have lash. A new industrial manual machine with solid ways and gibs has to have some lash to prevent binding. I set up new machines to as close as .0005" total backlash. As the machine wears, the wear is uneven. Removing all lash is increasingly impossible. Inexpensive machines have no provision to compensate for the lash except mitigating its effect by tightening the gibs. Progressively more advanced machines have backlash compensation included in the machine design. Some machines have a split lead screw nut. A spreader separates the nut halves loading opposing thread shoulders against the lead screw threads. Gear drives have eccentric mounts that allow the technician to force the gear mating closer together. Timing belts can be tensioned, but timing belts stretch requiring positional feedback for positional accuracy.
Ball screws with proper lubrication (normally forced lubed on the nut)and super precision thrust and radial bearings or more often TAC bearings to hold the screw can greatly reduce the backlash. Servo motors are often coupled with taper locks instead of keying. This allows zero backlash at that point and it will slip under a severe crash causing no damage.
Large industrial machinery rely on machine mass that light duty home shop machines don't have to mitigate against the effects of backlash. Parameters can be adjusted to automatically compensate for backlash to increase positional accuracy in axis directional change. Linear guides allow much faster axis travel rates than solid ways and gibs while essentially eliminating the mandatory lash of gib adjustment. Wear is minimal. You can compare the accuracy of precision ball bearings, reduced lash tolerance and longevity compared to plain bearings when comparing linear guides to solid ways. Ball screws and linear guides we're an enormous improvement over lead screws and solid ways. Linear guides can be field replaced by only moderately skilled technician when worn or crash damaged. Solid ways suffering the same damage require a much more skilful technician that possesses scraping skills.
Worn out hobby machines can have a huge amount of axis drive train backlash. With loose gibs and lack of mass, climb milling is prone to "suck" the work into the cutter. The backlash contributes to chatter issues. I am inclined to conventional mill to mitigate against the "work sucking" issue with my hobby grade machines. Manual machines without DRO rely on handwheel dial for position or an indicator. Keeping track of the backlash error and necessary compensation techniques is a challenge. The backlash in an axis drive train will typically vary greatly. Wear would be most expected in the center travel positions where most work is performed. Correcting for wear error in the normal operating range can cause severe binding in the uncommonly used areas. Compensation becomes a give and take situation until use demands require repair or replacement.
@@paulhunt598 Wow, that is a lot of information. Thank you. I see now. I really do appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me. I mean that really does help. If I'm going to do any climb milling I'll give it a push/pull to take up the full backlash. I don't want to learn the hard way, that is why I have been watching & reading.
@@simpleman283 I prattled on some more by editing my first comment. I was a maintenance and repair technician. I enjoy learning operating skills in my retirement hobby shop. Lyle is my most favorite RUclips instructor. I follow others as well. 34 years as a technician afforded many skills, but our shop segregated repair from operations. My manual operating skills lacked development because I had access to well maintained heavy industrial machinery and mostly CNC. Some of my hobby machinery is lighter duty and/or worn more than I was used to during my employment. This adds issues to my learning curve. Lyle has pretty light duty machines that he uses for his instructional videos. He is well suited to instruct me at my operator level. I routinely have to back away from feeds, speeds and depth of cut from what we could easily do with the machinery I maintained during my career.
@@paulhunt598 Thanks for these very important in depth explanations of often misunderstood machine functions.
mrpete, at minute 3.33, it looks your vice is loose or someting ? look how its shaking !
Since the vise is bolted to the table and both are shaking, I suspect Mr Pete didn't remember to lock down the table (Sshh Don't tell anyone) 😉
Mr Pete! You're an ex teacher. Look at how you spelled conventional. Mean Culpa. I feel bad pointing it out and yet I feel like I have to. Only because I believe that you also prefer to be corrected if you get something wrong. Cheers
thank you
I like your videos long or short
Thanks John. I have been in Wisconsin for the last week
If you have any kind of mill with hand lever feed (like a Nichols Hand Miller) NEVER EVER use climb milling! You will not be able to control the feed, and you will break something or bend your arbor!
Thanks
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With all of those safety violations I don’t think you deserve to have that equipment and should transfer it to my shop as soon as possible.
Mr. Pete I sure do have concerns about the missing bolts (or studs and nuts) in those bearing caps.
They are not missing, they are hidden
p͎r͎o͎m͎o͎s͎m͎ 👊
Hey, first.
I l