Debunking the Ham Radio Choke & Balun Myth
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- Опубликовано: 14 май 2024
- In this video, we dive deep into the world of ham radios to debunk the common myth surrounding chokes and baluns. Join us as we explore the truth behind these components and separate fact from fiction. If you're a ham radio enthusiast looking to enhance your knowledge, this is a must-watch! Stay tuned to stay informed and educated on all things ham radio.
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The Ham Police went after me just a few weeks ago in another video comment section..."That's not a 1:1 unun, that's what we call a CHOKE!!" You could sense the steam coming out of this guy's ears as he furiously typed.
They won’t stop until they get their man…
😂 “How dare you! I’mma gon’ triangulate you now, son!”😂
Pretty much 👍
Let's call it a cholun.
Or a balok?
Call it "cholun balok". Gives a Harry Potter's magic touch to it...
That’s catchy 👍
@@firewaterforgeofarizona4304 A Bloke
Good video Ape. I really appreciate the accuracy and the clarity of your videos. Well done!
Thanks Alan, glad you like the videos 👍
Long long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I worked for an interesting gentleman in the two-way radio business. He got tired of all of the arguments about the effects of coiling coax, so he did something really weird. He tested it.
Using a scope and a sweep generator, he played with various frequencies and lengths of coax, straight and coiled (tightly and loosely).
The bottom line was, *_unless you actually kinked or crushed the coax_* there was no difference between coiled and straight.
All the circuit diagrams of chokes, baluns, supressors, etc I have come across all show the signal and ground lines taking different paths. Just wrapping a piece of coax around a core will do nothing as the signal line is still contained within the ground line and are both taking the same path.
THANKS ! Great Video !!! Perfect timing for me , as I am building a new Random Wire w/ a factory 9:1 un-un for Field Day and was wondering about using a choke at my tuner. .... Read the ARRL antenna Book several years ago, but need one for my reference library . THANKS AGAIN !
I put one at the antenna and at the tuner for my 9:1 👍
Another great video. Please keep them coming!!!
Thanks for watching bduff 👍
Thanks Ape. I am still learning many things of ham radio and like watching your videos. Where does ferrite beads on your coax fall into this discussion? I understand that they help with cmc but are they considered a balun, unun or just a choke? Where would you use them on an dipole, off center fed dipole or an end fed antenna?
Glad you like the videos. I would say it's a choke, it becomes a "choke Balun" if it is installed at the antenna feedpoint 👍
Thank you so much The Smokin Ape! Common Mode currents are relevant, awesome video!☺️
Hey Mary, thank you for watching 👍
Well explained. Thanks!
Howdy Andy, thanks for watching 👍
Great video as always!
Thanks Daniel 👍
Ape, I swear I was looking for that question answer in the ARRL Handbook 2000. Nope could not find it but you explained it thank you!
Hey Chris, glad it was helpful 👍
Great explanation that really made this much clearer to me, thanks a lot.
I have one question, though: among the three devices you show at the beginning of the video, we can clearly see how the two ones on the right are made. What about the one on the left? What's inside the black shrink wrap? just ferrite beads around the coax cable or something else?
Yeup ferrite beads
Yes, just beads on a short piece of coax, thanks for watching Alain 👍
I have a coax going to a mobile antenna and I obtained a choke which was just two halves of ferrite that could be closed over the cable with plastic catches. Not sure if it is useful. Bit like a T shirt that warns off pink elephants, worked perfectly so far.
As I understand it, you don’t want RF energy going through your 12V electrics which can cause strange things. A choke prevents this.
I probably don’t that this 100%.
@@darylcheshire1618 A choke is particularly useful on mobile radios since antennas tend not to be resonant or tuned. Consequently rather a lot of RF travels back to the radio on the outside of the coax, thence to the body of the radio, thence up the microphone cable to your lips. ZZZZT. Ouch. It bites.
💯 I don't see how anyone could even think of trying to ham splain to ape. Ape is a stud with accurate and precise information that truly helps the ham community. Another Excellent video Ape.
Hey Kevin! Thanks for checking out the video 👍
Thanks for all the in-depth videos you do. Sorry for my ignorance here, as I'm very new to radio, but trying to learn as much as I can - should I put a balan/tiger tail on my HT or not? Prior to watching this, it seemed to be very helpful, but I struggled to understand this video to the level you're at. Thanks so much. 73s!
Hey Josh, I'd use the HT just like it is out of the box.
I enjoy your knowledge, and have learned a lot tonight
Glad the video was helpful Ron, thanks for watching!
This was... good. Simply good. Like fresh air. Thanks!
Thanks, glad you liked it 👍
This is THE video to send to all hams who ask about chokes & baluns. Great mythbusting Ape!
Thanks Hayden 👍
great information. putting them on feed line really helps CMC getting into radio . they even work for 60 Cy ac power and DC power leads. with them you can wind turns on top of each outher . you can use different ferrite or power iron mix. this will change attenuation frequency and DB of attenuation . just use data sheet on cores to pick right one for your needs. 73's
Great points Robert 👍
I got most (if not all) of my Ham info and terms from the ARRL's publications ('60's to the popularity of the interweb). And I have always considered them Choke Balun's, or 1:1 Chokes. But being educated in communications electronics I never became upset with anyone who used different term and got their point across. Language is our primary form of communications of thoughts and ideas. As long as the concept is conveyed, it doesn't really matter by which terms. Every discipline has "terms of art", Medicine, physics, Law... even Electronics, that are used by professionals to quickly and accurately convey concepts to Other professionals. Your doctor doesn't cop an attitude with you when you call a suture a stitch. Yes we are members of the Amateur Radio Community, that doesn't mean we shouldn't act like pros.
Keep spreading the good word, Ape! 73 -mike
Awesome post!
I did not understand much of what you were talking about but thank you for saying it .
lol, thanks for watching John 👍
Hey I appreciate any advice you can give.
My electronics theory is pretty rusty as I only build kits and do point to point soldering so actually designing stuff is out of my realm.
I have a plethora of stuff in my garage from bygone days.....swr meters, multimeters, even a Q tester for transistors.
You get the like button smashed today......
Hey Tom, thanks for watching!
Hey buddy - your videos are the best! It makes me realize in my videos of home brew stuff, I need to show the full 'antenna' system being that I ALWAYS have a Choke Balun in the feed line whether it be the chopsticks dipole or the tape measure or any other hokey home brew throw together! haha You're the best my friend! Cheers and Beers (Miller Lite ;-)) Ape buddy
Hey Simon! ABC, always be choking…. Thanks for watching
Pretty Kool stuff Ape!! 👍👍👍
Thanks MWW 👍
Thanks Ape! Great job...
Thanks for watching David 👍
Good Day. Wonderful. Thank You & Best Regards.
I just found your site and subscribed.
P.S. I guess that some of the HAM Police are similar to "Road Rage"...
You would be correct about the Ham Police, thanks for the sub.
Great explanation TSA! 👍⚡🍺
Thanks Tommy Boy
Good video with clear explanations. 73
Thanks David 👍
The "Ham Police!" LOL Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us, I appreciate it!
That’s for watching WR 👍
I like your descriptions well done. What I see for balun and unun kind-of look similar. Whats the difference and where would I find a comparison between both. I have an ARRL antenna book from the 70s and have the complete set ordered from Amazon. I like the fact that the new set has hard copy and e-files ob disk. Regards ZL3AXL.
Hey Sandy, this might help: ruclips.net/video/sVJ8XDYk7p4/видео.html
Great thank you. Knew I saw it somewhere, but such a big rabbit hole and no map. Good on ya sport. Zxlax3.
Good job Ape!
Thank you BA 👍
Hey Ape, Rothammel’s Antenna Book, would agree with you as well.
Haha, awesome 👍
Thanks to all the telehamgelists.
They are the best. Thanks for watching BDRFI 👍
I got 2 chokes--mixes 31 & 43--that I use for my quick and dirty BNC binding post antennas. But I probably need to do another that is better suited for 6m and higher, since I like to get down over 50.
lol @ getting down over 50! Thanks for watching Mike 👍
Thanks. You will now be known as my "Choke Balun Sensei". Much to learn I still have. 😁
lol, thanks for watching Christian 👍
Interesting subject and agree with baluns reducing common mode currents. One question, is there any benefit of each half of a dipole being connected directly to the balun windings, instead of them being connected to a short length of coax that is then is fed to a balun? So in other words, the coax only starts after the balun?
I've watched a lecture or two about antenna design and some antennas can use ferrite material in the design to help shrink it or to give other benefits so it's definitely very interesting
I have a g90 and a couple masts for pota use. I've never done pota but I have all the equipment and am getting ready to play. I want to try multiple home brew antennas and want to only use one feed line. My question is when using an enfed and only need a short cable is there any downside to taking up the alack by creating an ugly balun or just wrapping up a large choke on pvc for common mode current? Can I use one without causing any undue harm? Im basically just using up slack and hoping for a possible benefit or should I just roll up the slack and call it a day. Same with ferrite beads. Even if I don't have any common mode current bothering me is there a down side to just keeping those beads on permanently? Last do cheap ferrite beads off amazon do anything at all or do I have to buy those expensive guys? Not matching impedance just trying to eliminate common mode. Thanks!
I should add when building antennas that need an unun I do buy quality cores. I'm just using cheap stuff for the common mode quieting properties. No experience here....at all.
Ugly baluns can work quite well but are very difficult to tune. Additionally, they are tuned for a particular frequency which means they are practically useless on a multiband antenna like an EFHW.
Ferrites have no effect on the inner conductor thus the transmitted signal. They only affect current running back to the radio on the outside of the coax. Cheap ferrites are okay but different "mix" ferrites work best at different frequencies and you want ferrites that absorb power and don't themselves become resonant.
@@TheSmokinApe TY
Thanks for the video. I've also been questioned by the Sad Ham Police hundreds of times...
Hey Rafael, they tend to get around too 👍
Off to read "An Analysis of the Balun" and see if I can do some learnin'
Thanks for watching SF 👍
Could you do a video on the explanation of the words "balanced" and "unbalanced"? I find those terms quite confusing. For instance if a feedline (coax) is 50 ohms, what about that makes it unbalanced?
Yeah, I can do something like that. The thing with coax is that it's actually three conductors which seems a little crazy at first. Current will flow in the center conductor and on the inside and outside of the shielding, that is why it's considered unbalanced.
@@TheSmokinApe Dont understand. Unbalanced because it is "3"?
Correct, more current traveling in one direction would make it unbalanced.
Hey brother. I would like to see a visual (Oscope) of the currents flowing on the shield and watch the CMC goes away with varies chokes/ choke baluns.... How would that set be?
I can put that on the video list.
@@TheSmokinApe nice...thank you
You make an inductive pickup to the oscilloscope. A few small turns of wire would suffice. Since the current runs along the length of the coax, you would put your inductive pickup so that an imaginary axis through the center of the turns is parallel to the coax. It won't be very sensitive I think so more turns maybe around a pencil or something would increase mutual inductance. Current inside the coax won't be detected outside, but current on the outside will be picked up by the sensing loop.
@@thomasmaughan4798 yes...of course....thank you..
This is well done Ape. Thank you.
I think some amateurs forget that coax is really a 3 conductor system.
There also seems to be a general notion that ground (or the coax shield) has no current flowing on it. All circuits require a return path to the source (the transmitter) in order for current to flow and do work. It's always a closed loop. By choking off the 3rd conductor in the coax with a very high inductance, we force the return current to use conductor 2 (the inside surface of the coax shield). This converts coaxial cable from a 3 conductor system into a 2 conductor system. Because the antenna is electrically a loop circuit, whatever current is flowing in the coax center conductor out to the load (one side of the dipole) there will be exactly the same magnitude on the return path from the other half of the dipole down conductor 2 inside the coax back to the transmitter.
Thank you for the additional details Hollywood 👍
Ape, thank you and please ignore the haters. I am a new ham, licensed in 2021 and your videos help me ALOT! Recently I got into creating my own chokes and transformers. I am having a blast and liking the results! I owe much of that to you. Thank you again. Ki5TNY '73
Hey TB, glad you like the videos and it's awesome to hear you are building your own stuff...
Maybe interesting for you.
Just did a comparison in the field between an "hybrid balun" and that BNC to banana jacket adapter.
My latest video. Not sure if I'm allowed to link it in a comment.
Thanks for the comment, I checked out the video. Interesting indeed 👍
Ape, my friend. I’ve been plagued by noise which I believe is caused by CMC. The end of my property is where the electrical lines pass. Also there’s a transformer. Do you think it could be the cause?
Hey Andre. It very well could be, or it could be RFI from the lines. What I would do is contact the ARRL's RFI Help Desk: www.arrl.org/radio-frequency-interference-rfi
@@TheSmokinApe I definitely will. Thank you so much for another great video. ❤️
Thanks for watching 👍
How do you even know you have common mode current and if so is it even hurting anything? That has always been my question. Only time I have noticed it being an issue is when I try loading up car trailers, fences, and other way out of wack antennas. Maybe running higher power, I could see it being necessary. Endfeds in the field would also be a candidate if you can't ground the coax braid before the rig. 73
I don't believe that common mode current will hurt anything at low power, however if you use high power ( amplifier ) then you might get rf back into your hamshack. It's possible to get an electric shock while at the microphone. You can Google it. The real problem, I believe is if you have common mode current, then not all of the current is being radiated as it is in the coax so you lose efficiency and your signal doesn't go as far.
I've found that the electrons don't care what you call a piece of equipment. Yes, we should all be using the same "language" when it comes to improving our radio skills; doing so makes the conversations much easier. But some people think they have written the definitive dictionary and the rest of us have to comply.
Totally agree Sagar! Thanks for the comment...
to be fair, a well balanced dipole will not see as much problems with RF coming down feedline and into shack causing issues.
a good choke is pretty much a must for other type of antennas especially if they lack a good RF "ground"
Thanks for the comment Gabaab 👍
@4:00 if you turn the diagram sideways it looks like a little cyclops robot.
Well, I’ll be dipped
1:53 Indeed, ARRL is the Bible for electronics!
Hey Bob, thanks for watching!
Ham police, I like that. How DARE you be correct!
The nerve! Thanks for watching 👍
Did you let Don be your model for the Ham police picture? Hi Hi 73
LOL
I think the Ham Popo should watch the protect your hole video 😂
They prolly should 👍
Over my head.
Sorry Moose
Yes a 1:1 current balun and Choke do and functionality the same.
What your calling a choke is also often called an isolator and balun.
That is in fact a W2DU balun as its developer Walt Maxwell called it.
So yea you can call any of these a choke, current balun, Isolator they all do the same thing just different namds that gets the ham cops confused.
My point exactly. It really doesn’t matter what you call it, just understand its function a purpose, the uninformed ham police love to be the echo chamber of misinformation on this topic. Thank you for the comment and watching 👍
Choke the balun or balun the choke.... 😀
Chicken and egg 👍
Salty hams. Sounds about right!
Yes it does…
You is wrong Ape! Lol
That’s what they say…
Appealing to authority are we? 🤣
We are, the ham police can now take it up with the league 👍
“Sad hams” are similar to ham police.
Don’t have much use for either.
Right
"Don’t have much use for either."
It is likely a mutual feeling.
ooooh! you're so nearly right! :)
people keep using the term common mode, common mode choke. This is not the correct term for the issue we have with coax fed dipoles, or other antenna. Common means with respect to BOTH conductors at the same time. What we have in reality is a THIRD independent current path that is not part of the single ended circuit of coax feeder line. Winding coax around some core has NO effect on the inner of the coax, no transformer action is happening, this signal inside the coax can not see the core its wound on, its shielded by the er, SHEILD! It is NOT like the current balun schematic you presented in this video. In fact I dont think I've EVER seen the "third path/imbalance current/outer braid" properly depicted in any discussion or presentation.
So winding your feeder around a core does one thing only, chokes the imbalance current from the antenna, which is NOT common mode current, it is on the outer of the braid, a third path. It is not any kind of Unun, Balun or transformer.
73 de G0AFV
"no transformer action is happening". who said it was?
@@TheSmokinApe seriously? you dont understand that Ununs and Baluns work by transformer action of one current inducing a secondary current in an inductively coupled conductor? deary me!
@@bazzaar1869 a balun choke isn’t a transformer
I understood it’s still called “common mode current” because the other two currents are perfectly balanced and seen as cancelling each other. The term “common mode” is not very intuitive.
@@petersichel9934 it’s not intuitive, what they mean is that it’s unwanted current traveling on a transmission line that is common with the wanted current. Ie Egghead speak. It could be CMC but it could also be RFI from an unwanted noise source like the power lines.
I own the choke on the left
It’s got a nice form factor 👍
I'm a sticker for measurement and I've seen videos where the measurements were made. The ones built with individual wires were the most effective. I've not seen one like the mfj style one measured. I've seen ones built with coax wrapped around a torroid , and they were highly ineffective .
The bifilar chokes tend to also be lossy. They expose the signal line to lossy material more directly. Physics is mean sometimes 😭
@californiakayaker Check the K9YC Choke Cookbook - that's not quite accurate
Joe is correct.
That won't teach them...
Prolly not…
If it chokes it chokes
lol, I read that in Ivan Drago’s voice 🥊
Call it what ever you want. It is more important to know how they work. How are common mode currents induced? How does a 1:1 transformer transform? Is an antenna just a RLC circuit that radiates EM waves instead of heat? How do standing waves affect the magnitude of the transmission line polarity? Repeat a word incorrectly enough time until it sound true like what are baby goats called if small humans are Kids?
"Call it what ever you want. It is more important to know how they work." Agreed
👮♂️The Ham Police. Just the facts.
Haha, pretty much 👍
Choke ? Is ok. But BALun word is controversial
Yes, it is…. Not sure why.
A balun has a very specific meaning often abused. But then, so is choke. For reducing RF on the outside of a coax, "choke" is a more correct term describing its function. Balun simply means balanced-to-unbalanced. A dipole is inherently balanced, coax is inherently unbalanced. It can still be 50 ohm to 50 ohm, but a balanced antenna will usually have zero current on the outside of the coax. Without an actual balun, the outside of the coax actually becomes an extension of one leg of the dipole. Hence the need for a choke if you aren't going to balun.
EFHW's tend to require the outside of the coax as the "counterpoise" for the antenna transformer. The current needs some place to GO.
I suggest you look at the article "Magnetic Coupling in Transmission Lines and Transformers" by Gerrit Barrere, KJ7KV in QEX September 2006. This explains the mechanism well:
"The circuit of Figure 11 is also known as a Guanella current-mode balun. It is not really a balun, however. Neither currents nor voltages are forced to balance by this circuit. It is, in fact, a common-mode choke. There is no magnetizing current with the load disconnected, so the transmission line currents are fully differential. This means there is no core flux, therefore no longitudinal voltage on the windings, and v2 is at ground potential. This does not change when ferrite is added to the line, increasing the common-mode choke reactance."
... I won't give you a ticket this time... 😸
Thanks for the reference Mike. At the end of the day I don’t care what what people call them. What’s annoying is when people want to hair split while posturing like they are some sort of guru….
@@TheSmokinApe It's quite interesting if you look into the physics. On a bit of a tangent .. but have you ever wondered why the equivalent circuit of coax has NO inductance in the shield. It's a wire ... any current will give rise to a magnetic flux (i.e. there has to be inductance) but it's never shown. Why?? It's because ALL the flux produced by current in the shield is cancelled exactly by the flux from the current in the center conductor (that's the beauty of coax vs twin line). There are equal and opposite currents arising from the TEM wave in the coax, thus the net flux outside the shield is zero and thus no net inductance from the shield. However; for a common mode signal, there IS inductance (because the flux is NOT cancelled). This is why you can connect a dipole to a coax (without a balun or choke) and it works in a fashion. The forward current from the shield at the antenna feed splits between the one half of the dipole and the shield depending on the relative impedances (and the shield acts as part of the antenna). If we add additional inductance to the shield (with a choke), then most of the current will flow in the antenna leg and not in the shield.
Let’s call it a baloke
It's catchy...
Sorry i fell asleep after 3 minutes 😳😳😳
Awesome!
I just see that there are two purposes for a balun or unun (whatever...)
1. Impedance matching between the feed line and the antenna.
2. Prevent current going backwards through the feed line into the transmitter and/or operator. HF burns are nasty.
If the balun/unun isn't able to do that for you then you might want to try a different setup.
Those chokes are still unun are they not? You can do common mode chokes that go from balanced to unbalanced, like you showed in the schematic. But the coax to coax is not a balanced line. Thats my understanding of this from my antenna theory course. I am welcome to being wrong but from my understanding the text is not talking about what youre showing, from my understanding.
You're not wrong, they are ununs. But if placed at the feed point of a balanced dipole, they would still function as a balun. I think Ape's point is to not get bogged down in semantics and terminology, just pay attention to how things work electrically and how they can be used in various applications. Cheers es 73!
@@socallars3748 that was my take away as well but just wanted to make sure for my professional understanding I had it down
What makes a choke a balun, is the installation location.
@@TheSmokinApe i can vibe with that
My chokes are fluid
They can identify as baluns
But only on Wednesdays,
That's when Sonny's has the $6 big deal deal.
That big deal sounds like a pretty big deal
You forgot to add that this only applies to most of planet earth were the laws ofphysics apply. None of this applies if you happen to live in Florida, where the laws of physics are apparently suspended. 😂😂
I wasn't gonna mention Florida but you are correct!
Hi. I am NOT one of the "ham police" however I think I see why some people are giving you grief on this.
The "balun-choke that you have in the picture" has a coaxial(unbalanced) connector at both the input, and output, which IMPLIES that it is an UN-UN.
You will notice that the ARRL example you gave, clearly shows a schematic with a coaxial input to the choke, and an unbalanced output, with separate terminals. (A BALUN)
If you had constructed your device in this fashion then I doubt that anyone would have challenged you. Quoting the ARRL book out of context, does not make you correct.
This is the same confusion caused by the - coax to terminals - adapter that you criticise at the end of the video. Your explanation is no better than that guy.
I am am not looking for a debate, because I had 50 years as a developer, and have taught this stuff at Post Grad level. I am well aware of the illogical conflicts that rise in these over simplified amateur disputes. This will be my only comment......
Well said!
Hey Oodle. Few things; the schematic wasn't from the ARRL and the Ham Police have complained about the term "Balun Choke" when do device or schematic was shown. This video is really a call for the Ham Police to calm down. I also, agree with the UnUn with the coax connector... I am sure you have seen that many people routinely call UnUns Baluns.
You Wrong APE Mama says balun chokes are the Devil lOL :)
Lol
Nice explanation Ape. Sorry the fake ham police are giving you trouble. I say “fake” because the real ham police would know the law. 😆
You are right about that, thanks for watching Tom 👍
Where’s my cat video?
Next week!
sand hamwiches for dinner
Souds tasty!
Way to lay down the law! Some day the Ham police will learn the A-B-C’s. 73’s till the next one!🍻
Hey Mudz, thanks for watching 👍
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck,
it probably is a duck.
According to the antenna handbook.
Right, I think 👍
The reality is that 99% of people have an opinion about it and 99% of them are wrong. Same as black-holes and quantum.
That’s seems about right 👍
Your choke balun diagram does not look like a it has a balanced side to me?
it's the cable that's unbalanced no the connector.
Anything you say that contradicts their first Elmer is heresy and will be vigorously rejected
#truth
baloon is not choke, and choke is not baloon
Ok
Posted in the wrong channel... had to delete my comment. Sorry 😂
Lol
Ham police = "some people"
Right
Defund the ham police!
LOL! Thanks for that Bob 👍
It is "you're wrong, Ape", not "you wrong Ape". Jeez.
I can’t get a break around here. Thanks for watching TRES 👍
It's all worthless.
Excellent video! DE WA1KL:I
Thanks John 👍
Great work Ape 🦧
The ham police are everywhere always watching. Maybe they should be a full time job with ofcom and go after the real people who make our lives difficult on the air.
73
I agree, they seem to be everywhere 👍