“Christianity can be so overwhelming that once we’re out we reject spirituality as a whole.” This. I tried to convince myself I was an atheist for years after I left Christianity in early high school, and it never felt right. It took me the better part of a decade to finally accept that I felt something deeper, that there is more to this world than meets the eye, and that I could feel it. It was an instinctual gut feeling to me, and yet I ignored it and stuffed it away deep inside myself for years. For my entire life I thought my instincts were wrong and that I should do what someone else or society or the Christian God wanted me to do instead. That’s one of the first things I learned when I became a Norse pagan. Trust your instincts. Amazing things have happened to me since I came to Heathenry and started trusting my instincts.
Do you think that instincts and feelings can sometimes be wrong or something else than what you might associate them with? What percentage of the time do you think they are right or could be attributed to something else?
This also explains me to a perfect T I gave up on Christianity when I was about 14 or 13 I didn't bother touching another religion or even looking at one but I still had this gut feeling that pulled me to a nature religion but something that I could explore and grow within my faith and well I have just found norse paganism right before I turned 21 but didn't call myself a pagan until I was just about to turn 22 and this religion makes so much more sense the Christian God is a fake God to make all men bow and if you don't bow you should be killed or shunned huh that sounds alot like when Christianity was first coming around the hole convert or die bullshit is crazy and how Christians say they are such great people and people of God would people of God kill you to make you believe in there God I think not sooo this is coming from someone who was born into a Christian family that God is the fakest one out of all religions well that's at least what I think
Your insticts are just demons whispering, telling you to call upon false Gods that will never hear you, and even if they heard you they would not answer. just as the Prophets of Baal called upon their Demon Lord, who then forsake them in their greatest time of need. or when the heathens called upon their numerous false Gods to stop the Christians from taking over their land, be it Scandanavia, Saxonia, or the Baltics. Or when the Arabs called upon Habul, Allat and Uzzah before Muhammed stormed their city and broke their idols. or when the Hindus called upon their gods before Babur harried their lands. you are all the same, you are all forsaken.
I masked my Paganism as atheism, one day I came out of the broom closet. If my family, associates and friends want to put something over their relationship with me, I said fine.
Wow: My story from Wales UK. Born prematurely not expected to survive. My parents brought me up to choose my own spiritual path. My Dad chased a Christian Chaplin out of hospital as he wanted to give me last rites. Fast forward 11 years. My parents divorced. My mum married into a Christian family. Mum passed away when I was 15 of lung cancer. My Step father trained for Priesthood. When I was at university upon placing him in a Parish. The Bishop didn't consider my needs. Saw me as an adult. My step father was emotionally abusive to me. I was diagnosed with ADHD whilst working for the church as Youth Pastor. My step Dad remarried. The Church turned against me. I made my own way in life working the the care sector. I started to explore Celtic Christianity. Then my boyfriend became Norse Pagan. I started to explore Celtic Welsh Paganism and I got engaged. Hanfastening planned. Really happy. Despite health struggles. I have found peace and happiness on my new path :)
This video is important because it helps give a label to the pain and struggles of the scars from Christianity. The spiritual, mental, physical, social, sexual, and/or financial abuse we have experienced. For me, Latent Christianity has affected me in more areas than I realized, even after this video. I did not realize the effect it could have from struggling to find a religious system I feel like I "fit. I usually put the gods above me because of Latent Christianity, and I didn't even realize that I could pray and offer gifts without the need of feeling insignificant. So as usual, thanks Ocean. You're the best.
Same, I am an atheist and went through the whole fear of Hell thing but there is now a kind of disgust towards Heaven. If you know of Hell I can not be happy or even a base state of boredom in Heaven. I can only be in constant unending psychological torment and anyone that they could know of Hell and not feel that same is saying Heaven keeps you from having any level of empathy.
Love your channel Ocean been thinking about Pagans and legends. I don't think i can call myself a pagan without losing my family forever but im intrigued non the less especially in regard to.the norse gods i dont know if i reject spirituality but i do call myself anti theist but feel a tie to history and the earth and the ancient ways largely tied to celtic music and cultural traditionalusic in general
@@atheistechoes9594 I have to say that is not a family worth keeping. I know that sounds horrible but it is one of the best things I’ve ever done. Trying to reconnect with my dad is pain and he is far better than he was. I picked my own family a long time ago and I am so glad that I did. Extreme action sure but it is one I think more people would take if only they thought about it.
I've been a Pagan for close to 25 years now and I struggled with that pesky late-night worry that hell might be real for the first dozen at least. It stops, eventually.
Not for my mom. It cropped back up for her in her mid-late 40's. She went back to christianity. But I also suspect that she didn't properly deconstruct and just views her pagan days as a youthful rebellious phase.
from my point of view(A hindu point of View, not all though) Hell's real, but is just a waiting room for evil doers before being sent back to eart. Sam,e with heaven but instead of evil doers it's good-doers.
That was not a problem for me (I left Islam). In fact, I recognized the doctrine of Hell as one of the most serious logical problems of Abrahamic monotheism because a place of eternal torture is simply logically incompatible with a perfectly good being like God. Hell was one of the reasons I concluded that Islam and Christianity (at least traditional Christianity) are false. I am not worried about Hell because I know that if the Abrahamic God exists, there is no such place like Hell. If he doesn't exist (which is what I believe), well, there's again no reason to worry.
@@Nexus-jg7ev This reminds me of how messed up Passover is. The fact that an all loving god would send angels down to drag innocent first born boys of their homes and slit their throats in front of their families just to prove a point...
Theres a reason why in Irish Catholicism those of us who leave are called "Recovering Catholics". It takes a long time to untangle that web, and I've found that a lot of personal exploration into your own Wyrd helps a great deal.
That has affected me. Whenever I hear about honoring ancestors, I keep thinking "most of my ancestors want me to go back to church and stop fooling around with other religions."
That's a great point. As hilarious as that would be were it true heathens and Klingons were the same. 1.) Considering the Klingons killed their gods cause theu couldn't be bothered with them is problematic. 2.) I'm not sure the cast systems are compatible.
@@Drakelich-1 Worf, " Klingons killed their gods, they were more trouble than they were worth." Some line out of Star Wars Legends, " Mandalorians killed their gods of War, and worship the act of war in and of its self."
@@Drakelich-1 in my mind that was always a symbolic story for their culture being atheist, as Star Trek never really presents deities as real. Even the Q are not seen as gods, even though that's basically what they are.
@@Nerobyrne Star Trek has a weird trend of discussing deity in general, (At least TOS). I recently got into that series and it's perspective on religion is strange and inconsistent. Might be something to dive deeper into later.
@@OceanKeltoi That's going to be interesting! I can't wait to see your take on it. I think TOS came out during a time of heavy pushback against religion (mostly just Christianity) in USA, for reasons that should be pretty obvious. Unfortunately, the pendulum swung a bit too wide, as these things usually do when a counter-culture emerges.
Oh boy has latent Christianity made things difficult for me for a looong time. From my rebellious (and borderline dangerous) atheist years (late teen to about 28~29), to even now... From doubting my new path when I first toyed with the idea of becoming Heathen, to not wanting to bother the gods with the insignificant problems in my life, to the difficult transitioning of my understanding how an afterlife and eternal punishment (and lack there of) is supposed to work. Well said Ocean.
9:36 "thought crimes" *hardcore flashback to the time my mother taught me God could read my mind and was constantly scanning it for sin* At least now I know who to blame. (And learning that other gods don't do that and aren't concerned with the practice has been a big help.)
Christian god is the Thought Police. Many pagan friends tell me that was the best thing about leaving the faith. They no longer had Big Brother in their heads, spying on everything they did and every thought they had and judging them. They felt like a huge weight was lifted off their shoulders.
"We can still pray and acknowledge the vast presence of the gods, but we can replace unhealthy submission with a healthy respect and reciprocity." What??? That one hit.
In terms of "purity culture" the belief in personal cleanliness can only be a boon to a person's life. Cleansing myself through ritual has helped me keep up hygiene routines during times of extreme depression. It's an inherently positive tradition because it can only serve to push you towards more hygienic practices.
the entro was packaged quite nicely into a stream of one very long pun. treebeard would've been proud of your long windedness. ok but seriously, what the 'suitcase jesus' said was exactly what my mom said, unironically
@@Empathicecologist I think cultural throughlines morph somewhat with each generation based on what’s in living memory, not discounting your approach at all just saying I look at things differently, and the through line I saw was the one emphasized by my parents. “People suck.” So you’re bad, hence you need to be saved, by blood sacrifice, because you deserve hell. Why? Shit… umm… well, you’re not a murderer, slaver, usually not a liar… fuck…. Cause [REDACTED] i think it’s the same thing as people pointlessly doubting individual aspects of themselves that are perfectly fine because of the general feeling that they dislike themselves somehow
I wonder if latent Christianity can extend to physical acts. For example, during my personal rituals, I often don't know what to do with my hands. Should I join my hands together, like I did when I was a Catholic? Should I adopt Orans pose? Should I let my arms dangle by my side? I may be over thinking it. But it is a thought that crosses my mind every time I prepare for my hearth cult. Great video either way, Ocean! As always, you make some very interesting points and puns!
I often extend my hands skyward and resort to gesticulations while making my affirmations, I find it helpful personally. I can’t help but notice general christian influences here and there but I’m getting better at catching myself and staying mindful of them. It’s just unfortunate to me how Christianity subconsciously permeates social media, culture, norms, language, almost every aspect of regular life.
Catholics ripe most of their rituals from pagan Rome anyhow. The whole Crossing oneself in blessing was a Mars ritual to focus and limber up for combat. The eight spoke wheel or cross on sun burst are lines of attack/ defense.
My tiny altar is at the base of a tiny Ash tree I planted years ago. I just leave my hands on the ground in this cleared out little earth patch under the tree. Then again I'm new to this and haven't actually found an active community in my area. So I kinda just go about my own thing learning what I can from places like this
thank you for this. Leaving Christianity was a long hard journey and I am still unpacking the religious trauma. having it all laid out so simply is very helpful.
I want to thank you, Ocean(and friends) for being a realistic, thought provoking, informative and well spoken source for us whom are just beginning our journey. My face has remained buried in books, my eyes and ears eagerly watching and listening to all the content! You are appreciated. As a avid student of history, truth, EX Episcopalian and completely closeted nerd eagerly searching for spirituality that speaks to me... thank you.
I feel like latent Christianity is a part of my edgy militant atheist phase when I first deconverted (this being 6ish years ago). I'm not proud of the spite I held towards religion, but I feel I am continuing to move past it.
Christianity really messed me up about religion for a while, because I remember when I was Christian, I had a bible, and the binding on the side was falling apart, and I just thought, "Oh no, if this gets any worse I won't be able to go to heaven"
My brother was complaining about that last Sunday when he stopped over for coffee after church. Another congregant was ragging at him for his bible being in such poor shape and it bothered him. Listening to him talking about this really worried me because he's a proud butthole, doesn't care who thinks what about him, but he was questioning his relationship with his god because some dude with less faith than he criticized the well-used state of his religious tool. My brother's a devout Pentacostal, and though I have problems with that particular cult, it's helped him straighten his life out and get himself put together; and he's my oldest sibling, a 50 year old man shouldn't carry himself like an 11 year old boy who's just been told he's a worthless piece of crap. I looked at him and told him that if his bible weren't meant to be read and referred to often, he wouldn't have had one of his own; that I would have questioned his faith if the same bible he'd had for the past 30+ years were still as pretty as it had been then. Religious tools are meant to be used and loved. Sorry for the super long reply, I just felt the need to whine about something that shouldn't be an issue anyways lol.
In the late eighties my mother got involved in a christian cult. I think they approached her on the street and started a conversation, inviting her to a service. I think she went and they gave her their version of the bible. She got some weird energies from it and started having really dark and vivid visions, she says she felt a shadowy presence following her around and saw things like the ravens of death devouring her. She is incredibly sensitive, but doesn't usually believe that stuff. She wanted to throw the book away but was terrified of being punished for throwing away a bible. In the end she went to see the vicar of the local parish and he told her to just chuck it in the bin and she'd be fine. Of course she was and the weird stuff stopped, but she felt guilty about it for years!
Yup. It's the biggest brainwashing guilt trip in all of history. I've never in my life been Christian, which was always funny to me. Reading 'Exploring The Northern Tradition' by Galina Krasskova, I recall the passage where she says "none of us come to the Gods as blank religious slates." Hehe, yeah I did. Nothing about Christianity ever appealed to me, and having learned more about history on my own over the last few years than I ever did in school has helped me realize even more how lucky I was to be spared such nonsense. Humans are mentally lazy. Most of us believe what others tell us because it's simpler that way, rather than realizing history has two stories to it, with mostly only one being told. There aren't even 'your side and my side' aspects to this argument. There is just right and wrong. And what Christianity has done to the world for the last twenty centuries is the height of wrong. I have known at least three women who tolerated, even accepted, being beaten and raped by their own HUSBANDS or FATHERS because the bible (no I deliberately didn't capitalize that) taught them to be good little subservient wifey poos because the men in question were, well, men, and thus could do no wrong and deserved to do whatever they felt like to women. All three of these women were Christian (I don't even like capitalizing that word) and they cited the bible's 'teachings' as the reason why they took this horrific treatment from their own husbands. My apologies for this novel, this is a highly important subject to me and I have no one in my daily life to talk to about it hehe.
@@companylovesmisery1463 Novel length comments always grab my attention. It means the person has something interesting to say. It sucks that so many people misinterpret the bible. What I find strange is that folks on both sides of those situations automatically seem to think women are lesser than men despite the fact that men were birthed by women. The psychological compartmentalization that separates that from their god being greater than the humans it made is astounding. I sincerely hope those women find their way to safety, and their abusers to screw up in some other area of their lives bad enough to remove them from their victims' lives. Even as a kid being raised Baptist Christian, I didn't understand the distance between a deity and their adherent. I'm now pagan (have been since my mid teens), and I still don't get it. I consider my gods as close as family, and I did it as a child to their god, too.
@@JariDawnchild I wish I could say that was the case. Two of them are exes of mine, and neither one is in my life anymore, but I know one of them remained married to such an evil man. The other one I speak of left her abuser, but she still pines for him for whatever reason. I think because he was 'good in bed' and 'he could cook.' People and their priorities eh? The last person I was mentioning is a friend of mine who lives in the Philippines and was treated that way by her father. I live in New Mexico for context, so I know what it's like to hear from monotheists (Catholics in my neck of the woods) how I'm just wrong and stupid and 'don't I know it's what Jesus would want?' If we were just meant to be vessels for any deity's wants and plans, we would not have free will, we would not be able to decide to do wonderful things, or horrible things, like what was done to these three women of my acquaintance. I don't see those men being punished for it though, and they would use that as justification for their 'belief's. Sick.
I feel this. Growing up in a heavy "christian" family, searching through that faith, and coming to realization of my polytheism give or take a year ago. Being openly pegan, and struggling to remove the after effects of christians and surroundings
I always struggle when I try to do more than just inform myself on the faith. Whenever I attempt to actually practice my faith more than wearing a hammer and researching the history I always have that anxiety that rears in my head like an uncomfortable itch. "What if everyone's right? What if Jesus, God, heaven, he'll, what if it's all real. Will he punish me? Will I go to hell for practicing a religion that isn't Christianity." It's something that I struggle with semi frequently being a sapling pagan. But I just always have to remember that if I wasn't meant to follow this path the old gods wouldn't have been so damn insistent that I notice them. To all fellows in this mental trap, push onward. The gods are worth the work of shedding our old practice. And we as practicioners deserve to shed the abuse of our religious backgrounds. We deserve better.
This is a seriously bothersome fact sometimes but a topic worthy of deep exploration, because not recognizing it might make us blind to certain shocking details. Stay mindful out there and skål y’all.
I was actually raised in a pagan household but still have aspects of this from 1. just living in our christianized society and 2. because my mother was raised Catholic along with her seven siblings, who along with their children, still mostly practice to some extent. So even though I never went to church, all funerals, baptisms, first communions, etc. where obviously held there and had a mass. I remember being afraid of going to hell as a child even though I had literally never been to a single Sunday mass.
I'm glad we have a term for this since it was something I struggled with for years and still sort of do, be it when I was a staunch atheist or a pagan now. The fear of damnation and scare tactics from Christians had me seeing world religions through a narrow lens that they all have the same power dynamic and the gods are violent, jealous beings to be feared because if you step out of line, you'll be in for it. Even when I was exploring my path and on the fence, that latent Christianity came out and thought there was only one way to worship or venerate the gods because anything else was disrespectful or just blasphemous. It's a lot to process and I don't blame anyone for feeling stuck or in a loop over it.
Over active imagination from grief that lead people into thinking they were talking to ghost, if there are ghost, then there has to be an afterlife. Even I had to deal with 1980's Southern Baptist bull crap preaching ghost are demons and your grand parents do not watch over you from heaven. All the dead remain in their graves till Christ second coming, and they paddle that into their Sunday school children.
@@angryunicornproductions2633 Each given church and average age group form their own little echo chamber cult group think. In that regard, there is no such thing as ... All .. Christians.
As a practicing Pagan for roughly 36 years, I still struggle with this on occasion and, as my father and stepmom became ordained pastors some 23 years ago, I may have come out of the broom closet, but I still have my hand on that door knob, Lol. I've come a very long way though. Fear of 'persecution' runs strong in many Pagans and I can't seem to shake that feeling that it will rear its ugly head once more. Ugh.
This is something I struggle with coming from another branch of the abrahamic faith (islam) which I left a while back. The whole concept of hell and heaven to me is more of a state of mind as opposed to a physical place. The idea of an omnipotent and omniscient creator demanding worship sounds honestly plain vain to me as well. Ive been teetering between that and now im leaning more towards being agnostic but exploring other faith backgrounds such as buddhism and even other indo european religions. Another reason which I left is due to research on how the religion was spread forcefully on my ancestors and the influence to this day that it continues which makes me disgusted. Seeing this video helps put things into perspective because even I have that residual “what if” scenarios or divine punishment for not following the faith that was put onto me at birth. Cheers 🤘
Islam does preach that heaven and hell are state of minds. They are either the after life with connection with God or Without. I ask you to analyze the Novel, Secrets of Divine love by Hewla. She took your route as well and turned away from Islam to analyze other religions like Buddhism and then eventually re routed back, it is a beautiful book. Please read it if you can.
This really resonates with me, as all of your videos that deal with Latent Christianity do (well, all of your videos!). I grew up in a Pentecostal family in the Deep South, and GAWD was portrayed a a wrathful Father and only through the Blood of the Lamb would I be saved. Only through research and investigation did I finally begin to stop seeing Valholl as some sort of Norse Heaven. With the Aesir I feel that I am accepted for being myself, and the only expectation is to be a good and honorable man and to keep my oaths. As a gay man Christianity had been a noose around my neck ever since I was old enough to realize that I was gay and that I was going to Hell because Jesus. I could write a very long post about my "pray-the-gay-away" camp trauma, and the "unspoken prayer requests" , and the praying over me with the congregation "speaking in tongues." It took a long time, and to be honest, it is still a problem to shed that feeling that I am somehow sinning and going to Hell. I feel that I am growing closer to Thor who gives me strength and courage, and I recently passed a major medical renewal exam and gave thanks to Odin for the wisdom... but then again, isn't that just Latent Christianity? I'm still struggling, but your videos are immensely helpful. Keep it up, Ocean!
As a queer, black female, who was raised only a few steps away from IBLP/ATI. Christianity has been toxic to me. I haven’t even thought about replacing it with another god or gods. I feel like it is a bad relationship and it’s best just to not “date” any new gods until I’m in a better place.
I am sorry for your hardships, but if you have a lot of cats hanging out where you live and they are friendly to you. There is the Egyptian goddess Bast. She is not very demanding that you keep cats of your own. As for myself doing some artwork for a few lady friends, I had a problem of .. impulse .. buying stuff toy cats and giving them away as gifts to people, which made more than a few people happy with the surprise gift.
Comparing it to a toxic relationship is a great idea. Just because one person is bad doesn't mean they're all bad 😊 But also, nobody should be mad at you if you just never date again.
I am a lesbian nordic - celtoi witch (Völva) and I hated Jesus and the Christian God since I was a little girl. I never know why. But then I heard about the nordic gods, the greek gods, the egyptian gods, the indian spirits, fae and so on. Our world is filled with wonderful deities and entitys, and I fall in love with the ancient horned god. He is the oldest god I know and the first humans in caves worshipped him. We don't have to work with deities, but it feels right for me to connect to Cernunnos/Herne/Pan/Enkidu, Cerridwen, Odin and Anubis. (Sorry for my bad english 😅)
I think I have pretty much zero latent Christianity left. Back when I still struggled with latent Christianity, I had a sense of anger toward that faith. I am much more at peace with it now, I can even appreciate the Christian faith, from the outside looking in. It feels good to be free from the guilt and fear associated with that system.
I would say for me it was my entering into teenage years. I spent my early childhood in a virtual state of homelessness moving here and there. My stepfather was abusive, my mother was a drug addict, and my father was never in a good financial situation (still isn't). One thing that always reared its ugly head though was the fact I still always was forced to go to some sort of church. I remember some of the things were really messed up and I began noticing it in my teenage years. What sealed the fate was my 2 years in a Christian school and my time in the military, especially after my first deployment. There's still some things I might say and I might suck it up if my nieces and nephews have a big event at school (I was adopted), but for the most part I stay away from churches as much as I can.
I mean, I feel like this is a legitimate problem. Being indoctrinated into such an engrained and established religion, it makes it difficult to unpack that baggage. I think because of the lack of structure in the Pagan community we are at a disadvantage. Our nonconforming ways are a double edged sword, its what draws people out of abusive Christianity but also what makes it difficult to build on our own faith, because the rules are there are no rules. Sure we have the Hávamal and the Eddas, but we dont have the same structure of community that Christians do. I think what would really help is if moderates in the community had their own Halls or groups. The AFA is blatantly Racist and the TAC uses the Gods as political tools. So im not comfortable with either, but a better Heathen community would make it much easier to toss the suitcase.
I think the biggest piece of baggage I have is that I'm trying to find the one right thing... I believe in both norse and greek gods and for a long time I thought I'd have to decide, but I no longer think this way, because... why would I have to decide? Who said I have to decide? That's a christian thing, with their abusive and extremely envious god, who said that there is only them and you can't worship anyone else beside them. But despite this, I feel a lot more comfortable after I left christianity, especially because... well, being gay and transgender isn't really something that has a place in catholisism... I'm just going to keep going, keep wondering and keep trying to figure out what's right for me.
I feel like I’m much better as a person, more free, now that I no longer worry that I’m a “bad person” for having thoughts pop into my head. Even though I wasn’t a practicing Christian, for years I followed the line of only being good and having good thoughts and anything other than that meant I was a bad person. Paganism has taught me so much about history and myself.
The concept of Catholic guilt followed me and still does to this day. What really sucks is when you do something you are proud of and then immediately feel that twinge of guilt for feeling pride.
Excellent discussion here! Though as someone who was raised more New Age than anything else, I was wondering if you had any observations about "latent New Age" tendencies. Because after leaving that belief system I have noticed its influence EVERYWHERE.
One idea that helps me laugh at my lingering latent Christianity is this: Based on Christian dogma and ethics, there are people in Heaven who I hated in life and people in Hell who I loved in life. If that’s the case, then I’d probably resent going to Heaven because I’d miss people in Hell. That is the messed up emotional and spiritual abuse of Christians.
Catholics teach that part of the happiness you enjoy in heaven is derived from viewing the torture of people in hell. Once we die we'll not only understand why gay people and those lost to suicide deserve to suffer for eternity, but we'll be super duper psyched about it.
as a teen I realized most all my friends at school weren't particularly religious, and I asked a teacher at confirmation classes how I could be happy in heaven if all my worldly friends were in hell. she told me I'd forget they'd even existed. I was utterly horrified by the concept then and disgusted by it now.
Christian universalists don't believe hell to be a permanent place, original scripture indicated that the soul would be in hell until it's not needed there anymore, after that it goes to the heavens or makes a full circle.
Thank you for this. I don't know if I will ever completely get rid of latent Christianity, but hopefully I can leave the suitcase behind on Earth when I move on to whatever comes next.
Norse Paganism has drawn me, but my catholic baggage is still there. I literally find myself swearing in Finnish just to feel less guilty about uttering “JC!” Whenever shits just not going right.
I really resonated with what you said about feeling guilt over not doing enough. I am eclectic and pray to a variety of gods and spirits (with Lilith as my favorite), but I so often feel that I am neglecting them and not doing enough.
I'm so glad I'm past all this. But then, with Loki at my shoulder and speaking in my ear for the past 60 years, it never really took hold in the first place. There's no escaping the societal ramifications of the Judeo-Christian ideals written into our laws, and we have to make peace with that, but we can eventually get to a place where we can permit ourselves to let go of the personal sense of anger and regret we tend to carry over from our association with pedantic religiosity. It may take more time for some than for others, but trust me, it can be done.
Now iam thinking this kind of Christianity robbed me of thinking because I was a curious kid and it never had room for all my questions and as a grown up now iam 99% unspiritual. Hm.
Thank you for this video. I'm still struggling to get this kind of pain out of my current feelings with Christianity. This perspective is going to help me in the long run.
Christian humility that did and continues to do a number on me. I was barely a Christian in the church of England style. Births wedding and funerals nothing more. Even with that little time in church it still got to me. I have to work at stopping my self from playing down my abilities and accomplishments. And sacrifice for the algorithm god's
This is definitely a helpful video as I finally begin a journey into paganism after trying to ignore the feeling of being called towards it for so long exactly because of the fear of any sort of spirituality after leaving Christianity. One thing I can point out with myself, is that I had thought I had dealt with a lot of the trauma associated there already while going through my phase as an atheist, but noticed I had really mostly just suppressed thinking about most of it. Specifically the fear of hell started to rear up again as soon as I just let myself consider that maybe something spiritual exists at all, and something I hadn't even noticed until this video, but I had definitely also had some of those unhealthy ideas about prayer, and it requiring you submitting to the gods, definitely affecting me when I first started trying to pray to the Morrigan. It's really helpful to see that confronted, so I even notice it's a thing I was doing, and y'know, can actually confront that now, and extra helpful that it's early on with my journey personally so I can try to not further ingrain those bad habits.
I noticed in Christianity, the prayers seem to be very nihilistic. Asking things from God. Me me me! Make my life "better". George Carlin's bit about praying comes to mind. Anyway, one night not too long ago I made an offering to the Norse gods not out of fear that if I didn't I would be sent to some torturous afterlife, but because I wanted them to know that I recognize them and invite them into my life. It was a powerful moment and you, Ocean, have helped in that.
Absolutely amazing video Ocean! You made a lot of great points and summarized concepts very eloquently! I loved the mention of Pascal's Wager and showing how flawed it is beyond a surface level understanding.
I feel like the odd man out, I embrace my latent Christianity. This might be a result of me being in a less toxic Canadian-Presbyterian church than the more evangelical American churches, but I never feared God. The conflict was never "obey or burn", for us it was emphasized that the nature of the divine can only be understood through contemplation and research, and that the will of the divine can only be made manifest by democracy and equitable practices. Notions that made me question Christendom as a whole purely because I could not reconcile Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnibenevolence in an Omniexistensial being. These ideas are what fundamentally lead me to Paganism. Ideas that I still hold dearly, and why Christ and my late Reverend are both Ancestors I consider worthy of veneration. Because when I look to the resurrection of Lazarus, the feeding of the masses, Christ throwing merchants from the Temple, I see a man trying his best to make a good Path rather than a divine being casting judgement.
Considering that I left the cult of the nailed one rather early, mentally quit before my 9th winter- totally leaving some three years later when my paternal grandmother died, not much baggage.
It feels reassuring to hear someone put into words something that I've felt for years. The fear of Hell or the judgment and punishment that condemns one to hell for basically just being a human has hung over me most of my life, and I left Christianity a long time ago.
I can identify with this, as the son of a Presbyterian church minister. I was subjected to a quadruple dose of indoctrination, with most of my childhood revolving around our Christian home and church activities. It wasn't until my 30s that I seriously started to question things, and I think I'll always have some mental baggage because of it, no matter how much I learn and realise that its incompatible with reality.
Your voice and your mind are a salve. Thank you for sharing them. I managed to dodge the worst of Latent Christianity somehow by never internalizing the toxic parts of Christianity. I was one of those annoying children who kept asking "why?" long after it was comfortable for anyone. This video helps me to understand my so many of my fellow escaped Christians are so angry at Christianity, divinity, or even religion in general. They are constantly having to shout "shut UP!" at suitcase-Jesus. Whereas, the Jesus I brought with me doesn't understand the Christians either. I can hear him muttering in the back of my head. "Yeah, man, I didn't tell them to do any of this stuff. Please don't blame me."
I do not .. believe .. I just take a few given things as facts cause I seen a lot of strange zhit in my life. Religious ritual is witchcraft invoking spirits/gods with mostly of no understanding of science. The rituals of witchcraft is the science of " cause & effect." Research on Aikido & Reiki, it fits in line with the hand gestures of prayer the early 1900's Sicilian Roman Catholics use to practice. If you are raised in it, then there is no problem cause you just grew into the practice as an everyday thing, but for other people it is a three to five year study. Dealing with pushing energy fields in the surrounding air is like practicing boxing under water.
Just a quick comment for the algorithm, but I personally have a very "Crom" style view of prayer. If you're alive the gods have given you more than enough. Beyond that is up to you.
I have an example of latent Judaism that might also affect latent roman catholics. When I first was looking into paganism it felt so weird doing rituals in English because all major prayers in my life had been done in Hebrew. I wondered if I should learn Greek to pray to the Greek gods, just because things felt more spiritual if I did them in another language.
A couple of weeks ago one of your videos titled "panera hates pagans" made it into my recommendations and I've been watching you ever since. I find your channel and the community you've made here quite comforting, especially since I'm an exmuslim with a lot of pent up rage against the muslim and christian god. I've since slowly shed that "all religion is bad" mentality and I'm starting to do more research into heathenry since it interests me. Thank you for the informative and witty videos.
I have never been able to shake the whole guilt thing, or the idea that the gods might be displeased. Even a decade away from Christianity and that one keeps sticking around
For me it was mainly reactionary religion. Not in a political but rather religious sense. If some concept was similar to Christianity I tried to do something different. So I tried to do an "opposite Christianity" rather than explore actual religiosity. Christianity still dictated what to do but in a twisted way. It kinda makes sense since at that time I was going through teenage rebellion.
Makes me glad I was raised pagan... I find it interesting that I'd just been wondering where a new Ocean video was, and within a few hours... Poof, this pings!
it is difficult to drop the basic scaffolding all at once after "leaving" Christianity. I have since replaced a lot of basic concepts with things I have found in various religions/philosophies from around the world. My problem is that I was never socially accepted into a group. Now I'm finding concepts that mirror what is inside of me. Not being able to talk about stuff that I have experienced was one of my problems. There are words and understanding for what I have experienced outside of "Christian" concepts.
I really could never figure out why my self esteem was so shit and why I hated myself for existing to the point of being severely depressed until I left Christianity. Once I finally let the feeling of hell go, and basically told myself it's okay I would rather burn than continue to live in misery was I finally able to let the whole 'God said I'm bad so I should feel bad' go. I've only finally been able to rebuild my mental health recently, finding much kinder dieties to work with. And you sir word it better than I ever could, dont follow the Norse Pantheon myself, but thankyou for helping me gain peace of mind through your videos.
It's better to burn in 🔥than praise the evil God that created such a vile cruel abortion for innocent souls. Wonder if Satan could be the real good guy.
I myself now a full fledged Atheistic Satanist have a more pluralistic view of the world and yes I had escaped Christianity via paganism then later transitioned again but I had the same mindset as one is right and everyone else is wrong for quite a while but as time went on and I grew I mainly became a knowledge seeker. "Coveting it above all else and chained down by sin" as a preacher once confronted me and went onto damn me to his hell and I walked away but all the while never feeling malice. By the way love your videos and hope you continue on this ride, you are a great storyteller and a fountain of information. Hail Thyself 🖤
I'm lucky enough to have never been christian, raised atheist, now eclectic. still though, interesting to see how christianity has effected people even after leaving the faith.
Definitely relatable even tho I was raised as a Muslim. I don't think it was hard for me to leave Islam when I was 16 because I've never felt the preasure to be a Muslim, however I recognize that I'm one of the lucky ones to be born in Bosnia and Herzegovina, a multiethnic country with three main religions (Islam, Catholicism and Orthodox christianity) ... When it comes to Allah, he is very different from the Christian God and in many aspects, the Muslim religion offers you more when it comes to the matters of one's soul. However, there are many things that didn't sit well with me when it comes to practices and how women are viewed, in general, in abrahamic religions so I choose to be free with my gods.
The struggle that I have found is distinguishing between the good philosophical points from Christianity and which ones are baggage that do not hold to Universal or practical or principled Truths. I owe a debt to my Christian upbringing, but my soul feels like it is busting out the seams of whatever it is that contains it.
I find it reflected sometimes in my immediate words/terminology to the Gods, and then I feel slightly shamed. They simply don’t function the same, nor should they.
I still struggle with the idea that my gods do not blame me for an assult that happened to me. When I hold ritual I find myself still thinking of asking them to forgive me for that bastardes decision.
Love this. I came to the heathen path about six months ago. I left Christianity about four years ago. I still sometimes have a struggle about how to go about worshiping the gods. Mostly because of the Latent Christianity that still effects me. I find myself moving toward one god in particular because it is still hard for me sometimes to worship multiple. But I know regardless, the gods have shown me more than Jesus Christ ever did. Much less from what I witnessed in churches when I was in Seminary. Some very crooked stuff for the one religion that apparently the pure truth.
Thankfully I've been out of it for so long most of those little weeds of systemic abuse have cropped up enough time and again that I've pulled them, roots and all. I am annoyed by how christianity inserts itself into so many other things still, and I may never stop seeing that, but I think that sight is a good thing because it makes the journey out of that suitcase easier and easier as time goes on. It's simply "What's right for me," and my values, not what someone tells me I'm "supposed" to do.
I rewatch this video frequently and always find some new single sock of long-past christian times in a side pocket of my inner suitcase. Often it is an iteration of not being good enough for me to bother the Gods with my unworthy presence, like again recently. Then one shows up in some unexpected aspect of my life and gives me the spiritual equivalent of a shoulder pat. I have not been christian for close to three decades, but this baggage still shows up and annoys the living daylight out of me and I will never stop being grateful to the Gods for their patience with me and my self-doubts.
I've been calling it "deconstructing internalized toxic christianity." Same concept, really. I don't always throw in "toxic" either. As far as I am concerned it's more toxic than not and there's no need to be repetitive. Personally, my biggest struggle is purity culture. It's so pervasive in our culture that it's basically the standard for how women are expected to behave almost regardless of religion. It's exhausting, but also has been some of the hardest stuff for me to deconstruct. Another one I've been really working on is the notion that knowledge is somehow "evil." The phrase "Knowledge is power, power corrupts. Study hard, be evil." I never had any desire to be perceived as "evil." Because of this, I found myself holding myself to Christian standards of "goodness." Hence the struggle with purity culture, struggles with modesty, and throw in a healthy dose of shame for being plus sized.... Needless to say, it's been a lot of work to redefine what makes a person "evil" so I can finally deconstruct the rest of it. I have every right to be intelligent, I have every right to love the body I live in, and I have every right to use that body as I see fit. And I'm not "evil" for any of those ideas. The ironic part? I was never really christian. I never identified myself that way, I rarely went to church, and I was never baptized. I recognized myself as a witch at 9 years old, at the same time I recognized that Christianity was wrong. Most of my internalized trauma comes from our christian culture, not from being a practicing Christian.
Because of so many requests in the past, there's a Suitcase Savior sticker / pin / magnet / mug for you to bother people with, or have show up and inconvenient times: www.redbubble.com/i/mug/Latent-Christianity-The-Suitcase-Savior-by-OceanKeltoi/79074083.9Q0AD Merch store: www.redbubble.com/people/OceanKeltoi/shop Repent or Perish, it's your choice.
the concept of Valhalla raises a question. are there other such halls in the other realms, such as in elfheim for those that "act like elves in life" or would that be exclusively for elves? would someone who "behaves like a giant" find an afterlife in giantheim? could there be a furheim for furries with its own furhalla? and can trekies "boldly go, where no one has gone before?"
Various Gods, Æsir or otherwise, do have halls. Valhöll is famous only for the macho boys to continue their fighting. Thor's hall Bilskirnir ís supposedly the largest, containing 540 rooms. Frigga's hall Fensalir, the Fen Lands. Folkwang is Freyja's hall of nine castles, also known as Sessrümnir. Ægir and Rán's Hall is beneath the ocean, the drowned taken into Rán's Hands. However, fishermen and those traveling the sea would contact Njörð, whose hall is Nóatún. If you died on land and not chosen by any of the above Goddesses or Gods, you could expect to go to Hel's hall Helheim. But many of the other Goddesses and Gods and Jötan had their own halls too, which you may aspire to reach after your life ends.
Thanks @OceansKeltoi ! For me it has taeken years of gradual insights into heathen philosophy and thought in comparison to the form of christianity I was brought up with to realize the difference. It's a gradual process that will never fully end and it should not because the reflections and growth it contain! A word that has helped me more to leave the "one truth" mindset is HENOTHEISM! Perhaps do a video in this. I have a metaphor for this: Each religion or spiritual path is like an ice-cream and we have our own preffereance of flavour etc and the other types are OK as well and humans do not need to judge each other for the preferences.
This thought might give some comfort to some who are struggling with fears over “maybe hell is real and I’m going there”. The thing that started me on the path from fundamental Baptist, to a “wandering” period, to becoming a pagan, is history. Think about how life existed for so many thousands of years far before Jesus, the Romans, or even stately polytheistic religions of Greece and the Near East. These are our ancestors. Did a single god create all of them before they could even know they needed to be saved but then just sent billions of them to hell until we had literacy and a holy book written in a foreign language to tell us how to live? It’s ludicrous. The god of the Old Testament is for the Hebrews, and that’s great for them. The New Testament is just a strange but wildly popular cult that shot off from that. That’s how I see it anyway.
another thought: i brought up that if the tree of the knowledge of good and evil never existed, then adam and eve would still have free choice, just no decisions that may cost their soul. my mom replied with 'no its not. there needs to be a big decision ' lol.
The thing that bother me about the story was that before they ate the fruit they didn't know the difference between good and evil right and wrong but they still got punish
Thank you Ocean!! I was a Christian and now I am a person who believes that many gods exist. I just worship one. I am glad I am not Christian anymore!! I still experience latent Christianity in myself once in awhile. I just have unlearn some things.
this video kind of blew my mind, because I thought that subservience, repentance, and hell and all that was an inherent aspect of religion. That is why I rejected spirituality as a whole for a long time, because I thought that acknowledging divinity meant i had to think of myself as lesser. that is not true though. thank you
I’ve been a pagan since the beginning of this year after I went through a very rough time and the gods made themselves known to me. I had been atheist for multiple years and when I was I dealt with the fear of hell and a fear of death. I also became very racist and homophobic as an embracing of the things I was inadvertently taught as a kid and that took a while to overcome. In the process I realized I was pansexual and after a very enlightening experience with a friend of mine who is trans, I realized how stupid I was. I’m in a much better place now and I couldn’t be happier to have found this path. I still deal with needing to affirm myself that I’m going to an after life and am still sticking to Odin in particular when it comes to god worship since he feels the most familiar given he’s the one that showed me the path and constantly made sure I felt his presence whenever I had doubts in the beginning. Anyways, I think I’ve rambled on enough now. Thank you Ocean for making your videos and being a great person and helping me escape WoO.
Here's to boost you up in the algorithm, but above all to thank everyone who commented with personal stories. Having finally come to terms with leaving Christianity, your examples are both heart warming and instructive: I know I'm not alone and there's better spiritual experience coming up!
I’ll give my own odd example of many that I have related to this- but I always think of tattoos. I love tattoos, I think they’re gorgeous and I hope to get some one day, but there’s that little voice in the back of my head trying to convince me that it’s a bad idea, that if I get a tattoo I’ll be impure and damaging myself forever. It’s such an odd phenomenon.
I'm so glad that i grew up in a atheist family and went to secular schools in a mostly non religious society._. There is so much baggage i don't have._.
I was raised Atheist. But latent Christianity definitely has had it's effect on me. Now that I'm a Pagan, I still feel it. This video is helpful. Thanks for making it!
This video and topic really hits hard for me, as a Christian-"escapee". I feel more liberated, free, and spiritual now than I ever felt. I don't have any negative or hateful feelings towards Yahweh/"God" or Jesus, and I believe they never meant for their followers to pull most of the shit they do, so I guess I left on good terms. However I just felt the religion wasn't for me. Being a latent Christian left it's marks in my life sadly, however I also feel I have learned very good lessons from the entire experience.
One aspect of latent christianity I think I deal with is my altar and offerings. Christianity most churches have polished shiney metals and gold in some degree or another, they make the worship space regal. I tend to look at my humble home altar and wonder if its fancy enough, or if my offerings were good enough. I try to remind myself it's not the substance of what I have but the intent and the feeling behind it, but the thought is still a nagging one.
Mine mostly has wooden idols on it and looks really minimalist compared to some other altars i’ve seen out there. But I like it and i prefer a simple altar.
I am an atheist and have been for years now. I have never had a problem with 'latent Christianity' since I never truly believed. And by the way, your channel is amazing! 👍🏻I really enjoy it! You make people (at least me) to pay more attention to philosophy and religion, in general. Keep the good work up!
“Christianity can be so overwhelming that once we’re out we reject spirituality as a whole.”
This. I tried to convince myself I was an atheist for years after I left Christianity in early high school, and it never felt right. It took me the better part of a decade to finally accept that I felt something deeper, that there is more to this world than meets the eye, and that I could feel it. It was an instinctual gut feeling to me, and yet I ignored it and stuffed it away deep inside myself for years. For my entire life I thought my instincts were wrong and that I should do what someone else or society or the Christian God wanted me to do instead. That’s one of the first things I learned when I became a Norse pagan. Trust your instincts. Amazing things have happened to me since I came to Heathenry and started trusting my instincts.
Do you think that instincts and feelings can sometimes be wrong or something else than what you might associate them with? What percentage of the time do you think they are right or could be attributed to something else?
I could have written this post as it mirrored my path. Thank you.
This also explains me to a perfect T I gave up on Christianity when I was about 14 or 13 I didn't bother touching another religion or even looking at one but I still had this gut feeling that pulled me to a nature religion but something that I could explore and grow within my faith and well I have just found norse paganism right before I turned 21 but didn't call myself a pagan until I was just about to turn 22 and this religion makes so much more sense the Christian God is a fake God to make all men bow and if you don't bow you should be killed or shunned huh that sounds alot like when Christianity was first coming around the hole convert or die bullshit is crazy and how Christians say they are such great people and people of God would people of God kill you to make you believe in there God I think not sooo this is coming from someone who was born into a Christian family that God is the fakest one out of all religions well that's at least what I think
Your insticts are just demons whispering, telling you to call upon false Gods that will never hear you, and even if they heard you they would not answer. just as the Prophets of Baal called upon their Demon Lord, who then forsake them in their greatest time of need. or when the heathens called upon their numerous false Gods to stop the Christians from taking over their land, be it Scandanavia, Saxonia, or the Baltics.
Or when the Arabs called upon Habul, Allat and Uzzah before Muhammed stormed their city and broke their idols.
or when the Hindus called upon their gods before Babur harried their lands. you are all the same, you are all forsaken.
I masked my Paganism as atheism, one day I came out of the broom closet. If my family, associates and friends want to put something over their relationship with me, I said fine.
Wow: My story from Wales UK. Born prematurely not expected to survive. My parents brought me up to choose my own spiritual path. My Dad chased a Christian Chaplin out of hospital as he wanted to give me last rites. Fast forward 11 years. My parents divorced. My mum married into a Christian family. Mum passed away when I was 15 of lung cancer. My Step father trained for Priesthood. When I was at university upon placing him in a Parish. The Bishop didn't consider my needs. Saw me as an adult. My step father was emotionally abusive to me. I was diagnosed with ADHD whilst working for the church as Youth Pastor. My step Dad remarried. The Church turned against me.
I made my own way in life working the the care sector. I started to explore Celtic Christianity. Then my boyfriend became Norse Pagan. I started to explore Celtic Welsh Paganism and I got engaged. Hanfastening planned. Really happy. Despite health struggles. I have found peace and happiness on my new path :)
This video is important because it helps give a label to the pain and struggles of the scars from Christianity. The spiritual, mental, physical, social, sexual, and/or financial abuse we have experienced.
For me, Latent Christianity has affected me in more areas than I realized, even after this video. I did not realize the effect it could have from struggling to find a religious system I feel like I "fit.
I usually put the gods above me because of Latent Christianity, and I didn't even realize that I could pray and offer gifts without the need of feeling insignificant.
So as usual, thanks Ocean. You're the best.
Agreed
Same, I am an atheist and went through the whole fear of Hell thing but there is now a kind of disgust towards Heaven. If you know of Hell I can not be happy or even a base state of boredom in Heaven. I can only be in constant unending psychological torment and anyone that they could know of Hell and not feel that same is saying Heaven keeps you from having any level of empathy.
@@n0etic_f0x agreed. Soooo hell = 😖🔥. Heaven =🤖🤖🤖
Love your channel Ocean been thinking about Pagans and legends. I don't think i can call myself a pagan without losing my family forever but im intrigued non the less especially in regard to.the norse gods i dont know if i reject spirituality but i do call myself anti theist but feel a tie to history and the earth and the ancient ways largely tied to celtic music and cultural traditionalusic in general
@@atheistechoes9594 I have to say that is not a family worth keeping. I know that sounds horrible but it is one of the best things I’ve ever done. Trying to reconnect with my dad is pain and he is far better than he was.
I picked my own family a long time ago and I am so glad that I did. Extreme action sure but it is one I think more people would take if only they thought about it.
I've been a Pagan for close to 25 years now and I struggled with that pesky late-night worry that hell might be real for the first dozen at least. It stops, eventually.
Not for my mom. It cropped back up for her in her mid-late 40's. She went back to christianity. But I also suspect that she didn't properly deconstruct and just views her pagan days as a youthful rebellious phase.
@@natasham.8879 thats very interesting
from my point of view(A hindu point of View, not all though) Hell's real, but is just a waiting room for evil doers before being sent back to eart. Sam,e with heaven but instead of evil doers it's good-doers.
That was not a problem for me (I left Islam). In fact, I recognized the doctrine of Hell as one of the most serious logical problems of Abrahamic monotheism because a place of eternal torture is simply logically incompatible with a perfectly good being like God. Hell was one of the reasons I concluded that Islam and Christianity (at least traditional Christianity) are false. I am not worried about Hell because I know that if the Abrahamic God exists, there is no such place like Hell. If he doesn't exist (which is what I believe), well, there's again no reason to worry.
@@Nexus-jg7ev This reminds me of how messed up Passover is. The fact that an all loving god would send angels down to drag innocent first born boys of their homes and slit their throats in front of their families just to prove a point...
Theres a reason why in Irish Catholicism those of us who leave are called "Recovering Catholics". It takes a long time to untangle that web, and I've found that a lot of personal exploration into your own Wyrd helps a great deal.
Thats an interesting way to look at it
Indeed.
I was also raised an Irish Catholic, and yes it does take some time to untangle that unholy web.
That has affected me. Whenever I hear about honoring ancestors, I keep thinking "most of my ancestors want me to go back to church and stop fooling around with other religions."
Yes, yes, yes!
I love the synthwave thing Ocean Keltoi has going on.
I think the "heathens do not pray" crowd might have heathens mixed up with Klingons.
That's a great point. As hilarious as that would be were it true heathens and Klingons were the same. 1.) Considering the Klingons killed their gods cause theu couldn't be bothered with them is problematic. 2.) I'm not sure the cast systems are compatible.
@@Drakelich-1 Worf, " Klingons killed their gods, they were more trouble than they were worth."
Some line out of Star Wars Legends, " Mandalorians killed their gods of War, and worship the act of war in and of its self."
@@Drakelich-1 in my mind that was always a symbolic story for their culture being atheist, as Star Trek never really presents deities as real.
Even the Q are not seen as gods, even though that's basically what they are.
@@Nerobyrne Star Trek has a weird trend of discussing deity in general, (At least TOS). I recently got into that series and it's perspective on religion is strange and inconsistent. Might be something to dive deeper into later.
@@OceanKeltoi That's going to be interesting!
I can't wait to see your take on it.
I think TOS came out during a time of heavy pushback against religion (mostly just Christianity) in USA, for reasons that should be pretty obvious.
Unfortunately, the pendulum swung a bit too wide, as these things usually do when a counter-culture emerges.
I think we need to set up a petition thingy to rename Pascal's Wager as "Pascal's Mugging"
Oh boy has latent Christianity made things difficult for me for a looong time. From my rebellious (and borderline dangerous) atheist years (late teen to about 28~29), to even now... From doubting my new path when I first toyed with the idea of becoming Heathen, to not wanting to bother the gods with the insignificant problems in my life, to the difficult transitioning of my understanding how an afterlife and eternal punishment (and lack there of) is supposed to work. Well said Ocean.
9:36 "thought crimes" *hardcore flashback to the time my mother taught me God could read my mind and was constantly scanning it for sin*
At least now I know who to blame. (And learning that other gods don't do that and aren't concerned with the practice has been a big help.)
Christian god is the Thought Police. Many pagan friends tell me that was the best thing about leaving the faith. They no longer had Big Brother in their heads, spying on everything they did and every thought they had and judging them. They felt like a huge weight was lifted off their shoulders.
"We can still pray and acknowledge the vast presence of the gods, but we can replace unhealthy submission with a healthy respect and reciprocity."
What??? That one hit.
Got an ad for the Book of Mormon right as the video was ending… Guess RUclips has latent Christianity, as well.
Certainly does! If you click on nearly any video that has religious elements, you may get a Christian ad or the like. 🤧
In terms of "purity culture" the belief in personal cleanliness can only be a boon to a person's life. Cleansing myself through ritual has helped me keep up hygiene routines during times of extreme depression. It's an inherently positive tradition because it can only serve to push you towards more hygienic practices.
the entro was packaged quite nicely into a stream of one very long pun. treebeard would've been proud of your long windedness.
ok but seriously, what the 'suitcase jesus' said was exactly what my mom said, unironically
The purity culture point. Like Christianity in most it's expressions are literally just Purity cults.
Agreed
@@Empathicecologist I think cultural throughlines morph somewhat with each generation based on what’s in living memory, not discounting your approach at all just saying I look at things differently, and the through line I saw was the one emphasized by my parents. “People suck.” So you’re bad, hence you need to be saved, by blood sacrifice, because you deserve hell. Why? Shit… umm… well, you’re not a murderer, slaver, usually not a liar… fuck…. Cause [REDACTED] i think it’s the same thing as people pointlessly doubting individual aspects of themselves that are perfectly fine because of the general feeling that they dislike themselves somehow
I wonder if latent Christianity can extend to physical acts. For example, during my personal rituals, I often don't know what to do with my hands. Should I join my hands together, like I did when I was a Catholic? Should I adopt Orans pose? Should I let my arms dangle by my side? I may be over thinking it. But it is a thought that crosses my mind every time I prepare for my hearth cult.
Great video either way, Ocean! As always, you make some very interesting points and puns!
I think this is definitely an example
I often extend my hands skyward and resort to gesticulations while making my affirmations, I find it helpful personally.
I can’t help but notice general christian influences here and there but I’m getting better at catching myself and staying mindful of them. It’s just unfortunate to me how Christianity subconsciously permeates social media, culture, norms, language, almost every aspect of regular life.
I always use 🙏
turns out they are "mudras" and all spiritual. theres even portraits of Buddha and christ doing similar hand gestures
Catholics ripe most of their rituals from pagan Rome anyhow. The whole Crossing oneself in blessing was a Mars ritual to focus and limber up for combat. The eight spoke wheel or cross on sun burst are lines of attack/ defense.
My tiny altar is at the base of a tiny Ash tree I planted years ago. I just leave my hands on the ground in this cleared out little earth patch under the tree. Then again I'm new to this and haven't actually found an active community in my area. So I kinda just go about my own thing learning what I can from places like this
thank you for this. Leaving Christianity was a long hard journey and I am still unpacking the religious trauma. having it all laid out so simply is very helpful.
Glad to hear it. We did a followup livestream on it with someone who promotes 'deconstructing' their faith. it was a really interesting dialogue.
I want to thank you, Ocean(and friends) for being a realistic, thought provoking, informative and well spoken source for us whom are just beginning our journey. My face has remained buried in books, my eyes and ears eagerly watching and listening to all the content! You are appreciated. As a avid student of history, truth, EX Episcopalian and completely closeted nerd eagerly searching for spirituality that speaks to me... thank you.
I feel like latent Christianity is a part of my edgy militant atheist phase when I first deconverted (this being 6ish years ago). I'm not proud of the spite I held towards religion, but I feel I am continuing to move past it.
Im proud of you that you grew as a person :)
I know so many people who go through this phase. It's not just you!
So you religious again?
@@mistylover7398 No. Just (hopefully) less of a bitter asshole
@@noraarcadia635 really? I want to try something then. * hits you * forgive me?
Christianity really messed me up about religion for a while, because I remember when I was Christian, I had a bible, and the binding on the side was falling apart, and I just thought, "Oh no, if this gets any worse I won't be able to go to heaven"
My brother was complaining about that last Sunday when he stopped over for coffee after church. Another congregant was ragging at him for his bible being in such poor shape and it bothered him. Listening to him talking about this really worried me because he's a proud butthole, doesn't care who thinks what about him, but he was questioning his relationship with his god because some dude with less faith than he criticized the well-used state of his religious tool. My brother's a devout Pentacostal, and though I have problems with that particular cult, it's helped him straighten his life out and get himself put together; and he's my oldest sibling, a 50 year old man shouldn't carry himself like an 11 year old boy who's just been told he's a worthless piece of crap. I looked at him and told him that if his bible weren't meant to be read and referred to often, he wouldn't have had one of his own; that I would have questioned his faith if the same bible he'd had for the past 30+ years were still as pretty as it had been then. Religious tools are meant to be used and loved. Sorry for the super long reply, I just felt the need to whine about something that shouldn't be an issue anyways lol.
In the late eighties my mother got involved in a christian cult. I think they approached her on the street and started a conversation, inviting her to a service. I think she went and they gave her their version of the bible. She got some weird energies from it and started having really dark and vivid visions, she says she felt a shadowy presence following her around and saw things like the ravens of death devouring her. She is incredibly sensitive, but doesn't usually believe that stuff.
She wanted to throw the book away but was terrified of being punished for throwing away a bible. In the end she went to see the vicar of the local parish and he told her to just chuck it in the bin and she'd be fine. Of course she was and the weird stuff stopped, but she felt guilty about it for years!
Yup. It's the biggest brainwashing guilt trip in all of history. I've never in my life been Christian, which was always funny to me. Reading 'Exploring The Northern Tradition' by Galina Krasskova, I recall the passage where she says "none of us come to the Gods as blank religious slates." Hehe, yeah I did. Nothing about Christianity ever appealed to me, and having learned more about history on my own over the last few years than I ever did in school has helped me realize even more how lucky I was to be spared such nonsense. Humans are mentally lazy. Most of us believe what others tell us because it's simpler that way, rather than realizing history has two stories to it, with mostly only one being told. There aren't even 'your side and my side' aspects to this argument. There is just right and wrong. And what Christianity has done to the world for the last twenty centuries is the height of wrong. I have known at least three women who tolerated, even accepted, being beaten and raped by their own HUSBANDS or FATHERS because the bible (no I deliberately didn't capitalize that) taught them to be good little subservient wifey poos because the men in question were, well, men, and thus could do no wrong and deserved to do whatever they felt like to women. All three of these women were Christian (I don't even like capitalizing that word) and they cited the bible's 'teachings' as the reason why they took this horrific treatment from their own husbands. My apologies for this novel, this is a highly important subject to me and I have no one in my daily life to talk to about it hehe.
@@companylovesmisery1463 Novel length comments always grab my attention. It means the person has something interesting to say.
It sucks that so many people misinterpret the bible. What I find strange is that folks on both sides of those situations automatically seem to think women are lesser than men despite the fact that men were birthed by women. The psychological compartmentalization that separates that from their god being greater than the humans it made is astounding. I sincerely hope those women find their way to safety, and their abusers to screw up in some other area of their lives bad enough to remove them from their victims' lives.
Even as a kid being raised Baptist Christian, I didn't understand the distance between a deity and their adherent. I'm now pagan (have been since my mid teens), and I still don't get it. I consider my gods as close as family, and I did it as a child to their god, too.
@@JariDawnchild I wish I could say that was the case. Two of them are exes of mine, and neither one is in my life anymore, but I know one of them remained married to such an evil man. The other one I speak of left her abuser, but she still pines for him for whatever reason. I think because he was 'good in bed' and 'he could cook.' People and their priorities eh? The last person I was mentioning is a friend of mine who lives in the Philippines and was treated that way by her father. I live in New Mexico for context, so I know what it's like to hear from monotheists (Catholics in my neck of the woods) how I'm just wrong and stupid and 'don't I know it's what Jesus would want?' If we were just meant to be vessels for any deity's wants and plans, we would not have free will, we would not be able to decide to do wonderful things, or horrible things, like what was done to these three women of my acquaintance. I don't see those men being punished for it though, and they would use that as justification for their 'belief's. Sick.
I feel this. Growing up in a heavy "christian" family, searching through that faith, and coming to realization of my polytheism give or take a year ago. Being openly pegan, and struggling to remove the after effects of christians and surroundings
I always struggle when I try to do more than just inform myself on the faith. Whenever I attempt to actually practice my faith more than wearing a hammer and researching the history I always have that anxiety that rears in my head like an uncomfortable itch. "What if everyone's right? What if Jesus, God, heaven, he'll, what if it's all real. Will he punish me? Will I go to hell for practicing a religion that isn't Christianity." It's something that I struggle with semi frequently being a sapling pagan. But I just always have to remember that if I wasn't meant to follow this path the old gods wouldn't have been so damn insistent that I notice them. To all fellows in this mental trap, push onward. The gods are worth the work of shedding our old practice. And we as practicioners deserve to shed the abuse of our religious backgrounds. We deserve better.
This is a seriously bothersome fact sometimes but a topic worthy of deep exploration, because not recognizing it might make us blind to certain shocking details. Stay mindful out there and skål y’all.
I was actually raised in a pagan household but still have aspects of this from 1. just living in our christianized society and 2. because my mother was raised Catholic along with her seven siblings, who along with their children, still mostly practice to some extent. So even though I never went to church, all funerals, baptisms, first communions, etc. where obviously held there and had a mass. I remember being afraid of going to hell as a child even though I had literally never been to a single Sunday mass.
Because it is a natural human feeling that God inspires since birth, has nothing to do with latent Christianity.
I'm glad we have a term for this since it was something I struggled with for years and still sort of do, be it when I was a staunch atheist or a pagan now.
The fear of damnation and scare tactics from Christians had me seeing world religions through a narrow lens that they all have the same power dynamic and the gods are violent, jealous beings to be feared because if you step out of line, you'll be in for it. Even when I was exploring my path and on the fence, that latent Christianity came out and thought there was only one way to worship or venerate the gods because anything else was disrespectful or just blasphemous. It's a lot to process and I don't blame anyone for feeling stuck or in a loop over it.
Over active imagination from grief that lead people into thinking they were talking to ghost, if there are ghost, then there has to be an afterlife. Even I had to deal with 1980's Southern Baptist bull crap preaching ghost are demons and your grand parents do not watch over you from heaven. All the dead remain in their graves till Christ second coming, and they paddle that into their Sunday school children.
@@krispalermo8133 i thought all christians believed in gosts
@@angryunicornproductions2633 Each given church and average age group form their own little echo chamber cult group think.
In that regard, there is no such thing as ... All .. Christians.
As a practicing Pagan for roughly 36 years, I still struggle with this on occasion and, as my father and stepmom became ordained pastors some 23 years ago, I may have come out of the broom closet, but I still have my hand on that door knob, Lol. I've come a very long way though. Fear of 'persecution' runs strong in many Pagans and I can't seem to shake that feeling that it will rear its ugly head once more. Ugh.
This is something I struggle with coming from another branch of the abrahamic faith (islam) which I left a while back. The whole concept of hell and heaven to me is more of a state of mind as opposed to a physical place. The idea of an omnipotent and omniscient creator demanding worship sounds honestly plain vain to me as well. Ive been teetering between that and now im leaning more towards being agnostic but exploring other faith backgrounds such as buddhism and even other indo european religions. Another reason which I left is due to research on how the religion was spread forcefully on my ancestors and the influence to this day that it continues which makes me disgusted. Seeing this video helps put things into perspective because even I have that residual “what if” scenarios or divine punishment for not following the faith that was put onto me at birth. Cheers 🤘
Islam does preach that heaven and hell are state of minds. They are either the after life with connection with God or Without. I ask you to analyze the Novel, Secrets of Divine love by Hewla. She took your route as well and turned away from Islam to analyze other religions like Buddhism and then eventually re routed back, it is a beautiful book. Please read it if you can.
Worst opening pun. I groaned so loud my partner came to check I was ok. 😂
This really resonates with me, as all of your videos that deal with Latent Christianity do (well, all of your videos!). I grew up in a Pentecostal family in the Deep South, and GAWD was portrayed a a wrathful Father and only through the Blood of the Lamb would I be saved. Only through research and investigation did I finally begin to stop seeing Valholl as some sort of Norse Heaven. With the Aesir I feel that I am accepted for being myself, and the only expectation is to be a good and honorable man and to keep my oaths. As a gay man Christianity had been a noose around my neck ever since I was old enough to realize that I was gay and that I was going to Hell because Jesus. I could write a very long post about my "pray-the-gay-away" camp trauma, and the "unspoken prayer requests" , and the praying over me with the congregation "speaking in tongues." It took a long time, and to be honest, it is still a problem to shed that feeling that I am somehow sinning and going to Hell. I feel that I am growing closer to Thor who gives me strength and courage, and I recently passed a major medical renewal exam and gave thanks to Odin for the wisdom... but then again, isn't that just Latent Christianity? I'm still struggling, but your videos are immensely helpful. Keep it up, Ocean!
As a queer, black female, who was raised only a few steps away from IBLP/ATI. Christianity has been toxic to me. I haven’t even thought about replacing it with another god or gods. I feel like it is a bad relationship and it’s best just to not “date” any new gods until I’m in a better place.
I am sorry for your hardships, but if you have a lot of cats hanging out where you live and they are friendly to you. There is the Egyptian goddess Bast.
She is not very demanding that you keep cats of your own. As for myself doing some artwork for a few lady friends, I had a problem of .. impulse .. buying stuff toy cats and giving them away as gifts to people, which made more than a few people happy with the surprise gift.
Comparing it to a toxic relationship is a great idea.
Just because one person is bad doesn't mean they're all bad 😊
But also, nobody should be mad at you if you just never date again.
I am a lesbian nordic - celtoi witch (Völva) and I hated Jesus and the Christian God since I was a little girl. I never know why. But then I heard about the nordic gods, the greek gods, the egyptian gods, the indian spirits, fae and so on. Our world is filled with wonderful deities and entitys, and I fall in love with the ancient horned god. He is the oldest god I know and the first humans in caves worshipped him. We don't have to work with deities, but it feels right for me to connect to Cernunnos/Herne/Pan/Enkidu, Cerridwen, Odin and Anubis.
(Sorry for my bad english 😅)
I think I have pretty much zero latent Christianity left. Back when I still struggled with latent Christianity, I had a sense of anger toward that faith. I am much more at peace with it now, I can even appreciate the Christian faith, from the outside looking in. It feels good to be free from the guilt and fear associated with that system.
It's nice to hear that's a possibility. Thank you
I would say for me it was my entering into teenage years. I spent my early childhood in a virtual state of homelessness moving here and there. My stepfather was abusive, my mother was a drug addict, and my father was never in a good financial situation (still isn't). One thing that always reared its ugly head though was the fact I still always was forced to go to some sort of church. I remember some of the things were really messed up and I began noticing it in my teenage years. What sealed the fate was my 2 years in a Christian school and my time in the military, especially after my first deployment. There's still some things I might say and I might suck it up if my nieces and nephews have a big event at school (I was adopted), but for the most part I stay away from churches as much as I can.
I mean, I feel like this is a legitimate problem. Being indoctrinated into such an engrained and established religion, it makes it difficult to unpack that baggage. I think because of the lack of structure in the Pagan community we are at a disadvantage. Our nonconforming ways are a double edged sword, its what draws people out of abusive Christianity but also what makes it difficult to build on our own faith, because the rules are there are no rules. Sure we have the Hávamal and the Eddas, but we dont have the same structure of community that Christians do. I think what would really help is if moderates in the community had their own Halls or groups. The AFA is blatantly Racist and the TAC uses the Gods as political tools. So im not comfortable with either, but a better Heathen community would make it much easier to toss the suitcase.
I think the biggest piece of baggage I have is that I'm trying to find the one right thing...
I believe in both norse and greek gods and for a long time I thought I'd have to decide, but I no longer think this way, because... why would I have to decide? Who said I have to decide? That's a christian thing, with their abusive and extremely envious god, who said that there is only them and you can't worship anyone else beside them.
But despite this, I feel a lot more comfortable after I left christianity, especially because... well, being gay and transgender isn't really something that has a place in catholisism...
I'm just going to keep going, keep wondering and keep trying to figure out what's right for me.
This video really hit home
I feel like I’m much better as a person, more free, now that I no longer worry that I’m a “bad person” for having thoughts pop into my head. Even though I wasn’t a practicing Christian, for years I followed the line of only being good and having good thoughts and anything other than that meant I was a bad person.
Paganism has taught me so much about history and myself.
The concept of Catholic guilt followed me and still does to this day. What really sucks is when you do something you are proud of and then immediately feel that twinge of guilt for feeling pride.
Excellent discussion here!
Though as someone who was raised more New Age than anything else, I was wondering if you had any observations about "latent New Age" tendencies.
Because after leaving that belief system I have noticed its influence EVERYWHERE.
One idea that helps me laugh at my lingering latent Christianity is this:
Based on Christian dogma and ethics, there are people in Heaven who I hated in life and people in Hell who I loved in life.
If that’s the case, then I’d probably resent going to Heaven because I’d miss people in Hell.
That is the messed up emotional and spiritual abuse of Christians.
I woeet abt that
Catholics teach that part of the happiness you enjoy in heaven is derived from viewing the torture of people in hell. Once we die we'll not only understand why gay people and those lost to suicide deserve to suffer for eternity, but we'll be super duper psyched about it.
as a teen I realized most all my friends at school weren't particularly religious, and I asked a teacher at confirmation classes how I could be happy in heaven if all my worldly friends were in hell.
she told me I'd forget they'd even existed. I was utterly horrified by the concept then and disgusted by it now.
Christian universalists don't believe hell to be a permanent place, original scripture indicated that the soul would be in hell until it's not needed there anymore, after that it goes to the heavens or makes a full circle.
Thank you for this. I don't know if I will ever completely get rid of latent Christianity, but hopefully I can leave the suitcase behind on Earth when I move on to whatever comes next.
Norse Paganism has drawn me, but my catholic baggage is still there. I literally find myself swearing in Finnish just to feel less guilty about uttering “JC!” Whenever shits just not going right.
I really resonated with what you said about feeling guilt over not doing enough. I am eclectic and pray to a variety of gods and spirits (with Lilith as my favorite), but I so often feel that I am neglecting them and not doing enough.
I'm so glad I'm past all this. But then, with Loki at my shoulder and speaking in my ear for the past 60 years, it never really took hold in the first place. There's no escaping the societal ramifications of the Judeo-Christian ideals written into our laws, and we have to make peace with that, but we can eventually get to a place where we can permit ourselves to let go of the personal sense of anger and regret we tend to carry over from our association with pedantic religiosity. It may take more time for some than for others, but trust me, it can be done.
Because of suitcase jesus I struggle to pray to the Gods... And I have no idea why.
Now iam thinking this kind of Christianity robbed me of thinking because I was a curious kid and it never had room for all my questions and as a grown up now iam 99% unspiritual. Hm.
Whoever is in charge will suffer more in a moment than the whole of Hell's purported entirety when the sick thing is made aware of itself again.
Thank you for this video. I'm still struggling to get this kind of pain out of my current feelings with Christianity. This perspective is going to help me in the long run.
Christian humility that did and continues to do a number on me. I was barely a Christian in the church of England style. Births wedding and funerals nothing more. Even with that little time in church it still got to me.
I have to work at stopping my self from playing down my abilities and accomplishments.
And sacrifice for the algorithm god's
This is definitely a helpful video as I finally begin a journey into paganism after trying to ignore the feeling of being called towards it for so long exactly because of the fear of any sort of spirituality after leaving Christianity.
One thing I can point out with myself, is that I had thought I had dealt with a lot of the trauma associated there already while going through my phase as an atheist, but noticed I had really mostly just suppressed thinking about most of it. Specifically the fear of hell started to rear up again as soon as I just let myself consider that maybe something spiritual exists at all, and something I hadn't even noticed until this video, but I had definitely also had some of those unhealthy ideas about prayer, and it requiring you submitting to the gods, definitely affecting me when I first started trying to pray to the Morrigan. It's really helpful to see that confronted, so I even notice it's a thing I was doing, and y'know, can actually confront that now, and extra helpful that it's early on with my journey personally so I can try to not further ingrain those bad habits.
I noticed in Christianity, the prayers seem to be very nihilistic. Asking things from God. Me me me! Make my life "better". George Carlin's bit about praying comes to mind. Anyway, one night not too long ago I made an offering to the Norse gods not out of fear that if I didn't I would be sent to some torturous afterlife, but because I wanted them to know that I recognize them and invite them into my life. It was a powerful moment and you, Ocean, have helped in that.
Absolutely amazing video Ocean! You made a lot of great points and summarized concepts very eloquently! I loved the mention of Pascal's Wager and showing how flawed it is beyond a surface level understanding.
I feel like the odd man out, I embrace my latent Christianity.
This might be a result of me being in a less toxic Canadian-Presbyterian church than the more evangelical American churches, but I never feared God. The conflict was never "obey or burn", for us it was emphasized that the nature of the divine can only be understood through contemplation and research, and that the will of the divine can only be made manifest by democracy and equitable practices.
Notions that made me question Christendom as a whole purely because I could not reconcile Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnibenevolence in an Omniexistensial being.
These ideas are what fundamentally lead me to Paganism. Ideas that I still hold dearly, and why Christ and my late Reverend are both Ancestors I consider worthy of veneration. Because when I look to the resurrection of Lazarus, the feeding of the masses, Christ throwing merchants from the Temple, I see a man trying his best to make a good Path rather than a divine being casting judgement.
Considering that I left the cult of the nailed one rather early, mentally quit before my 9th winter- totally leaving some three years later when my paternal grandmother died, not much baggage.
Kinda the same. I wasn’t raised religious, but I still have to deal with Christianity due to being in the US south.
The Cult of the Nailed One. I like that! I think I'll take that, if you don't mind?
The cult of the nailed one is funny lol
It feels reassuring to hear someone put into words something that I've felt for years. The fear of Hell or the judgment and punishment that condemns one to hell for basically just being a human has hung over me most of my life, and I left Christianity a long time ago.
I can identify with this, as the son of a Presbyterian church minister. I was subjected to a quadruple dose of indoctrination, with most of my childhood revolving around our Christian home and church activities. It wasn't until my 30s that I seriously started to question things, and I think I'll always have some mental baggage because of it, no matter how much I learn and realise that its incompatible with reality.
This totally resonates! Thanks ocean, your insights are so thought out.
Your voice and your mind are a salve. Thank you for sharing them.
I managed to dodge the worst of Latent Christianity somehow by never internalizing the toxic parts of Christianity. I was one of those annoying children who kept asking "why?" long after it was comfortable for anyone. This video helps me to understand my so many of my fellow escaped Christians are so angry at Christianity, divinity, or even religion in general. They are constantly having to shout "shut UP!" at suitcase-Jesus. Whereas, the Jesus I brought with me doesn't understand the Christians either. I can hear him muttering in the back of my head. "Yeah, man, I didn't tell them to do any of this stuff. Please don't blame me."
I really don't know how i feel about religion because while i feel spiritual, i also feel like I'm larping more than actually believing
I do not .. believe .. I just take a few given things as facts cause I seen a lot of strange zhit in my life.
Religious ritual is witchcraft invoking spirits/gods with mostly of no understanding of science.
The rituals of witchcraft is the science of " cause & effect."
Research on Aikido & Reiki, it fits in line with the hand gestures of prayer the early 1900's Sicilian Roman Catholics use to practice. If you are raised in it, then there is no problem cause you just grew into the practice as an everyday thing, but for other people it is a three to five year study. Dealing with pushing energy fields in the surrounding air is like practicing boxing under water.
You don't have to be religious to be spiritual
Just a quick comment for the algorithm, but I personally have a very "Crom" style view of prayer. If you're alive the gods have given you more than enough. Beyond that is up to you.
"And if you do not listen, then TO HEL WITH YOU!"
@@stairwayunicorn4861 And SMOTE BY LIGHTNING. Know your place mortal.
@@stairwayunicorn4861 ur name is cool
Theramin Trees made a fantastic video picking apart Pascal's wager. He's an atheist but still appliable to polytheism.
I have an example of latent Judaism that might also affect latent roman catholics. When I first was looking into paganism it felt so weird doing rituals in English because all major prayers in my life had been done in Hebrew. I wondered if I should learn Greek to pray to the Greek gods, just because things felt more spiritual if I did them in another language.
A couple of weeks ago one of your videos titled "panera hates pagans" made it into my recommendations and I've been watching you ever since. I find your channel and the community you've made here quite comforting, especially since I'm an exmuslim with a lot of pent up rage against the muslim and christian god. I've since slowly shed that "all religion is bad" mentality and I'm starting to do more research into heathenry since it interests me. Thank you for the informative and witty videos.
I have never been able to shake the whole guilt thing, or the idea that the gods might be displeased. Even a decade away from Christianity and that one keeps sticking around
For me it was mainly reactionary religion. Not in a political but rather religious sense. If some concept was similar to Christianity I tried to do something different. So I tried to do an "opposite Christianity" rather than explore actual religiosity. Christianity still dictated what to do but in a twisted way.
It kinda makes sense since at that time I was going through teenage rebellion.
I still have Christians trying to engage me in abusive games and - quite naturally - telling me that it's all my fault.
Tell them to embrace Grace not hate! 😂
Makes me glad I was raised pagan... I find it interesting that I'd just been wondering where a new Ocean video was, and within a few hours... Poof, this pings!
it is difficult to drop the basic scaffolding all at once after "leaving" Christianity. I have since replaced a lot of basic concepts with things I have found in various religions/philosophies from around the world. My problem is that I was never socially accepted into a group. Now I'm finding concepts that mirror what is inside of me. Not being able to talk about stuff that I have experienced was one of my problems. There are words and understanding for what I have experienced outside of "Christian" concepts.
I love that suitcase Jesus sounds like that really nice guy from Family Guy 😆
I really could never figure out why my self esteem was so shit and why I hated myself for existing to the point of being severely depressed until I left Christianity.
Once I finally let the feeling of hell go, and basically told myself it's okay I would rather burn than continue to live in misery was I finally able to let the whole 'God said I'm bad so I should feel bad' go.
I've only finally been able to rebuild my mental health recently, finding much kinder dieties to work with. And you sir word it better than I ever could, dont follow the Norse Pantheon myself, but thankyou for helping me gain peace of mind through your videos.
It's better to burn in 🔥than praise the evil God that created such a vile cruel abortion for innocent souls. Wonder if Satan could be the real good guy.
@@mistylover7398 why do ppl keep saying the christian god is evil
@@angryunicornproductions2633 why do believers call devil evil??
@@angryunicornproductions2633 you must be Christian.
@@mistylover7398 bc he lied to adom and ev
"Either one is right and the rest is wrong, or they're all wrong" You did it! You boiled the Mormon church down to its base elements!
I myself now a full fledged Atheistic Satanist have a more pluralistic view of the world and yes I had escaped Christianity via paganism then later transitioned again but I had the same mindset as one is right and everyone else is wrong for quite a while but as time went on and I grew I mainly became a knowledge seeker. "Coveting it above all else and chained down by sin" as a preacher once confronted me and went onto damn me to his hell and I walked away but all the while never feeling malice. By the way love your videos and hope you continue on this ride, you are a great storyteller and a fountain of information. Hail Thyself 🖤
Agreed
I'm lucky enough to have never been christian, raised atheist, now eclectic. still though, interesting to see how christianity has effected people even after leaving the faith.
Definitely relatable even tho I was raised as a Muslim. I don't think it was hard for me to leave Islam when I was 16 because I've never felt the preasure to be a Muslim, however I recognize that I'm one of the lucky ones to be born in Bosnia and Herzegovina, a multiethnic country with three main religions (Islam, Catholicism and Orthodox christianity) ...
When it comes to Allah, he is very different from the Christian God and in many aspects, the Muslim religion offers you more when it comes to the matters of one's soul. However, there are many things that didn't sit well with me when it comes to practices and how women are viewed, in general, in abrahamic religions so I choose to be free with my gods.
The struggle that I have found is distinguishing between the good philosophical points from Christianity and which ones are baggage that do not hold to Universal or practical or principled Truths. I owe a debt to my Christian upbringing, but my soul feels like it is busting out the seams of whatever it is that contains it.
I find it reflected sometimes in my immediate words/terminology to the Gods, and then I feel slightly shamed. They simply don’t function the same, nor should they.
I still struggle with the idea that my gods do not blame me for an assult that happened to me. When I hold ritual I find myself still thinking of asking them to forgive me for that bastardes decision.
Love this. I came to the heathen path about six months ago. I left Christianity about four years ago. I still sometimes have a struggle about how to go about worshiping the gods. Mostly because of the Latent Christianity that still effects me. I find myself moving toward one god in particular because it is still hard for me sometimes to worship multiple. But I know regardless, the gods have shown me more than Jesus Christ ever did. Much less from what I witnessed in churches when I was in Seminary. Some very crooked stuff for the one religion that apparently the pure truth.
Thankfully I've been out of it for so long most of those little weeds of systemic abuse have cropped up enough time and again that I've pulled them, roots and all. I am annoyed by how christianity inserts itself into so many other things still, and I may never stop seeing that, but I think that sight is a good thing because it makes the journey out of that suitcase easier and easier as time goes on. It's simply "What's right for me," and my values, not what someone tells me I'm "supposed" to do.
I rewatch this video frequently and always find some new single sock of long-past christian times in a side pocket of my inner suitcase. Often it is an iteration of not being good enough for me to bother the Gods with my unworthy presence, like again recently. Then one shows up in some unexpected aspect of my life and gives me the spiritual equivalent of a shoulder pat. I have not been christian for close to three decades, but this baggage still shows up and annoys the living daylight out of me and I will never stop being grateful to the Gods for their patience with me and my self-doubts.
I've been calling it "deconstructing internalized toxic christianity." Same concept, really. I don't always throw in "toxic" either. As far as I am concerned it's more toxic than not and there's no need to be repetitive. Personally, my biggest struggle is purity culture. It's so pervasive in our culture that it's basically the standard for how women are expected to behave almost regardless of religion. It's exhausting, but also has been some of the hardest stuff for me to deconstruct. Another one I've been really working on is the notion that knowledge is somehow "evil." The phrase "Knowledge is power, power corrupts. Study hard, be evil." I never had any desire to be perceived as "evil." Because of this, I found myself holding myself to Christian standards of "goodness." Hence the struggle with purity culture, struggles with modesty, and throw in a healthy dose of shame for being plus sized.... Needless to say, it's been a lot of work to redefine what makes a person "evil" so I can finally deconstruct the rest of it. I have every right to be intelligent, I have every right to love the body I live in, and I have every right to use that body as I see fit. And I'm not "evil" for any of those ideas.
The ironic part? I was never really christian. I never identified myself that way, I rarely went to church, and I was never baptized. I recognized myself as a witch at 9 years old, at the same time I recognized that Christianity was wrong. Most of my internalized trauma comes from our christian culture, not from being a practicing Christian.
Because of so many requests in the past, there's a Suitcase Savior sticker / pin / magnet / mug for you to bother people with, or have show up and inconvenient times: www.redbubble.com/i/mug/Latent-Christianity-The-Suitcase-Savior-by-OceanKeltoi/79074083.9Q0AD
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Repent or Perish, it's your choice.
Another great video as always, thanks for giving me something to think about.
the concept of Valhalla raises a question. are there other such halls in the other realms, such as in elfheim for those that "act like elves in life" or would that be exclusively for elves?
would someone who "behaves like a giant" find an afterlife in giantheim? could there be a furheim for furries with its own furhalla? and can trekies "boldly go, where no one has gone before?"
Various Gods, Æsir or otherwise, do have halls. Valhöll is famous only for the macho boys to continue their fighting. Thor's hall Bilskirnir ís supposedly the largest, containing 540 rooms. Frigga's hall Fensalir, the Fen Lands. Folkwang is Freyja's hall of nine castles, also known as Sessrümnir. Ægir and Rán's Hall is beneath the ocean, the drowned taken into Rán's Hands. However, fishermen and those traveling the sea would contact Njörð, whose hall is Nóatún. If you died on land and not chosen by any of the above Goddesses or Gods, you could expect to go to Hel's hall Helheim.
But many of the other Goddesses and Gods and Jötan had their own halls too, which you may aspire to reach after your life ends.
@@renata_of_the_craft thats very interesting. thank you.
Thanks @OceansKeltoi !
For me it has taeken years of gradual insights into heathen philosophy and thought in comparison to the form of christianity I was brought up with to realize the difference.
It's a gradual process that will never fully end and it should not because the reflections and growth it contain!
A word that has helped me more to leave the "one truth" mindset is HENOTHEISM!
Perhaps do a video in this. I have a metaphor for this:
Each religion or spiritual path is like an ice-cream and we have our own preffereance of flavour etc and the other types are OK as well and humans do not need to judge each other for the preferences.
This thought might give some comfort to some who are struggling with fears over “maybe hell is real and I’m going there”. The thing that started me on the path from fundamental Baptist, to a “wandering” period, to becoming a pagan, is history. Think about how life existed for so many thousands of years far before Jesus, the Romans, or even stately polytheistic religions of Greece and the Near East. These are our ancestors. Did a single god create all of them before they could even know they needed to be saved but then just sent billions of them to hell until we had literacy and a holy book written in a foreign language to tell us how to live? It’s ludicrous. The god of the Old Testament is for the Hebrews, and that’s great for them. The New Testament is just a strange but wildly popular cult that shot off from that. That’s how I see it anyway.
Agreed about Yahweh being a god for the Jews and not a universal God
another thought: i brought up that if the tree of the knowledge of good and evil never existed, then adam and eve would still have free choice, just no decisions that may cost their soul. my mom replied with 'no its not. there needs to be a big decision ' lol.
The thing that bother me about the story was that before they ate the fruit they didn't know the difference between good and evil right and wrong but they still got punish
@@n3v3rm0r3 exACTly!!!
Sounds like my mom lol.
@@JariDawnchild sister? can it be? XD
Pagans just don’t understand, hate on our religion as much as you want but when you see God on the Golden throne he’ll decide your fate
Thank you Ocean!! I was a Christian and now I am a person who believes that many gods exist. I just worship one. I am glad I am not Christian anymore!! I still experience latent Christianity in myself once in awhile. I just have unlearn some things.
this video kind of blew my mind, because I thought that subservience, repentance, and hell and all that was an inherent aspect of religion. That is why I rejected spirituality as a whole for a long time, because I thought that acknowledging divinity meant i had to think of myself as lesser. that is not true though. thank you
I’ve been a pagan since the beginning of this year after I went through a very rough time and the gods made themselves known to me. I had been atheist for multiple years and when I was I dealt with the fear of hell and a fear of death. I also became very racist and homophobic as an embracing of the things I was inadvertently taught as a kid and that took a while to overcome. In the process I realized I was pansexual and after a very enlightening experience with a friend of mine who is trans, I realized how stupid I was. I’m in a much better place now and I couldn’t be happier to have found this path. I still deal with needing to affirm myself that I’m going to an after life and am still sticking to Odin in particular when it comes to god worship since he feels the most familiar given he’s the one that showed me the path and constantly made sure I felt his presence whenever I had doubts in the beginning. Anyways, I think I’ve rambled on enough now. Thank you Ocean for making your videos and being a great person and helping me escape WoO.
@@peaicipeacasa i have the same question
Here's to boost you up in the algorithm, but above all to thank everyone who commented with personal stories. Having finally come to terms with leaving Christianity, your examples are both heart warming and instructive: I know I'm not alone and there's better spiritual experience coming up!
I’ll give my own odd example of many that I have related to this- but I always think of tattoos. I love tattoos, I think they’re gorgeous and I hope to get some one day, but there’s that little voice in the back of my head trying to convince me that it’s a bad idea, that if I get a tattoo I’ll be impure and damaging myself forever. It’s such an odd phenomenon.
I'm so glad that i grew up in a atheist family and went to secular schools in a mostly non religious society._. There is so much baggage i don't have._.
IKR
I was raised Atheist. But latent Christianity definitely has had it's effect on me. Now that I'm a Pagan, I still feel it. This video is helpful. Thanks for making it!
This video and topic really hits hard for me, as a Christian-"escapee". I feel more liberated, free, and spiritual now than I ever felt. I don't have any negative or hateful feelings towards Yahweh/"God" or Jesus, and I believe they never meant for their followers to pull most of the shit they do, so I guess I left on good terms. However I just felt the religion wasn't for me. Being a latent Christian left it's marks in my life sadly, however I also feel I have learned very good lessons from the entire experience.
So relatable. Didn't know how much I needed this video 👍
One aspect of latent christianity I think I deal with is my altar and offerings. Christianity most churches have polished shiney metals and gold in some degree or another, they make the worship space regal. I tend to look at my humble home altar and wonder if its fancy enough, or if my offerings were good enough. I try to remind myself it's not the substance of what I have but the intent and the feeling behind it, but the thought is still a nagging one.
Mine mostly has wooden idols on it and looks really minimalist compared to some other altars i’ve seen out there. But I like it and i prefer a simple altar.
Love your content Ocean, always so thoughtful.
Totally agree with this video. Christianity is that abusive EX from a former relationship but I'm much happier now that I'm a pagan.
I am an atheist and have been for years now. I have never had a problem with 'latent Christianity' since I never truly believed. And by the way, your channel is amazing! 👍🏻I really enjoy it! You make people (at least me) to pay more attention to philosophy and religion, in general. Keep the good work up!
I converted to Hellenic Paganism about 4 months ago and your videos are very helpful and informal. Thank you