I struggled with a lot of latent Christianity (and still do a little bit with some things). And I see that struggle all the time in the witchcraft pages I'm in on FB. People having been raised in Christian households and asking how to best ask forgiveness to their god(s)/goddess(es) for not admitting they follow those god(s)/goddess(es) like is demanded of Christians who don't openly admit they worship YHWH/Christ. And there's so much fundamentalism in witchcraft circles preaching that anyone who doesn't practice or worship like they do (especially the three fold law preachers, karma preachers (even though they almost always get Karma wrong), and the harm none preachers. Those three are the worst ones, and often they're all in one person!) is wrong or being lied to. There are certainly sets of constants within the spiritual community as can be attested to by thousands of years of practice and study by elders before us, but everyone's path will be different and dogma shouldn't be preached in paganism.
A big part of that boils down to a (at least where I live) "see we're harmless nothing to see here " mentality. Which while it makes me wince I can certainly understand the instinct that prompts it.
Modern religion is designed to poison spirituality. It is going to be very difficult to remove this obstacle, but our friend here is moving in the right direction. 😁
Honestly the three fold law preachers have always seemed only inches away from the people telling pagans that theyre going to hell. I mean theyre both threatening divine retribution.
I definitely see this from fellow atheists... and attempt to guard against becoming fundamental about my disbelief the way I was fundamental about my belief.
Once saw a psychiatrist for an interview for a job (temporary, post retirement, so seemed silly but wanted the job) and he kept asking "belief" questions (knew nothing about him but respect fading fast) and I finally said "sometimes I wish I was certain, then I have to deal with someone who is and I am glad I'm not". End of interview. I actually got the job.
Dude, this is so real! I’ve been an ex-Christian for almost 8 years now, and I still have to fight with the “god-sized hole” that I’ve been left with. It’s legit made me do some crazy things, like practicing odd religious beliefs and following fringe movements. It’s absolutely maddening how far the mind will go to reclaim that feeling that “hard religion” gives people once you’ve de-christianized
Omfg..the pain I read so much about how much falsehood is in christianity and NONEXISTENT history but the heavy laden burden feelings are nothing but abuse.
I come from a strongly Catholic family (as in, my dad nearly became a priest) and this has something I've struggled with for ages. For about a year, I identified as a christian witch, and now I realize I was still scared of not being Catholic despite being openly heretical. But now it's been five years since Loki came into my life and I found solace. But Catholic guilt is a hell of a thing. Some days, I still wake up and wonder, "am I doing everything wrong?" It doesn't help that my family either knows nothing or passively-aggressively tries to bring me back to the faith. I just have to take it day by day and trust that the gods have my back.
My latent Christianity has me converted back multiple times because... God dammit the Traditional Latin Mass is so beautifully written and carried out. But I can not uphold the incoherancy of the Trinity, perpetuality of the Torah, infinite hell, failed prophecies, warping of the original Hebrew words.
I had the same problem for a while. Christianity has a certain simplicity about it that I can appreciate. And it's more culturally convenient. But I can't reconcile it's overwhelmingly extreme negatives, which are many of the same ones for me that they are for you.
I can relate. I really wanted to become a Roman Catholic because I wanted to join a Traditional Latin Mass parish....but the horrendous theology...I couldn't get through the Catholic Catechism without wanting to throw the book across the room every other page. Every ridiculous teaching is always justified by "We are the infallible Church magisterium and we are the only source of truth because we received our authority directly from Christ which is based on a single line of scripture in the Bible which we also wrote ourselves."
I was struggling with this a lot here recently by just starting my path in Heathenry. I was raised in a Christian household and was deeply in the faith of Jesus Christ for most of my life. About four years ago I started to think very critically and renounced my faith and became Atheist. And I would do the very thing Ocean talked about, I would make people feel bad for believing in any god/gods because I felt my rationality was correct. It's what I was trained to do as a Christian. The more I look to the gods and study Heathenry, the more I am beginning to feel at home, and feel more in my own skin. A better version of myself if you will. Thanks for this, Ocean. I really needed it.
So I know this video is old, but I just recently found Ocean Keltoi's channel and wanted to comment here. For background, I'm in my 20's and have been a practicing heathen since I was 14, when I read Alaric Albertson's A Walk Through Middle Earth: The Path of an Anglo-Saxon Pagan. My dad was an interim music director, so we went to a few different churches. I've attended presbyterian, lutheran, catholic, and baptist churches. My wife attended baptist church her entire life - and I mean deep south, the church members built the building, minister was a big dude with a Hulk Hogan mustache named "Preacher Billy" baptist church - and she definitely struggles with a lot of latent christianity. She has fought through a lot of harmful mentality more indicative of the people she was exposed to than the faith itself, but needless to say she took the first out she found from that belief system. The weird thing, though, is that I don't struggle with latent christianity, at least not that I can tell. To be fair, I never felt affected by things as much as people report being, even when I was fully into christianity, and I found out why just last year. I had finally felt comfortable telling my mom who I was and what I was doing. It felt necessary to me in light of my son, who I am going to teach the heathen path, being born. The really cool thing was that, when I told her, my mom told me that she and dad (who had passed some years prior) both had decided by the time I was born that they weren't "christian." They had developed their own beliefs, which I won't go into here, but suffice it to say I would just call it general "spirituality." They brought us to church because they wanted to expose my siblings and me to religion and faith in something, but actively worked to avoid those more intense or harmful messages. And now my mom is celebrating heathen festivals with my family! Again, I know it's an old thread, but I wanted to share.
I renounced my Christian faith a couple of years ago and every so often I still get that panicked feeling of, "What if I'm wrong and there is only one God and now I'm going to hell because I don't worship him anymore. " I seriously have to talk myself down like I'm suffering from a form of PTSD. Hopefully, over time, this won't be an issue and I can be my happy Pagan self, lol. As always, thanks for another awesome video Ocean.
Pagan for 4 yrs now still get the ole "what if I'm wrong" thought. I grew up in a small pentacostal church in central KY so ya know. The brain washing was... abrasive
More seriously, I'm a transgirl who's struggling a bit with well, I was never really christian, but within society still there's that demand for proof and I've really internalised that, despite having experienced for myself situations which physically could never be explained by science (Incredibly infrequent dreams containing generally small and asinine snippets of my future. Myself playing through part of a video game several days before I even learn of said game's existence, let alone buy it or reach that point in it, as the most memorable example). Oh, and also being a trans person in a society which is struggling to accept that, and having political views far to the left of what most people these days are willing to consider. Just a general trainwreck of a gay writer
Polytheist Pagan, worshipper of Loo Witt [Goddess of Mt. St. Helens], Anubis [Egyptian Judge and Protector of the Dead. Yes, I am a Medium. Makes life...interesting!] , Bastet [Egyptian Cat Godess] , Loki [The Real One but He finds all the increased love from the MCU funny as Hel!], and last but not least Bridgid [Celtic Goddess of many thing, including writing and being Bards.]. I also have communicated with the Fae World and left Milk and Treats for them. I come from Christian family and I remember my Grandma saying that she was worried I was going to Hell. I told her I had a first class ticket for a handbasket with A/C! Lol!
The thing about Christians is they refuse to believe that other gods do and have existed. Even though most of these religions are much older than Christianity and have more basis and foundations in mankind than Christianity. I don’t see pagans and polytheistic people asking for donations or money. I don’t see them building huge churches and asking for more fan base. I see them worshipping their god of choosing one that speaks out to them, and respecting the others as they should be.
@@waliyibnmichael922 The only time I bring up my religion around my parents is to make a joke. Like I went to a local Catholic church to hear an Irish Tenor sing. Emmett Cahill, btw, he was great. I joked that I was shocked the Holy Water font did erupt in flames or turn to blood when I walked past it. My dad got pissed. He also didn't find the humor in a lady's service dog being an Irish Setter since we were there to see an Irish Tenor.
@@waliyibnmichael922 Yeah, Dad can't handle that I speak different languages and use a lot of British terms and pronunciation. You should see him pop his lid when I say Mauve or Aluminum! Or Zebra!
@@waliyibnmichael922 Because there is no need for that stuff anymore. Things were different back in the ancient days and some of the gods still young by their standards. As time went on, I believe they have grown more in character themselves and knowledge. Most never really cared for worship as they preferred to be thought of as teachers. While they don't mind worship, they're not going to stop someone from doing so.
I'm new to Heathenry and I needed this so much. I needed someone to tell me it's okay not to be perfect. I needed someone to tell me it's okay to make mistakes or do things wrong. I needed someone to tell me that the gods are not watching my every move and judging me for every mistake. Thank you for helping me come to terms with this. You're a literal godsend for me.
I was raised in a very orthodox Taoist family eventually becoming a high rank leader in the Taoist community before becoming an agnostic. The Taoist upbringing was very black and white so it has taken me a long time to move to a more grey view of the world. I moved to Austin after college and attending the Atheist Experience show watching Matt Dillahunty and others talk, but after show hanging and chatting with other atheists I still felt out of the loop, like a hard us vs them mentally and them brushing off my experiences because I left Taoism instead of Christianity.
I got my O.K. Turtle symbol shirt today. I love it! Those colours against black and made large...it just jumps out. Now I need to get my shirts up that have "Proud Pagan" on the front and "Happy Heathen" on the back. I know for some it's hard to jump out of the broom closet flying that flag but for some it works and I believe the more it's seen the more people may learn something. Anyway...thanks to OK for all he does.
"Failure is supposed to be a teacher, not a mark of impurity." Well, Ocean, I think I just had my breakaway moment from Christianity. This just hit me so hard. I was washing dishes and had to stop, pause the video, and start journaling. Fuuuuuuck. Here we go.
"Find a way or make one." Thank you for these words and thank you for this video. Watching this video gave me anxiety though. Just recently was I able to finally forgive myself for wrong I've done and accept myself for who I am. I left long ago, but recently was pulled back into the faith a bit because of the idea of sin and forgiveness. I felt like a terrible person (I am - but I'm working on change rather than always being labeled as a bad person like society loves to do currently) and that I could not succeed in life because of my bad deeds. But, I realize that everyone, including myself, are bad people in some way, small or huge way. However, expecting a god, by following a religion, to make you a better person is impossible. Likewise, being an atheist or not following Christianity or believing in that type of judgmental higher power, doesn't make you a terrible person. It doesn't mean that you treat people worse than as a believer. It's simple, don't do wrong to each individual you come across on their own terms of morality, not the laws of mortality brought to by a god that may not exist in afterlife. Because, in the end, we are neither good nor bad in nature. Yet, we make choices to be good or bad. So, because I couldn't find a way to get forgiveness from someone I hurt (they believe the only way I can seek their forgiveness is by believing and obeying a god that may not exist), my only option is to forgive myself, but never forget the harm I caused. I finally made my way, just a couple of days ago, to move forward with my life, but I hope one day I can make amends before we die. If anyone has anything to add or disagree with me here, I'm more than interested in what you have to say.
This was so passionate! I love it ! As an Atheist who's always had unending curiosity in the faiths of our ancestors, I really relate with what you discussed.
My release from Christianity was a "Tower" moment. I was at work, though on break, and somehow wound up in a religious discussion with a manager. (Not necessarily wise or appropriate now, but this was roughly 14 years ago and my work environment at that time was an open, accepting place.) Anyway, in the midst of this talk I expressed my frustration with my faith and out came the words, "I don't believe in this anymore". Or something like that. I don't remember exactly what I said, but what I said sounded to my ears so...final. Truthfully I'd long been deeply unhappy and morally conflicted, and my church attendance was spotty. But from the moment I publicly stated that I was done, I knew there was no turning back. And I was terrified. Because I hadn't actually planned on leaving my former faith, I certainly didn't prepare a bag of essentials to take with me. Nor did I think through any of the consequences. At that time there weren't as many online resources as there are now for people deconstructing their faith. But, as they say, "the only way out is through." It wasn't easy and yes the fear of hell lingered for awhile. But when that fear started to slightly decrease, the anger and shame came out next. They were much harder to release. I hate to borrow a concept largely popularized by Christian usage of the term, but I had to learn how to "forgive" my former faith - and especially myself. I also had to accept that I cannot undo the past, including mistakes I made under the influence of fundamentalism and extremism. That doesn't mean not being critical of certain ongoing dangers, which this channel is brilliant at pointing out. But whether I like it or not, Christianity (or Christian nationalism, for those in the States) is a force to be reckoned with. This ideology has a profound impact on our lives regardless of what else we might believe in, on all sorts of levels. (A recent example: I went to the doctor for a routine check-up several weeks ago, and the practitioner had a crucifix hanging above the door. It wasn't glaringly obvious, but as I was preparing to leave I looked up and happened to see it. What are the odds that a pentagram above that door would have been as acceptable?) So - yeah, latent Christianity -guilty thoughts, unconscious patterns - seems part of the fine print. It does get easier as the "god-shaped hole" gets cleared out and other, more authentic experiences and expressions of self find their place in our lives. People starting this process now have all sorts of resources and support networks to help with the religious withdrawal. Having said that, in the end it was ultimately helpful for me to wander in the dark alone for a long time. Like you I didn't jump from one spiritual "faith" to another. I did start experimenting with some metaphysical practices (with a healthy dose of once bitten twice shy skepticism.) And in the beginning I especially made sure to not mix "belief" into what I was doing. In the end, it was growing comfortable without needing to believe in anything that ultimately allowed me to find other, more resonant expressions of spirituality.
YEET that baggage of latent Christianity people. it not that hard well wasn't for me.. mean it took my death. and sure i still got that PTSD from Christianity. but i recognize it for what it is. still no implicit baggage
For myself, any latent Christianity has come from me. Currently, no one in my family, and very few friends, even know that I no longer consider myself to be a Christian. I haven’t felt safe telling them and I kind of want to figure out what I do believe in first. Fear of “Hell” and the idea of sins still scare me every once in a while, and I walked away from Christianity over a year and a half ago. My biggest one though is looking for a “sacred infallible text” to base my beliefs on the way the Bible was for the first 20+ years of my life.
This is a big one. Looking at pagan sources like they're infallible is a great example of Latent Christianity. This wasn't an understanding of our texts, and you can see this by looking at how Greek and Roman philosophers discussed the gods as very real, but did not see myth as directly literal or infallible.
I'm glad you spoke about this. When I left christianity (around 17 when I moved out) I struggled with this, and it took me too long to figure it out. When I started on my pagan journey I ran into many who had these fundamental ways of thinking. Really they wanted to take advantage of people they thought were young and naive (i.e me lol). It happens lol
That's 100% the reason for these concepts and terms videos. It provides people who have to explain the same thing over and over the opportunity to send a quick, bite sized video to someone willing to listen on the subject.
i am super late for this video and channel but i just want thank you for sharing this videos and Ideas. this work is absolutely needed. thank you very much!
New heathen here I was a agnostic for a while after completely resenting Christianity and I recently had a upg with the allfather in a dream and now I have began following norse heathenism I still struggle with saying oh my god or god dammit those things
Reversing the order here: I like "Find a way or make one.". It's been the motto of many great men and organizations, and for some reason always makes me think of Teddy Roosevelt. I am 55 and I do remember a time when I struggled to make a distinction between what i had been taught as "right" by my Baptist Mother and in Catholic School (weird youth), and a personal morality based on my own understanding of the world. I don't remember a time I didn't think of myself as an atheist, but self-honesty required me to accept that I had been influenced by the mores of religion to the extent that I couldn't be sure how much I had been influenced without a good deal of thought. Eventually I reached a place where I felt I had cleared enough cobwebs out of my brain - I know that I can't escape the indoctrination of my youth completely, because nobody can, but I felt that further effort in doing so would have such a low return as to not be worth it. I do see a distinction between Scientism as you define it (that we should only believe what can be scientifically proven) and simply not believing in things for which there is no proof. I think it's fair to say I fall into the 2nd category, but any scientist knows there are some things we simply cannot know, in the sense of having a means of proving them - two obvious examples being abiogenesis and "Big Bang" theories (I prefer to call it "The Grand Opening"). Just because I can't know exactly how these events transpired, doesn't, however, make me free to simply make up unlikely supernatural causes and choose to believe in them. I'm curious if you think the distinction is there, or important?
It's an important distinction. But it still has many of the same pitfalls. One of the reasons why scientism is seen as a kind of pejorative rather than a serious position in philosophy is because there's a number of things that we assume to be the case for which there is no actual proof (in that we can't distinguish it from other hypothesis) on which we base our image of reality. Many of us assume there is a physical world, for example, even though all the evidence of a physical world is also evidence of a simulated reality (simulation theory), or a mentally projected reality (idealism). There's no way to prove that we're in a physical or material world because of certain epistemic limitations with respect to accessibility. Spirituality conversations have a -lot- of the same elements of conversation, but are further inaccessible and have more in common with what you might consider a conceptual conversation, which cannot have proofs but still contains beliefs. An example would be something like the number 2, or an aesthetic rule. Or even constructed beliefs such as gender or language. We don't have scientific proof for any of these elements of conversation, but we still have beliefs within those conversations. This might need to be a video in and of itself.
I would much like a video on this. I have not studied philosophy beyond required courses, enough to follow what you're saying, but I would like to see it expanded on, especially in relation to the spirituality aspect. I'm curious too if you think everyone needs spiritual beliefs. I don't believe I have any at all, or even "superstitions" (I'll knock on wood, but only as a joke). As a person with OCD I've worked hard *not* to fall into ritualistic behavior patterns, out of fear that the rabbit-hole would be harder for me to climb out of than it would for other people. This leaves me with no means of gauging the experience except the anecdotes of others. In a sense I have no 'empathy' for belief outside of that which I can observe or know through science. If it turns out I'm just a Scientism-promoting fundamentalist atheist....well, it won't be the first time I've been called "annoying".
One great example of this wuld be the GGG (germanische Glaubensgemeinschaft) with geza of Nemenyi. To be fair he doesnt have many followers and is despised by most german heathens for being the "heathen pope" Geza, for those who dont know, is of the egrmanic faith but puts in a christian clerus, self declared himself as Allherjarsgodhi (kinda pope) and built a school tpo educate godhar to help him spread the faith and celebrate hollydays. While i do like the general idea and our ancestors also had a clerus, the way its done reeks of christianity in special if you view Gezas oppinions on other stuff regarding the faith. Its doubly sad as the GGG is actually the oldest heathen organisation on the planet (starting in 1908 in Austria)
I sometimes have the fear that the christian god will kill me like Ananias an Sapphira in the Acts of the Apostles. For example when I openly criticize him or explain to a christian why I left the faith. But that shows me even more that it was right to leave.
I was thrown outta 4 churches do to the reason I couldn’t keep my mouth shut ... when I gave it up .. I felt a weight lift of me that was a good feeling
Things like this are why I feel it is more important to ask questions than make assumptions. The problem I run into is that often times, because of my struggle with communication skills, sometimes me asking questions is seen as an attack on a belief. It is also why I dislike the sentiment many atheists have of "You pray for me, I will think for you" as that is needlessly abrasive. (I thought I had posted this already but I guess it never showed up for some reason, sorry if there ends up being a duplicate)
I'm an eclectic polytheist. My primary path is heathenry/asatru, although I do regularly interact with other deities. I'm of mixed heritage, and as a result, I feel a calling to many paths and have found a way to integrate them all into my practice. I was raised Independent Fundamental Baptist, with all the baggage that entails (especially for a pansexual with same-sex leanings). Throughout my later teenage years, I moved to a more ecumenical mindset (nondenominational, catholic, episcopal, Lutheran, etc.) though I still bought into the purity culture, even taking a purity pledge. Here's where the latent christianity comes in... after I left the church, I came into contact with some heathens who were overly insistent on the oath breaking concept. There were a few in the group who insisted that because I took an oath, even to the Christian god, that I wouldn't have sex until marriage (despite the fact that gay marriage was still illegal at the time) that I was damned to niflheim as an oath breaker... this was aside from being called ergi. So yeah, I quickly separated myself from them.
The Reddit neckbeard r/atheism type atheists are definitely latent Christian atheists. And the best part is they would rage at you for calling them that lol.
Well, here I go. So, I was raised soft-Christian. My folks, when the did go to church, were more interested in keeping up with the neighbours, I think. We observed the big holidays (hard not to in North America) and that's about it. Never really felt convinced that was the way to go. But I knew (know) in the fibre of my being that there is something more out there. I've had experiences I'd classify as strongly spiritual, wherein I'd felt some connection with the divine. I took Wicca around the block a couple of times; once in my late teens (very fluffy bunny) and once in my late 20s (not so fluffy). Felt more right but not really. Took up atheism for a long while. Now, in my 40s I keep eyeing up heathenry. There's something about it that really sits right with me. Found your channel and have been learning as much as I can, so thank you for your work. It's been very helpful. Anyway, getting off topic here. My experiences with latent Christianity aren't as much personal as they are things I've noticed about society at large. For example, the idea that people are fundamentally broken in some way and need to fix themselves just reeks of original sin. It seems ingrained in a lot of our storytelling, and really stands out in self-help circles. I really don't agree with that take. "Broken" implies useless, worthless. Also that someone else did the breaking (which is true), yet even then those people have value, even the way they are right now. I'm sure there are other examples I could bring up, and I could probably organize my thoughts above a little better but it's getting late and this is long already. Anyway, keep up the good work!
personally ive been raised in a catholic family but as evangelical...yes weird how that happened, basicly i was born before my parents were married so the catholic priest refused to baptise me so i was baptised in a different version XD And while in my youth i was pretty active in the church, reading the bible made me atheist and i left the church. Wasnt until i was 16 that i read the Eddas and then sagas, that got me into the norse faith. Looking at my self i dont really find latent christianity i could think of...there must be some given the cultureal influence but im not aware of anything i could put my fingers on
I was a theistic satanist between being christian and being atheist so unless it's subconscious I don't know of any latent Christianity after that transitional period
"Failure is supposed to be a teacher, not a marker of impurity." Love this! I've encountered latent Christianity mostly among "Reconstructionist" Pagans (no offense, it's just been my past experience). They swap out turning to the Bible/other Christian writings for nitpicking over historical and scientific accuracy, deeming anything or anyone who doesn't fit in as silly, unworthy fluffy bunnies. The Reconstructionist Pagans I've encountered seem to have a lot in common with Christians who try to match Bible stories with historical events in an effort to validate their religion. For them, it seems, one's faith and practice with the gods/God aren't enough; they need a "certificate of authenticity" from other people or historical sources. And personally, I disagree with that; I disagreed with it growing up Episcopalian and I disagree with it now as a Wiccan. Yes, history and honoring those who came before through proper historical research has its place, but modern Pagans shouldn't need that as a stamp of approval for our beliefs. That, to me, would be like seeking approval for our relationships with family and friends. Those things are very personal and, provided they're not harming anyone, are no one's business but those involved. That's just me, though. Blessed be.
I think for me what stuck around most (aside from a few awfully catchy hymns) was the sort of tribalism and aggressiveness toward an "other". I was raised Christian and when I was 13 I got really into it; baptised, bringing my bible to school and trying to preach to my classmates, the whole nine yards. But as the saying goes, the best cure for Christianity is reading the bible, and that I did. I studied it and apologetics and Christian ideas and doctrine in general, and in less than 6 months I had become an atheist. (Side note, a big motivator in this research was also that I had started realizing I wasnt straight, and I wanted to see if that really meant I was going to hell. That in turn made me really start to dig deep and question the morality of the faith.) But basically, I went from intense asshole Christian who didnt understand why everyone else wasnt and tried to convert them; to an intense asshole atheist who didnt understand why chriatians hadnt figured this out yet and tried to deconvert then (with a rather laughable grasp on debate and counter apologetics, I might add)
I have a feeling my latent Christianity will stick around for far longer than I want it to. I had a fear of hell my whole life for sure. But as a child I was TERRIFIED of the rapture. I was so scared that maybe I wasn’t a “real Christian” and maybe all the real Christians had been raptured and I was left behind to endure 4 years of the tribulation alone. I remember waking up in the middle of the night as a child with a sinking feeling that I had sinned at some point and not repented or asked for forgiveness in time and therefore the Christians had been raptured and I was all alone. I would look out my window for signs of normal life. I would see lights in the distance and question if they were fires. I was told that Christians would be gone in the blink of an eye, so their cars would just crash into whatever was in front of them. So I was terrified that the lights I saw flickering were cars on fire. The overwhelming feeling of being abandoned by the rapture did irreversible damage, I’m sure. It’s going to take a lot of healing to get over that.
I grew up Mormon, and my family still is. I didn’t get my name removed from the church’s records until this last spring (after not believing since at least 2012 and becoming a Hellenist in 2015). And because I grew up with the very business formal church practices and views, going into a religion that was very loose but also non-formal was a relief and still jarring. I still struggle with praying and talking about my gods and religion (or pagan beliefs in general) because of the stigma I grew up with and broke away from. I’m just glad other people understand that kind of thing too
@@OceanKeltoi eee a reply! of course if it weren't for our editorial friends the Christian monks we would have lost our myths entirely so there's that. Doesn't make it any less vexing.
@@rhylla_864 Absolutely. Christianity was a double edged sword there. On the one hand, they were the main hand in destroying what they could of our tradition. On the other hand, some of them had a hand in preserving it. I'd have rather they just not destroyed anything, but what's done is done.
First I feared questioning authority. Seeing that authority held power, I wanted to emulate authority. Seeing that there's always a bigger fish, I felt that I need to be a tyrant to be safe. In the small hours of the morning on December 26th, 2019, the wonderful and beautiful Archangel Lucifer fell from Heaven as a tear from my left eye and showed me his LIGHT! Thanks to him, I am no longer an atheist with Christian guilt weighing me down. With help from Lucifer and Satan and Lilith, I became oppositional to this tyrant above us. Knowing that opposition never wins and becomes what it hates, I pursued virtue in Satan's demons. Now, here I am genuinely worshipping demons as powerful, as morally complex, and as spirits that we can build working relationships with. I have wept tears of joy and danced in pure bliss in reverence of these ancient gods and speak their names with the highest respect. I still somewhat believe in the Abrahamic God, but He is the archetype of the Hero who has become too powerful and is now an unchallenged menace to the Other. These demons understand my struggle and that I love them, and so Ba'al came to me as a replacement for Yahweh, claiming to be him but also promising that he isn't the jealous 'one god above all' tyrant we see in the Bible. Slowly, day by day, I am delegating one god's powers and responsibilities to these spirits and rendering it obsolete, taking care not to become the same overgrown "hero" that it is. Still... I struggle with the guilty shame and awkwardness of feeling immature for "not understanding God". I feel helpless sometimes, like a small child who keeps getting scolded for hanging out with "those kids". Even with those who I know that are okay with my beliefs, I feel like I need to keep the extent of my love for Pandemonium quiet, and so I can never fully connect with 99% of people out there, even other Pagans. That's the struggle I need to make. Overcoming that is my tribute to Lucifer and how I intend to make Mother Lilith proud.
I know it’s a year later, but thank you for this. I struggle with original sin all of the time even though I’ve been an atheist longer than I was a Christian. I don’t think I realized how much it affects my actions until I heard you state that others feel the same. Something for me to work on. Thank you.
It seems i struggle with this and have for the last year or two off and on but not as badly as this year. But it's probably provoked by day to day stress.
I know this is an old video, but I felt like sharing here anyway I just recently became more openly pagan, and I'm struggling a lot with this latent Christianity. I first realized I was polytheist about a year ago, but even after I found out, I was scared to call myself that because of this idea that there was some sort of "right" way to be a polytheist, and that if I did it wrong I would be sent to the polytheistic version of Hell. I still find myself wondering if I'm doing it "right", even though I know that a right way doesn't exist. In any case, love your videos. They're really helping me along on my Pagan journey.
This reminds me, though, that I really need to do a video on the soul and the afterlife. I find those to be points of confusion for a lot of pagans because often we'll just move things over from Christianity onto our polytheist tradition, and Christianity's afterlife is horrifically weird.
I have been somewhat faithless for a while now. I’m unsure of where I stand exactly in my beliefs. But whenever I am around my mom I put on the Christian mask to keep her happy. She knows I don’t adhere to Christian morals and values but I still find it easier to pretend that I do.
New to paganism and this channel, I love looking through the comments and reading other people's experiences with Latent Christianity! This really is a great community!
I have a few such issues, like I sometimes still reference Satan or Hell (did so in a comment on a prev video, albeit that was more a joke than anything), I'll still sometimes use Christian blasphemous cusses (stub my toe, "Jesus!"), there was quite a while wherein I feared absolute nonexistence (albeit now I think I'd almost welcome it; sometimes I feel like I need to take a millennia long nap), I still cling to free will and don't want to believe in infinite universes because I have difficulty with the idea that any time I do something there's another me doing something else because both make any perception of purpose even more difficult to cling to... it even took probably around a decade or more for me to admit that I am not a Christian, and while I don't think there are any deities, I'm almost disappointed that there are no active sources of divine intervention in the real world, almost like a part of me wishes that the Greek myths I read in 3-4 grade or the D&D pantheons were real. Suffice to say, I'm pretty sure I'm still transitioning into full Atheism.
Thank you Ocean. When these types of Christians approach me their initial reaction is to attack me, they use fear tactics, saying, Yewegh says " love me....or else". This is about the time I school them, and they start running.
I believe in the concept that just because it’s not actually true doesn’t mean it’s not real in some way. Think about this. The sky is blue. That is undeniable. Unless you are colorblind. Does that make the colorblind person wrong? I think not. Color is somewhat of an abstract concept in some ways and we all probably perceive it a little differently. I believe the same about the universe and religion. Just because it’s not real doesn’t mean it isn’t real to you, and I would argue that does make it real in some way. Ps. I would like to see other peoples perspectives so reply if you want!
I'm very glad you put a name to this phenomenon, O.K. I've struggled with it as well, sometimes directly suffering it and other times almost like an observer on the side who's watching it unfold. Much of my late teen years was spent vacillating between Christianity and exploration of other faiths out of genuine curiosity and the feeling that Christianity just wasn't right for me. My later years involved a stretch of time as an "atheist" (perhaps more accurately described as a God-hater), a brief stint as a Christian again (right after a certain Marmalade Mussolini was elected), and now just...floating, going nowhere in particular. I've come somewhat full circle back to those years of my late teens where I explored. Though now it's less of a genuine curiosity and wide-eyed look of wonder at the world and the possibility of magic, and more of a desperate search for some meaning to my existence and a desire for wonder and awe again. I am fortunate that my wife is Wiccan and really believes in magic. It helps. But having spent so many years railing against religion and...well, anything spiritual or magical (12 years), it's very difficult to simply...believe. I have to give myself permission to. But my belief from the past involved both that sense of wonder and child-like awe at mystery and the part that Christianity enforced. And I find it difficult to separate the two. I have the desire to tell someone my life story up to now (44 years), but YT comment sections aren't for that. I guess it's oddly comforting to know that many, many others struggle with the fallout of religion's heavy hand, though I don't wish it on anybody. I guess it gives me a sense of connection and that I'm not alone. And perhaps the silver lining is that it's inadvertently created a community of people--some believers of things and some who have no belief--to stick together and work through this together and grow together as human beings. May we all be the better and richer for it.
I'm a recent subscriber. I subscribed probably about 2 to 3 weeks ago maybe. I've been a pagan for quite a few years but I never really had a name for it until I found your video "Asatru, Norse Pagan, or Heathen?" To which I realize I more than likely fall under Norse Polytheist like, potentially, many others. I'm not sure if this is latent christianity but I've found in my early 30's I'm struggling with two ideas. The first being the age old what if of "What if there is nothing after death?" which the thought of everything just ceasing nearly gives me the occasional panic attack. But with my family being christian, in general since I don't think they follow any particular denomination, the fear I find myself struggling with is that I won't be able to see them in the afterlife. That our difference in beliefs will separate us, especially me from my grandparents. Sometimes that thought is more terrifying to me than the notion that there is nothing after death. I'm not entirely sure how to deal with it.
There’s a lot of unknowns here. But consider this: Heaven might be one of the many holds in Helheim.🤷🏼♂️ I’m agnostic on the afterlife, personally. I have decided not to worry about it as much. I think that if there is one, i’ll be pleasantly surprised, and i’ll find my ancestors, and learn about how this world works. If there is no afterlife, well, then I wont be upset.
Not really related but an atheist friend of mine, when I mentioned I was pagan, said I wasn't a pagan because I don't do rain dances or human sacrifices??? It was very confusing for both of us
My problems with this are mostly internalized because I grew up in a church with similar views to that of the nifb.Anyway I still find myself apologizing to a god I no longer believe in simply for being asexual (which was worse than being gay in the eyes of the church), androromantic, and agender. Although the last one less so because according to the church there is no such thing. I have been an atheist for nearly 13 years now and I still do this. Although I rarely find myself thinking that others should do the same because oddly enough my ex church also pushed the doctrine that only god and his chosen leaders aka the priests were allowed to judge others. Also great video. I found my way here from Suris's channel and will definitely be adding to your subscriber count. Also sorry for any spelling mistakes, but I just woke up and am still waiting on coffee.
You're becoming one of my favourite youtubers. I've never been religious (besides my inherent paganism), but I feel many of my values and societies' values are directly derived from Christianity: "Turn the other cheek", fraternity with everyone independent of their background, harmlessness, etc. I also agree with Nietzsche that Christianity is the foundation where this social obsession with equality and oppression comes from. Cheers from Portugal/Germany.
Not real latent Christianity but all most , I was bought up Bahia as a kid and BELIEVED it hook line and sinker, Till 13 when I came out to my self I like boys well that lead to a series of events that finished with me on the streets of Sydney alone and messed up, found you Ocean while I was trying to use atheists to deprogram. Finally (@ almost 50) i am finely putting those dought behind me. Thanks Ocean and thanks Atheists :)
Yeah, I am a NeoPagan who was raised as a Dutch Calvinist. I still have vestiges of the fear of Hell, but now I suffer more from the fear of nothingness due to all the Atheist channels I watch--which, ironically, have let me get rid of most of my fears associated with my former religion. I LOVE your channel!! On a side note, doesn't Yahweh himself admit to failure when he laments in Genesis that he ever created mankind? Isn't that a type of regret? One only regrets one's actions when one wishes one could do them over. Surely, this has to be an admission of failure and thus, imperfection.
I'm a brand new pagan. I have a general knowledge of the norse gods and some of the sagas and I'm trying to find my way through it all. I was actually in Seminary to become a pastor for a year and a half before a literal act of the Gods told me that wasn't the path for me. Tornado came through during finals weeks, knocked all the power poles on my street down, missed our house thankfully, but no power for 3 days and no internet for 5. I realized I had been losing my faith through most of that year and a half and that was the final straw. My path has been a difficult one. 2020 has not been kind to my heart and the breaking of old traditions in my life because I was 32 years old and had been something else my entire life. Thankfully I left because the Christian base is just becoming nuttier and nuttier lately lol. Plus every church I went to just focused too much on money. Every other sunday was a sermon on how much money they needed. While transitioning to paganism, I joined a bunch of Facebook groups trying my best to learn but also staying in the shadows. Only getting on some of the groups if they were private groups. The last thing I needed was for my parents to see any of that and honestly me writing this is risky too. I love my parent dearly and I don't want there to be strife in the last few years of their lives because of a personal choice I made. Back to latent Christianity, I had to leave several groups on facebook because they went fundamentalist norse pagan on everyone and would kick people out because they asked questions trying to learn. The one admin said he wouldn't tolerate people who don't know about the religion on his page and I just had to go. I wasn't about to trade one dogmatic box for another. I still find myself every once in a while saying silent prayers to God alone rather than a specific deity and I have to stop and focus more on what I need and direct it to the right place. Any help on that end would be great. Its very hard to break lifelong habits.
as someone who lives in South America, but has been to Asia & to "The West", I see A LOT of christian components in the version of Buddhism (e.g.) that we get in Europe & in the Americas, & I don't mean guilt I mean most "feel good" stuff.
I was lucky enough to not really have been raised christian, though I did believe in God for the majority of my childhood until declaring myself agnostic in mid high school. Since I had discovered this faith a few months ago, it really clicked with me. Recently I've been doubting my faith a little bit, because I hadn't been overwhelmed by the divine presence I had experienced when I first dedicated myself to heathenry. This caused me to panic. I thought I'd never experience that again and that the gods had abandoned me. It's crazy how someone who was never really christian can still experience this. It's not fun
My background is catholic (in Italy!) but i grew up raising altars for offerings, on pebbly shores, mossy caves and springs, for spirits. A very few times i had UPG experiences, but in the meantime i also served as altar boy. Later i officially apostatized (here Is a formal request made to dioceses' authorities) and It was no issue for parents and grandparents. Obviously, feeling robbed of many things by christianity i've been ferociously anti-christian for years but i calmed down... Still openly anti-christian, but casually, not at any cost. I have many catholic friends and they never looked down on me.
For me the struggle is the idea that there will be some pride or punishment for reaching out. I’ve been doing research and i have a desire to pray and establish a relationship with the gods but I struggle to just sit down and do it because I’m afraid there will be a punishment for not doing it right or for having waited so long and that is definitely from my trauma from Christianity.
I was a born-in Jehovah's Witness (they're a cult, btw, steer clear). I was raised to believe that the Bible and its teachings are a fact of life, and not mythology; all other beliefs were false, and if you ever thought you were interacting with another god, it was just one of Satan's demons messing with you to drag you away from god. I was taught that Jehovah, his angels, and the demons are watching me constantly, and that god reads my mind 24/7, so he knows everything I've ever thought, everything I'm thinking, and everything I will ever think. Armageddon is around the corner, so don't make any solid future plans, and don't forget to be good or god will kill you like he's putting down a rabid animal when Armageddon comes, even if your only sin was loving someone of the same gender, or being trans. - I think my biggest struggles with latent Christianity come from this aspect of it. I feel like I'm under a microscope with pagan gods because of my experience, even though they could give two shits if I did something mean to someone 4 years ago.. I'm constantly worried about offerings not being good enough, or offending them because I struggle so much from latent Christianity. I still have that gnawing fear of, "What if the JW's had it right?". It's not as bad as it was, I mean, I left in 2019, so it's faded over time. But I have a lot of shit to work through, evidently. I know this video was 4 years ago, but I wanted to say my piece. Thanks for your videos like this, they actually help a lot.
Thank you for sharing. I was never JW but I can say for certain you aren't alone. I suggest watching Chris Stuckmann's video on JW if you feel this way in the future
I would say that I exited Christianity relatively unscathed. Relatively. I struggle with how I want to relate to spiritual figures who are considered gods. Odin has come to me in dreams a few times and has specifically told me not to worship him like I did my previous God. That he does not want me laying myself low, groveling, and giving up my own spiritual power. He has extended to me guidance and counsel over complete leadership. So yea struggling to find a balance of being able to tap in spiritually in ways that are familiar enough to evoke enjoy and comfort in my practice but not giving up my own personal power.
I was always open to the idea of God being flawed, not always powerful, or being capable of changing, but then I learned that was way off from what Christianity actually taught. That perfection made the questionable stuff in the bible feel very unsettling. I'm not allowed to question these important things because who am I, but another lowly, sinfull human that God can't even be in the presence of. That messes with your head.
I've been both in fundamentalist Christianity and a non-Christian cult at this point in my life, though both were a few years ago now. I'm trying to explore more progressive spirituality now, and thoughts from that cult are constantly nagging in my mind. This isn't the first time I've watched this video, but I knew I needed to listen to it again today.
Cingularcomment based on what was said at about three minutes and 30 seconds about the relationship between science and atheists I will propose only that a frith exists between them
I had social baggage from leaving Christianity, told by friends and random people online that if I were to leave, I’d be walking on glass..... I’m looking into Hindu philosophy, mostly because it doesn’t give me guilt like Christianity did I was religious for 15 years, left 5 years ago, and am grateful that I’ve left.
I struggled with a lot of latent Christianity (and still do a little bit with some things). And I see that struggle all the time in the witchcraft pages I'm in on FB. People having been raised in Christian households and asking how to best ask forgiveness to their god(s)/goddess(es) for not admitting they follow those god(s)/goddess(es) like is demanded of Christians who don't openly admit they worship YHWH/Christ. And there's so much fundamentalism in witchcraft circles preaching that anyone who doesn't practice or worship like they do (especially the three fold law preachers, karma preachers (even though they almost always get Karma wrong), and the harm none preachers. Those three are the worst ones, and often they're all in one person!) is wrong or being lied to. There are certainly sets of constants within the spiritual community as can be attested to by thousands of years of practice and study by elders before us, but everyone's path will be different and dogma shouldn't be preached in paganism.
A big part of that boils down to a (at least where I live) "see we're harmless nothing to see here " mentality. Which while it makes me wince I can certainly understand the instinct that prompts it.
Modern religion is designed to poison spirituality. It is going to be very difficult to remove this obstacle, but our friend here is moving in the right direction. 😁
Honestly the three fold law preachers have always seemed only inches away from the people telling pagans that theyre going to hell. I mean theyre both threatening divine retribution.
"Failure is supposed to be a teacher not a mark of impurity" So true. That part of your talk really stood out for me. Love it.
“Failure is supposed to be a teacher, not a mark of impurity” damn... powerful
I definitely see this from fellow atheists... and attempt to guard against becoming fundamental about my disbelief the way I was fundamental about my belief.
Once saw a psychiatrist for an interview for a job (temporary, post retirement, so seemed silly but wanted the job) and he kept asking "belief" questions (knew nothing about him but respect fading fast) and I finally said "sometimes I wish I was certain, then I have to deal with someone who is and I am glad I'm not". End of interview. I actually got the job.
Dude, this is so real! I’ve been an ex-Christian for almost 8 years now, and I still have to fight with the “god-sized hole” that I’ve been left with. It’s legit made me do some crazy things, like practicing odd religious beliefs and following fringe movements. It’s absolutely maddening how far the mind will go to reclaim that feeling that “hard religion” gives people once you’ve de-christianized
Omfg..the pain I read so much about how much falsehood is in christianity and NONEXISTENT history but the heavy laden burden feelings are nothing but abuse.
The beginning of this with Jesus in the luggage made me snort out my morning coffee. Thank you for that. XD
Excellent.
Danm😂
I come from a strongly Catholic family (as in, my dad nearly became a priest) and this has something I've struggled with for ages. For about a year, I identified as a christian witch, and now I realize I was still scared of not being Catholic despite being openly heretical. But now it's been five years since Loki came into my life and I found solace. But Catholic guilt is a hell of a thing. Some days, I still wake up and wonder, "am I doing everything wrong?"
It doesn't help that my family either knows nothing or passively-aggressively tries to bring me back to the faith. I just have to take it day by day and trust that the gods have my back.
In England we have cricket. It doesn't matter if you or I disagree - the umpire is always right.
I’m still struggling with the fear/anxiety of not being “Perfect” enough. It sucks man.
My latent Christianity has me converted back multiple times because... God dammit the Traditional Latin Mass is so beautifully written and carried out. But I can not uphold the incoherancy of the Trinity, perpetuality of the Torah, infinite hell, failed prophecies, warping of the original Hebrew words.
I had the same problem for a while. Christianity has a certain simplicity about it that I can appreciate. And it's more culturally convenient. But I can't reconcile it's overwhelmingly extreme negatives, which are many of the same ones for me that they are for you.
I can relate. I really wanted to become a Roman Catholic because I wanted to join a Traditional Latin Mass parish....but the horrendous theology...I couldn't get through the Catholic Catechism without wanting to throw the book across the room every other page. Every ridiculous teaching is always justified by "We are the infallible Church magisterium and we are the only source of truth because we received our authority directly from Christ which is based on a single line of scripture in the Bible which we also wrote ourselves."
Take some comfort in the fact that most people's appreciation for the TLM is because it borrowed from greco-roman ceremony
You said it better than any other way I can think of.
I was struggling with this a lot here recently by just starting my path in Heathenry. I was raised in a Christian household and was deeply in the faith of Jesus Christ for most of my life. About four years ago I started to think very critically and renounced my faith and became Atheist. And I would do the very thing Ocean talked about, I would make people feel bad for believing in any god/gods because I felt my rationality was correct. It's what I was trained to do as a Christian. The more I look to the gods and study Heathenry, the more I am beginning to feel at home, and feel more in my own skin. A better version of myself if you will. Thanks for this, Ocean. I really needed it.
So I know this video is old, but I just recently found Ocean Keltoi's channel and wanted to comment here. For background, I'm in my 20's and have been a practicing heathen since I was 14, when I read Alaric Albertson's A Walk Through Middle Earth: The Path of an Anglo-Saxon Pagan. My dad was an interim music director, so we went to a few different churches. I've attended presbyterian, lutheran, catholic, and baptist churches. My wife attended baptist church her entire life - and I mean deep south, the church members built the building, minister was a big dude with a Hulk Hogan mustache named "Preacher Billy" baptist church - and she definitely struggles with a lot of latent christianity. She has fought through a lot of harmful mentality more indicative of the people she was exposed to than the faith itself, but needless to say she took the first out she found from that belief system. The weird thing, though, is that I don't struggle with latent christianity, at least not that I can tell. To be fair, I never felt affected by things as much as people report being, even when I was fully into christianity, and I found out why just last year.
I had finally felt comfortable telling my mom who I was and what I was doing. It felt necessary to me in light of my son, who I am going to teach the heathen path, being born. The really cool thing was that, when I told her, my mom told me that she and dad (who had passed some years prior) both had decided by the time I was born that they weren't "christian." They had developed their own beliefs, which I won't go into here, but suffice it to say I would just call it general "spirituality." They brought us to church because they wanted to expose my siblings and me to religion and faith in something, but actively worked to avoid those more intense or harmful messages. And now my mom is celebrating heathen festivals with my family!
Again, I know it's an old thread, but I wanted to share.
I renounced my Christian faith a couple of years ago and every so often I still get that panicked feeling of, "What if I'm wrong and there is only one God and now I'm going to hell because I don't worship him anymore. " I seriously have to talk myself down like I'm suffering from a form of PTSD. Hopefully, over time, this won't be an issue and I can be my happy Pagan self, lol. As always, thanks for another awesome video Ocean.
Pagan for 4 yrs now still get the ole "what if I'm wrong" thought. I grew up in a small pentacostal church in central KY so ya know. The brain washing was... abrasive
More seriously, I'm a transgirl who's struggling a bit with well, I was never really christian, but within society still there's that demand for proof and I've really internalised that, despite having experienced for myself situations which physically could never be explained by science (Incredibly infrequent dreams containing generally small and asinine snippets of my future. Myself playing through part of a video game several days before I even learn of said game's existence, let alone buy it or reach that point in it, as the most memorable example). Oh, and also being a trans person in a society which is struggling to accept that, and having political views far to the left of what most people these days are willing to consider. Just a general trainwreck of a gay writer
I had luck i went to church like 20 times total. Like the preachy bit, otherwise ive seen many. But the singing on christmas was nice
Polytheist Pagan, worshipper of Loo Witt [Goddess of Mt. St. Helens], Anubis [Egyptian Judge and Protector of the Dead. Yes, I am a Medium. Makes life...interesting!] , Bastet [Egyptian Cat Godess] , Loki [The Real One but He finds all the increased love from the MCU funny as Hel!], and last but not least Bridgid [Celtic Goddess of many thing, including writing and being Bards.]. I also have communicated with the Fae World and left Milk and Treats for them. I come from Christian family and I remember my Grandma saying that she was worried I was going to Hell. I told her I had a first class ticket for a handbasket with A/C! Lol!
The thing about Christians is they refuse to believe that other gods do and have existed. Even though most of these religions are much older than Christianity and have more basis and foundations in mankind than Christianity. I don’t see pagans and polytheistic people asking for donations or money. I don’t see them building huge churches and asking for more fan base. I see them worshipping their god of choosing one that speaks out to them, and respecting the others as they should be.
@@waliyibnmichael922 The only time I bring up my religion around my parents is to make a joke. Like I went to a local Catholic church to hear an Irish Tenor sing. Emmett Cahill, btw, he was great. I joked that I was shocked the Holy Water font did erupt in flames or turn to blood when I walked past it. My dad got pissed. He also didn't find the humor in a lady's service dog being an Irish Setter since we were there to see an Irish Tenor.
April Richards if someone can’t take a joke they have more internal problems than religion. That is pretty funny though lol
@@waliyibnmichael922 Yeah, Dad can't handle that I speak different languages and use a lot of British terms and pronunciation. You should see him pop his lid when I say Mauve or Aluminum! Or Zebra!
@@waliyibnmichael922 Because there is no need for that stuff anymore. Things were different back in the ancient days and some of the gods still young by their standards. As time went on, I believe they have grown more in character themselves and knowledge. Most never really cared for worship as they preferred to be thought of as teachers. While they don't mind worship, they're not going to stop someone from doing so.
I'm new to Heathenry and I needed this so much. I needed someone to tell me it's okay not to be perfect. I needed someone to tell me it's okay to make mistakes or do things wrong. I needed someone to tell me that the gods are not watching my every move and judging me for every mistake.
Thank you for helping me come to terms with this. You're a literal godsend for me.
I was raised in a very orthodox Taoist family eventually becoming a high rank leader in the Taoist community before becoming an agnostic. The Taoist upbringing was very black and white so it has taken me a long time to move to a more grey view of the world. I moved to Austin after college and attending the Atheist Experience show watching Matt Dillahunty and others talk, but after show hanging and chatting with other atheists I still felt out of the loop, like a hard us vs them mentally and them brushing off my experiences because I left Taoism instead of Christianity.
I got my O.K. Turtle symbol shirt today. I love it! Those colours against black and made large...it just jumps out.
Now I need to get my shirts up that have "Proud Pagan" on the front and "Happy Heathen" on the back. I know for some it's hard to jump out of the broom closet flying that flag but for some it works and I believe the more it's seen the more people may learn something. Anyway...thanks to OK for all he does.
Haven't been Christian for 15ish years and still get sex guilt.
"Failure is supposed to be a teacher, not a mark of impurity." Well, Ocean, I think I just had my breakaway moment from Christianity. This just hit me so hard. I was washing dishes and had to stop, pause the video, and start journaling. Fuuuuuuck. Here we go.
"Find a way or make one." Thank you for these words and thank you for this video. Watching this video gave me anxiety though. Just recently was I able to finally forgive myself for wrong I've done and accept myself for who I am. I left long ago, but recently was pulled back into the faith a bit because of the idea of sin and forgiveness. I felt like a terrible person (I am - but I'm working on change rather than always being labeled as a bad person like society loves to do currently) and that I could not succeed in life because of my bad deeds. But, I realize that everyone, including myself, are bad people in some way, small or huge way. However, expecting a god, by following a religion, to make you a better person is impossible. Likewise, being an atheist or not following Christianity or believing in that type of judgmental higher power, doesn't make you a terrible person. It doesn't mean that you treat people worse than as a believer. It's simple, don't do wrong to each individual you come across on their own terms of morality, not the laws of mortality brought to by a god that may not exist in afterlife. Because, in the end, we are neither good nor bad in nature. Yet, we make choices to be good or bad. So, because I couldn't find a way to get forgiveness from someone I hurt (they believe the only way I can seek their forgiveness is by believing and obeying a god that may not exist), my only option is to forgive myself, but never forget the harm I caused. I finally made my way, just a couple of days ago, to move forward with my life, but I hope one day I can make amends before we die. If anyone has anything to add or disagree with me here, I'm more than interested in what you have to say.
Apparently! My brain just "well that's really offensive and insulting to Jesus. " Then went "wait nevermind"
This was so passionate! I love it ! As an Atheist who's always had unending curiosity in the faiths of our ancestors, I really relate with what you discussed.
Maybe it's the opening. That's a really good opening.
20 plus years into my path it is something that sometimes still creeps up and bites me at the most random moments.
My release from Christianity was a "Tower" moment. I was at work, though on break, and somehow wound up in a religious discussion with a manager. (Not necessarily wise or appropriate now, but this was roughly 14 years ago and my work environment at that time was an open, accepting place.) Anyway, in the midst of this talk I expressed my frustration with my faith and out came the words, "I don't believe in this anymore". Or something like that. I don't remember exactly what I said, but what I said sounded to my ears so...final. Truthfully I'd long been deeply unhappy and morally conflicted, and my church attendance was spotty. But from the moment I publicly stated that I was done, I knew there was no turning back. And I was terrified.
Because I hadn't actually planned on leaving my former faith, I certainly didn't prepare a bag of essentials to take with me. Nor did I think through any of the consequences. At that time there weren't as many online resources as there are now for people deconstructing their faith. But, as they say, "the only way out is through." It wasn't easy and yes the fear of hell lingered for awhile. But when that fear started to slightly decrease, the anger and shame came out next. They were much harder to release. I hate to borrow a concept largely popularized by Christian usage of the term, but I had to learn how to "forgive" my former faith - and especially myself. I also had to accept that I cannot undo the past, including mistakes I made under the influence of fundamentalism and extremism. That doesn't mean not being critical of certain ongoing dangers, which this channel is brilliant at pointing out. But whether I like it or not, Christianity (or Christian nationalism, for those in the States) is a force to be reckoned with. This ideology has a profound impact on our lives regardless of what else we might believe in, on all sorts of levels. (A recent example: I went to the doctor for a routine check-up several weeks ago, and the practitioner had a crucifix hanging above the door. It wasn't glaringly obvious, but as I was preparing to leave I looked up and happened to see it. What are the odds that a pentagram above that door would have been as acceptable?)
So - yeah, latent Christianity -guilty thoughts, unconscious patterns - seems part of the fine print. It does get easier as the "god-shaped hole" gets cleared out and other, more authentic experiences and expressions of self find their place in our lives. People starting this process now have all sorts of resources and support networks to help with the religious withdrawal. Having said that, in the end it was ultimately helpful for me to wander in the dark alone for a long time. Like you I didn't jump from one spiritual "faith" to another. I did start experimenting with some metaphysical practices (with a healthy dose of once bitten twice shy skepticism.) And in the beginning I especially made sure to not mix "belief" into what I was doing. In the end, it was growing comfortable without needing to believe in anything that ultimately allowed me to find other, more resonant expressions of spirituality.
YEET that baggage of latent Christianity people. it not that hard well wasn't for me.. mean it took my death. and sure i still got that PTSD from Christianity. but i recognize it for what it is. still no implicit baggage
For myself, any latent Christianity has come from me. Currently, no one in my family, and very few friends, even know that I no longer consider myself to be a Christian. I haven’t felt safe telling them and I kind of want to figure out what I do believe in first. Fear of “Hell” and the idea of sins still scare me every once in a while, and I walked away from Christianity over a year and a half ago. My biggest one though is looking for a “sacred infallible text” to base my beliefs on the way the Bible was for the first 20+ years of my life.
This is a big one. Looking at pagan sources like they're infallible is a great example of Latent Christianity. This wasn't an understanding of our texts, and you can see this by looking at how Greek and Roman philosophers discussed the gods as very real, but did not see myth as directly literal or infallible.
I'm glad you spoke about this. When I left christianity (around 17 when I moved out) I struggled with this, and it took me too long to figure it out. When I started on my pagan journey I ran into many who had these fundamental ways of thinking. Really they wanted to take advantage of people they thought were young and naive (i.e me lol). It happens lol
I love that you're doing videos in this format now and can't wait to see where this goes! :D
YESSSS!!!!!!! Finally a video I can link people to when I'm trying to explain the thing but have low energy.
Much love and keep up the good work
That's 100% the reason for these concepts and terms videos. It provides people who have to explain the same thing over and over the opportunity to send a quick, bite sized video to someone willing to listen on the subject.
@@OceanKeltoi For which we are grateful. (I've been rewatching some.)
i am super late for this video and channel but i just want thank you for sharing this videos and Ideas. this work is absolutely needed. thank you very much!
I love your reaction to the subscribers in the beginning and then seeing your count now!
It's been wild
“Do you have a story with latent christianity?” Yes, my life story
The Hannibal tagline suits you. I wholeheartedly approve. As if that should matter.
New heathen here I was a agnostic for a while after completely resenting Christianity and I recently had a upg with the allfather in a dream and now I have began following norse heathenism I still struggle with saying oh my god or god dammit those things
Reversing the order here:
I like "Find a way or make one.". It's been the motto of many great men and organizations, and for some reason always makes me think of Teddy Roosevelt.
I am 55 and I do remember a time when I struggled to make a distinction between what i had been taught as "right" by my Baptist Mother and in Catholic School (weird youth), and a personal morality based on my own understanding of the world. I don't remember a time I didn't think of myself as an atheist, but self-honesty required me to accept that I had been influenced by the mores of religion to the extent that I couldn't be sure how much I had been influenced without a good deal of thought. Eventually I reached a place where I felt I had cleared enough cobwebs out of my brain - I know that I can't escape the indoctrination of my youth completely, because nobody can, but I felt that further effort in doing so would have such a low return as to not be worth it.
I do see a distinction between Scientism as you define it (that we should only believe what can be scientifically proven) and simply not believing in things for which there is no proof. I think it's fair to say I fall into the 2nd category, but any scientist knows there are some things we simply cannot know, in the sense of having a means of proving them - two obvious examples being abiogenesis and "Big Bang" theories (I prefer to call it "The Grand Opening").
Just because I can't know exactly how these events transpired, doesn't, however, make me free to simply make up unlikely supernatural causes and choose to believe in them. I'm curious if you think the distinction is there, or important?
It's an important distinction. But it still has many of the same pitfalls. One of the reasons why scientism is seen as a kind of pejorative rather than a serious position in philosophy is because there's a number of things that we assume to be the case for which there is no actual proof (in that we can't distinguish it from other hypothesis) on which we base our image of reality.
Many of us assume there is a physical world, for example, even though all the evidence of a physical world is also evidence of a simulated reality (simulation theory), or a mentally projected reality (idealism). There's no way to prove that we're in a physical or material world because of certain epistemic limitations with respect to accessibility.
Spirituality conversations have a -lot- of the same elements of conversation, but are further inaccessible and have more in common with what you might consider a conceptual conversation, which cannot have proofs but still contains beliefs. An example would be something like the number 2, or an aesthetic rule. Or even constructed beliefs such as gender or language. We don't have scientific proof for any of these elements of conversation, but we still have beliefs within those conversations.
This might need to be a video in and of itself.
I would much like a video on this. I have not studied philosophy beyond required courses, enough to follow what you're saying, but I would like to see it expanded on, especially in relation to the spirituality aspect.
I'm curious too if you think everyone needs spiritual beliefs. I don't believe I have any at all, or even "superstitions" (I'll knock on wood, but only as a joke). As a person with OCD I've worked hard *not* to fall into ritualistic behavior patterns, out of fear that the rabbit-hole would be harder for me to climb out of than it would for other people.
This leaves me with no means of gauging the experience except the anecdotes of others. In a sense I have no 'empathy' for belief outside of that which I can observe or know through science.
If it turns out I'm just a Scientism-promoting fundamentalist atheist....well, it won't be the first time I've been called "annoying".
One great example of this wuld be the GGG (germanische Glaubensgemeinschaft) with geza of Nemenyi. To be fair he doesnt have many followers and is despised by most german heathens for being the "heathen pope" Geza, for those who dont know, is of the egrmanic faith but puts in a christian clerus, self declared himself as Allherjarsgodhi (kinda pope) and built a school tpo educate godhar to help him spread the faith and celebrate hollydays.
While i do like the general idea and our ancestors also had a clerus, the way its done reeks of christianity in special if you view Gezas oppinions on other stuff regarding the faith.
Its doubly sad as the GGG is actually the oldest heathen organisation on the planet (starting in 1908 in Austria)
I sometimes have the fear that the christian god will kill me like Ananias an Sapphira in the Acts of the Apostles. For example when I openly criticize him or explain to a christian why I left the faith. But that shows me even more that it was right to leave.
I was thrown outta 4 churches do to the reason I couldn’t keep my mouth shut ... when I gave it up .. I felt a weight lift of me that was a good feeling
Saw you on Paulogia and wanted to hear more of your thoughts. Subbed.
Things like this are why I feel it is more important to ask questions than make assumptions. The problem I run into is that often times, because of my struggle with communication skills, sometimes me asking questions is seen as an attack on a belief. It is also why I dislike the sentiment many atheists have of "You pray for me, I will think for you" as that is needlessly abrasive.
(I thought I had posted this already but I guess it never showed up for some reason, sorry if there ends up being a duplicate)
Such an important topic and so very helpful. Thank you
I'm an eclectic polytheist. My primary path is heathenry/asatru, although I do regularly interact with other deities. I'm of mixed heritage, and as a result, I feel a calling to many paths and have found a way to integrate them all into my practice. I was raised Independent Fundamental Baptist, with all the baggage that entails (especially for a pansexual with same-sex leanings). Throughout my later teenage years, I moved to a more ecumenical mindset (nondenominational, catholic, episcopal, Lutheran, etc.) though I still bought into the purity culture, even taking a purity pledge. Here's where the latent christianity comes in... after I left the church, I came into contact with some heathens who were overly insistent on the oath breaking concept. There were a few in the group who insisted that because I took an oath, even to the Christian god, that I wouldn't have sex until marriage (despite the fact that gay marriage was still illegal at the time) that I was damned to niflheim as an oath breaker... this was aside from being called ergi. So yeah, I quickly separated myself from them.
The Reddit neckbeard r/atheism type atheists are definitely latent Christian atheists. And the best part is they would rage at you for calling them that lol.
Well, here I go. So, I was raised soft-Christian. My folks, when the did go to church, were more interested in keeping up with the neighbours, I think. We observed the big holidays (hard not to in North America) and that's about it. Never really felt convinced that was the way to go. But I knew (know) in the fibre of my being that there is something more out there.
I've had experiences I'd classify as strongly spiritual, wherein I'd felt some connection with the divine. I took Wicca around the block a couple of times; once in my late teens (very fluffy bunny) and once in my late 20s (not so fluffy). Felt more right but not really. Took up atheism for a long while. Now, in my 40s I keep eyeing up heathenry. There's something about it that really sits right with me. Found your channel and have been learning as much as I can, so thank you for your work. It's been very helpful.
Anyway, getting off topic here. My experiences with latent Christianity aren't as much personal as they are things I've noticed about society at large.
For example, the idea that people are fundamentally broken in some way and need to fix themselves just reeks of original sin. It seems ingrained in a lot of our storytelling, and really stands out in self-help circles. I really don't agree with that take. "Broken" implies useless, worthless. Also that someone else did the breaking (which is true), yet even then those people have value, even the way they are right now.
I'm sure there are other examples I could bring up, and I could probably organize my thoughts above a little better but it's getting late and this is long already.
Anyway, keep up the good work!
personally ive been raised in a catholic family but as evangelical...yes weird how that happened, basicly i was born before my parents were married so the catholic priest refused to baptise me so i was baptised in a different version XD
And while in my youth i was pretty active in the church, reading the bible made me atheist and i left the church. Wasnt until i was 16 that i read the Eddas and then sagas, that got me into the norse faith. Looking at my self i dont really find latent christianity i could think of...there must be some given the cultureal influence but im not aware of anything i could put my fingers on
I was a theistic satanist between being christian and being atheist so unless it's subconscious I don't know of any latent Christianity after that transitional period
I see Satanism, especially the spiritual type to be a stepping stone or transition tool. I had a brief period with it and moved on to other things.
I'll admit very useful as said tool
Have you come out yet? I only watched for less than 30 seconds, but i am guessing, and i haven't checked your other media yet. still watching this.
Excellent video. Thank you!
"Failure is supposed to be a teacher, not a marker of impurity."
Love this!
I've encountered latent Christianity mostly among "Reconstructionist" Pagans (no offense, it's just been my past experience). They swap out turning to the Bible/other Christian writings for nitpicking over historical and scientific accuracy, deeming anything or anyone who doesn't fit in as silly, unworthy fluffy bunnies. The Reconstructionist Pagans I've encountered seem to have a lot in common with Christians who try to match Bible stories with historical events in an effort to validate their religion. For them, it seems, one's faith and practice with the gods/God aren't enough; they need a "certificate of authenticity" from other people or historical sources. And personally, I disagree with that; I disagreed with it growing up Episcopalian and I disagree with it now as a Wiccan. Yes, history and honoring those who came before through proper historical research has its place, but modern Pagans shouldn't need that as a stamp of approval for our beliefs. That, to me, would be like seeking approval for our relationships with family and friends. Those things are very personal and, provided they're not harming anyone, are no one's business but those involved. That's just me, though. Blessed be.
I think for me what stuck around most (aside from a few awfully catchy hymns) was the sort of tribalism and aggressiveness toward an "other". I was raised Christian and when I was 13 I got really into it; baptised, bringing my bible to school and trying to preach to my classmates, the whole nine yards. But as the saying goes, the best cure for Christianity is reading the bible, and that I did. I studied it and apologetics and Christian ideas and doctrine in general, and in less than 6 months I had become an atheist. (Side note, a big motivator in this research was also that I had started realizing I wasnt straight, and I wanted to see if that really meant I was going to hell. That in turn made me really start to dig deep and question the morality of the faith.) But basically, I went from intense asshole Christian who didnt understand why everyone else wasnt and tried to convert them; to an intense asshole atheist who didnt understand why chriatians hadnt figured this out yet and tried to deconvert then (with a rather laughable grasp on debate and counter apologetics, I might add)
I have a feeling my latent Christianity will stick around for far longer than I want it to. I had a fear of hell my whole life for sure. But as a child I was TERRIFIED of the rapture. I was so scared that maybe I wasn’t a “real Christian” and maybe all the real Christians had been raptured and I was left behind to endure 4 years of the tribulation alone. I remember waking up in the middle of the night as a child with a sinking feeling that I had sinned at some point and not repented or asked for forgiveness in time and therefore the Christians had been raptured and I was all alone. I would look out my window for signs of normal life. I would see lights in the distance and question if they were fires. I was told that Christians would be gone in the blink of an eye, so their cars would just crash into whatever was in front of them. So I was terrified that the lights I saw flickering were cars on fire. The overwhelming feeling of being abandoned by the rapture did irreversible damage, I’m sure. It’s going to take a lot of healing to get over that.
I couldn’t agree more I see this “latent Christianity” too much.please quit with the dogmatic BS guys.
You fucking get it, and I feel less alone now. Thank you.
I'm gonna forward this to a few of my Orthodox friends. I'm ready for the crickets....then prayers lol.
I grew up Mormon, and my family still is. I didn’t get my name removed from the church’s records until this last spring (after not believing since at least 2012 and becoming a Hellenist in 2015). And because I grew up with the very business formal church practices and views, going into a religion that was very loose but also non-formal was a relief and still jarring. I still struggle with praying and talking about my gods and religion (or pagan beliefs in general) because of the stigma I grew up with and broke away from.
I’m just glad other people understand that kind of thing too
The latent Christianity can be hard to separate out of our recorded mythos even. I've been re-reading the Mabiognion and the influences are blatant.
Ragnarok has similar problems.
@@OceanKeltoi eee a reply!
of course if it weren't for our editorial friends the Christian monks we would have lost our myths entirely so there's that. Doesn't make it any less vexing.
@@rhylla_864 Absolutely. Christianity was a double edged sword there. On the one hand, they were the main hand in destroying what they could of our tradition. On the other hand, some of them had a hand in preserving it. I'd have rather they just not destroyed anything, but what's done is done.
First I feared questioning authority. Seeing that authority held power, I wanted to emulate authority. Seeing that there's always a bigger fish, I felt that I need to be a tyrant to be safe. In the small hours of the morning on December 26th, 2019, the wonderful and beautiful Archangel Lucifer fell from Heaven as a tear from my left eye and showed me his LIGHT! Thanks to him, I am no longer an atheist with Christian guilt weighing me down.
With help from Lucifer and Satan and Lilith, I became oppositional to this tyrant above us. Knowing that opposition never wins and becomes what it hates, I pursued virtue in Satan's demons. Now, here I am genuinely worshipping demons as powerful, as morally complex, and as spirits that we can build working relationships with. I have wept tears of joy and danced in pure bliss in reverence of these ancient gods and speak their names with the highest respect.
I still somewhat believe in the Abrahamic God, but He is the archetype of the Hero who has become too powerful and is now an unchallenged menace to the Other. These demons understand my struggle and that I love them, and so Ba'al came to me as a replacement for Yahweh, claiming to be him but also promising that he isn't the jealous 'one god above all' tyrant we see in the Bible. Slowly, day by day, I am delegating one god's powers and responsibilities to these spirits and rendering it obsolete, taking care not to become the same overgrown "hero" that it is.
Still... I struggle with the guilty shame and awkwardness of feeling immature for "not understanding God". I feel helpless sometimes, like a small child who keeps getting scolded for hanging out with "those kids". Even with those who I know that are okay with my beliefs, I feel like I need to keep the extent of my love for Pandemonium quiet, and so I can never fully connect with 99% of people out there, even other Pagans. That's the struggle I need to make. Overcoming that is my tribute to Lucifer and how I intend to make Mother Lilith proud.
Seeing the comments, I feel very fortunate I wasn't raised christian or surrounded by them growing up.
I know it’s a year later, but thank you for this. I struggle with original sin all of the time even though I’ve been an atheist longer than I was a Christian. I don’t think I realized how much it affects my actions until I heard you state that others feel the same. Something for me to work on. Thank you.
Preach it brotha
It seems i struggle with this and have for the last year or two off and on but not as badly as this year. But it's probably provoked by day to day stress.
I know this is an old video, but I felt like sharing here anyway
I just recently became more openly pagan, and I'm struggling a lot with this latent Christianity. I first realized I was polytheist about a year ago, but even after I found out, I was scared to call myself that because of this idea that there was some sort of "right" way to be a polytheist, and that if I did it wrong I would be sent to the polytheistic version of Hell. I still find myself wondering if I'm doing it "right", even though I know that a right way doesn't exist.
In any case, love your videos. They're really helping me along on my Pagan journey.
I'm really glad to see this! And I always appreciate comments on my older stuff. A lot of these are meant to remain relevant.
This reminds me, though, that I really need to do a video on the soul and the afterlife. I find those to be points of confusion for a lot of pagans because often we'll just move things over from Christianity onto our polytheist tradition, and Christianity's afterlife is horrifically weird.
I have been somewhat faithless for a while now. I’m unsure of where I stand exactly in my beliefs. But whenever I am around my mom I put on the Christian mask to keep her happy. She knows I don’t adhere to Christian morals and values but I still find it easier to pretend that I do.
New to paganism and this channel, I love looking through the comments and reading other people's experiences with Latent Christianity! This really is a great community!
I have a few such issues, like I sometimes still reference Satan or Hell (did so in a comment on a prev video, albeit that was more a joke than anything), I'll still sometimes use Christian blasphemous cusses (stub my toe, "Jesus!"), there was quite a while wherein I feared absolute nonexistence (albeit now I think I'd almost welcome it; sometimes I feel like I need to take a millennia long nap), I still cling to free will and don't want to believe in infinite universes because I have difficulty with the idea that any time I do something there's another me doing something else because both make any perception of purpose even more difficult to cling to... it even took probably around a decade or more for me to admit that I am not a Christian, and while I don't think there are any deities, I'm almost disappointed that there are no active sources of divine intervention in the real world, almost like a part of me wishes that the Greek myths I read in 3-4 grade or the D&D pantheons were real. Suffice to say, I'm pretty sure I'm still transitioning into full Atheism.
Thank you Ocean. When these types of Christians approach me their initial reaction is to attack me, they use fear tactics, saying, Yewegh says " love me....or else". This is about the time I school them, and they start running.
I believe in the concept that just because it’s not actually true doesn’t mean it’s not real in some way.
Think about this. The sky is blue. That is undeniable. Unless you are colorblind. Does that make the colorblind person wrong? I think not.
Color is somewhat of an abstract concept in some ways and we all probably perceive it a little differently.
I believe the same about the universe and religion. Just because it’s not real doesn’t mean it isn’t real to you, and I would argue that does make it real in some way.
Ps. I would like to see other peoples perspectives so reply if you want!
I'm very glad you put a name to this phenomenon, O.K. I've struggled with it as well, sometimes directly suffering it and other times almost like an observer on the side who's watching it unfold. Much of my late teen years was spent vacillating between Christianity and exploration of other faiths out of genuine curiosity and the feeling that Christianity just wasn't right for me. My later years involved a stretch of time as an "atheist" (perhaps more accurately described as a God-hater), a brief stint as a Christian again (right after a certain Marmalade Mussolini was elected), and now just...floating, going nowhere in particular. I've come somewhat full circle back to those years of my late teens where I explored. Though now it's less of a genuine curiosity and wide-eyed look of wonder at the world and the possibility of magic, and more of a desperate search for some meaning to my existence and a desire for wonder and awe again.
I am fortunate that my wife is Wiccan and really believes in magic. It helps. But having spent so many years railing against religion and...well, anything spiritual or magical (12 years), it's very difficult to simply...believe. I have to give myself permission to. But my belief from the past involved both that sense of wonder and child-like awe at mystery and the part that Christianity enforced. And I find it difficult to separate the two.
I have the desire to tell someone my life story up to now (44 years), but YT comment sections aren't for that. I guess it's oddly comforting to know that many, many others struggle with the fallout of religion's heavy hand, though I don't wish it on anybody. I guess it gives me a sense of connection and that I'm not alone. And perhaps the silver lining is that it's inadvertently created a community of people--some believers of things and some who have no belief--to stick together and work through this together and grow together as human beings.
May we all be the better and richer for it.
I'm a recent subscriber. I subscribed probably about 2 to 3 weeks ago maybe. I've been a pagan for quite a few years but I never really had a name for it until I found your video "Asatru, Norse Pagan, or Heathen?" To which I realize I more than likely fall under Norse Polytheist like, potentially, many others. I'm not sure if this is latent christianity but I've found in my early 30's I'm struggling with two ideas. The first being the age old what if of "What if there is nothing after death?" which the thought of everything just ceasing nearly gives me the occasional panic attack. But with my family being christian, in general since I don't think they follow any particular denomination, the fear I find myself struggling with is that I won't be able to see them in the afterlife. That our difference in beliefs will separate us, especially me from my grandparents. Sometimes that thought is more terrifying to me than the notion that there is nothing after death. I'm not entirely sure how to deal with it.
There’s a lot of unknowns here. But consider this: Heaven might be one of the many holds in Helheim.🤷🏼♂️
I’m agnostic on the afterlife, personally. I have decided not to worry about it as much. I think that if there is one, i’ll be pleasantly surprised, and i’ll find my ancestors, and learn about how this world works. If there is no afterlife, well, then I wont be upset.
@@OceanKeltoi Thanks for taking the time to reply. I didn't think about it like that.
Not really related but an atheist friend of mine, when I mentioned I was pagan, said I wasn't a pagan because I don't do rain dances or human sacrifices??? It was very confusing for both of us
My problems with this are mostly internalized because I grew up in a church with similar views to that of the nifb.Anyway I still find myself apologizing to a god I no longer believe in simply for being asexual (which was worse than being gay in the eyes of the church), androromantic, and agender. Although the last one less so because according to the church there is no such thing. I have been an atheist for nearly 13 years now and I still do this. Although I rarely find myself thinking that others should do the same because oddly enough my ex church also pushed the doctrine that only god and his chosen leaders aka the priests were allowed to judge others. Also great video. I found my way here from Suris's channel and will definitely be adding to your subscriber count. Also sorry for any spelling mistakes, but I just woke up and am still waiting on coffee.
Thank you, for opening my eyes
A bit off topic, but what do you think of Tolkien's world?
Good video.
You're becoming one of my favourite youtubers. I've never been religious (besides my inherent paganism), but I feel many of my values and societies' values are directly derived from Christianity: "Turn the other cheek", fraternity with everyone independent of their background, harmlessness, etc.
I also agree with Nietzsche that Christianity is the foundation where this social obsession with equality and oppression comes from.
Cheers from Portugal/Germany.
I am now a Pagan/Shamanist thanks to you Keltoi
Not real latent Christianity but all most , I was bought up Bahia as a kid and BELIEVED it hook line and sinker, Till 13 when I came out to my self I like boys well that lead to a series of events that finished with me on the streets of Sydney alone and messed up, found you Ocean while I was trying to use atheists to deprogram. Finally (@ almost 50) i am finely putting those dought behind me. Thanks Ocean and thanks Atheists :)
Yeah, I am a NeoPagan who was raised as a Dutch Calvinist. I still have vestiges of the fear of Hell, but now I suffer more from the fear of nothingness due to all the Atheist channels I watch--which, ironically, have let me get rid of most of my fears associated with my former religion. I LOVE your channel!! On a side note, doesn't Yahweh himself admit to failure when he laments in Genesis that he ever created mankind? Isn't that a type of regret? One only regrets one's actions when one wishes one could do them over. Surely, this has to be an admission of failure and thus, imperfection.
It kind of is. Christians tend to frame that as our failure rather than God’s though.
Yes, contrary to popular Christian belief, Yaweh was very flawed, even more so than the Greek Gods
Yes thank you!
I’ve struggled a lot with it
I'm a brand new pagan. I have a general knowledge of the norse gods and some of the sagas and I'm trying to find my way through it all. I was actually in Seminary to become a pastor for a year and a half before a literal act of the Gods told me that wasn't the path for me. Tornado came through during finals weeks, knocked all the power poles on my street down, missed our house thankfully, but no power for 3 days and no internet for 5. I realized I had been losing my faith through most of that year and a half and that was the final straw. My path has been a difficult one. 2020 has not been kind to my heart and the breaking of old traditions in my life because I was 32 years old and had been something else my entire life. Thankfully I left because the Christian base is just becoming nuttier and nuttier lately lol. Plus every church I went to just focused too much on money. Every other sunday was a sermon on how much money they needed.
While transitioning to paganism, I joined a bunch of Facebook groups trying my best to learn but also staying in the shadows. Only getting on some of the groups if they were private groups. The last thing I needed was for my parents to see any of that and honestly me writing this is risky too. I love my parent dearly and I don't want there to be strife in the last few years of their lives because of a personal choice I made.
Back to latent Christianity, I had to leave several groups on facebook because they went fundamentalist norse pagan on everyone and would kick people out because they asked questions trying to learn. The one admin said he wouldn't tolerate people who don't know about the religion on his page and I just had to go. I wasn't about to trade one dogmatic box for another. I still find myself every once in a while saying silent prayers to God alone rather than a specific deity and I have to stop and focus more on what I need and direct it to the right place. Any help on that end would be great. Its very hard to break lifelong habits.
as someone who lives in South America, but has been to Asia & to "The West", I see A LOT of christian components in the version of Buddhism (e.g.) that we get in Europe & in the Americas, & I don't mean guilt I mean most "feel good" stuff.
You see it a lot when the idea of worshipping certain Jotun comes up.
I was lucky enough to not really have been raised christian, though I did believe in God for the majority of my childhood until declaring myself agnostic in mid high school. Since I had discovered this faith a few months ago, it really clicked with me. Recently I've been doubting my faith a little bit, because I hadn't been overwhelmed by the divine presence I had experienced when I first dedicated myself to heathenry. This caused me to panic. I thought I'd never experience that again and that the gods had abandoned me. It's crazy how someone who was never really christian can still experience this. It's not fun
Wow!!! You got like 1000 subs in a few days? Awesome. I'm new to the channel but I'm still awesome.
My background is catholic (in Italy!) but i grew up raising altars for offerings, on pebbly shores, mossy caves and springs, for spirits. A very few times i had UPG experiences, but in the meantime i also served as altar boy. Later i officially apostatized (here Is a formal request made to dioceses' authorities) and It was no issue for parents and grandparents. Obviously, feeling robbed of many things by christianity i've been ferociously anti-christian for years but i calmed down... Still openly anti-christian, but casually, not at any cost. I have many catholic friends and they never looked down on me.
For me the struggle is the idea that there will be some pride or punishment for reaching out. I’ve been doing research and i have a desire to pray and establish a relationship with the gods but I struggle to just sit down and do it because I’m afraid there will be a punishment for not doing it right or for having waited so long and that is definitely from my trauma from Christianity.
I was a born-in Jehovah's Witness (they're a cult, btw, steer clear). I was raised to believe that the Bible and its teachings are a fact of life, and not mythology; all other beliefs were false, and if you ever thought you were interacting with another god, it was just one of Satan's demons messing with you to drag you away from god. I was taught that Jehovah, his angels, and the demons are watching me constantly, and that god reads my mind 24/7, so he knows everything I've ever thought, everything I'm thinking, and everything I will ever think. Armageddon is around the corner, so don't make any solid future plans, and don't forget to be good or god will kill you like he's putting down a rabid animal when Armageddon comes, even if your only sin was loving someone of the same gender, or being trans. - I think my biggest struggles with latent Christianity come from this aspect of it. I feel like I'm under a microscope with pagan gods because of my experience, even though they could give two shits if I did something mean to someone 4 years ago.. I'm constantly worried about offerings not being good enough, or offending them because I struggle so much from latent Christianity. I still have that gnawing fear of, "What if the JW's had it right?". It's not as bad as it was, I mean, I left in 2019, so it's faded over time. But I have a lot of shit to work through, evidently. I know this video was 4 years ago, but I wanted to say my piece. Thanks for your videos like this, they actually help a lot.
Thank you for sharing. I was never JW but I can say for certain you aren't alone. I suggest watching Chris Stuckmann's video on JW if you feel this way in the future
I would say that I exited Christianity relatively unscathed. Relatively. I struggle with how I want to relate to spiritual figures who are considered gods. Odin has come to me in dreams a few times and has specifically told me not to worship him like I did my previous God. That he does not want me laying myself low, groveling, and giving up my own spiritual power. He has extended to me guidance and counsel over complete leadership. So yea struggling to find a balance of being able to tap in spiritually in ways that are familiar enough to evoke enjoy and comfort in my practice but not giving up my own personal power.
I was always open to the idea of God being flawed, not always powerful, or being capable of changing, but then I learned that was way off from what Christianity actually taught. That perfection made the questionable stuff in the bible feel very unsettling. I'm not allowed to question these important things because who am I, but another lowly, sinfull human that God can't even be in the presence of. That messes with your head.
I've been both in fundamentalist Christianity and a non-Christian cult at this point in my life, though both were a few years ago now. I'm trying to explore more progressive spirituality now, and thoughts from that cult are constantly nagging in my mind. This isn't the first time I've watched this video, but I knew I needed to listen to it again today.
Cingularcomment based on what was said at about three minutes and 30 seconds about the relationship between science and atheists I will propose only that a frith exists between them
I had social baggage from leaving Christianity, told by friends and random people online that if I were to leave, I’d be walking on glass.....
I’m looking into Hindu philosophy, mostly because it doesn’t give me guilt like Christianity did
I was religious for 15 years, left 5 years ago, and am grateful that I’ve left.
Well said
I still deal with latent christianity when it comes to.signs and rituals