Mekkah and Mangs make an FE7 Tier List! (20,000 Subs Special)
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- Enjoy watching me and Mangs argue over how good or bad every FE7 unit is, all for my 20k Special!
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It's time for Eligood strats
Mekkkah I’d rather see you talk about how archers are bad because Mangs always uses Louise
Woahg
I disagree with the criteria. Joining requirements SHOULD be considered. Imagine if there is a Marcus character, that is even slightly better than Marcus. And you get him at the same time. But if you get him, no other Units ever can join your team (because he smells). So you get a really good unit, but you lose every other unit in the rest of the game.
If *he* was in this tier list, he'd be 1 tier *over* Marcus, simply because they ignore the joining cost. Thats the issue. The joining cost is part of the character, and affect how viable they are.
In that case, why should "getting someone late game" be held against the character? Its not their fault. Its not Karlas fault she joins late game. She should be pretty high tier because if she joined early, she'd be a beast :D
The patch that made Rebecca have a purpose in life
Eliwood is the most powerful being in fire emblem, he bacame a king and didnt die in the first 5 chapters of FE6
He also does jack shit for almost all of fe6
Cus he literally just tells Roy to take care of it while he stays at home for the rest of the game.
Samuffert Eliwood got a cold so he was like “guys this 15 year old is running the country, see ya”
@@jloe01 Okay, so Eliwood isn't the smartest of leaders, what's your point?
actually its more important that he is a dad and didn't die
There have been wars over Merlinus' placement in 2010?
Such a brutal, irrational world we lived in.
Merly"s tents are to blame.
We all know Merlinus is the real SS-tier unit.
The developers are to blame
The fruit knives are to blame
Man, I was part of those old wars over Merlinus. It was hilarious.
Well, he 5* Funds but does shit for Tactics so...
Merlinus has some of the best growths in the game, maybe even the entire series.
120% 100% 90% 90% 100% 30% 15%
He's actually so good that you can't deploy him for the last chapter of the game.
I think you should reconsider his tier placement.
fe6 karel growths:pathetic
Devs had to prevent merlinus from playing the final chapter. If they didnt you know he would...
*strap every single weapon in supply to cart and leads the charge
- steamrolls nergal
- one hit ko's fire dragon
* rides off Into the sunset.
Merlinus is literally too powerfull
Ill have you know, I played a female only run of FE7, and STILL benched Rebecca.
How???
@@hylianfelldragon1308 louise
femqle only run?i though rebecca is the only one
Is Lucius allowed? Or no Traps for this run?
@@whatamidoing6555 What are you talking about Lucius is best Waifu
Smh merlinus not top tier. He can never die
heroes never die!
The best thing about Wallace is how you can use his Lyn Mode Knight Crest to promote Kent or Sain
And then you kill off Wallace in Lyn Mode, and when he rejoins later, he joins promoted.
Big brain
Holy shit
I never thought one could say this, but I have no problems with this tier list. The only changes I would make are personal preferences, and this is not about that. Spectacular Mekkah, you amaze me.
Guys, I'm gonna have to argue with you on Karla. I'm sorry, but she's easily SS tier. Why? Because she can do something no other character can do.
Fly? No.
Rescue drop? Not really.
Attack at 1-2 range? Nope.
Karla is the only unit in the game who is so bad, so useless, that you can safely deselect her in the preparations screen and replace her with Marcus without having to worry about losing out on some niche tactic. This is a cool trick known only to the most hardcore of Fire Emblem fans, called "benching", wherein you swap out bad units for good ones. It's actually very similar to the Class Change option of some other games like New Mystery of the Emblem, but instead of turning a bad character into a slightly less bad character, you're changing them entirely into a great character. It's just like alchemy, but you're giving the middle finger to equivalent exchange and swindling the game by giving it a pile of crap in exchange for gold.
This automatically makes Karla the best character in the game, because she can effectively become *any* character using this trick, and having one Marcus is almost as good as having two Marcuses. Thank you.
Thoroughly enjoyed reading this
Seems legit
😴😴😴
I agree with this statement.
Me in 2003: Man Marcus sucks, he gets such crappy exp and has bad growths BENCH
Me in 2020: One day I can only hope to be 1/10th the man that Marcus is
Would need an SSS+ Tier for Seth if you do Sacred Stones
Official FE7 cover art
Eliwood: "HRMMPH!"
Lynn: "HIYAAAH!"
Hector: cave bob
He's about to ubga bunga some lancers
Finally Lowen is appreciated.
Also this proves FE7 is one of the few where armored units are used.
FE11 as well, assuming no warp skip. Generals having 6 move instead of 5 makes them so much more viable. Also, every enemy having half decent hit makes durability very nice.
There is only one armored unit (unless you also count Hector as armored). I think it speaks to how good a unit Oswin (and Hector) is rather than how good armored units are in FE7.
Lucky Lucas Wallace
Lucky Lucas Classes can't exist without units within them, so it's kind of useless to boil it down like that and only looking at the base stats and properties of the class itself. But it is true that because of the inherent weakness of the armor knight class, units within them have to make up for it to be useful because they don't have the extra utility and movement other classes have by default.
Also, FE14 conquest is also pretty great for armored knights. Effie is very essential for earlygame and durability is also very useful in that game. Benny as well if you train him imo.
Lowen is a great character and I love him.
I'll have you know I used Rebecca in Eliwood normal and she became good in general!
PITFALL
I too used Rebecca!
Me and my friend have a file we play on together and we have a Str blessed Rebecca ( we also have her an energy ring )
Honestly...
My Wil turned out pretty good. Only downside was his speed but I did have a speedwing anyway, so he started doubling with high damage.
Yes, stat boosters don't count, but still, he was a great damage chipper or enemy finisher.
Although I admit Rebecca was a bit screwed. Either that or I dunno how to train her.
Mister Koopsy
Wil and Rebecca are trainable and can be used, that’s not the argument. The argument is they simply arnt worth is from a objective gameplay standpoint.
Also if Rebecca got rng screwed it’s not your fault.
Raven, I think he should have been A rank probably tied with Harken, His base stats are great. He one-rounds out of the box, and stays that way as he levels, doesn't have competition for the hero crest at all, Guy, Dorcas and Barftre are very underwhelming to subpar units that would otherwise use it., Raven can easily be level 10 as early as chapter 17x if you can handle fighting the Fargus pirates with some planning, and his promotion bonuses are fantastic, it gives him access to axes and 1 more move, and if you wait longer the more he has time to grow even more dominant in combat but even early promotion for sooner axes is a great option for him.. He is available from chapter 17 onward which is really good, and he is one of the best choices to actually use a single goddess icon on just so enemy mercenaries dont have that 1-2% crit on him if thats an issue at all. His only real weakness is not having a horse. The Flyers need someone to drop off for rescue strats to be rated so highly and Raven should be one of THEE premier units for it. It is just my opinion but at the end of the day you need to kill enemies and Raven does a damn good job at that for the whole time he is available
Raven is better than Harken imo. On my next play through I’ll recruit them both and grind them in the arena to compare stats but from using them separately in different runs I liked Raven’s speed and health more than Harken’s defense.
@@RushAnthem69 There are average stats on serenesforest, so you don't need to do that. A lvl 8 Hero Raven will have mostly comparable stats to starting Harken, with lower Res and Luk, and more Spd and HP.
Bets on Heather being number 1 somehow
heather good
Sheadon Wedesh tf is Heather?
Nerf Heather
Mekkah: "Is it 'penalize' or 'pEEnalize'?"
Mangs: "It's 'pEENalize'."
>Proceeds to say pEEnalize for five minutes
Mangs strats apparently extend to pronunciation.
Peen
It is pEEnalize
Its pronounced either way i hear pEEnalize way more often than penalize tho and also prefer it
Peenalize for English English
Penalize for American English
Pentalize for Etrurian English
@@Feraligono Okay that makes sense.
We Americans see a lot of sports broadcasts without even trying and all the announcers say PENalize all the damn time. I've heard any different.
Been playing so much Berwick Saga that the footage in the bottom left actually jarred me as units were hitting and doubling after hitting and not alternating play, but I'm very happy to have watched this. Thanks Mekkah and Mangs, and good luck in the future with the subs.
Okay lots of edits today. You asked for it at the end, so I will give my opinion. I think I would argue Sain up 1 spot and Eliwood up 1 cause he is so much better than Lyn after he promotes. Yes that is late, however the difference is so massive. Lances and a mount and reliable doubling vs bows and overkill speed is not even a competition and Eliwood has good aid too.
What we really need is a noob Eliwood normal mode tier list.
Regis Philbin or a trash player Lyn Mode normal run
Hector and Oswin S tier in that one then.
I can do that, I never beat the game, but got close
Dorcas god tier
I kind of have an appreciation for Will. Still bottom tier for sure. But his kind of okay base str (and with only double effectiveness in this game) he's a really reliable way of getting rid of early pegasus knights and wyverns in a way that an axe user will not manage to match since they're not always accurate enough.
Erk is nice because he has a monopoly on hitting enemies with high def and low res without the need for effective weapons. At least untill Canas shows up.
Mangs is hating on Geitz because he's the best archer in the game.
Wallace has decent stats. So for like, enemy reinforcements coming from behind he's a perfect way to stall.
Finally, other people who like wil. He's just a great support unit and a guaranteed kill on an annoying enemy, which is greater than people realize. He can also do some light tanking with that extra defense.
I'm so glad that you guys have come around to Lowen. Lowen is my favorite Cavalier and having played multiple playthroughs (on Hector Hard mode) Lowen had become a staple in all of my playthroughs.
He's just so boring... he's reliable, but not just not fun. His character and style just exude boredom...
I love how the Ostian gang is all together in the B tier
I wonder if the reason why Serra's magic stat is low because she's not that pious to begin with.
Alex My Serra is currently level 11, with only 4 magic. Didn't bother me much at first, because I knew she had bad magic, but then I realized that in 10 levels she only gained 2 magic with a 50% growth...
Oöf
@@juicedkpps Yeah, and it's not like she becomes sturdier or dodgier with those levels either.
@@dragonknightleader1 But you know, in the end she had the highest staff rank in the game for me so I still ended up making her my main healer. Plus I still do like her and wanted to support her with Erk anyway. But she did get a lot of speed, actually so, she became quite dodgy.
Congrats for the 20k sub count!
On a different note, Heath below Hawkeye and Harken is puzzling, his mid-lategame flight + mobility + Hector ferrying con + potential bosskilling combat is so important for efficiency. He makes the best use out of EXP investment to improve his offense, and with the game's numerous defend maps that can't go faster it's not hard to give him that before the flight-intensive maps. If he didn't require EXP investment to be offensively self-sufficient or promote there would a case for him to be in S, even as he is, Heath is at least on par and arguably contributes more than Fiora or Lyn-modeless Florina despite the relative lack of availability.
That's the malignant influence of the eggmaster
Heath is far beyond Lyn-modeless Florina. In fact, without Lyn mode, I'd argue everyone in Lyn's group drops a solid tier as they become the Caelin Suck Squad.
Well, I don't want to be THAT guy, and I don't know if Mekkah or anyone cares about my opinion BUT I came to say a positive thing about Rebecca. No, she's not S tier. No, she doesn't deserve training and promoting. What I'm going to defend in this comment is that she deserves a tier above Wil. I actually agree with most of Mekkah's and Mangs' opinions on her, but she has something that everyone else in D tier lacks: availability and forced deployment. No matter how bad she is, she is force deployed in chapters 12 and 13, and then chapters 13x and 14 have enough slots to deploy everyone including her. In a stage of the game as early as this, and in the higher difficulty, everyone in the army matters, and you have to make the best of your units. Rebecca may be weak, but she can safely and accurately chip damage out of some enemies to let your better units get the kills. She also has effective damage against the stupidly common pegasus knights that populate the early game. And they weigh themselves down so badly even Rebecca can take care of them. She is by all means an early game asset that has a niche utility, but utility nonetheless.
tl;dr Not using Rebecca during the first couple chapters is a pitfall. Thanks for reading.
So basically Wolt
With her growth rates she can easily become stronger than louise. It's just math, i don't know the need of denying this. I guess it's too much a bother to train an archer from level 1 but still this fact should be mentioned
I also agree with this. She doesn't carry the team typically but it sure is nice to have her when you need her. Bases are pretty important because level ups don't guarantee stats, but chip damage is definitely utility early on
Rebecca>Wil for me. She absolutely destroyed Louise in stats for me and have always used her in my team.
@@KunaiKrazy except.................... louise doesn't need to be babied and can actually one shot pegasus knights................. her bases are also not shit..........
I hope you do this for other games as well! Particularly the Tellius games.
This may be a stupid opinion, but I don't think you can tier Athos. He's a unit for sure, but he doesn't fit in any tier. He's one of the strongest units in the game, but he also has little to no impact. This contradictory status should really make him untiered or in the very middle of C tier.
I mean it probably doesn't count, but 2 body rings and Filla's Might makes him one or two round KO the dragon. Not many people can lay claim to that.
But you can apply that to any unit, so it's not really worth considering.
What about this: If you had the option not to field Athos, would you bring him to the final chapter anyway?
@@d3-ll754
Not really. It takes 0 skill and effort to train Athos. And he can practically solo to dragon already.
While he has the worst availability, they did set rules at the beginning to only include blue units and because he fits that category and his ridiculous bases he just sort of broke the tier list's balance
No Lyn Mode really screws over Sain, Kent, and Florina.
Yes I realized it in my recent play. Lyn mode really helped a lot.
@OkayGotIt Without Lyn mode honestly Florina is basically unsalvageable. Without the extra growths she's incredibly weak and her speed is basically worthless due to her ungodly bad 4 con. She loses 1 speed just from the Slim lance ffs. She becomes a terrible exp sink and while I wont say she's not worth using(just her ability to rescue units from anywhere is a godsend) I will say she's an actual pain to use in general saved ONLY by way of being the only flying unit that early in the game. Like I'd honestly drop her a full tier, maybe even more if you didn't have to wait 9 full chapters to get Fiora
This is definitely true, but why would you not play lyn mode. I get that it's just a challenge, but it doesnt even make sense story wise. Seems irrelevant to me.
And Lyn a bit cause she's screwed in hector mode being spear users that's the only real reason why Lyn needed a head start cause she gets screwed in hector story which hector basically counters most unit that counters lyn I can't really say that Lyn is C given that with manni katti (not even Sol katti) Lyn would murder people and brave bow Lyn the only reason why she gets screwed over hector mode without going Lyn mode is you already screwed her over with two handicaps basically even story wise it dosent make sense I should also mention I loose erk more than I loose Lyn even when it was hector mode no Lyn but basically Lyn shines better if she gets a pass with Lyn mode cause she's already screwed in hector mode with weapon triangle and you cut off her possible chance of actually showing she's a bit better low str or not that no Lyn mode really cuts off a few characters to shine cause they needed that extra push I should also mention I loose Dorcas early on too I dunno how your luck is great but damn Dorcas can't dodge shit
This is true. Without Lyn Mode, Sain and Kent can even struggle holding their own against the enemies by their starting position. 22/23 HP, 6/7 Def, and 8/7 Spd for Kent and Sain respectively is not good at all for HMM's enemies. There is a reason that group is called the Cealin Suck Squad without Lyn Mode.
Wow, Tiering Saga is looking really cool
Also, congrats for 20K, keep it up
Rebbeca might be bad, but I love using her in HNM, she's usually my most reliable unit to try surviving Vaida to nab the uber spear.
Good to see Canas fairly high up.
My strategy for that would be to take a weak unit and have them be cannon fodder for Vaida to set up the mine glitch
@@100purenacl3 I end up using Lancereaver Raven on the fort most of the time. Or just move Merlinus up there in the 11 turns you have.
S-tier was literally Marc-S tier.
Yeah cause the only thing better than Marcus is a Marcus that can move twice in a turn lmfao!
You can tell it's a no Lyn mode run, because Florina isn't right next to him.
@@ddshocktrooper5604 florinia isnt even close to marcus tier you bench her as soon as you get an actusl good peg knight
@@ziegfeld4131 florina still joins earlier than fiora and can get supports faster, lyn mode only helps her more if you use it. Fiora may have slightly better offense when she joins, but florina still has those 5 or so chapters to get kills and demonstrate her flier utility.
Congrats, dude! :)
Honestly, if you wanted an "average" tier, you probably should've gone with one more since Marcus hogs the S tier on his own. As is, B feels more like "above average" to me.
The only placement that I would really disagree on is Heath - I find that he's clearly an A tier unit since he is just _so_ good once he's around. Sure, he joins three maps after Fiora does, but I find that he outpaces her quickly enough to consider him about as good as her. His physical bulk at base (32 HP | 11 Def) is comparable to Marcus (31 | 10 at base, and his bulk doesn't grow all that quickly), which is just insane. If you promote him at level 15, he sports 42-43 HP, 17 Str, 14-15 Spd, 13-14 Def - _and_ he can carry Hector when they're both promoted, which out of the peg sisters only Florina can do.
I think I would put him between Lowen and Fiora, to be honest. But I should also say that I'm biased since I'm doing a Ranked run right now where his low base level is actually a boon (and also Fiora got Str screwed, so I didn't even bother promoting her). Still - he's a tanky flyer who is tied for 2nd highest aid of any Canto units (and Rath isn't that great endgame). _So_ good.
Other than that, I pretty much agree with this list. Of course, there's some details that I would change - I think Lyn without LHM levels is worse than Eliwood, for example (her survivability is just horrible), or that Hawkeye might fit better into the B tier - but that's really just splitting hairs on my part.
Oh, and just to spite MBangs: Rebecca > Wallace :p
(well, also because in my opinion, her early game chip, weak as it may be, is still worth more than Wallace's possible contributions)
Really, how do you get over heath's weakness in the beginning. I know he's a great unit for afa's drops but how will he get kills in the first place
Yes! Spectacular! You amaze me.
Grats on 20k well deserved Mekkah
Congrats Mekkah, you earned it! wasn't 10k like yesterday?
Just wanted to say I really respect your content and style (I don't think anyone else could've convinced me to maybe, one day, touch thracia 776) and I'm excited to see where you'll go next. One day I'll be telling someone I watched your videos ever since you were "a channel about pitfalls" lmao
Congrats on the milestone, Mekkah. You've come a long way since the 240p days. I remember watching dondon's FE6 LTC that you were featured in a few years ago and checking out your channel afterward. Back then you were sitting at around 300 subs and I mostly dismissed your content because of the video/sound quality along with your infrequent upload schedule. I stumbled on your channel again when you were around the 8k mark and at that time I wasn't watching Mangs's videos, so seeing the jump in subscribers was really surprising to me.
From that point on, I've watched every new video that you uploaded and you've become easily my favourite youtuber, FE or otherwise. Your manner of speech and commentary is chill but engaging and doesn't feel forced at all, which is really rare nowadays. That along with the fact that you're actually good at the games you play really sets you apart from basically all other let's players/gaming channels. So all in all, you really deserve the 20k. Hopefully, your channel will continue growing well and you'll be able to do this full-time someday (if you want to, that is).
No matter what, I'll keep supporting you for sure! I'm excited that your Conquest playthrough has now truly begun and I'll be eagerly awaiting new videos of both it, and your FE6 RR playthrough. :)
Merlinus not above Marcus, unsubbing :(
Juan Pablo Loyola Sánchez You’re right. Sorry for mismatching names.
Alexander Smith You could make a legitimate claim for Merlinus being the best unit in the game because there is literally zero downside to fielding him. He doesn’t steal exp and doesn’t take up a unit slot either.
@@michaelshan22 and like....being a shed for your weapons AND he can turn out to be dodge machine later + he never dies is just....so nutty
An actual on time sub special, I like it!
1:21:48 "who needs Lucius anyway lol"
Dude
My favorite character
Ouch.
Same here. He's a beast with that speed
THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU!
Does Mangs hold back his meme-ness on Mekkah's channel? Very analytical and well thought out from both parties, I really enjoyed it. Congrats on 20k.
When mekkah/mangs get to 100k I expect a 7 hour video of a radiant dawn teir list. Congrats btw I love videos like this.
I know it's not really ideal, but I do find it fun to train up Rebecca and a few other sub-optimal units. I can't help but enjoy seeing my favorites shine on the battlefield! Interesting video, btw! It's nice seeing in general how the utility of each unit plays out.
Congratulations Mekkah, this is a milestone you definitively deserved! Can't wait to see what you'll bring in 2019!
You know what's hilarious, you started out with 5 tiers to make sure there was a middle tier for average characters, but then Marcus occupied the entire top tier to himself, turning the rest of it into 4 tiers. So A tier is where great characters go, B tier is for good ones, C is for bad ones, and D is for meme trash.
Raven deserves A tier he is so good and when he promotes he gets access to hand axes very solid unit with very little effort to train up. I could never see myself playing without dart i know its expensive to promote him but i just love the animation and as soon as you get him some xp he holds his own no problems even in hardmode.
The FE Sorter appears uses a technique for sorting called MergeSort but with user input deciding what is better than what. It provides a definitive ordering of all the provided units, but has to know how each element compares to another to do it, which is why you have to compare almost every character to one another. In terms of sorting algorithms, but very tiring for a human to do manually.
But enough of my ramblings, congrats on the 20k!
I think a better way of looking at this kind of tier list would be like a game-wide MVP ranking. Each time they perform a useful action they gain brownie points, so units who are around for longer will have more opportunity to earn them. This kind of explanation would make it clearer to the average player that these characters aren't being "recommended" for use, but rather being graded on their overall performance in their individual contexts.
Athos is an interesting example in this regard, because he's around for one chapter but he can earn a lot of brownie points against any of the bosses. I was tempted to agree with Mangs saying Athos could sit in n/t along with Merlinus (and that was one of the first things I thought coming into the video), but doing so would undermine the entire point of this kind of "tier list". By saying Athos is untierable you would essentially cede that availability can't be adequately factored into the equation.
However, that conundrums speaks to a larger problem I have with this kind of "tier list", and that's the fact that it ranks all units in hindsight. It's only about how they ended up performing to a player playing in a certain way (or like I said, better described as a game-wide MVP ranking). While it's insightful to look back and try to rate these units, the implications of the letter-grading is not best suited to use as a reference going forward, which is what I believe tiers lists generally should (or at least have been in other contexts) be used for. But this isn't a problem with the list or the criteria, it's entirely a problem with the terminology, as FE's unique character availability breaks the conventions of a comprehensible tier list, and ultimately ends in a lot of arguments about semantics and subjectivity based on incongruous criteria. While these arguments can give insight into units in ways people might not have gotten otherwise (and I believe your guys' tier list does as good a job of this as I think you could with a FE tier list), I think it would be a lot clearer to rephrase it as an MVP ranking, so that more of the community can be on the same page about it.
im done im shipping them
Have you not been this whole time?
@@RockstarEddie-rk1rm but... mekkah×jill
Congrats on 20k Mekkah! I look forward to your continued growth! :)
I'd personally put Matthew in low A tier because not only he gets the first guiding ring as you pointed out, he gets basically every early promotion item. Without him you can't unlock the hero crest chest in ch17 because you don't have any chest keys at that point, and the stealable elysian whip in the boat map. You can still get the ch17 knight's crest by making the enemy thief pilfer it and then kill him but you still gotta choose between it and a silver sword (pretty obvious choice tho). The rest looks mostly fine for me
Very good and relaxing tier list. Here are the changes I would make:
Dancers->Between Fiora and Sain. Maybe I'm just bab but I really don't think that Marcus is the only combat unit worth more than a dancer.
Hawkeye and Harken should be B imo. Maybe even Pent. I just value availability really highly but still, half the game you aren't around, so eh. Hawkeye definitely over Harken though.
Oswin and Serra should be just above the thieves: Serra is usually benched after chapter 14 and even then, guiding ring competition is tough and her combat isn't too good. Oswin just can't keep up in big maps. He is rather useful early on but after I guess Pirate ship the maps just completely outpace him.
Vaida-> C tier, probably between Isadora and Rath. Same issue as the A tiers. Whilst she is rather good for those 3 maps, it is only 3 maps. And those are 3 maps where you already have all your other units pretty much fully trained. She doesn't stand out enough, for me at least, to be in the same tier as Heath and Farina.
Athos->n/t He and Merlinus (#MustacheGang) in my eyes are both useless and essential. They basically don't exist but they also allow you to actually beat the game. A unit like that can't really be tiered well in my eyes.
Eliwood-> Above Lyn. Good Late game and iffy early game beats out decent early game and non existent late game. Whilst the Katti is nice, as soon as it is gone she is useless. Basically Guy with the Edge but when he isn't needed anymore. Eliwood is a bad unit, but horsey and javelins for the big maps with 1-2 range enemies at the end of the game easily outweigh Lyn for me.
Haven't used Karel or Geitz enough to give them accurate ratings. Maybe down a couple of spots but eh.
Really good list. Thank you Meqqah and Egg
Honestly, i agree with most of the things you've said, and even the things i disagree with aren't objectively wrong. Eliwood doesn't double and the rapier is much wrose than the mani katti, so him being better depends on how much you value bulk vs damage (his late game is substantialy better though). Also i think ninian and nils shouldn't be ranked as the same unit, ninian is definately S tier (the main reason for why the mages get a staff rank is because of that ninian helps their staff ranks out ALOT), nils on the other hand joins much later and even though they share stats, they are still different units, nils is still A tier, but definately lower than lowen and fiora (dunno about sain and kent, they join kinda underleveled).
depending on how you value certain things, units can be placed differently, though i will have to say that geitz is about as good as harken and hawkeye, dunno why he's bellow the mages. Also karel is definately in the right place, this is coming from someone who LOVES using karel.
To me the Eliwood vs Lyn thing is entirely down to if you do use Lyn Mode or not.
Without Lyn mode I honestly think neither character has any place in a Hector Hard Mode run for anything. Both Lyn and Eliwood are equally useless. Eliwood's "better late game" (if you can even call it that) doesn't matter because you have half a dozen mounted horsemen who are both better and don't require the same level of babying before you'd even consider placing him. He can be used if you are dead set on using him and if you do he isn't a complete joke character but there is zero reason to ever bother. Still that is more than Lyn has so sure, put him a slot ahead of her.
With Lyn mode, Eliwood stays useless while Lyn is actually semi decent. She's a better Guy from start to finish (and post promotion she's a better Louise as well if you grind bow ranks) who buffs one of your best units (Florina A Support). Maybe not worth using even then but she has a niche if you feel the need to play with her and a decent early game. As for late game, sure the Sol Katti is garbage but she doesn't need it. Between Mani Katti (which she likely won't run out of unless you're really liberal with it) and a Lance Reaver she'll beat most things as well as any other one range locked unit would.
@@Murkglow I can agree with this.
People that turtle in FE: lets turtle
Thracia 776: you are being too slow, i am gonna send Galzus to kick your ass
edit: yes that happened to me in the escape chapter
Why the hell did you try turtling in an escape chapter
@@leifster7762 i was trying to get some weapons to sell
@@Jadanbr
Really didn’t need to that at that moment in a chapter you’re rushed in
@@leifster7762 now i know
congrats on your 20k subs mekkah.
you could also argue that this tier list almost coincide with the support list, if you add supports the list would be the same?
it would be interesting a run of fe8 with mangs comments in the challenge of max everything wihout the tower, and without lossing units, if you loss then you have to start of zero.
i feel like fe7 need more units that were in fe6 but like it is marcus, young and functional.
Oh jeeze, I'll see you guys in an hour.
Playing an HHM S-rank run right now, no Lyn mode. Currently at 23x.
Kent and Sain are definitely a lot more ass without Lyn mode. They join underleveled and struggle to gain levels unless you feed them kills. The mercenaries to the left of their starting position give them huge issues, I don't think they even 3HKO them and they take a lot of damage on the counters. Not a good sign for a unit type that's supposed to be fairly durable.
They're good in the following castle chapter just because you want as many mounts as you can get but they're pretty useless in Badon and the ship because they can't take any hits nor deal good damage, and mobility doesn't matter if they can't use it. They struggle to keep up afterwards since they probably haven't gotten many levels.
I would argue that Kent nor Sain have hit Fiora's level by the time she joins, and their stats are worse overall at the same level anyway since she has +1-2 AS on them when all at level 7 and only needs to gain 3 to get 13 AS. She does have some STR problems but IMO they're not as bad as Kent and Sain's SPD problems. Lastly, she's in a better class, a fact that's apparent in the following chapter.
You could also argue Florina is better than them thanks to being way more useful during 17x, 19, and 19x and just as useful during 17. And they all have stat problems stopping them from being fielded in 18, so Florina's being worse doesn't really matter in that.
I'd move a unit to the left or to the right one here and there, and Rebecca needs to be 8 tiers higher, but on the whole, good list. Congrats on 20k!
I think it would be interesting to see a more casual list with Lyn mode included, if only because I want to see Florina at the tippy top of the list where she belongs.
Florina gets too much love
There needs to be a counter for the amount of times Mekkah brings up negative growths
I'm showing up in the comment section to say I use Rebecca in Hector Hard Mode.
She's pretty awful.
It's kinda like carrying around a second Eliwood that can't counter in melee and never gets a horse.
I just like having an archer around, though.
What about Wil then? Higher strength growth.
@@dragonknightleader1 Will is even worse. His growths aren't as important as his bases and class.
Spongbob Squarepants
Skipping lyn mode is a pitfall
@@spongbobsquarepants3922 his bases and class are just like Rebecca's
2 nitpicks from me
Eliwood > Lyn and Heath up to A tier i think we need to get Mangs to use Heath more tbh i think he criminally under rates him lol
In a game were Elysium Whips are limited and more deserving for better units, I overlook Heath too.
@@dragonknightleader1 Well i believe there are 3 available in Hard Mode and theres also the earth seal so theres no shortage for the fliers unless u really need the earth seal for someone else
I find that Eliwood gets pretty tanky at a point.
@@fakesmile172 heath is awesome, mangs underrates him heavily, also lyn= eliwood tbh :/
Eliwood is pretty ok in the Japanese version for early game being able to oneshot cavaliers and armored units, the problem is that he almost always has triangle disadvantage against those units, but he is able to hit pretty consistent thanks to 95% hit in rapier.
Does Lucius really deserve to be on par with Erk and Canas though? Without Lyn mode his durability is just so bad, he has 1 def and very little health. That's not worth fielding over almost any of the other units you have at his join time.
I feel like Lucius and Erk are pretty equal but Canas should be a bit higher. Canas is just so good when he early promotes to warrant being on the same level as the other mages.
In my recent playthrough with 3x effectiveness fe7 Lowen became a beast and effectively gained a more tanky Marcus loved having both of them and with 3 times effectiveness archers can actually kill flyers consistently, much more fun in my opinion.
Seriously, I think 2x effectiveness makes the game harder, not easier as they intended.
14:23 "It's my sleepover and I get to choose the movie"
I think that the tier list looks good overall, but I do find that a few units are weirdly placed.
Hawkeye seems a little high given that all he has is his combat, and it's not really *that* good. Pent has similar combat, but he also has a great staff rank, and he doesn't join that much later.
I think that Raven deserves to be higher if only because his combat is really good; he can basically do anything that Harken can except in CoD, and he joins earlier. Canas for example might get enough speed to double some things, but it's tough for him to keep up with one rounding long enough to be useful combat wise if he doesn't proc the speed he needs. His dodge and HP are strictly worse than Raven's making his combat noticably worse too. His staff utility is decent, but it takes a lot of effort (and probably gives him less combat utility) to get his staff rank up to become a useful physic bot.
It's also minor, but I feel that Lucius is better than Erk just because of the C staves that he gets on promotion and can start using Physic earlier. It's a tough call though since Erk can be fairly useful before Lucius joins.
Legault seems way too high to me since he is obsoleted by the time he joins because door keys and chest keys exist; there isn't any reason to field him over a unit that can also do other things as well as open chests and doors. It's also more of a minor thing, but I think that Dart should be a little higher. He does require a little bit of effort, but he can become a good combat unit with investment, and a unit like Vaida joins way too late to ever contribute much.
Heath also seems a little low, but I find him difficult to talk about or rank in general, so I'll save my thoughts on that.
I feel like you are ignoring a few flaws with raven and lucius, while underrating legault.
While raven is good at combat he is also locked to one range untill he promotes and is stuck with 5-6 move. Harken comes with good weapon ranks, pre promoted and without any investment required.
Lucius is easily the worst out of the three mages, while he is definately the best staff user out of the three, Light magic sucks in fe 7 and he joins underleveled as hell. His high magic does not cancel out the bad parts of Light magic, since he is basically locked to lightning and shine (which slows him down) for the whole game. Thunder and flux are both much better than any of his tomes.
Legault comes in to replace Matthew, he just does what Matthew does but better, with no investment required. He has much better combat, better speed and comes without any investment but joins much later (hence why he's lower than matthew).
Also dart will have hit issues and will become irrelevant when hawkeye joins (unless you early promote him, but that makes him worse than hawkeye long term so eh?)
Yeah, hawkeye is worse in combat than pent, but unless your name is harken, no one is even close to him. Comparing hawkeye to pent is like comparing any shonen protag with saitama. At least his incredible bulk and great combat (while not as great as pent's, it gets the job done) are some reasons to deploy him
@@JaDX243 if this only compares combat then yeah (though jaffar is really good for when you get him), but if you mean that no one comes close to pent as a unit then you gotta check out marcus.
@@damiendristig2263 How does dart having hit issues make Hawkeye better than he is? Comparing two units only on class is a pitfall.
Aww, would have been really nice to see your own tier list (the one you did in preparation) and compare it to the one you made with mangs. Still great video tho!
1:17:24 Yes, agreed that Karel belongs at the bottom of the sea.
I think you would have greatly benefitted from another tier to better differentiate what each tier means and better represent the difference in quality of certain characters. Having no perfectly average tier forces you to decide if someone is in the better or worse half of the cast.
Also, I'd say second-best combat is probably worth low A tier.
B tier is that. There's actually 5 tiers only
Thank you for the awesome content and you are welcome for the twenty k. Keep up the good work.
It's really nice how we went from 20.000 to 50.000 within a year.
X tier: EHM Fargus, Eliwood's horse, the Ocean Seal, Snowstorm-kun, Niime using her unlimited warp range to warp FE6 Marcus into the past so you can have two Marcuses, Louise's big bustin blessed bodacious bumpin birthing hips, Zephiel's unconscious body, and, of course, Bad Mutton
Thanks for giving me something to watch for the night Mekkah!!
I have two rules of thumb for Fire Emblem advice:
1) Never trust anyone who puts Nino in the top tier.
2) Never trust anyone who puts Marcus in the top tier.
46:43 I agree with that position of hector, even though i love him. In Eliwood mode though he is top tier.
Bald man crashes 20k subscriber party.
Mekkah does a 20k subs special when he actually has 2k subs
I'm shocked
For some of the trash tier units I have always wondered what kind of level ups they have to get to be “viable.”
Like I use Rebecca to chip in the first couple of maps. If she got strength like 3 levels in a row would that make her decent THAT run (Maybe that is not a good example. Guy maybe?)
I remember you guys talked about how Bartre can’t catch up even if he gets good rolls.
Maybe certain mid tier characters get more out of a few lucky levels...
Wil/Rebecca are fine for Eliwood normal mode. With some investment, they can reliably one-round most enemies (their offensive stat growths are actually really good).
The problem is they can only reliably kill one unit per round. This isn't a problem in normal mode because you have more deployment slots and fewer enemies, but just doesn't cut it in Hector Hard Mode.
This was a very agreeable tier list, and honestly it's pretty close to what I'd ranked for a blind Hector Hard mode too, give or take some arguments on how much availability (vs. average performance after recruitment) matters.
The starkest disagreement for me is that all the Lyn characters aside from Florina should probably drop a bit, maybe even a tier each. Lyn's combat without playing her mode is basically at the level of the archers (more potential, but harder to use), and while Kent and Sain have very useful utility, their combat drops to such an extent that even Florina (along with her better utility) probably has more combat potential, particularly against mages. They're at best the very bottom of A tier in my opinion, more likely the top of B given that Heath might be a better unit overall. Their early-mid game transport is *very* good, but they drop in a way other A units don't when you start getting multiple other transport units, and they require a lot of early investment to make them combat ready.
I also feel Raven got shafted slightly. He's no Rutger, but his mid game is still really wonderful at a time when many units are still coming into their own, and he's still good until near the end once he promotes. And if cost is no issue Farina feels like she could make a case for low A/high B tier. Availability debates and how much that should hurt her are tricky, but she's in the running for most useful unit in Cog of Destiny as one of the safest and fastest ways to fight the Valkyries, and has good combat and utility everywhere else. She feels at least comparable to Heath for me, better for the time she's around, even if around for less time.
Enjoyed the list though. It's hard to hash these lists out, and even then there's still a lot of reliance on gut feelings, no matter how well defined you make the rules for these tiers.
Congratulation on 20k subs
Congrats on 20k... Oh wait you have 65k now XD
Congrats on going over 20k!
listening to you two talking and occasionally argue about units for an hour and a half is so entertaining
Fire Emblem : Mekkah no Ken
Mekkah no mangs*
In my last playthrough Lucius was my Fortify user and he got killed in the first part of endgame via a berserked Fiona. That meant that I couldn't really heal my units against the final Boss. But thankfully I had Heath with max strengh and speed + Fillas might which was just enough with the others who can damage the Fire Dragon to kill it
I disagree with Rath's placement. You guys were constantly putting mounted units in high tiers and even praising Florina for being able to pick up 16 con units like Hawkeye, well Rath can do that as well, can't fly but has Canto, 7 move, less terrain penalties, good bases and growths and can actually fight, unlike Florina. Having Florina and Rath two tiers apart is a bit too much of a difference. Rath should be B-tier at least, not in the same tier as Lyn and the fighters.
You guys even pointed out that Rath has all the Bows to himself which means there is very little opportunity cost to using him.
in my HHM playthrough rng disgraced all my characters except raven, he is a literal god
Triple effectivness makes a lot of character so much better, in HHM, Eliwood can reliably one round K.O. lance cavs and sometimes one shot sword cavs if he got a level or two
And Rebecca can take care of the bazillion peg knights that are Hector mode exclusive (IF she can get to them that is)
Congrats on 20K! Two comments on not the tiers themselves, but how the tiering was set up:
1) I def think this system is better for tiering than the last one. The last one was more of an Elo-type rankings than actual tiers. So this one is much better.
2) Personally, I think FE7 is the easiest game to tier, simply because each of your run are ranked. That makes the criteria of tiering dead obvious to me. Basically, tier the unit basically based on this question: Who's going to get you an A or S rank in each mode? Obviously, HHM deserve the strongest weight in this debate, as standards are much greater to get that rank. Personally, I feel any other approach to the tiering is sub-optimal, since the game specifically sets up a way for you to grade your own runs.
As for the actual tiers themselves, I think there needs to be a "niche" tier added for Merlinus, Ninian/Nils and Athos. They are so unique, I couldn't find a tier for any of them, and I wouldn't consider them necessarily better or worse than other tiers. Also, I added some extra tiers: A and A- to separate that top bunch (maybe even bump up some better B units, which I did), and switching D to D+ because I don't think they are any bad units in this particular Fire Emblem game. Everybody has a use and can be useful in a positive manner, even in ranked HHM runs!
Now looking my tiering compared the Mekkkangs tiers, I have the biggest differences:
1) Canas much higher (I actually have him as MVP-level with Marcus, for reasons far beyond Luna... but I mentioned all that in the Canas WAIFU video comments. Come to think of it, I probably put Canas that high about the niche combat usefulness is reminiscent to niche combat usefulness illustrated in Kaga games. For example, I use Canas' Nosferatu akin to Nanna's Earth Sword in Thracia 776. Perhaps if FE7 wasn't so basic in this particular dynamic, Canas would be more run-of-the-mill in my playthroughs.)
2) Pent, Hawkeye and Harken are in distinctly different A-tier units than the rest. They are basically mid-game crutches/binkies. Other A or A- units like the mounts, Raven and so on are sturdy throughout the game, but they are never the crutches that these three can be in major pinches. Not just the life/death kind, but the ranking kind.
3) Renault down to D+. Ghast covered the low magic in his support science video, and while I think that's awesome character background, using Renault as a staff bot is totally useless when I easily can get Pent/Priscilla to A staves (or just use Athos).
4) Farina down to C. Money reasons, plus she's no Fiora or even Florina in my book. Fiora, Heath and Florina makes for enough fliers in my book. But she is useful if used.
5) Rath up to B. I'll admit I'm a sucker for a quick reliable doubling damage, so I'm more pro-bows than most skilled GBA-FE players. Add in the mount and the promotion, and I find Rath quite reliable up until the final chapter.
6) Florina down to B. I absolutely must penalize her for how much of a combat liability she is early in the game. Flying utility is great, but not THAT great. If she is potentially trivialized, I can't put her in A or even A-. She's capped at B, although the most skilled tactician can get A-level use out of her. If that makes sense.
7) This is my most controversial one... Serra down to C. Honestly, this is related to a major nitpick I have with staff experience in GBA-FE. She starts at 2 Magic and takes a while to level up (re: 10 turns using heal). Mends are too costly when considering it gives only one more unit EXP. She has less movement than Priscilla. Oh, and it takes her to Level 9 on average to equal the magic that Priscilla has when joining. As a result, she isn't very viable in combat with her magic once promoted. (Same goes with Priscilla TBH, especially as I'm hard-pressed to wait so long to promote, considering EXP abuse with staves saps my fund in a ranked run.) Finally, by the time mid-game comes and as many as four promoted magic users gain the opportunity to heal, Serra is totally expendable IMO. I don't follow the "one unit type" pitfall, but I seriously have 4-5 better options than Serra for the second half of the game. So... she's average overall. Potentially very useful, but easily benchable. And your value is 0 if you're benched. So C it is.
All said, these differences come down to personal playing style. So this list is strong and enjoyable to watch. I didn't fault any major faults in the explanations, save for the Mangs thing about Raven and enemy crits. Sorry, but FE let's players seriously need to stop with being scared by 1,2 or 3pct crits. Mathematically speaking, the fear is not remotely warranted. If we're talking good efficient tactics, I am NOT changing my plans to avoid such a low crit. If I take the L, then it's just unlikely bad luck, and I'll restart. Even if lose an hour of gameplay. I'd rather enjoy better success the other 97 percent of the time. Good work, gents.
I was hoping to see this after your negative growths run glad to see it's finally here.
I love how at 1:01:19 in the bottom left mekkah has a 38% chance to hit and a 6% chance to crit and he somehow lands the crit
Epic
I know I'm like 2 years late on this but I'm glad to see Lowen above Said and Kent he was always my favorite!
ive always found rath to be pretty decent
Only positions I would argue are Raven > Canas, Eliwood > Lyn (although this is hard because while Eliwood has earlygame utility, Lyn doubles from the get-go and Mani Katti utility is helpful in the next map), Bartre for D tier right above Rebecca, and Wil > Wallace, but otherwise this is a very solid HHM tier list. Makes me remember the Rate the Unit threads on SF from way back when, and man, what clusterfucks they were.
Honestly, Guy is a decent unit, he is oddly bulky thanks to his big hp growth (well bulky as a swordmaster can be)
He is maybe not the best but I like using him x) (and mine had decent strength)
One of my favorite pieces of Fire emblem co tent ever. Wish you guys still did stuff together, wish we got a fe6 and 8 list!
Same 😔
Same dude, they were fun together
Yeah definitely, they were such a good pairing. Mekkah's cohosts since have absolutely sucked, usually don't bother watching his new stuff now.
good to see lowen get some shine.
but raven in b tier?behind canas?
Canas joins one level till promotion compared to Ravens 5, 1-2 range at base for Canas compared to ravens 1 range lock at base, Staffs on Promo for Canas. Raven is good but Canas is quite clearly better. Edit: Canas joins at level 8 so it's 2 levels, but he is still closer to promo than Raven.
@@geenobe9941 Canas isn't better than Raven.Gaining staffs upon promotion isn't that impressive considering that they come in E level,he can't even use a mend staff.1-2 isn't that much of a issue since the only unit who can overpower enemies with easy at 1-2 is Marcus,Raven can get closer to promotion in chapter 16x,since that chapter is filled with pirates.Even without promotion,Raven is still a potent unit,he can overpower most enemies in just one turn and his weakness are extremely easy to fix,Canas can't overpower units as easily as Raven,especially since he gets slow down by even a flux tome.Even a promoted(level 10) Canas doesn't have bases on par with Raven(especially with hard mode bonus).
I spend 5-10 turns in the arena with Raven. Then he's right near promotion after the pirate ship and ready to tear the Dread Isle apart with his new hand axes.
Very good tier list congrats on 20,000 subs I would only make a few adjustments personally the only thing I majorly disagree with is that Marcus should be in the top by himself I think ninian and nils should be there with him he’s definitely the best but I don’t think he’s so good that he should be by himself
I’m not going to defend using Wil. I just did it for the hell of it. I got lucky, and he ended up outpacing most of my units. Somehow.
I used Rebecca once and she turned out really good. I must have gotten really lucky with her growths.
Oh my fav Fe tubers
Same. It would be awesome if they return to make videos together.
I have a nasty habit of getting attached to bad characters like Rebecca and using them every playthrough no matter what, and then benching people like Lowen forever because i just don’t enjoy their presence
I played fe7 normal mode for the first time but holy shit my rebecca turned out so so good if you can grind her to level 20 before promote. As a level 1 sniper she has 20 str, and like 21 skill and speed or smth. She literally saved me against Vaida, managing to crit Vaida thanks to her support with Raven and save my entire team (alongside Hawkeye).
I think it would be fun to watch a FE run ( i'm biased on 7 but whatever work) where you play in hard with low tier :)