Morse Carbine: If the Army Says No, Sell it Commercially!
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- George Morse was one of the most significant American inventors in the development of modern ammunition. In 1856 he received a patent for the first completely self-contained brass cartridge, and a breechloading firearm to use it. Morse’s cartridge was made of several parts, a solid brass case head with a case body made of a piece of flat brass rolled into a cylinder and soldered down its seam, and then soldered to the case head. At the base, a standard percussion cap was seated and sealed in place with a rubber washer.
Morse entered his rifle in a US military trial in 1857, where is did very well but ultimately lost out to the Burnside carbine. In order to generate some cash flow while pursuing a contact to convert military muzzleloaders to his breechloading system, Morse contracted with the unmaking company of Muzzy & Co to make 100 of his guns for commercial sale. These were marketed as cased sets with one receiver and a carbine barrel, a rifle barrel, and a shotgun barrel (calibers varied, .48-.54 for the rifled barrels and 12 or 16 gauge for the shotgun barrel). The price for these sets was $125, quite a lot of money in 1857. The guns did not sell well, much to Morse’s dismay.
However, he was able to get a contract with the US military for a $5 royalty on each of 2000 guns they would convert to Morse’s system. This work had stalled by 1860, when it was moved to the Harper’s Ferry arsenal. No long after that, the Civil War would erupt, and needless to say the conversion project ended with the sacking of the arsenal. Morse would side with the Confederacy, and pursue production of his rifles in the South, which is the subject for a separate video…
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The Morse was examined in Britain in 1858 and deemed to be too complicated. British records show a man named Broadwell attempting to flog it... but in later years Broadwell was in trouble for stealing patents. Wonder if Morse knew about any of this.
He attempted to "flog it"? The only meaning of that phrase that I'm aware of is corporal punishment, but I assume Broadwell did not take a cat o' nine tails to the Morse carbine?
@@drogomuircastle7175 The British opted for the Snider in 1865/6... The Terry was on experimental issue when the Morse was submitted by Broadwell (1858), but both were rejected in favour of the Westley Richards.
@@Devin_Stromgren it means to sell something, usually quickly or cheaply. Sometimes it can imply immorally.
"A small conflict in 1860." AKA "Civil War were declared."
It actually wasn't declared. A declaration of war would have required an act of Congress, but the southern states probably weren't going to agree to declare war on themselves.
Legally, it wasn't a war but an "insurrection" because the US Government would implicitly admit that there is an opposing government...
@@axelpatrickb.pingol3228 @bloodshotgunpowder Hybris was referring to running joke with the "war were declared" saying...
The only good confederate is a dead one.
🤨 I'm going to temporarily leave the historical realm, and visit the philosophical realm instead.... Why do we call it the "Civil" war?? Shouldn't we refer to it as the "UN-civil war"? Since when does "CIVIL" society decide to go to war with one another?
🤔How often do you see massive numbers of people living within a happy, content, CIVIL society, look at one another and say things like, "good day Roger! I appreciate you lending me your tools last week. I've bought you a new tool box to store them in. Also, Marge asked me to drop off this cherry pie for you & your family. Oh, and by the way, I've abruptly decided to declare war on you! I am going to bayonet you now"! 😁
1850 multi cal. take down carbine...wow
jok mars i believe not multi cal. but just 3 different barrel types
well even so, the fact it can accept shotshells is a nice feature.
Edit: Although now that i'm thinking on it that most definitely means it accepts different calibers, just not between the rifle and carbine model, those 2 would just make for a longer/shorter barrel obviously.
Was definitely ahead of it's time.
I do believe the title of "Most Steampunk Gun Ever" has just been usurped!
@@roguetorino I was thinking the same thing. I can see how it would be a "Gentleman's Rifle".
I may be a year late, but after seeing a lot of these old and weird firearms, I'm starting to want to get into the business of making recreations of them just for operations demonstration.
I think it'd be really cool for Ian to be able to shoot a lot of these guns that no one will ever shoot anymore.
Damn, that gun is pretty. If Pedersoli wants to make them in 45 Colt I would buy it in a heartbeat.
That would definitely be a "shut up and take my money" gun, such an elegant design.
Agreed! Seems to me you could easily make them in a number of other calibers too, at least up to, say, 30-30 in pressure?
...note to self, look up pressure curves for 45 LC, 45-70, and 30-30.
Problem is Pedersoli make only ugly ass guns like their new underhammer pistol. So many cool guns around and they just wont make them.
The action opens just like the top cover on a stapler!
...dammit, now I want one in Swingline Red!
There is an excellent, recently published, book on the subject and much more:
“The Best Gun in the World: George Woodward Morse and the South Carolina State Military Works” by Robert S. Seigler
Oddly, it’s not doing very well; I’ve seen it for as little as $10(!) on the internet… Even at regular price it’s well worth the money and I hope Ian will help to spread the word with a review at some point.
nice try Robert you're not fooling anyone
Huh. If you adjust for inflation, the price estimate on this gun shows that it's value really hasn't changed very much in the last 160 years.
$125 is about $3600 nowadays. Expensive, but I've seen people buying $10,000 target rifles like it's no big deal. Back in 1850, not only there were far less people around, the average income was also far lower.
But what ultimately killed this gun was that complicated cartridge.
Thauã Aguirre yes the income was lower. But ratios stayed relatively the same with inflation taken into account.
Except that the dollar isn't backed by anything at all now.
@@ThZuao my at308 cost me more than that so not a ridiculous price.
What's it in fiscal beers?
I have to say the over all shape/lines/profile of this rifle is absoloutly beautiful. Like a Stingray or somth'n lol
Are we sure this guy didn't get sent back in time somehow?
@@AltereggoLol1 something something nitroglycerin medication for lee
Guns are a difficult subject. But I really appreciate the way that Ian covers them. I love technology and the history of technology. He presents it in such a professional way that is easy to follow, entertaining, and in depth. What I really appreciate is how apolitical it is. It's not pushing an agenda either way, it just advocates learning history and enjoying these machines in a safe way.
This is exactly why I'm such a fan of Forgotten Weapons (and InRange).
u said it perfectly my friend :)
Yes, a rolled brass tubed soldered along its seam and then soldered to a brass case head is not simple and requires a lot of manual labor. But I submit to you that a modern brass case is even less simple. It takes multiple operations to form a finished brass case from a planchet of brass. It is all done by machines and requires essentially no manual labor, but I believe it takes a lot more operations by the machines to produce the finished product. The biggest problem I see with the Morse cartridge is the solder seam between the cartridge body and the case head. The sides of the case body are supported by the chamber walls, but the reaction force of the expanding gas is along the shear axis of the connection between the case head and the wall of the cartridge. Yes, the case head is supported by the breech face, but just a small amount of excess headspace would allow displacement at the case head seam and provide a path for gas to escape. Perhaps the Morse cartridge is not as deficient as it seems at first blush.
Ian, for such an old and considered as a revolutionary gun, it would be very
interesting to show us the inside of the barrel, to see the type of rifling of that era.
You could do it easily in this case, by using a torch as you do in some other cases,
since you took the barrel in hand.
Thanks a lot for all this good stuff you show us.
1:14
"You then used a, uh, rubber"
Ian McCollum, 2019
Hmm. I wonder if he "used a, uh, rubber" when he was with Chauchat.
kinda sounded like, “You then used a.. a rubber” to me dog
Indian rubber from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ficus_elastica an early type of rubber / latex.
Talk about picking the wrong side. 170,000 rifles with his action with him getting $5 Dollars each. $850,000 Dollars. Instead he joined the South. 0 Dollars.
Been better off if the South Won though
Anyone that is a southern sympathizer should be hanged .
Seriously is there anything about guns that Ian dosen't know? He knows absolutely every little damn thing about every gun ever made in every country!
That is a slick little carbine. Thanks for sharing this find.
I'm kinda surprised it has mechanical problems, considering how nice the finish on the metal components appears to be (for its age).
@Cakeyflour It definitely appears to be well made. But who knows what has been done to it/who has messed with it over the past 162 years!
@@crazyfvck Looks like its been refinished to me as there is clearly pitting but the color is consistant
Older alloys for stuff kinda sucked. They didn't have the technology to make very consistent metals, so almost everything would be way out of spec, and the design had to accommodate that.
So informative I really like the way you explain everything's keep up the good work bro
It sold at auction for $157.37 in 1857 USD
So slick! This thing seems way ahead of its time
That bottom cover would be to stop the reloadable cartridge dropping, I would imagine you would want to retain them
I think that all these rare and broken/missing-piece guns should come with Mark Novak's business card when sold. No doubt he could get them all working.
Lots of people could get them working if they are safe to do so.
@@cardiffpicker1 Agreed, but Mark holds a special place in our -heart- star chamber
Amazing. Keep up the great work.
Adolph Furrer looking at this: "Very nice... Very nice"
Very interesting carbine Ian an thanks for showing it Sir
Nice. The receiver shape reminds me of the Hopkins & Allen underhammer muzzle-loading rifles.
I find it very odd that you mention Harper's Ferry shut down because "confederates looted it" and not, you know, because the retreating Union soldiers who'd been purposefully deployed to the armory to burn it to the ground if the war actually kicked off burned all of it that they could to the ground. It's a little thing known as the burning of harper's ferry.
Wierd to see it misrepresented by Ian...
Morse was an engineering genius. Great video
Very cool. Would have been easy to integrate a detachable box magazine into this system.
That invention was at least 30 years later.
I watch too damn many of these he says "burnside carbine" and i know exactly what he means lmao
Suing the Feds after having sided with the Confederacy - I don't know if the guy was nuts or had very large balls.
Forget the simplified Sten. THAT thing is steampunk as hell.
Very elegant looking carbine 👌
Damn, I'm loving that logic in the video's title.
$125 in 1857 is roughly worth $3750 in 2021
Hey Ian I just bought a lot of 5 rifles from a friend and I'm receiving them this Saturday, 2 Spanish mausers believes to be from the Spanish civil war, a arisaka with the crisanthanum and antiaircraft sight in tac, a pre m39 finish mosin, and a Carl Gustav mauser with a factory muzzle device made in 1912. If I send you some pics and a donation could you give me some info on them?
Shout out to whoever edits these videos, the thumbnail has the different number of stars.
Weren't brass cases fitted with percussion caps used in shotguns up to the smokeless powder era?
And, in fact, don't many modern muzzleloaders use shotgun primers in place of percussion caps? I like the symmetry.
When you get the chance could you do a video on a feather industries at-22?
Nice rifle and innovative design.
First thing I noticed was the goose head, complete with one of the eyes.
Thanks....
Really lovely lines and shape to it, almost looks like a ladies or childs rifle of the time.
The patent date on this Morse carbine appears to be in error. The only firearm U.S. patent I could find to George Morse in 1856 had an issue date of October 28, 1856.
since you've done a video on the MG 17, could you do a video on the Russian ShKAS 7.62mm MG that was also used in aircraft
George Morse: I want $5 for every centerfire gun made by the US.
US: For making arms for the Confederacy to be used against the US, you are hereby ordered to pay $100 for every gun made to be used against the US.
George Morse: ...
he looks like Lenin with more hair lmao
"a little conflict that was the Civil War"... "War were declared" Ohh wait wrong channel...
Really innovative gun
Damn that thing has aged wonderfully. Keep them clean and they will last
Ok, I want to see this on the modern reproduction market! Maybe I need to look into starting a company... could make these, Merwyn & Hulbert revolvers, maybe Evans carbines... In a variety of more modern calibers. Should at least be easy to convert this system to, say, 30-30...
Edit: d'oh. Even easier and more practical (especially for marketing to the Cowboy Action crowd), .45 Colt.
Has anyone's notification bell also suspiciously been turned off recently?
That is a very attractive firearm.
God damn, that's a toggle-lock single-shot carbine.
Beautiful gun
It seems how interestingly close to a toggle lock semiautomatic shotgun and cartridge gun. Still a long way away from a tube mag and even further till the gas operated cycling system. But how cool it would be to see exactly that
Nice compact weapon.
Looks weird to me, i'm not convinced on that shape.
So the Morse carbine had a fully contained metal cartridge? When was it first used?
Please do a video on the Beretta ARX-160
Ian Morse's carbine was a worry interesting firearm maybe a little to ahead of it's time a friend of mine has one and I've always longed to fire it but I like old weird guns unfortunately he won't let me unless I can replace it if damaged
size of the universe
He also evidently invented steampunk styling!
technological convergence in motion
I have clicked Subscribe and Bell Notification - so why am i not getting notifications for this?
Oh wait ... dont tell me!
Modern bolthead in a 1850's rifle 😎
Nice Gun...An ideal to Thanks much...!
its like a luger that has to be mechanicly operated instead of recoil, i wonder if georg ever saw one of these
Liked for correct pronunciation of "Worcester".
hi ian, could there be a relation between tiny sights and bad eyes / no glasses. because if you have bad eyes and look through a tiny hole in a paper for example you can see clear. just a thought....
Am curious if you would ever do a Future Forgoten Weapons. An episode where you found a rifle or handgun that you think will be totaly forgot in 5 years time.
No handgun will be totally forgotten in 5 years, even the ones that should be
I do not really care about the disassembly part of your videos, I’m here for the historical part. Amazing job!
Toggle lock? significantly predating Maxim, Borchardt, Luger and Pederson, even if it was only a single-shot. Very crafty!
The 1860 Henry also used a toggle lock.
i would see about getting it in working order.
So this holds only one cartridge at a time?
Yes it is a single shot.
Correct, most rifles of the era were single-shot breech loaders. In fact even when the Spencer and Henry repeating (see: lever action) rifles were introduced which had absolutely massive capacities. The Henry for example was known as "That damn Yankee gun you loaded on Sunday and shot all week" carrying an astonishing 15 rounds in the magazine + 1 chambered and ready to fire.
Most rifles of the era were muzzle-loaders (In short: muskets) or breech-loading cartridge-based (Similar to this weapon) and the US army took one look at the lever action and basically said "We don't like it". It was far too complicated compared to other weapons already in arsenal and keeping them stocked in enough ammunition to make them worthwhile was more or less deemed too difficult or expensive to re-arm entire regiments (40 dollars a rifle, about $1,200 a piece today, not to mention having to stock 15 times more ammunition at minimum).
That said, raiding parties, scouts and skirmishing elements were known to have those among their number save their own money up to buy one for themselves.
Rixoli I love that nickname for the Henry.
The phrase was coined by General John Mosby, AKA "The Gray Ghost", known for his cavalry regiment (also nicknamed "Mosby's Rangers" or "Mosby's Raiders") known for rolling in, grabbing everything not nailed down and just as quickly disappearing across the countryside to blend in with civilians.
inspiration for the toggle lock on the lugar ?
$125 in 1857 is about $3,600 in today's money.
I'll never understand how these videos have dislikes..
We have this rifle with three different barrels and original case in Confederate Museum Greenville s.c. along with 3 morse rifles...
Come on , Ian, it's 'war were declared'
30 to 40 years later they had center fire machine guns in the military and 25 years later from this the military had center fire everywhere
The pace at which we're refining machinery (both for war and elsewhere) is absolutely mindboggling when you look at it from a 'rate of progression' isn't it?
@@Rixoli you can see it in cars and planes as well, it's amazing
@@Darth-Nihilus1 44 years from the Wright Flyer to the Bell X-1. If firearms had developed at the same speed, the Mongol hordes would have had assault rifles.
@@jic1 66 years after the first powered flight a man walked on the surface of the moon. Last 150 years has seen more advancement than previous 3000 or so years combined. Just imagine what happens in next 44 or 66 years if our FIAT economy doesn't collapse.
I wish you would do a video on a star Modelo a pistol.
Imagine this weapon in Huntshowdown (the game)
This is the story of kel tec basically.
another good vid. from the weapon Yoda
Hey... where the f are my royalties for this video sir??!?! Lol. Jk wonder if I'm related at all to the this Morse.
This gun.... but the cartridge Flys out the top it has a long integrated box magazine and a better charging handle... oh and use modern day bullets to make a fairly indestructible gun.....
Sounds like you want a completely different gun than what this one is, so not this gun at all.
Good job pronouncing WOOSTAH correctly!
It look's like,there are Union jaks in the screws ...
Any relation to Samuel Morse?
Purdy!
Link to Confederate Rifle:
ruclips.net/video/nyGIqwaBzUw/видео.html
Ian “At any Rate” Macculem
How did morse really think it was a good idea to try and sell his guns to the south? They look fairly complicated for the 1860s and the south just didn't have the industrial capacity that the north did, I'm not sure that having a top of the line rifle was that much of a priority for the CSA.
Nice companion video to the earlier confederate carbine, neat idea but a bit too ambitious
Hum. No firing pin and the trigger doesn't work. Is that a California consignment gun?
I live in Baton Rouge 😁
"Everything old is new again"
Guns are 🔫 great fun
I read that worse carbine...