Digging the Star Wars reference in the thumb nail didn't want you to feel it wasn't noticed. I've learned more about Horololgy from your channel that has really help me navigate what's more important about a watch than the way it looks or the hype .
Another fascinating and educational video! I continue to learn more about this hobby from you, then from anywhere or anyone else. Thank you as always Bill.
Hey Bruce, let's see if we can stir up a discussion about constant force in tomorrow's live stream. Those streams are like herding cats, but maybe it's worth a try. Kindest regards, Bill
Dear Bill: I join with others in applauding you for your cogent explanation of the Remontoir d’egalite. The elegance of the Remontoir as a micro-mechanical solution to the loss of torque as the mainspring unwinds is amazing. The multilateral visioneering of historic horology innovators in a pre-CAD, pre-calculator, pre-computer, pre-3D printing world is hard to comprehend. To look at a movement and to see it not as a mass of parts but as the logical interplay of multiple energy transfer points and energy control points is astounding to those of us who have failed to master even one of the several industrial arts. The question that you raised at the end of the video, namely, at what point does the pursuit of perfection in mechanical movements (how good is good enough?) become too rarified and costly, is an interesting one. Special purpose “closer to perfection” boosters like the tourbillon and the Remontoir are indeed interesting but their “need” is definitely in the eye of the beholder. Obviously, we are all the beneficiaries of those who do not stop at “good enough” and continue to pursue as much perfection as is possible. Given quartz technology and nuclear clock technology, conventional mechanical watch and clock technology no longer represents the cutting edge that it did in the days of John Harrison but it still celebrates a tradition of human craftsmanship and human interaction with the mechanical that began to absent itself by the time that industrial watch production began taking off circa 1860.
Howard, I doubt that was your intention, but you somehow summarized everything important about why we collect mechanical watches! Kindest regards, Bill
I know that the Remontoir is close to completley useless, but that does not matter - I love it. In the 1890 there was a big clock at Lange & Söhne with a Remontoir and the watchmakers found out, that with the Remontoir mechanism the clock needs 45 percent more power which is not realy positive. At the moment I am making a table clock with a remontoir an I hope I can finish it before the end of the year. I cant wait to see if it realy improves timekeeping in a significant form. PS: Great Video!
Yes, I guess the remontoir d'Egalité doesn't add a lot to flattening out the power curve, but like you say, Bernhard, 'Who cares' ... it works some, and that's what counts. [You want accuracy...get a $20 quartz...]. Lange & Söhne's big Remontoir sounds like something I'd like to see. Take care, Bill
Hey DG B, glad you liked it. How in the world that watchmakers like F.P. Journe, Marco Lang and the others make a remontoir d'Egalité is way over my pay grade ... but the concept is clear enough. It has an almost Rube Goldberg character to it ... complications to smooth out time. Kindest regards, Bill
I understand the remontoir was not quite as unneccessary with early forms of escapement, that were much more sensitive to changes in the drive force, and before the use of S-curve springs.
Romain Gauthier's speech at the horological society of new york was really insightful concerning the challenges of one constant force concept (chain and fusee).
Hi Diggert! I would have liked to have seen that one (and several others). Since they have their talks in the evening, I have to stay over, and hotels in the City are not 'economical'. After the talks, I like to chat with other collectors into the wee hours of the morning in a nearby ... tavern...I should be getting better heads up notices now that I'm a member. Cheers, Bill
Now if I had any sense I would have known that. I will check that out! From Germany-just returned from a visit to Rolf Lang in Dresden! Not that far! Thanks, Bill
Was it FP Journe who said, the ideal state for a mechanical eatch is that, if it's ahead/behind by x seconds/day, it is consistently ahead/behind by that same amount? Anyway, the constant force mechanism is intriguing indeed. And expensive. Aside from FP Journe, Lange has done a few models with it, and their Pour Le Merite models have the fusee and chain.
Hi Gilberto, you know, that sounds like FPJ. I found some remontoirs and fuseé and chain watches that are very affordable-old pocket watches on Ebay. Since I cannot afford an A. Lange & Söhne f&c ... let along an FPJ remontoir...I've been looking at inexpensive pocket watches of your with clean movements ... a case for the Pretentious Watchmakers! Cheers, Bill
Well Forbin Colossus, I know you don't like to admit it, but you're a connoisseur of fine watches if I've ever met one. Don't deny it...everyone knows it. Cheers, Bill
watchmaking is basically steam-punk ... daydreaming about solving problems we'd still have if technology hadn't left the mechanical realm. the features that stand out, imo, are: 1, what *might* have been achieved in ancient greece with a bit more focus on scientific literacy; and 2, the fact that an interesting problem doesn't stop being interesting just because it doesn't need solving anymore. that these are the dreams that someone without a lot of technical training might have seems to explain the continuing obsession with mechanical watches i suspect, though, that some of the solutions horologists are seeking are analogs of designs electrical engineers invented years ago. issues like "how do i harvest smooth power from a large but inconsistent energy source without throwing away the excess as friction" are bread-and-butter skills in electronic design. tbf, an escapement looks very electronic (quadrature plus a resonant circuit) ... but my nagging suspicion is that a remontoir should look more like a switched-mode power supply
You know 5naxalotl, you either get the appreciation of mechanical watches or you don't. Not taken from the EE field ... you must know mechanical watches preceded EE solutions. You're trying to understand something with EE, that's not EE. See if you can back up a century and look at the math and physics of horology. You'll learn about what the appreciation is. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@watchartsci and you must know that proper mechanical solutions respect physics. and that means an EE solution can be a perfectly good analog for a mechanical problem. do you know that electrical engineers study mechanical systems that are exact analogs of electrical circuits, or do you just enjoy sounding like you understand why the field has nothing to offer? you talk like horologists have perfected their solutions, at the same time as acknowledging that remontoirs lose unacceptable amounts of energy. your snippy response hasn't stopped me from wondering whether banging a moving gear train to an abrupt halt is optimal
@@5naxalotl It's understandable that you would want to take something you do know and apply it to something you do not. If you were involved in quilting, it would not make quilting a correct analogy, even though you may like and understand how to quilt. I have a great respect for EE as at one time I had to make a physical interface between a robot and computer, and then write microcode from binary, to hexadecimal machine language, to assembly and then two higher-level languages. However, I did not try to take my understanding of coding as a substitute for learning enough EE to correctly connect the wiring between the ports on three different computers with 3 different I/O ports to the microprocessor in the robot. I suggest that before you try and bully your "expertise" in EE as a substitute for knowledge of horology, you learn something about watchmaking. Pick up a copy of George Daniels' "Watchmaking" and read it. Then, I'd also suggest you buy an inexpensive movement (like a Seagull ST 36xx clone of the an ETA 6497/8) disassemble it and then reassemble it. (Here's a link: calibercorner.com/eta-unitas-caliber-6497-6498-assembly-disassembly/ ). If after doing that, then we can talk, but don't try and pawn-off supposed expertise in EE as a substitute for learning about mechanical watchmaking. What sounded "snippy" to you is better described as "fed up" with posers who try and push their arrogance in one area onto horology. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Hey NoIdea, great to hear from you! I'm glad to learn you were able to get something from this video. It's always been a topic of interest to me ... but not always to others who collect mechanical watches ... and I only touched on the surface. Another remontoir can be found in the Jaeger-LeCoultre True Seconds. A remontoir is used for the 'jumping seconds' (true seconds), but not part of the main gear train. Now that may be an [almost] affordable way I can get my mitts on a remontoir! Cheers, Bill
@@watchartsci Wasnt there a mechanism, basically looking like a slightly modified Vacheron (Maltese) cross that allowed the mainspring only to be wound to ca. 80% ? Forgot the name. Think i saw it in some Glashütte brand.
Yes, NoIdea! You're right. Since I did the work in locating the information about the remontoir d'egalité-it's your turn to run down the Maltese cross mechanism! (By the way that Vacheron Constantin Maltese cross really was not fashioned after a similarly shaped gear as VC's little 'history' would like us to believe. Rather, like the Calatrava cross of Patek Philippe, it has its roots in the flag of the Huguenots- check out this video I did on how a massacre helped Switzerland become the center for European watchmaking: ruclips.net/video/J6X0yu5wTes/видео.html ) Kindest regards, Bill
@@watchartsci AFAIR the Calatrava cross was, before it got adopted by the Maltese order, the sign of one of the crusades first soldier/priest orders. Maybe i got that wrong. But i am pretty sure that was what i was told in Malta. Ill check out the mechanism :) Well, and so many of the Huogenots went exactly where the Swiss watch industry is (now) located, they were not much loved in the german speaking parts of Switzerland. So no IWCs for them :) Ha, got it, the Geneva drive. Thanks for reminding me!
Watched the Hugenotten vid, mostly agree. But if the the Calatrava/Malta cross and the Fleur de Lis were used in protestant imagery it still is cultural appropriation as these 2 symbols are truly rooted in catholiscism. Lets not forget that one of the main plans of Calvin, Zwingli, Knox etc. was the destruction of pretty things, idoltry, Bilderstürmen in german. It also was in a way 'anti art'. So you are completly right that there was a tendency to conceal art in things with some everyday use. i stop rambling. have fun.
Absolutely, O Bud! The 1941 Grônefeld is a remontoire I need to learn more about. The least expensive one, though, is $52,000 ... yikes! Kindest regards Bill
Interesting stuff as always Bill. Really enjoy your videos. Have you done any videos on basic recommended watch tools and how to use them for beginners like myself? Thanks.
Hi Carolina, yes...but they're scattered over about 3 or 4 years of videos I've done. Here's one on Timegrapher ( ruclips.net/video/rIyLhw18toI/видео.html ) but I need to do a video on basic toolsets for beginners. Thank you for the idea-I'll do it. Kindest regards, Bill
Many thanks Bill. I'll check them out. Learning a lot from you. I know you're not a gun guy, but if you like hand crafted finishing...(Holland & Holland) ruclips.net/video/RLxDRb7yWnw/видео.html Best to you and the wife, Richard
Smokey, be sure to see this Friday's video (June 28th) ... it was your request! Funny thing about gun metal-F.P. Journe has a collection of gun metal watches, including Holland & and Holland. www.fpjourne.com/en/event/events/fpjourne-and-holland-holland-partnership-distinction-bringing-exclusive-limited Cheers, Bill
Hello! I don't think you mentioned the reason for a constant force escapement: it's due to the isochronism defect of the balance-hairspring oscillator.
@@watchartsci Hello again! I was refering to "isochronism defect," i.e., that the balance-hairspring frequency (daily rate) changes when its amplitude decreases. To have a more steady daily rate, you need to keep the amplitude relatively constant, and that's the reason to use a constant force escapement. In theory, the hairspring-balance wheel has isochronism, i.e., the frequency is independent of amplitude, so independent of the torque transmitted by the escapement. In practice, this is not possible, e.g., because the center of the spring isn't exactly at its geometrical center.
Digging the Star Wars reference in the thumb nail didn't want you to feel it wasn't noticed. I've learned more about Horololgy from your channel that has really help me navigate what's more important about a watch than the way it looks or the hype .
Thanks Mark, and as always, it's my pleasure! Cheers, Bill
Another fascinating and educational video! I continue to learn more about this hobby from you, then from anywhere or anyone else. Thank you as always Bill.
Hey Bruce, let's see if we can stir up a discussion about constant force in tomorrow's live stream. Those streams are like herding cats, but maybe it's worth a try. Kindest regards, Bill
Agreed! I look forward to it Bill.
Dear Bill: I join with others in applauding you for your cogent explanation of the Remontoir d’egalite. The elegance of the Remontoir as a micro-mechanical solution to the loss of torque as the mainspring unwinds is amazing. The multilateral visioneering of historic horology innovators in a pre-CAD, pre-calculator, pre-computer, pre-3D printing world is hard to comprehend. To look at a movement and to see it not as a mass of parts but as the logical interplay of multiple energy transfer points and energy control points is astounding to those of us who have failed to master even one of the several industrial arts. The question that you raised at the end of the video, namely, at what point does the pursuit of perfection in mechanical movements (how good is good enough?) become too rarified and costly, is an interesting one. Special purpose “closer to perfection” boosters like the tourbillon and the Remontoir are indeed interesting but their “need” is definitely in the eye of the beholder. Obviously, we are all the beneficiaries of those who do not stop at “good enough” and continue to pursue as much perfection as is possible. Given quartz technology and nuclear clock technology, conventional mechanical watch and clock technology no longer represents the cutting edge that it did in the days of John Harrison but it still celebrates a tradition of human craftsmanship and human interaction with the mechanical that began to absent itself by the time that industrial watch production began taking off circa 1860.
Howard, I doubt that was your intention, but you somehow summarized everything important about why we collect mechanical watches! Kindest regards, Bill
Like Forest Gump, I can sometimes say something unintentionally of merit. Watches are like a box of chocolate and all that.
Great show Bill. I learned somethiing new.
Thank you Porsche Maven, it was my pleasure. Bill
I know that the Remontoir is close to completley useless, but that does not matter - I love it. In the 1890 there was a big clock at Lange & Söhne with a Remontoir and the watchmakers found out, that with the Remontoir mechanism the clock needs 45 percent more power which is not realy positive. At the moment I am making a table clock with a remontoir an I hope I can finish it before the end of the year. I cant wait to see if it realy improves timekeeping in a significant form.
PS: Great Video!
Yes, I guess the remontoir d'Egalité doesn't add a lot to flattening out the power curve, but like you say, Bernhard, 'Who cares' ... it works some, and that's what counts. [You want accuracy...get a $20 quartz...]. Lange & Söhne's big Remontoir sounds like something I'd like to see. Take care, Bill
Surprisingly this was the term that i had in mind when i asked about a visual dictionary of watch terms today. Now I understand what it is. Thanks
That is great to hear Stephen because so few collectors really pay much attention to 'constant force.' Take care, Bill
Another great video Bill, thanks for sharing.
Hey Hugues, thanks man! On Saturday's stream let's talk about evening out the force of the mainspring! [Movement geeks welcomed!] Cheers, Bill
Thank you Bill - very educational and well explained.
My pleasure Mooney-I once flew a friend's Mooney ... it was like sitting in a very fast sports car! My plane was a Cardinal. Kindest regards, Bill
Bill, you are the master. The Chronomètre Optimum is a really neat watch. Thanks for this educational vid. Regards.
Hey DG B, glad you liked it. How in the world that watchmakers like F.P. Journe, Marco Lang and the others make a remontoir d'Egalité is way over my pay grade ... but the concept is clear enough. It has an almost Rube Goldberg character to it ... complications to smooth out time. Kindest regards, Bill
I understand the remontoir was not quite as unneccessary with early forms of escapement, that were much more sensitive to changes in the drive force, and before the use of S-curve springs.
I like any complication dedicated to constant force in a mechanical watch. Take care, Bill
Romain Gauthier's speech at the horological society of new york was really insightful concerning the challenges of one constant force concept (chain and fusee).
Hi Diggert! I would have liked to have seen that one (and several others). Since they have their talks in the evening, I have to stay over, and hotels in the City are not 'economical'. After the talks, I like to chat with other collectors into the wee hours of the morning in a nearby ... tavern...I should be getting better heads up notices now that I'm a member. Cheers, Bill
@@watchartsci Oh I would love to show up as well, but from Germany it is quite a trip, haha. Luckily they make the talks available on RUclips.
Now if I had any sense I would have known that. I will check that out! From Germany-just returned from a visit to Rolf Lang in Dresden! Not that far! Thanks, Bill
sounds intersting, thanks
Was it FP Journe who said, the ideal state for a mechanical eatch is that, if it's ahead/behind by x seconds/day, it is consistently ahead/behind by that same amount? Anyway, the constant force mechanism is intriguing indeed. And expensive. Aside from FP Journe, Lange has done a few models with it, and their Pour Le Merite models have the fusee and chain.
Hi Gilberto, you know, that sounds like FPJ. I found some remontoirs and fuseé and chain watches that are very affordable-old pocket watches on Ebay. Since I cannot afford an A. Lange & Söhne f&c ... let along an FPJ remontoir...I've been looking at inexpensive pocket watches of your with clean movements ... a case for the Pretentious Watchmakers! Cheers, Bill
@8:53 "...Connoisseur of mechanics..." by george indeed
Well Forbin Colossus, I know you don't like to admit it, but you're a connoisseur of fine watches if I've ever met one. Don't deny it...everyone knows it. Cheers, Bill
watchmaking is basically steam-punk ... daydreaming about solving problems we'd still have if technology hadn't left the mechanical realm. the features that stand out, imo, are: 1, what *might* have been achieved in ancient greece with a bit more focus on scientific literacy; and 2, the fact that an interesting problem doesn't stop being interesting just because it doesn't need solving anymore. that these are the dreams that someone without a lot of technical training might have seems to explain the continuing obsession with mechanical watches
i suspect, though, that some of the solutions horologists are seeking are analogs of designs electrical engineers invented years ago. issues like "how do i harvest smooth power from a large but inconsistent energy source without throwing away the excess as friction" are bread-and-butter skills in electronic design. tbf, an escapement looks very electronic (quadrature plus a resonant circuit) ... but my nagging suspicion is that a remontoir should look more like a switched-mode power supply
You know 5naxalotl, you either get the appreciation of mechanical watches or you don't. Not taken from the EE field ... you must know mechanical watches preceded EE solutions. You're trying to understand something with EE, that's not EE. See if you can back up a century and look at the math and physics of horology. You'll learn about what the appreciation is. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@watchartsci and you must know that proper mechanical solutions respect physics. and that means an EE solution can be a perfectly good analog for a mechanical problem. do you know that electrical engineers study mechanical systems that are exact analogs of electrical circuits, or do you just enjoy sounding like you understand why the field has nothing to offer? you talk like horologists have perfected their solutions, at the same time as acknowledging that remontoirs lose unacceptable amounts of energy. your snippy response hasn't stopped me from wondering whether banging a moving gear train to an abrupt halt is optimal
@@5naxalotl It's understandable that you would want to take something you do know and apply it to something you do not. If you were involved in quilting, it would not make quilting a correct analogy, even though you may like and understand how to quilt. I have a great respect for EE as at one time I had to make a physical interface between a robot and computer, and then write microcode from binary, to hexadecimal machine language, to assembly and then two higher-level languages. However, I did not try to take my understanding of coding as a substitute for learning enough EE to correctly connect the wiring between the ports on three different computers with 3 different I/O ports to the microprocessor in the robot. I suggest that before you try and bully your "expertise" in EE as a substitute for knowledge of horology, you learn something about watchmaking. Pick up a copy of George Daniels' "Watchmaking" and read it. Then, I'd also suggest you buy an inexpensive movement (like a Seagull ST 36xx clone of the an ETA 6497/8) disassemble it and then reassemble it. (Here's a link: calibercorner.com/eta-unitas-caliber-6497-6498-assembly-disassembly/ ). If after doing that, then we can talk, but don't try and pawn-off supposed expertise in EE as a substitute for learning about mechanical watchmaking. What sounded "snippy" to you is better described as "fed up" with posers who try and push their arrogance in one area onto horology. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Hihi, last week i was researching the Remontoire, now you do a vid on it. thx. have fun times. Good graphics, very good explanation.
Hey NoIdea, great to hear from you! I'm glad to learn you were able to get something from this video. It's always been a topic of interest to me ... but not always to others who collect mechanical watches ... and I only touched on the surface. Another remontoir can be found in the Jaeger-LeCoultre True Seconds. A remontoir is used for the 'jumping seconds' (true seconds), but not part of the main gear train. Now that may be an [almost] affordable way I can get my mitts on a remontoir! Cheers, Bill
@@watchartsci Wasnt there a mechanism, basically looking like a slightly modified Vacheron (Maltese) cross that allowed the mainspring only to be wound to ca. 80% ? Forgot the name. Think i saw it in some Glashütte brand.
Yes, NoIdea! You're right. Since I did the work in locating the information about the remontoir d'egalité-it's your turn to run down the Maltese cross mechanism! (By the way that Vacheron Constantin Maltese cross really was not fashioned after a similarly shaped gear as VC's little 'history' would like us to believe. Rather, like the Calatrava cross of Patek Philippe, it has its roots in the flag of the Huguenots- check out this video I did on how a massacre helped Switzerland become the center for European watchmaking: ruclips.net/video/J6X0yu5wTes/видео.html ) Kindest regards, Bill
@@watchartsci AFAIR the Calatrava cross was, before it got adopted by the Maltese order, the sign of one of the crusades first soldier/priest orders. Maybe i got that wrong. But i am pretty sure that was what i was told in Malta. Ill check out the mechanism :) Well, and so many of the Huogenots went exactly where the Swiss watch industry is (now) located, they were not much loved in the german speaking parts of Switzerland. So no IWCs for them :)
Ha, got it, the Geneva drive. Thanks for reminding me!
Watched the Hugenotten vid, mostly agree. But if the the Calatrava/Malta cross and the Fleur de Lis were used in protestant imagery it still is cultural appropriation as these 2 symbols are truly rooted in catholiscism. Lets not forget that one of the main plans of Calvin, Zwingli, Knox etc. was the destruction of pretty things, idoltry, Bilderstürmen in german. It also was in a way 'anti art'. So you are completly right that there was a tendency to conceal art in things with some everyday use. i stop rambling. have fun.
Also Gronefeld makes a very nice Remontoire!
Absolutely, O Bud! The 1941 Grônefeld is a remontoire I need to learn more about. The least expensive one, though, is $52,000 ... yikes! Kindest regards Bill
@@watchartsci There's one for sale on Chrono24 for 49,900 Euro!
So in dollars, that's $55,707-hey I'm only $50,000 short! Cheers, Bill
Interesting stuff as always Bill. Really enjoy your videos. Have you done any videos on basic recommended watch tools and how to use them for beginners like myself? Thanks.
Hi Carolina, yes...but they're scattered over about 3 or 4 years of videos I've done. Here's one on Timegrapher ( ruclips.net/video/rIyLhw18toI/видео.html ) but I need to do a video on basic toolsets for beginners. Thank you for the idea-I'll do it. Kindest regards, Bill
Many thanks Bill. I'll check them out. Learning a lot from you.
I know you're not a gun guy, but if you like hand crafted finishing...(Holland & Holland)
ruclips.net/video/RLxDRb7yWnw/видео.html
Best to you and the wife,
Richard
Smokey, be sure to see this Friday's video (June 28th) ... it was your request! Funny thing about gun metal-F.P. Journe has a collection of gun metal watches, including Holland & and Holland. www.fpjourne.com/en/event/events/fpjourne-and-holland-holland-partnership-distinction-bringing-exclusive-limited Cheers, Bill
Will do and many thanks. The article you linked was fascinating to say the least. I did not know about that. Cheers indeed.
Hello! I don't think you mentioned the reason for a constant force escapement: it's due to the isochronism defect of the balance-hairspring oscillator.
Thanks Ilan! What exactly is the defect of the balance-hairspring oscillator? defect of the balance-hairspring oscillator
@@watchartsci Hello again! I was refering to "isochronism defect," i.e., that the balance-hairspring frequency (daily rate) changes when its amplitude decreases. To have a more steady daily rate, you need to keep the amplitude relatively constant, and that's the reason to use a constant force escapement.
In theory, the hairspring-balance wheel has isochronism, i.e., the frequency is independent of amplitude, so independent of the torque transmitted by the escapement. In practice, this is not possible, e.g., because the center of the spring isn't exactly at its geometrical center.
What's the watch in your pfp?
What's the 'pfp?' Michelle? Take care, Bill
@@watchartsci profile picture (mine is a purple circle)
My favorit rementoir is the 8s 19441 Grônefeld
Thanks Øystein! I must learn more about it! Kindest regards, Bill
@@watchartsci Sorry about the extra 4, it is ofc. 1941. You have given me a lot of good tips, it is nice to give something back ;-)
Thanks, man! I found the 1941 ... very nice! Now if I can just find one I can afford! Kindest regards, Bill