A major thank you to whoever made that generous donation to allow this ep to be released outside of Patreon. My money situation doesn't allow for me to be able to donate atm, but hopefully in the future I can.
It's even worse when it's a video of you after drinking 1.5 litres of Jägermeister running around a campsite spouting random phrases such as the classic もう死んでいる, and 僕は新世界の神になるぜ. The embarrassment has never left. その時から、もっと真面目に日本語を勉強していた。
@@SelcraigClimbs I think it can be even worse if it's singing. I've got a recording of me drunkenly singing Fighting Gold and I'll use it if I ever want to cringe myself back to factory settings.
7:03 You have no business criticizing my study habits, get out of here with your “methods” that are “effective” and this “actually learning” you speak of, and let me feel like I’m doing something productive with no effort.
You have no business criticizing the free episode provided by Dogen himself and his supporters. YOU are the one who chose to come to this video at the first place, so shut it up.
Is there a fanclub for Dogen's eyebrow? If so, I want in. If not, why not? :D On a more serious note, I love how you pay attention to phonetics and the videos are really helpful
@@kanjiNaem Yeah but you're German. Germans speak it so much more nicely than us Dutch people, we can't help but pronounce everything like a death threat in German. I'm so sorry.
Helpful video. This approach also seems closer to how babies and kids learn. It's careful attention to and mimicry of the spoken word first, then written language later.
I found these tips really helpful Dogen. Unfortunately I'm 2.5 years into learning Japanese and still haven't introduced myself to phonetics. But, when learning a language for the first time as an adult one rarely does things according to their best order anyway.
I got lucky/was blessed to be immersed in Japan(ese) before age 10; so when I took language classes from middle school through college, people always commented that my pronunciation was exceptional. I have nfc what those 4 modes are, but I'd bet getting a handle on them would assist my JPN from deteriorating in my current isolation.
A scenario that I fear might be all too frequent nowadays: - Freshman student of Japanese, to his teacher: "Please, sensei, you really must hear me out! This class needs more phonetics studies!" - Japanese teacher who has extensive pitch accent focus in their curriculum and has been hearing Dogen references in their classroom since 2016: *WilliWonkaChocPlsTellMeMore.jpg*
7:20 actually no, but you are right also. It's right to be repeated but it doesn't mean that all sould be repeated because it's better to change, it's like machine learning.
if only i could find tokyo sonata anywhere aaaa. I think I may end up going with shoplifters. since it is available on Netflix with and without subtitles. thanks so much for the episode though!
This feeling if Dogen always stresses out: "The older you get, the more language sounds greatly deteriorates". I am 28 but feeling already like life ends soon and I won't make it, haha!
Idk about any science behind it, but I'd have to disagree. I think young kids have the advantage because they have lots of time to master things and patient teachers: their parents. If adults can try to recreate these conditions somewhat, then great. I think Dogen's emphasis on sounds first is a fantastic step towards that goal. But no matter what, as adults we have a more developed analytical brain, so we can make better use of techniques to speed things up. p.s. how's your Pandemic Progress been in Japanese?
@@angrydinosaur8plus9 Language learning in children happens in spite of parental instruction. Direct instruction in pronunciation, grammar, or words is largely ignored by young children, and children can learn language simply by listening and copying adult speech, even if it is not directed at them. They accomplish this because they are 24/7 language learners who are utterly dependent on learning a single language without which they have no way to express their needs or feelings besides crying. They have no choice and all the time in the world, essentially. They also don't have any other language to fall back on or color their perceptions of what they are hearing, but it has nothing to do with their parents as teachers- as long as their parents don't lock them in a cellar, they will learn. I tend to agree with your main point though and believe that very little in adult's purported diminished ability to learn sounds/a language comes from some kind of natural decay. I think, as do several linguists, that the major reason is of course that virtually all adults have far less motive or time to learn a language as a child; certainly, a Japanese toddler is going to be exposed to Japanese far more and need to use Japanese constantly to communicate with virtually everyone in his life- even a Westerner in Japan, who can fall back on English and can probably communicate with friends and family without using Japanese has far less motive and time to learn the language. Also, the westerner has already learned English phonology and may unconsciously process Japanese through these hidden phonetic categories of English whereas the Japanese toddler has only ever heard Japanese input, so obviously will not face this issue. It is also important to note that even with the great advantages of time and motive, children still take years to learn a language and sound like an adult- ever heard an English speaking elementary schooler struggle with our very weird "r" sound? Or "th"? I also agree with you that adults have one advantage though- we can (for the most part) be readily taught to comprehend abstract grammatical patterns that are lost on a child; our Westerner from the above example can learn how to conjugate the polite and past tense forms of every Japanese verb in a single day, essentially by learning a rule, but children do not learn this way and it will take them a long time, and along the way they will overgeneralize and over-specify before converging on the correct system over a number of years.
Of course, there must be some base level of understanding of Japanese before starting this phonetic awareness, so approximately at what point in studying the language would you recommend it? eg: starting to learn vocabulary, learning sentence structure, being able to hold a casual conversation, etc.
Hi! Indeed--usually recommend that learners do at least 6 months of wholistic study using a resource such as Genki before beginning a phonetics concentration period. Hope that this helps!
Yeah thanks a lot Dogen! 😖😡 oh yeah only watch episode 1 and 2 of Orange Days.. and episode 2 ends LIKE THAT!!!! come on man! Now my ass is stuck watching the rest of these long ass episodes cuz it’s so good.. ugh!! Recommend non addicting shows please!!! :)
As I was born here, but attended international schools, I learned to speak Japanese by ear only. I was 18 or so when I first actively spoke けいご and 30 before I bothered to learn any 漢字. In the last few years (I’m 48 now) I’m just beginning to realize the phonetic make-up of words. That video that you did about 日本語 日本人 was an eye opener! (I’m obviously not your target audience but I thought it would be nice to pipe up and say hi anyway. Good luck and success in your new life as a full-time YTber!)
Damn, this really makes me wanna get into learning Japanese rn but my situation kinda forces me to wait until summer. Can't wait to get that vocabulary going and then start on my Phonetic awareness, something I've never really done lol
As if it's not enough that to learn Japanese is such a suicide mission, and now to watch "Tokyo Sonata" on repeat?! Somebody is tired of making humor )
Anyone know a good place to watch Orange Days and/or Tokyo Sonata? Neither are on Netflix and I can't find any streaming services where I can watch it.
As somebody learning Japanese primarily for light novels and TV I feel like I've done everything wrong from your perspective. I'm at a point where I'm reading books and newspapers in Japanese daily, but I've never really had any occasion to *speak* the language because I'm mostly studying alone. For my goals this is fine for now and I'm going to continue focusing on vocabulary, but I want to visit Japan for a vacation someday and I plan on dedicating a few months of study to phonetics and conversational practice when I'm in the planning stages of that. What do you think will be the extra challenges I will face doing it this way?
Hi Captain! There's a good chance that you'll need to spend some time correcting certain speaking habits if you delay phonetics studies, but if you're not speaking too much to begin with this shouldn't be too much of an issue. It will probably be useful, however, to sign up and quickly go through the first 10 lessons or so such that you're a bit more of what you're hearing on TV, etc. Hope this helps, cheers!
Hi Ana! Yes, the patreon account is www.patreon.com/dogen Thank you for your interest! The minimum amount for access to the phonetics lessons is $10 a month. Cheers!
I really want to get this patreon series but cannot afford it atm. Is there an estimated amount of episodes to come out so I can save up for them? Thank you
Hi Mary! Not at the moment, but if you're interested in signing up sooner than later let me perhaps encourage you to try paying for just one month initially--you can always stop after the first payment, and during the first month you'll have access to every lesson in the series. Hope this helps! Cheers!
Although giving a focus on specifically phonetics of any foreign language that people aim to learn don't have anything wrong with, I would not necessary say that having a perfect pitch accent brings a perfect "fluency." It's definitely a plus for providing a comfort that the natives of that country hears the phonetics of their language by having much closer native-like accent, doesn't necessarily mean that you are truly knowledgeable with that language. I guess having a separate focus just only for the accent is fascinating enough but I personally do not see the total necessity. Because a language is usually consisted of the four major parts which are listening, reading, speaking, writing and even spending decent amount of time on any of these parts endless takes up our time. I would rather recommend for the people who are worried about their accent to rather just listen to more on that native language within stay focused. There is this RUclips who had a debate going on in his comments that he was either being cocky about his perfect pitch accent or aiming for that specific perfection isn't bad at all. For me, either way was fine as long as he is passionate about learning the foreign language.
Fair enough. He probably meant Fluency only in speaking, so to speak (pun intended). Other parts of fluency will come later, because they don't have a limit. Pronouncing things wrong has a limit in how you can correct them later.
does anyone know where I can (hopefully legally) download "the gentle twelve"/十二人の優しい日本人? so i can watch it regularly? i've found it here on YT but otherwise, no luck
@@lastsaneman19 Well I'm part of a Japanese learning discord, but unfortunately they have a shortlist of native speakers who rarely show up, so that's kinda out of the question. And I'm not from some big city so finding other people who want to meet up and discuss isn't happening either.
I think I saw a post of yours on reddit that linked to a page that for each word it illustrated the “pitch contour” but I lost that phone, it was from a Japanese university I’m absolutely sure about that
Nice episode. I have a question: aren't the phonetics different based on the dialect. I heard Kansai-ben for the most part and I heard it's different to Tokyo Japanese. How different is it?
Speaking very generally, there are more possibly pitch accent patterns in Kansai as the accent also distinguishes initial "tone". For example, 橋 and 箸 are opposite to their standard accent, in this case H-L and L-H respectively, while 端 is H-H which as far as I know is not allowed in the standard accent. At the end of the day though, unless you're actively living in Kansai I wouldn't worry about it much.
Indeed they are quite different. I agree with Aaron, however, that if you study Japanese with professional resources you'll only encounter standard Japanese, so this shouldn't be too much of an issue. Incidentally I talk a bit more about this topic in Episode 3 of the series, which is also available on RUclips. Cheers!
Hampton Moseley uhm no... i live in osaka for almost two years, they understand standard just fine... alot also speak standard... tbh most of the time if u foreigner they dont really speak the dialect with you... u can just pick it up a long the way... its really no big deal... just by having a comprehension of some phrases specifically to the region u are in will do... also kansai is huge and each area inside kansai all have a difference, u cant really like just say focus kansai ben or kyoto ben
What resource do you use to correct your recordings? Because I use anki with audio but you say we should record and work our pronounciation for 30 minuts and after 15-20 minutes analyzing the recording. But when I finished the 30 minutes work I validated the cards so I don't have access to them anymore (they contain native audio and pitch info) so dunno how I could verify the correctness.. checking each word on forvo seem very time consuming and not ideal, same for browsing the cards on my anki deck to find each one I worked on
Best thing is to learn the various patterns by heart such that you can then use this knowledge to correct your own Japanese. Best to internalize the patterns by active listening for them native speech.
Question. When watching movies/shows for shadowing practice, should one have subtitles on in their native language or not? Should we just be doing listening or should we be also reading?
I've heard that a lot of anime, dramas, thrillers and horror movies are spoken widely different from everyday Japanese. How do I know if the movie or episode I pick is going to be useful to study?
Hard to tell for sure, which is why it’s best to avoid anime, which is usually overacted. This is actually one of the reasons I recommend Orange Days and Tokyo Sonata, because they both contain a lot of normal, realistic speech. Another great option is 12 Kind Japanese (12人の優しい日本人).
@@Dogen Thanks for the reply. Something just dawned for me...once we're done studying one of these three, perhaps we'll have enough intuition to know what to pick next.
@crocket dunno if you'll need this a year later but shows where the characters speak moee naturally (slice of life, Sports anime etc.) Opposed to shonen or isekai where the characters would speak very unnaturally. Also don't use shows that have characters that deliberately speak in a dialect (e.g. your name, the Girl speaks in Kyushu dialect)
@@noahgriffith955 of course you would want to understand those but the goal here is to specifically practice your pronunciation so you should look for content where the characters talk like normal people would every day. in terms of dialect it comes down to preference but it is probably a good idea to stick with standard japanese since you will find the a lot more content. i'm not sure how severe the variations are with japanese but I'm from germany and some dialects here are so bad they get subtitles when people get interviewed on the news whereas the standard "hochdeutsch" will be understood by anyone here.
Hi! I recommend signing up for this course and trying to power through all the lessons in around a month or two, while also immersing yourself in native speech. You should only need a bit of time for a concentration period if you're in Japan. Hope this helps!
TheCactuar124 If you listen to a non native, they can make mistake a native wouldn’t make If you mimic their mistakes u mimic something that isn’t Japanese
@@gavart4509 Right, but the way he worded it made it sound like you should only be listening to non-native Japanese, which doesn't make sense. Then he says the third essential practice is to watch Japanese movies on repeat, which means you're exposing yourself to native Japanese, therefore breaking the second essential practice. Now, if he said to analyze the mistakes of non-native Japanese and to be aware of them, that would sound more like a good essential practice. Maybe I'm just not getting it, but his wording really tripped me up.
@@TheCactuar124 "Limit your exposure to non-native Japanese." This English sentence very obviously means that you should listen to as little non-native Japanese as possible. No mistake on his part. Now, if he said "Limit your exposure to only non-native Japanese." or "Limit your exposure to Japanese to non-native sources." it would carry the meaning you imply. As it was said, it does not.
Hey Dogen - will I benefit from your Patreon lessons if I am at a very beginner level? At this stage I feel like what I need is practice with vocabulary and listening comprehension. Are you right for me?
Sleep learning has been debunked by actual scientific studies. Though listening to てんこもり 8hrs a day in your sleep still might do something to your brain 🤔
I am interested in learning kansai dialect since my boyfriend and his family are from kobe, but I am finding it really difficult to find any extensive material on kansai dialect intonation. Do you have any ideas or tips on what to do? Do you talk more about different dialects in your patreon series?
I actually always recommend against learning kansai-ben specifically for this reason--there aren't a lot of good resources on the subject. I strongly suggest you stick with standard Japanese, especially if you don't know for sure whether or not you'll be moving to Kansai in the future. Hope this helps. Cheers!
@@Dogen Thank you for your advice. Most of the japanese I hear on a day to day basis is from talking with my boyfriend, so I am also worried that if I started learning standard japanese I would confuse the two. I'll try to record my boyfriends voice and copying the pitch for a couple of months, if it gets me nowhere I'll switch to standard :) I'm really interested in phonetics so even if I do decide to stick with kansai-ben I'll give your patreon series a watch during summer, when I'm not busy with university!😊 On a different note, I've spent the last couple of days binge watching all of your videos, It made me laugh a lot and I loved oblivion! Thanks again😁
I've been studying second language acquisition at the graduate level & while some of what you say is true (learning pronunciation from native speakers) I really disagree with some of what you say, too. For example, in this video there seems to be a strong emphasis on slow, deliberate phonetic awareness even at the expense of developing language abilities in syntax and expanding vocabulary, which I think is a mistake. The different aspects of language can & probably should be developed simultaneously just as in the first language, especially as there's only so much studying of phonemes in isolation that's even possible AND studies show that after puberty, most people will never develop fully native pronunciation in a second language. The only mitigating factor is that those who interact with native speakers will continue to improve while those who don't, degrade. Which probably explains your terrific pronunciation as you've been immersed with native speakers for years. I think you have good intentions and I acknowledge people can still achieve much better pronunciation if they try than if they don't, but I also think it's important that the reality of the situation is accurately understood. There's also some evidence that ability to acquire syntax degrades overtime as well & at a later point than phonetic awareness (altho those findings have been more mixed than those on phonetic awareness) which means if you're focusing solely on something that is impossible to perfect after puberty at the expense of something you can still master but for a limited time, it's probably not the best decision.
Hi Alice, I've read similar studies about the degradation of syntax, but as you mentioned, because this seems to occur after that of phonetic awareness I believe it's better to concentrate on phonetics in isolation, if only for a bit (I always recommend a temporary concentration on phonetics). I'd also like to add that, as mentioned in this video, I strongly recommend learners completely immerse themselves in native speech through watching movies on repeat while doing so, such that they're continually picking up new words and grammar along the way (though not as actively / purposefully). Finally, as you also mentioned, I strongly believe that even if people are unable to develop a completely native-accent, they can still make immense strides in pronunciation by learning about important but rarely covered phonetic phenomenon, such as devoicing, the four Japanese pitch-accent patterns, etc. I think we actually agree on most points, though perhaps not on the efficacy of a phonetics concentration period. Thank you for your input!
Studies that show that people can't master foreign pronunciation after puberty are really far from comprehensive and are nowhere near definitive. There have also been immense amounts of examples to the contrary. So yeah, things you say are also far from factual truth.
Crap. I went back to watch lessons 1~3 and this. I never actually paid attention to pitch accent or intonation, even for English which is my first language. どうしよう。数独するしか・・・
Well I think it's because firstly, it is your first language, and secondly, English is more on the side of stress accent, as stress in words are used to convey nuance. Like, I'm REALly pleased to meet you vs I'm really pleased to meet YOU.
Dogen | Great. Hope to collaborate with you on RUclips in the future. Seems like most RUclipsrs don’t reply to comments but I wish you all the best with Tokyo Creative and doing Videos full-time. ライト
Hi Tim! This is a difficult one-you can either try to stick with 東京弁 and actively study phonetics, or try to go all out in 関西弁, and do your best through listening and mimicry. In the case that you want to go with 関西弁 then it's probably best to avoid signing up for my course. Cheers and good luck!
@@Dogen You can't stop me from giving you money I hope you know that!! Thank you so much for the honest answer. I've been taking Japanese for the past two years, and I'm actually writing a paper for a Japanese linguistics class on pitch variations (at Miami University in OXFORD, Ohio like that makes any sense) between Osaka, Tokyo, and Hiroshima. I want to be cognizant of pitch variations because, personally, I would want to know the differences between when I hear the Tokyo or Kansai dialect. Also, as you said, even though I'm in second year Japanese classes, people really suck at pitch. I mean seriously some people say like WAtashiwa or daIGAku, and it kills me every time. I also want to participate in the JET program after I graduate, and I think you said in one of your videos that your study of phonetics helped you a lot. Anyway, I really love your videos and look up to you. Thank you so much for the response!
Hey Dogen, I recently stumbled across your channel (thanks RUclips! you did well for once) and I am loving your content. I am currently studying Japanese 101 at my university, but I am an avid otaku and want to be able to read the original source material, as well as eventually travelling to Japan. My question to you is here now whether or not you would recommend your Phonetics series as supplement to my classes, or if I should focus first on gaining more understanding of the grammar, or kanji. I realize you mention this in your motivation for the series, but I'd like to ask for your personal opinion anyway.
He states in the video, if you want decent pronunciation (which you should) it's better to do work on phonetics earlier rather than later. Since you're doing a university course and are therefore already learning the other aspects of the language it's even more important to be mindful about phonetics
Many interesting tips, and impressive that you managed to focus this much on phonetics. However, I still don't buy the importance of developing a native-like accent. I am fully fluent in English, my accent is horribly non native, never had an issue. It seems to me like posing this as a goal is an unhealthy mindset for the most part, a sort of unreachable target to "fully integrate" starting from the language. I'm not saying this is your case, I think you are very passionate about Japanese and the study of languages, but I don't see how most people should put phonetics this high up in their study priorities.
You’re absolutely correct, phonetic study isn’t usually necessary in order to become conversationally fluent. This series is specifically meant for people who want to improve their accent as much as possible. Cheers!
@@Dogen thanks for the answer! Honestly I think knowing the basics of phonetics has many benefits, and I'm quite interested in following the series. I was just drawing a line between a series of videos and 2 years of exclusive focus on the topic (at least for my needs!)
A major thank you to whoever made that generous donation to allow this ep to be released outside of Patreon. My money situation doesn't allow for me to be able to donate atm, but hopefully in the future I can.
Same. Really appreciate this episode.
A friend recorded a video of me while I was speaking Japanese and when I heard it played back I cringed into the next dimension
now I'm scared to hear myself speak in Japanese 👁👄👁
It's even worse when it's a video of you after drinking 1.5 litres of Jägermeister running around a campsite spouting random phrases such as the classic もう死んでいる, and 僕は新世界の神になるぜ. The embarrassment has never left.
その時から、もっと真面目に日本語を勉強していた。
@@SelcraigClimbs I think it can be even worse if it's singing. I've got a recording of me drunkenly singing Fighting Gold and I'll use it if I ever want to cringe myself back to factory settings.
@@cutecommie hahahaha legendary mate
Now, for the important question: How many blue sweaters do you have?
1
Dogen impossible.
@@superkc2557 Impossibru
@@Dogen.... 嘘だよ (this is a lie haha// é mentira garai kkk)
I can see pitch accent in Dogen's eyebrows. It's heiban.
流石、Dogen先生！You are my #1 resource when it comes to pitch accent.
HAHAHAHAHA
☠💀💀💀💀💀💀☠☠☠💀☠☠☠💀💀💀☠💀💀💀☠☠💀💀💀💀💀
LMAO
this guy is a godsent
godsend*. or this guy is god-sent
7:03 You have no business criticizing my study habits, get out of here with your “methods” that are “effective” and this “actually learning” you speak of, and let me feel like I’m doing something productive with no effort.
Sumimasen
You have no business criticizing the free episode provided by Dogen himself and his supporters. YOU are the one who chose to come to this video at the first place, so shut it up.
Antony Yang, it couldn’t be more obviously a joke.
@@felipevasconcelos6736 Yeah hers was as well...
Thank you for this video! I have been"upgraded" recently from 日本語が上手ですね to 日本人ですか？as a Singaporean when making small talk with Japanese.
thats a large jump!
gz
I envy your non-white skin and non-coloured hair.
Damn dude. That's wild.
羨ましい～
Amazingly useful tips, Dogen! You're like a breath of fresh air in the Japanese language learning world.
For anyone who is also studying Chinese, Dogen's advice about phonetic awareness is even more important.
I love how your left eyebrow is always raised
Is there a fanclub for Dogen's eyebrow? If so, I want in. If not, why not? :D
On a more serious note, I love how you pay attention to phonetics and the videos are really helpful
I dont even feel comfortable when I hear the speaking of my mother tongue
me 2
im german though
@@kanjiNaem Yeah but you're German.
Germans speak it so much more nicely than us Dutch people, we can't help but pronounce everything like a death threat in German. I'm so sorry.
@@theramendutchman lol :D
@@theramendutchman nah, we germans sound stupid. Like talk to me and you'll cover your ears, hear my english accent and cringe to death
@@Peter_schluss_mit_Lustig Hear their humour, laugh to death
(why do Germans always say they've got no humour?!)
Helpful video. This approach also seems closer to how babies and kids learn. It's careful attention to and mimicry of the spoken word first, then written language later.
I found these tips really helpful Dogen. Unfortunately I'm 2.5 years into learning Japanese and still haven't introduced myself to phonetics. But, when learning a language for the first time as an adult one rarely does things according to their best order anyway.
I got lucky/was blessed to be immersed in Japan(ese) before age 10; so when I took language classes from middle school through college, people always commented that my pronunciation was exceptional. I have nfc what those 4 modes are, but I'd bet getting a handle on them would assist my JPN from deteriorating in my current isolation.
"nfc" means no fucking clue
2:45 you can also try to make your voice heard by your ear from the outer side
A scenario that I fear might be all too frequent nowadays:
- Freshman student of Japanese, to his teacher: "Please, sensei, you really must hear me out! This class needs more phonetics studies!"
- Japanese teacher who has extensive pitch accent focus in their curriculum and has been hearing Dogen references in their classroom since 2016: *WilliWonkaChocPlsTellMeMore.jpg*
7:20 actually no, but you are right also. It's right to be repeated but it doesn't mean that all sould be repeated because it's better to change, it's like machine learning.
if only i could find tokyo sonata anywhere aaaa. I think I may end up going with shoplifters. since it is available on Netflix with and without subtitles. thanks so much for the episode though!
Thank you so much for this! We actually just filmed a video on helpful Japanese for traveling to Japan and cringed after rewatching it so hard hahaha
This feeling if Dogen always stresses out: "The older you get, the more language sounds greatly deteriorates". I am 28 but feeling already like life ends soon and I won't make it, haha!
I'm 15 and I'm feeling it
Idk about any science behind it, but I'd have to disagree. I think young kids have the advantage because they have lots of time to master things and patient teachers: their parents.
If adults can try to recreate these conditions somewhat, then great. I think Dogen's emphasis on sounds first is a fantastic step towards that goal. But no matter what, as adults we have a more developed analytical brain, so we can make better use of techniques to speed things up.
p.s. how's your Pandemic Progress been in Japanese?
@@angrydinosaur8plus9 Language learning in children happens in spite of parental instruction. Direct instruction in pronunciation, grammar, or words is largely ignored by young children, and children can learn language simply by listening and copying adult speech, even if it is not directed at them. They accomplish this because they are 24/7 language learners who are utterly dependent on learning a single language without which they have no way to express their needs or feelings besides crying. They have no choice and all the time in the world, essentially. They also don't have any other language to fall back on or color their perceptions of what they are hearing, but it has nothing to do with their parents as teachers- as long as their parents don't lock them in a cellar, they will learn.
I tend to agree with your main point though and believe that very little in adult's purported diminished ability to learn sounds/a language comes from some kind of natural decay. I think, as do several linguists, that the major reason is of course that virtually all adults have far less motive or time to learn a language as a child; certainly, a Japanese toddler is going to be exposed to Japanese far more and need to use Japanese constantly to communicate with virtually everyone in his life- even a Westerner in Japan, who can fall back on English and can probably communicate with friends and family without using Japanese has far less motive and time to learn the language. Also, the westerner has already learned English phonology and may unconsciously process Japanese through these hidden phonetic categories of English whereas the Japanese toddler has only ever heard Japanese input, so obviously will not face this issue. It is also important to note that even with the great advantages of time and motive, children still take years to learn a language and sound like an adult- ever heard an English speaking elementary schooler struggle with our very weird "r" sound? Or "th"?
I also agree with you that adults have one advantage though- we can (for the most part) be readily taught to comprehend abstract grammatical patterns that are lost on a child; our Westerner from the above example can learn how to conjugate the polite and past tense forms of every Japanese verb in a single day, essentially by learning a rule, but children do not learn this way and it will take them a long time, and along the way they will overgeneralize and over-specify before converging on the correct system over a number of years.
@@pseudonym1337 I agree with everything you said
@@default632 I am 71 and have been living in Japan since 2012 and I still can't understand a Japanese conversation.
Serious Dogen = unbelievable lesson. Thanks =D
Of course, there must be some base level of understanding of Japanese before starting this phonetic awareness, so approximately at what point in studying the language would you recommend it? eg: starting to learn vocabulary, learning sentence structure, being able to hold a casual conversation, etc.
Hi! Indeed--usually recommend that learners do at least 6 months of wholistic study using a resource such as Genki before beginning a phonetics concentration period. Hope that this helps!
Dogen, thank you for this. I have a question. Would You recomend watching the japanese movies with english subtitles or no subtitles at all?
On for the first few views to get a feel of what's going on, then off after that!
As a certain guy would say: "Input has to be comprehensible" 😉
Knew I would find this question in the comments. Thanks to both of you!
Always taken aback to hear you speak english 😁 (and I don't even speak japanese!)
Very useful vid, merci!! ✌🏾🤗
Yeah thanks a lot Dogen! 😖😡 oh yeah only watch episode 1 and 2 of Orange Days.. and episode 2 ends LIKE THAT!!!! come on man! Now my ass is stuck watching the rest of these long ass episodes cuz it’s so good.. ugh!! Recommend non addicting shows please!!!
:)
Omg nooooo… then that happens in ep 3!!! Aaaaahhhhhh!!!!!!!!!
As I was born here, but attended international schools, I learned to speak Japanese by ear only. I was 18 or so when I first actively spoke けいご and 30 before I bothered to learn any 漢字. In the last few years (I’m 48 now) I’m just beginning to realize the phonetic make-up of words. That video that you did about 日本語 日本人 was an eye opener!
(I’m obviously not your target audience but I thought it would be nice to pipe up and say hi anyway. Good luck and success in your new life as a full-time YTber!)
Damn, this really makes me wanna get into learning Japanese rn but my situation kinda forces me to wait until summer.
Can't wait to get that vocabulary going and then start on my Phonetic awareness, something I've never really done lol
Excellent recommendations, but im goin straight for Kagemusha. I want to sound like ojisan samurai
Always soooooo good. Thanks!
As if it's not enough that to learn Japanese is such a suicide mission, and now to watch "Tokyo Sonata" on repeat?! Somebody is tired of making humor )
Anyone know a good place to watch Orange Days and/or Tokyo Sonata? Neither are on Netflix and I can't find any streaming services where I can watch it.
Wow, I'm surprised by this serious one. Thank you very much for those tips. I'm looking forward to seeing your videos!
本当にありがとうございます!
I'm mad at myself for not watching this earlier.
I have already added some of those, I listen to the same audio... But I haven't recorded myself... I will even thou I don't like the idea...
As somebody learning Japanese primarily for light novels and TV I feel like I've done everything wrong from your perspective. I'm at a point where I'm reading books and newspapers in Japanese daily, but I've never really had any occasion to *speak* the language because I'm mostly studying alone. For my goals this is fine for now and I'm going to continue focusing on vocabulary, but I want to visit Japan for a vacation someday and I plan on dedicating a few months of study to phonetics and conversational practice when I'm in the planning stages of that. What do you think will be the extra challenges I will face doing it this way?
Hi Captain! There's a good chance that you'll need to spend some time correcting certain speaking habits if you delay phonetics studies, but if you're not speaking too much to begin with this shouldn't be too much of an issue. It will probably be useful, however, to sign up and quickly go through the first 10 lessons or so such that you're a bit more of what you're hearing on TV, etc. Hope this helps, cheers!
@@Dogen Thanks for replying. I'm actually pretty interested in your series and I'll definitely try it out at some point.
Dogen, thank you for your fun and interesting lessons. Do you have a patreon account where we can collaborate and how much is the minimum?
Hi Ana! Yes, the patreon account is www.patreon.com/dogen
Thank you for your interest! The minimum amount for access to the phonetics lessons is $10 a month. Cheers!
I really want to get this patreon series but cannot afford it atm. Is there an estimated amount of episodes to come out so I can save up for them? Thank you
Hi Mary! Not at the moment, but if you're interested in signing up sooner than later let me perhaps encourage you to try paying for just one month initially--you can always stop after the first payment, and during the first month you'll have access to every lesson in the series. Hope this helps! Cheers!
Fantastic.
I know the best way to break bad phonetic habits is to never develop them...
でも、2年半ぐらいに日本に住んでいたし、ずっと独学して多分もう訛を台無しにしちゃったし、私のようの人だったら、どうするはいいですか？
Watching the same movie over and over again is totally me! :D I won't say what, though.
So good.
Although giving a focus on specifically phonetics of any foreign language that people aim to learn don't have anything wrong with, I would not necessary say that having a perfect pitch accent brings a perfect "fluency." It's definitely a plus for providing a comfort that the natives of that country hears the phonetics of their language by having much closer native-like accent, doesn't necessarily mean that you are truly knowledgeable with that language. I guess having a separate focus just only for the accent is fascinating enough but I personally do not see the total necessity. Because a language is usually consisted of the four major parts which are listening, reading, speaking, writing and even spending decent amount of time on any of these parts endless takes up our time. I would rather recommend for the people who are worried about their accent to rather just listen to more on that native language within stay focused. There is this RUclips who had a debate going on in his comments that he was either being cocky about his perfect pitch accent or aiming for that specific perfection isn't bad at all. For me, either way was fine as long as he is passionate about learning the foreign language.
Fair enough. He probably meant Fluency only in speaking, so to speak (pun intended). Other parts of fluency will come later, because they don't have a limit. Pronouncing things wrong has a limit in how you can correct them later.
where can your Movie / Drama Recommendations be purchased/rented?
does anyone know where I can (hopefully legally) download "the gentle twelve"/十二人の優しい日本人? so i can watch it regularly? i've found it here on YT but otherwise, no luck
5+ years he says , huh.. huh...
Unfortunately for me, I don't exactly have a Japanese teacher. It's me, my computer, and unrivaled dedication and frustration.
Try finding a conversation group if at all possible, you learn a lot faster with human feedback where you can ask questions
@@lastsaneman19 Well I'm part of a Japanese learning discord, but unfortunately they have a shortlist of native speakers who rarely show up, so that's kinda out of the question. And I'm not from some big city so finding other people who want to meet up and discuss isn't happening either.
@@eggsnbacon7122 how’s it going with the Japanese now?
@@twistiicuber1055 I think it's going well. My listening has gone way up recently and my reading is decent. It's my speaking that lacks, honestly.
Would you say that having Japanese movies playing while you slept was actually helpful?
When it comes to watching the movies/series, should we do it sub or raw?
Hi! I recommend raw, then subbed to understand what's going on, then raw again from that point forward. Cheers!
I think I saw a post of yours on reddit that linked to a page that for each word it illustrated the “pitch contour” but I lost that phone, it was from a Japanese university I’m absolutely sure about that
Would you recommend these tips to improve at spoken English and English pronunciation as well?
Depends on what language you're coming from. From Japanese to English, I'm sure it would help though not necessarily at the same rate.
Not learning Japanese but I am applying it to Russian.
but... we don't have pitch accent T_T
yeah it seems like a better method to learn, since in Russian we have things that don't look like they sound
Nice episode.
I have a question: aren't the phonetics different based on the dialect. I heard Kansai-ben for the most part and I heard it's different to Tokyo Japanese.
How different is it?
Speaking very generally, there are more possibly pitch accent patterns in Kansai as the accent also distinguishes initial "tone". For example, 橋 and 箸 are opposite to their standard accent, in this case H-L and L-H respectively, while 端 is H-H which as far as I know is not allowed in the standard accent.
At the end of the day though, unless you're actively living in Kansai I wouldn't worry about it much.
Indeed they are quite different. I agree with Aaron, however, that if you study Japanese with professional resources you'll only encounter standard Japanese, so this shouldn't be too much of an issue. Incidentally I talk a bit more about this topic in Episode 3 of the series, which is also available on RUclips. Cheers!
@@Dogen if I want to live in the kansai region in the future (Kyoto) should I focus on learning their dialect? Any idea how I could go about this?
Hampton Moseley uhm no... i live in osaka for almost two years, they understand standard just fine... alot also speak standard... tbh most of the time if u foreigner they dont really speak the dialect with you... u can just pick it up a long the way... its really no big deal... just by having a comprehension of some phrases specifically to the region u are in will do... also kansai is huge and each area inside kansai all have a difference, u cant really like just say focus kansai ben or kyoto ben
what the heck is level specific shadow recording lol
What resource do you use to correct your recordings?
Because I use anki with audio but you say we should record and work our pronounciation for 30 minuts and after 15-20 minutes analyzing the recording. But when I finished the 30 minutes work I validated the cards so I don't have access to them anymore (they contain native audio and pitch info) so dunno how I could verify the correctness.. checking each word on forvo seem very time consuming and not ideal, same for browsing the cards on my anki deck to find each one I worked on
Best thing is to learn the various patterns by heart such that you can then use this knowledge to correct your own Japanese. Best to internalize the patterns by active listening for them native speech.
@@Dogen Oh I see, it looks hard to do :p
Thanks a lot!
Question. When watching movies/shows for shadowing practice, should one have subtitles on in their native language or not? Should we just be doing listening or should we be also reading?
Copy/pasting his reply: On for the first few views to get a feel of what's going on, then off after that!
I've heard that a lot of anime, dramas, thrillers and horror movies are spoken widely different from everyday Japanese. How do I know if the movie or episode I pick is going to be useful to study?
Hard to tell for sure, which is why it’s best to avoid anime, which is usually overacted. This is actually one of the reasons I recommend Orange Days and Tokyo Sonata, because they both contain a lot of normal, realistic speech. Another great option is 12 Kind Japanese (12人の優しい日本人).
@@Dogen Thanks for the reply. Something just dawned for me...once we're done studying one of these three, perhaps we'll have enough intuition to know what to pick next.
Also recommend the live-action Rurouni Kenshin movies, because they're pretty widely available abroad.
Hi Dogen, Everyone, I want to learn japanese, do you recommend the AJATT method ? Thank you
Do it mini-E;R
@ thanks for your answer, but what does mini er mean?
@Why Justin aaaah ok thank you for the explanation, I will check E;R's channel it seems interesting. The avatar is from the anime Log horizon
12 Kind Japanese = The Gentle Twelve ?
I'd go with the 12 kind people personally
Can we just appreciate that he actually tells us how valuable watching anime can be? (well, grinding the pitch out of one episode but still..!)
@crocket dunno if you'll need this a year later but shows where the characters speak moee naturally (slice of life, Sports anime etc.) Opposed to shonen or isekai where the characters would speak very unnaturally. Also don't use shows that have characters that deliberately speak in a dialect (e.g. your name, the Girl speaks in Kyushu dialect)
@@leonardchung3825 If your goal is fluency, won't you need to understand these parts of the language eventually anyway?
@@noahgriffith955 of course you would want to understand those but the goal here is to specifically practice your pronunciation so you should look for content where the characters talk like normal people would every day. in terms of dialect it comes down to preference but it is probably a good idea to stick with standard japanese since you will find the a lot more content. i'm not sure how severe the variations are with japanese but I'm from germany and some dialects here are so bad they get subtitles when people get interviewed on the news whereas the standard "hochdeutsch" will be understood by anyone here.
really thought i could get away with rewatching your name again and again, its just so good@@leonardchung3825
Are you going to make these slowly available? o:
ビデオありがとうございました!
@@katdragonfire right, I remember that (: I just didn't know if this was a trend. I wish i had the money to donate and unlock these for everyone lmao
So what I'm hearing is that I should listen to the same AKB48 song on repeat. Got it.
Dogen, I'm moving to Japan soon. I've recently passed N3 but I can't speak for shit. Any tips on how to improve rapidly once I'm there?
Hi! I recommend signing up for this course and trying to power through all the lessons in around a month or two, while also immersing yourself in native speech. You should only need a bit of time for a concentration period if you're in Japan. Hope this helps!
in terms of "being open to phonetic awareness", am I the only one that feels Dogen's moraic nasal ん is kinda more uvular than native speakers?
Is essential practice #2 really limiting exposure to NON-native Japanese? Unless it was a mistake, that seems really counterintuitive to me.
TheCactuar124
If you listen to a non native, they can make mistake a native wouldn’t make
If you mimic their mistakes u mimic something that isn’t Japanese
@@gavart4509 Right, but the way he worded it made it sound like you should only be listening to non-native Japanese, which doesn't make sense. Then he says the third essential practice is to watch Japanese movies on repeat, which means you're exposing yourself to native Japanese, therefore breaking the second essential practice. Now, if he said to analyze the mistakes of non-native Japanese and to be aware of them, that would sound more like a good essential practice. Maybe I'm just not getting it, but his wording really tripped me up.
@@TheCactuar124 "Limit your exposure to non-native Japanese." This English sentence very obviously means that you should listen to as little non-native Japanese as possible. No mistake on his part. Now, if he said "Limit your exposure to only non-native Japanese." or "Limit your exposure to Japanese to non-native sources." it would carry the meaning you imply. As it was said, it does not.
Both interpretations are possible. English's weakness. What he meant is don't listen to people who are not native japanese. as much as possible.
Hey Dogen - will I benefit from your Patreon lessons if I am at a very beginner level?
At this stage I feel like what I need is practice with vocabulary and listening comprehension. Are you right for me?
He literally just said this at 0:30. And honestly if you want another opinion I agree sooner rather than later.
Hi! Sooner than later is usually best, though I like to recommend about 6 months of general study before starting phonetics. Cheers!
Can I use ghibli movies?
Sleep learning has been debunked by actual scientific studies. Though listening to てんこもり 8hrs a day in your sleep still might do something to your brain 🤔
Did u watch the Japanese movies with English sub??
Was episode #5 and episode #6 uploaded?
I am interested in learning kansai dialect since my boyfriend and his family are from kobe, but I am finding it really difficult to find any extensive material on kansai dialect intonation. Do you have any ideas or tips on what to do? Do you talk more about different dialects in your patreon series?
I actually always recommend against learning kansai-ben specifically for this reason--there aren't a lot of good resources on the subject. I strongly suggest you stick with standard Japanese, especially if you don't know for sure whether or not you'll be moving to Kansai in the future. Hope this helps. Cheers!
@@Dogen Thank you for your advice. Most of the japanese I hear on a day to day basis is from talking with my boyfriend, so I am also worried that if I started learning standard japanese I would confuse the two. I'll try to record my boyfriends voice and copying the pitch for a couple of months, if it gets me nowhere I'll switch to standard :) I'm really interested in phonetics so even if I do decide to stick with kansai-ben I'll give your patreon series a watch during summer, when I'm not busy with university!😊
On a different note, I've spent the last couple of days binge watching all of your videos, It made me laugh a lot and I loved oblivion! Thanks again😁
I've been studying second language acquisition at the graduate level & while some of what you say is true (learning pronunciation from native speakers) I really disagree with some of what you say, too.
For example, in this video there seems to be a strong emphasis on slow, deliberate phonetic awareness even at the expense of developing language abilities in syntax and expanding vocabulary, which I think is a mistake. The different aspects of language can & probably should be developed simultaneously just as in the first language, especially as there's only so much studying of phonemes in isolation that's even possible AND studies show that after puberty, most people will never develop fully native pronunciation in a second language. The only mitigating factor is that those who interact with native speakers will continue to improve while those who don't, degrade. Which probably explains your terrific pronunciation as you've been immersed with native speakers for years.
I think you have good intentions and I acknowledge people can still achieve much better pronunciation if they try than if they don't, but I also think it's important that the reality of the situation is accurately understood.
There's also some evidence that ability to acquire syntax degrades overtime as well & at a later point than phonetic awareness (altho those findings have been more mixed than those on phonetic awareness) which means if you're focusing solely on something that is impossible to perfect after puberty at the expense of something you can still master but for a limited time, it's probably not the best decision.
Hi Alice, I've read similar studies about the degradation of syntax, but as you mentioned, because this seems to occur after that of phonetic awareness I believe it's better to concentrate on phonetics in isolation, if only for a bit (I always recommend a temporary concentration on phonetics). I'd also like to add that, as mentioned in this video, I strongly recommend learners completely immerse themselves in native speech through watching movies on repeat while doing so, such that they're continually picking up new words and grammar along the way (though not as actively / purposefully). Finally, as you also mentioned, I strongly believe that even if people are unable to develop a completely native-accent, they can still make immense strides in pronunciation by learning about important but rarely covered phonetic phenomenon, such as devoicing, the four Japanese pitch-accent patterns, etc. I think we actually agree on most points, though perhaps not on the efficacy of a phonetics concentration period. Thank you for your input!
Studies that show that people can't master foreign pronunciation after puberty are really far from comprehensive and are nowhere near definitive. There have also been immense amounts of examples to the contrary. So yeah, things you say are also far from factual truth.
over and over again 🗾
Ffs... I literally didn't hear a single difference between the sounds at 1:24.... I guess I'm beyond help, ugh
No one is beyond help, friend.
There isn't any difference
I love you
Crap. I went back to watch lessons 1~3 and this. I never actually paid attention to pitch accent or intonation, even for English which is my first language. どうしよう。数独するしか・・・
Well I think it's because firstly, it is your first language, and secondly, English is more on the side of stress accent, as stress in words are used to convey nuance. Like, I'm REALly pleased to meet you vs I'm really pleased to meet YOU.
Dogen | Great. Hope to collaborate with you on RUclips in the future. Seems like most RUclipsrs don’t reply to comments but I wish you all the best with Tokyo Creative and doing Videos full-time. ライト
アルフィー ✨ Persistence, what a beautiful word 🖤
Yep, you're definitely persistent.
このビデオが好きだ。来学期に大阪に留学する。これから、関西弁と東京弁を習ったほうがいいだ？アドバイスがほしいだよ。
Hi Tim! This is a difficult one-you can either try to stick with 東京弁 and actively study phonetics, or try to go all out in 関西弁, and do your best through listening and mimicry. In the case that you want to go with 関西弁 then it's probably best to avoid signing up for my course. Cheers and good luck!
@@Dogen You can't stop me from giving you money I hope you know that!! Thank you so much for the honest answer. I've been taking Japanese for the past two years, and I'm actually writing a paper for a Japanese linguistics class on pitch variations (at Miami University in OXFORD, Ohio like that makes any sense) between Osaka, Tokyo, and Hiroshima. I want to be cognizant of pitch variations because, personally, I would want to know the differences between when I hear the Tokyo or Kansai dialect. Also, as you said, even though I'm in second year Japanese classes, people really suck at pitch. I mean seriously some people say like WAtashiwa or daIGAku, and it kills me every time. I also want to participate in the JET program after I graduate, and I think you said in one of your videos that your study of phonetics helped you a lot. Anyway, I really love your videos and look up to you. Thank you so much for the response!
面白い語尾だと思いますだw
Has anyone ever told you that you look like Jeff Probst? 😅
めちゃくちゃ有用なこと言ってるにもかかわらず（日本語学習に限った話じゃなくて、外国語学習一般に適用できる有益なあどｂ…"助言"）、残念なことに、当然のことながら、上級日本語講義™より相当視聴数が少ないのね…
™
Hey Dogen, I recently stumbled across your channel (thanks RUclips! you did well for once) and I am loving your content.
I am currently studying Japanese 101 at my university, but I am an avid otaku and want to be able to read the original source material, as well as eventually travelling to Japan. My question to you is here now whether or not you would recommend your Phonetics series as supplement to my classes, or if I should focus first on gaining more understanding of the grammar, or kanji. I realize you mention this in your motivation for the series, but I'd like to ask for your personal opinion anyway.
He states in the video, if you want decent pronunciation (which you should) it's better to do work on phonetics earlier rather than later. Since you're doing a university course and are therefore already learning the other aspects of the language it's even more important to be mindful about phonetics
Many interesting tips, and impressive that you managed to focus this much on phonetics.
However, I still don't buy the importance of developing a native-like accent. I am fully fluent in English, my accent is horribly non native, never had an issue.
It seems to me like posing this as a goal is an unhealthy mindset for the most part, a sort of unreachable target to "fully integrate" starting from the language. I'm not saying this is your case, I think you are very passionate about Japanese and the study of languages, but I don't see how most people should put phonetics this high up in their study priorities.
You’re absolutely correct, phonetic study isn’t usually necessary in order to become conversationally fluent. This series is specifically meant for people who want to improve their accent as much as possible. Cheers!
@@Dogen thanks for the answer! Honestly I think knowing the basics of phonetics has many benefits, and I'm quite interested in following the series. I was just drawing a line between a series of videos and 2 years of exclusive focus on the topic (at least for my needs!)
I can never get first comment!
I need to study Japanese phonetics
First
How could I let you defeat me
いいえ、いつものドゲン返してください。ところで、最近あなたはビーニを使っていません。なぜ。
Can you go back to speak Japanese again please.