@@Curryboikutty Its the rōmaji (roman letters) for the Japanese sentence 日本語上手, that even though it translates to "good japanese" or "your japanese is good", it is known among japanese learners to be a signal that japanese people don't think that your japanese is fluent enough (Although it's by no means a way for them to mock you!).
All of the people trying to make sense of Korone's accent now have an excellent resource thanks to you & the generous Patron for making this available publicly!
@@CosylandWhispers Heya! I'm still over in the comments on Tom's channel pretty regularly, but a lot more sporadic on the other channels. It is a super small world, but that makes it fun to run into familiar faces like this! Hope 2021's doin' ya well!
@@PierceArner Yeah that's fair. I'm sure it's Tom's channel where I've seen you before, back in the early days when he wasn't as popular. You always make the kindest comments, which is why I think I recognised you! Hope you're doing good too friend, 2021 has to be better than 2020 haha.
@@CosylandWhispers Yeah, it was a particularly enjoyable time back in the olden days of his channel. Also, thanks as it means a lot & maybe I'll catch ya around the comments section again sometime!
I watched this for my English listening skill and I really enjoyed the lesson. A bit strange to be taught my language though, it’s pretty interesting how foreigners learn Japanese to speak like native.
Just subscribed on Patreon. I hate how books and even videos rarely talk about pitch and tone. When you self-study like I do, you memorize things but create bad pronunciation habits without meaning to. I look forward to your lessons! Happy New Year! (P.S. - I want one of those Sushi neon signs lol)
That explanation of stress in musical terms, like a piano, proved to be EXTREMELY BENEFICIAL to my understanding, since I am a musician...thank you so much!! >< I guess that was the missing piece that I needed to hear
Having finally watched through these first 5 phonetics lessons I am compelled to become a patron for ongoing enlightenment. Your points throughout are so well-argued and I admire your educational passion for and academic pursuit of phonetics! It was also a pleasant surprise to see you chatting candidly in this video in stark contrast to your more familiar content haha.
Hey Dogen! Happy new year and I'm glad that this came out! I recently fell down the V-Tuber rabbit hole and this video got me thinking about how a certain V-Tuber's (Korone) accent was different. I was hoping that you might comment on it and explain the differences
Ah I remember the time Okayu talked about this to Korone and she didn't even realize that. It was said that it's her unconscious habit or regional accent if I'm correct.
Dogen! So good to see you're doing well! This episode was so informative and helpful! I sent it to my family for the non japanese speakers to see and learn from. I think this will help with a lot of conversations about pronunciation that have been difficult to navigate in the past!
So true! As I started to get into more and more difficult discussions, I started to get much more pushback on my Japanese pronunciation. Ordering coffee? No problem. Discussing legal tech? Huge problem. Part of the issue is that Japanese will tell you that you're the most amazing Japanese speaker they've ever met. Don't get complacent! As you get into higher level discussions, pitch accent becomes much more important because it can change the meaning, or sound like a completely different word. If you've studied Japanese for 10 years and suddenly start to lose confidence in your pronunciation, you're on the right track.
It seems to be a lil random, with different japanese people pronouncing the same word differently, but generally if a hard consonant follows, this is where you can find devoiced i and u
In anime, I could hear many characters pronounce clearly the U of SU in MASU or DESU when they speak with keigo, this is more perceptible in women's voices than men's. I would say that devoiced thing can be flexible.
This is so true. You can have the mannerisms, question intonation, segmentals and even stress right, but if the pitch accent is wrong you'll sound crap. When I noticed that and realised that I had to relearn how to speak, I gave up and never spoke again! :-(
Wow, these are all things I figured out unconsciously but it’s crazy to hear you lay it all out logically, especially the difference between Japanese and English linguistics, like the amount of force on stressed syllables vs. pitch
I hope you see my comment, Dogen. I recently found your channel and I've been watching your videos for the past few days. I'm curious of your story of how you learned Japanese, where you're from, and how and when did you move to Japan. Your English and Japanese sound like you're fluent. I'm really impressed!
Thank you for this release! Have you considered publishing parts of your phonology series for purchase via download? So far, it seems exclusive to Patreon subscribers. It would be cool to have another option for people like me who would like to enjoy this series and support you but avoid a monthly subscription (:
Cool video, I will ignore pitch accent for now since I don't really have much vocabulary to speak of. I think I will come back to this subject when I feel I can be fairly conversational without worrying much about what certain words mean. Also, I can't quite tell the difference in pitch (seems like a tiny change that if you told me wasn't there I would believe you), so I definitely think I am not ready for this subject yet.
Thanks for your great explanations! I'm very lucky to find your videos. I'd maybe think, that the person learned Japanese in Kansai area, when I hear "GAkkou", "GAkusei" or "GInkou". Those words sound like strange as "high Japanese" but from my point of view, they're in some ways not 100% wrong 🙂 Thanks again!
I disagree with that the low-high model of Japanese pitch being the technical truth. The technical truth is that a smooth pitch contour flows over the word and that it's not as simple as that individual moræ are low or high. In particular, research finds that even without a following particle, there is a pitch difference between unaccented words, and final-accented words, and that native speakers can with about 70% accuracy tell the difference from a recording where the particle was cut between minimal pairs because the pitch does not rise to the same level in unaccented words as it does in final accented words. Also, devoicing makes the downstep model more difficult since devoiced moræ carry no pitch at all. It can happen that the theoretical “downstep” occurs on a devoiced mora. In which case the downstep occurs one mora later, but Japanese speakers still correctly identify the accented mora, as it can never be a devoiced one so it has to be the one before that. The low-high model is a good training tool to train oneself into recognizing and producing Japanese pitch accent, but it does not accurately reflect the way native speakers of Japanese realize and interpret pitch accent, and it can't explain many minimal pairs that exist that native speakers can identify. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Japanese_pitch_accent_demonstration.ogg This example illustrates well that a final-accented, and accentless word sound different, even in the absence of a following particle. In the case of /hasí/, the pitch rises higher than in the case of the accentless /hasi/, even though both would be marked as L-H in the low-high model.
at 4:41 The pitch doesn't seem to stay high to my ear. In musical terms It sounds like it's going up by a perfect fourth, but then falling down a semitone for the second な sound. I've noticed the same thing when I've been paying attention to pitch accent on an anki deck I've been using. Several of the heiban words seem to have a smaller drop in pitch after the rise. I'm only a few dozen words in so far, so I can't say how prevalent it is, but it is a bit confusing, for sure. Are smaller changes like that "normal", or is this further nuance, or is a very flat contour still more correct?
Many thanks! I always wonder why the Japanese teachers don't teach us things like you do, and that makes we foreigners difficult to understand what's been taught when compared with words really spoken
Random question, so, I was reading an article and it mentioned 藤 and it said "Fuji, like the mountain, but the mountain is FUji, the flower is fuJI". And I was discussing I with some Japanese people. I showed them the kanji and they ALL said FUji. I looked it up in multiple dictionaries and they all say fuJI. But then one person said... Unless you add 花 to it... Then it changes from FUji, to fuJI NO HAna Thoughts? Is it the same as when you combine words? Like 白人男性? I don't know, but test it out. Dictionaries say fuJI, but show the kanji 藤 to Japanese people (in Tokyo) and listen to the result.
素晴らしい講義でした。Just one question. Could you give examples of mono-mora words with low or high accent, and those without accent, and how to nail them down? ʕっ•ᴥ•ʔっ
Thanks Dogen, now any time I watch any other polyglot video, their Japanese sounds sub par compared to yours. It's insane, any time I think of someone speaking Japanese, I hear your voice.
As someone who lived in Kansai when I first moved to Japan i notice some differences from what i am used to :O like the word 鼻 Learning proper 標準語 is very educational :)
Maybe I do not catch everything (English is not my native language), but as far as I know only consonants could be devoiced. And vowel い in given example of 聞く is reduced.
I've only realised until now that I've put too much force in some words with rising pitches, while trying to imitate native speakers. And I realised I often subconsciously change my voice into an unnatural tone while trying to learn from someone else's tone of voice. Does anyone else have this problem?
I do mate, actually i'm still learning both. But my japanese is still in the very beginner level. I decided to learn it when i was bored of self quarantine a few months ago. Therefore channels like this is really helpful for me because i can learn japanese and increasing my English listening skill at the same time
I always train both, have learned japanese only in englisch, same with TV Shows. If they are spanisch, I always put english subtitles instead of my mothertongue :) good luck in your further studies!
God bless the person who paid for all of us to see this. Thank you!
Indeed
A real bro! If you're here, please let us thank you!
Came here to say thank you also! Also that Dogen is a great teacher. His lessons are so easy to follow!
Absolutely hero.
There is still much good in the world 2021 is looking up!
May the patreon that payed for this be safe from any nihongo jouzus from native japanese speakers.
Good one
Lmao
Apologies for my ignorance, what's a nihongo jouzus?
@@Curryboikutty Its the rōmaji (roman letters) for the Japanese sentence 日本語上手, that even though it translates to "good japanese" or "your japanese is good", it is known among japanese learners to be a signal that japanese people don't think that your japanese is fluent enough (Although it's by no means a way for them to mock you!).
@@JotaceLIVE Thank you so much for clearing that up, good luck learning Japanese🙌😋
Dogen: A patreon paid a lumpsum to make this episode free...
The subs: He is the messiah!!!
Thank you stranger for doing this for us all
To the patreon: honestly, thank you so much. Thank you, whoever you are!
All of the people trying to make sense of Korone's accent now have an excellent resource thanks to you & the generous Patron for making this available publicly!
Hey man, I used to see you everywhere on Yogscast videos. RUclips is a small world.
@@CosylandWhispers Heya! I'm still over in the comments on Tom's channel pretty regularly, but a lot more sporadic on the other channels. It is a super small world, but that makes it fun to run into familiar faces like this! Hope 2021's doin' ya well!
@@PierceArner Yeah that's fair. I'm sure it's Tom's channel where I've seen you before, back in the early days when he wasn't as popular. You always make the kindest comments, which is why I think I recognised you! Hope you're doing good too friend, 2021 has to be better than 2020 haha.
@@CosylandWhispers Yeah, it was a particularly enjoyable time back in the olden days of his channel. Also, thanks as it means a lot & maybe I'll catch ya around the comments section again sometime!
I've just started watching Dogen's phonetics videos, and this is the second time I've seen a Koronesuki in the comments 😂
I watched this for my English listening skill and I really enjoyed the lesson. A bit strange to be taught my language though, it’s pretty interesting how foreigners learn Japanese to speak like native.
英語上手
I always wondered whether Japanese people use Japanese lessons for English speakers to test their English comprehension
Just subscribed on Patreon. I hate how books and even videos rarely talk about pitch and tone. When you self-study like I do, you memorize things but create bad pronunciation habits without meaning to. I look forward to your lessons! Happy New Year! (P.S. - I want one of those Sushi neon signs lol)
Who's this guy in the brown hoodie though? He kinda reminds me of Dogen, but Dogen wears a blue shirt...
Yeah, it's honestly kind of eerie....🤔
Its Rogan, his american brother
From the bottom of my heart, thank you to whoever made this public release possible!
Ah, back when you had hair...
Thank you to the person who paid to let this be released to the public!
That explanation of stress in musical terms, like a piano, proved to be EXTREMELY BENEFICIAL to my understanding, since I am a musician...thank you so much!! >< I guess that was the missing piece that I needed to hear
Wow the new background feels so warm and cozy!!
日本人です😊このチャンネルを見て英語を勉強してます！将来日本語と英語を両方話せるようになりたいので毎日勉強を頑張っています！ チャンネル登録もしました👍😏
Whoever paid to have this released; you're doing god's work. Thank you
Having finally watched through these first 5 phonetics lessons I am compelled to become a patron for ongoing enlightenment. Your points throughout are so well-argued and I admire your educational passion for and academic pursuit of phonetics! It was also a pleasant surprise to see you chatting candidly in this video in stark contrast to your more familiar content haha.
Thank you anonymous patreon! And thank you Doegen for the wonderfully thought out lesson❤
Whoever that patreon was, you are a kind stranger and may you live a happy life
Last time I was this early Dogen was still talking about a creepy old man in a subway 😂
Massive respect to the Patron who shelled out for the rest of us. Big up!
I'm studying English from you.
Thank you!
I’m Japanese
Devoicing is like word end plosives in English I guess.
Almost of Japanese struggle with it in terms of speaking and also listening.
勉強になりました！ありがとうございます！
I found your channel a week ago because there is a Japanese that recommend you to us Japanese learners, thank you for teaching us!
That person is so breath taking! Thank you!
Kamisama bless that patreon madlad
Thank you, random Patron, for helping this video get a public release
Hey Dogen! Happy new year and I'm glad that this came out! I recently fell down the V-Tuber rabbit hole and this video got me thinking about how a certain V-Tuber's (Korone) accent was different. I was hoping that you might comment on it and explain the differences
Ah I remember the time Okayu talked about this to Korone and she didn't even realize that. It was said that it's her unconscious habit or regional accent if I'm correct.
As far as I can remember, that's the accent her granny is speaking mixed with the standard one.
Your videos are so helpful and interesting:-) Thanks Dogen. Especially your short stories. Fab.
me: *just listening to this video in the background*
dogen: かいしゃ
me: hello? my name??
蚊医者 ^^
This video is so good I'm considering backing on patreon myself!
And this is one of his earliest videos. The later stuff gets better.
Papa Dogen has blessed us with his first video of this year!
Thank you whoever you are patreon guy who paid for all of us
*salutes
Dogen! So good to see you're doing well! This episode was so informative and helpful! I sent it to my family for the non japanese speakers to see and learn from. I think this will help with a lot of conversations about pronunciation that have been difficult to navigate in the past!
Good content on pitch accent man (so the content is basically sponsored) congrats on 300k subs man really happy
to dogen and the dearest patreon : thanks! happy new year!
Thank you to that kind person and you, dogen🥺💞🙏
Thank you very much to the person that paid to show us this
Glad to have recently found this channel. Very valuable content 👍
So true! As I started to get into more and more difficult discussions, I started to get much more pushback on my Japanese pronunciation. Ordering coffee? No problem. Discussing legal tech? Huge problem.
Part of the issue is that Japanese will tell you that you're the most amazing Japanese speaker they've ever met. Don't get complacent! As you get into higher level discussions, pitch accent becomes much more important because it can change the meaning, or sound like a completely different word.
If you've studied Japanese for 10 years and suddenly start to lose confidence in your pronunciation, you're on the right track.
Hi, Dogen san! I'm Japanese and subscribed your channel just now! Happy New Year🎍
明けましておめでとうございます❗
Happy new year dogen!
Thanks for the work you put in for such a good video :)
Hey Dogen you are an awesome person. Thanks for all of your videos! They really make every day better
That was awesome. Thank you so much, Dogen!
Thank you Patron!
Re: 3:50 I know that the 'う' sound in ます and
です are generally devoiced but is there a rule for when vowels are devoiced in Japanese?
Yes I talk about this in detail across two video lessons in my Patreon series!
It seems to be a lil random, with different japanese people pronouncing the same word differently, but generally if a hard consonant follows, this is where you can find devoiced i and u
From what I see, if the vowel i or u is between unvoiced consonants (eg: p, t, sh, k, h) the vowel also become unvoiced
In anime, I could hear many characters pronounce clearly the U of SU in MASU or DESU when they speak with keigo, this is more perceptible in women's voices than men's. I would say that devoiced thing can be flexible.
日本人は発音の際に母音を意識していません。ローマ字で説明するするときに無理やり「す」を「SU」と表記するため、発語は必ずしもそうではないことが多いです。「です～」のときは「DESUU」となり母音を伸ばしますしね。私は日本人ですが外国語を習った際に「くつした(靴下🧦)」は「KUTSUSHITA」と書くが、日本人の発音は「KTS SHTA」くらいに母音を発していないと教わり、それ以来日本語を学ぶ外国人は大変だなと思いました😀
This is so true. You can have the mannerisms, question intonation, segmentals and even stress right, but if the pitch accent is wrong you'll sound crap. When I noticed that and realised that I had to relearn how to speak, I gave up and never spoke again! :-(
that patreon is a god in my eyes
thanks for doing these amazing videos!!!
Wow, these are all things I figured out unconsciously but it’s crazy to hear you lay it all out logically, especially the difference between Japanese and English linguistics, like the amount of force on stressed syllables vs. pitch
A huge thanks for that Patreon !
And that was a great and interesting lesson ~
Dogen even getting more self conscious of his pitch accent in english throughout the vid
Would love see more of this background
Thank you so much patreon!
I hope you see my comment, Dogen. I recently found your channel and I've been watching your videos for the past few days. I'm curious of your story of how you learned Japanese, where you're from, and how and when did you move to Japan. Your English and Japanese sound like you're fluent. I'm really impressed!
ruclips.net/p/PLSZIfqCYMzXVxbQdRDLGsaBcqIbhsv7hp
ruclips.net/video/TTPt2DwLsD0/видео.html
These two links may provide you with more insight on Dogen’s backstory :)
But maybe try searching around on RUclips before checking out these links
Thank you to that patron!
Current Dogen seems more chill and humble compared to 8y ago version
Thank you for this release! Have you considered publishing parts of your phonology series for purchase via download? So far, it seems exclusive to Patreon subscribers. It would be cool to have another option for people like me who would like to enjoy this series and support you but avoid a monthly subscription (:
Thank you Patron-Sama!
Thank you for whoever paid. I was considering becoming a patreon but wanted to see if the lessons would be something I could use
Generosity = class! Thank You our dear benefactor!
Cool video, I will ignore pitch accent for now since I don't really have much vocabulary to speak of. I think I will come back to this subject when I feel I can be fairly conversational without worrying much about what certain words mean.
Also, I can't quite tell the difference in pitch (seems like a tiny change that if you told me wasn't there I would believe you), so I definitely think I am not ready for this subject yet.
Thanks for our patron.
The person who did this is the real MVP
I like 酒 vs 鮭 as an example for myself to understand the difference of pitch
Thanks for your great explanations! I'm very lucky to find your videos.
I'd maybe think, that the person learned Japanese in Kansai area, when I hear "GAkkou", "GAkusei" or "GInkou".
Those words sound like strange as "high Japanese" but from my point of view, they're in some ways not 100% wrong 🙂 Thanks again!
I disagree with that the low-high model of Japanese pitch being the technical truth.
The technical truth is that a smooth pitch contour flows over the word and that it's not as simple as that individual moræ are low or high. In particular, research finds that even without a following particle, there is a pitch difference between unaccented words, and final-accented words, and that native speakers can with about 70% accuracy tell the difference from a recording where the particle was cut between minimal pairs because the pitch does not rise to the same level in unaccented words as it does in final accented words.
Also, devoicing makes the downstep model more difficult since devoiced moræ carry no pitch at all. It can happen that the theoretical “downstep” occurs on a devoiced mora. In which case the downstep occurs one mora later, but Japanese speakers still correctly identify the accented mora, as it can never be a devoiced one so it has to be the one before that.
The low-high model is a good training tool to train oneself into recognizing and producing Japanese pitch accent, but it does not accurately reflect the way native speakers of Japanese realize and interpret pitch accent, and it can't explain many minimal pairs that exist that native speakers can identify.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Japanese_pitch_accent_demonstration.ogg
This example illustrates well that a final-accented, and accentless word sound different, even in the absence of a following particle. In the case of /hasí/, the pitch rises higher than in the case of the accentless /hasi/, even though both would be marked as L-H in the low-high model.
Thank you Dogen !
That one patreon, ありがとうございました！
at 4:41 The pitch doesn't seem to stay high to my ear. In musical terms It sounds like it's going up by a perfect fourth, but then falling down a semitone for the second な sound.
I've noticed the same thing when I've been paying attention to pitch accent on an anki deck I've been using. Several of the heiban words seem to have a smaller drop in pitch after the rise. I'm only a few dozen words in so far, so I can't say how prevalent it is, but it is a bit confusing, for sure.
Are smaller changes like that "normal", or is this further nuance, or is a very flat contour still more correct?
hah. Okay. I just started watching lesson 6.3, and it explains this exact thing.
To that patron
thank you so much
The man that did that, you're amazing. あなたは大 好きですよ！笑. 良かったしますよ！ありがとうございます！
Now, let's get into this.
20:47 for me it is almost the same 😅
I love the new set holy shit what
Btw Dogen, if I have a question would it be better to ask you in English it Japanese?
im definitely considering your patreon now lol
I'm not a learner, just like your vids and am highly enthused by linguistic info/the pronunciation of languages 😅 Thank you anonymous patron
Thank you anonymous patreon sponsor!
That’s it. I’m subscribing to patreon to watch all videos on pitch accent Lol
Many thanks! I always wonder why the Japanese teachers don't teach us things like you do, and that makes we foreigners difficult to understand what's been taught when compared with words really spoken
Thanks Patronさん。
Who else wants to watch Dogen cook?
Thank you! Very much appreciated!
Dogen hits the VER and the whole crowd be looking at her.
Thank you very much kind person, that paid a lot of money
Thank you Dogen and a big thank you to the patreon too!
Thank you guardian angel patreon person that paid the lump sum so we can all learn Japanese!!
Random question, so, I was reading an article and it mentioned 藤 and it said "Fuji, like the mountain, but the mountain is FUji, the flower is fuJI".
And I was discussing I with some Japanese people. I showed them the kanji and they ALL said FUji.
I looked it up in multiple dictionaries and they all say fuJI.
But then one person said... Unless you add 花 to it... Then it changes from FUji, to fuJI NO HAna
Thoughts?
Is it the same as when you combine words? Like 白人男性?
I don't know, but test it out. Dictionaries say fuJI, but show the kanji 藤 to Japanese people (in Tokyo) and listen to the result.
私が所持する「アクセント辞典」にも、藤は「ふ(low)じ(high)」、富士は「ふ(high)じ(low)」と書いてあります。
「藤の花」は、私なら「ふ(l)じ(h)の(h)は(h)な(h)」と言う。「ふ(l)じ(h)の(h)は(h)な(l)」とは言わない。
「白人男性」は、
「は(l)く(h)じ(h)ん(h)だ(h)ん(h)せ(h)い(l)」と言う。
「は(l)く(h)じ(h)ん(h)だ(l)ん(h)せ(h)い(h)」とは言わない。
「アクセント辞典」には、単語を単独に発音した場合のアクセントが、掲げられているようです。
単語が組み合わさって熟語となった場合には、単語自体のアクセントが変わるようです。
@@魚炭 そうですね。間違えました。fuJI NO HANAと言うですね。
素晴らしい講義でした。Just one question. Could you give examples of mono-mora words with low or high accent, and those without accent, and how to nail them down? ʕっ•ᴥ•ʔっ
I talk about this in my Patreon series. Cheers!
Thanks so much!!! I love your lessons 🙃
Thanks Dogen, now any time I watch any other polyglot video, their Japanese sounds sub par compared to yours. It's insane, any time I think of someone speaking Japanese, I hear your voice.
As someone who lived in Kansai when I first moved to Japan i notice some differences from what i am used to :O like the word 鼻
Learning proper 標準語 is very educational :)
Maybe I do not catch everything (English is not my native language), but as far as I know only consonants could be devoiced. And vowel い in given example of 聞く is reduced.
this is great. thank you.
19:23 Dogen’s villain origin story
Thank you！ This really helps！
I've only realised until now that I've put too much force in some words with rising pitches, while trying to imitate native speakers. And I realised I often subconsciously change my voice into an unnatural tone while trying to learn from someone else's tone of voice. Does anyone else have this problem?
Is anybody else practicing their English listening skills instead of practicing japonese? No?
I do mate, actually i'm still learning both.
But my japanese is still in the very beginner level. I decided to learn it when i was bored of self quarantine a few months ago.
Therefore channels like this is really helpful for me because i can learn japanese and increasing my English listening skill at the same time
I always train both, have learned japanese only in englisch, same with TV Shows. If they are spanisch, I always put english subtitles instead of my mothertongue :) good luck in your further studies!
🤣💕
@@jushiii_146 biste deutsch?
No
Such a cool person. He took one for the team
thank you so much, anonymous patreon