IPA is one of the most important things you can learn when learning a foreign language. I often wonder why it’s not taught as a primer to language early on in the educational system.
@Damon Jay It's not taught because everyone hates it and adamantly refuses to learn it because yolo, who cares about pronunciation lol, too much work lol, Which is fair....
I just started learning Japanese, half for fun, half for cv purposes. I was so happy last week for learning a handful of words and basic grammar, when I discovered your channel and saw the long road ahead. Overwhelming, but not disheartening! I hope someday I will be able to get to something as complex as pitch accents. Thank you for your content, it's honestly amazing and incredible how you make your videos so much fun!
I am 1 year into Japanese (ajatt) and the apparent complexity only motivates me to learn more ;D kinda to prove to myself that I can complete the challenge of learning all of this (like pitch accent)
So if that's the pronunciation for 相性が and subsequently the one for 愛称が, then how do you pronounce "i生姜", the latest advancement in culinary technology from Apple?
1:192:14 Dogen's face was like *"What am I doing here. Should I put an interesting face or not"* xD It's interesting that some people able to recognize the subtle drop, if you're not used to it you probably can't. Is the pitch going to be affected if you're speaking in Kanto, Kansai, or any other accents?
To answer your question, yea other dialects have completely different pitch accent systems. Not just different pitch accent patterns for different words, but entirely different systems. For example, the Kansai dialects have a pitch accent feature where the initial mora has a distinctly low or high tone, meaning you can have words like H-H-H or L-H-H. They also have pitch accent changes within one-mora words. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansai_dialect#Pitch_accent Dogen's series only focuses on pitch accent in standard Japanese though.
I'm not sure if it's a matter of being "used to it" either, or if some people just notice small changes in pitch. I'm completely new to Japanese. I've learned about 20 words from a core 2k deck (mostly counting, ugh), but was immediately confused why I was hearing low-high-low on some words that are marked as low-high-high, and that was from day 1. Maybe the 5th or 6th word I went to double check if the card was correct. I've also dabbled in music at a very amateur level, but can't easily recognize intervals by ear or anything. I actually had to check on my guitar to recognize how much smaller the drop was. (If I had to guess by ear, I would have placed it right in the middle, but really it's about 1/5 of the way on a couple examples I compared)
as a japanese speaker, both 相性が&愛称が sound same and like 合い生姜 that means “with ginger” ngl. Maybe the last が sound needs more tone down so as to sounds normal.
Oh thank you for explaining this. I kept looking up words and it would say that it was heiban only to look up the pronunciation and have it sound like it was going down rather than up or flat. I was very confused
Ah, so he does talk about how the binary model is an abstraction that is an approximation of reality. In other videos he treated it as though it be the hole story.
I cannot, for the life of me, match the pitch to the graph. Can I just not hear pitch at all? Can Dogen’s lessons get me up from zero to basic, or am I doomed?
I can't wait for Tokyo ben to start to officially acquire an Italian-like intonation. If that does happen, I will eventually have an impeccable accent when I speak Japanese. Is there a way to suppress the typical Italian singing intonation? The opera pitch? I wonder.
Ugh. This one's rough for me. I definitely notice the relative contour a lot more than I notice the overall drop. When I listened to the example on Lesson 4, I immediately noticed the drop in pitch after the first raised syllable, even though I had to pluck the notes on my guitar to figure out what the actual intervals were. My brain hears low high low, and I think it's going to take some training to hear it as low, high, slightly-less-high.
Japanese is my mother tongue but I was born and raised abroad. I never studied Japanese, I learn everything from my mom speaking. Your videos are really interesting because I've never realised that there were those pitch accents etc... But now, I'm overthinking about, when I pronounce a word, I become concious about "what's corrrect" or not... and I feel like I can't speak Japanese anymore! I I'm gonna stick to your comedy videos ;-)
So how important is pitch accent REALLY when learning Japanese? I'm seeing a lot of genuine fighting amongst the community, one saying it's important and one saying it's unnecessary and you can communicate fluently without it and will only hurt you while learning, better to spend time on grammar and vocab. Would context not take care of any pitch related confusion since Japanese is a very context heavy language? I'm moving to Tokyo in August and starting to learn soon but there doesn't seem to be a consensus on how important pitch really is. Some compare it to naturally acquired accents since school don't teach it and native aren't taught it normally. This seems like very top level and only something to learn once you're already fluent
The thing about pitch accent, is that, if you use the wrong pitch, japanese people will still understand you(but they will notice it), There are quite a lot of advanced learners who don't even know japanese has pitch. Each japanese dialect has its own pitch accent, but the most common Is the one spoken in Tokyo(and is probably the only one that has resources to learn from). I'd say you should learn the four pitch patterns, and each time you learn a new word, learn it with its pitch. Once you are advanced in japanese, you can now study the rules wich are really confusing in you don't know japanese yet.
@@Charly_dvorak It's easy to answer this with an example... All of the following are pronounced こうせい, and most of them have the same pitch accent: 後世 1 後生 1,0 公正 1 厚生 0 向性 0 恒星 0 攻勢 0 更正 0 更生 0 校正 0 構成 0 硬性 0 鋼製 0 高声 0
I would love to learn Japanese efficiently but I don’t know how to do so. Would anyone be able to direct me in the right direction? P:s I’ve found some information about the basics but I’m not certain what to do from this point.
I’ve only taken 1 college course on Japanese so far so I know some basic chit chat as well as all the kana, and am currently self studying kanji and more vocabulary... would these lessons from you course be helpful to a beginner like I or should I get a more robust understanding of Japanese first before trying phonetics or whatever this is called:) thanks
I didn't realize that people couldn't notice the shift in pitches for Japanese words. Since I began studying Japanese through auditory means (yes it was brutal because each audio CD was long as hell and I had no idea what the words I was saying looked like) but that was the very first thing I picked up on; the subtle changes in pitch and the stretching of certain sounds. Ironically, it was thanks to learning Japanese that allowed me to be able to pick up on rolling certain letters in Spanish when I entered high school. ^-^
「ひらがな」で書かれた「あいしょう(相性)」と「あいしょう(愛称)」を区別して発音することは、もちろん日本人にも無理なこと。 しかし、漢字で書かれた「相性」と「愛称」を、同じピッチアクセント(pitch accent)で発音する日本人は、まずいないと考えたほうがいい。 ということは、「相性」と「愛称」の意味的差異を日本人は、ピッチアクセント(pitch accent)の違いとして正確に把握しているということである。 となると、日本語を外国語として学習する人は「漢字」の習得が欠かせない、ということではないのか？ Of course, it is impossible for Japanese people to distinguish between "aisho(相性 )" and "aisho (愛称)" written in "hiragana". However, it is better to think that there are few Japanese who pronounce "相性" and "愛称" written in kanji with the same pitch accent. This means that the Japanese accurately grasp the semantic difference between "相性" and "愛称" as the difference in pitch accent. So, does that mean that those who study Japanese as a foreign language must learn "Kanji"?
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Remind me why I'm unconsciously repeating 相性が at 6 am
Ahahahahahaha i'm in the same situation, same time; what a coincidence man!
same but 4am here
I don't even know or want to learn japanese, i did it anyway and am just here for the memes
Ah, I see you're a man of Europe as well
(kidding, know that you could be in Africa too 🤡)
its a good thing you never know when youll meet a girl whos 相性が very good. Whos 愛称が cinnamon bun perhaps?
Next up, Dogen shows us how to edit wave forms and use the spectrograph to mix and master music...because of course he would.
Lmao 😅
I like when Dogen is looking at us emotionless during the recordings parts.
IPA is one of the most important things you can learn when learning a foreign language. I often wonder why it’s not taught as a primer to language early on in the educational system.
what’s ipa?
I agree to this. @holklus it's the International Phonetic Alphabet 😉
@@rantecruz1037 thanks. gonna check that out
[aiɕoꜜoga]
@Damon Jay
It's not taught because everyone hates it and adamantly refuses to learn it because yolo, who cares about pronunciation lol, too much work lol,
Which is fair....
I just started learning Japanese, half for fun, half for cv purposes. I was so happy last week for learning a handful of words and basic grammar, when I discovered your channel and saw the long road ahead. Overwhelming, but not disheartening! I hope someday I will be able to get to something as complex as pitch accents. Thank you for your content, it's honestly amazing and incredible how you make your videos so much fun!
I am 1 year into Japanese (ajatt) and the apparent complexity only motivates me to learn more ;D kinda to prove to myself that I can complete the challenge of learning all of this (like pitch accent)
I'm a Japanese teacher and sometimes I learn Japanese from him haha
Hahaha, nice to hear!😆
Did he just end on a cliffhanger
I think pitchhanger is more accurate
It looks like this is a small segment from a larger video out of one of his Patreon exclusive videos.
@@bitfreakazoid That IS what it is indeed!
Why is it 12:30am and I’m practicing intonation on Japanese words I don’t know?
これは知識じゃなくて感覚的にですが、おそらくこの｢相性が｣と｢紅生姜｣のpitch pattern は同じだと思う
だね
たしかに〜！
i know nothing about everything being said here. but i just ... stayed, watching the whole clip. i don’t know why ...
I've never thought of it as highs and lows anyway, I've always thought of words as having peaks and valleys like a mountain range.
This pitch analysis approach is incredible!
2:14
Dogen blinked at every 'ga'
これだけですごい勉強になったぞ...！
Whoa, how do you get that pitch spectrogram? 😮 That would be really useful for self-recording.
So if that's the pronunciation for 相性が and subsequently the one for 愛称が, then how do you pronounce "i生姜", the latest advancement in culinary technology from Apple?
This is prime Dogen humour right here
If I were to mention i生姜 from Apple, I'd pronounce it like 相性が because iPod (aipoddo) has the same pattern.
1:19 2:14 Dogen's face was like *"What am I doing here. Should I put an interesting face or not"* xD
It's interesting that some people able to recognize the subtle drop, if you're not used to it you probably can't.
Is the pitch going to be affected if you're speaking in Kanto, Kansai, or any other accents?
Why are you literally everywhere I go. What the fuck
To answer your question, yea other dialects have completely different pitch accent systems. Not just different pitch accent patterns for different words, but entirely different systems.
For example, the Kansai dialects have a pitch accent feature where the initial mora has a distinctly low or high tone, meaning you can have words like H-H-H or L-H-H. They also have pitch accent changes within one-mora words. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansai_dialect#Pitch_accent
Dogen's series only focuses on pitch accent in standard Japanese though.
I'm not sure if it's a matter of being "used to it" either, or if some people just notice small changes in pitch. I'm completely new to Japanese. I've learned about 20 words from a core 2k deck (mostly counting, ugh), but was immediately confused why I was hearing low-high-low on some words that are marked as low-high-high, and that was from day 1. Maybe the 5th or 6th word I went to double check if the card was correct.
I've also dabbled in music at a very amateur level, but can't easily recognize intervals by ear or anything. I actually had to check on my guitar to recognize how much smaller the drop was. (If I had to guess by ear, I would have placed it right in the middle, but really it's about 1/5 of the way on a couple examples I compared)
Are you gonna bring back 上級日本語：レッスン? i miss hearing the 今から日本語のレッスン行います lol
英語上手
as a japanese speaker, both 相性が&愛称が sound same and like 合い生姜 that means “with ginger” ngl. Maybe the last が sound needs more tone down so as to sounds normal.
Oh thank you for explaining this. I kept looking up words and it would say that it was heiban only to look up the pronunciation and have it sound like it was going down rather than up or flat. I was very confused
DUUUDE, Dogen-san voice is so natural and soothing that I didn't even noticed that he was speaking english until the end of the video
This is called downdrift right? A well known phonetic phenomenon crosslinguistically
Thank you for the teachings🙂 someday I will require this to improve my Japanese!
I love that you didn't pronounce dictionary the way the IPA said to.
This is above my pay grade.. Back I go to genki 1
thanks for the explanations, dogen-san
Arigatou
I never thought about this, I've been enlightened
Ah, so he does talk about how the binary model is an abstraction that is an approximation of reality.
In other videos he treated it as though it be the hole story.
相性と愛称はその手前の話でどっちの事言ってんのか判断してる気がする
I cannot, for the life of me, match the pitch to the graph. Can I just not hear pitch at all?
Can Dogen’s lessons get me up from zero to basic, or am I doomed?
I cant hear the pitch drop too...
I feel like with 相性が it’s often pronounced so fast that you can’t even tell the pitch
I can't wait for Tokyo ben to start to officially acquire an Italian-like intonation. If that does happen, I will eventually have an impeccable accent when I speak Japanese. Is there a way to suppress the typical Italian singing intonation? The opera pitch? I wonder.
あいしょうがのゲシュタルト崩壊
Ugh. This one's rough for me. I definitely notice the relative contour a lot more than I notice the overall drop. When I listened to the example on Lesson 4, I immediately noticed the drop in pitch after the first raised syllable, even though I had to pluck the notes on my guitar to figure out what the actual intervals were. My brain hears low high low, and I think it's going to take some training to hear it as low, high, slightly-less-high.
Oh hey I was learning about phonetics in one of my uni units what a coincidence
2:28 is this related to 「ありがとう」?
愛称って平板なの！？(非母アクセント話者)
Japanese is my mother tongue but I was born and raised abroad. I never studied Japanese, I learn everything from my mom speaking. Your videos are really interesting because I've never realised that there were those pitch accents etc... But now, I'm overthinking about, when I pronounce a word, I become concious about "what's corrrect" or not... and I feel like I can't speak Japanese anymore! I I'm gonna stick to your comedy videos ;-)
If you’re already fluent then it’s probably fine!
uuh, is there really program which can show my acual pitch? that would really help me to improve my pitch. what's the name of that program?
Would also love to have something like that
Someone told me about the program praat. It's probably an other program than what dogan uses, but it works perfectly fine for me
Thanks, I'll check it out!
Great hair style!
That's weird. For me, 愛称が and 相性が should sound in the same pattern.
The last case in the video sounds more like 愛妾が...
Hi, do you provide a pitch & pronunciation course?
Yes I do! Please see Patreon.com/dogen
Thank you!
The phrase is "not" aisouga. It is asoka.
So how important is pitch accent REALLY when learning Japanese? I'm seeing a lot of genuine fighting amongst the community, one saying it's important and one saying it's unnecessary and you can communicate fluently without it and will only hurt you while learning, better to spend time on grammar and vocab. Would context not take care of any pitch related confusion since Japanese is a very context heavy language?
I'm moving to Tokyo in August and starting to learn soon but there doesn't seem to be a consensus on how important pitch really is. Some compare it to naturally acquired accents since school don't teach it and native aren't taught it normally. This seems like very top level and only something to learn once you're already fluent
The thing about pitch accent, is that, if you use the wrong pitch, japanese people will still understand you(but they will notice it), There are quite a lot of advanced learners who don't even know japanese has pitch.
Each japanese dialect has its own pitch accent, but the most common Is the one spoken in Tokyo(and is probably the only one that has resources to learn from).
I'd say you should learn the four pitch patterns, and each time you learn a new word, learn it with its pitch. Once you are advanced in japanese, you can now study the rules wich are really confusing in you don't know japanese yet.
@@Charly_dvorak It's easy to answer this with an example...
All of the following are pronounced こうせい, and most of them have the same pitch accent:
後世 1
後生 1,0
公正 1
厚生 0
向性 0
恒星 0
攻勢 0
更正 0
更生 0
校正 0
構成 0
硬性 0
鋼製 0
高声 0
It's it just me or does the native sample sound like Google Translate? 🤔
It's probably just Forvo audio
@@bobfranklin2572 forvo audio sounds more natural
Ty
First time hearing Dogen speak English and I was surprised
今はドゲンさんが英語で話すことを聞こえる初めてです。びっくりしたね
初めてドゲンさんの英語を聞いてびっくりした。
@@hide_5069
ありがとうございます！まだ日本語の初心者です
@@coryellis1877
I'm glad to save you.
お役に立てて光栄です。
Me too. But what I'm learning English.
私もです。けど私が習っているのは英語です。
@@hide_5069 It's an honor to be of some use. I'm a beginner too, but in English.
あだ名 is also 'nickname'
I learned this from Moses McCormick
I would love to learn Japanese efficiently but I don’t know how to do so. Would anyone be able to direct me in the right direction?
P:s I’ve found some information about the basics but I’m not certain what to do from this point.
use busuu for starting out
大変申し訳ないのですが
本当に申し訳ないのですが…
マイクがオティンコにしか見えません
AV見過ぎ
草
As a Japanese person, I'm kinda glad that I don't have to learn this as second or third language....
I’ve only taken 1 college course on Japanese so far so I know some basic chit chat as well as all the kana, and am currently self studying kanji and more vocabulary... would these lessons from you course be helpful to a beginner like I or should I get a more robust understanding of Japanese first before trying phonetics or whatever this is called:) thanks
very intriguing ʕっ•ᴥ•ʔっ
What does 相性mean?
not the point of the video but i never noticed how blue his eyes are wtf
言われてみれば確かに自分も「相性が」と「愛称が」で別の発音を使ってますね
初めて気づいたけど正直全く気にしたこと無いｗ
ただ愛称を相性の発音で読む日本人も結構多い気がします。
たしかにそうかも
動画の２つめのアクセントをきくと、愛妾（おめかけさん）を思い浮かべた
俺同じで発音してしまってる
難しいな
サムネをみた瞬間に日本人の私が予想した内容
あい‐しょう【愛妾】気に入りのめかけ。
※めかけ＝１ 《目をかけるところから》正妻のほかに、愛し養う女性。二号。「―を囲う」
アクセントが変わることで、相性から愛妾になってしまうといいたいのかとおもった
あいしょうのことかとおもった。
Love ginger
Phonetics aside, Dogen the area around your eyes looks blue/grey af. Are you alright or is it some issue with the illumination?
What the damn hell, Japanese!
So des ne
@Dogen
いつも楽しみにみています。
ロイジェームスさんという方、ご存知ですか？
この方の日本語に関してDogenさんのコメントを聞いてみたいです。
ruclips.net/video/P5xV0vOALTs/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/4XDhkHa6sCc/видео.html
I thought that it was a chemistry video in the thumbnail, but it was worse...
Japanese phonetics
相性ラブどうげん
love ginger
愛しょうが
My last class of school is Japanese and when I get back, i saw this 😄
I am such a lucky person
I love Japanese❤️
P.s. I am Chinese 🤪
Gongaga
Bazoomba
It feels... unnatural to see him speaking English.
I didn't realize that people couldn't notice the shift in pitches for Japanese words. Since I began studying Japanese through auditory means (yes it was brutal because each audio CD was long as hell and I had no idea what the words I was saying looked like) but that was the very first thing I picked up on; the subtle changes in pitch and the stretching of certain sounds. Ironically, it was thanks to learning Japanese that allowed me to be able to pick up on rolling certain letters in Spanish when I entered high school. ^-^
「ひらがな」で書かれた「あいしょう(相性)」と「あいしょう(愛称)」を区別して発音することは、もちろん日本人にも無理なこと。
しかし、漢字で書かれた「相性」と「愛称」を、同じピッチアクセント(pitch accent)で発音する日本人は、まずいないと考えたほうがいい。
ということは、「相性」と「愛称」の意味的差異を日本人は、ピッチアクセント(pitch accent)の違いとして正確に把握しているということである。
となると、日本語を外国語として学習する人は「漢字」の習得が欠かせない、ということではないのか？
Of course, it is impossible for Japanese people to distinguish between "aisho(相性 )" and "aisho (愛称)" written in "hiragana".
However, it is better to think that there are few Japanese who pronounce "相性" and "愛称" written in kanji with the same pitch accent.
This means that the Japanese accurately grasp the semantic difference between "相性" and "愛称" as the difference in pitch accent.
So, does that mean that those who study Japanese as a foreign language must learn "Kanji"?
What the hell 😹 i am so early
His pronounciation is more beautiful than japanese. Excellent.
i was the guy who pushed the likes from 69 to 70 , forgive me
I’m uncomfortable hearing Dõgen speaking English tbh
I’m from Japan and hate British accent so much.
This is an American accent.
関東訛りを正しいと主張するのやめてほしい
？
たしかに、九州訛りも関西訛りも東北訛りもその他…
正しいことには変わらないですよね
標準語ならともかくw