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TIMESTAMPS: 4:03 intro starts 5:26 show starts, EAN updates, etc. 15:10 intro to Limited Atonement/Definite Redemption 23:08 Jeff's passion for NAD and the usual :) 27:02 proof texting & being challenged 32:19 salvation accomplished, not simply possible 38:20 Jesus knows His sheep 42:00 the characteristics on the atonement does Jesus die for the sin of unbelief? 50:30 the scope of the atonement 55:04 Matt 20:28, Acts 13:28, 20:28, John 17:9, Luke 19:10, 1 Peter 3:18, Gal 1:3-4, 1 Tim. 3:14, and more 1:06:57 Q: what about "the whole world" being saved? 1:09:40 Superchats and closing comments
1Jn 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. 1Jn 2:3 And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
RC Sproul said something along the lines of “Excepting universalists, every Christian believes in limited atonement. The question is, who limits it? Does God limit the atonement of his own free will, or does man put the limitation on Gods work.”
So, let me start with... I am still sorting what I believe versus was I was taught to believe. So, I believe, or at least taught, that Christ died for everyone. But that salvation is a gift that we choose to accept or not. However, God does know who will and will not accept that gift, however that option is still on the table for them. After that I get a headache.
You are right to get a headache. Calvinism believes God determined all things. It determines who will and will not accept Christ. And God decrees all the sin every man and woman will commit. Then will send the person who commits sin, per God's decree, to Hell for eternity... This is *Not* in the pages of scriptures.
@Zaloomination *Yeh, So ? I want to make certain to clear up any confusion she may have of Calvinism.... So Tell me. Where in the Bible does God predestine people to Hell and Heaven ? It is not in Romans 9, so where is it?*
@@biagiomaffettone1497 despite what you mistakenly believe, Romans 9 is but a tiny sampling of the vast tapestry of scriptures across both testaments that support God graciously choosing to regenerate and adopt some rebellious sinners and passing over others.
@ination *We both believe that God is sovereign. And can accomplish his will. You can not claim those events for your own. If you do you are delusional. So, if I am mistaken then you should easily provide evidence that God does decreed some for Heaven and much more for Hell. So, save your Calvinistic rhetoric and provide unmistakable proof..... Why do you Calvinists want to send so many people to Hell ??*
Yes!! So looking forward to what God is doing in Iowa! Our church has been praying for this! We will be there. Our Pastor is in Uganda visiting and speaking to churches there but we will be there. Thank you Pastor Jeff and Zach! Look forward to hearing you speak in person.
Reading the comments it becomes very obvious the doctrines of grace are damaging to man's pride. My reaction was fearful finding this doctrine in the scriptures. Today it has become such a comfort and motivating for my Christian life.
@@WinkenSmile It sounded like you implied those that didn't track with this video were dealing with pride. I accept your point, but I think it is inaccurate. Thanks for clarifying. My response was confusion when I usually find these guys very clear on other matters.
Calvinism is the opposite of motivating. It keeps men in sin because God does it all. There's nothing you can do to change your fate. That is hopeless if you're not a chosen one. Cmon
I’ve bought and tried 2 months of the Ion layer. It did absolutely nothing for me. It’s a bit pricey even with the discount code… take my 2 cents or leave it. That’s my experience with it…
These brothers are excellent teachers and properly divide the word of God!!!🙏❤️. I highly recommend them and their ministry as God is using them to do great things for the Kingdom of God:)❤️
17:35 how can God not be free if we have free will? why can't you comprehend they can both be true? Logic shows that God allowing free will is more just and sovereign
Precisely my point always. I don't see how God giving man the ability to reject or embrace Him somehow destroys His sovereignty. If anything, it makes it more beautiful that God knows all those choices before you even make them (without forcing you down a path), and still manages to fulfill His will regardless of all the appearance of "chaos" to us humans. With this atonement thing as well, even going back to the sacrificial law before Christ, forgiveness of sin requires an acknowledgement of said sin by the people being atoned for. God can choose to just outright pardon sin that is unrepentant if He wills it, but the most common and accepted criteria for forgiveness is repentance. Jesus did die for the sins of everyone which is why it is a gift. The only requirement to accept said gift is a surrender to Him and acknowledgement that you even need the gift in the first place which requires laying down your pride and boastfulness. That is why it isn't some kind of work that falls under the category of boasting as well, if you're boasting about how great you are for recognizing how wicked you are and in need of God's saving grace you are, then you're already contradicting the idea of saving faith and repentance in itself. Everything explained above is 100% within the realm of God being perfectly sovereign and in control of everything from your repentance all the way to your salvation and doesn't even contradict the sovereignty of God in the slightest in my understanding of what God tells us. God 100% has the ability and the power to just outright force people to do anything He wills, but out of his perfect holiness and justice, He gives humanity the ability to choose Him or sin. From the garden to today it is still that same choice. If there wasn't a choice there wouldn't have been any need for the tree in the garden. To say God forced that rebellion upon Adam and Eve would be to accuse God of orchestrating and forcing man to sin through puppeteering Satan which is a common atheist arguing point that I find impossible to defend with a purely 100% Calvinist theology. Don't get me wrong, I think a purely 100% Arminian view of scripture is heresy. I think Calvin was right about almost everything, I just think he took it a bit too far to the point that it contradicts other points of scripture too much and even lead to making God the originator of sin itself just for the sake of hyper-focusing on what the word "sovereignty" means. As if giving humanity a choice to love or reject Him means He isn't in control of all things anymore or doesn't have the power to force humans to love him somehow?.. God's love is perfect. His justice is perfect. God's holiness is perfect. God's sovereignty is perfect. All these attributes mesh together, no need to hyper focus on one as greater than any other to the point where you're contradicting His other beautifully perfect attributes just for the sake of trying to hold together a proposed idea that is likely mostly correct.
First, we need to define what free will is. Secondly, I fail to see any Scriptural warrant for having to make room for autonomous human will. In fact, Scripture seems to suggest the exact opposite. One of the key themes we see throughout Scripture is God changing the heart of man in order to accomplish His will. He places certain motivations and intentions into man's heart, such that it wills to accomplish God's divine purpose. Salvation is no different. I don't even see how this point can be considered debatable.
@@heartofalegend you are conflating God making some things happen with Him making ALL things happen. Scripture most certainly suggests free will by asking us to choose between two paths. Example is ezekiel 18.20The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Much more in the chapter but this destroys the assertion that I am subject to Adam's sin plus it shows we can choose which path, NOT be a slave to whatever nature we have
@@heartofalegend this verse here paints a clear picture Ez18:30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!” Have a great day, brother
@@rocketsurgeon1746Yeah. Hosea also speaks in similar language. The Bible speaks of humans going against God's will constantly. God allows it to happen out of love. Preserving the ability for humans to have a choice so that love is actual love while still having complete control over His Will and plan. This paints a much more beautiful picture of just how sovereign God is than simply just God forcing every human hand (including sin yikes..) as simply as just writing a storybook and having all the actors play it out. God could absolutely do that and does have that power, but the bible seems to be clear that God allows rejection to bring out His glory in the devotion of the ones who love Him. All in all, I find it much more beautiful and amazing that God manages to bring forth His plan regardless of people trying to go against it all the time. It's much more amazing and impressive of Him than simply pushing around pawns in a predefined fully scripted storybook.
*Hey Apologia why don't you invite Dr Flowers on your show. We would all like to see that. You can win him over with your superior arguments and Biblical insight*
@@ryanhart3159 Can you show me which verses talk of Limited Atonement?, Irresistible Grace? and Unconditional election.. Without using mans philosophies Give me the truth
The unity of the Triune God is on the line in how we understand Salvation. The Father elects and the Son Dies for the elect, and the Spirit regenerates the elect. Any other system puts the Persons of the Godhead at odds with each other, with the Father choosing some and the Son dying for all and the Spirit only regenerating some. God's purpose in salvation was accomplished in the life, death, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus. Not one drop of His Precious blood was spilled in vain.
@rocketsurgeon1746 so He paid for the sins of all ?? If so, all will go to heaven because all sin has been paid for even the sin of unbelief. Anyone for whom Christ has died and paid for their sins God will not judge. So you believe universalism, which is unbiblical.
@@rocketsurgeon1746only non-calvinists ignore context when it comes to ALL and WHOLE WORLD. The johannium corpus alone uses the term "kosmos" at least 14 different times and never it is rarely used to mean "every single person who has lived and ever will live."
@@isaiahanddakotamartinez7730 read the Bible. 1 john 2:2And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. read it for yourself and stop listening to calv only teaching
It is a false dichotomy to say that people can only believe in Limited Atonement or Universal Atonement. There can be Conditional Atonement at well which is consistent throughout the Bible. We read God say very frequently “if you do x I will do x”. Y’all don’t have to believe in it but there are other consistent options we can find in Scripture. Talking about “limitation” may be missing the real issue
Well in that case it is certainly limited. It’s limited by how righteous the person being offered salvation is. You’re saying it’s unlimited in its offer but limited by the knowledge, intellect, information, and righteousness that each person has. Even if you think everybody gets the same exact chance (which they obviously don’t considering that probably 10’s of thousands of native Americans and many other people groups have died without ever even hearing the gospel) it would still come down to them making the right decision. Which is the definition of righteousness. Obviously it feels good for us to feel like we made a better decision than everyone else but the truth is that I would have used my freewill to reject Christ forever and ever just like everyone else who affected by sin including the fallen angels. Your view is that people are kind of bad and when God offers salvation, some make wise decisions, some make poor decisions and some never even hear the gospel. My view is that all of humanity is so wicked and depraved that they hate God to the point of eternal rejection no matter how many chances He gives us. But out of love and mercy He removes the hearts of stone out of a number as innumerable as the sand on the seashore and gives them a heart of flesh. (Ezekiel 36) Beyond that it is His holy and just right to condemn whom He wills and have mercy on whom He wills. He doesn’t even offer salvation to the fallen angels and I don’t see you up and arms about that. They’re sinful creatures just like us. Do you think satan has enough good in his heart to love God if he so chooses? Of course not. God doesn’t force us to be evil. But He is sovereign over even His sinful creatures and can give them new hearts if He pleases. We’re in no position to make demands.
@@quinnpeterson2716 woah dude, I was only arguing against the false dichotomy presenting another option found in Scripture, never did I say if it is what I believe or not. At least address the issue before assuming and creating your beloved strawman 😅 triggered much I see. All I know is we are meat puppets moving for the -entertainment- glory of a supernatural being who just made some of us to live, enjoy life in sin only to be thrown hopelessly into the deepest parts of hell. In our lifetime we will hear about how He died for some around us but we should know better that to hope in that so called “gospel” cause hey, that Jesus didn’t atone for many of us. So even though Scripture says that God makes His appeal through preachers, and even though I may hear that so-called “powerful gospel” it is not powerful enough to give us faith. Heck, your so called “gospel” doesnt even let me know if I was chosen or not to be saved so, I guess… I am…? I mean, I feel like I am. But then again I could devout my whole life to your Calvinism and in the end I could be a reprobate only living under an evil delusion created by your God to use me so He could save His precious elect. In the end, why would you care about what I say or respond? I’m just a meat puppet living to entertain your God who may or may not care about me. I mean, I don’t know. Do you know if your God cares about me? Do you really know if He sent His Son to die for me and atone for my sins so I could be saved? Do you love me?
@@quinnpeterson2716 interesting, it seems someone didn’t like my response to you cause it all got erased. No worries, here goes again. So, it seems you got triggered from my response cause I only was arguing against the false dichotomy and included a third option which seems to be consistent throughout the bible. I never mentioned or wanted to imply what I believe, you simply assumed. At least address the issue I pointed to before you state your deal. Still, I don’t know why you would even be bothered by anything I say. All I know is that we are meat puppets living to -amuse- glorify a supernatural being who just puts some of us to live a whole life of sin only to be thrown hopelessly into eternal damnation because of the conditions He determined for us to live in. But funny thing is that we will hear of a so called powerful “gospel” that seems to not be powerful enough to give faith to the mayority of us. So most of us should just ignore it cause it’s not really for most of us, only for the few -special- elect people. The other hilarious thing is that I may think I’m reprobate but there is no way for me to know for sure. I mean, I could dedicate my life to your gospel but that wont make me any more righteous if I was not one of the -special- elect people. The funniest of all things is that even though God uses preachers to spread His message to everyone and as the Scriptures say “make His appeal through [them]” for all to be saved, He doesn’t seem to love us all or atone for all of us which kind of seems like a shady thing to do but hey, “who am I, oh man?” 😅 So this all brings a couple of questions: Why do you even care about what I respond? How do you know if I am saved or reprobate? Could you sincerely tell me that God loves me? Would God let me be burned in damnation for eternity if He loves me? Do you love me?
@@quinnpeterson2716 interesting, it seems someone didn’t like my response to you cause it all got erased. No worries, here goes again. So, it seems you got triggered from my response cause I only was arguing against the false dichotomy and included a third option which seems to be consistent throughout the bible. I never mentioned or wanted to imply what I believe, you simply assumed. At least address the issue I pointed to before you state your deal. Still, I don’t know why you would even be bothered by anything I say. All I know is that we are meat puppets living to -amuse- glorify a supernatural being who just puts some of us to live a whole life of sin only to be thrown hopelessly into eternal damnation because of the conditions He determined for us to live in. But funny thing is that we will hear of a so called powerful “gospel” that seems to not be powerful enough to give faith to the mayority of us. So most of us should just ignore it cause it’s not really for most of us, only for the few -special- elect people. The other hilarious thing is that I may think I’m reprobate but there is no way for me to know for sure. I mean, I could dedicate my life to your gospel but that wont make me any more righteous if I was not one of the -special- elect people. The funniest of all things is that even though God uses preachers to spread His message to everyone and as the Scriptures say “make His appeal through [them]” for all to be saved, He doesn’t seem to love us all or atone for all of us which kind of seems like a shady thing to do but hey, “who am I, oh man?” 😅 So this all brings a couple of questions: Why do you even care about what I respond? How do you know if I am saved or reprobate? Could you sincerely tell me that God loves me? Would God let me be burned in damnation for eternity if He loves me? Do you love me?
@@quinnpeterson2716 interesting, it seems someone didn’t like my response to you cause it all got erased. No worries, here goes again. So, it seems you got triggered from my response cause I only was arguing against the false dichotomy and included a third option which seems to be consistent throughout the bible. I never mentioned or wanted to imply what I believe, you simply assumed. At least address the issue I pointed to before you state your deal. Still, I don’t know why you would even be bothered by anything I say. All I know is that we are meat puppets living to -amuse- glorify a supernatural being who just puts some of us to live a whole life of sin only to be thrown hopelessly into eternal damnation because of the conditions He determined for us to live in. But funny thing is that we will hear of a so called powerful “gospel” that seems to not be powerful enough to give faith to the mayority of us. So most of us should just ignore it cause it’s not really for most of us, only for the few -special- elect people. The other hilarious thing is that I may think I’m reprobate but there is no way for me to know for sure. I mean, I could dedicate my life to your gospel but that wont make me any more righteous if I was not one of the -special- elect people. The funniest of all things is that even though God uses preachers to spread His message to everyone and as the Scriptures say “make His appeal through [them]” for all to be saved, He doesn’t seem to love us all or atone for all of us which kind of seems like a shady thing to do but hey, “who am I, oh man?” 😅 So this all brings a couple of questions: Why do you even care about what I respond? How do you know if I am saved or reprobate? Could you sincerely tell me that God loves me? Would God let me be burned in damnation for eternity if He loves me? Do you love me?
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 04:19 🌱 *The series "Is Calvinism True?" continues, focusing on Limited Atonement in this episode.* 07:01 🌺 *Limited Atonement questions whether Jesus' atonement was potential or efficacious, perfect, and accomplishing God's purpose.* 08:41 🌟 *Partnering with Apologia Studios through All Access supports their ministry, enabling content creation and outreach efforts.* 11:11 💡 *Abolition bills, including one in Iowa, are being pursued with legislative support, requiring financial assistance and public engagement.* 17:01 📖 *Being Calvinist doesn't necessarily denote allegiance to John Calvin; it signifies adherence to particular theological views, such as the nature of man and God's grace in salvation.* 20:15 🕊️ *The Triune God's active role in salvation is highlighted, with the Father's election, the Son's redemption, and the Spirit's sanctification.* 22:24 💬 *When discussing Calvinism, it's important to address verses that seem problematic and understand their context.* 23:19 🤔 *Examining personal beliefs against scripture can resolve conflicts between tradition and interpretation.* 26:19 💡 *Exploring personal health and well-being through methods like NAD treatments can be beneficial.* 27:15 ⚠️ *Proof texting, while common, requires careful consideration of context to avoid misinterpretation.* 30:17 💬 *Understanding the biblical view of the atonement and its purpose is crucial in discussions about Calvinism.* 32:06 📖 *The question of whether Jesus accomplished individual salvation or merely made it possible is central to debates about Calvinism.* 33:54 ❓ *Examining the nature of the atonement helps clarify beliefs about salvation and God's sovereignty.* 35:17 🤔 *Personalizing the atonement leads to questioning whether it was for a particular group or for all humanity.* 36:42 🔍 *"Limited atonement" refers to a qualitative limitation, focusing on who the atonement is for, rather than a quantitative limitation of its efficacy.* 39:57 🐑 *Scripture distinguishes between those for whom Jesus laid down his life (the sheep) and those who will face damnation (the goats), highlighting the particularity of the atonement.* 40:24 📖 *The doctrine of Limited Atonement is being discussed, emphasizing the biblical context, including the concept of the Book of Life and God's election before the foundation of the world.* 41:47 🤔 *John Owen's "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ" provides a comprehensive treatment of the atonement, challenging the idea of a general atonement for all and suggesting it logically leads to universalism.* 45:34 💬 *Unbelief is considered a sin according to scripture, raising questions about the efficacy of atonement if Christ died for all sins but some end up in Hell due to unbelief.* 49:22 ⚖️ *If Christ paid for all sins, why are people punished for eternity in Hell, especially for unbelief, which is also a sin? This questions the justice of God and raises issues with the doctrine of universal atonement.* 52:11 🌍 *Affirmation of God's salvation for people from every tribe, tongue, and nation, while acknowledging the particularity of God's salvific love for His chosen people.* 54:29 🔍 *Tension arises when tradition conflicts with clear biblical teachings, such as the definite redemption and limited atonement, challenging believers to let the text speak for itself.* 58:58 🏛️ *Paul's courtroom language highlights the themes of justification and condemnation, emphasizing God's role as the ultimate judge.* 59:38 💬 *Paul challenges the idea of condemnation for those for whom Jesus died, emphasizing Christ's intercession and the impossibility of condemnation.* 01:00:48 🙏 *Jesus' intercession for believers is highlighted as a key aspect of their security and redemption.* 01:01:56 💪 *The connection between redemption and intercession underscores the ongoing work of Christ on behalf of believers, ensuring their security.* 01:07:39 🔒 *John MacArthur argues for limited atonement based on biblical evidence, challenging the notion of a universal atonement and emphasizing God's sovereignty in salvation.* 01:16:44 🛡️ *Heritage Defense provides legal defense for homeschooling families, offering support and representation in case of legal issues.* 01:17:25 🔪 *Amtac Blades, created by legendary Navy SEAL Bill Rapier, are highly durable and effective tools for wilderness activities and self-defense.* 01:19:30 💰 *Support the ministry efforts of End Abortion Now financially and by getting involved in their mission to end abortion.* Made with HARPA AI
Amen brothers!!!🙏❤️. When we bring these truths to their logical conclusion, it is plainly clear to see. Brothers and sisters believe what the scriptures say NOT man!
I think it's important to define belief. I know many self proclaimed Christians who say they "believe" yet they have not died to themselves and turned to Christ. They continue to indulge in sin and claim salvation. When someone is truly saved they produce a certain kind of fruit. And as the famous saying "by their fruits you will know them". So I think explaining that belief isn't just an atmospheric thought but an APPLICATION of it as well. You have to open yourself completely to God in every single area of your life. You have to let him in. If someone is not truly doing that then ..... how can you be saved when you keep pushing your savior away? You acknowledge his existence... ok good even demons do that. It's more than just acknowledgment. Also 2 seemingly opposing things can exist at the same exact time. For example you can love and also hate the same person at the same time. I dont find such a hard time to believe that we have free will but also God can intercede with his own free will at times. And that ultimately since he is all knowing- he knows where all the paths lead.... that doesn't mean that God is using us like barbie dolls. And that also doesn't mean that we have all the free will of the universe. God exists and he keeps things from getting too derailed but he does allow us our own sovereignty to an extent. Ultimately he is the only 100% soverign being. So yes he offers us salvation but he gives us the choice. Just how he gave the choice to Adam and Eve. We choose to obey or deny. You can choose what life you want to live but ultimately the day and time you die is already written. How you get there is your choice. But how things will end is already written.
It may "be written" but how do you explain the names of those who take the mark being "blotted out of the Lamb's book of life"? (I assume you know where to find this passage) that is a clear cut demonstration of a person making a choice that damns his otherwise saved soul.
@@lalonguecarabine4952 Revelation 13:8 refutes that point because it says all whose names were not found in the book of life from the foundation of the world. The crux of free will and Calvinism hinges upon whether the writing of the names beforehand were pure election or foreknowledge of man's free will or a "hypostatic union" of the two.
@@lalonguecarabine4952 Nope don't know where to find this imagined verse. If you know where it is please cite it cause I can't find it. I find some that says their names were not found, or I will never blot out.. but where it say He blots it out. Except in Psalms 69:28 which says: may they be blotted them out.. but that has nothing to do with the mark. I do not believe God writes a name in the Lambs book of life and then blots it out, and have found no evidence that He does. So if you know where to find it please let me know. If you cannot then your argument is moot. If you are going to make an argument like this you really should verify what you are saying is actually supported by scripture.. just a suggestion of course.
The most straightforward, simple yet technical definition of saving faith as described in the Bible I think is found in Hebrews 11:6, "Now without faith it is impossible to please God, since the one who draws near to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." So, saving faith requires: 1. Believing God exists. 2. Believing that if you seek Him, then He will reward you will His grace. 3. Seeking Him. Every person who sought Jesus in the Gospels and was told that their faith saved them, they all demonstrated this. We must respond to the gospel of Jesus by seeking God in belief of who He is and what He will do, then we will be saved. Simple. And it's a free choice available for anyone and everyone. God wants to save everyone, but some aren't willing (Matt. 23:37).
@@bilboswagginz2808 Where not the people who followed Jesus in John 6 seeking Him? Yet in the end they all departed except the 12. Since grace is unmerited favor you have made it merited by putting a requirement on it. If God didn't draw those He has chosen none would seek Him as they all love their sin more than God. If Jesus wants to save everyone why did He say he prayed not for the world for for those the Father chose out of the world? John 17:9 If your will is free why did Jesus say if you stay in His word you will be made free? John 8:31-36 The Jews who claimed they were free where living under the heel of Rome at the time. They like you only imagine themselves to be free. If you have saving faith, did God bless you with it or did you conjure it up all by yourself? According to my bible it is the gift of God and not of yourself. Ephesians 2:8 Hope this helps you to reconsider your position on whether you have freewill or not. Also on whether you can conjure up saving faith without the Father deciding to draw you & granting you faith.
Goodness, Apologia is doing something right for the comment section to be this.......'encouraging' right as the video drops. 😅 seems totally legit & above board. Thank you Jeff & Zach for your lesson today & your additional insights. God is Sovereign over salvation and Jesua died for the sins of his own
There are 3 sections in John 17, and when Jesus prays in John 17:6, “those whom the Father gave Him” is referencing Jesus’s disciples - context is key. Calvin’s commentary on Isaiah 53 - the “many” means “all people.” When Matthew and Mark said “many,” they meant what the Isaiah meant - “many“ means “all people.” Christ can die for all people AND the limitation be placed on the application, which makes the most sense of the entire canon of scripture.
No, Jesus said “all who the Father gives me” will come to him and that the Fathers will is that of all he has given him he should lose nothing. He then said he dies for his sheep in John 10 and that his sheep hear his voice and follow him and tells those not believing “but you don’t believe because you are not of my sheep”. Because, as Jesus said in John 6:65 “No one can come to me unless it has been granted him from the Father”. Trying to explain away predestination and election to where it gives the sovereignty of salvation to men is as silly as it is futile. Luke made it even more clear in Acts 13:48 when he said of those being saved “and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed”. God’s doctrine of election is all throughout scripture. Jesus died for his Bride, his sheep, the ones given to him by the Father. Just as he teaches us and the Fathers will is that Jesus loses none of them. He has not and he will not lose a single sheep that the Father gave to him..Unlike the Arminian belief that Jesus loses most of the people he died for.
We also know that when Jesus says “all who the Father gives to me will come to me” he isn’t only talking about his disciples because they had already came to him..but it would be a silly statement if he was only talking to the crowd about 11 people. “All who the Father gives me will come to me” that also proves irresistible Grace.
@@heartofalegend That’s a fair question, and I don’t know if scripture explicitly answers it, though I think some texts may provide implicit information… maybe to make 2 Corinthians 5:18-20 possible? Maybe that since God desires all to be saved, He made a way for all people to respond to Him by faith? I think there are several available possibilities, but I’m trying to be open to what the entire canon says about the nature of the atonement… and it appears the application is limited (John 6:37; 10:11,15; Matt 7:21-23) rather than the extent (1 John 2:2; 1 Tim 2:5-6; 2 Peter 3:9) when all the biblical data is accounted for.
@@shawnglass108 With your words, you’ve demonstrated your understanding within this conversation is elemental. I believe in election and predestination, though it’s likely I understand these doctrines differently than you… also, I’m not an Arminian. There’s wisdom to be found in understanding someone’s perspectives before critiquing them. (I say all this with respect and brotherly love 🙏🏼)
I don't see God being wrong for choosing to save some because He loves them more than others ( I believe He is under no obligation to save anyone). What I have trouble understanding why God would determine Abominable Things to glorify Himself. Especially when He had Perfect Glory w/o sin in the Trinity. Is God more glorified by the punishment of Abominable sins instead of a sinless world determined by Him?
The Bible is clear 1 John 2:2 KJV: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Limited atonement is one of the most heretical and blasphemous doctrines within the TULIP.
@@Gaoda-p4yhe's young in his faith. He isn't considering that people are already in eternity at this very moment. People that rejected God, people that had a chance to repent and chose not to.
Revelation 3.20-21 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
All the Leighton Flowers people in the comments obviously dont see the constant strawmen arguments he throws around. Still waiting to see Leighton Flowers exegete the passages he proof texts properly.
Proverbs 16:Proverbs 16:4 ESV [4] The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. Isaiah 43:1-4 ESV [1] But now thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine. [2] When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you. [3] For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. I give Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in exchange for you. [4] Because you are precious in my eyes, and honored, and I love you, I give men in return for you, peoples in exchange for your life. What more do you guys want to prove GOD is sovereign and he does to HIS wills good pleasure. GOD has a plan and HE is providentualy doing it.
@@cassiebennet4262here's an example, the argument that in Calvinism man has no free will. This is a straw man, Calvinists do not believe we lack free will, but instead that in our fallen sinful state we cannot choose to do good, only evil. Unless God influences our lives we cannot do good. Now this position in Calvinism is not saying we have no free will but instead that our free will is automatically geared towards evil continually, what evil we choose to do is completely our choice. In our fallen state we can choose at least in some situations on our own not to partake in certain evil/sinful things if we are just not into it, but apart from God we cannot do good. God influences both the righteous and the wicked in order for us to do good. It's not that Calvinists believe we lack free will but instead that we lack the desire or the will to do good on our own, big difference!
In this passage from Acts, how come Peter and Silas didn't explain TULIP to the jailer? Why did he go straight to believe in Jesus and you will be saved? Was Peter not a good calvinist? 29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. 34 The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God-he and his whole household.
How do you know they didn't? Please tell me what this phrase means and exactly what they said if you can, if you were there. "Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house." Remember Peter agreed with the teachings of Paul and equated his teachings with scripture. And Paul certainly taught the doctrines of grace as did Calvin.
@@fuzzycounsellor9147 *You are right Paul taught the doctrine of grace. Calvin taught the doctrine of damnation. Where most of humanity is decreed to go to Hell before they were even born. And they have no ability to hear the word of God... My friend you need to reconsider your man made Theology*
@@biagiomaffettone1497 Just consider how many people lived and died without an opportunity to follow Yahweh before Jesus was born and even after....God chose 1 small family out of all the pagan families of the world, which became a tiny nation, out of all the mighty nations of the world. All those tens or hundreds of millions of people that lived and died without ever hearing about Yahweh. None of them had an chance to hear the word of God. Just think about that logically. Even after Christ was born and ascended, how many people lived without hearing about Jesus. You still have to deal with the fact that most people that have lived and died haven't had the chance to hear the word of God.
Why are people in hell for sins that Christ paid for? It's simple Jeff, they are in hell for their sins for which they rejected the payment for. Jesus offered them a way out but they chose to live their lives separate from Him. You're conflating the finished work of the cross with application. It's a conditional application. If atonement automatically grant eternal life and granted only to the elects, then you would have people who are born saved before they even believe. Ephesians 2:3 "among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
When Jesus said "it is finished" He didn't say what the "it" was. The doctrine using the phrase "finished work on the cross" eisegetically infers that all sins, past, present and future were paid for in a literal sense. This is not how the atonement works.
That verse in Ephesians doesn't support your argument, all it means is that we the elect were saved from eternity past according to the council of God AND applied at a moment in time.
@@hansmo8282 1) It ended the Old Covenant. This is explained in Heb 9. 2) It serves as the ultimate act of love. No greater love than a man lay down his life for his friend. 3) It serves as a wedding proposal. We love Him because He first loved us. 4) We accept His proposal by following His example into death. 5) it serves as a substitution of the debt that man owes. It is not the literal payment. 6) It supports the law because the creator of the law is justified substituting the actual punishment (2nd death to sinners) while simultaneously forgiving sinners. The reason is because even though the letter of the law is NOT upheld the Spirit of the Law is upheld. Saints die to themselves and live for Christ. They are new creatures. And, Christ gave Himself up to prove that the law is precious and not to be ignored. And, if a believer continues in sin then there is no longer a sacrifice available for them (Heb 10:26-39). That means the payment wasn't the actual fine but a sub. and that God is truly forgiving men of sin...and is justified putting that debt back on them if they keep sinning. Parable of the 10,000 talents.
Yes! Just as the mortal high priest made atonement not for every nation but for the nation of Israel, our Great high priest perfectly and forever intercedes not for every person in the world but for his elect called out of the world. I wasn't satisfied with their answer to the "whole world" objection. I frame it as jesus died for the world meaning individuals in nations not limited to his chosen nation Israel, is that what you think?
@@Zaloomination The Greek word, "kosmos" is the word for "the world" (as well as 6 other possibilities). But the word, "kosmos" seems to be highly dependent upon the context the word is in, rather than a strict meaning. Like in John 3:16, "kosmos" seems to be in the context of God the Father actually giving His Son up for "the world". But in the totality of scripture all together, it seems as though, "the world" are all of God's people, the believing ones, AND those who have been and have yet to come. That, "kosmos" has a non-strict usage of the word, "all". "All" of who? That when scripture talks about groups of impersonal things, "all" means "all". But when scripture talks about personal things (people), then categories, classes, and groups are described. Thus... "For God so loved the world...ALL HIS PEOPLE...(a category of people)..." John 3:16 "...Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world...ALL THOSE THE FATHER GAVE TO THE SON...(a category of people)!" John 1:29 "And He said to them, "Go into all the world...EVERYWHERE...(impersonal category)." Mark 16:15 (Mark 16:15 is about location rather than people, because "in all people" is inappropriate on multiple levels.) Hope this helps. : )
@@Zaloomination (My answer to your question is the last sentence.) The Greek word "kosmos", has about six different translations, one of them being, "the world". There are words like, "theopneustos" which have a definitive set meaning: "God Breathed". But the word, "kosmos" seems to be highly dependent upon the context surrounding it. From my understanding, in Scripture, the word, "all" is highly dependent upon personal or impersonal subjects. If impersonal, then "all" literally means all. But if personal, like people, then "all" is referring to a group, category, or class. Same thing with the word, "kosmos" or "the world". In John 3:16, "For God so loved the world...ALL HIS PEOPLE...(because "world" may be referring to people, and we know from all of scripture God cares for His people above others.)" In Mark 16:15, "Go into all the world...EVERYWHERE...(as World in this context is referring to location rather than exclusively people.)" And in Luke 11:50, "So that the blood of all the prophets shed since the foundation of the world...THE CREATION OF THE PLANET...(is actually talking about the physical Planet itself, not a set or group of people)..." In the Book of John we see a lot of personal context with the word, "kosmos" referring to people, because the entire book is about the person, Jesus Christ, the Son of God. So, to answer your question, "kosmos" seems to be like the word, "all". Rather than having a very set specific definition, "kosmos" seems to be highly dependent upon the context that it's being used for.
@@biagiomaffettone1497 You people abuse scripture to say John 6 is only for the Jews or as some synergists say, only for the disciples. Which creates complete dung inconsistency throughout the rest of scripture. It’s only your provie folk who create eisegesis with this text. The irony 🤦♂️
Calvinism is taught in Church. And, OSAS is a derivative of the P of TULIP. OSAS is possibly the most popular doctrine on Salvation in Evangelical Churches.
Thank you for the clear way you explained all this. Even in the beginning around 16:00 how you explained how we don't follow a man named Calvin it is a historical shorthand for a system of beliefs derived from the scriptures, especially pertaining to the nature of man and the nature of God's grace. Thank you!
I became a Calvinist before I ever even read John Calvin or RC Sproul. So nobody can use that insult on me. I read the Bible, saw Calvinism. Then I came across John Calvin and other reformers and I was like oh wow I guess the way I see scripture is Calvinism.
The Bible is Truth, read and study and know your Bible, do not follow any man or listen to any man and take what he sais as absolute truth, even if he uses scriptures and is called teacher. Seek, search, study and pray the Holy Spirit leads you to all Truth.
Who are those that turn to him in humility and faith? Those chosen before the foundation of the world. Take heart brothers and sisters, he won’t cast off those who come to him for divine help. In fact, He ordains and promises it. How else could God promise such things to sinners? My God is in the heavens and he does all that he pleases. He works ALL things according to the council of His will; to the praise of His glorious grace!
@@ChristisLord2023 God's saves us by grace through faith... His requirement is that we have to believe to have grace poured upon us.. He demands it.. And he has given us the ability to chose... Deu: 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 *I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live*
@@joshuakuderik6874 God has given us the ability to chose... Due: 30:19 *I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live*
*Hey Apologia !!! why don't you invite Dr Flowers on your show. We would all like to see that. You can win him over with your superior arguments and Biblical insight*
@@biagiomaffettone1497 Well, there is a great deal that I find harmful in his teaching on salvation. I think he is inadvertently applying human attributes on a God that exists outside of time, space, and matter resulting in the diminishing of God and the elevation of man. Most importantly his views I find most deceived reduce the perfect sacrifice of Jesus into something that requires a decision from man to be made effectual. So for those who follow his thinking on salvation matters, Jesus sacrifice is not enough. I think that those who take up this line of thinking are continually doing mental gymnastics to make God into something they can pallet, rather than trusting in an almighty God even when we don't understand the why.
@@bayardblack4930 1)(((Well, there is a great deal that I find harmful in his teaching on salvation. I think he is inadvertently applying human attributes on a God that exists outside of time, space, and matter resulting in the diminishing of God and the elevation of man. ))) We both agree that the Bible is the standard we have and this is what we need to look to. So we don’t have to worry about God being outside of time and space. To reason beyond what the Bible says is speculation. The “Human Attributes” you speak of are per what his word spells out. You need to be more specific on which attributes you are speaking of. 2)(((Most importantly his views I find most deceived reduce the perfect sacrifice of Jesus into something that requires a decision from man to be made effectual))) The choice of man to look to Jesus comes from the work of the Holy Spirit which has convicted him of his sin. But that does not obligate God to save him. Man can decide to do all sorts of things for God, But he does not have to reciprocate that action… Man looks to Jesus, as the Israelite looked to the Serpent on the cross. When he does so in faith God WILL save him. Man’s response to the Holy Spirit does NOT effectuate salvation. God does...... I hear this line of thinking from Calvinists and wonder if they really understand the other position. God has given us the ability to choose, as can been seen in many passages of the Bible, but that chose is not effectual. It is God’s requirement that we *have to choose* Due 30:19 and many other passages. God can give us the ability to choose and still be sovereign. Does this diminish God? Or does it only heighten his sovereign power? I say it proves how powerful he truly is. Yet man is not elevated. 3)(((So for those who follow his thinking on salvation matters, Jesus sacrifice is not enough. I think that those who take up this line of thinking are continually doing mental gymnastics to make God into something they can pallet, rather than trusting in an almighty God even when we don't understand the why))) Jesus’ sacrifice is more than enough. We are as useless as the Israelite in the wilderness, who had poison flowing through their veins moments from death. And we are told that if we just look to the serpent, we will be healed… Jesus, when less than 48 hours from the cross in John 3, points to us to this moment in time. Since the Bible is our standard then help me to understand where these Idea are found in the bible, because I don’t see them in the pages of scriptures: 1)The Idea, that God predestines people before they are born to go to Heaven and Hell 2)The Idea, That God determines everything, not one rouge molecule, evil, every action and thought 3)And why someone who goes to Hell does not have a perfect excuse before God?
@@bayardblack4930 1) (((Well, there is a great deal that I find harmful in his teaching on salvation. I think he is inadvertently applying human attributes on a God that exists outside of time, space, and matter resulting in the diminishing of God and the elevation of man. ))) We both agree that the Bible is the standard we have and this is what we need to look to. So we don’t have to worry about God being outside of time and space. To reason beyond what the Bible says is speculation. The “Human Attributes” you speak of are per what his word spells out. You need to be more specific on which attributes you are speaking of. 2) (((Most importantly his views I find most deceived reduce the perfect sacrifice of Jesus into something that requires a decision from man to be made effectual))) The choice of man to look to Jesus comes from the work of the Holy Spirit which has convicted him of his sin. But that does not obligate God to save him. Man can decide to do all sorts of things for God, But he does not have to reciprocate that action… Man looks to Jesus, as the Israelite looked to the Serpent on the cross. When he does so in faith God WILL save him. Man’s response to the Holy Spirit does NOT effectuate salvation. God does. I hear this line of thinking from Calvinists and wonder if they really understand the other position. God has given us the ability to choose, as can been seen in many passages of the Bible, but that chose is not effectual. It is God’s requirement that we have to choose. Due 30:19 and many other passages. God can give us the ability to choose and still be sovereign. Does this diminish God? Or does it only heighten his sovereign power? I say it proves how powerful he truly is. Yet man is not elevated. 3) (((So for those who follow his thinking on salvation matters, Jesus sacrifice is not enough. I think that those who take up this line of thinking are continually doing mental gymnastics to make God into something they can pallet, rather than trusting in an almighty God even when we don't understand the why))) Jesus’ sacrifice is more than enough. We are as useless as the Israelite in the wilderness, who had poison flowing through their veins moments from death. And we are told that if we just look to the serpent, we will be healed… Jesus, in John 3, points to us to this moment in time. Since the Bible is our standard then help me to understand where these Idea are found in the bible, because I don’t see them in the pages of scriptures: 1) The Idea, that God predestines people before they are born to go to Heaven and Hell 2) The Idea, That God determines everything, not one rouge molecule, evil, every action and thought 3) And why someone who goes to Hell does not have a perfect excuse before God? 1) (((Well, there is a great deal that I find harmful in his teaching on salvation. I think he is inadvertently applying human attributes on a God that exists outside of time, space, and matter resulting in the diminishing of God and the elevation of man. ))) We both agree that the Bible is the standard we have and this is what we need to look to. So we don’t have to worry about God being outside of time and space. To reason beyond what the Bible says is speculation. The “Human Attributes” you speak of are per what his word spells out. You need to be more specific on which attributes you are speaking of. 2) (((Most importantly his views I find most deceived reduce the perfect sacrifice of Jesus into something that requires a decision from man to be made effectual))) The choice of man to look to Jesus comes from the work of the Holy Spirit which has convicted him of his sin. But that does not obligate God to save him. Man can decide to do all sorts of things for God, But he does not have to reciprocate that action… Man looks to Jesus, as the Israelite looked to the Serpent on the cross. When he does so in faith God WILL save him. Man’s response to the Holy Spirit does NOT effectuate salvation. God does. I hear this line of thinking from Calvinists and wonder if they really understand the other position. God has given us the ability to choose, as can been seen in many passages of the Bible, but that chose is not effectual. It is God’s requirement that we have to choose. Due 30:19 and many other passages. God can give us the ability to choose and still be sovereign. Does this diminish God? Or does it only heighten his sovereign power? I say it proves how powerful he truly is. Yet man is not elevated. 3) (((So for those who follow his thinking on salvation matters, Jesus sacrifice is not enough. I think that those who take up this line of thinking are continually doing mental gymnastics to make God into something they can pallet, rather than trusting in an almighty God even when we don't understand the why))) Jesus’ sacrifice is more than enough. We are as useless as the Israelite in the wilderness, who had poison flowing through their veins moments from death. And we are told that if we just look to the serpent, we will be healed… Jesus, in John 3, points to us to this moment in time. Since the Bible is our standard then help me to understand where these Idea are found in the bible, because I don’t see them in the pages of scriptures: 1) The Idea, that God predestines people before they are born to go to Heaven and Hell 2) The Idea, That God determines everything, not one rouge molecule, evil, every action and thought 3) And why someone who goes to Hell does not have a perfect excuse before God?
@@caseycockerham3925 Those who believe in God are the elect. God's plan was to conform every elect person into the image of Christ before the world was, through, sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ You state *"It literally describes predestination"* So where does it state that God; a) Will predetermine all things b) He will determine who goes to Heaven and Hell c) That the reprobate will never believe in God according to his decree Please Educate me
@biagiomaffettone1497 it opens by calling God's people the elect. The word means chosen. They were chosen by God, not that they chose him. He chose them according to foreknowledge. This means literally that he foreknew, according to his own purpose, who his chosen (elect) would be. This is predestination. If you're wondering when the timing of God's choosing took place, it corresponds to Eph1:4-5 and 11-12. Notice they were chosen according to the predetermined plan of the purpose of his will. 1st Peter 1-2 are just 2 versus. There not some exhaustive theological synopsis, but yes, they do teach predestination.
@@caseycockerham3925 1)“He chose them according to foreknowledge. This means literally that he foreknew, according to his own purpose, who his chosen (elect) would be. This is predestination” Yes, God is outside of time and space so, he can see the beginning and the end at the same time and every second in between. He is omniscient. Knowing something is going to happen is *NOT* determining it. So, this is not the predestination Calvinists claim. 2) If you're wondering when the timing of God's choosing took place, it corresponds to Eph1:4-5 and 11-12. Notice they were chosen according to the predetermined plan of the purpose of his will. Eph1:4 He chose us who are in Christ… to receive all the spiritual blessings mentioned. It does not say he chose some to be placed in Christ and then they would receive the blessings Also see Eph1:13 In Him you also trusted, after *you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation* in whom also, *having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise* They were sealed with the Holy spirit *After* they believed, not before as Calvinists claim. They first believed and then they were placed in Christ. *They freely looked to the Serpent and then they were saved* 3) “1st Peter 1-2 are just 2 versus. There not some exhaustive theological synopsis, but yes, they do teach predestination” I agree it is not an exhaustive synopsis an yet Apologia and other treat it as such. The only way it teaches predestination is if you pour in your own presupposition
@@caseycockerham3925 1)“He chose them according to foreknowledge. This means literally that he foreknew, according to his own purpose, who his chosen (elect) would be. This is predestination” Yes, God is outside of time and space so, he can see the beginning and the end at the same time and every second in between. He is omniscient. Knowing something is going to happen is *NOT* determining it. So, this is not the predestination Calvinists claim. 2) If you're wondering when the timing of God's choosing took place, it corresponds to Eph1:4-5 and 11-12. Notice they were chosen according to the predetermined plan of the purpose of his will. Eph1:4 He chose us who are in Christ… to receive all the spiritual blessings mentioned. It does not say he chose some to be placed in Christ and then they would receive the blessings Also see Eph1:13 13 In Him you also trusted, after *you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation* in whom also, *having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise* They were sealed with the Holy spirit *After* they believed, not before as Calvinists claim. They first believed and then they were placed in Christ. *They looked to the Serpent and then they were saved* 3) “1st Peter 1-2 are just 2 versus. There not some exhaustive theological synopsis, but yes, they do teach predestination” I agree it is not an exhaustive synopsis an yet Apologia and other treat it as such. The only way it teaches predestination is if you pour in your own presupposition
As a believer I can say Jesus died for a new covenant that allows all men everywhere regardless of Nationality or genealogy to enter His presence and serve in His priesthood. First covenant had fault, second covenant is now perfect from the perfect one
Just as the old mortal priests sacrificed not for all nations but for the nation of Israel, Jesus our immortal great high priest intercedes perfectly and forever not for every single person but his own people
limited atonement should be called unlimited atonement limited by total sin.. it depends on several things.. 1 do you believe the Word of GOD is correct. 2 do you understand atonement.. 3and it depends on the word EFFECTIVELY... The doctrine of limited atonement - the L in TULIP - teaches that Christ EFFECTIVELY redeems from every people “only those who were chosen from eternity to salvation” .. People also ask What is the meaning of limited atonement? The doctrine states that though the death of Jesus Christ is sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world.. but in reality,,and practicality,, the atonement of Christ's death works itself out in only the elect, thereby leading them without fail to salvation. nothing in calvinism stops or limits anyone from coming to salvation.. GOD wants everyone to come to salvation..even in calvinism.. anything else is heresy in both protestantism and catholiscism
If courtroom analogy is what you want. God is the judge, Jesus is the free court appointed lawyer, And you have a right to represent yourself. (Don't reject the intercessor)
So why did God say "choose life." What's the point of sharing the Gospel if most are doomed from birth? I came across Leighton Flowers and he makes perfect sense.
Oh boy yall are so far behind the curve....read Romans 9 homeboy....the commands and gospel are to resonate the Holy Spirit to your spirit...to condemn or to regenerate. Leighton Flowers...oi vai
@@caseycockerham3925well obviously you are flattening our the multi diamond orb theology of the Bible. Once you see, sorry once God causes you to see, the 12 dimensional infinitely orbed truth then you will understand. Until then you just don’t understand calvinism. 😆
The question really lies in is the Sanctification what justifies. Or are we justified before Sanctification. Which I believe Paul clearly laid it out that we are justified before
Something our non-reformed brothers need to marinate on is this... The question is not: Why would God choose to save some and not others? The question is: Why He would choose to save any of us at all?
if i had a dollar for every calvinist that said this :) answer, because God wants relationship with us. because He doesn't want any lost. He is love and wants ALL to repent and believe which is why Jesus was a sacrifice for ALL :) hope this helps
@rocketsurgeon1746 So he wants this so badly but can't effect it's change? Also, scripture doesn't teach that God wants or desires anything from us as if we could provide something to or for him. It actually teaches the opposite, in fact. Acts17:25
@@caseycockerham3925 needs and wants are very different. psalm 149:4 for the Lord takes pleasure in His people; He will beautify the [b]humble with salvation.
@@bayardblack4930 we agree Jesus is the perfect sacrifice. Do you think it is possible for Jesus to be the sacrifice for ALL who accept the gift of salvation by believing in Him?
2 questions.Why does God choose to damn some to hell and grace some to heaven? Why do the saved need to repent? If they are already saved then confession would not make sense. Biblical answers would be helpful, because I’m struggling to find where it says this. Thank you! God Bless.
Because of the sanctity of God, we don't deserve nothing more than death because of our sin. Suppose that there are 10 persons, 5 are saved and 5 are condemned. God is not being merciful with 5 people and unjust with the other 5. He is being merciful with 5 people and just with the other 5. God can give us mercy or the justice we deserve but he is never unjust. This makes you even more grateful when you know that God has poured his mercy upon you, we are not worthy. And a true faith and the knowledge of our rotten state beacuse of sin and the need of a saviour and a sincere repented heart is given by His mercy, it's not of our will, because we are spiritually dead, we can never get true faith or real repeantance without His grace and His Spirit upon us. Thats how I understand it, if someone can correct me, please. Peace and God bless you all.
1) Because it pleased Him to do so EPHESIANS 1:5 He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 2) Regeneration/being born again, while preordained, is something that happens in time. We are all born as sons of Adam and sin, so we for sure need to repent. We are not born saved just preordained to be saved. There is an order to it. Roman 8:28-30 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
@@danielvalderrabano9566my response to this would be a very important question for this belief. Did Jesus die for the condemned 5? With this belief the answer is no, Jesus did not die for all but for those that he chooses will go to heaven. I need a Bible answer due to the sola scriptura belief.
@@fuzzycounsellor9147 thank you for the response! for your second point, if only a few have predestination, then repentance is not necessary. With this view, God has already decided who goes to hell and who goes to heaven. I see no need for repentance, I’m just wondering why this view it’s necessary to do any good works if you are just destined to be saved or not. The last part with being glorified is that yes, God know who will persevere to the end but this doesn’t mean those who fell away never received initial grace.
@@bradymott4714 Hello, my dear brother in Christ. God has taught me so much the last few weeks. And something that I've learned is that there are many things that I don't know. But one thing I know, maybe the only thing I'm truly sure about, Is that the most important thing is to love Him with all our heart and to love our brethren. And if we focus only in this, all things will fall in it's right place. I recommend you to look for "the new revelation" by Jakob Lorber. It will be the most challenging thing you will come across as a Chrisitian but it can also become the greatest of all blessings. Sorry for not answer your question the way you expected. May God bless you and guide you in the name of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, Cheers my brother.
Interesting side note, I noticed that the LSB translation of 1 Pet 1:2 is "...chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to the obedience of Jesus Christ and the sprinkling of His blood..." LSB is not the only translation which translates it this way. Notice the phrase "to the obedience _of_ Christ Jesus and the sprinkling of His blood." It would appear to me that Peter is saying that we have been chosen to the active and passive obedience of Christ, and actually isn't saying anything about our obedience to Him. I could be wrong, of course, but if the obedience is Christ's obedience to the law and not ours, I think that makes even a stronger case for doctrines of grace, since there is no room in our salvation for our obedience.
Some Calvinists are TULIP 5 pointers, some 4, 3, 2, 1, and most aren't aware of any other beliefs he held (such as double predestination, carried to its logical conclusion of infant damnation, and all the other teachings). The only agreement among all Calvinists is that they are the elect of God and given salvation before the world began. If it weren't for this one claim of his, likely church history would not even note he existed.
I would actually read the Institutes, and understand Calvin would have been mentioned within the whole of church history regardless of this doctrine. His many commentaries as well as other writings are a vital part of historic Protestantism. Predestination was just such a small part of what he talked about.
52:30-53:45 How are the statements at the beginning and end of this clip not completely contradictory? God in his unchangeable decree created someone for destruction and to hate them from all eternity. But God loves all of his creatures in the next breath. So it's loving to create them for them to do wicked awful things for a temporary time and then eternally judge them and punish them for something that he created them to do. When it was decreed unchangeably for them to do this.
Why not start at Romans 9:1 and go till like Romans 11. I think they're all connected. It's really interesting that you want to skip the first five verses of that chapter. And if you're going to try to understand contacts, maybe you should read the book of Malachi.
@@caseycockerham3925 The idea of total depravity includes the inability to obey the commands of God/Jesus perfectly because of "sin nature." So, God gives commands and Calvinists teach that we can't obey them. That creates a mindset of hopelessness and it subtly slanders the character of God in the sense that He gave laws that cannot be kept by men in this lifetime. And, for those who God never zaps with regeneration they are never able to obey either and yet are held accountable for their actions even though their agency wasn't theirs. It makes God evil. And then on top of that, for those who believe they've been "saved" it isn't because of what they've done but rather the fact that God chose them. It leads to an elitist and prideful mentality which God hates. So, Calvinists become blinded by arrogance. Scripture says "knowledge puffs up but love edifies." Pay attention to the Spirit Calvinists exude. Many/Most but not all embody this trait. And, continuing on that point, if the atonement works as they describe then there's nothing they can do to "lose salvation." They are guaranteed a gold ticket which give them a license to sin. Not all people who believe in OSAS or the P of the TULIP will abuse this license by sinning everyday but I've lost track long ago of how many people say "we all sin everyday and can't stop." That idea contradicts scripture... Heb 10:26-39 1 John chapters 1-3 John 15:1-10 Romans 11 and many more...
Exactly!!!! This is what happens when people put theology before what God is actually teaching. Didn't realize these guys were Calvinist. It sad because he out right says "those verses aren't saying what you think they are saying." They have to plainly and openly deny God's word to support their heresy.
My brain might not be firing on all cylinders at the moment, but I don't see how that passage has anything to do with limited atonement or how it is a refutation of it. Would you please explain?
@@1stCorinthians1.21 My premise pertains to the universal offer of salvation preached to the world. Matt. 24:14. If atonement is a limited “offer” this commission is construed incorrectly. The limiting factor is the person that commits blasphemy against the Spirit and refuses to remain in covenant with Christ. Adam and Eve removed themselves from covenant with Christ, but they had the opportunity to enter back in via the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Gospel of Christ.
Leighton Flower’s arguments against Calvinism is very poor. I used to be an Arminian and switched to Calvinism and the Acts 13:48 passage was the light bulb turning on for me. Then I listened to RC Sproul and found harmony with the doctrine and the proof text he referenced. I later listened to James White debate with Flowers on Romans 9 and Flowers failed to exegete the Romans 9 passage and instead argued from an emotional stand point without breaking down the chapter verse by verse. Flowers is not good at defending his doctrine.
@@haiasinosdnah0813 I'll have to check out the debate, what brought me over to calvinism was first reforming my understanding of free will, I had this libertarian understanding of freedom and once I shook that I was able to grasp the hermeneutics of reformed theology, systematic theology and covenant theology.
When you deal with verses that seem to oppose Calvanisim could you spend a solid chunk of time on Hebrews 10:26-29? There are a ton of opposing views across the interwebs. Thanks God bless love the vids
And the best way to get someone to change their view is to provide a better one, one that accounts to scripture better than the Reformed view. It's just that people don't like Calvinism but don't have an alternative that they post drive by comments that say little of value.
@@dandeliontea7 The priest's work would cover the sins of his people. Everything was done for the Jews, not all of the other tribes on earth. The atonement was particular and limited.
@Are_You_Sure_Bro Dr Michael Brown debunked this reasoning when James White brought it up. It doesn't work. Calvinists need to study their OT more closely.
@Are_You_Sure_Bro Michael Brown debunked that idea years ago when James white attempted it in their debate. Calvinists don't understand the OT, that's why you guys always get Romans 9 and other passages wrong.
@@dandeliontea7 Please show me in scripture that the temple work of the Jewish priest was meant to be applied to everyone in the entire world and not just the Jews. All due respect to Dr Brown, but just telling me that he debunked it isn't very compelling. I'll need something more than that if you actually mean for me to take your comment seriously.
@@caseycockerham3925 -Calvinism & all 5 points of TULIP is a false doctrine and is also an enemy of Soulwinning. Jesus commanded us to win the lost on their way to hellfire. ➡ James 5:20 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. ➡ Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. ➡ John 11:25-26 king James- Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Calvanism is HERESY. It was condemned by the Orthodox Church. -Original sin as defined by Calvinism/reformed theology is heretical. Please explain how God creates every unique individual with a sin “nature” but is not the creator of sin? It’s that “nature” your god created that is also the basis for that individuals automatic condemnation. Ridiculous.
Did Christ pay for the sins of the ones He told that their father was the devil? If some peoples father is the devil, did Jesus pay for their sins. Why do they pay for their sins in eternal punishment, if their sins gave been paid for by Christ?. This needs an answer if you want the truth.
One of my most favorite verses is Titus 3:5, but read the entire chapter to get every drop😋 Then again would love to see one verse in context where any person ever chooses God. My natural man hates god, the bible is clear there is enmity between God. There is one thing the is most annoying in this entire discussion... That is the translation of the text from the original text (in Hebrew/Greek) into Engerish... Might assert anyone saying man would ever choose God, thought a number of sermons by Dr. White leaves absolutely no doubt it is all god and man would never accept God... Sad to see the comments about churches that are pre-trib, all the while later making comments God hates divisions, and makes comments about maintaining unity.
Sincere question from a novice Christian: How does -Jesus ONLY dying for His sheep (on a particular and personal level), and every person having the choice to choose Him as their savior - contradict one another? My understanding of God is that He is all-knowing, so He'd be aware of those who would choose Him, yet could still offer salvation for all, be rejected by some, and die on the cross ONLY for those who trust in Him. God knows what's happened in the past, present, and future, so why couldn't Jesus's sacrifice be made in that moment for all those who HAVE/WILL choose Him, since He knows who His followers are/will be? For example, Jesus's sacrifice covered Abraham, who was faithful in the past. Isn't it possible for Christ to know those who would choose Him in the future, and die for them in that moment as well? While also giving everyone throughout time the opportunity to put their faith in Him? I hope this question makes sense, I appreciate the clarification! :)
If Jesus knows who will believe in him and he dies for them exclusively, what is the problem, since no one who doesn't repent will be rejected? Yes it is more than possible for him to know who he saves because they are given to him by the Father before all time 😌
The wind blows where it will, and you cannot tell where it’s going, so it is with everyone who is born of the spirit. Why can’t we just accept that? Maybe we don’t understand exactly how everyone gets saved. It’s God‘s work it’s his glory, sometimes in all of our professing to be wise, we become foolsand we preach a false gospel that’s actually scaring other people that maybe they weren’t loved by God how sad
If you have an understanding of the atonement that causes an interpretation of other scripture resulting in contradiction...then maybe the foundational understanding is in error. The atonement isn't a literal payment. It is a substitute. YOU don't punish an innocent man for the sins of the wicked. And, if a payment is demanded then forgiveness isn't a thing.
If he supposedly died for all people and then many can still die and go to punishment then how can anyone have certainty that he actually was able to save anyone either????? These things MUST be seriously thought out so people can see the result of these unbiblical teachings. The doctrines of grace/Calvinism is biblical.❤️
”But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.“ Hebrews 2:9 This one verse alone disproves Calvinism. In Calvinism your constantly seeking for assurance of your salvation and can never have peace because your looking at your own life and how your performing. Rest in Christ alone he finished it all.
It's very easy to disprove Calvinism with one verse out of context. It's much harder if you keep reading. Who is the "everyone" in verse 9? For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing _many sons to glory,_ should make the founder of _their salvation_ perfect through suffering. Hebrews 2:10 The everyone in 9 is the many in 10. God is founder of _their salvation._ And again, “I will put my trust in him.” And again, “Behold, I and _the children God has given me.”_ Hebrews 2:13 Where do we see God giving people to Jesus? John 6:37 and 10:29 - speaking of specific people groups. Since therefore _the children_ share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, Hebrews 2:14 Note that it is for the children of verses 13 and 14 that Jesus partook death. Contextually, the "everyone" of Hebrews 9 means every one of the children that God gave Jesus. Those who "put their trust in him" (v13). The "my brothers" (v12) and "his brothers" (v17). This is why zooming in on one word in one verse makes you say silly things and exegeting a text makes you a Calvinist.
Tell me something guys. Does your spouse love you and stay loyal because they have no other choice? Or because they choose to be? It’s a two way bridge. Love must have a choice
If I am a Calvinist this verse means nothing... 2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Paul says "we" which includes Christians. And, only Christians can do good (according to Calvinists) so that's a confirmation that Christians are included. But, if I am a Calvinist how can I be judged for my deeds if Christ paid for my bad deeds already? (past, present and future) Did Paul not know how the atonement worked or are you guys getting it wrong?
It's so weird seeing the comments here thankful for the doctrines of grace and denying that Jesus fails to save any of his people, after spending any amount of time on Soteriology 101's comment page. It's nice
@@caseycockerham3925 standard question by calvs when someone says Jesus died for all. they give two options. 1. did Jesus fail because not everyone is saved or 2. Jesus didn't die for all, thus only the "elect"
I thank God for John Owen's insight into the scope of the atonement. His argument put the perfect amount of cracks in my former belief in universal atonement, making a window for me to see actually what the scriptures teach. All praise be to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for my salvation
With love I have not seen a true in-depth view on the historical account of Calvinistic theology from reformed brothers and sisters. The Calvinistic framework imposed onto scripture is never questioned for what it actually is, eisegesis. Seek the historical foundation of this man-made philosophy, and you fill find errors…and the conviction of the Holy Spirit will lead you to remove the framework, and allow the Bible to interpret itself… true exegesis. Thankfully I stopped calling myself a reformed Calvinist, and simply a Bible believing, Bible obeying, born again Christian! Glorify God, boldly proclaim the Gospel, disciple, baptize and PRAY, STUDY, OBEY! Amen. With grace, before you respond, ask yourself if you genuinely dug deep and read Augustine’s ACTUAL writings, Calvin’s, Luther and Zwinlis ACTUAL writings. Have you truly studied the ante-nicene fathers compared to the above. OR Have you saturated yourself with reformed Calvinist preachers (MacArthur, Sproul, G3, White, Washer… whom I love) by reading their actual writings, watched vids and listened to podcasts MOSTLY.
What happens if the person believes with every fiber of his being that Calvinism is true? I can see that he sincerely believes in what he's saying is the truth even though it may not be but he may not know that.
43:21 No, you don’t have to get into universalism, logically or biblically. This is dumb. Owen’s is dumb. The atonement 100% accomplished satisfying God’s justice need for payment for sins. But it does not automatically grant eternal life. IF man repents and surrenders to God, then God will grant eternal life.
Calvijn was a theologian. Who was Very true to the bible. Hè also said that you are saved by Grace alone. Calvinism was related with rules. Like: are you feeling saved? And how would you know? Because people who are Christian do good works. So when I do good works, ergo I am Christian. True, but Many people now tried to show good works because they were scared they were nt hristian anymore. Sad. But we are Christian and saved only by grace.
You deny God: Hebrews 7:25 King James Version 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. John 6:51 (KJV) I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. Matthew 22:8-10 King James Version 8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. 9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Calvinsm says that we cannot do, the exact things that the Bible is calling us to do over and over. John Calvin didn't have computers either. Just pull up all the verses which state who Christ died for and see how they contradict limited atonement. Case closed.
I agree with definite atonement as scripture teaches it. But why not also affirm that God also intends Christ to really die for even those who refuse to believe? Now people don’t believe according to their own independent agency. That is, God has multiple intentions in the atonement. We are told that God is the savior for all people, but *especially* of those that believe (1 Tim. 4:10). And there are scriptures that speak to even false teachers who have destructive heresies, “who deny the Master who bought them” (2 Peter 2:1). Why not affirm both in a different sense, a six point Calvinism? Why lock in to one divine intent? Can’t Christ die for all, because God wishes that they would repent and has provided for all, yet because his blood is rejected he also acts in his election to save those appointed to eternal life? It seems scripture might require a double affirmation.
The Order of Love: We are to love God with all of our hearts and minds (Matthew 22:37). Without first loving God, we cannot love Christ. And without loving Jesus, we cannot love each other. For it is written in 1 Corinthians 11:3 that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. We must not distort God's order of things, yet most of the world has and is being led to hell. Jesus speaks the words of God the Father, and to try and change them will lead to death (Rev 22:18-19). Just as Jesus said when he prayed to the Father, “and this is life eternal, that they might know YOU the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:3).
I think the atonement is potential and not effacious. Here's why: Jesus is the savior; the one who accomplished the work. But Jesus atonement doesn't actually save anyone. The Bible say's the Gospel (Preaching of) is the power of salvation to everyone who believes. Now everyone who believes is really the topic at hand. Are the people who believe, believing of their own volition or because God regenerated them to believe? How can regeneration precede faith if faith does not come until hearing the word of Christ. Can you be honest in your theology and answer that?
19:10 you are wrong and teaching a false doctrine. Jesus died for ALL. it is in numerous scriptures which you are well aware. you dishonestly change the definition of ALL and WORLD because your calvinism is more important to you than Biblical truth. Christ's sacrifice was for ALL.
I agree, what they do is they focus on a few verses that support their theology, but only if you interpret them a particular way, and then they either just ignore all the other verses in the bible that debunk their theology, or they just change the definition of certain words to mean something else in order for it to fit their theology.
John 10:10 NIV 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. John 10:10 KJV The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. "May" , "might" , "might" Not; "Will, shall, shall". ... Yout right about alot jeff, this ain't it. I will refrence every verse you have listened. Sofar Calvinism is not justified by john 10
Notwithstanding the whole topic of "Is Calvinism True," I never like the whole "I love your wife, but not like I love my wife" analogy. I mean, at the end of your wife's life, I don't express my WRATH on her, even though I have a certain sort of love for her. Yes, she comes in a very distant second, compared to my wife, but if YOUR wife were about to be hit by a car, I would hope I'd run into the road and push her out of the way, not reveal and express my wrath towards her!...so I've heard this analogy, but find it a flawed one.
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TIMESTAMPS:
4:03 intro starts
5:26 show starts, EAN updates, etc.
15:10 intro to Limited Atonement/Definite Redemption
23:08 Jeff's passion for NAD and the usual :)
27:02 proof texting & being challenged
32:19 salvation accomplished, not simply possible
38:20 Jesus knows His sheep
42:00 the characteristics on the atonement
does Jesus die for the sin of unbelief?
50:30 the scope of the atonement
55:04 Matt 20:28, Acts 13:28, 20:28, John 17:9, Luke 19:10, 1 Peter 3:18, Gal 1:3-4, 1 Tim. 3:14, and more
1:06:57 Q: what about "the whole world" being saved?
1:09:40 Superchats and closing comments
Thank you!
Thanks!
Mvp
Not all heroes wear capes
1Jn 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
And what are we to conclude from this?
RC Sproul said something along the lines of “Excepting universalists, every Christian believes in limited atonement. The question is, who limits it? Does God limit the atonement of his own free will, or does man put the limitation on Gods work.”
Only limited to the elect 👍🏼 👍🏼
So if I’m locked in a cell I can do all the choosing I want , I ain’t getting out till someone lets me out.
@@Terrylb285 yes sin is a cage we’re in til we die. Whatever faith one has, Christ will never cast out.
Sproul knows better now.
I love R. C.
Praise God for giving us a high priest who saves effectively!
The doctrines of grace make Christ so much more wonderful to me.
how?
Its not great calling this "the doctrines of grace," because its not the only way to understand God's grace at all.
So, let me start with... I am still sorting what I believe versus was I was taught to believe.
So, I believe, or at least taught, that Christ died for everyone. But that salvation is a gift that we choose to accept or not. However, God does know who will and will not accept that gift, however that option is still on the table for them.
After that I get a headache.
You are right to get a headache. Calvinism believes God determined all things. It determines who will and will not accept Christ. And God decrees all the sin every man and woman will commit. Then will send the person who commits sin, per God's decree, to Hell for eternity... This is *Not* in the pages of scriptures.
@@biagiomaffettone1497read her comment again. She wasn't confused by Calvinism but by the simple foreknowledge armenianism view of salvation.
@Zaloomination
*Yeh, So ? I want to make certain to clear up any confusion she may have of Calvinism.... So Tell me. Where in the Bible does God predestine people to Hell and Heaven ? It is not in Romans 9, so where is it?*
@@biagiomaffettone1497 despite what you mistakenly believe, Romans 9 is but a tiny sampling of the vast tapestry of scriptures across both testaments that support God graciously choosing to regenerate and adopt some rebellious sinners and passing over others.
@ination *We both believe that God is sovereign. And can accomplish his will. You can not claim those events for your own. If you do you are delusional. So, if I am mistaken then you should easily provide evidence that God does decreed some for Heaven and much more for Hell. So, save your Calvinistic rhetoric and provide unmistakable proof..... Why do you Calvinists want to send so many people to Hell ??*
Yes!! So looking forward to what God is doing in Iowa! Our church has been praying for this! We will be there. Our Pastor is in Uganda visiting and speaking to churches there but we will be there. Thank you Pastor Jeff and Zach! Look forward to hearing you speak in person.
Reading the comments it becomes very obvious the doctrines of grace are damaging to man's pride. My reaction was fearful finding this doctrine in the scriptures. Today it has become such a comfort and motivating for my Christian life.
Good ad hominem.
@@davidbeiswenger60 I dont think you are using that term correctly. I am merely stating an observation not insulting anyone.
@@WinkenSmile It sounded like you implied those that didn't track with this video were dealing with pride. I accept your point, but I think it is inaccurate. Thanks for clarifying. My response was confusion when I usually find these guys very clear on other matters.
Funny and ironic then how its usually the calvinists that have problems with pride then, isn't it?
Calvinism is the opposite of motivating. It keeps men in sin because God does it all. There's nothing you can do to change your fate. That is hopeless if you're not a chosen one.
Cmon
Thanks for this! I’ll be going back to
listen again and take notes. Praise God for all that you do❤
I’ve bought and tried 2 months of the Ion layer. It did absolutely nothing for me. It’s a bit pricey even with the discount code… take my 2 cents or leave it. That’s my experience with it…
These brothers are excellent teachers and properly divide the word of God!!!🙏❤️. I highly recommend them and their ministry as God is using them to do great things for the Kingdom of God:)❤️
17:35 how can God not be free if we have free will? why can't you comprehend they can both be true? Logic shows that God allowing free will is more just and sovereign
Precisely my point always. I don't see how God giving man the ability to reject or embrace Him somehow destroys His sovereignty. If anything, it makes it more beautiful that God knows all those choices before you even make them (without forcing you down a path), and still manages to fulfill His will regardless of all the appearance of "chaos" to us humans. With this atonement thing as well, even going back to the sacrificial law before Christ, forgiveness of sin requires an acknowledgement of said sin by the people being atoned for. God can choose to just outright pardon sin that is unrepentant if He wills it, but the most common and accepted criteria for forgiveness is repentance. Jesus did die for the sins of everyone which is why it is a gift. The only requirement to accept said gift is a surrender to Him and acknowledgement that you even need the gift in the first place which requires laying down your pride and boastfulness. That is why it isn't some kind of work that falls under the category of boasting as well, if you're boasting about how great you are for recognizing how wicked you are and in need of God's saving grace you are, then you're already contradicting the idea of saving faith and repentance in itself.
Everything explained above is 100% within the realm of God being perfectly sovereign and in control of everything from your repentance all the way to your salvation and doesn't even contradict the sovereignty of God in the slightest in my understanding of what God tells us. God 100% has the ability and the power to just outright force people to do anything He wills, but out of his perfect holiness and justice, He gives humanity the ability to choose Him or sin. From the garden to today it is still that same choice. If there wasn't a choice there wouldn't have been any need for the tree in the garden. To say God forced that rebellion upon Adam and Eve would be to accuse God of orchestrating and forcing man to sin through puppeteering Satan which is a common atheist arguing point that I find impossible to defend with a purely 100% Calvinist theology. Don't get me wrong, I think a purely 100% Arminian view of scripture is heresy. I think Calvin was right about almost everything, I just think he took it a bit too far to the point that it contradicts other points of scripture too much and even lead to making God the originator of sin itself just for the sake of hyper-focusing on what the word "sovereignty" means. As if giving humanity a choice to love or reject Him means He isn't in control of all things anymore or doesn't have the power to force humans to love him somehow?.. God's love is perfect. His justice is perfect. God's holiness is perfect. God's sovereignty is perfect. All these attributes mesh together, no need to hyper focus on one as greater than any other to the point where you're contradicting His other beautifully perfect attributes just for the sake of trying to hold together a proposed idea that is likely mostly correct.
First, we need to define what free will is. Secondly, I fail to see any Scriptural warrant for having to make room for autonomous human will. In fact, Scripture seems to suggest the exact opposite. One of the key themes we see throughout Scripture is God changing the heart of man in order to accomplish His will. He places certain motivations and intentions into man's heart, such that it wills to accomplish God's divine purpose. Salvation is no different. I don't even see how this point can be considered debatable.
@@heartofalegend you are conflating God making some things happen with Him making ALL things happen. Scripture most certainly suggests free will by asking us to choose between two paths.
Example is ezekiel 18.20The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Much more in the chapter but this destroys the assertion that I am subject to Adam's sin plus it shows we can choose which path, NOT be a slave to whatever nature we have
@@heartofalegend this verse here paints a clear picture
Ez18:30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”
Have a great day, brother
@@rocketsurgeon1746Yeah. Hosea also speaks in similar language. The Bible speaks of humans going against God's will constantly. God allows it to happen out of love. Preserving the ability for humans to have a choice so that love is actual love while still having complete control over His Will and plan. This paints a much more beautiful picture of just how sovereign God is than simply just God forcing every human hand (including sin yikes..) as simply as just writing a storybook and having all the actors play it out. God could absolutely do that and does have that power, but the bible seems to be clear that God allows rejection to bring out His glory in the devotion of the ones who love Him.
All in all, I find it much more beautiful and amazing that God manages to bring forth His plan regardless of people trying to go against it all the time. It's much more amazing and impressive of Him than simply pushing around pawns in a predefined fully scripted storybook.
Durbin is a granddad!! 1. Bless the Lord for that. 2. Did not know that but the blessing of godliness is seen also in the life of a person.
*Hey Apologia why don't you invite Dr Flowers on your show. We would all like to see that. You can win him over with your superior arguments and Biblical insight*
I do not think they will change his mind. Only God because Leighton is so stubborn and does not want to hear the truth.
@@ryanhart3159 My Friend, what truth is he not wanting to hear??
@@biagiomaffettone1497 the truth of the doctrines of grace.
@@ryanhart3159 Can you show me which verses talk of Limited Atonement?, Irresistible Grace? and Unconditional election.. Without using mans philosophies
Give me the truth
Great work as always brothers! All the unwitting Pelagians come out of the woodwork for episodes like this
The unity of the Triune God is on the line in how we understand Salvation. The Father elects and the Son Dies for the elect, and the Spirit regenerates the elect. Any other system puts the Persons of the Godhead at odds with each other, with the Father choosing some and the Son dying for all and the Spirit only regenerating some. God's purpose in salvation was accomplished in the life, death, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus. Not one drop of His Precious blood was spilled in vain.
wrong. He does not elect salvifically. He elects for a purpose. Jesus died for ALL. only calvinists change the meaning of ALL and the WHOLE WORLD
@rocketsurgeon1746 so He paid for the sins of all ?? If so, all will go to heaven because all sin has been paid for even the sin of unbelief. Anyone for whom Christ has died and paid for their sins God will not judge. So you believe universalism, which is unbiblical.
@@rocketsurgeon1746only non-calvinists ignore context when it comes to ALL and WHOLE WORLD.
The johannium corpus alone uses the term "kosmos" at least 14 different times and never it is rarely used to mean "every single person who has lived and ever will live."
@@isaiahanddakotamartinez7730 read the Bible. 1 john 2:2And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
read it for yourself and stop listening to calv only teaching
@@6.0hhh what context when it comes to Jesus dying for ALL? 1 john 2:2, 1 peter 3:18 and many others
It is a false dichotomy to say that people can only believe in Limited Atonement or Universal Atonement.
There can be Conditional Atonement at well which is consistent throughout the Bible. We read God say very frequently “if you do x I will do x”. Y’all don’t have to believe in it but there are other consistent options we can find in Scripture. Talking about “limitation” may be missing the real issue
Well in that case it is certainly limited. It’s limited by how righteous the person being offered salvation is.
You’re saying it’s unlimited in its offer but limited by the knowledge, intellect, information, and righteousness that each person has. Even if you think everybody gets the same exact chance (which they obviously don’t considering that probably 10’s of thousands of native Americans and many other people groups have died without ever even hearing the gospel) it would still come down to them making the right decision. Which is the definition of righteousness. Obviously it feels good for us to feel like we made a better decision than everyone else but the truth is that I would have used my freewill to reject Christ forever and ever just like everyone else who affected by sin including the fallen angels.
Your view is that people are kind of bad and when God offers salvation, some make wise decisions, some make poor decisions and some never even hear the gospel.
My view is that all of humanity is so wicked and depraved that they hate God to the point of eternal rejection no matter how many chances He gives us. But out of love and mercy He removes the hearts of stone out of a number as innumerable as the sand on the seashore and gives them a heart of flesh. (Ezekiel 36)
Beyond that it is His holy and just right to condemn whom He wills and have mercy on whom He wills. He doesn’t even offer salvation to the fallen angels and I don’t see you up and arms about that. They’re sinful creatures just like us. Do you think satan has enough good in his heart to love God if he so chooses? Of course not. God doesn’t force us to be evil. But He is sovereign over even His sinful creatures and can give them new hearts if He pleases. We’re in no position to make demands.
@@quinnpeterson2716 woah dude, I was only arguing against the false dichotomy presenting another option found in Scripture, never did I say if it is what I believe or not. At least address the issue before assuming and creating your beloved strawman 😅 triggered much I see.
All I know is we are meat puppets moving for the -entertainment- glory of a supernatural being who just made some of us to live, enjoy life in sin only to be thrown hopelessly into the deepest parts of hell. In our lifetime we will hear about how He died for some around us but we should know better that to hope in that so called “gospel” cause hey, that Jesus didn’t atone for many of us. So even though Scripture says that God makes His appeal through preachers, and even though I may hear that so-called “powerful gospel” it is not powerful enough to give us faith. Heck, your so called “gospel” doesnt even let me know if I was chosen or not to be saved so, I guess… I am…? I mean, I feel like I am. But then again I could devout my whole life to your Calvinism and in the end I could be a reprobate only living under an evil delusion created by your God to use me so He could save His precious elect. In the end, why would you care about what I say or respond? I’m just a meat puppet living to entertain your God who may or may not care about me. I mean, I don’t know. Do you know if your God cares about me? Do you really know if He sent His Son to die for me and atone for my sins so I could be saved?
Do you love me?
@@quinnpeterson2716 interesting, it seems someone didn’t like my response to you cause it all got erased. No worries, here goes again.
So, it seems you got triggered from my response cause I only was arguing against the false dichotomy and included a third option which seems to be consistent throughout the bible. I never mentioned or wanted to imply what I believe, you simply assumed. At least address the issue I pointed to before you state your deal. Still, I don’t know why you would even be bothered by anything I say.
All I know is that we are meat puppets living to -amuse- glorify a supernatural being who just puts some of us to live a whole life of sin only to be thrown hopelessly into eternal damnation because of the conditions He determined for us to live in. But funny thing is that we will hear of a so called powerful “gospel” that seems to not be powerful enough to give faith to the mayority of us. So most of us should just ignore it cause it’s not really for most of us, only for the few -special- elect people. The other hilarious thing is that I may think I’m reprobate but there is no way for me to know for sure. I mean, I could dedicate my life to your gospel but that wont make me any more righteous if I was not one of the -special- elect people. The funniest of all things is that even though God uses preachers to spread His message to everyone and as the Scriptures say “make His appeal through [them]” for all to be saved, He doesn’t seem to love us all or atone for all of us which kind of seems like a shady thing to do but hey, “who am I, oh man?” 😅
So this all brings a couple of questions:
Why do you even care about what I respond? How do you know if I am saved or reprobate? Could you sincerely tell me that God loves me? Would God let me be burned in damnation for eternity if He loves me? Do you love me?
@@quinnpeterson2716 interesting, it seems someone didn’t like my response to you cause it all got erased. No worries, here goes again.
So, it seems you got triggered from my response cause I only was arguing against the false dichotomy and included a third option which seems to be consistent throughout the bible. I never mentioned or wanted to imply what I believe, you simply assumed. At least address the issue I pointed to before you state your deal. Still, I don’t know why you would even be bothered by anything I say.
All I know is that we are meat puppets living to -amuse- glorify a supernatural being who just puts some of us to live a whole life of sin only to be thrown hopelessly into eternal damnation because of the conditions He determined for us to live in. But funny thing is that we will hear of a so called powerful “gospel” that seems to not be powerful enough to give faith to the mayority of us. So most of us should just ignore it cause it’s not really for most of us, only for the few -special- elect people. The other hilarious thing is that I may think I’m reprobate but there is no way for me to know for sure. I mean, I could dedicate my life to your gospel but that wont make me any more righteous if I was not one of the -special- elect people. The funniest of all things is that even though God uses preachers to spread His message to everyone and as the Scriptures say “make His appeal through [them]” for all to be saved, He doesn’t seem to love us all or atone for all of us which kind of seems like a shady thing to do but hey, “who am I, oh man?” 😅
So this all brings a couple of questions:
Why do you even care about what I respond? How do you know if I am saved or reprobate? Could you sincerely tell me that God loves me? Would God let me be burned in damnation for eternity if He loves me? Do you love me?
@@quinnpeterson2716 interesting, it seems someone didn’t like my response to you cause it all got erased. No worries, here goes again.
So, it seems you got triggered from my response cause I only was arguing against the false dichotomy and included a third option which seems to be consistent throughout the bible. I never mentioned or wanted to imply what I believe, you simply assumed. At least address the issue I pointed to before you state your deal. Still, I don’t know why you would even be bothered by anything I say.
All I know is that we are meat puppets living to -amuse- glorify a supernatural being who just puts some of us to live a whole life of sin only to be thrown hopelessly into eternal damnation because of the conditions He determined for us to live in. But funny thing is that we will hear of a so called powerful “gospel” that seems to not be powerful enough to give faith to the mayority of us. So most of us should just ignore it cause it’s not really for most of us, only for the few -special- elect people. The other hilarious thing is that I may think I’m reprobate but there is no way for me to know for sure. I mean, I could dedicate my life to your gospel but that wont make me any more righteous if I was not one of the -special- elect people. The funniest of all things is that even though God uses preachers to spread His message to everyone and as the Scriptures say “make His appeal through [them]” for all to be saved, He doesn’t seem to love us all or atone for all of us which kind of seems like a shady thing to do but hey, “who am I, oh man?” 😅
So this all brings a couple of questions:
Why do you even care about what I respond? How do you know if I am saved or reprobate? Could you sincerely tell me that God loves me? Would God let me be burned in damnation for eternity if He loves me? Do you love me?
Leighton Flowers gonna be dropping a four and a half hour response before dawn 👍🏻
2 Timothy 4:3-4
Yes he will, for sure, presenting his Flesh-o-gesis contortions.
@@ManassehJones youre just angry. Who hurt you?
Does anyone know where LF stands on abortion, LBGTQ or W.o.F movement ?
I just know he hates James white and Calvinist.
@TheKingJames lol truth, I got a 3 1/2 hour on McGrew courtesy of the boys and Leighton Tulip 🌷 Flowers
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
04:19 🌱 *The series "Is Calvinism True?" continues, focusing on Limited Atonement in this episode.*
07:01 🌺 *Limited Atonement questions whether Jesus' atonement was potential or efficacious, perfect, and accomplishing God's purpose.*
08:41 🌟 *Partnering with Apologia Studios through All Access supports their ministry, enabling content creation and outreach efforts.*
11:11 💡 *Abolition bills, including one in Iowa, are being pursued with legislative support, requiring financial assistance and public engagement.*
17:01 📖 *Being Calvinist doesn't necessarily denote allegiance to John Calvin; it signifies adherence to particular theological views, such as the nature of man and God's grace in salvation.*
20:15 🕊️ *The Triune God's active role in salvation is highlighted, with the Father's election, the Son's redemption, and the Spirit's sanctification.*
22:24 💬 *When discussing Calvinism, it's important to address verses that seem problematic and understand their context.*
23:19 🤔 *Examining personal beliefs against scripture can resolve conflicts between tradition and interpretation.*
26:19 💡 *Exploring personal health and well-being through methods like NAD treatments can be beneficial.*
27:15 ⚠️ *Proof texting, while common, requires careful consideration of context to avoid misinterpretation.*
30:17 💬 *Understanding the biblical view of the atonement and its purpose is crucial in discussions about Calvinism.*
32:06 📖 *The question of whether Jesus accomplished individual salvation or merely made it possible is central to debates about Calvinism.*
33:54 ❓ *Examining the nature of the atonement helps clarify beliefs about salvation and God's sovereignty.*
35:17 🤔 *Personalizing the atonement leads to questioning whether it was for a particular group or for all humanity.*
36:42 🔍 *"Limited atonement" refers to a qualitative limitation, focusing on who the atonement is for, rather than a quantitative limitation of its efficacy.*
39:57 🐑 *Scripture distinguishes between those for whom Jesus laid down his life (the sheep) and those who will face damnation (the goats), highlighting the particularity of the atonement.*
40:24 📖 *The doctrine of Limited Atonement is being discussed, emphasizing the biblical context, including the concept of the Book of Life and God's election before the foundation of the world.*
41:47 🤔 *John Owen's "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ" provides a comprehensive treatment of the atonement, challenging the idea of a general atonement for all and suggesting it logically leads to universalism.*
45:34 💬 *Unbelief is considered a sin according to scripture, raising questions about the efficacy of atonement if Christ died for all sins but some end up in Hell due to unbelief.*
49:22 ⚖️ *If Christ paid for all sins, why are people punished for eternity in Hell, especially for unbelief, which is also a sin? This questions the justice of God and raises issues with the doctrine of universal atonement.*
52:11 🌍 *Affirmation of God's salvation for people from every tribe, tongue, and nation, while acknowledging the particularity of God's salvific love for His chosen people.*
54:29 🔍 *Tension arises when tradition conflicts with clear biblical teachings, such as the definite redemption and limited atonement, challenging believers to let the text speak for itself.*
58:58 🏛️ *Paul's courtroom language highlights the themes of justification and condemnation, emphasizing God's role as the ultimate judge.*
59:38 💬 *Paul challenges the idea of condemnation for those for whom Jesus died, emphasizing Christ's intercession and the impossibility of condemnation.*
01:00:48 🙏 *Jesus' intercession for believers is highlighted as a key aspect of their security and redemption.*
01:01:56 💪 *The connection between redemption and intercession underscores the ongoing work of Christ on behalf of believers, ensuring their security.*
01:07:39 🔒 *John MacArthur argues for limited atonement based on biblical evidence, challenging the notion of a universal atonement and emphasizing God's sovereignty in salvation.*
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wow
Amen brothers!!!🙏❤️.
When we bring these truths to their logical conclusion, it is plainly clear to see. Brothers and sisters believe what the scriptures say NOT man!
I think it's important to define belief.
I know many self proclaimed Christians who say they "believe" yet they have not died to themselves and turned to Christ.
They continue to indulge in sin and claim salvation.
When someone is truly saved they produce a certain kind of fruit.
And as the famous saying "by their fruits you will know them".
So I think explaining that belief isn't just an atmospheric thought but an APPLICATION of it as well. You have to open yourself completely to God in every single area of your life. You have to let him in. If someone is not truly doing that then ..... how can you be saved when you keep pushing your savior away? You acknowledge his existence... ok good even demons do that. It's more than just acknowledgment.
Also 2 seemingly opposing things can exist at the same exact time. For example you can love and also hate the same person at the same time. I dont find such a hard time to believe that we have free will but also God can intercede with his own free will at times. And that ultimately since he is all knowing- he knows where all the paths lead.... that doesn't mean that God is using us like barbie dolls. And that also doesn't mean that we have all the free will of the universe. God exists and he keeps things from getting too derailed but he does allow us our own sovereignty to an extent. Ultimately he is the only 100% soverign being. So yes he offers us salvation but he gives us the choice. Just how he gave the choice to Adam and Eve. We choose to obey or deny.
You can choose what life you want to live but ultimately the day and time you die is already written. How you get there is your choice. But how things will end is already written.
It may "be written" but how do you explain the names of those who take the mark being "blotted out of the Lamb's book of life"? (I assume you know where to find this passage) that is a clear cut demonstration of a person making a choice that damns his otherwise saved soul.
@@lalonguecarabine4952 Revelation 13:8 refutes that point because it says all whose names were not found in the book of life from the foundation of the world. The crux of free will and Calvinism hinges upon whether the writing of the names beforehand were pure election or foreknowledge of man's free will or a "hypostatic union" of the two.
@@lalonguecarabine4952 Nope don't know where to find this imagined verse. If you know where it is please cite it cause I can't find it. I find some that says their names were not found, or I will never blot out.. but where it say He blots it out. Except in Psalms 69:28 which says: may they be blotted them out.. but that has nothing to do with the mark.
I do not believe God writes a name in the Lambs book of life and then blots it out, and have found no evidence that He does. So if you know where to find it please let me know.
If you cannot then your argument is moot. If you are going to make an argument like this you really should verify what you are saying is actually supported by scripture.. just a suggestion of course.
The most straightforward, simple yet technical definition of saving faith as described in the Bible I think is found in Hebrews 11:6, "Now without faith it is impossible to please God, since the one who draws near to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."
So, saving faith requires:
1. Believing God exists.
2. Believing that if you seek Him, then He will reward you will His grace.
3. Seeking Him.
Every person who sought Jesus in the Gospels and was told that their faith saved them, they all demonstrated this. We must respond to the gospel of Jesus by seeking God in belief of who He is and what He will do, then we will be saved. Simple. And it's a free choice available for anyone and everyone. God wants to save everyone, but some aren't willing (Matt. 23:37).
@@bilboswagginz2808
Where not the people who followed Jesus in John 6 seeking Him? Yet in the end they all departed except the 12.
Since grace is unmerited favor you have made it merited by putting a requirement on it.
If God didn't draw those He has chosen none would seek Him as they all love their sin more than God.
If Jesus wants to save everyone why did He say he prayed not for the world for for those the Father chose out of the world? John 17:9
If your will is free why did Jesus say if you stay in His word you will be made free? John 8:31-36
The Jews who claimed they were free where living under the heel of Rome at the time. They like you only imagine themselves to be free.
If you have saving faith, did God bless you with it or did you conjure it up all by yourself?
According to my bible it is the gift of God and not of yourself. Ephesians 2:8
Hope this helps you to reconsider your position on whether you have freewill or not. Also on whether you can conjure up saving faith without the Father deciding to draw you & granting you faith.
Goodness, Apologia is doing something right for the comment section to be this.......'encouraging' right as the video drops. 😅 seems totally legit & above board.
Thank you Jeff & Zach for your lesson today & your additional insights. God is Sovereign over salvation and Jesua died for the sins of his own
There are 3 sections in John 17, and when Jesus prays in John 17:6, “those whom the Father gave Him” is referencing Jesus’s disciples - context is key.
Calvin’s commentary on Isaiah 53 - the “many” means “all people.” When Matthew and Mark said “many,” they meant what the Isaiah meant - “many“ means “all people.”
Christ can die for all people AND the limitation be placed on the application, which makes the most sense of the entire canon of scripture.
If the intention is to only APPLY the atonement to SOME, then why have Christ die for the others? For what purpose?
No, Jesus said “all who the Father gives me” will come to him and that the Fathers will is that of all he has given him he should lose nothing. He then said he dies for his sheep in John 10 and that his sheep hear his voice and follow him and tells those not believing “but you don’t believe because you are not of my sheep”. Because, as Jesus said in John 6:65 “No one can come to me unless it has been granted him from the Father”. Trying to explain away predestination and election to where it gives the sovereignty of salvation to men is as silly as it is futile. Luke made it even more clear in Acts 13:48 when he said of those being saved “and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed”. God’s doctrine of election is all throughout scripture. Jesus died for his Bride, his sheep, the ones given to him by the Father. Just as he teaches us and the Fathers will is that Jesus loses none of them. He has not and he will not lose a single sheep that the Father gave to him..Unlike the Arminian belief that Jesus loses most of the people he died for.
We also know that when Jesus says “all who the Father gives to me will come to me” he isn’t only talking about his disciples because they had already came to him..but it would be a silly statement if he was only talking to the crowd about 11 people. “All who the Father gives me will come to me” that also proves irresistible Grace.
@@heartofalegend
That’s a fair question, and I don’t know if scripture explicitly answers it, though I think some texts may provide implicit information… maybe to make 2 Corinthians 5:18-20 possible? Maybe that since God desires all to be saved, He made a way for all people to respond to Him by faith?
I think there are several available possibilities, but I’m trying to be open to what the entire canon says about the nature of the atonement… and it appears the application is limited (John 6:37; 10:11,15; Matt 7:21-23) rather than the extent (1 John 2:2; 1 Tim 2:5-6; 2 Peter 3:9) when all the biblical data is accounted for.
@@shawnglass108
With your words, you’ve demonstrated your understanding within this conversation is elemental.
I believe in election and predestination, though it’s likely I understand these doctrines differently than you… also, I’m not an Arminian. There’s wisdom to be found in understanding someone’s perspectives before critiquing them.
(I say all this with respect and brotherly love 🙏🏼)
I don't see God being wrong for choosing to save some because He loves them more than others ( I believe He is under no obligation to save anyone).
What I have trouble understanding why God would determine Abominable Things to glorify Himself. Especially when He had Perfect Glory w/o sin in the Trinity. Is God more glorified by the punishment of Abominable sins instead of a sinless world determined by Him?
The Bible is clear
1 John 2:2 KJV: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Limited atonement is one of the most heretical and blasphemous doctrines within the TULIP.
The whole world isn't a universal term. Read Romans 9. KJV oi vai
@@Gaoda-p4yhe's young in his faith. He isn't considering that people are already in eternity at this very moment. People that rejected God, people that had a chance to repent and chose not to.
Revelation 3.20-21
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
All the Leighton Flowers people in the comments obviously dont see the constant strawmen arguments he throws around. Still waiting to see Leighton Flowers exegete the passages he proof texts properly.
Still waiting for Durbin and White to offer an actual rebuttal to his objections
what strawmen are you referring to? let's discuss
Yea I keep hearing that those opposed to Calvinism have all these "strawman arguments" yet I haven't seen one example.
Proverbs 16:Proverbs 16:4 ESV
[4] The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.
Isaiah 43:1-4 ESV
[1] But now thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine. [2] When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you. [3] For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. I give Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in exchange for you. [4] Because you are precious in my eyes, and honored, and I love you, I give men in return for you, peoples in exchange for your life.
What more do you guys want to prove GOD is sovereign and he does to HIS wills good pleasure. GOD has a plan and HE is providentualy doing it.
@@cassiebennet4262here's an example, the argument that in Calvinism man has no free will. This is a straw man, Calvinists do not believe we lack free will, but instead that in our fallen sinful state we cannot choose to do good, only evil. Unless God influences our lives we cannot do good. Now this position in Calvinism is not saying we have no free will but instead that our free will is automatically geared towards evil continually, what evil we choose to do is completely our choice. In our fallen state we can choose at least in some situations on our own not to partake in certain evil/sinful things if we are just not into it, but apart from God we cannot do good. God influences both the righteous and the wicked in order for us to do good. It's not that Calvinists believe we lack free will but instead that we lack the desire or the will to do good on our own, big difference!
In this passage from Acts, how come Peter and Silas didn't explain TULIP to the jailer? Why did he go straight to believe in Jesus and you will be saved? Was Peter not a good calvinist?
29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33 At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. 34 The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God-he and his whole household.
Calvinism is not the gospel, it is a systematic explanation of how the gospel works. Of course Calvinists affirm Peter's preaching
Very good point Brother
How do you know they didn't? Please tell me what this phrase means and exactly what they said if you can, if you were there. "Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house."
Remember Peter agreed with the teachings of Paul and equated his teachings with scripture. And Paul certainly taught the doctrines of grace as did Calvin.
@@fuzzycounsellor9147 *You are right Paul taught the doctrine of grace. Calvin taught the doctrine of damnation. Where most of humanity is decreed to go to Hell before they were even born. And they have no ability to hear the word of God... My friend you need to reconsider your man made Theology*
@@biagiomaffettone1497 Just consider how many people lived and died without an opportunity to follow Yahweh before Jesus was born and even after....God chose 1 small family out of all the pagan families of the world, which became a tiny nation, out of all the mighty nations of the world. All those tens or hundreds of millions of people that lived and died without ever hearing about Yahweh. None of them had an chance to hear the word of God. Just think about that logically. Even after Christ was born and ascended, how many people lived without hearing about Jesus. You still have to deal with the fact that most people that have lived and died haven't had the chance to hear the word of God.
Jesus save everyone who freely come to him in faith... That is the requirement of GOD
Why are people in hell for sins that Christ paid for? It's simple Jeff, they are in hell for their sins for which they rejected the payment for. Jesus offered them a way out but they chose to live their lives separate from Him. You're conflating the finished work of the cross with application. It's a conditional application. If atonement automatically grant eternal life and granted only to the elects, then you would have people who are born saved before they even believe.
Ephesians 2:3
"among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind."
When Jesus said "it is finished" He didn't say what the "it" was. The doctrine using the phrase "finished work on the cross" eisegetically infers that all sins, past, present and future were paid for in a literal sense.
This is not how the atonement works.
@@JAGChristianos how does the atonement work then?
That verse in Ephesians doesn't support your argument, all it means is that we the elect were saved from eternity past according to the council of God AND applied at a moment in time.
@@hansmo8282
1) It ended the Old Covenant. This is explained in Heb 9.
2) It serves as the ultimate act of love. No greater love than a man lay down his life for his friend.
3) It serves as a wedding proposal. We love Him because He first loved us.
4) We accept His proposal by following His example into death.
5) it serves as a substitution of the debt that man owes. It is not the literal payment.
6) It supports the law because the creator of the law is justified substituting the actual punishment (2nd death to sinners) while simultaneously forgiving sinners. The reason is because even though the letter of the law is NOT upheld the Spirit of the Law is upheld. Saints die to themselves and live for Christ. They are new creatures. And, Christ gave Himself up to prove that the law is precious and not to be ignored.
And, if a believer continues in sin then there is no longer a sacrifice available for them (Heb 10:26-39). That means the payment wasn't the actual fine but a sub. and that God is truly forgiving men of sin...and is justified putting that debt back on them if they keep sinning. Parable of the 10,000 talents.
@@Zaloomination elects who are in Christ or elected to be in Christ? Which one?
42:43 John Owen is very difficult to read but worth the investment.
He believes there are non elect children... Do you believe him??
Jesus Christ is the Perfect High Priest.
Jesus Christ lives to make intercession for those He died for for the ones the Father gave to Him.
Yes! Just as the mortal high priest made atonement not for every nation but for the nation of Israel, our Great high priest perfectly and forever intercedes not for every person in the world but for his elect called out of the world.
I wasn't satisfied with their answer to the "whole world" objection. I frame it as jesus died for the world meaning individuals in nations not limited to his chosen nation Israel, is that what you think?
@@Zaloomination
The Greek word, "kosmos" is the word for "the world" (as well as 6 other possibilities). But the word, "kosmos" seems to be highly dependent upon the context the word is in, rather than a strict meaning.
Like in John 3:16, "kosmos" seems to be in the context of God the Father actually giving His Son up for "the world". But in the totality of scripture all together, it seems as though, "the world" are all of God's people, the believing ones, AND those who have been and have yet to come.
That, "kosmos" has a non-strict usage of the word, "all". "All" of who? That when scripture talks about groups of impersonal things, "all" means "all". But when scripture talks about personal things (people), then categories, classes, and groups are described.
Thus...
"For God so loved the world...ALL HIS PEOPLE...(a category of people)..." John 3:16
"...Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world...ALL THOSE THE FATHER GAVE TO THE SON...(a category of people)!" John 1:29
"And He said to them, "Go into all the world...EVERYWHERE...(impersonal category)." Mark 16:15
(Mark 16:15 is about location rather than people, because "in all people" is inappropriate on multiple levels.)
Hope this helps. : )
@@Zaloomination
(My answer to your question is the last sentence.)
The Greek word "kosmos", has about six different translations, one of them being, "the world".
There are words like, "theopneustos" which have a definitive set meaning: "God Breathed". But the word, "kosmos" seems to be highly dependent upon the context surrounding it.
From my understanding, in Scripture, the word, "all" is highly dependent upon personal or impersonal subjects. If impersonal, then "all" literally means all. But if personal, like people, then "all" is referring to a group, category, or class.
Same thing with the word, "kosmos" or "the world".
In John 3:16, "For God so loved the world...ALL HIS PEOPLE...(because "world" may be referring to people, and we know from all of scripture God cares for His people above others.)"
In Mark 16:15, "Go into all the world...EVERYWHERE...(as World in this context is referring to location rather than exclusively people.)"
And in Luke 11:50, "So that the blood of all the prophets shed since the foundation of the world...THE CREATION OF THE PLANET...(is actually talking about the physical Planet itself, not a set or group of people)..."
In the Book of John we see a lot of personal context with the word, "kosmos" referring to people, because the entire book is about the person, Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
So, to answer your question, "kosmos" seems to be like the word, "all". Rather than having a very set specific definition, "kosmos" seems to be highly dependent upon the context that it's being used for.
Flowers lost the debate all those years ago….and Jeff has lived rent free in his soul ever since.
Why doesn't Apologia invite Dr Flowers on the show.. The truth does not fear scrutiny... Flowers continues to invite all on his show..
Flowers still has an open invitation for Jeff to come on the show and respond, so you have that exactly backwards.
@@biagiomaffettone1497 James white is debating him in March, I’ll be there.
@@fisherhoward562 If James White brings in Calvinism into John 6 he will have to prove it... Or he will be accused of Eisegesis
@@biagiomaffettone1497
You people abuse scripture to say John 6 is only for the Jews or as some synergists say, only for the disciples. Which creates complete dung inconsistency throughout the rest of scripture. It’s only your provie folk who create eisegesis with this text. The irony 🤦♂️
Calvinism is taught in Church. And, OSAS is a derivative of the P of TULIP. OSAS is possibly the most popular doctrine on Salvation in Evangelical Churches.
Thank you for the clear way you explained all this. Even in the beginning around 16:00 how you explained how we don't follow a man named Calvin it is a historical shorthand for a system of beliefs derived from the scriptures, especially pertaining to the nature of man and the nature of God's grace. Thank you!
I became a Calvinist before I ever even read John Calvin or RC Sproul. So nobody can use that insult on me. I read the Bible, saw Calvinism. Then I came across John Calvin and other reformers and I was like oh wow I guess the way I see scripture is Calvinism.
@@maxmateush7090 reading 1 corinthians 1-2 really compelled me, it's so clear we can't choose God without the spirit
The Bible is Truth, read and study and know your Bible, do not follow any man or listen to any man and take what he sais as absolute truth, even if he uses scriptures and is called teacher. Seek, search, study and pray the Holy Spirit leads you to all Truth.
Jesus saves 100% of the people who turn to him in humility and faith. *He does not fail !!*
So it really depends on if they choose Him?
Who are those that turn to him in humility and faith? Those chosen before the foundation of the world. Take heart brothers and sisters, he won’t cast off those who come to him for divine help. In fact, He ordains and promises it. How else could God promise such things to sinners?
My God is in the heavens and he does all that he pleases. He works ALL things according to the council of His will; to the praise of His glorious grace!
@@ChristisLord2023read the book of romans. I believe that chapters 8,9 and 10 go into detail about this topic
@@ChristisLord2023 God's saves us by grace through faith... His requirement is that we have to believe to have grace poured upon us.. He demands it.. And he has given us the ability to chose...
Deu: 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 *I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live*
@@joshuakuderik6874 God has given us the ability to chose...
Due: 30:19 *I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live*
*Hey Apologia !!! why don't you invite Dr Flowers on your show. We would all like to see that. You can win him over with your superior arguments and Biblical insight*
No amount of logic will ever convince the deceived of their deception. Just like salvation, it is solely the work of God. Pray for Dr Flowers.
@@bayardblack4930 What exactly is your objections on Dr Flowers ?
@@biagiomaffettone1497 Well, there is a great deal that I find harmful in his teaching on salvation. I think he is inadvertently applying human attributes on a God that exists outside of time, space, and matter resulting in the diminishing of God and the elevation of man. Most importantly his views I find most deceived reduce the perfect sacrifice of Jesus into something that requires a decision from man to be made effectual. So for those who follow his thinking on salvation matters, Jesus sacrifice is not enough. I think that those who take up this line of thinking are continually doing mental gymnastics to make God into something they can pallet, rather than trusting in an almighty God even when we don't understand the why.
@@bayardblack4930 1)(((Well, there is a great deal that I find harmful in his teaching on salvation. I think he is inadvertently applying human attributes on a God that exists outside of time, space, and matter resulting in the diminishing of God and the elevation of man. )))
We both agree that the Bible is the standard we have and this is what we need to look to. So we don’t have to worry about God being outside of time and space. To reason beyond what the Bible says is speculation. The “Human Attributes” you speak of are per what his word spells out. You need to be more specific on which attributes you are speaking of.
2)(((Most importantly his views I find most deceived reduce the perfect sacrifice of Jesus into something that requires a decision from man to be made effectual)))
The choice of man to look to Jesus comes from the work of the Holy Spirit which has convicted him of his sin. But that does not obligate God to save him. Man can decide to do all sorts of things for God, But he does not have to reciprocate that action… Man looks to Jesus, as the Israelite looked to the Serpent on the cross. When he does so in faith God WILL save him. Man’s response to the Holy Spirit does NOT effectuate salvation. God does...... I hear this line of thinking from Calvinists and wonder if they really understand the other position.
God has given us the ability to choose, as can been seen in many passages of the Bible, but that chose is not effectual. It is God’s requirement that we *have to choose* Due 30:19 and many other passages.
God can give us the ability to choose and still be sovereign. Does this diminish God? Or does it only heighten his sovereign power? I say it proves how powerful he truly is. Yet man is not elevated.
3)(((So for those who follow his thinking on salvation matters, Jesus sacrifice is not enough. I think that those who take up this line of thinking are continually doing mental gymnastics to make God into something they can pallet, rather than trusting in an almighty God even when we don't understand the why)))
Jesus’ sacrifice is more than enough. We are as useless as the Israelite in the wilderness, who had poison flowing through their veins moments from death. And we are told that if we just look to the serpent, we will be healed… Jesus, when less than 48 hours from the cross in John 3, points to us to this moment in time.
Since the Bible is our standard then help me to understand where these Idea are found in the bible, because I don’t see them in the pages of scriptures:
1)The Idea, that God predestines people before they are born to go to Heaven and Hell
2)The Idea, That God determines everything, not one rouge molecule, evil, every action and thought
3)And why someone who goes to Hell does not have a perfect excuse before God?
@@bayardblack4930 1) (((Well, there is a great deal that I find harmful in his teaching on salvation. I think he is inadvertently applying human attributes on a God that exists outside of time, space, and matter resulting in the diminishing of God and the elevation of man. )))
We both agree that the Bible is the standard we have and this is what we need to look to. So we don’t have to worry about God being outside of time and space. To reason beyond what the Bible says is speculation. The “Human Attributes” you speak of are per what his word spells out. You need to be more specific on which attributes you are speaking of.
2) (((Most importantly his views I find most deceived reduce the perfect sacrifice of Jesus into something that requires a decision from man to be made effectual)))
The choice of man to look to Jesus comes from the work of the Holy Spirit which has convicted him of his sin. But that does not obligate God to save him. Man can decide to do all sorts of things for God, But he does not have to reciprocate that action… Man looks to Jesus, as the Israelite looked to the Serpent on the cross. When he does so in faith God WILL save him. Man’s response to the Holy Spirit does NOT effectuate salvation. God does. I hear this line of thinking from Calvinists and wonder if they really understand the other position.
God has given us the ability to choose, as can been seen in many passages of the Bible, but that chose is not effectual. It is God’s requirement that we have to choose. Due 30:19 and many other passages.
God can give us the ability to choose and still be sovereign. Does this diminish God? Or does it only heighten his sovereign power? I say it proves how powerful he truly is. Yet man is not elevated.
3) (((So for those who follow his thinking on salvation matters, Jesus sacrifice is not enough. I think that those who take up this line of thinking are continually doing mental gymnastics to make God into something they can pallet, rather than trusting in an almighty God even when we don't understand the why)))
Jesus’ sacrifice is more than enough. We are as useless as the Israelite in the wilderness, who had poison flowing through their veins moments from death. And we are told that if we just look to the serpent, we will be healed… Jesus, in John 3, points to us to this moment in time.
Since the Bible is our standard then help me to understand where these Idea are found in the bible, because I don’t see them in the pages of scriptures:
1) The Idea, that God predestines people before they are born to go to Heaven and Hell
2) The Idea, That God determines everything, not one rouge molecule, evil, every action and thought
3) And why someone who goes to Hell does not have a perfect excuse before God?
1) (((Well, there is a great deal that I find harmful in his teaching on salvation. I think he is inadvertently applying human attributes on a God that exists outside of time, space, and matter resulting in the diminishing of God and the elevation of man. )))
We both agree that the Bible is the standard we have and this is what we need to look to. So we don’t have to worry about God being outside of time and space. To reason beyond what the Bible says is speculation. The “Human Attributes” you speak of are per what his word spells out. You need to be more specific on which attributes you are speaking of.
2) (((Most importantly his views I find most deceived reduce the perfect sacrifice of Jesus into something that requires a decision from man to be made effectual)))
The choice of man to look to Jesus comes from the work of the Holy Spirit which has convicted him of his sin. But that does not obligate God to save him. Man can decide to do all sorts of things for God, But he does not have to reciprocate that action… Man looks to Jesus, as the Israelite looked to the Serpent on the cross. When he does so in faith God WILL save him. Man’s response to the Holy Spirit does NOT effectuate salvation. God does. I hear this line of thinking from Calvinists and wonder if they really understand the other position.
God has given us the ability to choose, as can been seen in many passages of the Bible, but that chose is not effectual. It is God’s requirement that we have to choose. Due 30:19 and many other passages.
God can give us the ability to choose and still be sovereign. Does this diminish God? Or does it only heighten his sovereign power? I say it proves how powerful he truly is. Yet man is not elevated.
3) (((So for those who follow his thinking on salvation matters, Jesus sacrifice is not enough. I think that those who take up this line of thinking are continually doing mental gymnastics to make God into something they can pallet, rather than trusting in an almighty God even when we don't understand the why)))
Jesus’ sacrifice is more than enough. We are as useless as the Israelite in the wilderness, who had poison flowing through their veins moments from death. And we are told that if we just look to the serpent, we will be healed… Jesus, in John 3, points to us to this moment in time.
Since the Bible is our standard then help me to understand where these Idea are found in the bible, because I don’t see them in the pages of scriptures:
1) The Idea, that God predestines people before they are born to go to Heaven and Hell
2) The Idea, That God determines everything, not one rouge molecule, evil, every action and thought
3) And why someone who goes to Hell does not have a perfect excuse before God?
*(**19:35**) You pour a lot of Calvinism into that verse 1Peter 1-2 does not teach predestination you have to force it in there*
It literally describes predestination 😂
@@caseycockerham3925 Those who believe in God are the elect. God's plan was to conform every elect person into the image of Christ before the world was, through, sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ
You state *"It literally describes predestination"*
So where does it state that God;
a) Will predetermine all things
b) He will determine who goes to Heaven and Hell
c) That the reprobate will never believe in God according to his decree
Please Educate me
@biagiomaffettone1497 it opens by calling God's people the elect. The word means chosen. They were chosen by God, not that they chose him. He chose them according to foreknowledge. This means literally that he foreknew, according to his own purpose, who his chosen (elect) would be. This is predestination. If you're wondering when the timing of God's choosing took place, it corresponds to Eph1:4-5 and 11-12. Notice they were chosen according to the predetermined plan of the purpose of his will. 1st Peter 1-2 are just 2 versus. There not some exhaustive theological synopsis, but yes, they do teach predestination.
@@caseycockerham3925 1)“He chose them according to foreknowledge. This means literally that he foreknew, according to his own purpose, who his chosen (elect) would be. This is predestination”
Yes, God is outside of time and space so, he can see the beginning and the end at the same time and every second in between. He is omniscient. Knowing something is going to happen is *NOT* determining it. So, this is not the predestination Calvinists claim.
2) If you're wondering when the timing of God's choosing took place, it corresponds to Eph1:4-5 and 11-12. Notice they were chosen according to the predetermined plan of the purpose of his will.
Eph1:4 He chose us who are in Christ… to receive all the spiritual blessings mentioned.
It does not say he chose some to be placed in Christ and then they would receive the blessings
Also see Eph1:13
In Him you also trusted, after *you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation* in whom also, *having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise*
They were sealed with the Holy spirit *After* they believed, not before as Calvinists claim. They first believed and then they were placed in Christ. *They freely looked to the Serpent and then they were saved*
3) “1st Peter 1-2 are just 2 versus. There not some exhaustive theological synopsis, but yes, they do teach predestination”
I agree it is not an exhaustive synopsis an yet Apologia and other treat it as such. The only way it teaches predestination is if you pour in your own presupposition
@@caseycockerham3925 1)“He chose them according to foreknowledge. This means literally that he foreknew, according to his own purpose, who his chosen (elect) would be. This is predestination”
Yes, God is outside of time and space so, he can see the beginning and the end at the same time and every second in between. He is omniscient. Knowing something is going to happen is *NOT* determining it. So, this is not the predestination Calvinists claim.
2) If you're wondering when the timing of God's choosing took place, it corresponds to Eph1:4-5 and 11-12. Notice they were chosen according to the predetermined plan of the purpose of his will.
Eph1:4 He chose us who are in Christ… to receive all the spiritual blessings mentioned.
It does not say he chose some to be placed in Christ and then they would receive the blessings
Also see Eph1:13
13 In Him you also trusted, after *you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation* in whom also, *having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise*
They were sealed with the Holy spirit *After* they believed, not before as Calvinists claim. They first believed and then they were placed in Christ. *They looked to the Serpent and then they were saved*
3) “1st Peter 1-2 are just 2 versus. There not some exhaustive theological synopsis, but yes, they do teach predestination”
I agree it is not an exhaustive synopsis an yet Apologia and other treat it as such. The only way it teaches predestination is if you pour in your own presupposition
As a believer I can say Jesus died for a new covenant that allows all men everywhere regardless of Nationality or genealogy to enter His presence and serve in His priesthood. First covenant had fault, second covenant is now perfect from the perfect one
God decreed me not to be a Calvinist. God be the Glory 🙌🏼
Wait til youre in heaven
@@PurePuritan see you there
Just as the old mortal priests sacrificed not for all nations but for the nation of Israel, Jesus our immortal great high priest intercedes perfectly and forever not for every single person but his own people
limited atonement should be called unlimited atonement limited by total sin..
it depends on several things..
1 do you believe the Word of GOD is correct.
2 do you understand atonement..
3and it depends on the word EFFECTIVELY...
The doctrine of limited atonement - the L in TULIP - teaches that Christ EFFECTIVELY redeems from every people “only those who were chosen from eternity to salvation” ..
People also ask What is the meaning of limited atonement?
The doctrine states that though the death of Jesus Christ is sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world.. but in reality,,and practicality,, the atonement of Christ's death works itself out in only the elect, thereby leading them without fail to salvation.
nothing in calvinism stops or limits anyone from coming to salvation.. GOD wants everyone to come to salvation..even in calvinism.. anything else is heresy in both protestantism and catholiscism
Where do you get this in the Bible *“only those who were chosen from eternity to salvation”* ..
Catholicism is a Cult.
If courtroom analogy is what you want.
God is the judge,
Jesus is the free court appointed lawyer,
And you have a right to represent yourself. (Don't reject the intercessor)
So why did God say "choose life." What's the point of sharing the Gospel if most are doomed from birth? I came across Leighton Flowers and he makes perfect sense.
Oh boy yall are so far behind the curve....read Romans 9 homeboy....the commands and gospel are to resonate the Holy Spirit to your spirit...to condemn or to regenerate. Leighton Flowers...oi vai
Why does the judge sentence someone to prison and then demand they pay restitution without being able to pay?
2timothy 4:3-4
@@caseycockerham3925well obviously you are flattening our the multi diamond orb theology of the Bible. Once you see, sorry once God causes you to see, the 12 dimensional infinitely orbed truth then you will understand. Until then you just don’t understand calvinism. 😆
@CCiPencil very true 👍
The question really lies in is the Sanctification what justifies. Or are we justified before Sanctification. Which I believe Paul clearly laid it out that we are justified before
Something our non-reformed brothers need to marinate on is this... The question is not: Why would God choose to save some and not others? The question is: Why He would choose to save any of us at all?
if i had a dollar for every calvinist that said this :) answer, because God wants relationship with us. because He doesn't want any lost. He is love and wants ALL to repent and believe which is why Jesus was a sacrifice for ALL :) hope this helps
@rocketsurgeon1746 So he wants this so badly but can't effect it's change? Also, scripture doesn't teach that God wants or desires anything from us as if we could provide something to or for him. It actually teaches the opposite, in fact. Acts17:25
@@caseycockerham3925 needs and wants are very different.
psalm 149:4 for the Lord takes pleasure in His people;
He will beautify the [b]humble with salvation.
@@rocketsurgeon1746 If "Jesus was a sacrifice for ALL" then we would all be saved. We know that isn't the case. Jesus is the perfect sacrifice.
@@bayardblack4930 we agree Jesus is the perfect sacrifice. Do you think it is possible for Jesus to be the sacrifice for ALL who accept the gift of salvation by believing in Him?
2 questions.Why does God choose to damn some to hell and grace some to heaven? Why do the saved need to repent? If they are already saved then confession would not make sense. Biblical answers would be helpful, because I’m struggling to find where it says this. Thank you! God Bless.
Because of the sanctity of God, we don't deserve nothing more than death because of our sin. Suppose that there are 10 persons, 5 are saved and 5 are condemned. God is not being merciful with 5 people and unjust with the other 5. He is being merciful with 5 people and just with the other 5. God can give us mercy or the justice we deserve but he is never unjust. This makes you even more grateful when you know that God has poured his mercy upon you, we are not worthy. And a true faith and the knowledge of our rotten state beacuse of sin and the need of a saviour and a sincere repented heart is given by His mercy, it's not of our will, because we are spiritually dead, we can never get true faith or real repeantance without His grace and His Spirit upon us. Thats how I understand it, if someone can correct me, please. Peace and God bless you all.
1) Because it pleased Him to do so
EPHESIANS 1:5
He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,
2) Regeneration/being born again, while preordained, is something that happens in time. We are all born as sons of Adam and sin, so we for sure need to repent. We are not born saved just preordained to be saved. There is an order to it.
Roman 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
@@danielvalderrabano9566my response to this would be a very important question for this belief. Did Jesus die for the condemned 5? With this belief the answer is no, Jesus did not die for all but for those that he chooses will go to heaven. I need a Bible answer due to the sola scriptura belief.
@@fuzzycounsellor9147 thank you for the response! for your second point, if only a few have predestination, then repentance is not necessary. With this view, God has already decided who goes to hell and who goes to heaven. I see no need for repentance, I’m just wondering why this view it’s necessary to do any good works if you are just destined to be saved or not. The last part with being glorified is that yes, God know who will persevere to the end but this doesn’t mean those who fell away never received initial grace.
@@bradymott4714 Hello, my dear brother in Christ. God has taught me so much the last few weeks. And something that I've learned is that there are many things that I don't know. But one thing I know, maybe the only thing I'm truly sure about, Is that the most important thing is to love Him with all our heart and to love our brethren. And if we focus only in this, all things will fall in it's right place. I recommend you to look for "the new revelation" by Jakob Lorber. It will be the most challenging thing you will come across as a Chrisitian but it can also become the greatest of all blessings. Sorry for not answer your question the way you expected. May God bless you and guide you in the name of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, Cheers my brother.
Not my will, but yours Father
Interesting side note, I noticed that the LSB translation of 1 Pet 1:2 is "...chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to the obedience of Jesus Christ and the sprinkling of His blood..."
LSB is not the only translation which translates it this way. Notice the phrase "to the obedience _of_ Christ Jesus and the sprinkling of His blood." It would appear to me that Peter is saying that we have been chosen to the active and passive obedience of Christ, and actually isn't saying anything about our obedience to Him. I could be wrong, of course, but if the obedience is Christ's obedience to the law and not ours, I think that makes even a stronger case for doctrines of grace, since there is no room in our salvation for our obedience.
Enjoy man camp guys, hopefully the rain doesnt ruin it
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Who is the co-host of this show? Do they ever mention his name?
Some Calvinists are TULIP 5 pointers, some 4, 3, 2, 1, and most aren't aware of any other beliefs he held (such as double predestination, carried to its logical conclusion of infant damnation, and all the other teachings). The only agreement among all Calvinists is that they are the elect of God and given salvation before the world began. If it weren't for this one claim of his, likely church history would not even note he existed.
I would actually read the Institutes, and understand Calvin would have been mentioned within the whole of church history regardless of this doctrine. His many commentaries as well as other writings are a vital part of historic Protestantism. Predestination was just such a small part of what he talked about.
Well if it's free will homes then infants are still damned....gotta choose right
Hate to tell you, but Calvin didn't come up with these doctrines
@@caseycockerham3925exactly
Rc Sproul said a 4 point Calvinist is another name for an Arminian. In other words you can't have Calvinism without all of the points.
52:30-53:45 How are the statements at the beginning and end of this clip not completely contradictory? God in his unchangeable decree created someone for destruction and to hate them from all eternity. But God loves all of his creatures in the next breath. So it's loving to create them for them to do wicked awful things for a temporary time and then eternally judge them and punish them for something that he created them to do. When it was decreed unchangeably for them to do this.
Read Romans 9:6-23 several times
Why not start at Romans 9:1 and go till like Romans 11. I think they're all connected. It's really interesting that you want to skip the first five verses of that chapter. And if you're going to try to understand contacts, maybe you should read the book of Malachi.
You're understanding. Calvinism is wicked.
@@JAGChristianos how so?
@@caseycockerham3925
The idea of total depravity includes the inability to obey the commands of God/Jesus perfectly because of "sin nature." So, God gives commands and Calvinists teach that we can't obey them. That creates a mindset of hopelessness and it subtly slanders the character of God in the sense that He gave laws that cannot be kept by men in this lifetime. And, for those who God never zaps with regeneration they are never able to obey either and yet are held accountable for their actions even though their agency wasn't theirs. It makes God evil.
And then on top of that, for those who believe they've been "saved" it isn't because of what they've done but rather the fact that God chose them. It leads to an elitist and prideful mentality which God hates. So, Calvinists become blinded by arrogance. Scripture says "knowledge puffs up but love edifies." Pay attention to the Spirit Calvinists exude. Many/Most but not all embody this trait.
And, continuing on that point, if the atonement works as they describe then there's nothing they can do to "lose salvation." They are guaranteed a gold ticket which give them a license to sin. Not all people who believe in OSAS or the P of the TULIP will abuse this license by sinning everyday but I've lost track long ago of how many people say "we all sin everyday and can't stop." That idea contradicts scripture...
Heb 10:26-39
1 John chapters 1-3
John 15:1-10
Romans 11
and many more...
The very nature and purpose of the Great Commission teaches against limited atonement. Matt. 28:16-20.
Exactly!!!! This is what happens when people put theology before what God is actually teaching. Didn't realize these guys were Calvinist.
It sad because he out right says "those verses aren't saying what you think they are saying." They have to plainly and openly deny God's word to support their heresy.
Nope...so God doesn't know the future...n all reality is a crap shoot....good Goin Deist
My brain might not be firing on all cylinders at the moment, but I don't see how that passage has anything to do with limited atonement or how it is a refutation of it. Would you please explain?
Everyone limits the atonement in some way unless you're a raging universalist.
@@1stCorinthians1.21 My premise pertains to the universal offer of salvation preached to the world. Matt. 24:14. If atonement is a limited “offer” this commission is construed incorrectly.
The limiting factor is the person that commits blasphemy against the Spirit and refuses to remain in covenant with Christ. Adam and Eve removed themselves from covenant with Christ, but they had the opportunity to enter back in via the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Gospel of Christ.
Challenge for the people taking the negative, steel man the doctrines of grace and then speak.
Limited Atonement??? Jeff Durbin needs to see more Soteriology 101 of Leighton Flowers
Oi Vai...how bout you proof texts....
2 Timothy 4:3-4
@@jeffreyAferguson read the prior pronouns homes...in Greek it comes across as all kinds of peoples
Leighton Flower’s arguments against Calvinism is very poor. I used to be an Arminian and switched to Calvinism and the Acts 13:48 passage was the light bulb turning on for me. Then I listened to RC Sproul and found harmony with the doctrine and the proof text he referenced. I later listened to James White debate with Flowers on Romans 9 and Flowers failed to exegete the Romans 9 passage and instead argued from an emotional stand point without breaking down the chapter verse by verse. Flowers is not good at defending his doctrine.
@@haiasinosdnah0813 I'll have to check out the debate, what brought me over to calvinism was first reforming my understanding of free will, I had this libertarian understanding of freedom and once I shook that I was able to grasp the hermeneutics of reformed theology, systematic theology and covenant theology.
When you deal with verses that seem to oppose Calvanisim could you spend a solid chunk of time on Hebrews 10:26-29? There are a ton of opposing views across the interwebs. Thanks God bless love the vids
It's only true through Calvin lenses. Jeff needs to challenge his presuppositions like he did with his eschatology.
Not my will, but yours Father
And the best way to get someone to change their view is to provide a better one, one that accounts to scripture better than the Reformed view. It's just that people don't like Calvinism but don't have an alternative that they post drive by comments that say little of value.
Short answer: yes
Long answer: Leviticus
How does Leviticus support Limited Atonement? 🤔
@@dandeliontea7 The priest's work would cover the sins of his people. Everything was done for the Jews, not all of the other tribes on earth. The atonement was particular and limited.
@Are_You_Sure_Bro Dr Michael Brown debunked this reasoning when James White brought it up. It doesn't work. Calvinists need to study their OT more closely.
@Are_You_Sure_Bro Michael Brown debunked that idea years ago when James white attempted it in their debate. Calvinists don't understand the OT, that's why you guys always get Romans 9 and other passages wrong.
@@dandeliontea7 Please show me in scripture that the temple work of the Jewish priest was meant to be applied to everyone in the entire world and not just the Jews. All due respect to Dr Brown, but just telling me that he debunked it isn't very compelling. I'll need something more than that if you actually mean for me to take your comment seriously.
This is where you're wrong Jeff.
Proof...?
How so ?
@@caseycockerham3925 -Calvinism & all 5 points of TULIP is a false doctrine and is also an enemy of Soulwinning. Jesus commanded us to win the lost on their way to hellfire.
➡ James 5:20
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
➡ Jude 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
➡ John 11:25-26 king James- Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Calvanism is HERESY.
It was condemned by the Orthodox Church.
-Original sin as defined by Calvinism/reformed theology is heretical.
Please explain how God creates every unique individual with a sin “nature” but is not the creator of sin?
It’s that “nature” your god created that is also the basis for that individuals automatic condemnation.
Ridiculous.
@@tbateman33 alright, that tells me absolutely nothing about the question.
Did Christ pay for the sins of the ones He told that their father was the devil? If some peoples father is the devil, did Jesus pay for their sins. Why do they pay for their sins in eternal punishment, if their sins gave been paid for by Christ?. This needs an answer if you want the truth.
One of my most favorite verses is Titus 3:5, but read the entire chapter to get every drop😋 Then again would love to see one verse in context where any person ever chooses God. My natural man hates god, the bible is clear there is enmity between God.
There is one thing the is most annoying in this entire discussion... That is the translation of the text from the original text (in Hebrew/Greek) into Engerish... Might assert anyone saying man would ever choose God, thought a number of sermons by Dr. White leaves absolutely no doubt it is all god and man would never accept God...
Sad to see the comments about churches that are pre-trib, all the while later making comments God hates divisions, and makes comments about maintaining unity.
Sincere question from a novice Christian: How does -Jesus ONLY dying for His sheep (on a particular and personal level), and every person having the choice to choose Him as their savior - contradict one another? My understanding of God is that He is all-knowing, so He'd be aware of those who would choose Him, yet could still offer salvation for all, be rejected by some, and die on the cross ONLY for those who trust in Him. God knows what's happened in the past, present, and future, so why couldn't Jesus's sacrifice be made in that moment for all those who HAVE/WILL choose Him, since He knows who His followers are/will be?
For example, Jesus's sacrifice covered Abraham, who was faithful in the past. Isn't it possible for Christ to know those who would choose Him in the future, and die for them in that moment as well? While also giving everyone throughout time the opportunity to put their faith in Him? I hope this question makes sense, I appreciate the clarification! :)
If Jesus knows who will believe in him and he dies for them exclusively, what is the problem, since no one who doesn't repent will be rejected? Yes it is more than possible for him to know who he saves because they are given to him by the Father before all time 😌
The wind blows where it will, and you cannot tell where it’s going, so it is with everyone who is born of the spirit. Why can’t we just accept that? Maybe we don’t understand exactly how everyone gets saved. It’s God‘s work it’s his glory, sometimes in all of our professing to be wise, we become foolsand we preach a false gospel that’s actually scaring other people that maybe they weren’t loved by God how sad
This is the clearest and most well articulated explanation of limited atonement I've heard. Well done gentlemen
If you have an understanding of the atonement that causes an interpretation of other scripture resulting in contradiction...then maybe the foundational understanding is in error.
The atonement isn't a literal payment. It is a substitute.
YOU don't punish an innocent man for the sins of the wicked.
And, if a payment is demanded then forgiveness isn't a thing.
If he supposedly died for all people and then many can still die and go to punishment then how can anyone have certainty that he actually was able to save anyone either????? These things MUST be seriously thought out so people can see the result of these unbiblical teachings. The doctrines of grace/Calvinism is biblical.❤️
”But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.“
Hebrews 2:9
This one verse alone disproves Calvinism. In Calvinism your constantly seeking for assurance of your salvation and can never have peace because your looking at your own life and how your performing. Rest in Christ alone he finished it all.
It's very easy to disprove Calvinism with one verse out of context. It's much harder if you keep reading. Who is the "everyone" in verse 9?
For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing _many sons to glory,_ should make the founder of _their salvation_ perfect through suffering.
Hebrews 2:10
The everyone in 9 is the many in 10. God is founder of _their salvation._
And again,
“I will put my trust in him.”
And again,
“Behold, I and _the children God has given me.”_
Hebrews 2:13
Where do we see God giving people to Jesus? John 6:37 and 10:29 - speaking of specific people groups.
Since therefore _the children_ share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
Hebrews 2:14
Note that it is for the children of verses 13 and 14 that Jesus partook death. Contextually, the "everyone" of Hebrews 9 means every one of the children that God gave Jesus. Those who "put their trust in him" (v13). The "my brothers" (v12) and "his brothers" (v17).
This is why zooming in on one word in one verse makes you say silly things and exegeting a text makes you a Calvinist.
Tell me something guys. Does your spouse love you and stay loyal because they have no other choice? Or because they choose to be? It’s a two way bridge. Love must have a choice
If I am a Calvinist this verse means nothing...
2Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Paul says "we" which includes Christians. And, only Christians can do good (according to Calvinists) so that's a confirmation that Christians are included.
But, if I am a Calvinist how can I be judged for my deeds if Christ paid for my bad deeds already? (past, present and future)
Did Paul not know how the atonement worked or are you guys getting it wrong?
Even John Calvin himself didn't teach limited atonement. This is the only point that I'm not sure about.
1:04:30 - Luke 19:10 - notice his pause because this disproves his Calvinistic belief and he ran past that as fast as he could.
It's so weird seeing the comments here thankful for the doctrines of grace and denying that Jesus fails to save any of his people, after spending any amount of time on Soteriology 101's comment page. It's nice
who says Jesus fails? that is a lazy and false assertion
@rocketsurgeon1746 He's not saying that, my guy. Read his comment again.
@@caseycockerham3925 that is a standard calv question to the non calv when talking about Jesus dying for ALL. you know that :)
@@rocketsurgeon1746 I'm not sure what question you're referring to
@@caseycockerham3925 standard question by calvs when someone says Jesus died for all. they give two options. 1. did Jesus fail because not everyone is saved or 2. Jesus didn't die for all, thus only the "elect"
Calvinists are grace changers. Jude warned Saints about those who would sneak into the flock.
I thank God for John Owen's insight into the scope of the atonement. His argument put the perfect amount of cracks in my former belief in universal atonement, making a window for me to see actually what the scriptures teach. All praise be to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit for my salvation
With love I have not seen a true in-depth view on the historical account of Calvinistic theology from reformed brothers and sisters.
The Calvinistic framework imposed onto scripture is never questioned for what it actually is, eisegesis.
Seek the historical foundation of this man-made philosophy, and you fill find errors…and the conviction of the Holy Spirit will lead you to remove the framework, and allow the Bible to interpret itself… true exegesis.
Thankfully I stopped calling myself a reformed Calvinist, and simply a Bible believing, Bible obeying, born again Christian!
Glorify God, boldly proclaim the Gospel, disciple, baptize and PRAY, STUDY, OBEY!
Amen.
With grace, before you respond, ask yourself if you genuinely dug deep and read Augustine’s ACTUAL writings, Calvin’s, Luther and Zwinlis ACTUAL writings. Have you truly studied the ante-nicene fathers compared to the above.
OR
Have you saturated yourself with reformed Calvinist preachers (MacArthur, Sproul, G3, White, Washer… whom I love) by reading their actual writings, watched vids and listened to podcasts MOSTLY.
People who are saved love the truth. If Calvinism is not true are you really saved? I hope I got my point across.
What happens if the person believes with every fiber of his being that Calvinism is true?
I can see that he sincerely believes in what he's saying is the truth even though it may not be but he may not know that.
@@hansmo8282 Jesus said you can know the truth.
@@hansmo8282 The truth is a person. If he knew the truth he would not believe Calvinism.
@@coreykeplinger3391 Grace covers our ignorance.
We need you to come to Omaha Nebraska!
"Blot out your name from the book of life" means it was in there prior.... No one else can steal your salvation but you can give it up.
17:40 Sure, God is free, but in his sovereignty he decided to give man freedom to decide. Do you not think God is strong enough to have done that?
Salvation was accomplished at the cross. When people ask us when we were saved, we should respond with, 'when Christ died on the cross's.
John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
43:21 No, you don’t have to get into universalism, logically or biblically. This is dumb. Owen’s is dumb. The atonement 100% accomplished satisfying God’s justice need for payment for sins. But it does not automatically grant eternal life. IF man repents and surrenders to God, then God will grant eternal life.
Isn't DMT also found in our body.. does it follow logically that I should go dive in to it.
Nad - anfedamine ish?
Calvijn was a theologian. Who was Very true to the bible. Hè also said that you are saved by Grace alone. Calvinism was related with rules. Like: are you feeling saved? And how would you know? Because people who are Christian do good works. So when I do good works, ergo I am Christian. True, but Many people now tried to show good works because they were scared they were nt hristian anymore. Sad. But we are Christian and saved only by grace.
You deny God: Hebrews 7:25
King James Version
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
John 6:51 (KJV) I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Matthew 22:8-10
King James Version
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
KJVOist deny God
The God of Calvinism isn't very sovereign because He isn't able to save people without making them robots.
Calvinsm says that we cannot do, the exact things that the Bible is calling us to do over and over. John Calvin didn't have computers either. Just pull up all the verses which state who Christ died for and see how they contradict limited atonement. Case closed.
Love the show guys, can we just have the music go away sooner? It’s so loud we can’t hear y’all talking.
The introduction makes it sound like people who don’t identify as a Calvinist don’t believe in God’s grace; why would you say that?
Read on homeboy. Unless one is born from above he can not see heaven...new birth precedes faith..
He says that to try to save his system. But the system leads to some very disturbing consequences
@@btodd777disturbing to who?
As human beings we make the foolish mistake of thinking that God is concerned about our opinions 🤣
@@btodd777◄ Romans 9:15 ►
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
I agree with definite atonement as scripture teaches it. But why not also affirm that God also intends Christ to really die for even those who refuse to believe?
Now people don’t believe according to their own independent agency.
That is, God has multiple intentions in the atonement. We are told that God is the savior for all people, but *especially* of those that believe (1 Tim. 4:10).
And there are scriptures that speak to even false teachers who have destructive heresies, “who deny the Master who bought them” (2 Peter 2:1).
Why not affirm both in a different sense, a six point Calvinism?
Why lock in to one divine intent? Can’t Christ die for all, because God wishes that they would repent and has provided for all, yet because his blood is rejected he also acts in his election to save those appointed to eternal life?
It seems scripture might require a double affirmation.
The Order of Love:
We are to love God with all of our hearts and minds (Matthew 22:37). Without first loving God, we cannot love Christ. And without loving Jesus, we cannot love each other. For it is written in 1 Corinthians 11:3 that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. We must not distort God's order of things, yet most of the world has and is being led to hell. Jesus speaks the words of God the Father, and to try and change them will lead to death (Rev 22:18-19). Just as Jesus said when he prayed to the Father, “and this is life eternal, that they might know YOU the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:3).
I think the atonement is potential and not effacious. Here's why: Jesus is the savior; the one who accomplished the work. But Jesus atonement doesn't actually save anyone. The Bible say's the Gospel (Preaching of) is the power of salvation to everyone who believes. Now everyone who believes is really the topic at hand. Are the people who believe, believing of their own volition or because God regenerated them to believe? How can regeneration precede faith if faith does not come until hearing the word of Christ. Can you be honest in your theology and answer that?
19:10 you are wrong and teaching a false doctrine. Jesus died for ALL. it is in numerous scriptures which you are well aware. you dishonestly change the definition of ALL and WORLD because your calvinism is more important to you than Biblical truth. Christ's sacrifice was for ALL.
I agree, what they do is they focus on a few verses that support their theology, but only if you interpret them a particular way, and then they either just ignore all the other verses in the bible that debunk their theology, or they just change the definition of certain words to mean something else in order for it to fit their theology.
@@benjy288 well said. sad
If Calvinism is not true do you think it's dishonest to promote it? If you are promoting lies are you really saved?
God doesn't create categories of people for destruction.
Jer 18
Man is responsible for his fate.
What Bible you reading buddy?
This layton flowery fella seems to be the epitome of what 2 timothy 4:3-4 speaks of.
John 10:10 NIV
10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
John 10:10 KJV
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
"May" , "might" , "might"
Not;
"Will, shall, shall".
...
Yout right about alot jeff, this ain't it.
I will refrence every verse you have listened.
Sofar Calvinism is not justified by john 10
Notwithstanding the whole topic of "Is Calvinism True," I never like the whole "I love your wife, but not like I love my wife" analogy. I mean, at the end of your wife's life, I don't express my WRATH on her, even though I have a certain sort of love for her. Yes, she comes in a very distant second, compared to my wife, but if YOUR wife were about to be hit by a car, I would hope I'd run into the road and push her out of the way, not reveal and express my wrath towards her!...so I've heard this analogy, but find it a flawed one.