I'd carry a fan for those occasions because idk if I'd be able to stop myself from laughing (at least I can laugh without making sounds so that could work)
I never assume that anyone remembers me. I do have a close family member who assumes that everyone remembers them, even if they've only briefly met once.
I remember reading a similar book. It said if you do some trivial niceity for a lady you don't know, such as pick up her dropped umbrella or handkerchief then that does *not* count as an introduction so don't start up conversation. If the lady initiates a conversation then by all means engage, but be aware that the umbrella may have been dropped on purpose for this reason and that the lady may be someone "to whom Hamlet would have said 'get thee to a nunnery' "
and even today: Imagine dropping your umbrella and the stranger picking it up just starts talking to you at length. I'd be immensely uncomfortable. On the other hand, I don't know if dropping your umbrella on purpose would work so well today. Chances are you'd have to pick it up yourself.
The overwhelming majority of the time, women don't want to engage with a guy who's only trying to manipulate (via social norms/etiquette) his way into her life, because its always end goal:bedding her. Makes you acutely aware of how many manipulative strategies men will employ to get what they want (not all men do this, but the ones that do, are fucking terrifying, esp if you're an introvert). Don't 'help' someone (open a door etc) under the pretense of getting to talk to a pretty woman. It just makes women feel like sexual objects, commodities, to be manipulated & coerced, not human beings deserving of respect & empathy.
@@_Mentat ‘excuse me. How dare you suggest ladies go over stiles. They would have to lift their legs up exposing everything under their dress’ (probably)
So as a working class woman I can cross my legs, lounge, lol, and loll. Hooray! I might even sit on the side of a chair later today, if I’m feeling spicy.
I'm literally Victorian (like from the state in Australia) and in my youth I indeed thought that when people said "Victorian X" they meant me specifically 😞
The thing to remember with etiquette manuals is that they're prescriptive literature not descriptive. In other words, they say what people SHOULD be doing not not what they ARE doing. The thing to remember with prescriptive literature is that it generally means that people are doing the opposite. You don't tell people to do something that they're already doing.
Such literature would also not exist if the guidelines documented therein were not socially accepted, meaning that some portion of its target audience are complying with the rules. Just like a manual of style, which documents what educated speakers consider proper English and apply in their own writing, conversation and speaking.
@@surengrigorian7888 yet the vast majority of people don't speak "proper" English (or any other language) most of the time. Despite the best efforts of English teachers and grammar books.
@@rebeccaorman1823 The vast majority of people may not speak "proper English", but that was never the point anyway. The vast majority of people in the Victorian era were working class and would not have observed these rules either. But amongst educated people, those rules are observed. Just as these rules would have been observed amongst members of the upper class.
@@surengrigorian7888 Actually, the rules are generally observed, or are supposed to be observed, by the middle class. They don't apply to the working class and the upper classes are above the rules. However, never confuse seeming to obey the rules and actually obeying the rules.
@@surengrigorian7888 what you need to understand is that an etiquette book is telling people what they SHOULD be doing and not a description of what they ARE dong. The mere fact that the etiquette book exists strongly implies that people weren't behaving this way or the book wouldn't have been written. An etiquette book is an attempt by the upper class to tell the middle class how they're supposed to behave. Does the middle class actually follow the rules. That depends on whether they want to be accepted by the upper classes or not. The vast majority of middle class people went on behaving in whatever the middle class norms where and couldn't care the less. You have to understand that what's written in an etiquette book are not "the rules of the society" in which these people lived. There a set of rules that the upper class is attempting to impose on them.
I'm now imagining a Victorian Gentleman constantly changing his seated position in the most obvious way, even sitting upside down. While the Victorian Lady sitting in the same room rolls her eyes at these shenanigans.
I have Putnam's Book of Etiquette from 1906 New York, and it's fascinating. And I know how to eat an orange with a knife and fork at a dinner party. I assume the author is a woman becausr some chapters are devoted to upper-class working women with their own homes, like teachers, writers, etc. That fascinates me most, really.
Teaching being an upper-class position is interesting. At one time it was valuable, and now they’re treated so poorly. It’s only preparing the next generation for life, how important could it be?
@@hp8685"At a dinner, an orange must not be peeled round and round, then stripped of its white inner skin, and separated into slices for consumption. The correct way is to spear it firmly on the fruit-fork, cut away the inner and outer skin in deep strokes of the knife; then, still holding the whole yellow fruit on the fork, lop mouthfuls off from the heart, and finally convey these, freed of seeds, to the mouth on the fork's prongs."
I remember reading a reprint of a Victorian Etiquette manual that openly praised women who were still single for being wise and patiently waiting until she finds someone she genuinely loves. Surprised me given the stereotypes of the time period, and made me feel better about myself.
It's still tradition here. Although the jewellery is a gift from the couple these days. There's also a tradition of giving a gift to the best man. The mothers of the bride and groom are given bouquets of flowers
There is no vice versa, the women did not gift the grooms best man as a matter of etiquette, and it would be a measure scandalous as well. Guys were historically locked out of the recieving role throughout all of history, instead in the providing role, unless we happened to be among the 1% of royalty or extreme wealth privilege edit: in lower classes, which the 90% were throughout history. If he were ever gifted something, it was a replacement tool of his trade, or a replacement this or that. Only recently have meaningful gifts made an uptick from the early 1700's when it was at an all time high in western culture.
Part of me wants to believe the profusion of all these supposed social rules actually indicate Victorians found the awkward, quirky and imperfect as endearing as we do (especially given their penchant for whimsy). You know, "rules are made to be broken" and such. But I know that would be me projecting modern thinking and motivations on to people who lived under very different values and expectations.
@@cjboyo being unable to follow the rules might have meant that found it hard to find a husband or that your family married you as soon as possible do people don't realize how unruly you are. No one can see you adhding in your house
I've wondered about this a lot. Is it the way girls are socialized or does it legitimately present differently in our brains? I am a women who slowly came to realize and accept that I had ADHD in my 20's (but did not seek diagnosis until my 30's). My mother suggested it after attending a medical conference where one of the lectures was on ADHD and learning disabilities. She came back and suggested my dad and I both get tested. I dismissed it at first because I associated it with hyperactive boys but after coming across more info about ADHD in girls, one of the biggest things that first stuck out to me was that we tend to be daydreamers. The reason this hit so hard was that my parents had saved my report cards from elementary school and there was one from my 4 yr old kindergarten class where the teacher noted "sometimes drifts off to outer space and we just have to join her." (Meaning she would be unable to get my attention.) To have evidence of this from that young, suggests to me that it's truly the way ADHD presents in my brain rather than social conditioning. Then again, maybe I underestimate how early those expectations start. 🤷🏼♀️
In my experience, it isn't as much about how it presents itself in the brain; but rather being told to mask what were considered the typical symptoms in men.
I'm probably not ADHD but I was the only girl in my class who had a little mat to sit on when we were in year 1 (so we all sat on the carpeted floor during reading time) so I stopped moving around.
Growing up I was told that gentlemen should walk to the ladies right on the street, placing themselves between the traffic and the woman. This is in the UK, elsewhere it would be on the ladies left.
It really depends on if you are walking towards traffic or away from it. On a good sidewalk, you can walk either direction safely. But, yes, I've heard that the man should walk on the street side, and the woman farther away.
@@Brasswatchman At the time, one of the reasons mentioned was, to shield the lady from mud and water splashed up by passing motor cars, or horse drawn carriages.
yes, the idea is that men walk closer to the street than women do. one is to shield them; but another is that pimps, those pimps, would walk with their women to the street as a way of advertising what was for sale. So, men stay closer to the street to indicate that the women in their presence are not on display.
@@redjoker365 My favorite fun fact about that is that the dragon Smaug with his mountain of gold wouldn't be in the top ten wealthiest Americans. If you're greedier than a dragon you have a problem.
"but a lady must sit still" I'd love to hear a subjective description of the behavior of a Victorian lady suspected to have what we call today ADHD! Growing up I was segregated from other students because of my inability to sit still. I think it would be funny to hear someone getting offended personally by it!
Also, if anyone knows whether this is a moralization of passivity or just to reduce the risk of a hoop skirt going FOOMP and opening in a horizontal direction, I'd love to hear it.
@@StellaMariaGiuliathat was my first thought too. I've currently hurt my back, and there's no way I could sit still, it's too painful to not change positions!
I'm probably not ADHD but I was the only girl in my class who had a little mat to sit on when we were in year 1 (so we all sat on the carpeted floor during reading time) so I stopped moving around.
I was given a locket and a necklace for being a bridesmaid twice. Yes, they would take a lady's arm in the city to protect her. ... And yes, I recall being told off a million times for not sitting still as a child (I had a rather Victorian "Little Adult" lack of a childhood at home).
I thought the bridesmaid one was still a tradition, at least until quite recently. Although it might be a pair of earrings or a necklace to wear on the day and keep as a momento.
@@konstantin.v That's an inconsiderate comment. Most people are not 'upper class', but even if they are, it's weird to imagine that money would preclude a person from having a totally horrific childhood, or that relative poverty means a child cannot be happy. Surely you can't imagine that life is so black and white.
@@nataliebutler , we have too many rich people crying a river about how hard it is to be rich. We don't need more. I don't have to support this fad, neither do you. Unless you are one, too 😊
No, etiquette manuals were hugely popular for middle class men and women and they followed them mostly to prove they weren’t working class by acting upper class. Upper class people didn’t buy them because they would have been taught etiquette from childhood.
Not the middle classes and up, just the middle classes, the upper class knew how to behave, the manuals were written for the socially upwardly mobile who had not be brought up in the rules.
I love these old guides! I’ve always read/been told that you’re supposed to have the lady walk on the side away from the dirt and danger of the street. Things like getting splashed with mud from a passing car. I wonder if that’s what’s behind having her on your left and only in town/cities or near busy roads.
That's part of it, but you're also supposed to keep her on the left side to keep your right hand free. Which is a tradition that goes back to when wearing a sword was commonplace. So I suppose that would mean that they were restricted to the left side of the road.
Actually that may be why it's restricted to the towns. In the countryside you might not have a footpath. I was taught as a boy that when this happens you walk on the right hand side of the road ie facing traffic. If you kept the lady on your left she would now be out in the middle of the road. Which would not be good manners to force upon her.
It was the flying poop buckets. They would place women next to the streets as you walked because modern plumbing wasn't a thing, and people dumped waste out the window. You don't want the lovely lady covered.
It's interesting to see how people's habits change over time. There are things we see as normal nowadays that our grandchildren will think was odd or insane.
Two things: One, it didn't say you had to sit UNcomfortably, just that you shouldn't fidget around. You could still lounge and in fact many women did, it's just that a lady constantly moving her body about was most likely considered unattractive. Two, erm...you do know that being a 'commoner' in that era would have most likely involved being penniless, endlessly exploited by ruthless industrials and either being worked to death at a mine or factory or being able to tough it out with life-changing injuries and damage caused by overworking...right? I think having to sit still like a normal person on soft cushions is at least a liiiiiiiiiittle bit better than this, but you do you darling.
Expecting the man to pay for even more things is just sooo cute! Just like making him get on his knees to propose, buying an expensive ring, paying for the wedding... Huh, I guess there are quite a few things that never went away? Funny how that is.
@@_Lumiere_ Getting on your knee is a respect thing, it's not a money thing. Actually the tradition is for the brides parents to pay for the wedding, now though it's kinda a whomever has money to pay for it thing. And oh, you'll love this... Rings and weddings can be as cheap as you want them too! There's options! I was making a positive comment based on a gift that recognizes that the brides friends sometimes put in as much work as she does to plan the event, nobody said you had to buy extravagant gifts for them, literally could be a some nice stationary or something simple. If you ever have a marriage ceremony where every decision is based on extravagant money wasting then I truly feel sorry for you. Don't create negativity where there isn't any.
@@vijo424 I'm saying that there are many "traditional" things that men still have to adhere to that are quite one-sided. What's the female equivalent of a man getting on his knees to propose? Where is the mutual respect? And the bride's parents paying for the wedding isn't a universal tradition. Men are still judged by how much they are able to pay when it comes for both the wedding and the wedding ring. Sure, you can make it as cheap as you want, but there is a large portion of women who view that as insufficient. And, societally, few people are going to view such women and wholeheartedly agree that they are unreasonable. Many, if not most, will view the man as a "bum" or at the very least think that he could do it better. It's not "taboo" for women to expect a lavish and expensive wedding and ring like it is for men to expect a woman to adhere to some old tradition. Dont you see how one-sided that is? I understand that it is difficult to see it from the other side when you are not the target of these expectations and, in fact, get to benefit from them. But by asking yet another thing of men when it comes to marriage, especially making him pay for more things, you are the one that is creating further negativity. It's not as "cute" as you think it is. It's already skewed so very hard to one side, why not think of something that the woman can do? All of the old traditional expectations of women have been done away with and that is perhaps a good thing. But how would you feel if they were still in place, while men got to do away with their traditional expectations and now wanted to add yet another one for you?
@@_Lumiere_This is why people should marry someone who comes from a similar socio-economic background and who shares your values. If a woman is mad that her future husband can't afford the cost of her dream wedding and ring, it is a redflag. This is a hint of things to come in the marriage. First it is the wedding, then it is her dream house, next it is a divorce. Find a woman who understands budgeting and that the money spent during wedding could have been spent for something else like your kids college fund or a vacation. Avoid delusional people.
They might have been thanked in the credits. "I would like to extend my grandest felicitations to Locket&Ring co., the sponsors of this year's manual."
I remember a photo of an old book page that circulated as a meme. On top of the page you can see title "spells, charms and incantations" and a person pointing at a sentence: "You may fascinate a woman by giving her a peace of cheese"😂😂😂
Some of it sounds sweet, like "do not assume she remembers you", like yeah don't assume you're on her mind. but still, I think talking to people should just be... normal.
That one I can kinda see has a point. Like if you've met someone once before don't immediately assume you're friends and I almost feel like could be good from the perspective of trying not to be a bother on a woman who probably has better friends at the party. But... honestly yes, you can start a conversation with her
Horrors! You must wait to be introduced by a mutual acquaintance before speaking to someone as an equal. You can bark orders to a lower class person anytime of course.
It all depended on introductions. If you had not been introduced, you could not converse. If you asked a woman to dance at a public ball (special rules for dancing at a private parties) and you hadn’t been introduced, she would have to politely decline and say she would be happy to dance once proper introductions had been made. And you had to ask someone if you could introduce someone to them. (“May I introduce…” is a real questions.) There are all sorts of rules about introductions and you wouldn’t introduce just anybody to your friends because the behavior of the introduced reflected upon you.
@@squidundertheinfluence I get the impression that in Victorian times people who hadn't been introduced would literally ignore each other. There was also institutional introduction, such as coming out or being introduced to the House of Commons. And self-introduction _in extremis:_ Doctor Livingstone, I presume.
It's good to remember that these manuals were often reflections of the authors' biases, prejudices and (often strict, skewed and silly) moral beliefs. They weren't writing them because they thought most people were abiding by them, after all.
I have a very large antique etiquette book here i picked up . Havent read it yet because my great grandmother made me take etiquette class. Its called Amy Vanderbilt 's Nee Complete Book of Etiquette. I wonder the gems i will find in there!
I absolutely adore this content! And it totally reminds me of the lessons I received from my “proper” Southern grandmother. (Even though her sister was a trollop.) ❤😂❤
can we please make the “don’t assume they remember you” a societal standard, for everyone? i think i speak for a lot of us when i say how painful and awkward it is for a perfect stranger to call your name as if they know you, and only afterward they say “i sat next to you in 3rd grade” or something.
Doesn't the arm you offer depend on which side of you the road is? Aren't gentlemen supposed to walk between the road and the lady, to prevent her from being splashed by traffic going through puddles? I'd have thought this rule would take preference!
@@sharktrap267 If the road, in the direction you are walking is to your left, and you offer your left arm - then the lady is between you and the road. I don't think crossing the road (assuming there is a pavement on the other side) or even walking in the opposite direction are good solutions!
@@adamc7691 I don't feel like it's up to me to decide if it's a good solution or not. I see the rules, and I do with. I must always offer my left arm, and the lady must not suffer the water projections from the road. The lady will have to do with me walking backward. There are no other options.
😂…I’m sorry but I can’t stop seeing images of David Williams dressed in drag as “Emily Howard” from “Little Britain!” Always emphasising and prefacing with sayng “First things first, I’M A LADY! I enjoy doing ladies things!” 😂
Because of this idea that a man put the church made the arrangements got the various documents ready. My grandmother became a second wife unbeknownst to her until the man in question died and the other wife came to collect his war pension. This was during World war II. My grandmother had just had her first child to professor Brown and the priest knew what was happening and said nothing but my grandmother then had the highest level of security clearance. It was possible to get because of his work and hers. She then went on to become a quote Roaming telephonist end quote and had very strong opinions about how poorly Alan turing was treated.
ABSURD AS THIS MAY BE, I STILL HAVE TO WISH I WAS BACK IN THAT ERA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MODERN LIFE IS PURE FILTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I love how these old guides go wildly from side to side, on one hand there are some real good general advice or ideas that actually work like the locket thing genuinely sounds rather lovely, on the other hand the sitting thing is laughably out of date and kind of sexist xD
the first one is actually good advice! If you came across as a creep last time, it makes it easy for her to avoid you. If she likes you, she has the option to talk again. 100% would recommend modern day men follow that one. The others not so much
Thank goodness we don’t typically leave all the responsibility of taking care of the church, priest, and marriage license to the men anymore or they may forget something
Imagine being an upper class Victorian woman with a touch of the tism lol if I had to keep still constantly and not wiggle or fidget around I would just die
This is similar to “Safe Counsel” - I have my great-grandfathers’s copy. It’s ridiculous. One wonders what folks will say about our silliness in 120 years.
Victorian men doing handstands on the chaise lounge while women have to sit still watching the insanity
I'd carry a fan for those occasions because idk if I'd be able to stop myself from laughing (at least I can laugh without making sounds so that could work)
Handstands on the chaise lounge is a fucking image 😂
Crab walking all over the furniture
This genuinely made me laugh I can only imagine the absurdity of such a scene
LMFAO 😂
“Do not assume she remembers you” mood
I never assume that anyone remembers me.
I do have a close family member who assumes that everyone remembers them, even if they've only briefly met once.
I have problem with remembering faces and names, poor gentlemen, they'll never hear from me again xD
I remember reading a similar book. It said if you do some trivial niceity for a lady you don't know, such as pick up her dropped umbrella or handkerchief then that does *not* count as an introduction so don't start up conversation. If the lady initiates a conversation then by all means engage, but be aware that the umbrella may have been dropped on purpose for this reason and that the lady may be someone "to whom Hamlet would have said 'get thee to a nunnery' "
and even today: Imagine dropping your umbrella and the stranger picking it up just starts talking to you at length. I'd be immensely uncomfortable. On the other hand, I don't know if dropping your umbrella on purpose would work so well today. Chances are you'd have to pick it up yourself.
Hamlet was redpill before it was cool 😂
The overwhelming majority of the time, women don't want to engage with a guy who's only trying to manipulate (via social norms/etiquette) his way into her life, because its always end goal:bedding her. Makes you acutely aware of how many manipulative strategies men will employ to get what they want (not all men do this, but the ones that do, are fucking terrifying, esp if you're an introvert). Don't 'help' someone (open a door etc) under the pretense of getting to talk to a pretty woman. It just makes women feel like sexual objects, commodities, to be manipulated & coerced, not human beings deserving of respect & empathy.
@@degreeskelvin3025 It was never cool.
huh. been living by this rule without even knowing it. neat!
Ah yes of course. No holding hands in the countryside
No, holding onto the man’s elbow. It’s allowable but on the right side to shield the lady from the splashes.
At least as far as I remember.
@@LURKTecI think that was the idea in towns. But I don't know why not in the countryside.
What if a man is helping a lady over a stile?
Don't let a pig see you doing that. They'll squeal on you!
@@_Mentat ‘excuse me. How dare you suggest ladies go over stiles. They would have to lift their legs up exposing everything under their dress’ (probably)
So as a working class woman I can cross my legs, lounge, lol, and loll. Hooray! I might even sit on the side of a chair later today, if I’m feeling spicy.
You dirty girl, you.
LMAO UNDERRATED
@@mspaint93 oh nooo, I’d _never_ want a stern nun to spank the wickedness out of me, what a _terrible_ fate you’re threatening me with! 😮
Ah.... quite the rebellious spirit, aren't we?
@@robertnett9793 so rebellious that RUclips didn’t allow the reply comment I made about nunneries 😂
Were there conflicting Etiquette manuals? Perhaps, "oh, he subscribes to Brothermyre's Etiquette manual...." *Victorian gasp*
I'm going to assume that "Brothermyre'" is pronounced "Brimley". That seems properly Victorian British.
@@dr.krimson1010 Finially. Someone understands.
@@dr.krimson1010Presumably they also published diabetic cookbooks.
I'm literally Victorian (like from the state in Australia) and in my youth I indeed thought that when people said "Victorian X" they meant me specifically 😞
Lmfao there is going to be in any fiction I work on if nothing else
The thing to remember with etiquette manuals is that they're prescriptive literature not descriptive. In other words, they say what people SHOULD be doing not not what they ARE doing. The thing to remember with prescriptive literature is that it generally means that people are doing the opposite. You don't tell people to do something that they're already doing.
Such literature would also not exist if the guidelines documented therein were not socially accepted, meaning that some portion of its target audience are complying with the rules. Just like a manual of style, which documents what educated speakers consider proper English and apply in their own writing, conversation and speaking.
@@surengrigorian7888 yet the vast majority of people don't speak "proper" English (or any other language) most of the time. Despite the best efforts of English teachers and grammar books.
@@rebeccaorman1823 The vast majority of people may not speak "proper English", but that was never the point anyway. The vast majority of people in the Victorian era were working class and would not have observed these rules either. But amongst educated people, those rules are observed. Just as these rules would have been observed amongst members of the upper class.
@@surengrigorian7888 Actually, the rules are generally observed, or are supposed to be observed, by the middle class. They don't apply to the working class and the upper classes are above the rules. However, never confuse seeming to obey the rules and actually obeying the rules.
@@surengrigorian7888 what you need to understand is that an etiquette book is telling people what they SHOULD be doing and not a description of what they ARE dong. The mere fact that the etiquette book exists strongly implies that people weren't behaving this way or the book wouldn't have been written.
An etiquette book is an attempt by the upper class to tell the middle class how they're supposed to behave. Does the middle class actually follow the rules. That depends on whether they want to be accepted by the upper classes or not. The vast majority of middle class people went on behaving in whatever the middle class norms where and couldn't care the less. You have to understand that what's written in an etiquette book are not "the rules of the society" in which these people lived. There a set of rules that the upper class is attempting to impose on them.
I'm now imagining a Victorian Gentleman constantly changing his seated position in the most obvious way, even sitting upside down. While the Victorian Lady sitting in the same room rolls her eyes at these shenanigans.
Can’t roll your eyes, that’s extremely inappropriate behavior
"Gasp! How shocking! How scandalous!"
Stapling myself to the wall without saying a word because I've only met you once
Yes my thoughts exactly
“A woman must sit still” RIP to all the ADHD victorian women
ADHD is a joke
LMAO my first thought
I was looking for a comment like this!
Why do you think they call them crazy?
@@ibrahimihsan2090crazy? I was crazy once...🐀
I just envisioned Victorian gentleman in the parlour rolling and flopping around à la Malfoy in A Very Potter Musical.
BAHAHAHAHAHA-
Lucius must have read that book to him as a child. Too bad he didn't pick up on all the manners sections.
No she said middle class and up remember! Manners are for purebloods and the sacred 28 only.@@annalisasteinnes
Omg god yes, especially when rolling onto the dance floor for hermionie
ROFMALO hi gang! Yeah that exact person came to mind :'D
I have Putnam's Book of Etiquette from 1906 New York, and it's fascinating. And I know how to eat an orange with a knife and fork at a dinner party. I assume the author is a woman becausr some chapters are devoted to upper-class working women with their own homes, like teachers, writers, etc. That fascinates me most, really.
well how do you eat an orange with a knife & fork at a dinner party??
Teaching being an upper-class position is interesting. At one time it was valuable, and now they’re treated so poorly.
It’s only preparing the next generation for life, how important could it be?
@@hp8685"At a dinner, an orange must not be peeled round and round, then stripped of its white inner skin, and separated into slices for consumption. The correct way is to spear it firmly on the fruit-fork, cut away the inner and outer skin in deep strokes of the knife; then, still holding the whole yellow fruit on the fork, lop mouthfuls off from the heart, and finally convey these, freed of seeds, to the mouth on the fork's prongs."
That sounds like a funny thing to do for a (dinner) party.
@@hp8685 Carefully. HAHA. There's a whole technique to peeling and sectioning.
I remember reading a reprint of a Victorian Etiquette manual that openly praised women who were still single for being wise and patiently waiting until she finds someone she genuinely loves.
Surprised me given the stereotypes of the time period, and made me feel better about myself.
A gift for all the bridesmaids from the groom and vice versa seems kinda cool actually
the vice versa gift is that the Groom shan't see the women in the dress until the marriage ceremony (saving him from shopping).
It's still tradition here. Although the jewellery is a gift from the couple these days. There's also a tradition of giving a gift to the best man. The mothers of the bride and groom are given bouquets of flowers
Ngl I thought ppl still did this
There is no vice versa, the women did not gift the grooms best man as a matter of etiquette, and it would be a measure scandalous as well. Guys were historically locked out of the recieving role throughout all of history, instead in the providing role, unless we happened to be among the 1% of royalty or extreme wealth privilege edit: in lower classes, which the 90% were throughout history. If he were ever gifted something, it was a replacement tool of his trade, or a replacement this or that. Only recently have meaningful gifts made an uptick from the early 1700's when it was at an all time high in western culture.
Oh my God. Next time some dude I barely know comes to talk to me, I'm gonna hit him with "DO NOT ASSUME THAT I REMEMBER YOU." 💀
That would require dudes approaching you darling.
I never would have survived being raised a victorian woman. I am too adhd 😅
Seriously though - I would have ‘fallen’ so hard mahaha
Same!!😂
Part of me wants to believe the profusion of all these supposed social
rules actually indicate Victorians found the awkward, quirky and
imperfect as endearing as we do (especially given their penchant for
whimsy). You know, "rules are made to be broken" and such. But I know that would be me projecting modern thinking and motivations on to people who lived under very different values and expectations.
@@rosswhite-chinnery5725 You’re making a big assumption that people find me endearing now. It’s about 50/50
@@cjboyo being unable to follow the rules might have meant that found it hard to find a husband or that your family married you as soon as possible do people don't realize how unruly you are. No one can see you adhding in your house
"...but a woman must sit still." And they wonder why ADHD takes longer to diagnose in the ladies.
I've wondered about this a lot. Is it the way girls are socialized or does it legitimately present differently in our brains? I am a women who slowly came to realize and accept that I had ADHD in my 20's (but did not seek diagnosis until my 30's). My mother suggested it after attending a medical conference where one of the lectures was on ADHD and learning disabilities. She came back and suggested my dad and I both get tested. I dismissed it at first because I associated it with hyperactive boys but after coming across more info about ADHD in girls, one of the biggest things that first stuck out to me was that we tend to be daydreamers. The reason this hit so hard was that my parents had saved my report cards from elementary school and there was one from my 4 yr old kindergarten class where the teacher noted "sometimes drifts off to outer space and we just have to join her." (Meaning she would be unable to get my attention.) To have evidence of this from that young, suggests to me that it's truly the way ADHD presents in my brain rather than social conditioning. Then again, maybe I underestimate how early those expectations start. 🤷🏼♀️
In my experience, it isn't as much about how it presents itself in the brain; but rather being told to mask what were considered the typical symptoms in men.
I'm probably not ADHD but I was the only girl in my class who had a little mat to sit on when we were in year 1 (so we all sat on the carpeted floor during reading time) so I stopped moving around.
Most women were working class so no
@@NoRockinMansLand some people weren't told to "sit like a lady" their whole lives and it shows.
Holding hands at the countryside: *NOT ALLOWABLE*
Growing up I was told that gentlemen should walk to the ladies right on the street, placing themselves between the traffic and the woman. This is in the UK, elsewhere it would be on the ladies left.
It really depends on if you are walking towards traffic or away from it. On a good sidewalk, you can walk either direction safely. But, yes, I've heard that the man should walk on the street side, and the woman farther away.
To shield them against potential snipers, right.
@@Brasswatchman At the time, one of the reasons mentioned was, to shield the lady from mud and water splashed up by passing motor cars, or horse drawn carriages.
@@promiscuous675 You think of it your way, I'll think of it mine. 😁
yes, the idea is that men walk closer to the street than women do. one is to shield them; but another is that pimps, those pimps, would walk with their women to the street as a way of advertising what was for sale. So, men stay closer to the street to indicate that the women in their presence are not on display.
We’re getting back into that Victorian wealth-gap as well
😂😅
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if we're rather past it by now!
We're past the French Revolution size of wealth gap in some places.
@@SAOS451316 We're even past the wealth gap of ancient Egypt in the US
@@redjoker365 My favorite fun fact about that is that the dragon Smaug with his mountain of gold wouldn't be in the top ten wealthiest Americans. If you're greedier than a dragon you have a problem.
"your responsibility to book the church" oh bollocks I knew I was forgetting something!
"but a lady must sit still"
I'd love to hear a subjective description of the behavior of a Victorian lady suspected to have what we call today ADHD!
Growing up I was segregated from other students because of my inability to sit still. I think it would be funny to hear someone getting offended personally by it!
Also, if anyone knows whether this is a moralization of passivity or just to reduce the risk of a hoop skirt going FOOMP and opening in a horizontal direction, I'd love to hear it.
she so clearly said woman
Same but with chronic pain, I can't stay too long in the same position! 🤪
@@StellaMariaGiuliathat was my first thought too. I've currently hurt my back, and there's no way I could sit still, it's too painful to not change positions!
I'm probably not ADHD but I was the only girl in my class who had a little mat to sit on when we were in year 1 (so we all sat on the carpeted floor during reading time) so I stopped moving around.
We am working class so I shall clasp my knees accordingly.
I’m actually fond of a few of the less sexist ideas 😂 like thanking the brides maids
Yeah, the "less sexist" ideas are the ones that are sexist towards men, so those are more appealing, huh?
I was given a locket and a necklace for being a bridesmaid twice.
Yes, they would take a lady's arm in the city to protect her.
... And yes, I recall being told off a million times for not sitting still as a child (I had a rather Victorian "Little Adult" lack of a childhood at home).
I thought the bridesmaid one was still a tradition, at least until quite recently. Although it might be a pair of earrings or a necklace to wear on the day and keep as a momento.
Oh, poor poor _upper class_ people lacking childhood 😊
@@konstantin.v That's an inconsiderate comment. Most people are not 'upper class', but even if they are, it's weird to imagine that money would preclude a person from having a totally horrific childhood, or that relative poverty means a child cannot be happy. Surely you can't imagine that life is so black and white.
@@nataliebutler , we have too many rich people crying a river about how hard it is to be rich. We don't need more. I don't have to support this fad, neither do you. Unless you are one, too 😊
@@konstantin.v Doesn't mean you should make assumptions about people's lives and leave rude comments. Adding a smiliey face doesn't make it less rude.
Now I'm imaging a Victorian man sitting like a feral goblin and his wife in the other chair, calm as can be while drinking tea
Reminder that bridesmaids used to dress similarly to the bride to trick evil spirits into thinking one of the decoys was the bride.
"Three little empresses, which of them is true?
A single cup of almond tea and now there's only two..."
I absolutely love etiquette books and I have no clue why lol
The existence of this book was strong evidence a lot of people WEREN'T doing this - otherwise no one would have felt the need to write the book!
No, etiquette manuals were hugely popular for middle class men and women and they followed them mostly to prove they weren’t working class by acting upper class. Upper class people didn’t buy them because they would have been taught etiquette from childhood.
No, it’s like a rule book for a sport. They don’t only write rule books when people *don’t do* something. That would be silly.
Not the middle classes and up, just the middle classes, the upper class knew how to behave, the manuals were written for the socially upwardly mobile who had not be brought up in the rules.
I love these old guides! I’ve always read/been told that you’re supposed to have the lady walk on the side away from the dirt and danger of the street. Things like getting splashed with mud from a passing car. I wonder if that’s what’s behind having her on your left and only in town/cities or near busy roads.
That's part of it, but you're also supposed to keep her on the left side to keep your right hand free. Which is a tradition that goes back to when wearing a sword was commonplace.
So I suppose that would mean that they were restricted to the left side of the road.
Actually that may be why it's restricted to the towns. In the countryside you might not have a footpath. I was taught as a boy that when this happens you walk on the right hand side of the road ie facing traffic. If you kept the lady on your left she would now be out in the middle of the road. Which would not be good manners to force upon her.
It was the flying poop buckets. They would place women next to the streets as you walked because modern plumbing wasn't a thing, and people dumped waste out the window. You don't want the lovely lady covered.
It's interesting to see how people's habits change over time. There are things we see as normal nowadays that our grandchildren will think was odd or insane.
I know it's not exactly great nowadays, but it would be absolutely horrible to have ADHD in that era.
Right?
Thank God I’m not middle class, or above 🤣
Those poor, poor victorian women that had ADHD, sitting... still?! For how long? OH NO?! 😭
I kind of like the locket or ring idea for bridesmaids. Seems kind of sweet.
"but a woman must sit still" fuck it, I'd rather be a peasant if comfort is disallowed the upper classes
No, you wouldn't. Victorian era is Industrial Revolution. You'd be worked to death.
Two things:
One, it didn't say you had to sit UNcomfortably, just that you shouldn't fidget around. You could still lounge and in fact many women did, it's just that a lady constantly moving her body about was most likely considered unattractive.
Two, erm...you do know that being a 'commoner' in that era would have most likely involved being penniless, endlessly exploited by ruthless industrials and either being worked to death at a mine or factory or being able to tough it out with life-changing injuries and damage caused by overworking...right? I think having to sit still like a normal person on soft cushions is at least a liiiiiiiiiittle bit better than this, but you do you darling.
Okay but buying matching lockets/rings is such a nice idea. Expensive, but lovely.
The lockets/bridesmaids thingy was alive & well up until the 90s at least...
Jewellery as a gift for bridesmaids is still a tradition. Although often the gift is given before the wedding for bridesmaids to wear with their gowns
only time I was a bridesmaid I was given a locket during the speeches@@Ater_Draco
I think the husband biying the bridesmaids thank you gifts is a really cute idea, we should bring that back 🎉
It's still a tradition, although the jewellery is a gift from the couple these days.
Expecting the man to pay for even more things is just sooo cute! Just like making him get on his knees to propose, buying an expensive ring, paying for the wedding... Huh, I guess there are quite a few things that never went away? Funny how that is.
@@_Lumiere_ Getting on your knee is a respect thing, it's not a money thing. Actually the tradition is for the brides parents to pay for the wedding, now though it's kinda a whomever has money to pay for it thing. And oh, you'll love this... Rings and weddings can be as cheap as you want them too! There's options! I was making a positive comment based on a gift that recognizes that the brides friends sometimes put in as much work as she does to plan the event, nobody said you had to buy extravagant gifts for them, literally could be a some nice stationary or something simple. If you ever have a marriage ceremony where every decision is based on extravagant money wasting then I truly feel sorry for you. Don't create negativity where there isn't any.
@@vijo424 I'm saying that there are many "traditional" things that men still have to adhere to that are quite one-sided. What's the female equivalent of a man getting on his knees to propose? Where is the mutual respect? And the bride's parents paying for the wedding isn't a universal tradition. Men are still judged by how much they are able to pay when it comes for both the wedding and the wedding ring. Sure, you can make it as cheap as you want, but there is a large portion of women who view that as insufficient. And, societally, few people are going to view such women and wholeheartedly agree that they are unreasonable. Many, if not most, will view the man as a "bum" or at the very least think that he could do it better. It's not "taboo" for women to expect a lavish and expensive wedding and ring like it is for men to expect a woman to adhere to some old tradition. Dont you see how one-sided that is?
I understand that it is difficult to see it from the other side when you are not the target of these expectations and, in fact, get to benefit from them. But by asking yet another thing of men when it comes to marriage, especially making him pay for more things, you are the one that is creating further negativity. It's not as "cute" as you think it is. It's already skewed so very hard to one side, why not think of something that the woman can do? All of the old traditional expectations of women have been done away with and that is perhaps a good thing. But how would you feel if they were still in place, while men got to do away with their traditional expectations and now wanted to add yet another one for you?
@@_Lumiere_This is why people should marry someone who comes from a similar socio-economic background and who shares your values. If a woman is mad that her future husband can't afford the cost of her dream wedding and ring, it is a redflag. This is a hint of things to come in the marriage. First it is the wedding, then it is her dream house, next it is a divorce. Find a woman who understands budgeting and that the money spent during wedding could have been spent for something else like your kids college fund or a vacation. Avoid delusional people.
My cousin and I were both given gold lockets by our uncle to thank us for being bridesmaids. Middle class English in the 60s.
I'm a simple man: I see a Lady making right proper historical RUclips videos, I smash the Like button, post haste
Wondering if this book was written by the locket and ring industry
They might have been thanked in the credits.
"I would like to extend my grandest felicitations to Locket&Ring co., the sponsors of this year's manual."
Does it have a section on proper brothel behavior?
Again feeling relieved to be living now and not then, since sitting still is not my strong suit!
"The woman must sit still" My ADHD could NEVER
I remember a photo of an old book page that circulated as a meme. On top of the page you can see title "spells, charms and incantations" and a person pointing at a sentence: "You may fascinate a woman by giving her a peace of cheese"😂😂😂
No clasping hands around the knee, I wonder why.
Also I believe I'm owed some rings or lockets 😂
And THIS is why you are no longer invited to weddings. :D
Some of it sounds sweet, like "do not assume she remembers you", like yeah don't assume you're on her mind. but still, I think talking to people should just be... normal.
That one I can kinda see has a point. Like if you've met someone once before don't immediately assume you're friends and I almost feel like could be good from the perspective of trying not to be a bother on a woman who probably has better friends at the party. But... honestly yes, you can start a conversation with her
I rather like the restrictions it placed on men so they weren’t being fresh. The lady did NOT receive DickPics for sure!
Horrors! You must wait to be introduced by a mutual acquaintance before speaking to someone as an equal.
You can bark orders to a lower class person anytime of course.
It all depended on introductions. If you had not been introduced, you could not converse. If you asked a woman to dance at a public ball (special rules for dancing at a private parties) and you hadn’t been introduced, she would have to politely decline and say she would be happy to dance once proper introductions had been made. And you had to ask someone if you could introduce someone to them. (“May I introduce…” is a real questions.) There are all sorts of rules about introductions and you wouldn’t introduce just anybody to your friends because the behavior of the introduced reflected upon you.
@@squidundertheinfluence I get the impression that in Victorian times people who hadn't been introduced would literally ignore each other.
There was also institutional introduction, such as coming out or being introduced to the House of Commons.
And self-introduction _in extremis:_ Doctor Livingstone, I presume.
Sounds like words to live by always.
It's good to remember that these manuals were often reflections of the authors' biases, prejudices and (often strict, skewed and silly) moral beliefs. They weren't writing them because they thought most people were abiding by them, after all.
Some of these make a lot of sense to me
Instructions unclear, I may have purchased matching lockets for my priest and the town clerk.
You read "men may change position" I hear "bisexual kings only"
based victorians???
Of course she is sitting still, she was nailed there
I actually love the idea of matching lockets or rings for bridesmaids’ gifts
It’s funny, I was instructed by my parents on the one about the marriage license when I got married.
Crazy how she was smiling with all the work a guy had to do, but the smile left her face at the ONE thing she mentioned women have to do
God, you have a great voice!!! Brainy, gorgeous. This 71 year old guy digs you. Keep it up.
John
Honolulu
😇
the first one held up so incredibly well we should all do this
This is good to know for when I have a Victorian lesbian girlfriend
I have a very large antique etiquette book here i picked up . Havent read it yet because my great grandmother made me take etiquette class. Its called Amy Vanderbilt 's Nee Complete Book of Etiquette. I wonder the gems i will find in there!
I absolutely adore this content! And it totally reminds me of the lessons I received from my “proper” Southern grandmother. (Even though her sister was a trollop.) ❤😂❤
Seriously the rule about the woman talking to the man after the first time they meet would help a whole lot.
"It's times like these I am proud to be an American", Sam the Eagle, Great Muppet Caper
Okay but the bridesmaid thing is actually super cute and I might do that
can we please make the “don’t assume they remember you” a societal standard, for everyone? i think i speak for a lot of us when i say how painful and awkward it is for a perfect stranger to call your name as if they know you, and only afterward they say “i sat next to you in 3rd grade” or something.
Soon to be 21st century middle class etiquette in the UK (if certain forces prevail)....
Doesn't the arm you offer depend on which side of you the road is? Aren't gentlemen supposed to walk between the road and the lady, to prevent her from being splashed by traffic going through puddles? I'd have thought this rule would take preference!
These two are not contradictory. Always the same arm, but always between the road and madame.
You need your right arm ready to _draw the sword_ 😊
No, it depends on how you hold your side arm. Since most people are right handed, the right is the position of protection.
@@sharktrap267 If the road, in the direction you are walking is to your left, and you offer your left arm - then the lady is between you and the road.
I don't think crossing the road (assuming there is a pavement on the other side) or even walking in the opposite direction are good solutions!
@@adamc7691 I don't feel like it's up to me to decide if it's a good solution or not. I see the rules, and I do with.
I must always offer my left arm, and the lady must not suffer the water projections from the road.
The lady will have to do with me walking backward. There are no other options.
Ahahahahahah her face at the end speaks for itself
Me, sitting at the edge of my seat with my hands on my knees like “dang it”
I wish we enforced more of these social rules (not all!)
I do all of those except the lounging rule. Everybody get comfortable. Hell, get in repose or exposed. Whatever rogers your hammerstein, everyone.
Christ, the shit we humans dream up to make ourselves miserable
It's not any different now, we've simply replaced the old nonsense with new
😂…I’m sorry but I can’t stop seeing images of David Williams dressed in drag as “Emily Howard” from “Little Britain!” Always emphasising and prefacing with sayng “First things first, I’M A LADY! I enjoy doing ladies things!” 😂
I'll keep to myself, solves all those problems
infinitely grateful I don’t live in a time and place that would force me to sit still in any kind of reasonable position
Because of this idea that a man put the church made the arrangements got the various documents ready. My grandmother became a second wife unbeknownst to her until the man in question died and the other wife came to collect his war pension. This was during World war II. My grandmother had just had her first child to professor Brown and the priest knew what was happening and said nothing but my grandmother then had the highest level of security clearance. It was possible to get because of his work and hers. She then went on to become a quote Roaming telephonist end quote and had very strong opinions about how poorly Alan turing was treated.
"Manners of Modern Society" in fancy antique lettering haha
One second you’re walking along the thoroughfare, next second you’re getting married.
It is so funny how in the Victorian era, working class and middle class were two different social ladder but are now thw same
I feel we should bring the lockets or rings back, nothing much else except maybe the etiquette for talking during parties, these are good ideas.
It's still very common to buy a piece of jewellery as a gift for bridesmaids.
The custom of buying rings for the bridesmaids has survived in Hindu and Sikh wedding traditions in India.
That's good because I get fidgety and I don't other people moving around too much.
As a living example of the bisexuals/gays can't sit straight stereotype I'd die 😂
Men's etiquette manual. Has rules for how women may sit. Yeah, that sounds about right.
ABSURD AS THIS MAY BE, I STILL HAVE TO WISH I WAS BACK IN THAT ERA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MODERN LIFE IS PURE FILTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Honestly, giving gifts to the bridesmaids sounds like a nice tradition. Maybe it shouldn’t be solely up to the groom, but it sounds fun and memorable.
It still happens. These days the gift of jewellery is from the couple, rather than just the groom
It's still a tradition to buy a gift of jewellery for bridesmaids. Usually a necklace, bracelet or earrings
I saw one the other day that said “You can fascinate a lady by simply offering her a piece of cheese”
Can we bring back the "don't assume they remember you" please?
Ah yes, the typical modern misandry. Gotta love it. I'm kinda glad we arent forced to be chivalrous anymore.
Can we also bring back the "not assuming every man is a creep/rapist/jerk" thing please?
I love how these old guides go wildly from side to side, on one hand there are some real good general advice or ideas that actually work like the locket thing genuinely sounds rather lovely, on the other hand the sitting thing is laughably out of date and kind of sexist xD
If you ever find yourself in Liverpool, come to Peter Kavanagh's pub.
the first one is actually good advice! If you came across as a creep last time, it makes it easy for her to avoid you. If she likes you, she has the option to talk again. 100% would recommend modern day men follow that one. The others not so much
Some interesting facts, thank you
Thank goodness we don’t typically leave all the responsibility of taking care of the church, priest, and marriage license to the men anymore or they may forget something
Ohh i love your tapestry!
A book on men’s etiquette around ladies has more ladies’ etiquette in it. I’m really not surprised.
Imagine being an upper class Victorian woman with a touch of the tism lol if I had to keep still constantly and not wiggle or fidget around I would just die
This is similar to “Safe Counsel” - I have my great-grandfathers’s copy. It’s ridiculous. One wonders what folks will say about our silliness in 120 years.
That first rule, I wish more men abided by that rule now.....
From the perspective of preferring to be left alone at a party or the bit about "assuming she remembers you"?