Did London Have Segregation?: The London History Show
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- Опубликовано: 2 апр 2024
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Sources- 20th-century discrimination:
A Welcome To Britain. • A Welcome to Britain, ...
Bauml Duberman, M. 1989. Paul Robeson.
Bourne, S. 2020. Under Fire: Black Britain in Wartime, 1939-1945. pp. 53-55
Bourne, S. Black ‘front liners’ and fire service personnel during the London Blitz. www.london-fire.gov.uk/museum...
Catney et al., 2023. Ethnic diversification and neighbourhood mixing: A rapid response analysis of the 2021 Census of England and Wales. The Geographical Journal, Volume 189, Issue 1, March 2023, pp. 63-77 doi.org/10.1111/geoj.12507
IWM. "They treated us royally"? The Experiences of Black Americans in Britain During the Second World War. www.iwm.org.uk/history/they-t...
IWM. A Guide to Britain for Americans, 1943 | Archive Film Favourites • A Guide to Britain for...
Pearson, H. 2017. Connie: The Marvellous Life of Learie Constantine. pp. 295-298
Seton, M. 1958. Paul Robeson.
Sparrow, J. 2017. No Way But This: In Search of Paul Robeson.
The Guardian, 22nd January 1959. Colour bar on landladies' cards. www.theguardian.com/world/201...
Ziegler, P. 1998. London At War, 1939-1945. pp. 217-219
Sources, The Royal Household:
Elston, L. 2023. Buckingham Palace misses ethnic minority staff diversity target again. www.independent.co.uk/life-st...
Hall, P. 2000. Palace Guard. www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/a...
Hall, P. 2021. Buckingham Palace’s lack of ethnic minorities has long been obvious - even to devotees. www.theguardian.com/commentis...
Pegg, D. & Evans, R. 2021. Buckingham Palace banned ethnic minorities from office roles, papers reveal. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...
Lots of interest in the "A Welcome To Britain" film in the comments, so I'll also add: we don't know the name of the guy playing the black GI! If you have any leads, the Imperial War Museum would love to know:
www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060022007
@@ThomasMuirAudionaut Two can play at that silly game.
The British Army.
Battle of Britain.
British Bulldog.
British Rail.
British Airways.
British Gas.
British Museum.
British Library.
British Council.
British Heart Foundation.
VisitBritain.
The Royal British Legion.
British Vogue.
The British Academy.
The British Red Cross.
British Cycling.
British Antarctic Survey.
British Medical Association.
British and Irish Lions.
The list goes on and on and on and on....
Because the Clydebank Blitz was part of the Blitz, which was not part of the Battle of Britain. It's an important distinction, because the start of the Blitz is what ended the Battle of Britain. Let me explain:
In May 1940 was the Battle of France, in which, in contrast to the Phoney War which had preceded it, and in contrast to the stalemate of the First World War, Germany made quick progress and forced a French surrender. The only silver lining for the Allies - essentially the Commonwealth at that point - was that the retreat at Dunkirk had been successful. That, and that there was the Channel and the Royal Navy to keep the islands safe.
It's relatively easy to destroy ships from the air, so that was the German plan. First of all, though, they had to destroy the RAF's ability to fight back, so they targeted airfields with bombs. Even with the support of Polish and Czechoslovak pilots, this defence proved a difficult task for the Allies, whose pilots were short on sleep.
During the Battle of Britain, a German plane accidentally hit London during a night raid. This provoked a British response of bombing Berlin - where the war had had little direct impact so far, and where blackout was not properly observed. In retaliation, Hitler switched from targeting airfields to targeting cities - hoping that in the same way that the firebombing of Rotterdam had encouraged a Dutch surrender, the bombing of Britain would make the British do the same, letting him focus on the USSR (not an official enemy yet, but Nazis hated communists). This relieved pressure on the RAF. This was the start of the Blitz.
Thus, the start of the Blitz is what ended the Battle of Britain in September 1940.
In that film the black soldier held the rank of corporal, a subtle reminder to much of the US's segregated military that not only are black soldiers going to be treated as your equals here but some may be treated as your betters when rank is taken into account.
I hope someday we find out who that soldier was!
Just a little point on the numbers of ethnic minorities in the royal household, I have a friend who works for the royal family in one of their other palaces, part of their issue for low diversity comes from the fact that effectively all employeesof the household and palaces have to be security screened which broadly rules out most students, and many other groups and is a whole complicated mess of a problem in terms of who can be vetted and cant be which takes out a massive chunk of prospective applicants..
@@ThomasMuirAudionaut The Blitz wasn't the Battle of Britain. In fact, the Blitz is what ended it.
In the Battle of Britain, Germany targeted airfields to take out the RAF, which was required to defend the Royal Navy from air raids, in advance of a possible invasion. One German plane accidentally hit London, the RAF responded by targeting Berlin, and in September 1940, in retaliation, Germany started targeting cities (hoping to force a surrender that way, as had been done in Rotterdam) instead of airfields. This was the start of the Blitz, and it took pressure off the RAF and ended the Battle of Britain.
That PSA for American soldiers is WILD. “You see that? you SEE that??” He’s even doing the dodgy look around to see if anyone can hear him while he’s taking to camera, as if he’s about to make a racist joke. But instead he delivers the unhinged message, “racism here is less cool guys!!”
Was that Burgess Meredith?
@@Elesarioyep
I swear I've seen exact simpson/futurama skits with that vibe
Even the penguin knows that racism is wrong.
Highly recommend watching the whole PSA, it's so interesting. There's like a 15 minute segment about pub etiquette.
8:22 fun fact, the white soldier is Burgess Meredith aka Mickey Goldmill from the Rocky movies and The Penguin from the 60s Batman with Adam West
Ha Ha, You forget he was a Jew (on his Mother's side),
and a Communist too!
I knew he looked familiar! ❤ Batman as a kid! Also explains my immediate 'don't trust you' reaction. Yes, I am that old!
I thought it was him. Recognised the voice.
He was also in the more recent "Grumpy Old Men" films.
You all forgot Ammon in Clash of the Titans :D .
Outstanding. The northern USA did not have jim crow laws, but laws about education spending, real estate practices (red-lining), hiring practices, and access fo government programs had a similar effect
Yeah, in the north we didn't have legal discrimination, but rather defacto discrimination. There were a lot of sundown towns up here
I remember a few years back an older black lady told our group that in Georgia, where she was born, you at least knew where you were and were not allowed. In New York City, where she moved when she was grown, it was different. There was a restaurant she and her family went to, where they had to wait at least 2 hours to be seated, meanwhile white people who came in after were seated before them. No Jim Crow, but definitely discrimination
Yep. The Northern US is still impacted by the legacy of redlining and defacto segregation. The divide between many neighborhoods across Northern US cities is still visible in almost every major US city.
Don't forget the USA (North and South) sent a segregated army to fight in WWll. So, yes, it was complicated.
You are absolutely correct to point out these appalling practices in the north. Sadly, it was still better than in the south and for this reason people voted with their feet and moved north to escape Jim Crow where they could not vote in any other way.
Around 1966/67, my mum was looking at flats in Forest Gate. One place she went to look at, on hearing our surname had already gone. 30 seconds later on seeing a blond blue-eyed baby (me) it was mysteriously available again. We didn't take the flat.
I don't understand why was the surname an issue?
The Nobel Laureate, Professor Wole Soyinka wrote a poem about this; "Telephone Conversation".
@Tonks143 Mische is a European name and probably Jewish. So double prejudiced as not English.
@@Tonks143 "Clearly, people with foreign-sounding surnames _must_ be dirty foreigners and we _don't_ want any of those, oh wait you're _Aryan?_ Why didn't you _say_ so?! Come _in!"_ /s
I know someone whose surname changed on marriage from unmistakably English to something hard to distinguish as being European or otherwise. They reported that they get "funny looks" from people hearing their surname since the change. Whether this is racism or merely because the surname is unusual is hard to determine, nonetheless, there's some mild discrimination going on.
There’s a similar issue in the US, they did a study on John vs. Juan in job hiring and there is discrimination in the application process
1.) This video is incredibly fascinating.
2.) I don't know if you should call a hospital or tailor, because you are KILLING that black dress.
maybe call a lawyer 🤷🏻♂️
I hope you meant killing “it” in that dress. Just “killing” the dress implies it’s being stretched to the limit, not that it looks good.
@@dangalfthedruidI adore pettifogging over linguistic minutiae and that made my day😂😂
I agree, that look is amazing
@@mrkiplingreallywasanexceed8311
Be rational, here.
This is a RUclips comment on the internet, "this could be nagging" is far from an unhinged thought when faced with linguistical ambiguity.
I really appreciate this video. I had recently noticed an alarming amount of comments trying to romanticize England as never having issues with equality under some of your other short vids (not your fault, you always stuck to the facts). It's good to remind people that history, especially about racial/ethnic relations, is complex, intersectional (interconnecting with class, gender, orientation, etc.) and involve more than just black and white populations.
Not sure it’s romanticised, as opposed to the British culture tendency to ignore things, that particular brand of British passive aggressiveness, never overt but always simmering, just enough prejudice to make it known to the recipient but once in a while it boils over and everyone acts shocked lol , I don’t know how to describe it… you know what I mean, there’s something very distinctly British about it.
@@Lanesgummy33 You just described it, so you do know how. Don't doubt yourself.
@@samgordon9756 🤣🤣🤣 thanks
@@Lanesgummy33 I don't know, that sounds rather close to the American state of mind, too.
@@KaiHenningsenIt’s similar but u feel that when Brits go out of their way to deny racism they’ll bring up “evidence” that might vaguely makes sense and could be believed if you only looked at it for two seconds, Americans tend to go the “well if you don’t like it go somewhere else” route
Speaking as a person who is both Black and ethnically Jewish I knew right away it was gonna start with "the Jews" and I immediately exclaimed "I fucking knew it!" then bursted with laughter at "I am once again asking people to be normal about the Jews." Because people can never be normal about us lol.
May I inquire why a significant portion of your Jewish community appears to overlook the Israeli actions resulting in the deaths of Palestinian civilians? Does it trouble you that such actions is fueling more antisemitism that preventing it?
@icysaracen3054 May I ask why so many Muslims ignore the murdering and raping of 1200 innocent women and children which started this new war in Gaza?
Zionism is not Judaism, hope that helps.
As someone of mixed Jewish and non-Jewish heritage who's seen entirely too many people fail to be normal about it: I laughed so hard I scared the cat. (Don't worry about her; she got an apology treat and went back to her nap satisfied.)
@@icysaracen3054nice big dose of antisemitism you've got there.
I remember seeing a similar WWII video in History. It was two American soldiers, one black, one white, sharing a cigarette, and a voice over going 'yeah this is weird, but it's normal in Britain so get used to it!' (paraphrased, but still)
really glad to hear someone having an honest conversation about this in a way that is specific to the UK. It is absolutely true that plenty of black Americans visited the UK during the Jim Crow era or before the Civil War and made very favourable comparisons. But it is also absurd to suggest that the UK lacked racism because we didn't have an explicit legal framework like the US. Racism here is *different* from the US in a way that doesn't always easily facilitate a direct comparison. I'd love to hear more discussions like this that focus on the historical realities rather than just importing US discourse unexamined.
I have an American friend who was surprised to notice how many MPs are non-white in the UK, especially when compared with the US legislatures and when you take into account the relative racial makeups of each country. When he asked me about I basically made the point about class that you state at the end. There are also additional dynamics here that don't exist in the US, e.g. the differences between the experiences of black Brits of Caribbean origin (who tended to come to the UK as low-paid labourers) and those of West African origin (who often came to the UK as educated professionals). The history of race in this country is not straightforward and I don't feel like we've even really begun to examine it as a nation.
It isn't as simple as that.
It also depended on when your grandparents, parents or other ancestors came over.
My dad arrived in 1960, and the families from both the Carribbean and West Africa we mixed with who came over around the same time had educated professionals as parents, even though they often weren't able to work in those professions so did more working class jobs.
Later on in the 1970s less qualified and educated people came over. While lots of educated professionals either went back themselves or sent their children back to West Africa or the Carribbean.
The problem I think is that racism is a huge and manifold topic, but we've never bothered breaking it down into multiple words. When a European, especially a Brit, looks at the US and sees its deep-seated, integral racism, they go "oh we don't have that", and because that's largely true, that thought tends to get reinterpreted as "we don't have racism", because that's how they end up defining "racism" - anything weaker than that might be bad, but its not "racism", because racism is that thing the US has. I think we'd be much better at recognising the shortcomings of the UK if we had another word for it, in the same way that pointing at US gun crime doesn't prevent us from worrying about UK knife crime.
Thank you for typing this, it's helped me think deeper about racism in our country. As a white man I've always struggled with discussions around racism and discrimination, not because I agree with them, to me it's pointless and dehumanises individuals. But my issue is one of guilt, I feel partially responsible for these things or that I've benefited from them.
What's happened in the past is not my fault, nor is the society I grew up in my responsibility, BUT, understanding how events and national discourse have shaped our society and how people (Jewish, Black, Asian, anyone from Ipswich) have been treated is of importance so that we can avoid those massive mistakes of the past and so that we can build a better Britain, one that I could actually be proud of.
But I fear that day will never come, antisemitism up, sinophobia up, talk of sending refugees or migrants to another continent a great expense (the Rowanda plan), it's disheartening to say the least.
I'm of a low mood right now and with that I think, I believe that we humans don't deserve to make it to Mars. What's the point if we're taking racism, discrimination, unfair rights and billionaires with us. Let's sort ourselves out before we leave Earth's front door.
Thank you for reading this comment, enjoy tg rest of your day.
Basically, as much as anything can be basic, Britain has always had Black people, but never in a big enough quantity that they needed race rules as well as class rules until after the Second World War, and even then it seems to have been more that race was an easy marker for anti-immigration sentiment. The real delineator is class, and no one is lower on the class scale than the person who's too new to have been sorted yet.
If you're human there is some racial prejudice in you.
Here in Canada there's a lot of history of Black people coming from the US (including many formerly enslaved people who wished for the "formerly" to remain accurate) and thinking that it was wonderful and less discriminatory at first, and then realising later that the discrimination was just less overt. One of the reasons that one of the early Black settlements near me completely disappeared is that after the American civil war, a lot of the settlers decided they would just go back south, because it wasn't enough better here to stay.
Yes and... I honestly don't know how wide spread the full story of Africville is, and that may well be one you are thinking of, something more people should really know about. Also the media group CanadalLand did an amazing deep dive into hockey last year (I think) and really talked about how black Canadians are is some ways the backbone of the larger hockey culture, even though they were pushed out, the parallels to rock music were shocking. It's a great podcast series under their "Commons" feed it's the focus fo the first three eps in that series.
@@KarltheKrazyone They story isn't that widespread, I hadn't actually realised that Africville had also had the "ok, now that it's relatively safe, we're going home, things are bad enough here". There was a settlement here in South-Western Ontario in "The Queen's Bush" which is only just now getting some notice. Because the Black settlers were all unofficial, it was that much easier to ignore them and so there are lots of people who grew up in the area who learned that the first settlers in the area were Scottish.
My family had the same issue. My dad was born in 1956 in Orlando, FL (and I'm only 21, so my dad is an old dad) and when he was 6 in 1962 his family moved to Rochester, NY for a brief stint. It was his first time in a non-segregated town and school.
After a year theyoved back to Florida. Ask my grandma she'd tell you it was the cold that initially did it, and the fact that the white folks didn't want them there just as they didn't back home. So might as well go home. Where it was warm at least.
The Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 might have played a role there. It legally compelled the return of fleeing slaves, even by those who knew how immoral slavery was. Of course, it wouldn't apply in what became Canada.
In the west coast of Scotland we had a kind of quasi segregation for decades between catholics and protestants. Even when i was in high school in the early 2000s the spectre still lingered. When my parents got married in the 1970s they had to have a joint wedding service because one was Catholic and the other protestant.
Ahhhh, an old fashioned "Mixed Marriage".
I'm live here in Philly, and in the 1970;s a Catholic landlord
would NOT rent to my Aunt Cass, and Uncle George because
he was a "Demonic Lutheran", as she called him. lol!
@@bennyboogenheimer4553 I'm glad things are much better now. We're mostly non religious here, so no one really cares, except for some boomers.
Ah yes, we had that kind of in Bavaria as well. My grandmother nearly had a heart attack when my uncle told her his fiancé was protestant. She always made my aunt feel that's she didn't approve of their marriage.
This grandmother also once hilariously had a rant about my first serious relationship saying:"he's got nothing, he's a nobody and an Italian, but at least he's catholic!" 😂
Joint weddings were actually a way of showing acceptance of both traditions.
I visited Glasgow with a friend in the early 2000's. He wanted to visit every Scottish football ground. We did a tour of Celtic and then were on our way to Ibrox and got a bit lost. Asked an older (70's) lady for basic directions and she said, "I've never been to the west part of Glasgow, AND I NEVER WILL" then spat on the ground cursing Protestants. We visited Ibrox, then went to find a local pub... Only to have an entire parade's worth of Orangemen come waltzing in with full regalia. I was trying to tell my friend to be very quiet about being Jewish, and the guy hitting on me said, "Oh, we don't mind Jews! We just hate the bloody Catholics!" He couldn't understand that I was embarrassed as hell by my grandfather being a member of the order. Anyway... It was one of the more surreal days of my life.
This is the reason we need real history taught in the schools. Every country has their embarrassments and injustices, and just like any other mistake, you cannot learn if you do not recognize it, and it is not just racism. East India Company, Caste system, Political prisoners, Censorship, Imperialism, where do you begin? Kids need to understand that people in power will generally serve themselves and their 'kind' unless there are checks and balances to keep them in line with the public benefit. "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" - George Orwell. Excellent video! It is sad we have to learn our history on RUclips, but at least it is available.
I distinctly remember my son being taught about the Jews being expelled from England, including the reason why (so the king and his cronies didn't have to repay their debts).
dont forget african slavery of africans, which dwarfed european slavery. or african slavery of europeans etc. or cannibalism in africa etc
It is sad. Growing up before the Internet, I got more proper history from PBS and reading on my own than I did in school. I also encouraged my children to learn more outside of the school system. Especially now that there's such a push here in the states to cut so much history from curriculum because it makes my fellow white folks "feel bad about themselves". To paraphrase the gun nuts, "our history doesn't end where your feelings begin".
@@ftftyffghfvghfcht6701 Slavery is a notable omission on my part, not just blacks but throughout almost every culture in history. My apologies.
@@ftftyffghfvghfcht6701I wouldn’t say it dwarfed European slavery. The west African slave trade was the largest slave trade by far, expanding slavery extremely. But you are right, it is important to know that it was an extension of a trade already practiced. That is what most people are taught in UK schools right away
My mum came here from Grenada in 1959. She told me of an experience that happened to her not long after she arrived. she wanted to buy a coat but was not allowed to try it on or return if it did not fit. She had to ask her white co-worker to return for her! My parents have many more stories of subtle and not so stuble discrimination and segregation. I think in the UK it's obtuse and insidious.
That's crazy. My grandparents came to uk in 1948. They stayed in Kent. However whenever they visited London, all the pubs, hotels and shops, said " no blacks, no Irish and no dogs" only the Jews, Asians and Italians would sell or rent to blacks.
@ebonynaomi1085 Did they have a better experience in Kent? That was one of the tame stories and to think think that they were invited to the 'motherland' to work and to be treated like that!
There's an interview on RUclips titled "MLK Talks New Phase' Of Civil Rights Struggle, 11 Months Before His Assassination" on NBC News. It's genuinely an interview I think everyone would benefit from watching but in particular MLK is speaking directly about the difference between the overt segregation of the South vs the North.
Things were better and less violent but that didn't make the situation perfect. If anything he argues because it is more nuanced it's a more entrenched and complex fight than what the Civil Rights movement had already achieved. It's harder to see, there's economic barriers not physical ones, it's cultural rather than legal. If you make it a law or a policy then it's a concrete thing that can be addressed. It's a lot harder to explain "here's some statistics that point to an underlying inequality that leads to worse outcomes".
Thank you.
This is what many folks don't understand about racism including antisemitism in the UK.
This is what a rather large percentage of people in the US still don’t (or just don’t want to) understand.
I live in Tennessee on the border with Georgia. It's not uncommon to see confederation flags on homes, cars, shirts, etc. Still ,we are a lot more like the North that MLK talks about than the South he talks about. I meet racists all the time at my job, and they work really hard to not be outwardly racist. I think their discretion plus other people who have "less" discretion makes the racial tension more sub textual. Their refusal to acknowledge that subtext makes any conversation around the other racial barriers so hard. It's kinda like how the subtle ways that sexual harassers violate people seems to give them a million different excuses/explanations/character witnesses. Sometimes the way they carry out the abuse has built in plausible deniability and becomes torturous for the victim.
That white soldier invited for a cup of tea was Burgess Meredith, who played The Penguin in the 1960s Batman TV series, and Rocky Balboa’s coach.
Burgess Meredith was a great actor with a distinguished career in theater, film and TV. He opposed racism which was one reason he was blacklisted as a Communist 'fellow traveler' during the McCarthy era. During WW2, he enlisted in the Air Force, but in 1943 he was transferred to the US War Office to make films for the war effort.
I knew that his face looked familiar.
Once again, an absolutely outstanding video that should be shown in schools. J. Draper is proving herself to be a master storyteller. Thank you for sharing your talents and information with the world.
Utter rubbish - she misses out (once again) the African pillaging of Europe and Britain.
We had a similar thing with soldiers in Australia with the Americans coming over during the war and then they got all the good rations and forbidden stuff and were hitting on the Australian women and were causing trouble. They didn’t like that ANZAC wasn’t segregated and the Americans got super mad when there were African Americans at a dance hall with white women and that Aboriginal Australians got the same pay and treated like mates when serving from what I’ve read. A fight broke out called the Battle of Brisbane between the Americans and the Australians and they had to try and suppress it to not sow discourse
My Uncle was there. He said they were told Azzie's were paid the same as American GI's, but you walk into a Bar or restaurant, and there's some pretty
farm girl talking you up, to get a drink or a free meal, BECAUSE a US solders made 5 times what Australian, and NZ troops made.
Uncle Harry (a sailor)said, "I'm 17, halfway around the World, unloading ships
of dead, and dying men from the front, and this Fresh Faced little Blond or Red Head, or Brunet drops onto the chair next to me! It was like Mana from Heaven.
Then the blacks show up, and were allowed off their chains. Telling the white girls they were "Special Forces" that took a pill to be a black night fighter!
Braver then any 10 White American, British, or Aussie solders.
And the girls ate it up!
Aboriginal soldiers were payed the same as whites (www.awm.gov.au/about/our-work/projects/indigenous-service) but they (and Chinese Australians) were still heavily discriminated against.
Plus, to state the obvious, for the duration of both world wars, Aboriginal Australians were constitutionally categorized amongst flora and fauna (due to 'Terra Nullius') and their children (the "half-castes", at least) were being kidnapped legally by the government/christian groups and forced to abandon their language and culture (a genocidal tactic).
Also, there was unofficial segregation, especially in NSW, as seen by the 1965 Freedom ride. (aiatsis.gov.au/explore/1965-freedom-ride)
Actually a lot of Indigenous people didn’t get equal pay, some NOT AT ALL, and since during this time Aboriginal people were classified as “flora and fauna” they were not viewed as equals. Even after serving their countries most were forced back into forced labour (essentially slavery).
I think you need to take a very long look at your history. You definitely had segregation in Australia right into the 70s if not later.
I love that you chose the role of Othello as an example of when choosing someone based on their race makes sense.
(For those who don't know: Othello is meant to have a darker skin tone than the other characters in his story, and because of that never feels secure that other people accept him for who he is. The character, in both Shakespeare's play and Verdi's opera, was very often performed by a white actor in literal blackface until well into the 20th century.)
Agreed. The skin color is important to the character and let's just say that black-face would not likely be well received.
I had a conversation about Richard III the other day where I brought up the recent casting controversy with someone who hadn't heard about it. I started by just going over the details about the story without offering any opinions and sure enough "well that's ridiculous there's been plenty of great productions, why shouldn't the best actor for the role be cast?!".
Then I pointed out how few Shakespearean productions ever cast disabled actors. Richard III is one of the few popular plays anywhere with a role that is for a disabled character. If you decide to turn down abled-bodied actors they have plenty of other roles, even within that play, they can audition for. Disabled actors don't have that luxury. Sure in a different more equitable era everyone should have equal opportunities to play all roles but you can't achieve that by pretending we're already there.
The entire point of Othello was that he was a very black man, a Moor, who had come to England and become a famous general and hero, and so had wooed and married a very rich, very white young woman, the daughter of a local dignitary, but without Dad's knowledge or permission. So the newly wed couple were bought before the judges and
@@marieroberts5664 Moors were North African, Arabian and even Indian and not "very" black at all.
@@starlinguk yes but...in this context, he was damned dark to the locals, even tho the judge comforts the FIL, saying, he's more white than black. Also, he's not cast as merely tanned, the black face is often quite dark, deep brown not bronze, and a lot of Indians are very dark skinned, not to mention that when a black man is actually cast for the part, some of the finest thespians happen to be very black -Robeson and James Earl Jones are two examples.
So sure, in reality, Moors are often merely swarthy but not all North Africans are light shades. Moroccans are North African, yet they are quite dark (watch GOT when Danerys frees the city of Meereen, and the slaves come pouring out to greet their liberator...they were all dark, and the whole white savior vibe was pretty uncomfortable, but then you realize that the extras in that scene were all Moroccan locals, and hiring extras from another country wasn't an option).
So I stand by very dark, but you are right, not all Moors are very dark, and most are swarthy or tanned.
A fascinating story. I was born in London in 1952 and so am old enough to remember the signs outside of pubs and rooms to let saying "No coloureds, dogs or Irish"
I was born in the 80s and would still see the occasional No blacks, Irish or DSS when I was younger when I lived in Hackney. My Mauritian grandfather came to the UK in the early 1950s and struggled to find housing because of his race.
YES. WHAT YOU SAY IS 100% TRUE. THERE WERE SO MANY CASES OF DISCRIMINATION, IN THE UK, BACK IN THE 1950'S AND 1960'S, WHEN IT CAME TO PEOPLE OF CERTAIN ETHNICITIES, FINDING ACCOMMODATION, EVEN IN LONDON.
I remember tales of my grandparents being evicted because their landlord discovered they were Irish. My granddad could speak with an English accent and my grandma couldn't. They were evicted, with my granddad being accused of IRA involvement. The fact he was Protestant ex soldier didn't matter. His wife was obviously Irish Catholic so he must be a terrorist. Racism against Irish people did and does continue to happen in this country. When my name is mocked because it's Irish, I am a victim of racism. It is no more acceptable to mock an Irish name than it is to mock a Bangladeshi name, for example.
YES, THAT'S RIGHT. THERE WAS A LOT OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION, AGAINST THE IRISH, BACK IN THOSE DAYS BUT NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE, ARE AWARE OF IT, TODAY BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T BEEN TOLD ABOUT IT.
That bit at the end about class discrimination is very true. My father is almost 80 and grew up as a white working class Londoner and it is very difficult to get him to understand that despite the discrimination and police harassment he faced for being working class that does not mean that racial discrimination can't be worse or that he doesn't benefit from privilege because of his race sometimes. It's something I find hard when talking to a lot of that generation about race because they insist that they're not racially prejudiced but are also very quick to dismiss grievances about racism as being a fuss about nothing or similar, which probably says a lot about the victimhood complex which their experiences gave them.
Unfortunately due to racism (not his) your father is unlikely to meet a black man his age who is working class who can explain about the racism he suffered. Most black people of that age who are alive are actually middle class even if they had to do working class jobs in the UK
@@MsPeabody1231 quite. He did know some black working class people when he was a younger man, but that's not the same as knowing someone with a lifetime of experience, and given he's retired to a very white village in a very white part of the south east the odds of him ever spending any significant time with anyone around his age who's not white are pretty slim :/
George - you're dad will feel frustrated when he's with you because your ignorant to his feelings, you've been indoctrinated to think a certain way and he hasn't, you're not as intelligent as he is, yet you're also trying to push your opinion as superior, please try to learn more empathy for him,
Your dad won't believe in white privilege and that's okay, it's a belief that you hold dear but as you age it's unlikely you'll still cling onto that
Stop the WS lie about class and character.
In the UK, Black British folks are hated by anti-Black racists, based solely on their skin tone and NOT because they are working class or because of their so called character.
Heard of your program on Tasting History with Max Miller. So pleased I came for a visit. Your "shorts" are very concise, educational and fun. These indepth videos are put together wonderfully. The editing, the sourcing, visual design, just all of it is great. Keep on! Cheers from the Ozarks.
I discovered her around a year ago & she’s consistently been one of my favorite RUclipsrs.
Fascinating. People love to use the lack of explicitly racist laws as a 'gotcha' as though that means no one was ever racist in the UK. "The country is just as segregated as the US, only along class lines rather than racial ones." And, of course, class was so intersectional with race and continues to be. Would love more videos like this
And once explicit segregation by race was made illegal in the us they immediately pivoted to redlining and other more "subtle" economic discrimination
That claim "...just as segregated as the US..." is not correct. Britain did not have any laws regarding race. Life was easier for a person of color in Britain than in the US, even though it was far from perfect. If you demand perfection, you will never see any difference between countries.
If you want an example of intersectional solidarity, see the movie "Pride" (2014, dir. Warchus). It's about a group during the Thatcher years, during the miners' strike, GLSM, Gays and Lesbians Support the Miners. And it took a while, but they did support one another. It's based on true events, some of the characters are based on real people of the era (like one of the very first Britons to get AIDS). From the movie, it seems most of the press was demonizing the miners about as much as the queer folk.
@@craigcook9715 thanks for this rec!
I agree. I find the UK very classist.
My apologies if my responses came across as heated. I am very distraught about the issue of disabled people’s segregation as a disabled woman and it is seldom brought up in discussions about segregation despite it still being an issue.
We do not get access to the same rights either. For example, intellectually disabled people are still forcefully sterilised worldwide. There are intellectually disabled people and mentally ill people who do not qualify to vote. You can legally pay disabled people below minimum wage in Australia as little as $2.30 an hour. Disabled people are penalised for getting married in many countries. But it is not spoken about. I hope one day it will be spoken about by people who are not disabled
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WTF!?! That's F🤬cking ridiculous! Paron my French there, but if you're doing the same work. As an able bodied person, then you should get the same pay.
@@itwasagoodideaatthetime7980 Well yea, if your doing the same amount of work you should get the same amount, I was saying that if your disability stops you from doing the same amount of work aka being as productive, it's understandable you don't get the same amount as the person who does more work
@@itwasagoodideaatthetime7980 Also I will not pardon your french.
@@grenadaball7655 I'm sorry, what did you say about voting and disabled people?
This channel is just so underrated. Transparant use of (primary) sources, great video editing, engaging storytelling and of course phenomenal presentation! This channel is a gem on RUclips and I hope many more people will find it
Don't forget a stunning creator. 🥰
Great brief shout out to the Battle of Bamber Bridge. It’s a story so unheard of (until recently) that despite going to high school in that town and despite my dad having a office on the road where it happened; none of us had even heard of it until a few years ago.
This is not my story to share, so I will not reveal their name. Let me just say that it was told to me by a very famous black British actor with whom it was a great honor and privilege to work and leave it to the reader to imagine who it was. He told me that he could not get work as a black actor in the UK. He had to go to the USA and work there until he was an established name. Only then could he return to the UK and get taken seriously as a black actor.
I know exactly who you’re speaking of.🙏🏽😞sad but true!
There's nothing new there.
@@sandycheeks1580 is it Idris Elba?
Not just fascinating content, but extremely well made in terms of the videography and editing. You have style, Ms Draper, you have style.
i just have a feeling this channel is going to be massive - you just have this spark that makes it all so interesting
This was brilliant, thank you for making and for sharing this video with me. I really appreciate it.
🙂🐿🌈❤️
P.s I think Paul Robeson visited Australia the following year (I think) -
Robeson was appalled by the treatment of Australia’s indigenous groups and was quoted as saying something like -
“There's no such thing as a backward human being, there is only a society which says they are backward.”
I thought it was a really great statement (burn).
Thank you for raising this. The UK has a painfully real problem with class, and even saying that it's breaking a taboo. We have a LOT of work to do with this
I grew up in Fulham. I am 75 (yesterday!) so I don’t have direct knowledge of the early days, but my stepmother felt adventurous renting a room to (gasp!) an Irish couple. She was horrified when the house next door was sold to a West Indian family - until she met them. Then they were just great, but regular people.
Happy birthday! 🎂🎁🎊
I am an American married to a Brit. This video spoke to every conversation we’ve had about the similarities and differences of the UK and US. I think we’re like two bits of sourdough looking at each other across a cracked looking glass
Love these long form videos. Great content. Also, on the royalty point, I feel these days we are luckily in an era of more accountability.
Followed you for a while now and have always really enjoyed your choice of topics, delivery and the quality of information. That being said this video feels like a substantial step up in terms of its production, incredibly atmospheric and even another level of engaging above and beyond. Absolutely loved it, thanks so much for all of the hard work I'm sure it has taken
Everything on this channel is fun and insightful and informative. Definitely one of the best RUclips products out there.
Very interesting. I'm learning about segregation in America in the 1950s. I never realised who Jim Crow actually was, I only learned about the laws named after him. Great video!
My understanding is that there was no Jim Crow. You are correct, they just used the name.
Jim Crow was a character in many of the black face minstrel shows of the 19th century.
Also remember it was the south, there was racism everywhere, but that level of it was in the south.
Absolutely essential to hear stories like this. Would love to get more in dept longer format videos from you
I remember reading about how some people went crazy over a Sainsbury's Christmas ad simply because it cast a black family.
😮💨There's always somebody. I know my aunt was having a rant about (i can't remember which book but) a publisher slightly changing it's own books to be 'more inclusive' aka less sexist/racist. The fairly lofty arguement she had was that it was "changing history"🙈Claimed people should write their own books if they think they're so good instead of changing others... ignoring that if they weren't changed they just wouldn't sell/get published at all. But sure.
John Lewia have had simarlar problems.
Thank you for mentioning Constantine. Now I know why he is remembered fondly and respected by the elder black community.
Love the long form stuff 👍 thank you for sharing this
J. Draper This was a really interesting video, I like all of your videos but I much rather like the longer videos instead of the shorter ones however that doesn’t stop me watching your shorter videos. Keep up the fantastic work 👍👍✨✨✨✨✨✨✨✨✨✨💎👌
smashing video again ❤
i think it's really important to teach the intricacies when talking about discrimination in a historic context. it's important because it opens ways to address issues today, which too are often complex and complicated.
and you did an amazing job at that, once again.
Your videos are always outstanding! They’re so well researched and absolutely fascinating
Love your longer form content ❤
This needs to go viral. I've seen British people try to claim that they never had segregation when criticixing other countries
It's a lie. They have segregation and anti-Black racism in the UK
I love your videos so much, they're edited spectacularly and they present information perfectly
Long form video! What a treat thanks j
Always with an interesting and well presented video!
Oh wow--that military footage is so fascinating! Great find, friend.
Fascinating, as always! Thanks for putting out such consistently interesting content!
Bravo, another excellently written and produced video. RUclips suggested the "Welcome to Britain" film to me a few months ago, and the whole thing is interesting. I think it is because I had been looking up clips of archival film on PTSD treatment. That might be an interesting future topic for this channel!
Very interesting - it will be interesting to see if Hm the K seeks to bring the royal household into line with the law as a whole in the near future. The enquiry into links with slavery (has he not read pepys' diary?) suggest he's aware of the looming wider issues around slavery and racism, so it might be a good plan.
On the class segregation issue, I seem to remember from my time at the Museum of London the existence of a number of walls ensuring that "the lower orders" don't mix with "the better sort", especially in west london. Robeson, and many others, were very right about the class barriers which still bedevil us in this country.
Charles is astute enough to read social indicators and have a private, let's look at this, opinion. I think William's the one to take it to the public with their preferred solution.
@@michellebyrom6551 I suspect that the research will show up clear links and will lead to some apologies and maybe financial restitution, probably with youth projects. I think CIII knows what's coming and will do the right thing - he's not daft.
Its complicated, though it started problematically it looks like it is just a continuation of keeping the crown out of laws. Laws become much more complicated when the crown is involved and specialist lawyers are needed, it's easier for the king to just voluntarily adhere to the laws. That's the official reason why we've kept the system of the palace reviewing laws.
It can become a real nightmare as you can't bring a legal case against the crown as the authority to judge/prosecute comes from it and it can't face itself. It's like the king does not pay tax but makes a gift to the treasury equal to the tax owed each year.
Add on the fact people might sue just to make headlines and you end up with parliament preferring to exempt the crown from laws.
The monarch has more to fear from the court of public opinion than a law court.
Great video, the long form content is 💯
Wow, this is next-level historical research! Thanks for putting this fascinating video together!
A brilliant video! Thank you for educating us! ❤️
That was Burgess Meredith in the Army PSA!
We know London had segregation by class. I assume that since most (but by no means all) Afro-Saxons were working-class in practice, there was racial segregation.
Excellent documentary! So informative on an invisible topic. I love your RUclips channel and eagerly wait for each new history lesson.
I love it when we get a longer video from you
When you started (very reasonably) by going back to the Middle Ages to look at discrimination against Jews, I thought that you might also take some time to look at discrimination against Gypsies.
Thanks so much for this, it was quite illuminating. As a member of the last generation born (1963) and raised (in NYC) by people who grew up under more formal segregation systems, it helps explain a lot to people younger than me, who did not.
I also learned just how long-standing dislike of "the Jews" really is, and possibly why Black Anericans and Jewish Americans were considered informally allied, at least when I was growing up.
I most appreciated the connection that disguises class segregation as race segregation, which is the way capitalism (?) has been hoodwinking us all for centuries.
And all that education in less than 20 minutes, in an enjoyable manner! Impressive! Thanks 😀!
I just wanna say I love your videos. And I always learn something new and I like your delivery. It’s very entertaining. You’re so funny. Keep them coming and I will keep watching.
Thank you Jenny Draper for this informative video.
How? How do these videos keep getting better? HOW????
I dont usually watch these types of videos, but you are a great teacher and kept me engaged for the entire video
Wonderful output Ms. Draper, brava!
That is not just some white soldier! That is Burgess Meredith; Mickey from Rocky & The Penguin from Batman.
Thanks
A well put together video, and fascinating! I feel the tone of the video "no... But.... " is symbolic of peoples' experiences in the UK today
Paul Robeson also made it to Australia a few times and was well received. He had a voice that was deep and smooth, and he became the working man's favourite singer.
8:39 Hey, that's a very young Burgess Meredith! Hey went on to play the Penguin in the original live action tv show Batman from the '60's.
My husband and I were new international travelers in the 1980’s. We were surprised when a clerk in a cheese shop went on a rant about people of color. Later I figured he heard our accents and assumed that all Americans were racist, too. Ouch. (I’ve edited this to remove a racist term.)
I love these videos- so insightful and such excellent quality.
Thank you so much for the work you do, this video was fascinating.
Another interesting subtlety is that the British Army has never been segregated. However, as recruiting was historically the responsibility of each individual Regiment, it was very much reliant on the personal policy of the Colonel and the whim of the recruiting party. The hard fact is that most Regiments would only recruit non-Whites when they were desperate for men, e.g., the Napoleonic Wars, the Great War, etc. It is worth noting that the the first Black Guardsman was only accepted in 1986, and then arguably because the Prince of Wales publicly noted the absence of diversity in the Brigade of Guards.
If you visit the royal military academy Sandhurst, you’ll see portraits of African, Indian , Arab officers etc who served in the British forces throughout history. In the British forces u can still swear an oath to a foreign monarch as if swearing an oath to our monarch, as the Gurkhas do. Some British regiments still today swear an oath to the Swedish King.
Excellent video! It's so important we don't forget that this happened, and unfortunately continues to happen in many settings too many groups of people.
This is SO interesting. Thanks lots for this video!
Your videos are unfailingly fascinating, and so well done.
Love your work! I learn so much.
Just fyi to everyone, the Romani population in Europe still face a ton of segregation. And the Tudors (tried to) kicked out all the Roma too. It is 100% racism. It is 100% wrong.
On the "was there a colour bar" issue, it's worth remembering that the first "interracial" kiss in British film wasn't until the 1951 film, "Pool of London", an excellent film featuring a strong cast including Earl Cameron and Bonar Colleano. Well worth watching for it's images of early post-war london and recently available on all4.
have you considered London film club as a side channel?
Have you ever watched Sapphire? It's about a decade older and in many ways a terrible film but it's a fascinating look at how sensationalized the idea of an interracial relationship still was. There's a range of what diversity looked like in that era, from posh student club to working class dive bar. Also even the deeply terrible sections are interesting because of just how how ridiculous they are.
@@cupguinno, but I shall now go and look for it!!!
Interestingly, I looked it up and all examples I could find of the first interracial kiss in American cinema happened even after that.
@@8bitdiediethat doesn't surprise me at all
@@cupguin I haven't but I had a look for it - 1959, so a bit later. I'll see if I can find it on dvd or online to watch. Earl Cameron stars, again I see..
Amazing work, Jo. Thank you.
This is a great video, thank you. Your content is always winning. This one is brilliant.
My God Woman you are a National Treasure. Thank you so much. I'm a Black American woman, and I have lived here for 43 years. I love living here but there are areas where I would worry about living in. For your historical records, I'm a 1981 Freddie Laker expat and proud of it.
The British ended/abolished slavery in the early 1800s and the Royal Navy ships patrolled the Atlantic and other oceans to make sure that other major powers at the time were not practising slavery i.e. their ships were not carrying slaves.
That’s true, however just because someone doesn’t participate in slavery and works to prevent it, doesn’t mean they actually care about or value those who were under slavery, just that they had some form of morality and instead of being normal about it usually leaned into white saviorism
How is that relevant this video? Since the history slavery is obviously something you interested in you should check out J. Draper's video "Answering White People's Questions About Slavery". Assuming you haven't already ofc.
Very interesting. As a Londener and history buff really like your longer form content.
Well researched, thoughtful, and caring - as always from you!
That old Army film, wasn’t that Burgess Meredith? The American actor? Yes.
I am very gratified to see how many people in the comments also recognized Burgess Meredith. I am glad that I am not the only one here old enough to remember that face, or know the name attached to it, since I'm feeling the Generation Gap (more a chasm) a lot lately 😉.
Interesting, I'm probably one of the last people in the western world to attend segregated schools. I never sat in a class with a black person until I was 18 and went to college out of state. I'm only 39.
Where? And what did they teach you about race at school? Or did they just skip over it? Didn’t anyone ask questions? Or everyone just thought it was normal? Did you have black friends outside of school? Why did your parents send you there? Lol I have too many questions 💀
Where was this
@@Lanesgummy33 it's fine. At the time in Arkansas if there was a private school that didn't accept any money whatsoever from the government they could be all white or all black or all-whatever they pleased. In several southern states, Arkansas included, segregation screwed up the school system because you had politicians who didn't want it, politicians who wanted to do it their own way, held up in court decisions. My knowledge is only been like maybe the past 15 years or 20 years they've basically sort of "cleaned up" the educational system. Was it racist, I would say to today's standards it definitely was but it's not like Ku Klux Klannery like someone might imagine. I do remember my elementary school at least being located in a super majority African-American area and they're being tall fences and police sitting outside of our school. I don't ever recall there being much violence, although we constantly heard gunshots and stuff none in the exact vicinity of the school. I recall, and we're talking maybe like 1991 or 1992 here, during the height of the crack epidemic, people riding around with like 5 bicycles. That neighborhood, coincidentally, used to be a lower class all white segregation neighborhood, the federal government integrated it. And in a very short time span it basically went from something like all white to something like all black. Which I would say is probably the thing that is not unique to Arkansas, white people are generally uncomfortable living around Black people I feel like that's across the United States broadly.
My dad is a different case entirely, he grew up going to school and what I might call the "violent segregation" era. The only complication? My dad is Hispanic. Even today Arkansas has very few Hispanics, very few Asians. We are predominantly a white and black area. The school system didn't know whether to send my dad, and his siblings, to the all white schools or all black schools. They were Mexican. Something "in between" in their view. so my grandmother sort of bribed the school commissioner and got them sent to the all white schools, which were better funded, on the condition that they were not allowed to play sports. Odd, but generally racial politics has very little to do with reality.
Great video. Thanks for posting it.
Hooray! It's been so long since I saw a long J. Draper video!
Also there was segregation of the mentally ill and physically disabled through use of asylums where they were isolated and people with intellectual disabilities and congenital conditions. They often spent their entire lives there and were horrifically treated.
But once again people do not refer to disabled issues as segregation despite the fact that disables people are taken away from society, isolated and often abused. I hope one day we can look back and say ‘yes, that was awful what we did’
What happened to those people was truly terrible and yes the same thing was happening in both the US and the UK however, Idon’t think I would call that “ segregation “ yes, I understand they were segregated from society for things beyond their control, however in this context, segregation takes on a different meaning
Why don't YOU make a video about it? Oh.....
@@opalfruitcakedo you think people would watch it? I’ve been thinking about it but I was scared people would make fun of my voice or nobody would watch it. But I really want to teach people about this kind of stuff
@@leesills7800I’m muddled what does segregation mean that’s different in this case? Isn’t segregation when people are deliberately keeping a part of society away or out based on the fact that they’re a minority? I don’t really get what you mean. Thank you if you explain /gen
I think the difference there is asylums were built for practical, logical intentions. They weren't there to just segregate people off from society, but to house those who were deemed unable to integrate with society due to various health conditions. Now, that's not to say the system wasn't abused, and segregated many many people who could have integrated into society with some support. But for some people, such as those with severe intellectual impairments, it's clear that they will not be able to cope with living how most other people do, and while you might not perhaps agree with the idea, having an institution where they can live, socialise and have access to specialised support and care doesn't seem like a bad idea on the face of it. We have "dementia villages" after all for the elderly, a similar concept for those with other impairments is kind of what a modern "asylum" might be.
Is the class system segregation?
I really enjoyed this longer content! Keep it up 😊
Really good video. Love your longer history videos. X
London still has segregation of disabled people but people still do not consider what’s happening with separate housing and schools for disabled people to be segregation even when disabled people say they do not want their children to have the same experiences
Schools as public facilities should of course be accessible. It's not practical or desirable for all housing units to be accessible, but there should be accessible units in every neighborhood.
I still remember when my father came over from Ireland and couldn't enter certain business. They would have signs saying no coloured and no Irish. Now he could get away with it if he was quiet as he was white but much tougher for the Carribbean coworkers.
What happened if he had to speak?
What year was this?
Yes that's true. I've seen some of those infamous old signs that say "No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish". Really horrific stuff man
I really enjoy your videos. You have an incredible amount of knowledge and I'm so thankful that you share that daily with people.
Thanks for an outstanding video.
Wow I had no idea about the segregation of jewish people!
Really? I Learned that in school
It also arguably worked to their advantage. Money lending and banking was seen as a dirty job and anyone doing so would have been judged, so Jews were forced into money lending, and that created a Jewish banking monopoly in the medieval times