The THAUMATURGE PLAYTEST for Pathfinder 2e: Is It Too Strong? (A Rules Lawyer Briefing)
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- Опубликовано: 21 сен 2021
- (Sorry the music gets too loud at times during the demo!)
In today's Briefing, the Rules Lawyer analyzes the Thaumaturge Playtest and does a demonstration combat. Is it too strong? What Implements are you most interested in, and what do you think of the Playtest? Comment below!
CORRECTIONS:
-At 18:05, only a REGULAR failure on the save triggers the additional effect.
-The iconic thaumaturge's name is Mio*s*
-At 36:32, the correct sequence was to apply Weakness 2 next, as the last step of calculating damage. This would have made the incoming damage 11. Then, the skeletal champion would have had the choice of using its Shield Block reaction against it, because the trigger is "would take damage from a physical attack." (This means that Shield Block cannot block damage BEFORE triggering one's weakness!)
-At 42:28, I forgot to apply the skeleton's resistance to piercing damage. (The thaumaturge's ability doesn't negate resistances - only "triggers" weaknesses.)
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0:00 - Opening Statement
1:33 - Overview
3:45 - Knowledge
4:33 - Find Flaws
6:55 - Implement, Implement's Empowerment
7:45 - Gaining & Improving Implements
9:06 - WTF
9:32 - Implement #1: Amulet
11:54 - Implement #2: Chalice
14:50 - Implement #3: Lantern
16:56 - Implement #4: Wand
18:44 - Implement #5: Weapon
21:44 - Class Feats Overview
28:17 - Demonstration!
29:09 - Mios' 1st Turn
34:27 - Mios' 2nd Turn
41:57 - Implement's Interruption
43:03 - Mios' 3rd Turn
47:33 - Mios' 4th Turn
48:51 - Closing Statement
LEARN PATHFINDER 2E! From The Rules Lawyer:
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I assumed this guy had 100k based on his production values. Subscribed
This class is incredibly cool. Easily one of the best designed classes so far (and it's still a playtest). I have massive expectation about the final product.
Question to viewers: I decided to talk through/explain a "full combat" here, instead of focusing solely on the Thaumaturge. Do people prefer this approach? Or would you rather I shorten demos in future Class videos and focus just on the class? Let me know!
(And yes, I know the music is too loud at times during the demo -- this is the last time I record music simultaneously. And it was louder before post-production!)
I like just talking about the class with a shorter video, But also congrats on 500 subs, also when is the ranger video coming out
@@catwizard6482 I've told you, not-Calvin... it'll be part of the Core Rulebook Cycle. Oh and thanks (500 woohoo!)
I like it. Demonstrates how the classes interact and where you want the class-member you're demoing to be relative to the rest of the party.
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG I came back to your channel because I liked the the psychic game play demonstration so much. Many other people do class breakdowns. The gameplay demo makes your channel unique. Also, you can include time stamps for people who want to skip it.
I think the combats are really helpful and fun for new classes like this, and for new players regardless of whether the class is new. That Carrie walkthrough was dope.
this class has such a wide margin of character concepts that it really makes me happy because you could make anything from Perseus, to Saint Martha, to Siegfried, to even a 40k Ork
I think the Thaumaturge gets a lot by being a class coming later in the system. The Recall Knowledge is always based on Charisma since level 1, which is also their key ability (while Monster Hunter Rangers and some archetypes can only do similiar to this around level 10), and creating a weakness is better then having the extra precision damage of Rogues/Rangers/Swashbucklers because it ignores immunities of Precision damage. It's less damage but more reliable and consistent. Also, while the class has great versatility being able to get multiple implements, Talismans and Scrolls every day, their attack proficiency doesn't suffer like the Alchemist does. I think it is power creep as my first impression.
Overall I really like the idea and concept, sounds a lot of fun to play even if I think it's on the strong side and contrary to what I've seen, I like their key ability being Charisma.
the thaumaturge fills an interesting niche that in 1e might have been smth like the ghost hunter or vampire hunter, to me the class as it is now in the playtest is the closest we got to a class that has the flavour of characters like witchers or the hunters in supernatural, people that carry very little magic in them but use their knowledge of the magical world and always come prepared with the right tools to kill ghouls, if you will. Really interested in playing one of those, a thaumaturge with a gunslinger archetype could very well be a weird west sort of character which I'm all here for.
I really enjoy your content. I appreciate the level headed reviews you give.
I liked the group combat because it demonstrates the “team” based tactical combat that is 2e’s strength.
Excellent content. Very professionnal. Incredibly cool class. Keep up the good work.
Great video. Subscribed. I love all things PF2e.
Your vids are outstanding, friend. Keep it up.
upon realization, this class works as a good "General Adventuring" class, like what Bards/Rangers do in 5e which is really nice
Very much agree that pacts shouldn't be tied to any class in particular. It doesn't make much sense for them to be tied to the Thaumaturge anyway.
It fit much better with the Witch's Patron than just a class feat.
I see a thaumaturge as like Aleister Crowley. There is some facet of magic or underlying reality that spans all deities and all disciplines and cultures. They have hobbled together an understanding and mastery of this reality using a wide array of influences and can call on it regardless of their situation.
As the guy who loves taking things like Talisman Dabbler and Snarecrafter, I love this class. With free archetype, I can see you really becoming the guy who just has the solution for every problem in his back pocket. Need to hamper a target? Chuck a bear trap at them. Need a wall of fire? Scroll on hand. This combined with the unique ability to exploit weaknesses is really cool.
As far as favorite implement, I know it's far down the line, but the ability to interrupt any concentrate, move or other action that triggers the weapon reaction on a REGULAR SUCCESS is super crazy as normally AOO only interrupts manipulate actions, not move actions (without a feat) AND it is only on a crit. This combined with the ability to exploit damage and get a good amount of free damage on a target with the weapon is just super cool.
Yes it does look like fun!
The paragon part of Weapon Implement IS very cool! I do feel though that no martial character having the ability to interrupt on a regular success puts this out of line of the overall game balance. As far as I can tell, currently only some super-high-level monsters are able to do this.
I really like this class. Occultist was my favorite class of 1st edition because I thought the themes were very cool and unique. This looks like a fun class to play, though it requires you to remember to keep a lot of stuff in your head.
Picking a favorite implement is pretty tough, though I really like Amulet, Regalia, Wand, and Weapon.
Hey, first of all, love your stuff, second of all, it IS possible for a thamaturge to weild a shield. If they choose the weapon implement, they can choose a shield as their weapon (shield bash is a thing). Then they can draw runes with their shield while they strike with a weapon in a different hand (let's say a longsword) and be fine. I will say that their Attack of Opportunity-like-thing will have to be done with a shield bash, but that's fine. So it is possible, especially with doubling rings so that your shield and weapon share runes.
Just came back to this class after a few months. While at first, I dismissed this class due to always losing a hand in order to hold the esoterica, I realized that the Bastion archetype might be a good fit for the class. With the Nimble Shield Hand at 6th level, they can carry their esoterica in the shielded hand, while keeping their other hand available. Thoughts?
My first impression was that Fling Magic was underpowered. Assuming you are maxed out on Charisma at lv 1, an ability that swings for 2 actions at 80ft, is hitting for 5-9 damage. But after seeing that the scaling is on par with a cantrip and you can choose which element it deals, It's not that bad. I would still prefer to use electric arc whenever but it's the best cantrip for damage. I would like to see it get more elemental options.
Another thing that's interesting about it is that it calls for a saving throw, so like with Electric Arc you can Strike at your full bonus plus use this activity. Also, it's not a spell, which is kind of weird because it "feels" like a spell. So it doesn't provoke an Attack of Opportunity, as it doesn't use somatic or material actions, and it's not a ranged attack. (I am *not* sure this was intended... Making a post on the Paizo forums now!)
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG were you able to figure it out?
@@williamarcehernandez8005 It got 1 response so far. It apparently is the correct reading and it's uncertain whether it's intended. Hence the playtest process I suppose!
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG this makes me like it more. I hope they don't change it. I'm playing a playtest Drifter Gunslinger in one campaign right now and it's frustrating that attacking with my gun and reloading the gun, both provoke. It's cool to see a class that can work around some of that even if the damage is not on par with a GS.
Love to see more casters! Do you think there are more martials coming up?
This isn't a caster per se! And I'm sure we'll see more martials - I wouldn't be surprised if Paizo didn't have a "10 Year Plan" when they launched, with new classes continuing to generate interest
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG yea, I really like that it's not a caster, because while it is vaguely magical, it's not using spells itself but it still uses magic, which is a really cool class concept, no spells but still using magic in some way
I was thinking of making a Dogtooth Tengu with Amulet and cup. It would be frontline support that attacks with beak. It looks like Esoteric Antethesis works with all unarmed and weapon strikes. I am unsure weather Implement empowerment will work with the beak attack because it says “ The power of your implement can also be turned to the rather more common task of combat, as its power flows into your weapon or FIST. What are your thoughts?
my group is a little confused on how Antithesis works. When you get the benefit of the weakness, is it against all "Skeletal champions"? or just that singular one?
From my reading the text reads as it's the single one. However, this question opens a whole can of worms for me and a discussion about Recall Knowledge that I think has no satisfactory answer. See this post: paizo.com/threads/rzs43haa?The-Recall-Knowledge-activity-could-use-a#25
I generally rule that abilities like this are in the vein of Ranger's "Hunt Prey" and a rogue mastermind Recalling Knowledge, in that they apply against 1 creature. This has the upside also that if they fail, they can attempt on another creature of the same type. (As opposed to the usual rule with Recall Knowledge where you can't R.K. the same check again.)
Lantern, you can be Professor Oak working on a pokedex.
To me this class Take the inquisitor from 1E And the warlock from 5E And kind of gave it it's own little flavor so I like it
Main thing: the Wand Adept power procs on all fails, not just crit fails. Also: Divine Disharmony is a bit of an edge case for dealing with zombies, imho, despite not being a Mental effect.
Optimizing this class is tricky to me, as you almost need to cross-level your knowledge skills around what you know your party will face regularly. As for shields, the only way I see right now is picking Weapon Implement (yay, forced movement).
Yeah, Divine Disharmony not being a mental effect seems a bit weird. I can see the "Divine" aspect in the flavor text affecting undead, but should this affect a Gelatinous Cube??
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Would be weird.
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Table salt and more table salt. Oozes are just like slugs, right?
Joking aside, I'd imagine oozes would have an instinct about seeing Jubilex disgracing, seeing as how they're the ooze deity, or have an instinct related to some sort of anti-ooze deity.
Just one thing. You are wrong about standing up being interrupted. While standing up is indeed a move action, it is clearly listed in rules that when standing up an reaction happens AFTER you stand up and therefore it cannot be disrupted. This is the case for the ranger as well who disrupts move actions with Disrupt prey. I did not know about this rule either but I found this out. Not nitpicking and love your content, but you are the Ruleslawyer
Do you have a citation? Looking into this further. From this 11-month old thread it seems like there's no consensus: www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/l8quhr/does_disrupt_prey_and_stand_still_disrupt_stand/
I guess the Thaumaturgist is the Hexblade Warlock as the Psychic is the blaster Warlocks.
I have commented too many times already but I have to admit I thought we'd get a John Constantine combat this time.
This reminds me of the occultist from 1e.
Thematically it totally is the occultist (And the iconics look very similar)
But it's mechanics are totally different! Like 2e's take on the alchemist compared to 1e, it creates its own mechanics instead of being a spellcaster.
For the algorithm
The algorithm!
I suggest, instead of playing out entire encounters, creating a few scenarios which highlight certain aspects of the character, and play out their turn, maybe including some assistance from another party member, or vice versa.
Small quibble - too many other npc’s in the demo. Not enough focus on the new class (compared to the psychic one)
You could always use a buckler to have the hand free. Also the class looks relatively action inefficient. Also feels very restricted weapon/shield wise.
Fluff wise I really like the harry Potter variant.
imo investigator be good with it
Pacts are EXACTLY the kind of flavorful things that Patrons should've been. Not gonna lie, I'm pissed.
The designers at Paizo released lame Patrons and now introduced such a mechanic as a optional class feat for Thaumaturgist? What a waste of an opportunity.
Ah, the Witch Patrons! Yes, they need to use this opportunity to make an alternate Patron feature for the Witch, maybe a Witch feat that taps into a class-independent Pact mechanic?
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG That would be a good patch given the current situation.
Back then, during the Witch's playtest, my main complaint about the class was how the Patrons were meaningless. Their release state was nowhere near what I thought they could, and should, be.
Having Witches being able to access the Thaumaturge's pacts or even having pacts of their own would come a long way towards the kind of Witch I would love to play (the current Patron system is the main factor why I would never prioritize in character creation. Having a good Familiar is not enough of a unique draw for me).
@@LightningRaven42 If there isn't one yet you should start a thread in the Paizo.com Thaumaturge playtest forum. I'm guessing it would spark a lot of discussion. It's such a sound idea that I think it would gain traction.
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Yeah. I was thinking of doing that.
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG I did it. Look it up "Thaumaturge Pact Feats and Witch Patrons"
One small thing with the demo. Mios made a recall knowledge and failed. Due to dubious knowledge they should receive a false and correct fact.
Thanks, I believe I caught that, if you're talking about Mios' first turn during post-production, I put a text up on the screen there
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG ah sorry, i was cooking at the time and missed the visual queue
@@aneldritchdreamgames5925 No harm, no foul! Besides it feeds the algorithm lol
@@TheRulesLawyerRPG Casandalee bless
Thank you very much for respecting the pronouns!
...I despise the thaumaturge as written. For me it fails on almost every axis. Firstly, despite whatever inane description the designers give, this is CLEARLY not a charisma class. You cannot get more int-wis than a collector of oddities, who learns a lot about everything, who crafts whatever they cannot just find. Charisma has no part in it.
And flavour besides, charisma is a terrible stat for this anyhow. To make this class' core feature function reliably, you need to *heavily* invest all your skill increases into the five creature knowledge skills. I can't think of another class as screwed out of their skill increases. Even bard with their performance focus isn't close. And once you *have* invested in these skills, prepared to be disappointed as only in the specific instance of recall knowledge on creatures are they actually competitive. After all, you are a medium armour martial with 8hp/level with a key ability score in CHARISMA. You can't afford NOT to dump intelligence and wisdom, so all those skill increases in intelligence and wisdom skills will be mighty disappointing in any circumstance where find flaws does not apply.
Next problem, antithesis. You would hope an ability flavoured around finding an opponent's weakness would be best against opponents with weaknesses. And whilst, technically, it usually does do more damage against enemies with weaknesses, from another perspective you actually lose out majorly. After all, if they have a weakness, then it can be exploited *without* antithesis, so a fighter capable of hitting that weakness with their weapon will get exactly the same bonus damage as you, but they are also a fighter with all the benefits that entails. You stand to gain far less against an enemy with a weakness than a character with access to the required damage type. Complete flavour fail.