Babylon 5 For the First Time | All Alone in the Night - episode 02x11
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- Опубликовано: 22 окт 2024
- Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.
Alien abductions are a thing!!! Jeff and Brent wonder what life will look like for Delenn now. Oh...and there's a Worker Caste?!?
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What I do love about Neroon in this episode is that he straight up thinks the reason for the Minbari stopping the war was dumb which just helps to show us that not all Minbari are the same and just take things in stride as a monolith. When I first I heard the reason for the surrender I scoffed at it and I was glad to see that characters in the world of the show also felt the same way which in turn made me appreciate it and made me confident that the series wasn't done with the ramifications of it.
That's one of the great things about Neroon. Even though he is clearly an antagonist here, he is not just a simple bad guy twirling a mustache. He has reasons for what he is doing, some which are good, some which are not so good.
Yes, absolutely! They are not a monolith. This is something that gets firmly answered here.
It is impressive that in only 2 appearances John Vickery has made such an impression with his character. He really brings it in this role.
Indeed. This show is not Star Trek. No race is a monolith and None have figured out all their internal problems and issues. None. The simplistic plots of good infallible characters vs definitely and clearly evil characters of Star Trek where everything is a one off to deliver a clear message is not what B5 is about. Babylon 5 is a long form story about flawed people making mistakes, learning, growing, and trying to make their way through chaos to what they hope will be a better future. Some of them Fail... and Fail Hard. Nothing is certain and no one is exactly who they appear to be on the surface.
The Grey Council member who gave Delenn the triluminary was NOT the same one who told her that she was out of the Council. That was the one who showed up in Points of Departure who told Sheridan that he didn’t recognise his authority.
Yes it's clear that the person who gave her the triluminary was wholly acting in their own thoughts, not those of the Grey Council as a whole.
I almost commented that myself. Yeah. Thanks! Not sure why they thought it was the same guy. The guy who was in Babylon Squared was sort of elderly and avuncular. This was Robin Sachs, excellent character actor who plays multiple roles in B5, but avuncular and elderly not at all.
I wouldn’t say that it’s fair to say Sinclair’s reasons for putting himself in danger were never explained. He did have a death wish. He had a hole in his mind. He knew he shouldn’t have survived the Battle of the Line, and he didn’t know why he did. He literally was trying to give himself a blaze of glory to go out in.
Agreed. Sinclair's definitely had reasons behind his actions that we eventually found out about. I don't understand why they would continue to say it wasn't explained. And we don't need to know in the moment or even after several episodes why a character acts they way they do... just take note of it and remember as it's likely each instance is a reminder and build up to something momentous later on.
Delenn said as much in, "A Voice in the Wilderness," Part 2 as why she didn't come to them when Hey, Vern, I mean Varn needed a replacement: "He's looking for a purpose. But his destiny lies elsewhere."
I am so here for an extra episode breaking down the vision/dream sequence. That sequence spawned so much speculation back in the day, and I'd love to see/hear more of your thoughts.
Please Jeff and Brent, make it happen!
Yes!!! This 100% - Please make it happen y'all. It'd be so much fun!!
Oh man it did indeed. I distinctly recall spending like an hour and a half on the Lurkers Guide page for this one, just reading all the commentary.
B5 didn't have a 10 episode finale arc, it had a 110 episode and 3 movie finale arc.
Hey guys! No spoilers, but I will clarify a couple of things that happened to slip your notice.
The cruel Minbari council member was NOT the one who gave Delenn the triluminary. But you have seen him before. He was the one who warned Sheridan and the team about the Trigati in episode 1 of the season. He's also the one who recognized and got jumped by Kalain.
Also in the flashback to the battle of the line, he was in the command center with Dellen, talking about the war and telling her to choose which aircraft to bring in and examine
From the very beginning with the rogue Minbari warrior in The Gathering we've seen how fractured and bigoted the Minbari can be too.
The expectation they had at the ending is that you figure out what Sheridan said. Tell them about what he knows, which is what we know:there is a resistance to Clarke and he has been involved with it, and he is bringing them aboard.
Exactly. Actually, we as viewers know more than Sheridan or any single characters: we have seen the spider thingies pummeling Quadrant 37, we have seen them pursuing G'Kar, we have seen how and why the Centauri-Narn war began. We are at an advantage here. Having Sheridan repeating what we already know would not have been time well spent.
Yeah, I said it in the reaction video and I'll say it again here: I really don't know what ELSE Brent was expecting to hear, it's pretty clear cut. Sheridan is using B5 to gather information that Hague can use to fight against Clark, and now he's bringing the rest of the crew in on it. That's it, there's really nothing more that needs to be said.
@@oenrn Yeah its like that one episode where Delenn start to explain what we and most of the characters already know and the cuts off.
There are two types of people in this world, A. those who can extrapolate from incomplete information
@MoOrion what’s the other kind of person?! I need to know! WHAT OTHER KIND OF PERSON IS THERE?!?!
"I don't like where this is going, like I don't like where Londo is going" - welcome to B5. There are people and situations all over the spectrum. JMS was so talented at writing to real life and honestly, there are times when you scream 'no!' at the screen, followed by times you openly cheer.
The guy running the railroad for reasons you accept is someone who has shown promise and an ability to work behind the scenes to get things done.
And he managed to keep that stuff hidden for about a year from both Garibaldi and Ivanova.
Exactly. If someone is capable of running an underground operation inside the station right under the command staff's nose, that's PRECISELY the guy you want in your super secret spy group.
Jeff’s comment about Ramirez is spot on. JMS has said that one of the themes of the show is “how you face life… and how you face death…In the end, honor and dignity are all we have left”
I can't find it, but I'm the early 2000s, JMS wrote a column for a website that lived a very brief life. One of his columns was about choices and how there's never, "No choice."
I can't find it, but wish I could. Even dying, Ramirez had choices: succumb or attempt to get back and tell others what happened.
The, "They are loyal to earth," line means they are loyal to earth and not necessarily the government of Earth.
Note-- JMS commented on the race Striebs. He got the name from Author who claimed to have been abducted by aliens, Whitley Strieber.
Stieber's book Communion was about those claims, it was a fairly hot seller for a while. his bibliography is a mix of horror, sf and the paranormal.
With the Grey Council, with people coming from different castes, they have different views and opinions, some vastly different. So the council basically said "wait" which is "no, not now." But not all agreed with that. So you can see that the council is not all united, and that is also a reason why they chose Neroon
My take on it is roughly comparable to today's situation where we can have a super duper top secret congressional briefing- and at the end some one of dissenting view leaks to the media what it was about. That never happens, right?
Was the Minbari who gave Delenn the triluminary religious caste? I could see the Grey Council as a whole disapproving but Delenn’s caste enabling her anyway.
@@andrewferrell8304 It wasn't stated in the show, but I feel that's a reasonable assumption
@@andrewferrell8304 That was always my assumption.
My browser had an error and I don't think the comment went through so here it is again (apologies if I'm re-posting a comment that's already there) -- I'm Q4P Mike BC, I had forgotten that the Q4P was in my nickname when I left that review (I don't create content for Q4P anymore)... and have since changed it to match my Elite Dangerous CMDR Name/Twitter handle -- CMDR Erek Sprax. (I guess I just like long names) But YES, I reviewed back in October for the giveaway...It was a nice surprise to hear my review on the show this week. I really appreciate you two! and to clarify -- the guy who gave Delenn the triluminary was NOT the same guy who "fired" her.... that was the guy that tried to have beef with Sheridan in S2 E1... and the guy who gave her the triluminary was not acting on behalf of the grey council...but rather on his own conscience and even warned her that her plans would ruffle feathers... she knew there would be a cost going in.
Like him or hate him: Franklin is exactly the sort of person you bring in on a conspiracy. Because Sheridan has blackmail on him, after all he was illegally running an Underground Railroad on the station. There is guaranted mutual destruction should Franklin betray him/them. It also means (as Franklin has already done so via the Railroad) he has routes to get people on and off the station that Garabaldi/Security didn't know about. He likely has some contacts that would be useful.
Franklin always struck me as a 'good' character, a good guy who's trying to do the right thing, probably (among other reasons) because he sees his father as not caring about it. I don't really know what about the character displeases Jeff and Brent, so I'm assuming it must be the actor -- maybe they don't like Richard Bigg's acting, or the way he handles the character? (BTW, who is their favorite doctor characters from Star Trek? McCoy? Crusher? Polawski? The Doctor? Phlox? Bashir? Or are the doctor characters always 'less important' than the others?)
Also, he has a proven track record of being willing to disobey authority in order to do something he believes to be right.
@@miller-joel I agree. I was approaching this from the most cynical perspective possible. Mostly because Brett and Jeff really don't seem to like Franklin. It is mostly the trope that Doctor's in Nineties Sci-Fi always seemed to be willing to be unethical when it was a decision between being right and doing the ethical thing. It is one of the reason's I liked Believers, as it shows the negative consequences of that trope. I don't actually dislike Franklin, I just wanted to point out why even if Sheridan was to dislike Franklin (which the character blatantly doesn't) what he brings to the table.
@@Asehpe I don't think it is the actor; I think it is how fast and loose Franklin seems to be with doctor-patient ethics.
You two mates give me joy. That's important. Not just that you give ME joy - no, it's important that you know your work gives joy to people spread all over. People who work hard to create happiness should be applauded.
(Edit: spelling)
@@tulinfirenze1990 It did take a Wtf? and a bit of a think, but light eventually dawned (as it tends to). My answer:
You'll never go wrong with svenskdjävlar - premium crafted super(!) salty liqourice. Will make me happy any day, any place. Will no doubt conquer the world.
Thank you!!!!!
Hey, glad you liked this one! Three and a half star-furies is fair. Had the stuff on board the Streib spaceship been better shot I'd have given it that. The usually exemplary make-up department were really caught napping with the Streib, but, as it stands, this one gets a respectable three from me. I'm harsh.
Ramirez! Noooo! I love how he immediately clicks with everyone. Keffer wishes he had his charm. You've gone to a better place Ramirez, a place where Martian baseball rules the leagues. All in all a good episode then, though not great. It's wonderful to see Neroon pull up a big condiments trolley and start slathering the mustard over all that wonderful ham he brings. Some Babylon 5 guest actors really rise to the slightly over-dramatic scripts JMS pens and John Vickery is definitely one of them. Fantastic work from Mira as well, who really sells the pain.
I think the Minbari Grey Council have become so used to floating among the stars, dealing in abstractions and airy musings about distant prophecies, that real dramatic change is a shock to them. The Minbari consider themselves better than other races, more spiritual, and to have an honoured Minbari such as Delenn turn half-human - I think their minds rebelled, they did not truly believe that this would be the outcome. They probably mused on it being a more abstract, spiritual, 'moment of transition' and did not understand what she - and they - were getting into. I don't think Delenn fully knew either. So shock breeds fear and fear breeds anger, and who better a target for their anger than the one that is the catalyst of this change?
I honestly think though that JMS suddenly thought, "Oh crap! There has to be a third caste!" as he realised everything was done in threes by the Minbari and just dropped it in there.
"I'm a traumatised war veteran with survivor's guilt, looking to redeem myself through my own death."
Jeff: "INSUFFICIENT."
"I really need that flight pay. These streaming subscriptions are really adding up."
Jeff: "ACCEPTABLE."
And Franklin is absurdly principled, won't reveal patient secrets, has tons of connections about the place and is a born rebel. Of course you get him on your side in Team Good Earthforce. Though of course you would have to put up with his odd moralising lecture in the team meetings.
Great podcast once again guys. Now I have to wait another week. Bah!
I've long wished that they had Dirk Benedict play Keffer. If they had, I think things would have been far different with the show. Could have been all kinds of nods to Galactica but also talk about his character on Galactica and do commentary on that type of persona (which, I feel, they were doing as it is).
@@tulinfirenze1990 several people have explained that the character was forced upon JMS. And no, it it would not have been too late -- he could still have played the part, just as others from Galactica were active in other series (including its reboot, when it came out).
@@hornorsilk2901 While I have a great deal of fondness for 70's Galactica ("MORMONS IN SPAAAAACE!") and Dirk Benedict I always think it's a mistake for science-fiction to reference other shows, even be it through nods and winks. Galactica is very different from B5, right down to even the fighter pilot stuff in the show, and Dirk would have been too high profile and drawn focus into a role that B5 was never really about anyway. I do agree that such commentary would be interesting, we got it a bit in BSG, but they tipped their hand a bit too far the other way, as much as I Ioved the remake as well.
@@PeterEvansPeteTakesPictures the thing is, we have had many famous actors in S2 of B5 (including Dwight Shulz), so that I don't think it would be a problem. They do give nods in B5 to all kinds of things. It's just the focus should not be the nod.
Love your theory. Just remember that Babylon 5 plotting and mysteries are "the hydra" of narrative. Answer one question; two more will take it's place.
JMS has dropped plenty of hints along the way. Back in the day we were very hungry for more, so we rewatched the episodes I recorded on VHS several times during the week. It helped us pick up these things. Yep. I even rewatched infection a couple of times.
I can neither confirm nor deny any of your theories, but it is always fascinating to see which things you lock onto as fans of genre TV vs. the ones I remember focusing on back when I was watching as a teenager. I can honestly say that while I have sometimes rolled my eyes, snorted, or uttered a 'just wait' to one of your points, my most frequent response is reflecting on what you said and how you got there, and being fascinated by the parallels and differences with my own thinking. Your show is doing the same thing good Sci-Fi does. Making me think about a perspective that isn't my own.
Yes, I AM either freaking out OR laughing my ass off right now!
So am I OR neither am I.
The dream sequence gives off Twilight Zone vibes, which is eloquent as JMS used to write for the Twilight Zone remake. He even got to finish a Rod Serling script post mortem
Oh that's cool, I didn't know that.
About Sheridan: no, it wasn't a retcon. It all connects. We were told Hague had something for him to do, but we were not told on screen what it was. The discomfort he has early on in the season connects to what he said to Hague here. He didn't like doing it, but he did it.
And a reboot version of Sheridan I do believe would end up being a bad guy, if they do a reboot. Which will not be the same story, just some similar characters and situations to meet the modern age.
This is another reason there should be a "Babylon 5 for the Second time"... Going back and seeing just how far back the clues were planted will blow your mind.
Also Sheridan’s “obsession” with conspiracies and secret organizations that allowed him to be aware of Section 13 or whatever they called themselves in that episode? He couldn’t reveal that he knew about that because he was doing undercover conspiracy-hunting. So he made up a stupid hobby as an excuse for the knowledge.
There is a reboot supposedly being made, headed by JMS.
Well, CW commissioned a pilot script for a reboot. It’s being considered, nothing beyond that has happened. So far it’s just one script that’s been written and submitted for consideration. It hasn’t been passed on yet, at least.
@@fakecubed as I said, I expect in a reboot Sheridan will turn out to be "bad." Just one of the twists I expect from it. But we don't know if a reboot will be made yet.
Oh yes, please, please please do the vision analysation! To this day I don't get what's that about, but I'm really bad with this kind of stuff. I'd really appreciate some guidance here!
About the "the captain has to be the hero of the day" complaint: Garibaldi did call Sinclair out on this in Episode... when he asked him more or less if he's got Survivors guilt and is looking for a way to go out in a blaze of glory. So JMS had an explanation here, even though Jeff answered with: "I don't have an answer for you." Which to me translates to "You might be on to something here..."
About Franklin: Wouldn't somebody who runs an underground railroad because it's morally the right thing to do exact the guy you want to have if you're about to do something that's "strictly within the rules... for the moment" because it's the moral thing to do?
I really like how Brent and Jeff are so different but so complementary in the analysis of episodes.
About spoilers... I'm worried about how eager some comments are to show off their knowledge of the series. We know it (you had 30 years to learn) but, please, the whole fun is (re)discovering it, not (even emotionally) anticipating it.
This B5 is not a favorite of me but I do really love how this episode mirrors the literal and figurative loneliness of Sheridan and Delenn. I think Sheridan displays his Humanity (uppercase) and not an Earth first advocate. He didn´t leave Narn from Narn behind to save himself, he mourns the unfair death of Ramirez; some lowercase humans would not care about a dying Narn or a dead subordinate. And precisely a subordinate like Lennier is the crutch and uplift for Delenn when the Gray Council choose to call her impure and make her an outcast.
About the ending scene I dont think more explanation is needed. Sheridan briefs the team about what just talked with General Hage: there is some factional stir caused in Earth around the death of Santiago.
Tnak you all. I'm having so much fun! 😀
Thank you for this!! And thank you for the comment on spoilers! There is no prize for being the first person to share you wealth of knowledge of things to come. Appreciate it!!
The organic tech thing absolutely is real in the B5-verse. Clearly I can't say more, but I love seeing you guys connect the dots.
My mother worked for the Idaho Commission for the Blind for over two years in the late 80's and Hellen Keller was a big deal I learned about in Junior High. I honestly don't understand how people can so easily dismiss her struggle, her strength, and what she achieved in her life...
Club 65!!!
Great reaction video, don't have anything to say that wasn't covered. Thanks for putting in the time to make this.
Thank you for the breakdown of the mind sequence Sheriden had.I have watched the show over and over, but never stopped it going piece by piece .I am pleased to learn new things still!
Brent, your theory could be so right and/or so wrong. Can't wait till you find out. Looking forward to the next one! And Jeff, I caught that Zelda reference, gave me a chuckle.
Where in the video does he talk about the theory? I'm at work and can only watch bits and pieces right now.
I was thinking about his theory too. He could still be right and wrong🤣
@@philippschmidt80 starts around 27:35
So interesting that B5 turned a monster of the week episode into something impactful.
I actually dont like this episode. It has some important stuff but still feels like a filler.
@@Kornn66 Every episode had 'something', even if very little, even if just some small bit of context about a character. Of course we're still free to have our preferences. This is far from my favorite episode, but also far from my 'least good' episode. It's somewhere in-between, with reasonably important stuff happening and a reinforced feeling that there is a larger plot going on that we should be aware of.
When Brent compared Sheridan with Luke Skywalker, it made me smile, because Bruce Boxleitner, who plays Sheridan, also auditioned for the role of Luke Skywalker in the original 1977 Star Wars movie.
Great show as always. One comment on spoilers in comments. Sometimes they'll remember something perfectly, sometimes they might misremember them. It can be so tempting to correct, because they've already seen it so it's not a spoiler, but misinterpreting things, misremembering things on a weekly show is all part of the true first time experience. Unless they specifically ask to 'let us know down below' then best to keep quiet.
If I ever say something which goes into spoilers, let me know. I try to let others know, because it is so easy to do so by accident.
@@hornorsilk2901 Definitely! I think we are all in the same boat, it's really easy to have a brain fart and phrase something badly, misremember where we are or just blurt. I only mentioned it here as they talk about it a bit more in some of their full length reactions and what might not actually be a spoiler to the storyline/plot may spoil their 'new' experience.
The Stribe are different from the Roswell Greys from the court scene. When you rewatch the episode look at the mouth/nose area when shown. They also appear taller than the Greys during the hallway scenes.
65
Not a spoiler, just an observation based on events so far. Between the nastiness happening at home on Earth, discord with the Grey Council, and the Narn/Centauri war, and Londo breaking bad it’s as if a (metaphorical) shadow is being cast over all of the players.
I don't think that the Minbari that gave Delenn the triluminary back in the first season is the same one that 'fired' her in this episode. The one that gave it to her had a must softer tone to his voice, and this one is much harsher. One of the things that the guy who gave it to her said, back in that first season episode, was "there are two others, this one won't be missed for some time". That indicated to me that he went behind the other Grey Council members backs to give it to her.
The alien in Grail was a Vree. They're the League members with the flying saucers (we saw one of their ships in Deathwalker). They too look like Roswell greys but with better makeup effects.
As for the Streib, personally i think they weren't meant to get shown in the episode and then maybe the director made a last minute change and wanted to add them running around in a panic as the ship was under attack so they went out and bought a couple of halloween masks to put the extras in.
As for whether or not we see them again... to quote River Song: "spoilers."
No one says it better than River Song!
Thank you Jeff. Something you said this episode made me see it in a light I have not seen it before, thus highlighting the benefits of this podcast with the unique lens you are trying to apply to Babylon 5. I have just discovered a new layer that JMS had put in that I have not seen before. I can't speak of it further but need to put a reference somewhere to talk about this later.
Thank you for this!! This is some of the coolest feedback we can possibly get!
SPOILER ALERT - Do not read below if you have not seen the entire series.
Jeff also gave me another way of looking at this or defining this episode. Is it "Who are you?" Sheridan, Delenn and Ramirez
How one chooses to act when they are dying can lead to the question "Who is/was the Centauri Emperor (who died on Babylon 5)? Captain Sheridan said he behave differently from his father by giving up territory. However the Emperor seem to say he only did what was expected of him.
@@artmartial350 Yup. When Jeff said those words when summing up I was shocked.
The thing about B5 is those points seasons down the line where you go; Oh crap that 5 second scene way back just blew my mind.
In the 90s I used this episode as an intro to B5 for a bunch of my friends and that was really for one big reason: it had so much of a Star Trek premise, but it totally didn't play out like a ST episode. And it culminates in the Agamemnon coming out of hyperspace and "negotiating" with the Strieb via a few terawatts of laser fire (which is probably not the best policy, but sure was fun!)
The guy who gave Delenn a Triluminary and the guy who came in the first episode of season 2 and said "We told her not to do it" are different people. The second one also played a memorable villain from Buffy The Vampire Slayer named Ethan.
Also just ebcause one member of the Council was sympathetic to Delenn and have given her a Triluminary, doesn't mean that the Council approved it any way - ruling body decided something, then a person chose a different thing
With how it establishes the structure of the Grey Council in this episode, it seems reasonable to assume that the person who gave her the Triluminary was acting on behalf of the religious caste. Up until this point you didn't get the full details of the schisms in the MInbari, so it makes sense to not understand that until now
@@neilbiggs1353 Yep, problem is, they assumed it's the same guy when it's not, and then assumed that Minbari have no duplicitous nature, politicians that go against their own governemtn and stuff like that.
Adding my voice to the praise, there are many other Bab5 Reaction shows on RUclips, I’d say you have some unique qualities, and you have some of the more professional production and presentation.
I’m a fan of MedusaCascade who is very close to finishing her first run through as she’s posting her abridged reactions to season 5 now.
There are many other voices in the wilderness, but you guys are paving the way - Keep up your great content creation. I’m here for it.
MC is on 5.15 on Patreon (which I have yet to watch), and Shelley has just posted 2.14, but both are very enthusiastic viewers, it's good to see.
@@tulinfirenze1990 Shelley also started B5 by only watching episodes when specifically requested by Patreons of a certain tier, but when she changed it to first a bi-weekly episode and now a weekly episode she's really ramped up the interest in the show.
Jones Reactions is now really getting hooked on the show as well. He's up to 1x11 on RUclips, or 1x14 on patreon.
Chosen One Reactions is a good bet. She puts a lot of thought into her responses and spends about ten to twenty minutes after the episode going over her feelings and what she picked up. She did have a big gap in her episodes as real world stuff overtook her for a while but is back on it now.
@@tulinfirenze1990 I believe she lives in Denmark but I'm not sure.
Oh wow, I can't wait for you guys to watch.... lol just you wait and see, so much fun! I also think it is really fun that Jeff is into Dune and Brent is into Stargate, two of my other favorite franchises. (also played Mass Effect back in the day but I don't remember the B5 connection, it was a long time ago) Anyhow, I so enjoy these episode drops, something to look forward to each week.=D
We try to bring all your fandoms into the show!!
I like how you're super into the earth stuff. Star Trek and B5 deal with earth and humanity in both very familiar and very different ways. I'm laughing at your theory, but not for the reasons you might think. You're only a handful of episodes away from some big reveals, and there's still more than 3 seasons to go. I sooooo wish you could do 2 episodes a week!
What's great about Neroon is that he gives you an aspect of the Minbari that you don't usually see since we spend most of the time with Delenn and the religious cast. The Minbari don't all think the same way. When he found out about the way the war ended, he literally thought it was nonsense.
Another clearly throwaway episode :)
They did hint that Sheridan was very well connected as part of his collecting secrets.
You finally met Narn, the Narn from Narn. I'm glad that you liked it, but it's not an episode that I enjoy watching, so I'm happy it's behind us.
Yes! I love Narn, the Narn from Narn, especially his interactions with Narn, the Narn from Narn.
An excellent episode, indeed!
BTW the Narn was played by an actor we have seen before, back in the episode "Infection": Marshall Teague.(Nelson who turned into the killing machine).
OK, Brent: That was a very interesting thought about the organic tech. I can see how that thought formed in your mind. No more to say about that.
Interesting discussion you had on Patriots - you are right this aired in 1995. It made me think of the aftermath of 9/11, the so-called "Patriot Act". Yes this is a completely different situation from 1995.
Great discussion!
@@BabylonLurker I went ahead and removed it, nor a big deal
@@MrDdaland Thanks, we do like to keep Brent and Jeff spoiler free, don't we?
@@BabylonLurkerLol, not sure if it qualifies as a spoiler, since both of their reactions on Patreon commented on it- but I get your reasoning for not mentioning it too. So when in doubt- I'll make the changes
I think we can safely say, after the lower episodes, from here on, is where the Network stepped back and said to JMS "Okay, Show us" like in Christine (The movie) where Arnie stands in front of Christine and says "Okay, SHOW ME", because from here on, this now turns in to JMS's actual story. And yes, there will be plenty screaming at the screen but holding back on the spoilers, get ready, because it's on, from here on. Enjoy the ride.
Oh and this episode....... Original air date: February 15, 1995
Ravens in the dream sequence:
Ravens and doves, from the King James Bible:
And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made; and he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth. Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; but the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth; and then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark. And he stayed yet another seven days, and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark; and the dove came in to him in the evening; and lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off; so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. And he stayed yet another seven days, and sent forth the dove, which returned not again unto him any more. --Genesis 8:6-12
And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the Lord God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word. And the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, Get thee hence, and turn thee eastward, and hide thyself by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan. And it shall be, that thou shalt drink of the brook; and I have commanded the ravens to feed thee there.
So he went and did according to the word of the Lord; for he went and dwelt by the brook Cherith, that is before Jordan. And the ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the brook. --1 Kings 17:1-6
Yes and no. Let's not exaggerate. There are still bad, meh, and average episodes to come (and different people might even say one or two coming up in S2 are bad or meh). But I think as a whole, we will see the change, until it will seem like what it becomes was what it always was, just our head space was not yet ready for it.
The title is taken from a line in the opening narration in the title sequence: "A shining beacon in space, all alone in the night."
People denying the existence of Helen Keller has the same energy as people who think aliens had to be the ones to build the pyramids.
Humanity is capable of far more than such people give us credit for.
Another great discussion! I'm enjoying your analysis and predictions. Knowing what's coming, I can't wait until next Monday!
Are you suprised Franklin is among the crew at the end ?
If there is SOMEONE Sheridan can trust to be loyal to "the RIght thing "insted of following orders it must be Franklin ?
Is there any rule he hasen't broken yet becasue he felt it was the moraly right thing to do ?
@@tulinfirenze1990 They're also wrong. He doesn't sleep with his patients. He kissed one and realised it was a mistake (and crap writing), and asked someone on a date who wasn't his patient.
@@simongiles9749 I would have described the 'patient' as a daughter of a potential colleague/ally, and honestly I wish she could have hung around as a minor character. The thing that put them off Franklin that I have the hardest time with is where they thought he should have instantly been on board with the idea of an Alien healing device - what Franklin did was perfectly in line to how doctors in poor communities to react to snake oil salesmen (or homeopathy...)
@@simongiles9749I agree with this.
Also, they did explain why Sinclair always went out on the missions too - he was looking for a reason to die for - he had survivors guilt from the battle of the line.
One critical thing JMS did for the entirety of B5 was to be prepared for real-life changes that affect production. You've already seen that Takashima was replaced by Ivanova but her original traitor storyline went to Garibaldi's 2nd. Of course, Sinclair/Sheridan. I don't think Kyle/Franklin was a big deal. JMS could not have the overall arc beholden to any specific person who could leave for health, personal, professional, or performance/incompatability reasons (Na'toth)..
Some of the Starfury flight physics in this episode reminded me of the Gunstar ship in The Last Starfighter. A quick web search tells me that movie dates all the way back to 1984, so an entire decade before Babylon 5. Wikipedia tells me The Last Starfighter's computer graphics were about half the film's budget, and they were run on a Cray supercomputer. Neat!
Think I've read somewhere that the "Gunstar" was in fact one of the contributing designs for the Starfury
Oh, yes!!! Totally a Last Starfighter style style. Fantastic reference!!!
"Delenn - she knew who she was..." put a pin in that, we'll get to that shortly
“We’ll get to that shortly” is an excellent description of Babylon 5
I was just listening and thinking about season 2 and your expectations and realities, and I had an idea. We all know where things are going, and can see links and connections, and they are all over the place, also the end episodes of season 2 are rather intriguing. But season 2 is also a bit like 1, you are still building a bit, and figuring things out. My favourite is 3. You have a much better idea of what's happening and it's fun. There are a few not so great, but just wait. We built you up too much for season 2, but it is much more the latter part, and 3, just wait till you get there, I'm really looking forward to you hitting 3
We were begging for season 3, but we’re getting to some good episodes now. Hoping the ramp up continues
know who you are, and stick with it to the end. profound words
What I like about this show is that no species is a Paragon. Everyone is capable of being amazing or terrible, even the Mimbari.
Except the Vorlons- they are pretty close to perfect aren't they?
@@MrDdalandstick around and find out ;)
@@miller-joel Zathras is better tho
In reference to hints of Sheridan's mission not being foreshadowed. If you consider in past episodes he's talked about collecting secrets and conspiracies, and how he doesn't like them, and shown that he works in his idea of what is in the best interest of Earth, not necessarily the Earth Government.
You know who else is a Patriot. If you remember way back in season one with Morden, Londo is a patriot, which shows the dark side of patriotism.
References to "The Hand" has happened in past episodes.
Didn't you guys mention the Rule of Three in a past episode? I'm guessing that the Minbari have just broken it.
57:39 No, that was not the same guy that gave Delenn the Triluminary. This was a different character. We did see this character earlier this season, but he's not the guy who gave Delenn the Triluminary last season. It was *NOT* Grey Council approved, *that* guy gave it to her of his own volition.
No spoilers: Sheridan's dream: My favourite description of the dream sequence is that it was B5's David Lynch bit.... love that, definitely feels very Twin Peaks/Mulholland Drive-esque.
I can't help but point out that in your hated episode * Infection * there's a supposition that even the Vorlons use organic technology....
Yeah, yeah, yeah…there’s good stuff in Infection. But, we stand by Soul Hunter being hit garbage (and will probably get proven wrong there too…)
Wait, Helen Keller was not born blind and deaf -- she lost her sight and hearing after a severe illness when she was little. It doesn't negate the magnitude of what she overcame, but there is a difference between losing two senses right when you're starting to say words and never having those senses to begin with.
Wow, 2 buzz's just in the recap!
I love the 'faith of the heart' buzz btw.
I recall asking someone to remove the spoiler about the worker caste and they got seriously stroppy that myself and others asked them to do that... No spoilers please (if I ever slip then I'll edit the very second it's pointed out)
Sheridan's explanation of why he needed to go on that mission is tiny but great, they get flight pay and have to log X hours every Z weeks.
That's a good explanation but the line about just wanting to get out of the station and get back in space, it carries so much more humanity than listing regs.
If I was in Sheridan's shoes I'd certainly have Franklin in my anti coup squad.
Jeff, patriotism here in the UK is a loaded word now so I also get that kind of feeling when I hear the word used.
Back in the 90's this vision confused the crap outa me, it also confused the crap outa all my B5 friends back then. The theories were flying left and right & they were wild!
I love how this vision sent you both off on one with theories and Jeff pausing to study each shot.
No, I'm not going to confirm or deny anything.
I hate Neroon for how he speaks to Delenn, I love the actor cause he delivers it so well but ... ouch!
I've spoken to other trans people who are fans and what Neroon say's often gets to us, many of us have had people say we're 'living a fantasy', 'an affront', that we have 'a foot in both worlds' but 'no place in either now'.
It's very close to things I've had said to me as family or friendships crumbled.
That scene seems to really hit a raw nerve with many in my community.
Being a Brit I never knew about Helen Keller, seeing your reactions on Patreon to that line made me go research & I was shocked that JMS chose to write that.
I'd love a special extra video for you both going over the dream sequence (maybe deep dives like this could be a Patreon extra anytime something noteworthy/theory spinning happens)
I'm buzzing myself, but while I get the "Schisms" (buzz) reference, I feel more "Allegiance" (buzz) vibes with the Captain abducted and put with others, who they work with to free themselves.
And to answer Brent's questions, regarding if his theory is dead-on, off the mark, or in-between, I can only answer as Kosh: "Yes."
The 50 Shades of Red by Brent.
I think there's one thing in your podcast that I am in full agreement with: the extent to which today's world looks like Babylon 5's, i.e. the extent to which B5 is perhaps more relevant today that it was in the 1990's, is amazing. Almost uncanny. What did JMS know...?
@@miller-joel One thing we never see in the purely upwardly mobile Star Trek is this notion that the mistakes of the past are going to be made again in the present... Very often, when we think we have grown past something, said something comes back to bite us in the foot. Only rarely do we really, REALLY leave something behind forever...
@@miller-joel Worf has a pretty epic arc across TNG and DS9.
@@miller-joel I tend to agree. But let's try and avoid being spoiler-adjacent here. I'll just say that Star Trek is supposed to be about our 'best selves', about exploring the universe AFTER we had solved all our social and cultural problems on Earth. Which is why an episode like DS9 "In the Pale Moonlight" becomes so controversial -- either one of the best ever, or one of the worst (in the sense of having the least to do with Gene's vision of Star Trek). Whereas in Babylon 5, "In the Pale Moonlight" wound not be controversial at all -- it would just fit nicely.
Star Trek is about us getting better, being what we believe we could be if we just set ourselves to it. Babylon 5 is about how hard, how awfully hard it can be to strive for that, and how often we end up repeating past mistakes along the way.
Each show is saying an important thing. Each pleases me. I don't want the story of Kirk or Sisko or Pike to be different. Nor do I want the story of Sheridan, Sinclair, G'Kar, Londo, or Kosh to be different. They're all great in their own different ways,.
To quote another great sci-fi series “All of this has happened before. All of this will happen again.”
@@miller-joel LOL, from the great sage Dr Smith
This is the first time I believe we find out the full membership of the Grey Council. It has 3 warrior caste, 3 religious caste and 3 religious caste and they seem to be passed down within the caste's. So one religious is out, another is chosen... but we see first time, since Valen created it a 1000 years ago, a religious caste member we replaced with a different caste, specifically the warrior caste. Also why we see so much Triangle stuff around the council, it seem's 3's are a big thing for them.
Golly, I know you guys are currently in season 4, but there's a season 5 episode I really wish I could reference here... Dagnabit!
I know you didn't get a review or email like this on this episode, but you've gotten them in the past where people comment how impactful a show was for them - I wonder if you guys would ever consider doing a book instead of a show at some future point? B5 didn't come out until I was in college, but I remember in high school reading Les Miserable, the full 1400 page unabridged version, and that was very impactful on me. I would super love to hear you guys do a podcast on that. Not the musical, not some abridged version, the entire full version in all its gory detail. With that much content you could easily spread that out over many, many months if you really wanted to, or as little as a month and a half or so if you did each "book" as an episode (there being 48 such "books", but a couple of them are so short you could do two books in one episode). While the conditions of 19th century France may not all be relevant to the present day, still many of the messages and themes should resonate beautifully with the kind of Star Trek stuff you are so finely tuned in to.
Ha! 48 episodes = 1.5 months. That's me thinking in terms of my own daily upload schedule, which is not to be expected here. So it'd be more like a year of episodes :)
There is a video titled “J Michael Straczynski on Paramount Stealing Ideas from Babylon 5”.
But you should watch that later (after season 3) because it contains a mild spoiler on a guest star yet to come (just the name, nothing about the role). Just bookmark it for later.
@@miller-joel JMS said in that interviewed that he wanted to sue their asses out of them. But that would probably have been the death of both shows. So, everybody remained silent to not put the project at jeopardy.
Great reactions. I love your comments and predictions. It makes look forward to certain episodes.
Dale is Awesome. Be like Dale.
Talking about patriots: Londo is a patriot as well. That's why he does what he does.
If you want to compare the situation of B5 to Star Trek, the closest thing is Enterprise: Mankind learned interstellar space travel just recently, and there are still a lot of xenophobic ressentiments against alien, foremost Minbari, of course. Homeguard is technically very similar to Terra Prime.
So stop me if you've heard of this story before: A spaceship captain gets captured by aliens, locked up in a cage, and then some mysterious experiments are performed on him. And it takes an external rescue by his first officer, a very skilled woman.
BZZZZT!
39:49 If this were one of the Star Treks, Bones, Beverly, & Bashir would have been included in the big final meeting.
One thing neither of you touched on- notice how easily Delenne and the EA force worked together?
Once again Brent is so right with his big theory.....and so wrong 😂
And he was so confident that he will not be both for once, haha.
Helen Keller wasn't born deaf and blind, she became deaf in early childhood, at least in the novelization. Because remembering the word "water" was the thing that made the connection with her teacher.
She became both deaf and blind at around 18 months due to a childhood illness. The current thinking is she had meningitis.
Species 8475 from Voyager kind of look like Shadows. Of course the same effects company did both, but surely they wouldn't just use their old work and change colours etc.
three things i want to add:
- regarding the organic technology theory. remember what was said in 'Infection' it an advanced technology that humans have not yet mastered, but unlike Star Trek not all the alien races are on the same level: Earth Forces are roughly comparable to Narn and Centauri, the Minbari are more powerful and advanced and the Vorlons, well..the archaeologist from Infection suspects the Vorlons use organic tech.
- also Infection: the actor Marshall Teague who got mutated into the war machine plays the Narn who got rescued with Sheridan from the Streibs
- Signs and Portents: Kosh did say to Morden 'They are not for you' while Morden was in the blue sector which where the human administration and CnC is located, also we don't see what happened, but there is a line that Kosh asked for stuff to repair his suit.
I would rather say that Earth is the least advanced of these. They just recently discovered interstellar space travel and still use rotation for artificial gravity. This is very much comparable to mankind in Enterprise with the other species being on the level of the Vulcans. And concerning the Vorlons: well, they are mysterious and we know little of them.
Super cool that Marshall Teague gets a redemption episode. “Narn” was super cool
No spoilers: In discussion of organic technology may I draw your attention back to the episode which contained the technomages. What are technomages? well they are organic living beings who use technology to their advantage, potentially integrating tech into their bodies. Look back, what was the name of the episode?
A note on the guy who (at least seems to be) both handing Delenn the triluminary, and then disdains her. That's Lindsey Graham (and basically every other politician). Go wherever the wind is blowing.
Pretty sure they were two totally different characters.
@@IO_Darren Me too. But it goes for the council's approach in general. "We approved before, we disapprove now. Deal with it."
@@rick-says-hello-world He wasn't acting on behalf of the council. That character was acting of his own volition.
enjoyed the commentary, going to enjoy your reactions when your guesses on where the show is going is correct and more when you realize it was way off. keep it up.
Much of the 5th season stories got moved to the 4th season because they didn't think they were getting a 5th season. So much of what you may think may happen in the 5th season happens in the 4th season. It also left the 5th season a little on the weak side (more like season 1 early season 2 instead of later season 2 until the end of season 4 which is where the best stuff is).
Now, the main stuff of the show is slowly starting. Well, it started in the pilot already, but now we get a clue where this all is going.
NGL, I was dreading your review of this one as it's not a favourite of mine. Pleasantly surprised by your reaction though!
The Minbari's leader got killed--one soul--and then all of them decide to wipe out ALL of humanity FOREVER. They are NOT "the ideal of humanity".
I'm pretty sure this is a spoiler. I don't think the complete cause of the war has been revealed as of this episode. Please edit.
@@percysowner Yep. Not revealed yet.
Not shown yet
Delenn doesn't use the Triluminary because it is approved by the Grey Council. She uses the Triluminary because Kosh encouraged her with whatever he showed her in Chrysalis. I thought that was clear. And to fully understand her intentions, you have to know what the Triluminary actually is. So far we only know of this relic, that Delenn used it to turn herself into a Human-Minbari hybrid.
The Grey in "grail" is a different race from the Streib. I don't recall ever actually hearing the races name on the Show... I think we learned their name from toys or some other source outside of the show and JMS confirmed that the Grey in that episode was a member of the race. Other's have said the name in the comments... I don't consider it a spoiler but it is true that the ambiguity existed for Fans back then so... Whatever if you want to hear more about them as minor background stuff let me know.
Oh... yeah No the Roswel Greys seen in the Episode Grail are called the Vree.
Around 24-25 min in…both of you were talking about how good this episode was…and I began to think…if they are going to give this, an admittedly GOOD episode, 5 star furies …then you are going to need to up the # of the star fury’s possible when we finally get to the great and astounding episodes that will be coming….in the future. So, I am glad you kept it at 3.75 Star Fury’s….It’s fair.
Now, when you finally do get to the “Epic” episodes…how about 5 Star Fury’s and an Ivanova….or maybe 5 Star Fury’s with a sprinkling of a Kosh?
Agree with Brent's comment on "loyal to Earth". That's not well expressed. I'd have preferred something like "loyal to the truth" or just "principled". Which is what they are, they want to do what is "right", not just what Earth wants them to do.
Loyal to Earth doesn't mean loyal to the government.
Yay for some really awesome characters in this episode... Don't think I wanna say who though :D
In the dream sequence, is the "hand" Ivanova mentions in this episode the same hand that Londo dreams about in "The Coming of Shadows" (episode 9)?
Good question. There is a lot to speculate on.
I don't think so. I believe Londo sees the hand because it's literally what the Technomage said to him in Geometry of Shadows earlier this season. "I see a great hand reaching out of the stars, the hand is your hand...."
Looking forward to the video of the breakdown of the Sheridan's vision
Thanks!
I’m not confirming nor denying your theories but from your conversations I realized that there are other sci-fi properties that copied parts of the story line that you may have been exposed to. This may spoil or at least clue you in on storylines when if you watched this when it came out there was so much that we didn’t experience yet.
Yeah, I'm having that issue too - how can you say that (for a nonsense example) Jon Pertwee's Doctor Who ripped off Babylon 5 for example without them being alerted to that specific era of Who confirms spoilers etc. I'm figuring towards of the end of the show's run we can start to get in to the things that B5 influenced afterwards
On one hand I think that Brent should move away from treating Babylon 5 like episodic television that has closure at the end of each episode and accept that some things will be set aside for several episodes -- or several seasons -- and that JMS usually gives answers to the questions raised. On the other hand I remember how when I watched the show during its original run I was frustrated at how long it took to see everything play out. As frustrating as that is, it's a feature not a bug. Recognizing it as a feature helped me to more fully enjoy the story on its own terms.
But that is exactly what causes you wanting to binge watch the show at one point. You want to know what happens next.
Sneaking in a massive story, disguised as episodic TV was the greatest magic trick JMS ever performed.