Mankind: “We are losing the war!” A Space Marine Chapter full of failed genetic experiments probably called the Mistakes: *Wipes out 5 Tyrannid Hive Minds, 10 Eldar’s bases, 20 Orc Waaaaaaaghs and a Avatar of Khaine*
@@toheekang174especially compared to stuff like halo where humanity gets its ass kicked at every single engagement save for daring acts of heroism that only slow down the inevitable. 40k isn't dark, it's edgy, you want dark? Read the fall of reach, child super soldiers being pressed into suicidal missions because they're the only thing that even barely works against an enemy that will inevitably win, and quickly. GW should hire whoever wrote halo reach and the original halo novels, get some actual hopeless darkness in 40k.
If I remember correctly, for the Helsreach crusade the Black Templars deployed 100 Space Marines, 98 of them died. The only 2 that survived were Reclusiarch „I hate my live“ Grimaldus and a Tech Marine, who only survived because he spent months in a vault trying to power up a nova canon, they’re by not being present in the actual war. The ending was depressing man, the apothecary died and all of the rescued geneseed got destroyed and even Grimaldus was not only pissed that he survived, but also that everyone calls him „the Hero of Helsreach“, as if their was only one… That is I think a good example of „Marines losing but still kicking ass“ story.
@@pancreasnowork9939 i have no idea what 40k even is but like 5 videos into it and everything is insanity. Is there like a series to watch or specific book to read to gain insight on this?
@@pancreasnowork9939 have you read ‘Rynn’s World’? Fantastic book detailing the royal rodgering of the Crimson Fists by WAAAAAAAGH! Snagrod. Sorry if you brought it up in the video, I’ve only just started watching it
As a SM player I hate to be connected to this and I think GW have no idea what they are doing. Though it is nice that new stuff is coming out for Xenos.
100% spoiled, but they're the poster faction. Also don't feel like an elite army pricewise, probably because we've got a jillion units and the new option is often the better one (termies & devastators are barely holding on, RIP tac squads)
they sell far better than any other faction, period. And dont give me "oh but if only they put that love into MY favorite faction they would totally beat sm". SM have been the driving force behind 40k since its inception, and have since 1e been by far the best selling faction. They look cool, are easy to paint, have good lore, and gw can make one mold that works for all the SM factions. The player base of SW or BA alone dwarfs most other factions and most of the models used in those armies are generic SM ones. People complain about "Primaris char #12314" but they make those ktis cause people buy them
@@nukethenatelore So do the other factions, they all look cool, aren't impossible to paint, not to an unreasonable degree, and what little they have in lore is awsome. So no, I see ZERO reasons for neglecting the other factions to the insulting level that GW does. Let me ask would you be upset like a raging toddler if the other factions started getting about as much love and updates as the space marines get PER faction do now?
I can't relate to the nearly immortal super soldier fighting daemons from hell with magic but I sure as hell can relate to the guy behind a machine gun shitting himself because a bug the size of a mansion just ripped a tank in half in front of him
@@pancreasnowork9939 don't take it as me hating but Ciaphas Cain is more human than the No Fear space marine. I enjoy them appearing in the story or especially in a game but Guardsmen I just infinitely prefer as they are a bit more human in their reactions. Now Sigmarines...I really have trouble with them. EDIT I misinterpreted PancreasNoWork tone with the above reply...oops.
@@pancreasnowork9939 The most relatable character I ever encountered in any book (not just Warhammer) was from the Gaunt's Ghosts series. Try-Again Bragg. He's tall, he has a deep voice, and he is a bit socially awkward. So everyone assumes he's a moron, even though he's actually pretty smart. I feel like that represents myself rather well, personally. That's part of why the Gaunt's Ghosts series is so great - there are so many characters and they're all so distinct. Most of them feel like people that could exist in real-life, and chances are, anyone who reads it is going to find at least one character that resonates them.
You could kind of kill two birds with one stone if there was a Xenos focused book that basically featured Space Marines in the "final boss" sort of role in the story. Say a small group of craftworlders are on a mission to retrieve a stash of lost soulstones in the midst of a battlefield full of Orks and guardsmen. The craftworlders manage to mostly stay under the radar, but end up icing a couple of Imperial officers to stay incognito. Their absence gets noted, and a squad of marines in the area gets diverted to investigate. The craftworlders stay out of their way at first, but then the unthinkable happens. The armored brutes find the soulstones first. Every second they hold them is a second that risks the loss of such precious artifacts, so the craftworlders decide to neutralize the threat. They are too few to face the marines head to head, so the climax of the book could be them slowly isolating the marines through trickery and picking them off one at a time. A few close calls later, the stones are recovered, the horrible foes slain, and diplomacy was never even attempted because fuck you why would we be sensible? You could even end things with the Eldar evacuating the planet, supremely satisfied with their mission, while the imperial forces below are overwhelmed by the orks without their commanders or marine backup. Xenos look cool, marines are shown getting outplayed, and the darkness is grim.
"A few close calls later, the stones are recovered, the horrible foes slain, and diplomacy was never even attempted because fuck you why would we be sensible?" To be fair: The Imperium has shown itself, time and time again, to be untrustworthy, genocidal maniacs, and that's why Eldar started backstabbing in return.
My friend I have fantastic news for you. Read “Twice Dead King: Ruin” and the sequel. It’s a book about Necrons and a blood angels successor chapter plays a huge role in it as antagonists.
It only would be grimdark if in the end the group would ultimately fail due to ork interference. Or at least get seriously maimed by the greenskins. That would also make the Orks look dangerous af.
What would make it even more Grimdark is the Orks take the planet, a War boss unites them into a Waaagh!, then the the Waaagh! eventually makes it's way to the Craftoworl and either outright destroys it, or causes an immense amount of damage. Including destroying more Soul stones then what they gained.
@@Psychoangel-d23 I disagree. Showing one side be entirely unconcerned with the utter destruction of another, especially due to their own callous actions, is a much better display of darkness than the usual “haha everyone dies because grim” that so many “mature” stories run with.
I'm of the opinion that every faction should have a creative team dedicated to it that writes lore, makes art, and designs models to be printed so that no faction is left in the dust, and sub factions could get that list treatment with the A. Ultramarines B. Blood Angels C. Salamanders and so on that way noone gets left in the dust on releases and everyone gets to feel like their faction matters and they have a path to victory, everyone has people rooting for them in GW. Maybe if the Tau had their own team wed finally start seeing the auxiliaries, and if the eldar had a creative team we might actually start seeing some models for the ynnari like the Corsairs and Harlequins.
There's the problem of all the teams going "I'm the main character here" so you'd need a neutral team who could Cadia people at random so none get too big for their boots
The best way for this to work is each team being in good contact and communication with each other in case certain things overlap or what the current situation of each story is in.
@@GenericProtagonist118 actually that could lead to really cool stories of forces clashing or teaming up against a bigger threat if they did communicate great
i kinda dislike the fact that they always say that most space marine chapters don't go beyond 1k marines but in most arts the space marines always have a thousand dudes of the same chapter deployed, kinda wish there where more small and focused chapters, instead of ¨ultramarines but with different strategy/different color¨
(maybe) the reason for having artworks like that is that you can have more than 1000 marines if you are on crusade, and Space Marine chapters are on crusade quite a lot
I'm building a full chapter at the moment, if you go by the lore there honestly have to be 1400 space marines & scouts at any given time for the force organization to make sense. The techmarines, apothecarium & chaplaincy have combined 30 marines at codex compliancy which makes literally 0 sense given the scale of what a chapter does
Yes.... YEEES Ive written my scion regiment actually saved my marine chapter from extinction and that the scions were scary to the marines being saved (the scions though designed thier uniforms to strike fear, along with other traits in thier training)
@@skree272 I agree with that, my Space Marines, Guard Regiment, and Knight House are all from the same system, but they all work as branches of a single (doomed) force because they're hemmed in by Necrons, Chaos, and Tau (and probably some Orks, there's always some Orks) and that's taught them a bunch of harsh lessons about going off alone. E.g. the Marines' 5th Company are currently rebuilding because they were stubborn and got themselves trapped behind enemy lines without telling anyone, and it's only that the Guard happened to be engaging that same force and putting together an impromptu push to their location (at great personal cost to the Guard), that the few surviving Marines can say they're alive.
@@TripleBarrel06 yeah, my space marine chapter usually tries to keep casualties low on all sides, most definitely civillians, they would rather be burnt than let civillians die, however this causes them to take risks that end up with a sticky situation for the marines
Being saved by guard is uplifting but not a good idea. The marines usually shoe up when the guard is boned to unbone them. Having them get saved by guard when they tend to be shoving themselves into the hard to reach places of the enemy sounds weird.
@@basition I think that's moreso because it's what we're used to, even though it's probably not something we should be used to. The Guardsmen shouldn't be "the guys who get saved" when they're the closest in setting to modern day soldiers.
As an ork fan girl, the Beast series is also a space marine focused party. The Prophet of the Waaagh book is legit, tho. Need more of that, a grot pov is great.
Or another way to fix the lore is to show that yes the space marines are the best thing since water but they aren't enough. Yes they can single handily kick the fuck out of a race that does nothing but eat sleep and fight but its not enough. Have them go to a planet to win only to hear about the other 5 they didnt have enough time to get to fall to another faction. The imperiam biggest problem is fighting on top many fronts so show this.
This is overtly stated in the lore. There’s less than five hundred thousand space marines for over a billion imperial worlds. Space marines change any battlefield when they arrive, but they can’t be everywhere at once.
Reminding people that Space Marines are discount, made with cheaper parts Custodes might also help, so that Space Marines and everyone else can bond over their mutual impotence.
@@LordVader1094 you only see space marines in the battles they take part in. There are plenty that they don’t. I don’t really understand where you’re coming from here, because like I said it’s pretty overt in the lore. Do you want them to say it verbatim in every story?
The saddest thing is that there’s so much potential to explore space marines’ weaknesses against other factions. I would love to read about a battle between Space Wolves and the T’au where the Wolves get absolutely annihilated before they even make eye contact with the T’au, hundreds of rockets and lasers completely destroying the Marines. Or Imperial Fists getting ambushed by the Dark Eldar, completely unable to set up defensive positions, disorganized and slowly being picked off one by one by lightning fast strikes and horrible monsters. Show us the weak parts, if Space Marines are to lose, don’t make it a brave last stand where the victor takes a lot of damage, give me a crushing and demoralizing defeat! Great vid as always, and you already know I’m flexing my emote
It's like I said, I don't hate the Space Marines. They're awesome. Just so overexposed and overhyped that they can't help but develop some bad feelings.
The key to getting xenos books to ensure the good authors get their hands on them, infinite and the divine is beloved and you can bet your ass necrons will get more love because of that success. Eldar as of recent had the ynnari books that were cancelled, and while everyone felt bad for eldar that they got cancelled, I look to eldar players to see them celebrating because they thought they were shit. Beast arises had a decent start but fell off in quality part way through. We need good writers on xenos books and enough consistent quality in series for them that they won't either be dropped or only have half decent series you'll only read half the entries for.
As an eldar player, the ynnari series was painfully bad. Firstly, just as a critique of the writing. All the characters were flat, there were some pretty egregious cases of telling instead of showing, most of the books was boring drudgery, and it was very rarely ever satisfying. From a note in universe perspective, the eldar are written horribly and not like eldar at all. The power scales are all wrong, they act in ways you’d almost never see eldar acting, and it finishes by accomplishing and changing nothing :)
@@nathanieleck1023 I always felt like the Eldar books where good at creating a setting but bad at telling a story in that environment. The three path books where meh plot wise but the details and descriptions where imo really interesting. First Ynnari book ( I think?) with the geanstealers jumped from ok to badass to utter trash. I feel like having more than 1 author would help in that regard
The Space Wolves thing is funny, Fenris canonically got a minuscle population (3 million top), Magnus wrecked the place, yet, surprise, Primaris solve the problem. It would be good to see the Wolves having to make new recruitment in other planets as well as actually stepping down from their mountains to help the population, reinforcements can only help so much if the population is now too small to actually sustain the chapter.
The only meaningful space marine loss I can think of is that time the blood ravens lost half their chapter at Kaurava. But even then they rebuilt by the time of dawn of war 3 so it doesn’t really matter too much, even though it did lead to dawn of war 2s whole campaign
SPOILERS TO THE EISENHORN SERIES It's not a fully explored defeat, but in the eisenhorn series, more specifically Mallus, there's an entire chapter during the parade when the terrorist attack happens, and not only we see more than one marine dying horribly, but they fail to do anything meaningful and are by far not the focus.
One of the problems I can think of when releasing Space Marines every single week for the Tabletop is the fact that by neglecting other factions, people beginning don't want to move onto/try out the others because in a literal week more Space Marine stuff will come out for them. If GW gave more models and lore to the other factions, whether its Imp Guard, Mechanicus, Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, etc consistently then more people would be interested in giving them a shot. Hell, Chaos doesn't even receive nearly the same amount of love as Space Marines and they are suppose to be the biggest threat to the Imperium. Really tho, it just annoys me with how often I see Space Marine vs Space Marine games because its the only faction people want to try and play.
Not only that, but Space Marines have so many models, they cover almost every playstyle a player might want to run, with the exception of horde. Most other armies have, to some degree, an amount of specialization, even if each army has a couple different "modes". Tyranids have hordes, big monsters, and psychic spam. Eldar have psychic spam and speed, but are also glass cannons. Etc, etc. But Space Marines can do basically everything, with the right list. As such, a person who started with Space Marines has the choice of either spending a bunch of money to build a whole new army to test out a different playstyle...or they can spend comparatively less, adding a few units to their existing Space Marine force. Allowing them to try out different strategies at minimal expense and much faster. When you create an army that's so versatile, you encourage players to never leave that army.
@@Bluecho4 Thousand Sons only have 5 units they can field for a pure Thousand Sons army. They might eventually get the Infernal Master as a 6th unit if they sell him as a separate box from the terrible combat patrol.
Space Marines are great and should very much continue being the face of the game, but no ones ever going to branch out if the other options clearly get less love and you can only buy so many space marines.
@@tzeentchlordoffates9268 To be fair, that's entirely because of the way the cult legions work. As much as we Chaos players like to pretend otherwise, the Death Guard and Thousand Sons aren't REALLY their own factions. They're Chaos Marine sub-factions with their own codices. Functionally, they're not all that different from the Space Marine codex supplements.
Actually where DID most of the guard go? we had the mongolian style roughriders. The oddly american US marine in dress uniform looking mordian iron guard. The krieg who are thankfully making a comeback (The steel legion was krieg lite so that could be fixed with paint jobs.) We dont have most of them anymore. Like what about the Elysian drop troopers and there ODST style? Or the voystrian firstborn Looking right out steampunk russia? The valhallens are famous thanks to caiphas cains novels but do they get any model love? NOPE. Or how about yeah THE TALLAREN DESERT RADIERS! I want my army of space mujaheddin wearing guard issue shemaghs with lasguns that have curved mags like AKs. I Like space marines. But I would never deny GW has NO love for any other faction in 40k as anything other then bolter fodder (xenos and choas) or background filler (the rest of the imperium)
@@dogshake Space Marine appearances don't differ as drastically as Guard appearances. Look at two chapters side-by-side. Then do the same with the guard. Who looks more different?
That’s because cannon fodder is always cannon fodder no matter how you dress them up. It doesn’t matter what the specialties of different IG regiments have. In the end they all die in colossal numbers while waiting for the Space Marines to show up and do all the heavy lifting.
One of the reasons I fell in love with the Crimson Fists is they've always been the underdogs. They got aced in their main book and reduced to a barely functioning amount. Every death was a major loss and the Orks were absolutely winning Rynn's World. By the end, when a Fist showed up, it was mostly to keep up morale amongst the normal humans during a losing war. The CFs didn't really win the war on their own either, instead having to bet everything on a small move so the Imperium could save their planet. Of course, with the introduction of the Primaris instant-fixing the chapter, everything that made the CFs interesting was thrown out the window. They're no longer a Chapter with some of the smallest numbers, refusing to give in no matter the odds. Now they're just another chapter in dark blue.
Honestly its always been my biggest pet pieave HOW primaris were introduced more than their introduction. It was Cawl taking Corax's failed Raptor project and making new marines on his on initiative just some secret plot from Gman that could have bailed the Imperium out and any point before now. It wasn't a slow move to accepting them across the stubborn first born chapters and imbalance of first born elitism or pride against primaries ego and naivete.
See this is why making the Primaris just an upgrade kit (in universe) that Cawl unleashed at Gulliman's command for regular Space Marines would have been a better idea to roll with. You miss out on the 'new vs old' angle, but you gain so much for it.
Spot on for the table, any release that isn't SM is a win. I don't care who gets it, anything that's new adds to to the table looking even better. Lore, I want to see Black templar get humbled by Word Bearers in an epic "that's a nice book you got there...would be a shame if some one revealed its origins"...I'm not biased you're biased😆
I would be so happy if the word bearers did that to one of the religious chapters. "Hey bud, I see you worship the God-Emperor...you know who wrote that fancy book of yours?"
I don't play 40k. Never bought any of the merch and never will. I just like world building stories and your videos about the 40k world is great. You care about it and it shows. Keep up the good work ogre man.
@@snowgeese7292 Never pained or had anything at all to do with the game. I just work a physical job and like epic world building stories to listen to as I work.
My small town got its first game store in years, and it's first store that's ever sold Warhammer 3 months ago. According to the owner, in a town where almost no one knows what Warhammer is, the most popular races have been Orks and Necrons, with the 2 Imperial Knights he was given also selling as well. Space Marines, Adeptus Mechanics, and Imperial Guard have basically moved nothing in that time. The funniest thing about this is that since the store is so new, the one big order of stock they put in for was apparently hand picked by Games Workshop themselves, who tries to provide this fledgling store with their "best sellers", which was essentially 2x the number of Space Marine kits than any other.
Just goes to show how silly they are, Honestly corporations in general don't think. It's the same with 711 and their shit policies that ignore all the nuanced details of a location or even any data. Relating that back to GW and its easy to see how clear community backed wishes and ideas are backlogged to shove more SM content down our throats. Like, I am a Space Marine player, Dark Angels, and even I think its too much to the point of annoyance. Not hard to see how Eldar players especially have the right to complain.
@@Noble6Espeo It's ridiculous. All the vehicles they picked for them were Imperial too, besides one (1!) small Death Guard tank. There are two (2!) bastard Land Raiders that have been sitting on the shelves for months. I'm considering just buying one, painting it red and sticking a bunch of razor blades to it to make it a roight propa loota.
Personnally I love the Space Marines, but, I also love the Imperial Guard, and to my little knowledge of the WH40K lore (because I didn’t read any WH40K novel), the guard is always described as a weak army who is holding the Imperium upright only because of the number of soldiers and regiments available, and who is always saved because of the providential arrival of the SM. And I think that, as a solution against SM over-rating, writting a novel, telling the story of an Imperial Guard regiment defending and winning against a powerful enemy (preferably in my opinion Chaos Space Marines) alone and without the help of loyalists SM or another Imperial faction would be super cool. It will show how the SM are rare and sometimes absents when needed in the galaxy and show the guard as a good army capable of defending the Imperium not only because they got the astartes on their side but also because the guard is actually mighty, and most important : useful.
I mean you kinda right, the concessus is that they're weak but in lore IG are elite, picture irl US Marines, and their even more elite Tempestus Scions are Special Forces among them. There are many cool stories and guar regiments outside the big ones that get shit done and have good wins but its subsumed by that mass amounts of "and the guard held long enough for chapter blank to cripple the enemy and fuck off"
This happens often in the Ciaphas Cain and Gaunt's Ghosts novels. In fact out of all the Cain novels I've read (7? I think so far), not a single space marine appeared in any of them. I've only read the first Gaunt novel and that was the case as well. Even better is that Cain's regiment is Valhallan and Gaunt's is Tanith, which is cool imo as it's good to see non-Cadians being the focus.
The issue is that the guard is not a weak army in on itself. It is actually pretty strong. The problem is that it is weak COMPARED TO EVERYTHING ELSE. The lore states that the IG would probably wipe the floor with any of earth's modern militaries or even one of the major factions of the WH40K universe, but not all at the same time. So there are 2 interpretations of the weak aspect: they are actually OP but everyone else is way more OP than them; and they use flashlights for guns. Guess which interpretation GW went with?
@@javieraravena5345 not even everything else. Traitor guardsmen are worse than the IG, and the IG can probably hold their ground against medium ork armies and smaller tyranid fleets. They being wrecked by Eldar psykers or their lasguns bouncing off a necron are justified, their lasguns being placeholders for a "I am literally a walking, talking unit of time until the marines arrive" sign is not
legit about the books. someone in another vid was like "i shoudl go read up on the tau" and i comment "good fuckin luck. there's all of five books on them that i know of and 2 of them are STILL half about the space marines. i'd LOVE to know why a book called FIRE WARRIOR is read half from teh perspective of a space marine." and also here's literally the ENTIRETY of imperium lore it's 3 things "the guard are losing a battle" "an inquisitor fucked up and blew up a planet" and "the space marines showed up, and then everytihng fucking died no matter how outnumbered they were"
As someone who thinks that the space wolves are the most try hard, edgelord, viking wannabe fan fic faction in 40k I am fully down for them just getting wiped out
I'm not sure who decided to go all in on the Wolf part of the Space Wolves but turning Vikings in space into werewolves in space is a leap that I can't quite understand.
If they went more in the viking direction and less autistic wolves in space theme, I'd like them alot more but honestly I can't find myself caring what happens to them rn
@@john46525 Honestly yeah. I heard a headcannon thing that honestly is the only thing that keep them even palletable in my head, that all the times you hear wolf are Imperial archivists not having a clean translation for a nuanced fenrisian term. It's just sad because they have the potential to be a Chapter brim full with culture and definition but just became the wolf boys because why lean into vikings as hard as ultramarines leaned to romans when you can spam "wolf"
@@Noble6Espeo the roman theme is honestly the only thing keeping me on board with the Ultramarine. The poet thing to do is have Ultramar fragment and fall apart like the irl Roman empire boom they're now underdogs barely keeping it together.
I would honestly love to see a few books where the space marines get the snot beat out of them, or yeah, maybe something happens to another xenos faction . necrons were allowed to get the silent king back, space marines get guilliman back, yet eldar get nothing because fuck the eldar. maybe the tau actually carve out a decently sized empire, cementing the fact the imperium has basically lost it's chance to wipe them out.
Thing is? I'd love to see some of the things you mentioned, and I've been saying to my friends for years how great it would be. Don't just give us a War in Heaven book series; start with Szarekh's ascension to power as the silent king, Necron Politics are game of thrones-y enough that it would be really cool to read. After that, have some books detailing the Necrons first attempt at sticking it to the old ones; it failed. Miserably. You can then have a book in much the same vein as the Horus Rising trilogy, having the Deciever giving the necrons immortality. You could bring back characters like Trazyn and Orikan, at the beginning of their personal fued. Go through the war, cover how the necrons have basically won, having driven the Old ones to extinction and ran off the eldar to the edge of the galaxy. The orks are still around, of course, but only because they're ... well, orks. Or Kroks in this case. You could have a whole slew of books detailing how the Necrons betray the C'tan, hell, having a book covering how the Flayer is outright KILLED rather than shattered like the rest of them would be awsome. Then there could be a somber end to the story when Szerekh has almost everyone go to sleep, and then straight up leaves the galaxy. And all of this is JUST from the Necron side. There's still the Eldar, Orks, and Old ones, as well as whatever GW could manage to cook up.
Theres a really cool series for the Necrons called "the twice dead: ruin" and then also Reign. If you enjoyed infinite and divine you'll surely enjoy that one as well
As of your comment on the Horus heresy not feeling apocalyptic. I'd request for you to listen or read the fury of Magnus. Genuinely shows how demolished Terra was midway into the seige. And emperor knows what it looked like during it's later stages.
I don't dislike them. I hate the fact that their the face of the entire franchise. I wanna see more Sisters of War, Guardsmen, Tau, and Aeldar Comics, Books, Animated Films, Video Games. I wanna see a story of a regular Citizen of the Imperium going from a regular depressed guy to someone who goes thru all the magnificent & horrible stuff in the 40k Universe and becomes a major character. I wanna see another Human Faction as powerful as the Imperium or Tau. I just wanna see something other then Space Marines. The problem is that if Games Workshop does do this, the Fandom would complain like stupid baby bitches and send them death threats like always
Space Marines are the most popular, not because GW wants them, but because they just ARE. People don't hate space marines, angry people online hate space marines.
@@danitron4096 I'm fairly certain that people who hate them online hate them in real life too, chief. But really, the Marines need to either have their popularity lowered or the other factions need to have the same popularity. Show T'au allied Guardsmen fighting against a force of Eldar Exodites. Do OTHER stuff to show how it's not just Space Catholics versus everything else and the kitchen sink.
I actually had a idea that probably a good way to fix the problem tabletop wise is to probably do a new edition starter set where space marines arent in it
Or at the very least, make it so those limited edition box sets with the two armies facing off just become regular products you can buy. You don't need to have only one starter box.
Agree 100% with this video. Kinda funny how I ended up going Raven Guard when it came to building an army due to Istavaan, but that is still Horus Heresy lore so that doesn't count. Still funny how that made them more likable to me and directly as your point stated, the SM getting some L's would make them more likable.
Yeah some reasaonable L's make a faction all the better. I'm a Dark Angels fan a player who generally dislikes the blood angels and ultramarines because they vaunted as so perfect. Meanwhile I will 100% make exceptions and say that I love Lamenters and Celestial Lions because they lost and got their shit kicked in before dying or regrouping. Even if the chapter is left struggling and rebuilding to keep model sales, losses and meaningful ones are important. another good example is Raven Guard and Imperial Fists. First born like the others I mentioned but they have had their asses beat before spitting out blood and going for round 2 in a way ultramarines and blood angles, until the devastation of ball, rarely do. Hell to me the most metal things Blood Angles ever did was renegades and loyalist chapters across the entire lineage coming to defend Baal because they were *losing and losing badly*
I'm a big lore fiend who just came to this video off the back of Lutiens new Octarius war part 2 lore video. There was a story there that exemplifies my problem with he space Marines right now lore wise. There was this genuinely fun tale about a forge world, one that was being attacked in alternation by Orks and Tyranid. Until both committed to an attack at the same time and started this desperate three way brawl. It was genuinely interesting listening to the horrors of the imperium being broken down as two different xenos battled for scraps in some chaotic mess. The interplay of Orks and Tyranid fighting over the scraps of a dying world, with the genuine drama of the Adpetus Mechanicus weighing the option of burrying its sacred knowledge and going scorched earth on the planet. But then the Black Templar showed up. And I could physically feel the energy get sucked out of the story. To Lutiens credit he delivered it as brilliantly as he always does, but I already knew how events would now play out, because it has over... And over again. -Space Marines show up -Space Marines push back filthy Xenos -Filthy Xenos unveil new super weapon and turn the tide for the killing blow by surprise! -Space Marines have a deul with xenos leader, narrowly win, and repel the attack at 'great cost'. Sure enough, verbatim, that was what happened and I was immediately sucked out of what was otherwise a good story. Later there was a story that was an interesting one to me, detailing the never ending cyclical rivalry of the Swarmlord and Ork Overfiend, and how they're trapped in a cycle of adapting and killing one another, and that was genuinely cool, because the space Marines didn't get involved, and as a result I didn't know where the story was going until the very end. That's the problem with Space Marines to me, I still love them and Black Templar remain my favorite chapter. So why does them showing up suck out the energy of a story? Because it's *boring* I know how it's going to end, the tropes been done to death like it has in novel after novel. Space Marines make a story instantly boring and predictable to me. Just .. Let them lose or, something, so I can't predict a stories outcome the moment they show up.
I feel like some of the disdain for Space Marines comes from the whole Ultramarines Matt Ward days. The impeccable chapter that did some impossible things and still had enough Marines for the next wake adventure. Even have a Primarch. I think they should do a book where Calgar dies; he has been a round for a long time as shows that the ultramarine are not immortal. Then maybe make Cato Sicarius the new chapter master but maybe he is coping from grief and ends mentorship, showing them to be more human ish. Some books that are cool for space Marines enjoyed, which have them lose or at least kind of a stalemate, is the Silent Hunters. A Space Sharks book, but it's not a massive war. Obviously, these few Marines clap a lot of cheeks, but that are kinda smart about it. Space Marines are never going ti leave the knight. But I think if people just read more of the other eaces books thyr will take notice. 1 more book recommendation - Twice Dead King series. It's about Necrons and Flayers, and it's like shakespearian tragedy but robo Egyptians. It's going to be a 3 book series. Currently 2 are out, Ruin and Reign.
Honestly, with the Infinite and the Divine and the Twice Dead King books, Necrons are in pretty good shape right now. I never expected them to get not only 1, but 3 pretty good books, but they made me a necron fan, which I never actually expected to happen, as even though the Necrons and Eldar were how I found out about 40k, the Necrons never really interested me before I read these.
There was also the one chapter called The Invaders who took out a whole ass Eldar Craftworld. Granted, it was already weakened, but that shouldn't have been possible for a single chapter to do.
You could do an Fall of the Eldar book that's similar to 2004 Battlestar Galactica, constantly on the run with enemies hunting them down, looking for a safe harbour with every lost battle meaning a loss of resources they can't get back. I think people would love it. Plus you could flesh out Great crusade factions like the Rangdan, Laer cults or Fra'el as the the main bad guys looking to exploit the fleeing, weakened craftworld
I gotta say as a Necron player I feel this so hard, but also i love that my space marines are an exception to your lore rule in that every time the Imperial Fists show up the chapter gets almost entirely wiped out. Also you can't have a War in Heaven arc because where would the space marines be? It would make the Necrons and Eldar too cool.
The craziest moment is seeing a picture of some Space Marines versus Eldar in a codex and realizing “those are new space marine UNITS versus the same old Eldar unit that’s been on the shelves for 20 years.” It isn’t just that Marines are getting new models to replace the old ones. It’s that they’re getting new units full stop. Meanwhile, everyone else is waiting to become the antagonists of the next edition to get new units or updated models.
Personally I also really dislike that 90% of their characters are always like "ahhh brother this", "ahh, heretic that". They are always saying the same crap. "Purge all xenos" said captain suckadickus of the Golden Urinal chapter. "Indeed, brother. May the emperor smile upon us" answered lieutenant Yodus Ketaminent. "Throne, have you seen my keys? I think I have dropped them here. Curses on the heretics." Suddenly said sergeant Smallius Dik. It ends up being annoying.
I mean there is more character than that amongst marines but the biggest issue is its not promoted and shown among the sea of Ultramarines and Black Templars. Sure Dark Angels hate xenos and imperial fists orcs, but DA are still hard into the imperial truth and clash with the others a lot with their duty before everything mentality. White Scars are even more jarring and interesting with their views and methods but they all get subsumed into the overwhelming view of "religious super soldier"
@@Noble6Espeo no, like, I get it. I like factions like White Scars, Salamanders and (sometimes, when the writer is not an idiot) Space Wolves. But it is very annoying when I am reading a very interesting book about the Night Lords and the Space Marines or the Blood Angels just skidaddle into the setting spouting the same crap. It is a pity, I really like Guilliman, but his faction gives me stomach ache sometimes.
@@Shkrie well bud the same logic can be applied with other genres too, for example star wars, alot of Sith Lords act high and mighty and even incompetent, not to mention always having such huge egos. Not saying all are. But it just so happens to be a thing too much. The point is space marines are supposed to be intimating and also full of wisdom too, but are sometimes religious.
@@vothbetilia4862 yeah, i understand. But my point is that they are usually characterized pumping the religion factor to eleven, thus making it their only character trait. It's not just "sometimes religious" like you say, it's giving a very interesting faction the deepness of a sheet of paper. That is my problem.
I said before that the Eldar are the Security Chief Warf of 40k. Constant lip-service paid to their incredible potency, so whenever you need to show off that a new character is extra cool you have them beat an Eldar. One of my things is that the Black Templar constantly go on crusade, seemingly ignoring the fact that the crusades all failed.
Totally agree. Sadly while Worf eventually got chances to be more badass in DS9 and First Contact, the Eldar have never been able to advance past this stage. The wankery of the Space Marines and the general usage of the "Humanity Speshul!" trope in Warhammer 40k is one of the reasons I find it difficult to get into compared to Warhammer Fantasy (which generally balanced its races better, though the Empire, Dwarfs and High Elves certainly got a majority of novels), though that's just an opinion.
My biggest issue with the Marines is that they’re… kind of boring. Most chapters are just kind of disconnected from the actual population of the imperium, to the point where all the talk of fighting for humanity is kind of hollow. Marines almost by definition don’t have lives outside of being warriors. They don’t have families, they don’t have ambitions beyond martial prowess, and they don’t often interact with people who do. I think that’s part of why marine losses often don’t feel very impactful. When guardsmen die, it’s a tragedy. When marines die, it’s a glorious culmination of their lives as purpose-crafted warriors. There’s a few exceptions, like the ultramarines, but even they are the stand-outs simply by virtue of like, caring about *humanity* instead of just *the imperium*.
To add a bit on that, was even saying to myself a few day's ago "Is the Imperium really losing? Cause sure you say they are but they do seem to only win. Even with the whole 'great cost' shtick, just kinda makes it not very believable to me at least. Great video, can't wait to see more from you, you're fantastic!
I’m completely a space marine lover. And I agree with you. There needs to be a lot more for everyone else. While I love my marines to death I definitely do have like 3 times more toys to play with than the next 3 most numerous factions. I can sit around for a few years while everyone plays catch up.
7:39 With the Tau I think they actually get a fair amount of attention from Black Library compared to other none imperial factions. The Rogue Trader series was about the Imperium discovering and fighting the Tau during the Damocles Gulf Crusade, they were fighting extremely evenly against the Imperium in Blades of Damocles, the Farsight novels kick total ass and hell War of Secrets was just a Tau book with Dark Angel Camouflage. The only thing I could possibly ask for when it comes to Tau is books having them fight factions that *aren't* the Imperium or Orks. What about Eldar, Dark Eldar- hell I don't think I've ever seen a Tau novel where they fight the Tyranids even though thats a major reason why the Imperium decided to keep them around so they could act as a buffer.
The Tau hate the dark eldar. There’s a story where the DE eldar help the Tau against Tyranids. The grateful Tau Agree to send some folks as “cultural exchange”… yada yada … an entire Tau world is abducted.
There are 4 main "tau" books all focused on Farsight. 2 anthology books that have a combine 2 stories in it focused on tau. There are 3 main title necron books 1 which is on the way. Eldar have over 11, orks have 6. This is only counting where there main protagonist is that species and they're not the villain of the week for the imperium.
@@gregorde To be fair... _everyone_ hates the Dark Eldar (although calling them 'Dark Eldar' is misleading - we should probably be calling the Craftworld Eldar the "Goody-two-shoes Eldar", or something, since they were the exception in Eldar culture pre-Slaanesh 🤷♂️)
I honestly want to see books about the t'au's gue'vesa or humans that joined, born into or were annexed by these them. Maybe a series of novels that go into detail of the lives and perspectives of roughly three gue'vesa characters. Imagine one that's follows the life of a guardsman whose unit was captured by the t'au and were given the opportunity to serve and seeing as their commisar had...conveniently *'died in battle'* decided to take them up on that offer. Another could be about charaters who are generations removed from Imperium rule, having lived under the t'au's influence their whole lives, what's it like to be raised under an ideology from another species. And finally some books about similar born and raised gue'vesa maybe a character for both of the t'au empires OG and Farsight's respectively that's undergoing their first war campaigns, ideally against Imperium worlds and seeing the otherside, seeing fellow humans that have been raised to hate the xenos and the heretics that they and their t'au comrades are to them, maybe try to convince them otherwise with mixed results. Also I want a coupl books about a badass gue'vesa commander and his t'au and kroot friends as they find themselves in the employe of an especially eccentric rogue trader.
I find the space wolves the most relatable and human chapter of them all, there stories are very nicely written and there the only chapter to give the middle finger to the inquisition and have the balls to stand up to them when a whinny inquisitor doesn’t get to genocide the people of Armageddon, there charcters are quite distinct from the wise beyond years bjorn the fell handed to the benevolent yet brutal leader Logan grimnar to the brazen and brash krom dragon gaze, the shitposter Lukas the trickster to the quick learning young hero of Ragnar blackmane, the only people that don’t like the wolves are the ones who have never read there stories, don’t judge a book by its cover because these guys are one of the best marine chapter out there.
The Space Wolves telling the Inquisition to get bent is cool, but the entirety of the rest of the Months of Shame is some of the most brainless lore ever written for 40k. The Grey Knights in general have arguably the worst-written, most nonsensical, least intelligent lore in the entire setting - and certainly not dumb in a deliberate fun way like the Orks.
This is why I'll always give Nick Kyme his flowers, because he actually lets the Salamanders in 40k lose and lose hard. His last book that wasn't Horus Heresy came out a decade ago, but BOTH groups of Salamanders the story follows fail at their missions. Yet, some of the characters do succeed in small, personal ways - Captain Agatone gives up on his mission but saves a very interesting human who he ends up taking back home. An adopted ex-Black Dragon and a Techmarine who start off hating each other are brothers through and through by the end. An old and anxious Captain finds a new purpose in life after he's betrayed, swearing revenge on the Sisters of Battle as his destroyed body is dragged off the battlefield. That is what I want more of when it comes to the Space Marines. Hurt the chapters more. Heal the characters more. Also, more imperium vs imperium conflict!
One thing about the Tau origin is that it’s heavily implied to be distorted in myth to give the Ethereals validity. I think the War in Heaven is way more important to flesh out, but as a Tau fan, I would love to see that part of history revealed to be far different from what the modern Tau know.
More interesting would be if the Etherals lied on it not for the sake of power or anything like that, but distorting history soley for the greater good of all beings
@@calebbarnhouse496 "Look, we can't tell them the truth. If we did, the Empire shatters and while the common caste on the street doesn't know how bad the Galaxy is, We do. Do we need to know the truth? Yes, without it we cannot see how far we have to go for the Greater Good sometimes. Does anyone, literally anyone outside the chroniclers of our caste need to know? No. I'd say most among our own caste can not know it, lest it slip out. We must keep such knowledge to the Enlightened ones only." - Tau Ethereal if GW cared to write them better, speaking on the truth of how the Tau united. Now if that sounds awfully familiar to the reasons behind [Redacted by order of the Inquisition] to you? Good. You have been paying attention.
@Sorain1 which would make the tau dark in a way that is perfect for them, they don't have to have a very inconsistent rule set of how much control the ethereal have, and it allows the ethereals to have A skeleton in there closet while remaining actual contrasts to how the tau work, If you've ever played 40k Gladius tau story you'd see in that game they treat the ethereal control like way blatant mind control to the point where your guy wants to help his freind/lady that likes him romantically rebel, but instead swaps a switch that kills all of there auxiliary forces on the planet as well as everyone else
@@calebbarnhouse496 Yeah, I really, REALLY disliked the way that was setup. Tau works best as a contrast to the rest and a sort of 'throwback to what the Imperium was during the Great Crusade' faction. The Ethereals doing straight up mind control just doesn't work as well as having a very careful watch for deviance, solid charisma, a broadly applicable world view to sell... and some shady skeletons in their closet that causes internal issues within their caste. The parallel of 'redacting stuff to protect the people' would work nicely and let people consider that the Inquisition likely started out that way too and we know where that lead. Tau's position thematically should be the rising power that rhymes with humanity's own rise in the past. That includes the specter that they could end up going the way of pre age of strife humanity or full on Imperium level evil as they have to face the horrors of 40k's setting and make the same hard choices about dealing with it.
i mean you think about it, tau would be perfect for novels, they're the underdogs of the setting, and they're new so they're good for newcomers as an audience surrogate to the horrors of the galaxy
Because every faction that isn't Space Marines feels like it only exists to give Space Marines someone cool to fight against, or as a faction for the space marines to save.
I just think they're extremely overexposed for how vanilla they are. The most interesting thing about space marines is the process of becoming a space marine. Once you get past that literally every other imperium faction (and even the chaos marines) is more interesting, flavorful, and unique than space marines.
I think there is alot of flavor in the marines but they never get a light exposed to them (relative to the exposure the vanilla boys get). Like Ultramarines and all their successors are great, kinda, but where I the love for the Carcaridons, Minitours, Unforgiven Dark Angel shinnanigans, Imperial Fist stubbornness, etc. There are so many chapter with interesting character that just get washed out in favor of UM or don't have their most interesting points explored in favor of their niche materials. Like Where are all the books about White Scars and Ravenguard or the clash between the chapters still into the Imperial Truth vs the wider imperium? And where did all the Guard flavor go while we're at it?
I remember reading a halo book where the first chapter was about 300 Spartans where sent to on a mission and only like 2 of em survived. Seeing how op these Spartans are and that many died in just the initial assault makes it depressing because no matter how good they were a couple of well placed attacks will decimate the enemy. If they did something like that for space marines it be cool to see
@@danklord4315 There were two operations, each consisting of 300 deployed S-III's, all were killed in the first mission (PROMETHEUS) and only 2 survivors walked away from the second (TORPEDO). There were another 300 S-III's that were intended for a third operation but they were never deployed iirc.
I’ve never played warhammer and only just recently started consuming 40k content. Stumbled across your channel via RUclips recommendations. I’m now several videos deep, mid binge and you’ve just earned a new subscriber.
My introduction to Warhammer was the Space Marine game. Love it. Then a buddy showed me fan animations like Astartes and I really liked em. Then I started watching lore videos and meme videos. Warhammer is really cool. I still have much to learn but I'm happy I'm here.
Space Marines are awesome, don't get me wrong. They're a fantastic part of the setting. They're just so overdone compared to everyone else in my opinion.
I remember that when I started getting into 40K as a kid, what struck me was how in the lore, space marines were close to invincible... and then you put them on the table, and sure, they are more powerful than their enemies on a 1v1 basis, but significant numbers of them still end up getting killed by stupid orks that they would have wiped the floor with in any book. I always thought that space marines should not have been a separate faction. There should be an Imperium faction, with mostly imperial guards, and you can deploy one or so unit of space marines, and they're absolutely overpowered. That would represent the lore much better.
From the perspective of being able to identify with the protagonists, the Imperial Guard make the most sense for a novel. The only difference between you and an Imperial Guardsman is that you haven't signed on with them.
As someone with only a khorne army I definitely have seen the favoritism. Cuz for all the chaos gods it's like "you get 5 units, best I can do". And due to the lack of the units working well together the best strategy is to just mass bloodletters. Please give chaos some more variety. It's cool what we got but I know there is room for so much more. For instance for khorne, the skull cannon/throne is exactly the sort of aesthetic you could run with. More forgeborn constructs to bring into battle. I mean I guess we have the cool dark mechanicus stuff that's khornate but like give me more stuff my daemons can ride in on. And for that matter just give me some names daemons and lore on them. Give me more stories like Tuska the daemon Killa. Because this is exactly the aesthetic of khorne. He should have great champions from all myriad of races and times.
The only stories I can think of where Marines get their shit pushed in is the Fall of Damnos where the Ultras get overrun by Necrons, or the Devestation of Baal where, let's face it, a bunch of faceless Blood Angel successors died and old man Dante lived after fighting a Swarm lord.
Problems with Space marines: -for a supposedly super elite force they are everywhere in the lore and on the tabletop to the point where there are half a dozen variants of SM that are even more elite than regular marines -Them being all male is a stupid relic of 80s and 90s sci fi -Them being fearless is bad for the lore and the game. Lorewise it makes them difficult to empathize with or write since they don't experience things in a relatable way. Tabletop wise making roughly half the armies in the game immune to morale kinda invalidates the mechanic.
Storm of Iron is my favourite book (as my name would suggest) not only do the Imperial Fists lose (granted they don't contribute any significant numbers) but they lose hard once Hydra Cordatus falls.
In the time it took Eldar to get one partial range update space marines got at least two, new variants, and a relaunch. At the very least they make me not dislike the stormcasts as much as I probably would if they had a similar release schedule, not to mention not nearly as much plot armor
If you want marines from important chapters losing, there was the time Captain Sicarius of the Ultramarines actually got humiliated by the Tau. The Tau Commander even took the time to say to his face that he could easily tell his troops to snipe his apothecaries and destroy the geneseed they were collecting but he didn't do it because he believed in honor. He even threw in his face that the Ultramarines value courage and honor yet he hasn't seen any of it. Sicarius survived since they let him go but that was probably worse than killing him. Then there was the time he and his company got stuck in the warp with a half working gellar field in Knights of Macragge. It got so bad that they couldn't properly power their armor and weapons all the time. They had to make due with make shift spears and even go into battle without their armor against the hordes of daemons. Sicarius was so disturbed by it he had to get therapy from one of the serfs since his chaplain got killed. Now at the end of the book they did win but it came at a heavy cost. It was so bad that in the current time, Sicarius essentially has PTSD from the event since he still hears the screams of his men and remarks that he never thought Space Marines could die like that.
I just think that they need to lose some more like some major character deaths at the hands to make them seem more reasonable. I love space marines but man is it hard to see beyond the lore aspect of it.
Even as a space marine player I agree. Ultramarines got their Primarch back and basically have a Legion? Cool, kill of Calgar. He's useless and a reminder of the bullshit the UM pull every other day. Devestation of Baal? I like that story except for where primaries fixed everything. Wheres the story about how these newbies arent's stacking up to the firstborne they replaced?
So when I got back into 40k after an 8 years break, I was really interested in exploring what it would be like to be a common citizen of the imperium during a chaos invasion. It’s one thing to have hundreds of books and games devoted to the power fantasy of being a space marine, it’s another to have a much more relatable story about trying to make your way through the hardest life you could possibly have when suddenly your friends and family start getting ripped from the inside out by demons. And in your sheer terror, when all hope is lost, you see giant walking humans in armor coming to save you, draped in a religious and divine aura. In that moment the space marines would truly feel like the angels of death, coming to save you.
I maybe wrong. But wouldn't the player character be executed for knowing about/being in contact with chaos. The whole "tainted". Might make for a tragic ending. But I agree with you some more grounded stuff like you mentioned would be nice.
@@thecruzking Yeah I was just thinking a story like that would probably end with the marines purging the very people they were trying to save lol. Which fits 40k.
That’d be a very short story that ends in an extremely brutal death. Either by Chaos or the Space Marines since even seeing a Daemon makes you tainted and a major threat to the Imperium.
Imagine Magnus does some warp shenanigans to summon a hive fleet right next to Fenris. The nids reestablish synaptic control over the krakens and procede to absolutely wreck the place
Ohhhhh man another video. Thanks man,I really see a lot of progress and work with this. And I mean this with the most upmost respect when I say this, because I love your channel and Warhammer. But I also know you as well have a extended love for history like me and love getting to explain those moments. I recommend and I know it can't go wrong to get in touch with Lazerpig. I feel like your content would get a major boost and would produce a very very entertaining video. Thanks again, stay safe mate, we need these amazing videos thanks homie
theyre a bit overplayed. super ultra badasses can be cool but if theyre nearly always front and center the shine wears off, they stop being special, which is an unfortunate fate in its own way. i think there is a significant possibility that the primaris may have some kind of achilles heel, probably void dragon of mars related, which would need correcting, threatening the stability of marine chapters and damaging caul's credibility
Im glad to hear someone echoing a thought I thought I'd been going crazy for having. How is the imperium in a losing war when literally everything they do is win. I think that started sinking in around the psychic awakening, when space marines bomb the god of wizards to death, and a rando space wolf lobs off the head of the most powerful ork in the setting with no problem. also, the time Cato Sicarius and a small handful of ultramarines wiped out a entire tomb world and Cato one-shot a shard of a god. Like, you know they went and retconned damnos because it was one of the extremely few times space marines were allowed to LOSE.
As a Tau player I’ve always been confused on the lack of variety of troops since the Tau are supposed to have equal or greater technology than the Imperium. Tech advancement, especially for military tech, is made through lots of trail and error, both in the equipment itself and how it’s used. Like IFVs can trace their need back to trucks and the need for armored vehicles to drive infantry into battle. That caused the development of APCs which worked for a bit before realizing they’re kind of useless if the enemy has any tanks or anti tank weapons. So they slapped an auto cannon and missile system onto a light tank body expanded to be an APC creating a pseudo tank that could protect infantry from almost anything. Throughout this development hundreds of prototypes and production vehicles were thought up and made, with varying success. And that’s just one vehicle type. So how have the Tau only have three basic infantry weapons, one heavy infantry weapon, one drone system that just steals from other systems, and essentially the same mech suit just enlarged or shrunk down over the course of a couple hundred years??? Almost all of the changes that have happened have been to the systems themselves and not the core equipment, which is ok in the short term but eventually things are going to get outdated. So really the only explanation is this and the general Tau hate. Although GW has gotten better with new Tau updates as of late so maybe their getting better?
I recently found out about the Astral Knight chapter of space marines, and really like their lore because their chapter basically sacrificed themselves to achieve their goal of destroying a Necron World Engine, which is a nice change of pace from the lore of other chapters.
I think part of why the Space Marines almost always win is because in whatever story they appear in, 9 times out of 10 they are the viewpoint characters. The story gets told from their perspective. As such, even when they get bodied, it's still a pyrrhic victory for them. All but a couple of the marines involved die, but they still technically win. GW cannot help themselves putting the audience into the Space Marine perspective, and that skews the authorial scales in their favor. The ultimate source of this is GW's general proclivity to make Humanity - or rather the Imperium - the default viewpoint for 40K. Vanishingly few stories put the Imperium in the antagonist role, that non-Imperium characters need to deal with. (Notable exception that proves the rule: the Necron novel Twice Dead King: Ruin. When the Imperium shows up, they are properly terrifying.) Which is really the answer to how one fixes the Space Marines: give more equal narrative representation to people who aren't the Imperium of Man.
That why liked the story about the fall of the Diasporex a nomadic fleet of humans AND aliens that were descended from what were basically some pre-Age of Strife interstellar merchant fleets. And while that tale is told mostly through the perspective of SPACE marines rather than present their view as ultimately justified instead it shows just how utterly narrow minded, bigoted, and utterly brainwashed these roided up fanatics encased in plates of cold ceramite actually are. To them, the very concept of *""xenos""* and full bloodied humans actually coexisting peacefully is inconceivable, that their world view is based on the unquestioned notion that species cannot live together AND be roughly equals, at the very least they'd expect one species among them to dominate all others whether it be the 'misguided' but rightfully dominant humans even if they should have killed all the xenos (as if that's just a forgone conclusion to the marines) or the filthy non human creatures enslaving poor humans to be liberated, *there's no in between with them* which is why they found the Diasporex particularly bizarre. They challenged their (the Space Marines) deeply held beliefs and for their crime of existing, in the eyes of the propaganda drenched super soldiers they had to be destroyed even though doing so served no greater strategic purpose but it was all about preserving the dogmatic narrative; *"there can be no peace, this is how it must be with ever non human thing we encounter because if that wasn't the case then who really is humanity's worst enemy, us?"*
for space marines losing, since they're not usually active in more than groups of 10 or so (right???) why not just mention space marine squads getting wiped out more. Like a squad came to help the imperial guard secure a facility and have the squad all die or just take casualties and have to pull out. Throw in a couple events where space marines lose a whole company or two and you're golden. honestly space marines should NOT have been their own faction, they should be a small allied attachment to imperial guard, sisters of battle, or inquisitor faction. Have storm troopers take the place of space marines during most operations, maybe introduce better tech for them to compensate for this fact as well
While I agree with this it shouldn't be a mention that xenos win and that's it like how it almost always is, it should be a full story where the xenos win for once
I want a book where the Ultras lose, the Eldar bail them out, the Lamenters have to complete the Ultras original mission, and, with the help of the Guardsmen, they do. Not to hate on the Ultras, but to help them be interesting by not having then win by default
The Night Lords omnibus is the exception. Sure it's still about space marine winning but it's the CHAOS space marine, even then most of it are pyrrhic victories. One time with the help of Red Corsair, they managed to score a major win againts a loyalist chapter. Overall highly recommended series to read.
Chaos Space marines are just as bad. GW have been long replacing everything cool and interesting about chaos and just make is space marines with pointier armor. you rarely ever hear about anything that has to do with chaos anymore that isn't just chaos space marines even though there is SUPPOSED to be even less of them then even regular SMs.
I think a great example of what you're talking about was War Zone Fenris, the SW got absolutely smashed by Magnus. Loads of dead marines, planets destroyed oh and now they're back at full strength thanks to Cawl.
I just figure that people dislike space Marines for one main reason. It’s the same reason Space Marine fans may not like the Ultramarines. They’re the poster child and face of the franchise that, while cool, are only a fraction of the whole universe. It’s like when you got watch a super hero movie and the one hero you like is slotted as a side character.
What I hate about them is that they have this huge model range and their models still feel the same I don't know the difference between a captain in Gravis armor and one in phobos armor. Stormcast suffer from the same problem btw
Yeah, I know. I feel like it shouldn't be THIS hard to make unique looking models for different space marine chapters in terms of their shapes while still adhering to the whole armored truck on legs design of them.
Hold on can we talk about that Dark Souls 2 comment being right because that is 100% how I have felt for years and always felt like I was the crazy one
You're not crazy, people love to hammer on DS2's weaker world building, rather boring "dude in armor" style bosses and the dreaded soul memory which are all completely fair criticisms that I personally agree with - but like a game of telephone that criticism becomes devoice of any nuance and sooner or later you'll end up with folks on Reddit claiming it is "universally accepted" that DS2 was an awful game - which is completely and utter bullshit. In terms of itemisation, gameplay mechanics, PvP, DLC, NG+, customisation, build viability and even performance DS2 was an absolutely massive step forward from DS1 and laid the groundwork for what the more modern and polished Souls games would looks like. People take so much that DS2 did for granted, and its a shame. It managed to kill the turtling that plagued DS1 by not simply nerfing sword and board but instead addressing the viability issues of dual wielding. That alone earns it heaps of praise. DS2 is a great addition to the souls library and I will die on that hill.
Love Spacemarines but to me they should be portrayed as brutal psychopathic killing machines that are few in numbers, I want stories where the spacemarines are the antagonists in a story.
The fall of the Diasporex is a rather interesting take on this, sure it's still mostly viewed from the perspectives of space marines but their thinking is presented in a way that feels utterly alien, it reminds me of just how brainwashed and indoctrinated they really are because the foes they are fighting just wanted to be left alone but because they not only were xenos but having the gaul to be a society of xenos AND humans mixed and mingled, living together, coexisting peacefully was something inconceivable to the astartes, offensive because it defied their assumptions and challenged their beliefs. For once the ethos of the Imperium was put into a critical analysis that would make even the most fanitical xenophobes have to ask uncomfortable questions about their doctrine and about themselves...well would have if they didn't just double down on the hate mantras.
Seeing the Aeldari in 30k would be amazing, you have a faction that is recovering from the destruction of their empire, fending off the Great Crusade while trying to figure out how they adapt to the new paradigm when they have been used to just leeroy Jenkins because lol what are you gonna, do kill me? I'm immortal bitch. Straight up make a bunch of new craftworlds that have unique suicidal tactics. Aeldari are Prideful "we don't have to change because we are the strongest, you can't stand before our might!"
I want to mention, the thing about how space marines have a lot of models, well, yeah, because space marines, like humans, are very diverse. I'm an Ork player, and ork diversity is basically size related, be that their gun or their body. Meanwhile there's a stark difference between the Black Templars and Salamanders.
Yeah, because Tyrades are not diverse at all, it's not like they can evolve in a matter of days to produce a new bioform :p Also, no, there's not a stark contrast between the Black Templars and the Salamanders, the only difference in the model is the paint. And Orks Kultures have as much difference betw them than the superficial differences between the different Space Marine chapters, but they don't get a codex each XD
@@krankarvolund7771 I get it, I like space marines and have a Salamander army myself, but I just wanted to say that RPGs have been part of the 40k experience for ages. I just finished a Dark Heresy 2e game and I'm running Wrath and Glory next week. The fluff matters a great deal for folks like me and my rpg friends. Homebrew lore is great, of course, but it's just not the same as well-designed canon. 🤷♀️
@@poilaaliop The RPG exists since a long time, but it was never as successful as the wargame. And well designed canon? Warhammer 40k lore is a lot of things but well written, rarely 😅
I’m happy you pointed out most of the problems when it comes to Space Marines, because of how popular they are and how much exposure they got from fans or being spoiled all too often I got sick of the Imperium because the Space Marines. Like you said, it would be a breath of fresh air to see them lose instead of being looked at as these OP Super Soldiers that never loses.
You nailed the reason why I won’t get into W40K. It feels like it’s all about Space Marines at everybody else’s expense. In Age of Sigmar (which I play) the Stormcast Eternals gets treated like every other army. There are no favorites there.
It would be funny if they made a book where a bunch of space marines are losing horribly and need to request backup from guard to save them instead of other way around (unless it already happened and if it did I’m not all that surprised)
The notion of a "beginner army" for a hobby as expensive as 40k is ludicrous. You should carefully pick which army you're going to collect because you're gonna be dropping hundreds of dollars on them at least.
It's the same scam as a "starter house". Of course the people who sell stuff want you to buy something inadequate to your future needs so you'll buy again later. When you sell things that last a lifetime, infinite growth is only possible if everyone buys multiple times.
![BRASIL vs. URUGUAY [1-1] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 12](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-hWBAuxF1eY/mqdefault.jpg)
First!
Manieth.
Nice,also as a yugoslavian I find the Yugoslavia states being mad at each other would be sad to me, if I could feel sad
Good job man
Fists
And Only
Mankind: “We are losing the war!”
A Space Marine Chapter full of failed genetic experiments probably called the Mistakes: *Wipes out 5 Tyrannid Hive Minds, 10 Eldar’s bases, 20 Orc Waaaaaaaghs and a Avatar of Khaine*
Cancerous, bedridden Emperor's Child who is one day away from dying: **Destroys three Tombworlds and 8 bodies of Imotekh**
One cancerous barely alive guardsman: kamikazes a maiden world
Losing war my ass
@@toheekang174especially compared to stuff like halo where humanity gets its ass kicked at every single engagement save for daring acts of heroism that only slow down the inevitable.
40k isn't dark, it's edgy, you want dark? Read the fall of reach, child super soldiers being pressed into suicidal missions because they're the only thing that even barely works against an enemy that will inevitably win, and quickly.
GW should hire whoever wrote halo reach and the original halo novels, get some actual hopeless darkness in 40k.
@@PeachDragon_ You must be a virgin to 40k lore. There are some really fucked up 40k stories out there.
As a Thousand Sons player I agree with and endorse your point on wiping out the Space Wolves
Magnus's goof on Midgardia was hilarious.
It's kinda weird, I only really know Magnus from TTS where he's a loveable idiot.
@@somethinglikethat2176 Magnus in lore is the “book smart, social dumb ass,” who somehow messes up every single time.
as a dark Angels member I agree, HERITIC.
@@brotheraracon3646 heretic*
If I remember correctly, for the Helsreach crusade the Black Templars deployed 100 Space Marines, 98 of them died. The only 2 that survived were Reclusiarch „I hate my live“ Grimaldus and a Tech Marine, who only survived because he spent months in a vault trying to power up a nova canon, they’re by not being present in the actual war. The ending was depressing man, the apothecary died and all of the rescued geneseed got destroyed and even Grimaldus was not only pissed that he survived, but also that everyone calls him „the Hero of Helsreach“, as if their was only one…
That is I think a good example of „Marines losing but still kicking ass“ story.
Such a great movie
I want more of that shit, I love it.
@@pancreasnowork9939 i have no idea what 40k even is but like 5 videos into it and everything is insanity. Is there like a series to watch or specific book to read to gain insight on this?
@@TheLuuman adeptus ridiculous.
@@pancreasnowork9939 have you read ‘Rynn’s World’? Fantastic book detailing the royal rodgering of the Crimson Fists by WAAAAAAAGH! Snagrod. Sorry if you brought it up in the video, I’ve only just started watching it
When the "elite" faction has hundreds of more models than other factions, are they really elite? or are they just spoiled?
As a SM player I hate to be connected to this and I think GW have no idea what they are doing. Though it is nice that new stuff is coming out for Xenos.
100% spoiled, but they're the poster faction. Also don't feel like an elite army pricewise, probably because we've got a jillion units and the new option is often the better one (termies & devastators are barely holding on, RIP tac squads)
they sell far better than any other faction, period. And dont give me "oh but if only they put that love into MY favorite faction they would totally beat sm". SM have been the driving force behind 40k since its inception, and have since 1e been by far the best selling faction. They look cool, are easy to paint, have good lore, and gw can make one mold that works for all the SM factions. The player base of SW or BA alone dwarfs most other factions and most of the models used in those armies are generic SM ones. People complain about "Primaris char #12314" but they make those ktis cause people buy them
@@nukethenatelore i've bought entire kits to proxy those characters as well because the price tag offended me. They're fucking good
@@nukethenatelore
So do the other factions, they all look cool, aren't impossible to paint, not to an unreasonable degree, and what little they have in lore is awsome. So no, I see ZERO reasons for neglecting the other factions to the insulting level that GW does. Let me ask would you be upset like a raging toddler if the other factions started getting about as much love and updates as the space marines get PER faction do now?
I enjoy Space Marines but I find guardsmen more relatable. Love them in games but in books I prefer Guardsmen
I can't relate to the nearly immortal super soldier fighting daemons from hell with magic but I sure as hell can relate to the guy behind a machine gun shitting himself because a bug the size of a mansion just ripped a tank in half in front of him
@@pancreasnowork9939 don't take it as me hating but Ciaphas Cain is more human than the No Fear space marine. I enjoy them appearing in the story or especially in a game but Guardsmen I just infinitely prefer as they are a bit more human in their reactions.
Now Sigmarines...I really have trouble with them.
EDIT I misinterpreted PancreasNoWork tone with the above reply...oops.
@@pancreasnowork9939 The most relatable character I ever encountered in any book (not just Warhammer) was from the Gaunt's Ghosts series. Try-Again Bragg. He's tall, he has a deep voice, and he is a bit socially awkward. So everyone assumes he's a moron, even though he's actually pretty smart. I feel like that represents myself rather well, personally. That's part of why the Gaunt's Ghosts series is so great - there are so many characters and they're all so distinct. Most of them feel like people that could exist in real-life, and chances are, anyone who reads it is going to find at least one character that resonates them.
“If one of us falls 10 more will take his place!” Yep sounds like desperate humanity going strong.
@@Darek_B52 StormChads > VirginMarines
You could kind of kill two birds with one stone if there was a Xenos focused book that basically featured Space Marines in the "final boss" sort of role in the story. Say a small group of craftworlders are on a mission to retrieve a stash of lost soulstones in the midst of a battlefield full of Orks and guardsmen. The craftworlders manage to mostly stay under the radar, but end up icing a couple of Imperial officers to stay incognito. Their absence gets noted, and a squad of marines in the area gets diverted to investigate. The craftworlders stay out of their way at first, but then the unthinkable happens. The armored brutes find the soulstones first. Every second they hold them is a second that risks the loss of such precious artifacts, so the craftworlders decide to neutralize the threat. They are too few to face the marines head to head, so the climax of the book could be them slowly isolating the marines through trickery and picking them off one at a time. A few close calls later, the stones are recovered, the horrible foes slain, and diplomacy was never even attempted because fuck you why would we be sensible? You could even end things with the Eldar evacuating the planet, supremely satisfied with their mission, while the imperial forces below are overwhelmed by the orks without their commanders or marine backup. Xenos look cool, marines are shown getting outplayed, and the darkness is grim.
"A few close calls later, the stones are recovered, the horrible foes slain, and diplomacy was never even attempted because fuck you why would we be sensible?"
To be fair: The Imperium has shown itself, time and time again, to be untrustworthy, genocidal maniacs, and that's why Eldar started backstabbing in return.
My friend I have fantastic news for you. Read “Twice Dead King: Ruin” and the sequel. It’s a book about Necrons and a blood angels successor chapter plays a huge role in it as antagonists.
It only would be grimdark if in the end the group would ultimately fail due to ork interference. Or at least get seriously maimed by the greenskins. That would also make the Orks look dangerous af.
What would make it even more Grimdark is the Orks take the planet, a War boss unites them into a Waaagh!, then the the Waaagh! eventually makes it's way to the Craftoworl and either outright destroys it, or causes an immense amount of damage.
Including destroying more Soul stones then what they gained.
@@Psychoangel-d23 I disagree. Showing one side be entirely unconcerned with the utter destruction of another, especially due to their own callous actions, is a much better display of darkness than the usual “haha everyone dies because grim” that so many “mature” stories run with.
I'm of the opinion that every faction should have a creative team dedicated to it that writes lore, makes art, and designs models to be printed so that no faction is left in the dust, and sub factions could get that list treatment with the A. Ultramarines B. Blood Angels C. Salamanders and so on
that way noone gets left in the dust on releases and everyone gets to feel like their faction matters and they have a path to victory, everyone has people rooting for them in GW. Maybe if the Tau had their own team wed finally start seeing the auxiliaries, and if the eldar had a creative team we might actually start seeing some models for the ynnari like the Corsairs and Harlequins.
There's the problem of all the teams going "I'm the main character here" so you'd need a neutral team who could Cadia people at random so none get too big for their boots
Have you ever heard about Fire Emblem Fates?
Yeah, having multiple teams making lore doesn’t really works
@@Leo-ok3uj I mean, it can work if they all actually talk to each other
The best way for this to work is each team being in good contact and communication with each other in case certain things overlap or what the current situation of each story is in.
@@GenericProtagonist118 actually that could lead to really cool stories of forces clashing or teaming up against a bigger threat if they did communicate great
i kinda dislike the fact that they always say that most space marine chapters don't go beyond 1k marines but in most arts the space marines always have a thousand dudes of the same chapter deployed, kinda wish there where more small and focused chapters, instead of ¨ultramarines but with different strategy/different color¨
also the thousand marine cuota is just straight up retarded, should be between 5000 and 10000 or 50000
(maybe) the reason for having artworks like that is that you can have more than 1000 marines if you are on crusade, and Space Marine chapters are on crusade quite a lot
I'm building a full chapter at the moment, if you go by the lore there honestly have to be 1400 space marines & scouts at any given time for the force organization to make sense. The techmarines, apothecarium & chaplaincy have combined 30 marines at codex compliancy which makes literally 0 sense given the scale of what a chapter does
@@franciscogarciadamiani979 10k. Whenever games workshop says a population, you add a zero to it for it to make sense.
ya I think a lot of what space marines do should be done by storm troopers with some space marines sprinkled in
I just wish we got more stories with them losing, better yet, having them get saved by Guardsmen or a Fleet or something else I don’t know.
Yes.... YEEES
Ive written my scion regiment actually saved my marine chapter from extinction and that the scions were scary to the marines being saved (the scions though designed thier uniforms to strike fear, along with other traits in thier training)
@@skree272 I agree with that, my Space Marines, Guard Regiment, and Knight House are all from the same system, but they all work as branches of a single (doomed) force because they're hemmed in by Necrons, Chaos, and Tau (and probably some Orks, there's always some Orks) and that's taught them a bunch of harsh lessons about going off alone. E.g. the Marines' 5th Company are currently rebuilding because they were stubborn and got themselves trapped behind enemy lines without telling anyone, and it's only that the Guard happened to be engaging that same force and putting together an impromptu push to their location (at great personal cost to the Guard), that the few surviving Marines can say they're alive.
@@TripleBarrel06 yeah, my space marine chapter usually tries to keep casualties low on all sides, most definitely civillians, they would rather be burnt than let civillians die, however this causes them to take risks that end up with a sticky situation for the marines
Being saved by guard is uplifting but not a good idea. The marines usually shoe up when the guard is boned to unbone them. Having them get saved by guard when they tend to be shoving themselves into the hard to reach places of the enemy sounds weird.
@@basition I think that's moreso because it's what we're used to, even though it's probably not something we should be used to. The Guardsmen shouldn't be "the guys who get saved" when they're the closest in setting to modern day soldiers.
As an ork fan girl, the Beast series is also a space marine focused party.
The Prophet of the Waaagh book is legit, tho. Need more of that, a grot pov is great.
Or another way to fix the lore is to show that yes the space marines are the best thing since water but they aren't enough.
Yes they can single handily kick the fuck out of a race that does nothing but eat sleep and fight but its not enough. Have them go to a planet to win only to hear about the other 5 they didnt have enough time to get to fall to another faction. The imperiam biggest problem is fighting on top many fronts so show this.
This is overtly stated in the lore. There’s less than five hundred thousand space marines for over a billion imperial worlds. Space marines change any battlefield when they arrive, but they can’t be everywhere at once.
Reminding people that Space Marines are discount, made with cheaper parts Custodes might also help, so that Space Marines and everyone else can bond over their mutual impotence.
@@TheKingsPride It's never portrayed in practice though.
@@LordVader1094 you only see space marines in the battles they take part in. There are plenty that they don’t. I don’t really understand where you’re coming from here, because like I said it’s pretty overt in the lore. Do you want them to say it verbatim in every story?
@@TheKingsPride around a million space marines for around a million worlds. Plus a million primaris
The saddest thing is that there’s so much potential to explore space marines’ weaknesses against other factions. I would love to read about a battle between Space Wolves and the T’au where the Wolves get absolutely annihilated before they even make eye contact with the T’au, hundreds of rockets and lasers completely destroying the Marines. Or Imperial Fists getting ambushed by the Dark Eldar, completely unable to set up defensive positions, disorganized and slowly being picked off one by one by lightning fast strikes and horrible monsters. Show us the weak parts, if Space Marines are to lose, don’t make it a brave last stand where the victor takes a lot of damage, give me a crushing and demoralizing defeat!
Great vid as always, and you already know I’m flexing my emote
It's like I said, I don't hate the Space Marines. They're awesome. Just so overexposed and overhyped that they can't help but develop some bad feelings.
Tbh the Tau should be constantly clapping the Wolves. They are literally MADE for giving Leman's furries Prospero flashbacks
The key to getting xenos books to ensure the good authors get their hands on them, infinite and the divine is beloved and you can bet your ass necrons will get more love because of that success. Eldar as of recent had the ynnari books that were cancelled, and while everyone felt bad for eldar that they got cancelled, I look to eldar players to see them celebrating because they thought they were shit. Beast arises had a decent start but fell off in quality part way through. We need good writers on xenos books and enough consistent quality in series for them that they won't either be dropped or only have half decent series you'll only read half the entries for.
As an eldar player, the ynnari series was painfully bad. Firstly, just as a critique of the writing. All the characters were flat, there were some pretty egregious cases of telling instead of showing, most of the books was boring drudgery, and it was very rarely ever satisfying.
From a note in universe perspective, the eldar are written horribly and not like eldar at all. The power scales are all wrong, they act in ways you’d almost never see eldar acting, and it finishes by accomplishing and changing nothing :)
Twice Dead King also kicked ass. Necrons have had a serious renaissance in terms of novels recently.
Maybe get Andy Chambers to write a new Ynnari book?
He did a great job with his Path of the Dark Eldar story
At this point the only way to save Eldar lore is to outright redo the whole Ynnari thing with better writers.
@@nathanieleck1023 I always felt like the Eldar books where good at creating a setting but bad at telling a story in that environment. The three path books where meh plot wise but the details and descriptions where imo really interesting. First Ynnari book ( I think?) with the geanstealers jumped from ok to badass to utter trash. I feel like having more than 1 author would help in that regard
The Space Wolves thing is funny, Fenris canonically got a minuscle population (3 million top), Magnus wrecked the place, yet, surprise, Primaris solve the problem.
It would be good to see the Wolves having to make new recruitment in other planets as well as actually stepping down from their mountains to help the population, reinforcements can only help so much if the population is now too small to actually sustain the chapter.
The only meaningful space marine loss I can think of is that time the blood ravens lost half their chapter at Kaurava. But even then they rebuilt by the time of dawn of war 3 so it doesn’t really matter too much, even though it did lead to dawn of war 2s whole campaign
SPOILERS TO THE EISENHORN SERIES
It's not a fully explored defeat, but in the eisenhorn series, more specifically Mallus, there's an entire chapter during the parade when the terrorist attack happens, and not only we see more than one marine dying horribly, but they fail to do anything meaningful and are by far not the focus.
Rebuilding the chapter to whatever want as Gabriel Angelos in the campaign would've been awesome.
only meaningful space marine loss???????????????????? you mean the entire Horus Hersey every crusade that goes wrong lol
Never heard of Lamenters? Or the first Tyrannic war? Or the Devestation of Baal?
@@ralphthefanboy IT IS THE BANEBLAAAAAADE
One of the problems I can think of when releasing Space Marines every single week for the Tabletop is the fact that by neglecting other factions, people beginning don't want to move onto/try out the others because in a literal week more Space Marine stuff will come out for them.
If GW gave more models and lore to the other factions, whether its Imp Guard, Mechanicus, Eldar, Tyranids, Necrons, Orks, etc consistently then more people would be interested in giving them a shot.
Hell, Chaos doesn't even receive nearly the same amount of love as Space Marines and they are suppose to be the biggest threat to the Imperium.
Really tho, it just annoys me with how often I see Space Marine vs Space Marine games because its the only faction people want to try and play.
Not only that, but Space Marines have so many models, they cover almost every playstyle a player might want to run, with the exception of horde.
Most other armies have, to some degree, an amount of specialization, even if each army has a couple different "modes". Tyranids have hordes, big monsters, and psychic spam. Eldar have psychic spam and speed, but are also glass cannons. Etc, etc.
But Space Marines can do basically everything, with the right list. As such, a person who started with Space Marines has the choice of either spending a bunch of money to build a whole new army to test out a different playstyle...or they can spend comparatively less, adding a few units to their existing Space Marine force. Allowing them to try out different strategies at minimal expense and much faster.
When you create an army that's so versatile, you encourage players to never leave that army.
@@Bluecho4 Thousand Sons only have 5 units they can field for a pure Thousand Sons army. They might eventually get the Infernal Master as a 6th unit if they sell him as a separate box from the terrible combat patrol.
Space Marines are great and should very much continue being the face of the game, but no ones ever going to branch out if the other options clearly get less love and you can only buy so many space marines.
@@pancreasnowork9939 Space Marines are like gen 1 pokemon, they are overused and become tiring to see other generations being neglected.
@@tzeentchlordoffates9268 To be fair, that's entirely because of the way the cult legions work. As much as we Chaos players like to pretend otherwise, the Death Guard and Thousand Sons aren't REALLY their own factions. They're Chaos Marine sub-factions with their own codices. Functionally, they're not all that different from the Space Marine codex supplements.
Actually where DID most of the guard go? we had the mongolian style roughriders. The oddly american US marine in dress uniform looking mordian iron guard. The krieg who are thankfully making a comeback (The steel legion was krieg lite so that could be fixed with paint jobs.) We dont have most of them anymore. Like what about the Elysian drop troopers and there ODST style? Or the voystrian firstborn Looking right out steampunk russia? The valhallens are famous thanks to caiphas cains novels but do they get any model love? NOPE. Or how about yeah THE TALLAREN DESERT RADIERS! I want my army of space mujaheddin wearing guard issue shemaghs with lasguns that have curved mags like AKs.
I Like space marines. But I would never deny GW has NO love for any other faction in 40k as anything other then bolter fodder (xenos and choas) or background filler (the rest of the imperium)
They left because that's a lot of regiments, like A LOT and making the same model for all of those different factions would take so much resources
@@themanthemyth4522 *Looking at space marines but with an extra bit of armor while the vine boom sound effect plays in the background*
@@themanthemyth4522 y..you’re describing space…you’re just talking about space marines!
@@dogshake Space Marine appearances don't differ as drastically as Guard appearances. Look at two chapters side-by-side. Then do the same with the guard. Who looks more different?
That’s because cannon fodder is always cannon fodder no matter how you dress them up.
It doesn’t matter what the specialties of different IG regiments have. In the end they all die in colossal numbers while waiting for the Space Marines to show up and do all the heavy lifting.
Bro what the FUCK!? Why are these eldar getting releases and space marines aren't getting ANYTHING! This isn't FAIR
One of the reasons I fell in love with the Crimson Fists is they've always been the underdogs. They got aced in their main book and reduced to a barely functioning amount. Every death was a major loss and the Orks were absolutely winning Rynn's World. By the end, when a Fist showed up, it was mostly to keep up morale amongst the normal humans during a losing war. The CFs didn't really win the war on their own either, instead having to bet everything on a small move so the Imperium could save their planet.
Of course, with the introduction of the Primaris instant-fixing the chapter, everything that made the CFs interesting was thrown out the window. They're no longer a Chapter with some of the smallest numbers, refusing to give in no matter the odds. Now they're just another chapter in dark blue.
Honestly its always been my biggest pet pieave HOW primaris were introduced more than their introduction. It was Cawl taking Corax's failed Raptor project and making new marines on his on initiative just some secret plot from Gman that could have bailed the Imperium out and any point before now. It wasn't a slow move to accepting them across the stubborn first born chapters and imbalance of first born elitism or pride against primaries ego and naivete.
:’(
I hate that you're right. They're mega underrated and have amazing lore!
See this is why making the Primaris just an upgrade kit (in universe) that Cawl unleashed at Gulliman's command for regular Space Marines would have been a better idea to roll with. You miss out on the 'new vs old' angle, but you gain so much for it.
Spot on for the table, any release that isn't SM is a win. I don't care who gets it, anything that's new adds to to the table looking even better. Lore, I want to see Black templar get humbled by Word Bearers in an epic "that's a nice book you got there...would be a shame if some one revealed its origins"...I'm not biased you're biased😆
I would be so happy if the word bearers did that to one of the religious chapters. "Hey bud, I see you worship the God-Emperor...you know who wrote that fancy book of yours?"
It might be too edgy of concept for GW though
@@deaconblack8939 in the same universe as the Dark Eldar, rape daemons and the Daemonculaba idk if anything can be considered “too edgy.”
@@pancreasnowork9939 No no, the idea of having one of their main groups get humbled by lowly degenerate traitors
Meh, they probably either keep it under wraps or straight up NOT take their word for it because why would you believe a traitor
I don't play 40k. Never bought any of the merch and never will. I just like world building stories and your videos about the 40k world is great. You care about it and it shows.
Keep up the good work ogre man.
I get it partner. I just like to paint the models and read the books. I will never actually play the game lmao
@@snowgeese7292 Never pained or had anything at all to do with the game. I just work a physical job and like epic world building stories to listen to as I work.
Same here
I like the lore and the video games. Sometimes watch a couple tabletop games, but reading the lore is mostly what i like about it
My small town got its first game store in years, and it's first store that's ever sold Warhammer 3 months ago. According to the owner, in a town where almost no one knows what Warhammer is, the most popular races have been Orks and Necrons, with the 2 Imperial Knights he was given also selling as well. Space Marines, Adeptus Mechanics, and Imperial Guard have basically moved nothing in that time. The funniest thing about this is that since the store is so new, the one big order of stock they put in for was apparently hand picked by Games Workshop themselves, who tries to provide this fledgling store with their "best sellers", which was essentially 2x the number of Space Marine kits than any other.
Just goes to show how silly they are, Honestly corporations in general don't think. It's the same with 711 and their shit policies that ignore all the nuanced details of a location or even any data. Relating that back to GW and its easy to see how clear community backed wishes and ideas are backlogged to shove more SM content down our throats. Like, I am a Space Marine player, Dark Angels, and even I think its too much to the point of annoyance. Not hard to see how Eldar players especially have the right to complain.
@@Noble6Espeo It's ridiculous. All the vehicles they picked for them were Imperial too, besides one (1!) small Death Guard tank. There are two (2!) bastard Land Raiders that have been sitting on the shelves for months. I'm considering just buying one, painting it red and sticking a bunch of razor blades to it to make it a roight propa loota.
Personnally I love the Space Marines, but, I also love the Imperial Guard, and to my little knowledge of the WH40K lore (because I didn’t read any WH40K novel), the guard is always described as a weak army who is holding the Imperium upright only because of the number of soldiers and regiments available, and who is always saved because of the providential arrival of the SM. And I think that, as a solution against SM over-rating, writting a novel, telling the story of an Imperial Guard regiment defending and winning against a powerful enemy (preferably in my opinion Chaos Space Marines) alone and without the help of loyalists SM or another Imperial faction would be super cool. It will show how the SM are rare and sometimes absents when needed in the galaxy and show the guard as a good army capable of defending the Imperium not only because they got the astartes on their side but also because the guard is actually mighty, and most important : useful.
I mean you kinda right, the concessus is that they're weak but in lore IG are elite, picture irl US Marines, and their even more elite Tempestus Scions are Special Forces among them. There are many cool stories and guar regiments outside the big ones that get shit done and have good wins but its subsumed by that mass amounts of "and the guard held long enough for chapter blank to cripple the enemy and fuck off"
This happens often in the Ciaphas Cain and Gaunt's Ghosts novels. In fact out of all the Cain novels I've read (7? I think so far), not a single space marine appeared in any of them. I've only read the first Gaunt novel and that was the case as well. Even better is that Cain's regiment is Valhallan and Gaunt's is Tanith, which is cool imo as it's good to see non-Cadians being the focus.
The issue is that the guard is not a weak army in on itself. It is actually pretty strong. The problem is that it is weak COMPARED TO EVERYTHING ELSE. The lore states that the IG would probably wipe the floor with any of earth's modern militaries or even one of the major factions of the WH40K universe, but not all at the same time. So there are 2 interpretations of the weak aspect: they are actually OP but everyone else is way more OP than them; and they use flashlights for guns. Guess which interpretation GW went with?
@@javieraravena5345 not even everything else. Traitor guardsmen are worse than the IG, and the IG can probably hold their ground against medium ork armies and smaller tyranid fleets. They being wrecked by Eldar psykers or their lasguns bouncing off a necron are justified, their lasguns being placeholders for a "I am literally a walking, talking unit of time until the marines arrive" sign is not
Might I reccomend Gaunt’s Ghosts, Ciaphis Cain, and Volpone Glory :)
legit about the books. someone in another vid was like "i shoudl go read up on the tau" and i comment "good fuckin luck. there's all of five books on them that i know of and 2 of them are STILL half about the space marines. i'd LOVE to know why a book called FIRE WARRIOR is read half from teh perspective of a space marine." and also here's literally the ENTIRETY of imperium lore it's 3 things "the guard are losing a battle" "an inquisitor fucked up and blew up a planet" and "the space marines showed up, and then everytihng fucking died no matter how outnumbered they were"
*cries in Leagues of Votann*
As someone who thinks that the space wolves are the most try hard, edgelord, viking wannabe fan fic faction in 40k I am fully down for them just getting wiped out
I'm not sure who decided to go all in on the Wolf part of the Space Wolves but turning Vikings in space into werewolves in space is a leap that I can't quite understand.
My man
If they went more in the viking direction and less autistic wolves in space theme, I'd like them alot more but honestly I can't find myself caring what happens to them rn
@@john46525 Honestly yeah. I heard a headcannon thing that honestly is the only thing that keep them even palletable in my head, that all the times you hear wolf are Imperial archivists not having a clean translation for a nuanced fenrisian term.
It's just sad because they have the potential to be a Chapter brim full with culture and definition but just became the wolf boys because why lean into vikings as hard as ultramarines leaned to romans when you can spam "wolf"
@@Noble6Espeo the roman theme is honestly the only thing keeping me on board with the Ultramarine. The poet thing to do is have Ultramar fragment and fall apart like the irl Roman empire boom they're now underdogs barely keeping it together.
Yes these comments are what I was expecting very happy to see my Farseer abilities are still functioning properly.
Based
Farseet, the only thing in the way of seeing their feet is an ars ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Silly elves. They train for millenia to be a farseer, but I can pick up these binoculars and be a far seer in seconds.
I would honestly love to see a few books where the space marines get the snot beat out of them, or yeah, maybe something happens to another xenos faction . necrons were allowed to get the silent king back, space marines get guilliman back, yet eldar get nothing because fuck the eldar. maybe the tau actually carve out a decently sized empire, cementing the fact the imperium has basically lost it's chance to wipe them out.
Thing is? I'd love to see some of the things you mentioned, and I've been saying to my friends for years how great it would be.
Don't just give us a War in Heaven book series; start with Szarekh's ascension to power as the silent king, Necron Politics are game of thrones-y enough that it would be really cool to read. After that, have some books detailing the Necrons first attempt at sticking it to the old ones; it failed. Miserably. You can then have a book in much the same vein as the Horus Rising trilogy, having the Deciever giving the necrons immortality. You could bring back characters like Trazyn and Orikan, at the beginning of their personal fued. Go through the war, cover how the necrons have basically won, having driven the Old ones to extinction and ran off the eldar to the edge of the galaxy. The orks are still around, of course, but only because they're
... well, orks. Or Kroks in this case.
You could have a whole slew of books detailing how the Necrons betray the C'tan, hell, having a book covering how the Flayer is outright KILLED rather than shattered like the rest of them would be awsome.
Then there could be a somber end to the story when Szerekh has almost everyone go to sleep, and then straight up leaves the galaxy.
And all of this is JUST from the Necron side. There's still the Eldar, Orks, and Old ones, as well as whatever GW could manage to cook up.
It would be so so good and it hurts me that I have so little faith Gw will do it
Theres a really cool series for the Necrons called "the twice dead: ruin" and then also Reign. If you enjoyed infinite and divine you'll surely enjoy that one as well
I will give it a go!
@@pancreasnowork9939 It's specifically The Twice Dead King Duology and, while only two books, absolutely incredible.
Tbh, a Halo Reach style of space marine story would be pretty dope.
I mean Space marine is the closest I can think but we won that battle
As of your comment on the Horus heresy not feeling apocalyptic. I'd request for you to listen or read the fury of Magnus. Genuinely shows how demolished Terra was midway into the seige. And emperor knows what it looked like during it's later stages.
I don't dislike them.
I hate the fact that their the face of the entire franchise.
I wanna see more Sisters of War, Guardsmen, Tau, and Aeldar Comics, Books, Animated Films, Video Games.
I wanna see a story of a regular Citizen of the Imperium going from a regular depressed guy to someone who goes thru all the magnificent & horrible stuff in the 40k Universe and becomes a major character.
I wanna see another Human Faction as powerful as the Imperium or Tau.
I just wanna see something other then Space Marines.
The problem is that if Games Workshop does do this, the Fandom would complain like stupid baby bitches and send them death threats like always
Space Marines are the most popular, not because GW wants them, but because they just ARE. People don't hate space marines, angry people online hate space marines.
@@danitron4096 I'm fairly certain that people who hate them online hate them in real life too, chief. But really, the Marines need to either have their popularity lowered or the other factions need to have the same popularity. Show T'au allied Guardsmen fighting against a force of Eldar Exodites. Do OTHER stuff to show how it's not just Space Catholics versus everything else and the kitchen sink.
I actually had a idea that probably a good way to fix the problem tabletop wise is to probably do a new edition starter set where space marines arent in it
Or at the very least, make it so those limited edition box sets with the two armies facing off just become regular products you can buy. You don't need to have only one starter box.
Agree 100% with this video. Kinda funny how I ended up going Raven Guard when it came to building an army due to Istavaan, but that is still Horus Heresy lore so that doesn't count. Still funny how that made them more likable to me and directly as your point stated, the SM getting some L's would make them more likable.
Yeah some reasaonable L's make a faction all the better. I'm a Dark Angels fan a player who generally dislikes the blood angels and ultramarines because they vaunted as so perfect. Meanwhile I will 100% make exceptions and say that I love Lamenters and Celestial Lions because they lost and got their shit kicked in before dying or regrouping.
Even if the chapter is left struggling and rebuilding to keep model sales, losses and meaningful ones are important. another good example is Raven Guard and Imperial Fists. First born like the others I mentioned but they have had their asses beat before spitting out blood and going for round 2 in a way ultramarines and blood angles, until the devastation of ball, rarely do. Hell to me the most metal things Blood Angles ever did was renegades and loyalist chapters across the entire lineage coming to defend Baal because they were *losing and losing badly*
I'm a big lore fiend who just came to this video off the back of Lutiens new Octarius war part 2 lore video.
There was a story there that exemplifies my problem with he space Marines right now lore wise.
There was this genuinely fun tale about a forge world, one that was being attacked in alternation by Orks and Tyranid. Until both committed to an attack at the same time and started this desperate three way brawl. It was genuinely interesting listening to the horrors of the imperium being broken down as two different xenos battled for scraps in some chaotic mess. The interplay of Orks and Tyranid fighting over the scraps of a dying world, with the genuine drama of the Adpetus Mechanicus weighing the option of burrying its sacred knowledge and going scorched earth on the planet.
But then the Black Templar showed up.
And I could physically feel the energy get sucked out of the story.
To Lutiens credit he delivered it as brilliantly as he always does, but I already knew how events would now play out, because it has over... And over again.
-Space Marines show up
-Space Marines push back filthy Xenos
-Filthy Xenos unveil new super weapon and turn the tide for the killing blow by surprise!
-Space Marines have a deul with xenos leader, narrowly win, and repel the attack at 'great cost'.
Sure enough, verbatim, that was what happened and I was immediately sucked out of what was otherwise a good story. Later there was a story that was an interesting one to me, detailing the never ending cyclical rivalry of the Swarmlord and Ork Overfiend, and how they're trapped in a cycle of adapting and killing one another, and that was genuinely cool, because the space Marines didn't get involved, and as a result I didn't know where the story was going until the very end.
That's the problem with Space Marines to me, I still love them and Black Templar remain my favorite chapter.
So why does them showing up suck out the energy of a story?
Because it's *boring*
I know how it's going to end, the tropes been done to death like it has in novel after novel.
Space Marines make a story instantly boring and predictable to me.
Just .. Let them lose or, something, so I can't predict a stories outcome the moment they show up.
I feel like some of the disdain for Space Marines comes from the whole Ultramarines Matt Ward days.
The impeccable chapter that did some impossible things and still had enough Marines for the next wake adventure.
Even have a Primarch. I think they should do a book where Calgar dies; he has been a round for a long time as shows that the ultramarine are not immortal. Then maybe make Cato Sicarius the new chapter master but maybe he is coping from grief and ends mentorship, showing them to be more human ish.
Some books that are cool for space Marines enjoyed, which have them lose or at least kind of a stalemate, is the Silent Hunters. A Space Sharks book, but it's not a massive war. Obviously, these few Marines clap a lot of cheeks, but that are kinda smart about it.
Space Marines are never going ti leave the knight. But I think if people just read more of the other eaces books thyr will take notice.
1 more book recommendation - Twice Dead King series. It's about Necrons and Flayers, and it's like shakespearian tragedy but robo Egyptians. It's going to be a 3 book series. Currently 2 are out, Ruin and Reign.
Honestly, with the Infinite and the Divine and the Twice Dead King books, Necrons are in pretty good shape right now. I never expected them to get not only 1, but 3 pretty good books, but they made me a necron fan, which I never actually expected to happen, as even though the Necrons and Eldar were how I found out about 40k, the Necrons never really interested me before I read these.
There was also the one chapter called The Invaders who took out a whole ass Eldar Craftworld. Granted, it was already weakened, but that shouldn't have been possible for a single chapter to do.
You could do an Fall of the Eldar book that's similar to 2004 Battlestar Galactica, constantly on the run with enemies hunting them down, looking for a safe harbour with every lost battle meaning a loss of resources they can't get back. I think people would love it. Plus you could flesh out Great crusade factions like the Rangdan, Laer cults or Fra'el as the the main bad guys looking to exploit the fleeing, weakened craftworld
What makes me agnriest about stormcast is that they wouldnt have been out of place at all in the ol WHFB setting GIVE ME BACK KARL FRANZ
God I want Karl back so bad
I gotta say as a Necron player I feel this so hard, but also i love that my space marines are an exception to your lore rule in that every time the Imperial Fists show up the chapter gets almost entirely wiped out. Also you can't have a War in Heaven arc because where would the space marines be? It would make the Necrons and Eldar too cool.
The craziest moment is seeing a picture of some Space Marines versus Eldar in a codex and realizing “those are new space marine UNITS versus the same old Eldar unit that’s been on the shelves for 20 years.”
It isn’t just that Marines are getting new models to replace the old ones. It’s that they’re getting new units full stop.
Meanwhile, everyone else is waiting to become the antagonists of the next edition to get new units or updated models.
Personally I also really dislike that 90% of their characters are always like "ahhh brother this", "ahh, heretic that". They are always saying the same crap.
"Purge all xenos" said captain suckadickus of the Golden Urinal chapter.
"Indeed, brother. May the emperor smile upon us" answered lieutenant Yodus Ketaminent.
"Throne, have you seen my keys? I think I have dropped them here. Curses on the heretics." Suddenly said sergeant Smallius Dik.
It ends up being annoying.
Meanwhile guardsmen are screaming “I don’t wanna die” and “god emperor please help me” and “aaaaa” so much more realistic
I mean there is more character than that amongst marines but the biggest issue is its not promoted and shown among the sea of Ultramarines and Black Templars. Sure Dark Angels hate xenos and imperial fists orcs, but DA are still hard into the imperial truth and clash with the others a lot with their duty before everything mentality. White Scars are even more jarring and interesting with their views and methods but they all get subsumed into the overwhelming view of "religious super soldier"
@@Noble6Espeo no, like, I get it. I like factions like White Scars, Salamanders and (sometimes, when the writer is not an idiot) Space Wolves. But it is very annoying when I am reading a very interesting book about the Night Lords and the Space Marines or the Blood Angels just skidaddle into the setting spouting the same crap. It is a pity, I really like Guilliman, but his faction gives me stomach ache sometimes.
@@Shkrie well bud the same logic can be applied with other genres too, for example star wars, alot of Sith Lords act high and mighty and even incompetent, not to mention always having such huge egos. Not saying all are. But it just so happens to be a thing too much. The point is space marines are supposed to be intimating and also full of wisdom too, but are sometimes religious.
@@vothbetilia4862 yeah, i understand. But my point is that they are usually characterized pumping the religion factor to eleven, thus making it their only character trait. It's not just "sometimes religious" like you say, it's giving a very interesting faction the deepness of a sheet of paper. That is my problem.
I said before that the Eldar are the Security Chief Warf of 40k.
Constant lip-service paid to their incredible potency, so whenever you need to show off that a new character is extra cool you have them beat an Eldar.
One of my things is that the Black Templar constantly go on crusade, seemingly ignoring the fact that the crusades all failed.
Totally agree. Sadly while Worf eventually got chances to be more badass in DS9 and First Contact, the Eldar have never been able to advance past this stage. The wankery of the Space Marines and the general usage of the "Humanity Speshul!" trope in Warhammer 40k is one of the reasons I find it difficult to get into compared to Warhammer Fantasy (which generally balanced its races better, though the Empire, Dwarfs and High Elves certainly got a majority of novels), though that's just an opinion.
My biggest issue with the Marines is that they’re… kind of boring.
Most chapters are just kind of disconnected from the actual population of the imperium, to the point where all the talk of fighting for humanity is kind of hollow. Marines almost by definition don’t have lives outside of being warriors. They don’t have families, they don’t have ambitions beyond martial prowess, and they don’t often interact with people who do.
I think that’s part of why marine losses often don’t feel very impactful. When guardsmen die, it’s a tragedy. When marines die, it’s a glorious culmination of their lives as purpose-crafted warriors.
There’s a few exceptions, like the ultramarines, but even they are the stand-outs simply by virtue of like, caring about *humanity* instead of just *the imperium*.
Really agree with you on this one, is the reason I got turned off to 40k so hard and mainly put all my love into Fantasy.
To add a bit on that, was even saying to myself a few day's ago "Is the Imperium really losing? Cause sure you say they are but they do seem to only win. Even with the whole 'great cost' shtick, just kinda makes it not very believable to me at least. Great video, can't wait to see more from you, you're fantastic!
I’m completely a space marine lover. And I agree with you. There needs to be a lot more for everyone else. While I love my marines to death I definitely do have like 3 times more toys to play with than the next 3 most numerous factions. I can sit around for a few years while everyone plays catch up.
7:39 With the Tau I think they actually get a fair amount of attention from Black Library compared to other none imperial factions. The Rogue Trader series was about the Imperium discovering and fighting the Tau during the Damocles Gulf Crusade, they were fighting extremely evenly against the Imperium in Blades of Damocles, the Farsight novels kick total ass and hell War of Secrets was just a Tau book with Dark Angel Camouflage.
The only thing I could possibly ask for when it comes to Tau is books having them fight factions that *aren't* the Imperium or Orks. What about Eldar, Dark Eldar- hell I don't think I've ever seen a Tau novel where they fight the Tyranids even though thats a major reason why the Imperium decided to keep them around so they could act as a buffer.
The Tau hate the dark eldar. There’s a story where the DE eldar help the Tau against Tyranids. The grateful Tau Agree to send some folks as “cultural exchange”… yada yada … an entire Tau world is abducted.
There are 4 main "tau" books all focused on Farsight. 2 anthology books that have a combine 2 stories in it focused on tau. There are 3 main title necron books 1 which is on the way. Eldar have over 11, orks have 6. This is only counting where there main protagonist is that species and they're not the villain of the week for the imperium.
@@gregorde I've heard of it but damn it I wish we got a novel centered on it
@@gregorde To be fair... _everyone_ hates the Dark Eldar (although calling them 'Dark Eldar' is misleading - we should probably be calling the Craftworld Eldar the "Goody-two-shoes Eldar", or something, since they were the exception in Eldar culture pre-Slaanesh 🤷♂️)
I honestly want to see books about the t'au's gue'vesa or humans that joined, born into or were annexed by these them. Maybe a series of novels that go into detail of the lives and perspectives of roughly three gue'vesa characters. Imagine one that's follows the life of a guardsman whose unit was captured by the t'au and were given the opportunity to serve and seeing as their commisar had...conveniently *'died in battle'* decided to take them up on that offer. Another could be about charaters who are generations removed from Imperium rule, having lived under the t'au's influence their whole lives, what's it like to be raised under an ideology from another species. And finally some books about similar born and raised gue'vesa maybe a character for both of the t'au empires OG and Farsight's respectively that's undergoing their first war campaigns, ideally against Imperium worlds and seeing the otherside, seeing fellow humans that have been raised to hate the xenos and the heretics that they and their t'au comrades are to them, maybe try to convince them otherwise with mixed results.
Also I want a coupl books about a badass gue'vesa commander and his t'au and kroot friends as they find themselves in the employe of an especially eccentric rogue trader.
I find the space wolves the most relatable and human chapter of them all, there stories are very nicely written and there the only chapter to give the middle finger to the inquisition and have the balls to stand up to them when a whinny inquisitor doesn’t get to genocide the people of Armageddon, there charcters are quite distinct from the wise beyond years bjorn the fell handed to the benevolent yet brutal leader Logan grimnar to the brazen and brash krom dragon gaze, the shitposter Lukas the trickster to the quick learning young hero of Ragnar blackmane, the only people that don’t like the wolves are the ones who have never read there stories, don’t judge a book by its cover because these guys are one of the best marine chapter out there.
I loved the space wolves for telling the inquisitor to fuck off, esp because i love armageddon steel legion, and plan to ally both at some point
@@skree272 make sure to get logan grimnar in there as he was the lad that killed that POS inquisitor.
@@ka1juhunt3r prolly will, my wolves are currently lead by a fan oc, Kodran Icegrip
The Space Wolves telling the Inquisition to get bent is cool, but the entirety of the rest of the Months of Shame is some of the most brainless lore ever written for 40k. The Grey Knights in general have arguably the worst-written, most nonsensical, least intelligent lore in the entire setting - and certainly not dumb in a deliberate fun way like the Orks.
Ong, fuck the inquisition.
This is why I'll always give Nick Kyme his flowers, because he actually lets the Salamanders in 40k lose and lose hard. His last book that wasn't Horus Heresy came out a decade ago, but BOTH groups of Salamanders the story follows fail at their missions. Yet, some of the characters do succeed in small, personal ways - Captain Agatone gives up on his mission but saves a very interesting human who he ends up taking back home. An adopted ex-Black Dragon and a Techmarine who start off hating each other are brothers through and through by the end. An old and anxious Captain finds a new purpose in life after he's betrayed, swearing revenge on the Sisters of Battle as his destroyed body is dragged off the battlefield. That is what I want more of when it comes to the Space Marines. Hurt the chapters more. Heal the characters more. Also, more imperium vs imperium conflict!
"Delete the Space Wolves"
Mega based I 100% agree
Man I thought I was the only one who hated them.
@@andrebonds4199 I am not deep into 40K but are they equivalent to Edgy Gary Stus?
@@Predator20357 Yes
They are the fantasy of a 12 year old...
...which is an issue when you stop beeing 12 years old.
@@Scarletraven87 and how many wolves novels have you read?
One thing about the Tau origin is that it’s heavily implied to be distorted in myth to give the Ethereals validity. I think the War in Heaven is way more important to flesh out, but as a Tau fan, I would love to see that part of history revealed to be far different from what the modern Tau know.
More interesting would be if the Etherals lied on it not for the sake of power or anything like that, but distorting history soley for the greater good of all beings
@@calebbarnhouse496 "Look, we can't tell them the truth. If we did, the Empire shatters and while the common caste on the street doesn't know how bad the Galaxy is, We do. Do we need to know the truth? Yes, without it we cannot see how far we have to go for the Greater Good sometimes. Does anyone, literally anyone outside the chroniclers of our caste need to know? No. I'd say most among our own caste can not know it, lest it slip out. We must keep such knowledge to the Enlightened ones only." - Tau Ethereal if GW cared to write them better, speaking on the truth of how the Tau united.
Now if that sounds awfully familiar to the reasons behind [Redacted by order of the Inquisition] to you? Good. You have been paying attention.
@Sorain1 which would make the tau dark in a way that is perfect for them, they don't have to have a very inconsistent rule set of how much control the ethereal have, and it allows the ethereals to have A skeleton in there closet while remaining actual contrasts to how the tau work, If you've ever played 40k Gladius tau story you'd see in that game they treat the ethereal control like way blatant mind control to the point where your guy wants to help his freind/lady that likes him romantically rebel, but instead swaps a switch that kills all of there auxiliary forces on the planet as well as everyone else
@@calebbarnhouse496 Yeah, I really, REALLY disliked the way that was setup. Tau works best as a contrast to the rest and a sort of 'throwback to what the Imperium was during the Great Crusade' faction. The Ethereals doing straight up mind control just doesn't work as well as having a very careful watch for deviance, solid charisma, a broadly applicable world view to sell... and some shady skeletons in their closet that causes internal issues within their caste. The parallel of 'redacting stuff to protect the people' would work nicely and let people consider that the Inquisition likely started out that way too and we know where that lead.
Tau's position thematically should be the rising power that rhymes with humanity's own rise in the past. That includes the specter that they could end up going the way of pre age of strife humanity or full on Imperium level evil as they have to face the horrors of 40k's setting and make the same hard choices about dealing with it.
i mean you think about it, tau would be perfect for novels, they're the underdogs of the setting, and they're new so they're good for newcomers as an audience surrogate to the horrors of the galaxy
Because every faction that isn't Space Marines feels like it only exists to give Space Marines someone cool to fight against, or as a faction for the space marines to save.
I just want the funny internet video to work man.
What?
@@tycurry6799 He just the funny internet video to work.
@@wrigglenightbug8679 Ight lemme try again, what?
@@tycurry6799 he just want the funny internet video to work
I just think they're extremely overexposed for how vanilla they are. The most interesting thing about space marines is the process of becoming a space marine. Once you get past that literally every other imperium faction (and even the chaos marines) is more interesting, flavorful, and unique than space marines.
I think there is alot of flavor in the marines but they never get a light exposed to them (relative to the exposure the vanilla boys get). Like Ultramarines and all their successors are great, kinda, but where I the love for the Carcaridons, Minitours, Unforgiven Dark Angel shinnanigans, Imperial Fist stubbornness, etc. There are so many chapter with interesting character that just get washed out in favor of UM or don't have their most interesting points explored in favor of their niche materials.
Like Where are all the books about White Scars and Ravenguard or the clash between the chapters still into the Imperial Truth vs the wider imperium? And where did all the Guard flavor go while we're at it?
I remember reading a halo book where the first chapter was about 300 Spartans where sent to on a mission and only like 2 of em survived. Seeing how op these Spartans are and that many died in just the initial assault makes it depressing because no matter how good they were a couple of well placed attacks will decimate the enemy. If they did something like that for space marines it be cool to see
RIP the 598 Spartan-III's of operations PROMETHEUS and TORPEDO.
@@S3Cs4uN8 600?! Are you shitting me, you telling me I underfuckingsold it
@@danklord4315 There were two operations, each consisting of 300 deployed S-III's, all were killed in the first mission (PROMETHEUS) and only 2 survivors walked away from the second (TORPEDO).
There were another 300 S-III's that were intended for a third operation but they were never deployed iirc.
I can’t forgive this video for the blatant dark souls 2 favoritism and slanderous denial of Dark Souls 3’s thematic intent.
I’ve never played warhammer and only just recently started consuming 40k content. Stumbled across your channel via RUclips recommendations. I’m now several videos deep, mid binge and you’ve just earned a new subscriber.
Kill off a homeworld of one of the Major Factions. Have Leman Russ come back only to watch Magnus Destroy Fenris. Blow up the Phalanx.
My introduction to Warhammer was the Space Marine game. Love it. Then a buddy showed me fan animations like Astartes and I really liked em. Then I started watching lore videos and meme videos. Warhammer is really cool. I still have much to learn but I'm happy I'm here.
Space Marines are awesome, don't get me wrong. They're a fantastic part of the setting. They're just so overdone compared to everyone else in my opinion.
@@pancreasnowork9939 understandable
I remember that when I started getting into 40K as a kid, what struck me was how in the lore, space marines were close to invincible... and then you put them on the table, and sure, they are more powerful than their enemies on a 1v1 basis, but significant numbers of them still end up getting killed by stupid orks that they would have wiped the floor with in any book.
I always thought that space marines should not have been a separate faction. There should be an Imperium faction, with mostly imperial guards, and you can deploy one or so unit of space marines, and they're absolutely overpowered. That would represent the lore much better.
Honestly, putting them in the Guard would be a lot more cool and tactically make sense. Have them be Ogryns on combat stims.
From the perspective of being able to identify with the protagonists, the Imperial Guard make the most sense for a novel. The only difference between you and an Imperial Guardsman is that you haven't signed on with them.
As someone with only a khorne army I definitely have seen the favoritism. Cuz for all the chaos gods it's like "you get 5 units, best I can do". And due to the lack of the units working well together the best strategy is to just mass bloodletters. Please give chaos some more variety. It's cool what we got but I know there is room for so much more.
For instance for khorne, the skull cannon/throne is exactly the sort of aesthetic you could run with. More forgeborn constructs to bring into battle. I mean I guess we have the cool dark mechanicus stuff that's khornate but like give me more stuff my daemons can ride in on. And for that matter just give me some names daemons and lore on them. Give me more stories like Tuska the daemon Killa. Because this is exactly the aesthetic of khorne. He should have great champions from all myriad of races and times.
GW: Did you say? Please spam bloodletters!? Oh boy will you like the new combat patrol
(Just memeing here ofc)
The only stories I can think of where Marines get their shit pushed in is the Fall of Damnos where the Ultras get overrun by Necrons, or the Devestation of Baal where, let's face it, a bunch of faceless Blood Angel successors died and old man Dante lived after fighting a Swarm lord.
That's what I mean by meaningful. No one of importance ever dies and the supposed severe losses are fixed away almost immediately.
Problems with Space marines:
-for a supposedly super elite force they are everywhere in the lore and on the tabletop to the point where there are half a dozen variants of SM that are even more elite than regular marines
-Them being all male is a stupid relic of 80s and 90s sci fi
-Them being fearless is bad for the lore and the game. Lorewise it makes them difficult to empathize with or write since they don't experience things in a relatable way. Tabletop wise making roughly half the armies in the game immune to morale kinda invalidates the mechanic.
Storm of Iron is my favourite book (as my name would suggest) not only do the Imperial Fists lose (granted they don't contribute any significant numbers) but they lose hard once Hydra Cordatus falls.
In the time it took Eldar to get one partial range update space marines got at least two, new variants, and a relaunch. At the very least they make me not dislike the stormcasts as much as I probably would if they had a similar release schedule, not to mention not nearly as much plot armor
If you want marines from important chapters losing, there was the time Captain Sicarius of the Ultramarines actually got humiliated by the Tau. The Tau Commander even took the time to say to his face that he could easily tell his troops to snipe his apothecaries and destroy the geneseed they were collecting but he didn't do it because he believed in honor. He even threw in his face that the Ultramarines value courage and honor yet he hasn't seen any of it. Sicarius survived since they let him go but that was probably worse than killing him.
Then there was the time he and his company got stuck in the warp with a half working gellar field in Knights of Macragge. It got so bad that they couldn't properly power their armor and weapons all the time. They had to make due with make shift spears and even go into battle without their armor against the hordes of daemons. Sicarius was so disturbed by it he had to get therapy from one of the serfs since his chaplain got killed. Now at the end of the book they did win but it came at a heavy cost. It was so bad that in the current time, Sicarius essentially has PTSD from the event since he still hears the screams of his men and remarks that he never thought Space Marines could die like that.
I just think that they need to lose some more like some major character deaths at the hands to make them seem more reasonable. I love space marines but man is it hard to see beyond the lore aspect of it.
Even as a space marine player I agree. Ultramarines got their Primarch back and basically have a Legion? Cool, kill of Calgar. He's useless and a reminder of the bullshit the UM pull every other day.
Devestation of Baal? I like that story except for where primaries fixed everything. Wheres the story about how these newbies arent's stacking up to the firstborne they replaced?
2:00
You can't hide that Rise of Nations soundtrack from me.
Great video, you just got a subscriber :D
So when I got back into 40k after an 8 years break, I was really interested in exploring what it would be like to be a common citizen of the imperium during a chaos invasion. It’s one thing to have hundreds of books and games devoted to the power fantasy of being a space marine, it’s another to have a much more relatable story about trying to make your way through the hardest life you could possibly have when suddenly your friends and family start getting ripped from the inside out by demons. And in your sheer terror, when all hope is lost, you see giant walking humans in armor coming to save you, draped in a religious and divine aura. In that moment the space marines would truly feel like the angels of death, coming to save you.
I maybe wrong. But wouldn't the player character be executed for knowing about/being in contact with chaos. The whole "tainted".
Might make for a tragic ending.
But I agree with you some more grounded stuff like you mentioned would be nice.
@@thecruzking Yeah I was just thinking a story like that would probably end with the marines purging the very people they were trying to save lol. Which fits 40k.
That’d be a very short story that ends in an extremely brutal death. Either by Chaos or the Space Marines since even seeing a Daemon makes you tainted and a major threat to the Imperium.
Imagine Magnus does some warp shenanigans to summon a hive fleet right next to Fenris. The nids reestablish synaptic control over the krakens and procede to absolutely wreck the place
Ohhhhh man another video. Thanks man,I really see a lot of progress and work with this. And I mean this with the most upmost respect when I say this, because I love your channel and Warhammer. But I also know you as well have a extended love for history like me and love getting to explain those moments. I recommend and I know it can't go wrong to get in touch with Lazerpig. I feel like your content would get a major boost and would produce a very very entertaining video. Thanks again, stay safe mate, we need these amazing videos thanks homie
theyre a bit overplayed. super ultra badasses can be cool but if theyre nearly always front and center the shine wears off, they stop being special, which is an unfortunate fate in its own way. i think there is a significant possibility that the primaris may have some kind of achilles heel, probably void dragon of mars related, which would need correcting, threatening the stability of marine chapters and damaging caul's credibility
Sci-fi/fantasy setting writers when informed that "big guy with a sword" has been common for over 20 years now and is no longer cool: 😭😭😭
Im glad to hear someone echoing a thought I thought I'd been going crazy for having. How is the imperium in a losing war when literally everything they do is win.
I think that started sinking in around the psychic awakening, when space marines bomb the god of wizards to death, and a rando space wolf lobs off the head of the most powerful ork in the setting with no problem.
also, the time Cato Sicarius and a small handful of ultramarines wiped out a entire tomb world and Cato one-shot a shard of a god. Like, you know they went and retconned damnos because it was one of the extremely few times space marines were allowed to LOSE.
“heresy this, heresy that, why don’t you just go out and get some pu-“
-Some chaos marine idk
As a Tau player I’ve always been confused on the lack of variety of troops since the Tau are supposed to have equal or greater technology than the Imperium. Tech advancement, especially for military tech, is made through lots of trail and error, both in the equipment itself and how it’s used. Like IFVs can trace their need back to trucks and the need for armored vehicles to drive infantry into battle. That caused the development of APCs which worked for a bit before realizing they’re kind of useless if the enemy has any tanks or anti tank weapons. So they slapped an auto cannon and missile system onto a light tank body expanded to be an APC creating a pseudo tank that could protect infantry from almost anything. Throughout this development hundreds of prototypes and production vehicles were thought up and made, with varying success. And that’s just one vehicle type. So how have the Tau only have three basic infantry weapons, one heavy infantry weapon, one drone system that just steals from other systems, and essentially the same mech suit just enlarged or shrunk down over the course of a couple hundred years??? Almost all of the changes that have happened have been to the systems themselves and not the core equipment, which is ok in the short term but eventually things are going to get outdated. So really the only explanation is this and the general Tau hate. Although GW has gotten better with new Tau updates as of late so maybe their getting better?
I was looking forward to the song, you didn't need to cut that out.
I recently found out about the Astral Knight chapter of space marines, and really like their lore because their chapter basically sacrificed themselves to achieve their goal of destroying a Necron World Engine, which is a nice change of pace from the lore of other chapters.
I think part of why the Space Marines almost always win is because in whatever story they appear in, 9 times out of 10 they are the viewpoint characters. The story gets told from their perspective. As such, even when they get bodied, it's still a pyrrhic victory for them. All but a couple of the marines involved die, but they still technically win. GW cannot help themselves putting the audience into the Space Marine perspective, and that skews the authorial scales in their favor.
The ultimate source of this is GW's general proclivity to make Humanity - or rather the Imperium - the default viewpoint for 40K. Vanishingly few stories put the Imperium in the antagonist role, that non-Imperium characters need to deal with. (Notable exception that proves the rule: the Necron novel Twice Dead King: Ruin. When the Imperium shows up, they are properly terrifying.)
Which is really the answer to how one fixes the Space Marines: give more equal narrative representation to people who aren't the Imperium of Man.
That why liked the story about the fall of the Diasporex a nomadic fleet of humans AND aliens that were descended from what were basically some pre-Age of Strife interstellar merchant fleets. And while that tale is told mostly through the perspective of SPACE marines rather than present their view as ultimately justified instead it shows just how utterly narrow minded, bigoted, and utterly brainwashed these roided up fanatics encased in plates of cold ceramite actually are. To them, the very concept of *""xenos""* and full bloodied humans actually coexisting peacefully is inconceivable, that their world view is based on the unquestioned notion that species cannot live together AND be roughly equals, at the very least they'd expect one species among them to dominate all others whether it be the 'misguided' but rightfully dominant humans even if they should have killed all the xenos (as if that's just a forgone conclusion to the marines) or the filthy non human creatures enslaving poor humans to be liberated, *there's no in between with them* which is why they found the Diasporex particularly bizarre. They challenged their (the Space Marines) deeply held beliefs and for their crime of existing, in the eyes of the propaganda drenched super soldiers they had to be destroyed even though doing so served no greater strategic purpose but it was all about preserving the dogmatic narrative; *"there can be no peace, this is how it must be with ever non human thing we encounter because if that wasn't the case then who really is humanity's worst enemy, us?"*
for space marines losing, since they're not usually active in more than groups of 10 or so (right???) why not just mention space marine squads getting wiped out more. Like a squad came to help the imperial guard secure a facility and have the squad all die or just take casualties and have to pull out. Throw in a couple events where space marines lose a whole company or two and you're golden.
honestly space marines should NOT have been their own faction, they should be a small allied attachment to imperial guard, sisters of battle, or inquisitor faction. Have storm troopers take the place of space marines during most operations, maybe introduce better tech for them to compensate for this fact as well
While I agree with this it shouldn't be a mention that xenos win and that's it like how it almost always is, it should be a full story where the xenos win for once
I want a book where the Ultras lose, the Eldar bail them out, the Lamenters have to complete the Ultras original mission, and, with the help of the Guardsmen, they do. Not to hate on the Ultras, but to help them be interesting by not having then win by default
after watching this i now badly want a novel series for the war in heaven.
The Night Lords omnibus is the exception. Sure it's still about space marine winning but it's the CHAOS space marine, even then most of it are pyrrhic victories. One time with the help of Red Corsair, they managed to score a major win againts a loyalist chapter. Overall highly recommended series to read.
Chaos Space marines are just as bad. GW have been long replacing everything cool and interesting about chaos and just make is space marines with pointier armor. you rarely ever hear about anything that has to do with chaos anymore that isn't just chaos space marines even though there is SUPPOSED to be even less of them then even regular SMs.
that dark souls 2 opinion was fire
I think a great example of what you're talking about was War Zone Fenris, the SW got absolutely smashed by Magnus. Loads of dead marines, planets destroyed oh and now they're back at full strength thanks to Cawl.
I just figure that people dislike space Marines for one main reason. It’s the same reason Space Marine fans may not like the Ultramarines. They’re the poster child and face of the franchise that, while cool, are only a fraction of the whole universe. It’s like when you got watch a super hero movie and the one hero you like is slotted as a side character.
I can’t wait for that FTL review. Been enjoying all your videos lately
What I hate about them is that they have this huge model range and their models still feel the same I don't know the difference between a captain in Gravis armor and one in phobos armor. Stormcast suffer from the same problem btw
Yeah, I know. I feel like it shouldn't be THIS hard to make unique looking models for different space marine chapters in terms of their shapes while still adhering to the whole armored truck on legs design of them.
Hold on can we talk about that Dark Souls 2 comment being right because that is 100% how I have felt for years and always felt like I was the crazy one
You're not crazy, people love to hammer on DS2's weaker world building, rather boring "dude in armor" style bosses and the dreaded soul memory which are all completely fair criticisms that I personally agree with - but like a game of telephone that criticism becomes devoice of any nuance and sooner or later you'll end up with folks on Reddit claiming it is "universally accepted" that DS2 was an awful game - which is completely and utter bullshit.
In terms of itemisation, gameplay mechanics, PvP, DLC, NG+, customisation, build viability and even performance DS2 was an absolutely massive step forward from DS1 and laid the groundwork for what the more modern and polished Souls games would looks like. People take so much that DS2 did for granted, and its a shame. It managed to kill the turtling that plagued DS1 by not simply nerfing sword and board but instead addressing the viability issues of dual wielding. That alone earns it heaps of praise.
DS2 is a great addition to the souls library and I will die on that hill.
"Wipe out the Space Wolves" a man after my own heart.
The halo music in the background really brought up some nostalgia. Then terria. Then FTL. You have a good taste in games.
Love Spacemarines but to me they should be portrayed as brutal psychopathic killing machines that are few in numbers, I want stories where the spacemarines are the antagonists in a story.
The fall of the Diasporex is a rather interesting take on this, sure it's still mostly viewed from the perspectives of space marines but their thinking is presented in a way that feels utterly alien, it reminds me of just how brainwashed and indoctrinated they really are because the foes they are fighting just wanted to be left alone but because they not only were xenos but having the gaul to be a society of xenos AND humans mixed and mingled, living together, coexisting peacefully was something inconceivable to the astartes, offensive because it defied their assumptions and challenged their beliefs. For once the ethos of the Imperium was put into a critical analysis that would make even the most fanitical xenophobes have to ask uncomfortable questions about their doctrine and about themselves...well would have if they didn't just double down on the hate mantras.
@@navilluscire2567 that’s cool, might read that book or whatevs
Love you so much man ! Please keep up the good work
Seeing the Aeldari in 30k would be amazing, you have a faction that is recovering from the destruction of their empire, fending off the Great Crusade while trying to figure out how they adapt to the new paradigm when they have been used to just leeroy Jenkins because lol what are you gonna, do kill me? I'm immortal bitch.
Straight up make a bunch of new craftworlds that have unique suicidal tactics. Aeldari are Prideful "we don't have to change because we are the strongest, you can't stand before our might!"
I think if they started writing about space marines losing battles and stuff could really portray how the empire is falling
I want to mention, the thing about how space marines have a lot of models, well, yeah, because space marines, like humans, are very diverse.
I'm an Ork player, and ork diversity is basically size related, be that their gun or their body. Meanwhile there's a stark difference between the Black Templars and Salamanders.
Yeah, because Tyrades are not diverse at all, it's not like they can evolve in a matter of days to produce a new bioform :p
Also, no, there's not a stark contrast between the Black Templars and the Salamanders, the only difference in the model is the paint. And Orks Kultures have as much difference betw them than the superficial differences between the different Space Marine chapters, but they don't get a codex each XD
@@krankarvolund7771 Nids don't have diverse personalities.
@@Blundabus1337 We're playing a miniature wargame, not a novel or an RPG XD
@@krankarvolund7771 I get it, I like space marines and have a Salamander army myself, but I just wanted to say that RPGs have been part of the 40k experience for ages. I just finished a Dark Heresy 2e game and I'm running Wrath and Glory next week. The fluff matters a great deal for folks like me and my rpg friends. Homebrew lore is great, of course, but it's just not the same as well-designed canon. 🤷♀️
@@poilaaliop The RPG exists since a long time, but it was never as successful as the wargame.
And well designed canon? Warhammer 40k lore is a lot of things but well written, rarely 😅
I’m happy you pointed out most of the problems when it comes to Space Marines, because of how popular they are and how much exposure they got from fans or being spoiled all too often I got sick of the Imperium because the Space Marines. Like you said, it would be a breath of fresh air to see them lose instead of being looked at as these OP Super Soldiers that never loses.
You nailed the reason why I won’t get into W40K. It feels like it’s all about Space Marines at everybody else’s expense.
In Age of Sigmar (which I play) the Stormcast Eternals gets treated like every other army. There are no favorites there.
It would be funny if they made a book where a bunch of space marines are losing horribly and need to request backup from guard to save them instead of other way around (unless it already happened and if it did I’m not all that surprised)
The notion of a "beginner army" for a hobby as expensive as 40k is ludicrous. You should carefully pick which army you're going to collect because you're gonna be dropping hundreds of dollars on them at least.
It's the same scam as a "starter house". Of course the people who sell stuff want you to buy something inadequate to your future needs so you'll buy again later. When you sell things that last a lifetime, infinite growth is only possible if everyone buys multiple times.