Duskhaven is very much a victim of feature creep. At first it was to improve the tech on the back end and make everything nicer. Then it was them wanting to improve classes. THen it was wanting to do the DF talent trees. Like I really liked what old duskhaven had because it was interested in adding new content and playstyles but its been so long that keeping interest is hard at time especially when updates almost never happen.
It will be fun when it's out and working. But the main problem is that all the good WoW projects are ways out, around 5 of them. And we want to play something now, not later. I seen druid stuff at it looks good. Just sucks waiting for good projects.
Nothing wrong with feature creep when it comes to Vanilla+ WoW, its better than coming out with too many changes at once. Turtle WoW has done it really well imo. Yes some people think 1.17.2 was too many changes, but I absolutely love it.
@@nicksalvatore5717 that isnt feature creep. Feature creep is when you make so many changes or try adding so much stuff that nothing gets done and it keeps pushing the release back
I played Duskhaven and level a enh shaman to max and got to hyjal and stuff it was really fun I loved how stupidly broken Stormstrike was with 2H weapon basically one shotting every mob. I hope they re-release the server it had tons of good ideas.
I played a tank shaman. It was an absolute blast. Elemental bulwark could 1 shot clothies in pvp and it was hilarious 🤣 They had the greatest version of shaman on any server
Duskhaven was so much fun! Had a tinker I was raiding MC with and was leveling a monk and bard when they decided to bring down the servers. If it comes out and has the polish of something like Turtle WoW, it's going to do SO well.
I miss feral from duskhaven, little changes they made in talnets was fun and making swipe deal more damage plus apply bleed was so good. Tanking was fun too with barkskin dealing damage like thorns
Dang man, i remember bard release and the first wave of 60 monks and how we completely obliterated everything with heals/dps XD That stuff was such a blast. Having put around 300 hours into duskhaven when it was out, I will say even before the team upgrade, the devs were incredible, and I would say we are in good hands once they are ready!
-Stop you're making me feel old! -Also with talents it is a bit tough on Vanilla/TBC/Wrath players for people that don't play games like PoE. But I played a lot of CoA so I'm gonna be fine with it and since it's still classes so it shouldn't be too hard as a druid compared to a fully custom class like Starcaller. So for people that played CoA I assume it will be a more easier time to understand than CoA first was. -Hyped for the beta!
Yeah Duskhaven will def have its own permanent niche community im sure.. I avoid classic wow like a plague but mainly because i dont need to see the same Stormwind i saw when i was 12. Base wow is a perfect game so adding updated features is all i wanted. like stormwind should look like a FULL city and not a corner market. Deadmines can have bigger caveways etc. also Tank shaman Drawf hopefully is always a plus.
Duskhaven was my favorite Private server. I still think about it from time to time. Wish they just kept the server up while they worked on the reforfed version.
mcdoubs as I wait for poe2 and delta force, I've been watching skyrim graphics modded content and I was like man I never played skyrim and only ever heard good things. would be cool to see you do a play through with the graphic mods. ur one of my favorite content creators. Hope all is well brother
When i first saw the wow trees i was instantly turned off from even trying to build my DK. I played a lot of meh level pvp in retail and came in during MoP. I always get my build off youtube so i didn't think a skill tree woukd effect me much, but just seeing it was daunting and there were a lot of low impact choices that i didn't really wana have to think about for future tuning, so i really just checked out of wow hard in the gameplay sense. Ofc there is more to why i left retail than a class tree, but it was for sure part of the stack. Great video
If it’s not out before Project Epoch and AZAW, it’ll be DOA for me. I really wish they would have just stuck to upping the tech without all these random new features. Duskhaven was awesome it just needed some polish.
Class trees are kind of meh in retail but it's because of their design philosophy in which everything has to be balnd and every class has to be able to do everything and you don't really need to make decisions in your class tree because all the good stuff is at the center instead of at the end. That said I do believe there's potential in them if you add choices that actually affect mechanics of your class and could impact the gameplay of all your specs.
The biggest problem with Duskhaven is communication. If they said, "guys, it's a big project, let us cook and we will make annoucements when we have something to show you", then there would be much less drama and complaints around it. But they are constantly giving themselves new and new deadlines, which they never make, and this obviously upsets their followers. For example PTR has been announced like 5 times already, in last december they said "we need a few more weeks", and during the last missed deadline about 3 months ago they said "it's weeks away". If they don't change this, they will generate more and more unnecessary anger, disappointment and scepticism for their potential playerbase, and the devs will eventually burn out from the constant criticism and hateful messages.
Man. Duskhaven was THE PERFECT Vanilla+ server. Twow is amazing, but I just can't get through the awful fucking XP grind of vanilla WoW. Duskhaven had just the right amount of xp gain for it to not be completely boring but not super fast like Ascension either. I just want to play it again man...
The trouble with talent trees is that no matter how you do it, there will always be some sense of it being cookiecutter, because that's just how meta works, shit some people even call PoE builds "cookiecutter". That flexibility is what made Ascension fun imo, back when it was mostly classless and with the current season. That being said, it's always better to give the players some degree of freedom in their choices even if people can't resist peer pressure to play meta slop, because it's better than giving people prepackaged classes with no choice. At that point, it's beyond cookiecutter, it's fucking factory produced classes. One of the worst things wow ever attempted was MoP's removal of talent trees. They tried to keep in a bit of flexibility with glyphs at the time, but that also was extremely limited, since the devs never wanted to offer more than a few actually useful glyphs to prevent players from feeling FOMO of not using the meta picks.
This, honestly, looks super promising, I'm especially interested if they get the updated animations to work. I would kill for updated animations on ascension/COA.
I’ve turned against the Dragonflight trees. I actually prefer the original classic trees to them and over the MoP style trees as well. What I find funny is that one of the issues with the original trees per blizzard was an “illusion of choice” but the Dragonflight trees quite literally create an illusion of choice. Why are we using half of our talent points to acquire baseline abilities that every single spec and build uses? Makes zero sense. The talent trees should be about customizing gameplay not spending talent points to get baseline abilities that every single spec uses.
This is a side effect of data-mining and number crunches. "Classic" Talents when no one knew anything were fun because of just that, we were stupid and we could do w/e and if someone was better we would be like "oh they have x talent instead of y" now with all the programs we have its why it generates the illusion of choice. They do provide choice though, I play an incredibly off meta build and for the content I do in retail AotC and M10s, it works just fine.
@ I see what you’re saying but frankly the Dragonflight trees don’t even allow choice. Often you are forced down a certain path. At least with the original trees - optimal or not - you could select any talent on a row after putting five points that tree in general. To use Elemental Shaman as an example, after the most recent change, it’s physically impossible to have ANY build without stormkeeper. You literally can’t even put enough points in the tree to pass that node and to make matters worse - they made that node also branch into 3 of the available below - so even if you could - you actually can’t skip that ability, As a 2200 rated Ele shaman that’s a wasted point - I never need it use it. Or worse on frost DK - you can’t play ANY build without frost strike, obliterate, and pillar of frost and yet we are forced to give three points to abilities that are in fact baseline and prior to Dragonflight we’re given to us for free
@@kadix928neither of those abilities are rotational dps abilities nor do they alter gameplay in instanced content. You don’t have a build based around either of those. That’s my point. Customizing your CC or utility spells isn’t really rotation customization choice You physically can’t play a frost death knight build that isn’t centered around pillar of frost. There is no choice. No alternative. Talents should customize or alter gameplay entirely. For example, what if we got a Frost DK build that doesn’t include the ability obliterate and instead converts soul reaper into a big rune spender. There could be alternate cooldowns instead of pillar of frost and a completely different stat priority.
I took this as sarcasm from you so I apologize if you were being serious. In dungeons more mobs are likely to be affected by Dragons Breath over Ring of Frost. In PvP it depends on the map you are playing too. DB is good defensive, RoF can be used to block off a pathway
CoA is definitely missing retail animations and new races playing with those wonky on-repeat animations is getting rather dull at this point and they've shown that they can do it (they ported the entire lizard race/class)
Class tree should be smaller, and make as it is named, class tree. Meaning its more like you used to get all kind of spells for your calss even tho you not using them, but with tree you can make them being useful and be able to alter them to fit gameplay working for you and your spec. For example you can make force of nature to be class talent and then can be used on all specs and maybe gave few nodes to change how it works to fit spec.
With some of the issues that later versions wow versions fixed, I am sort of suprised that there is no cata, or even Legion, custom private servers, that I know of. Obviously there is so much more Research into the 3.3.5a version but I would still love to see Legion+. Also I hope that Duskhaven comes out soon, I didnt try the Tinkerer or the Bard classes and I am curious about all the other additions.
Hey man could you give vanilla plus some love? its actually sick ive been leveling prot pally. I honestly love so much about the leveling. The changes are classic+ to the T. and its still Blizzlike somehow.
Gonna have to disagree with you on DFs trees being superior to the OG tree. The OG trees while in very much need of greater fine tuning in the modern gaming sphere allowed for more diverse choices in building your class around your playstyle by allowing you free reign to choose talents within each spec tree, sure each spec supported certain roles but you weren't hard locked into it forcing you to only play a singular playstyle, people did crazy things with their classes back in the day because the trees allowed that freedom. DFs trees are easier to manage by the devs and make classes to spec and role oriented as that was the direction Cata brought retail into, your playing a class that fulfills a role and not playing your characters class in creative ways in spite of those limitations. Thats why I like Ascension as a Classic+ concept so much, sure the Hero system feels like PoEs buildcrafting in its complexity to figure out what you want to play how your gonna go about doing it along with integrating the right Mystic Enchants to support your build. But it does feel good when you finally get the ball rolling and get to witness other unique characters, outside the min/max builds.
i think it terms the dragonflight trees are more interesting but provide less value per point where as wrath has lots of value per point but had very boring effects. You really shouldn't use retail as a basis for pve content. recently one of the worst things about blizzard pve has gotten worse. area denial zones that over lap. the final boss of the current raid tier drops spooge all over the place. and then you have avoid that spooge while massive spooge pizza slices cut through the entire arena based on where players are standing. and then you have to stack so you can aoe sticky spooge that damages you the longer it is on you. don't do this, it isn't fun and just shows you have no idea how to make a fight difficult without taking control out of players hands.
Retail's bloated dumb talent trees are nothing like they were pre-mop. Waaay too many active abitilies are in the trees, instead of just modifiers. Remove all your talents, and you have
I remember them putting out a vote for this on the Discord, and I voted for the classic Spec trees. They are more flexible and they feel better like you're actually working for something like creating a character. Where Dragon Flight talent trees feel like you're being set down a path and And you have no control over that after the initial choice that you make. Right before Dragonflight came out I was super excited because I thought that they were bringing back a classic system. I spent a couple hours messing around with it. Left came back, spent a week or so trying to make it work. I said fuck it, re-canceled my subscription and uninstalled the game. The move away from (pre cata) spec trees was the single change that destroyed the game for me. Thanks for the DuskHaven Update. Great video.
if it's still one man works then no, I'm not interested. you need solid team to build successful private server. I think McDoubles know this since he's working with ascension team in CoA right now.
Giving talent tree advice is neat and all, but then saying because you also have experience even though coa is partly failing because of your design decisions, is hilarious
Remember when they took the og server down for what was supposed to be a month or so? Almost 1.5 years later still not available 😂
To be fair they had to let go a lot of "staff" and even the original creator, though I think he is taking a more "advisory" position now... lol
They should've just left the server up while they worked on the reforge. I absolutely loved duskhaven
Duskhaven is very much a victim of feature creep. At first it was to improve the tech on the back end and make everything nicer. Then it was them wanting to improve classes. THen it was wanting to do the DF talent trees. Like I really liked what old duskhaven had because it was interested in adding new content and playstyles but its been so long that keeping interest is hard at time especially when updates almost never happen.
Perfectly stated. I wish it would have just stuck to upping the tech and that’s it
In my opinion those were great decisions.
It will be fun when it's out and working. But the main problem is that all the good WoW projects are ways out, around 5 of them. And we want to play something now, not later.
I seen druid stuff at it looks good.
Just sucks waiting for good projects.
Nothing wrong with feature creep when it comes to Vanilla+ WoW, its better than coming out with too many changes at once. Turtle WoW has done it really well imo. Yes some people think 1.17.2 was too many changes, but I absolutely love it.
@@nicksalvatore5717 that isnt feature creep. Feature creep is when you make so many changes or try adding so much stuff that nothing gets done and it keeps pushing the release back
I played Duskhaven and level a enh shaman to max and got to hyjal and stuff it was really fun I loved how stupidly broken Stormstrike was with 2H weapon basically one shotting every mob. I hope they re-release the server it had tons of good ideas.
one shotting every mob doesnt sound very fun to me
@@nicksalvatore5717 broken = fun it's a well-known fact in WoW community and it's a one shot when it crits of course
I played a tank shaman. It was an absolute blast. Elemental bulwark could 1 shot clothies in pvp and it was hilarious 🤣
They had the greatest version of shaman on any server
Duskhaven was so much fun! Had a tinker I was raiding MC with and was leveling a monk and bard when they decided to bring down the servers. If it comes out and has the polish of something like Turtle WoW, it's going to do SO well.
I miss feral from duskhaven, little changes they made in talnets was fun and making swipe deal more damage plus apply bleed was so good. Tanking was fun too with barkskin dealing damage like thorns
Dang man, i remember bard release and the first wave of 60 monks and how we completely obliterated everything with heals/dps XD That stuff was such a blast.
Having put around 300 hours into duskhaven when it was out, I will say even before the team upgrade, the devs were incredible, and I would say we are in good hands once they are ready!
Good question. Where the hell is it?
Being developed. They give updates every so often on their discord.
Love your work man, keep it up! I always end up coming back to see how you're doing.
Duskhaven was fun to play . Hope it comes back :)
-Stop you're making me feel old!
-Also with talents it is a bit tough on Vanilla/TBC/Wrath players for people that don't play games like PoE. But I played a lot of CoA so I'm gonna be fine with it and since it's still classes so it shouldn't be too hard as a druid compared to a fully custom class like Starcaller. So for people that played CoA I assume it will be a more easier time to understand than CoA first was.
-Hyped for the beta!
Yeah Duskhaven will def have its own permanent niche community im sure.. I avoid classic wow like a plague but mainly because i dont need to see the same Stormwind i saw when i was 12. Base wow is a perfect game so adding updated features is all i wanted. like stormwind should look like a FULL city and not a corner market. Deadmines can have bigger caveways etc. also Tank shaman Drawf hopefully is always a plus.
Duskhaven was my favorite Private server. I still think about it from time to time. Wish they just kept the server up while they worked on the reforfed version.
mcdoubs as I wait for poe2 and delta force, I've been watching skyrim graphics modded content and I was like man I never played skyrim and only ever heard good things. would be cool to see you do a play through with the graphic mods. ur one of my favorite content creators. Hope all is well brother
Sounds interesting, and I also think this and turtle wow going into HD mode/ unreal engine in 2025 will compete with one another
When i first saw the wow trees i was instantly turned off from even trying to build my DK.
I played a lot of meh level pvp in retail and came in during MoP. I always get my build off youtube so i didn't think a skill tree woukd effect me much, but just seeing it was daunting and there were a lot of low impact choices that i didn't really wana have to think about for future tuning, so i really just checked out of wow hard in the gameplay sense.
Ofc there is more to why i left retail than a class tree, but it was for sure part of the stack.
Great video
If it’s not out before Project Epoch and AZAW, it’ll be DOA for me. I really wish they would have just stuck to upping the tech without all these random new features. Duskhaven was awesome it just needed some polish.
Class trees are kind of meh in retail but it's because of their design philosophy in which everything has to be balnd and every class has to be able to do everything and you don't really need to make decisions in your class tree because all the good stuff is at the center instead of at the end. That said I do believe there's potential in them if you add choices that actually affect mechanics of your class and could impact the gameplay of all your specs.
The biggest problem with Duskhaven is communication. If they said, "guys, it's a big project, let us cook and we will make annoucements when we have something to show you", then there would be much less drama and complaints around it. But they are constantly giving themselves new and new deadlines, which they never make, and this obviously upsets their followers. For example PTR has been announced like 5 times already, in last december they said "we need a few more weeks", and during the last missed deadline about 3 months ago they said "it's weeks away". If they don't change this, they will generate more and more unnecessary anger, disappointment and scepticism for their potential playerbase, and the devs will eventually burn out from the constant criticism and hateful messages.
Man. Duskhaven was THE PERFECT Vanilla+ server. Twow is amazing, but I just can't get through the awful fucking XP grind of vanilla WoW. Duskhaven had just the right amount of xp gain for it to not be completely boring but not super fast like Ascension either. I just want to play it again man...
The trouble with talent trees is that no matter how you do it, there will always be some sense of it being cookiecutter, because that's just how meta works, shit some people even call PoE builds "cookiecutter". That flexibility is what made Ascension fun imo, back when it was mostly classless and with the current season. That being said, it's always better to give the players some degree of freedom in their choices even if people can't resist peer pressure to play meta slop, because it's better than giving people prepackaged classes with no choice. At that point, it's beyond cookiecutter, it's fucking factory produced classes.
One of the worst things wow ever attempted was MoP's removal of talent trees. They tried to keep in a bit of flexibility with glyphs at the time, but that also was extremely limited, since the devs never wanted to offer more than a few actually useful glyphs to prevent players from feeling FOMO of not using the meta picks.
This, honestly, looks super promising, I'm especially interested if they get the updated animations to work. I would kill for updated animations on ascension/COA.
I used to try and get to 60 with the demon hunter, was really fun... i hope they come back with more wacky stuff
mage with magic missile now all we need is a mage quest to cast the ability into the Darkness(some kind of NPC Void Walker model) (as a reference)
I’ve turned against the Dragonflight trees. I actually prefer the original classic trees to them and over the MoP style trees as well.
What I find funny is that one of the issues with the original trees per blizzard was an “illusion of choice” but the Dragonflight trees quite literally create an illusion of choice.
Why are we using half of our talent points to acquire baseline abilities that every single spec and build uses? Makes zero sense.
The talent trees should be about customizing gameplay not spending talent points to get baseline abilities that every single spec uses.
This is a side effect of data-mining and number crunches. "Classic" Talents when no one knew anything were fun because of just that, we were stupid and we could do w/e and if someone was better we would be like "oh they have x talent instead of y" now with all the programs we have its why it generates the illusion of choice. They do provide choice though, I play an incredibly off meta build and for the content I do in retail AotC and M10s, it works just fine.
@ I see what you’re saying but frankly the Dragonflight trees don’t even allow choice. Often you are forced down a certain path. At least with the original trees - optimal or not - you could select any talent on a row after putting five points that tree in general.
To use Elemental Shaman as an example, after the most recent change, it’s physically impossible to have ANY build without stormkeeper. You literally can’t even put enough points in the tree to pass that node and to make matters worse - they made that node also branch into 3 of the available below - so even if you could - you actually can’t skip that ability,
As a 2200 rated Ele shaman that’s a wasted point - I never need it use it.
Or worse on frost DK - you can’t play ANY build without frost strike, obliterate, and pillar of frost and yet we are forced to give three points to abilities that are in fact baseline and prior to Dragonflight we’re given to us for free
Ring of frost or dragon's breath
There's no illusion here
@@kadix928neither of those abilities are rotational dps abilities nor do they alter gameplay in instanced content. You don’t have a build based around either of those.
That’s my point.
Customizing your CC or utility spells isn’t really rotation customization choice
You physically can’t play a frost death knight build that isn’t centered around pillar of frost. There is no choice. No alternative.
Talents should customize or alter gameplay entirely.
For example, what if we got a Frost DK build that doesn’t include the ability obliterate and instead converts soul reaper into a big rune spender. There could be alternate cooldowns instead of pillar of frost and a completely different stat priority.
I took this as sarcasm from you so I apologize if you were being serious.
In dungeons more mobs are likely to be affected by Dragons Breath over Ring of Frost. In PvP it depends on the map you are playing too. DB is good defensive, RoF can be used to block off a pathway
What's the difference from Duskhaven and Duskhaven Reforged ?
CoA is definitely missing retail animations and new races
playing with those wonky on-repeat animations is getting rather dull at this point
and they've shown that they can do it (they ported the entire lizard race/class)
Class tree should be smaller, and make as it is named, class tree. Meaning its more like you used to get all kind of spells for your calss even tho you not using them, but with tree you can make them being useful and be able to alter them to fit gameplay working for you and your spec. For example you can make force of nature to be class talent and then can be used on all specs and maybe gave few nodes to change how it works to fit spec.
my human druid was so geared. i miss duskhaven
With some of the issues that later versions wow versions fixed, I am sort of suprised that there is no cata, or even Legion, custom private servers, that I know of. Obviously there is so much more Research into the 3.3.5a version but I would still love to see Legion+. Also I hope that Duskhaven comes out soon, I didnt try the Tinkerer or the Bard classes and I am curious about all the other additions.
Hey man could you give vanilla plus some love? its actually sick ive been leveling prot pally. I honestly love so much about the leveling. The changes are classic+ to the T. and its still Blizzlike somehow.
Gonna have to disagree with you on DFs trees being superior to the OG tree. The OG trees while in very much need of greater fine tuning in the modern gaming sphere allowed for more diverse choices in building your class around your playstyle by allowing you free reign to choose talents within each spec tree, sure each spec supported certain roles but you weren't hard locked into it forcing you to only play a singular playstyle, people did crazy things with their classes back in the day because the trees allowed that freedom. DFs trees are easier to manage by the devs and make classes to spec and role oriented as that was the direction Cata brought retail into, your playing a class that fulfills a role and not playing your characters class in creative ways in spite of those limitations.
Thats why I like Ascension as a Classic+ concept so much, sure the Hero system feels like PoEs buildcrafting in its complexity to figure out what you want to play how your gonna go about doing it along with integrating the right Mystic Enchants to support your build. But it does feel good when you finally get the ball rolling and get to witness other unique characters, outside the min/max builds.
i think it terms the dragonflight trees are more interesting but provide less value per point where as wrath has lots of value per point but had very boring effects.
You really shouldn't use retail as a basis for pve content. recently one of the worst things about blizzard pve has gotten worse. area denial zones that over lap. the final boss of the current raid tier drops spooge all over the place. and then you have avoid that spooge while massive spooge pizza slices cut through the entire arena based on where players are standing. and then you have to stack so you can aoe sticky spooge that damages you the longer it is on you. don't do this, it isn't fun and just shows you have no idea how to make a fight difficult without taking control out of players hands.
Retail's bloated dumb talent trees are nothing like they were pre-mop. Waaay too many active abitilies are in the trees, instead of just modifiers.
Remove all your talents, and you have
staff on there are completely corrupt and just genuinely wierd
talenttrees > everything else
love ur vids x
I feel like we are going to get GTA 6 before duskhaven :(
I was interested in Old Duskhaven. This is Retail Minus. Not for me.
I remember them putting out a vote for this on the Discord, and I voted for the classic Spec trees. They are more flexible and they feel better like you're actually working for something like creating a character. Where Dragon Flight talent trees feel like you're being set down a path and And you have no control over that after the initial choice that you make.
Right before Dragonflight came out I was super excited because I thought that they were bringing back a classic system. I spent a couple hours messing around with it. Left came back, spent a week or so trying to make it work. I said fuck it, re-canceled my subscription and uninstalled the game. The move away from (pre cata) spec trees was the single change that destroyed the game for me.
Thanks for the DuskHaven Update. Great video.
Did something happen between you and ascension? I feel like you've been distancing yourself from ascension.
No eggs allowed
SoonTM
dragonflight ui is sexy and ascension ai art isnt please pass thing along
if it's still one man works then no, I'm not interested.
you need solid team to build successful private server. I think McDoubles know this since he's working with ascension team in CoA right now.
So this server is trying to be like retail or mop in 3.3.5 client
Giving talent tree advice is neat and all, but then saying because you also have experience even though coa is partly failing because of your design decisions, is hilarious
Project Epoch and Turtle WoW only.
sorry it might be too late they have taken too long hope I’m wrong
First