Europe’s deepest mine transformed into a GIANT underground battery
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- Опубликовано: 29 мар 2024
- Europe’s deepest mine transformed into a GIANT underground battery
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efficiency in energy storage is the name of the game... end coal, end big oil. this is one more nail in the coffin. great report Sam!
Gravity storage does in fact have cycle life due to the fact that mechanical objects have a limited lifespan before needing repair and/or replacement. Mechanical energy storage also has energy losses due to friction and mechanical inefficiencies, plus scheduled maintenance downtime is a kind of loss. While BESS (battery electrical storage systems) do have standby losses, they are negligible for units that experience daily cycling. BESS also have charge/discharge cycle losses, but they small, and they also have much better and faster surge capacity than mechanical electric storage. BESS can provide power factor, waveform, and frequency support by injecting current and/or voltage into the grid as needed in less than a second of sensing problems.
In Europe, gravity based energy storages are pretty common in form of pumped-storage hydroelectricity plants.
For those saying that the parts will wear out, very true, but isn't the same true of traditional power stations? Those turbines don't last forever and require maintenance.
A turbine has just one moving part, or two if you count the turbine rotor and the motor/generator both mounted on a common shaft. The tradition power plants have massive continuous coal and ash handling conveyors in addition to the turbine/generator. Also, is the steam generators continuously exposed to very high temperature corrosive gases that typically break first.
Pumped water has much less wear and tear than conveyer belts, lifts, trains etc.
It would be good if you could cover some of the downsides of this gravity system, e.g moving parts and the maintenance required, and how these affect the overall performance of the system relative to other storage systems
Exactly.
A closed in 1990's, "upside down mine" (enter at 8200ft. side of granite mountain, up to 1100 inside)
only had to cap the bottom tunnel, back up flowing ground water, plus small high pressure turbine, high psi tunnel plug the main investment. Guessing enough to run a couple dozen homes. (not international news)
Maybe 1500 to 2k ft max head at small flow rate--say enough to fill a 1 by 2ft ditch flowing several mph.
Plug back pressure on the ground water is 'reclamation' of sorts, possibly crucial for some natural springs or whatever...not crucial to overall landscape, it all ends up as crystal clear cold creek water in a mile anyway. (((high Sierra's E. Central Cali)))
IF I had a point--some leftovers have low impact or even positive impact w productive potential.
same maintenance as your lift in Apt / office buildings
@@davelawson2564Too expensive and shit breaks down way too often...and I know the work of the champions of elevator building: ThyssenKrupp.
Just the one word: friction.
@@boballen9095 Friction should be very low, on the order of a couple %, just a cable over a sheave. Losses will be from motor/generators and electrical which might be on the order of 10% round trip. A lot better than pumping water uphill or compressing air in a cavern.
So it's down to initial costs and maintenance, mainly capital upfront. Could be viable at first glance, no blatant deal breakers.
On paper (or in a video), it sounds like a good idea. But one has to check the details. I didn't check the details for this specific company and project, but I did it for Energy Vault, the company you used most of the video material here. For Energy Vault's best product (gravity bricks with a reinforced concrete shell [20%of the weight] filled with waste), if you store renewable energy in the device, charge and discharge it every day for 30 years, the average carbon footprint of every kWh is the same as of a kWh produced from natural gas (without even taking into account methane emissions from natural gas). This is because of the huge amounts of concrete and steel needed for the project. This makes it not a climate change solution, at least until they can build it with very low carbon intensity materials. I've used to work with Energy Vault, and when I asked them about this fatal flaw, they did not answer me.
Maybe the deep mine version of the a gravity battery is better carbon-wise.
that is a lie
@@asdfasdf71865where is he wrong? Be specific.
I think u r probably correct in ur assessment, if not completely accurate.
The deep mine has better production.
Do you take into account the steel and concrete used to build the gas plant in your estimate?
Another string in the bow to ending fossil fuels. Fantastic!
Water seems more practical and cheaper.
It depends on the situation/location, but gravity batteries are more efficient and have smaller risks/problems if done correctly. Im sure they considered all viable options for a project this size.
@@techtechuw597there are no serious mountains in Finland, so hydropower will be limited. These gravitational batteries are expensive: do some basic calculations and you know why these batteries will never become successful. Potential energy = mxgxh and 1 kWh = 3,6 MJ
easy stuff has been done already also cave diving into the depths of kilometers is not a good idea either
Scarce
No, water does not seem as practical or as cheap. Not even close.
Happy Easter 🐰🥚🥚⛪️
Indeed. Jesus lives, despite what you may have heard.
Just for visualisation - 1 kWh is 360.000 kg*m.
It means 360 metric tonnes have to lifted 1m to store 1kWh.
Cars have 40-70kWh. this shows how low energy density gravitional batteries have.
1450m of the deepest mine imagine 36t wieght would give 145kWh.
Your logic is not appreciated on this site 😅😅😅
This probably explains why gravimetric batteries are not being used in cars
i wonder if you ever considered comparing the utility of gravity storage to battery storage, you might be surprised to find that gravity on earth isnt high enough to make this feasible.
Here are the numbers:
consider a well 10m x 10m in cross-section and 1000m (1km) deep. The gravity storage device stores energy by lifting cement blocks from the bottom half (500m) of the well to the top half (500m).
The energy required to lift 1 kg by 1 m is 9.8 Joules. 1 litre of water weights 1 kg. so this means 1 litre of water raised 1m stores 9.8J. 1 litre of water is 1000 cubic cm. so, 1 cubic meter of water weighs 1000 kg. Concrete has a density 2.3 times that of water. so, a 10m x 10m x 500m block of concrete, raised 500m stores 9.8 x 2.3 x 1000 x 10 x 10 x 500 x 500 Joules = 5.7xe11 Joules
In comparison a single Tesla MegaPack storeg 3.9 MWh or 1.4e10 Joules
So this 1km high gravity storage well can store the same enery as only 40 MegaPacks.
An open pit mine has a volume exceeding millions, perhaps billions of Megapacks🤠
@@FrunkensteinVonZipperneckYou don’t get to use the full volume of the mine, only the shaft, unless you start using energy to stack the weights sideways which immediately wastes most of the energy.
Nicely done. The TLDR is that gravity batteries simply don’t store much energy and are expensive, complicated, inefficient, unreliable and there aren’t many suitable locations.
Let the prototype facility establish the facts on cost, downtime (it would have to be close to zero) and efficiency.
If this is anything like what Energy Vault has proposed we can expect problems because with all of those cranes swinging around heavy blocks (of concrete) what you have is a chaotic and dangerous mess not a viable energy storage system.
And, by the way, the gravity battery mentioned in connection with Switzerland is just pumped hydro as you might expect.
Gravitational energy storage (mxgxh) is quite limited. Do some basic calculations and you know why.
when these deep shafts are used, the calcs suggest it is viable. Plus it is efficient.
@@lunatik9696even if the shaft is 1000m tall and the weight is 1000 metric tons, the amount of stored energy is less than 3000 kWh. Any idea what kind of investment is needed to make this happen??
@user-uk8tl3xy9eIt all depends on whether the project is subsidized or not? It's nice to spend money that isn't your own.
What goes up, must come down. Beauty! A+ Sam.
...then use water...and if you are clever you will make a system where the water evaporates and rises again...instead of needing electrical energy and pumps.
Brilliant...a giant Grandfather Clock... don't forget the history clock face
Good to see a step up in more general renewable energy content as EVs have become established.
i think , if they dig a little deeper they can reach a hot geological area and tap off it for geothermal power, no batteries of any kind needed, less space, less moving parts to maintain. and cheaper to operate. perhaps tesla's boring company can come up with something to drill. just a thought
on another note, how long do those cables holding the weights last????
Credit given where credit due this is actually an interesting topic I've also read somewhere that this technology maybe explored and tested at port Kembla steel works on the unused decommissioned area which is also being transformed into a technology hub for TAFE NSW.
This is all interesting not the next battery chemical battery tech and I hope it work it's feasible and it actually happens.
Congratulations Sam decent story
Gravity energy storage on some of my napkin math looks like about 50%-60% input/output efficiency. This is much better than the 25% thermal conversion efficiency of coal or natural gas. Of course the big variables are maintenance and actual storage ability. I hope this works out because using a fundamental field like gravity as energy storage seems like a basically great idea. The devil is always in the details however. We’ll see.
The thermal efficiency of coal is 34.12 percent, the current generation of CCGT gas plants is 63 percent. Your figures are incorrect.
The energy density isn't all that impressive. By my calculation, a 1kg weight in a 1km shaft is about 2.7kWh. Now try keeping the shaft from flooding.
large umbrella ?
@@robertfonovic3551 I'm more concerned with groundwater intrusion. Mines often need continuous pumping to stay dry.
Gravity batteries have terrible energy densities by volume and by mass. The only reason this gravity would make sense is because the mining operation basically subsidized it by digging the shaft. However, such leftover mine shafts are not always in a convenient location and often mines still need to have water pumped out and sometimes air circulation needs to be maintained to prevent the accumulation of dangerous gases so there is an energy cost in maintaining an old mine shaft as a gravity battery. It's good that they built it and perhaps we should look for other such facilities but we can't expect this as the solution to grid storage simply because there aren't many convenient sites for this.
Mechanical gravity batteries only work well in computer presentations. With lifted weights, you can store surprisingly little energy. To reserve the monthly consumption of a small apartment or house, you need to lift a weight of 2000 metric tons 100 meters high. Now you can imagine how much a village or small town will need.
gravity batteries are great... using water reservoirs is cool too... as long as the capacity and efficiency are there.
Complaint: The stock footage used as the background to your text is quite a bit more annoying than usual. All those irrelevant, distantly related clips constantly repeated really distract. If you don't have more pertinent images available, please consider a MUCH slower image pace with fewer cuts. Your texts often don't need any images at all, so just let something not distracting run longer.
Came to say exactly this. Couldn’t finish the video
Also this useless block elevator junk
@Thunderfoot rules
Love this.
My father helped build the Northfield Mountain Hydroelectric facility in Northfield Massachusetts in the 1970s. It is a gravity battery type plant that pumps water up to a reservoir on the top of the mountain and then sends the water down through generators inside the mountain to produce 1.168 megawatts of electricity. The pumps initially were run on electricity from the Vermont Yankee Nuclear Plant which shut down in 2014. It is powered by fossil fuels now which makes the plant too expensive and too dirty. Hopefully solar and wind power will be used to convert the plant at some point in the future.
Very cool, clearly with wind and solar energy storage becomes a big deal, so great to see this creative solution. Love to know what its total "efficiency" is (for N units of energy going in lifting a given block, how much do you get out when you drop that block)? I guess this would be the same (or hopefully better) than the efficiency of regenerative braking, which is 60-70%? Not great, but better than losing that solar power alltogether, which is what California is doing now. In 2020, the California Independent System Operator (CAISO) curtailed approximately 1.5 million megawatthours of utility-scale solar energy, which is about 5% of their production.
Best thing about gravity bases systems is that they never loose capacity and are completely renawable, sure things will wear out but that's just some simple parts, not a limited resource like in Li-ion batteries.
l look forward to the outcome of the trial. While it looks good on paper l have my doubts about scale. The maintenance required is known so that is easy. Crane winches are geared so that a relatively low powered motor can lift large weights. When we reverse that idea it means that the output of the generator might be low as well.
lt seems like a great opportunity to reuse existing infrastructure . Especially in rural areas where the town is adjacent to the mine. Not sure how it will scale up though.
Nice to utilize those no longer used mining shafts especially if those are already connected to the electrical grid. Anyway not many of those so this is a marginal gain.
As I can see in the images there are workers digging with hammers and chisels and moving dirt with baskets. It looks like a groundbreaking technology for the 21st century. It's the same technology used in congo for the cobalt?
They can charge batteries as they lower rock down to the bottom of the mine as they fill the giant hole back up.
Only need six months storage in winter!
Wind turbines are particularly favorable during winter
They just have to find a way to lift the Matterhorn 5 kilometers into the air. Ask Musk or Sandy if it will work. i reckon they would answer with a " sure..no problemo " LOL
@@13thbiosphere and i like jam on my toast
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Wind turbines actually generate a lot of energy in winter, especially in Europe, and with a mix of wind and solar and if there are enough of them, I don't think we need anywhere near 6 months battery storage as that is very likely overkill, but we probably do need around 2 months worth,
I think over the long run as battery tech gets better and cheaper, this form of energy storage will likely become redundant, but in the short term, we need all the energy storage solutions we can find, and this is a cheaper solution that works on repurposed land that's not going to be used for much else.
So in the short term, I see merit in this until battery tech gets really advanced and cheap that you can buy enough to power your home for like a month and it cost very little, so quite some time off lol.
Paul if we look a bit further out. I'm interested in the commercial efforts being made to develop small fusion generators in the desktop/kw range. If this can be achieved it will point to a distributed electrical future with less need for transmission grids. Up to now nuclear fusion attention has focused on huge power experiments like ITER and the NIF. However fusion unlike fission can in theory be scaled from kwh size devices. There is no critical mass. A year ago I would have said a successful development is many years off. Now I suspect commercial interests will make it happen, possibly in my lifetime and I'm 75.
Any tech that diminishes fossil fuels is worth considering.
The electric elevator was patented in 1874 and built in 1880.
There are always technical challenges,
but this system is essentially an electric elevator which have been in use for over 140 years.
These "elevators" also don't produce toxic emissions. The only real difference is scale.
Yes, they require maintenance like any mechanical system, but much less than a coal or gas plant.
Even solar arrays require some maintenance.
Pumped hydro is cheaper and more efficient than mechanically lifting and lowering expensive concrete blocks. Mechanical gravity batteries have been thoroughly debunked. By the way, is there a link for the operational gravity battery in Sweden?
By pumped hydro, do you mean using existing water reservoirs and dams? If yes, you are probably right. Otherwise, depending on location and geographic conditions, the cost of constructing a big enough reservoir to match the energy capacity of the proposed gravity storage may be quite expensive. Not to mention the environmental impact of Terra forming the land
Also, here the particular problem being solved is how to extract the most value from this abandoned mine. I doubt pumped hydro is of much use here
It's a mechanical battery, so parts would wear out.
I guess you could do a sort of pumped hydro with a deep mine. A tank outside and one down in the mine and use renewable energy to bottom tank to the top.
Cute idea for places which have mines that are deep enough. But even there the stored energy is just (found via Google) about 18 MWh - that's almost nothing. With a 1444m deep mine this means a total weight of about 4600 tons to be moved up or down. Assuming a speed of max. 10m/sec means a peak power of 500 MW for 2 minutes. That's it. It may be suitable to compensate changes of wind or solar production within an hour to minimize load changes on conventional caloric power plants but this is far away from being a game changer.
Sounds like a copy of the mine battery about to enter production in Queensland owned by Genex.
Very cool idea!
It's all about cost efficiency whether it will become a dominant source of storing energy
I'd want to see a hard nosed economic analysis of this, as well as the actual amount of energy they can store. The 2 MW prototype will answer a lot of these questions. Until then, I'm skeptical.
There is no gravity based energy storage that powers 1M houses.
The start up « Energy Vault » (crane -concrete block energy ) is almost bankrupt.
The only gravity based batteries in switzerland that work very well , and economically working too ,is pumped hydro from cheap renewable and excess nuclear power.
I'd suggest it is pronounced gravi-tricity - "tricity" as in electricity.
How much energy is it going to take to keep pumps running 24/7 just to keep the shafts dry?
Otherwise, it sounds feasible.
Very expensive to build considering its limited use.
These are interesting niche projects a good exercise for engineers and it will create a few jobs.. This project will not pay for its own maintenance much less the build cost but people do all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons.. People support endeavors they are told are good, for reasons they don't understand or care enough about to to try and understand from a critical perspective.
This is the same as pumping water back up into lakes which power hydroelectric power plants using excess energy when available.
Sodium Ion batteries are what I would bet on long term for stationary storage applications as the chemistry/mineral cost potential is cheaper then dirt. The abundancy of sodium is also likely to stymie its development though as a tremendous amount of capital is now sunk into Lithium.
Seems like Mt Isa copper mine in Queensland would be a good site as this mine is closing down soon.
Worlds largest Cuckoo clock.
built by cuckoos for cuckoos
A battery is a electrochemical device. A mine is a enertia storage device
Cheers mate
I seen this on the science channel. They also said the resources required to maintain the system is minimal for 25 years of usage. Cables and bearings may need replacement at some point but its not even 0.05 percent of cost for operations. May turn out to be the perfect large scale solution for energy storage. No loss of conversion at all. It nearly matches the energy put in it that you get out every time. Essentially earth's gravity is used for storage.
Oil Companies aren't going to like this 🤣
Claiming ‘no loss of conversion’ is obvious nonsense.
Also the energy capacity of gravity batteries is low and suitable sites are incredibly rare.
@@fredbloggs5902 Very little loss. Based on the efficiency of low speed electric motors optimized for that specific operation. You can get 98% efficiency. Drop another 2% for friction loss on the cables. Thats as close as you get for almost perfect storage of energy.
@@keithwillis3761 You obviously haven’t read the proposal. Go read it before you embarrass yourself any further 🤣🤡
@@fredbloggs5902 Wasn't commenting on the entire proposal just the core technique.
It is amazing what smart people come up with. Hope its not an investment scam. Thanks for telling us about green energy solutions.
It’s a scam
how about maintenance of the motors and winches?
Fantastic. Switzerland showing off as usual (quietly.)
yhäsalmi Mine is the deepest base metal mine in Europe, having a depth of 1,444 metres or 4,738 feet. It is located at the Pyhäjärvi municipality in the south of Northern Ostrobothnia province, Finland...... Operated by Canadian company..... gravity battery system has been developed by Scottish firm Gravitricity, which plans to use the Finnish mine as a full-scale prototype to demonstrate the technology..... No I don't know where Switzerland comes into this
@@13thbiosphere Swiss pioneered this technology in Arbedo-Castione.
The Swiss project is pumped hydro.
2kw doesn't sound like a lot of energy for grid energy storage.
Sounds like the start of a horror movie
Did you say the capacity, i.e the number of kWh it can store?
It’s not so much a battery as it is a generator. It would be interesting if it took less power to lift the weight than it produces on the way down
Please note that picture of dumpers coming up of the open mine, is not the Finnish mine.
No chemicals and likely longer lifespan hence less maintenance.
problem i have always had with gravity batteries is one of the things they use to charge them... Wind. If you have ever had to work with cranes you will know about wind restrictions on using them.
I also worry about the other major issue they have so many moving parts with heavy weight's.
they have a limited number of cycles i dont know how much.. but each of the weights that have to stack wear down a little with each move. probably much more charge discharge than Lithium.
Ugh the engineer in me keeps coming out of retirement to tell me thousands of issues they could have with this including round trip efficiency and power loss percentage
Its same as lift in your Apts/ multi story building
Now imagine if each one of the weights were actually a sodium battery
Gravity batteries work only once a year, on 1 April.
What happened to finish company polar night ?
Morning mate
its like an engine or green piston engine
From an economic perspective, for long term/utility/grid storage, Pumped Hydro blows all alternatives away. I will eat both my hat and yours, if the economics for this project work
We need all of the above, wind, solar, thorium, batteries, hydro, gravity batteries etc etc.
Just had a thought; every elevator could possibly reclaim energy to batteries every time they descend.
Now show your calculations for the energy stored…
…oh wait, you haven’t done any, because if you had, you’d know the amount is minuscule.
Elevators normally have a counterbalance… 😬
@@Arjan_2 Good point ..... bad idea. 🤔
@@fredbloggs5902 hi fredbloggs, it was only a thought, so no need for the unnecessary sarcasm; nevertheless, @Argan just killed my idea by reminding me that elevators have counter weights.
Not wanting to labour is a bad idea, but perhaps when designing a high-rise building, a shaft could be incorporated into the structure for such a device. This is just a thought; I am not a mechanical or electrical engineer, so please excuse my ignorance.
neat
It's a shame they couldn't use the water from fukushima.
There are thousands of Coal mine shafts in the UK alone
And most are either totally unsuitable or require massive investment to render safe because they’ve been closed for decades.
@@fredbloggs5902 Still leaves plenty that does qualify as usable
@@stevehayward1854 You’re obviously an expert, please list them.
Have been attempted for decades..
If they used the mine as the lower reservoir of a pumped-hydro system it would work! The so-called gravity system is vastly more complicated with moving parts and cables that will wear out quickly and be cost prohibitive. There is a reason these do not already exist.
I agree - but where do you put the upper reservoir?
this... doesn't seem like a good idea? the energy converstion ratio can't be high with so many moving parts.
two words: thunder foot
Ok, say it with me... Gravi....trisity.... Not gavit tri city 😊
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UK Kings
Cables and pulleys will degrade quickly.
Gravity .... water ?
This is great. The biggest problems with renewables are intermittency and overproduction. Batteries solve both of these. BUT BATTERIES ARE EXPENSIVE.
ballpark figure of 1 mi;;ion per MW of storage. do the math for California alone. its unacheivable unless they sell the state to the chinese. LOL
een 9 met die prijs?
I thought they were going to convert it into a giant sodium ion battery.
is this an april 1 news ?
You are showing a brick building system..thats not whats being built. You dont need a hole in the ground for a brick building system. Its a shaft system with less moving parts.
The devil is always in the details. It's not that I don't love a splashy headline, but this ancient technology should be able to be completely designed and priced out with an environmental impact report. I'd like to see a more statistics based on current engineering and technology. I presume the gravity weights are made of concrete. Has anyone studied how much CO2 the production of the concrete weights produce using the most "green" methods available today that would give the gravity battery elements a 50 year life? How long are the crane superstructures expected to last before refurbishment? What about earthquake safety? How is is truly underground if it's in a deep strip mine? By definition, strip mines are not underground.
I can't believe anything you say, as it is way too radical. How about building a giant YoYo.
Gravity storage is the future.
Chemical batteries for grid stotage is a mith.
Except chemical batteries are already in use and provably profitable.
While gravity batteries are utter nonsense with a low energy density, expensive, complicated, inefficient, unreliable and suitable sites are rare.
@@fredbloggs5902 20GWh in Valais cost was 2.3 billion $ (US). This means 115 $ / kWh and will last for the next 200 years.
The chemical batteries price is double lasts for 10 years.
Sorry but the earth is the biggest battery that we have.
Plus ... I think is worthless to talk about the pollution caused by chemical batteries.
Regarding sites .. their are limitations. For example in Switzerland the altitude difference between the 2 lakes is 600 m.
@@fredbloggs5902 90% of energy storage is gravitational.
Gravity batteries are utter nonsense.
They’re much too expensive, complicated, inefficient and unreliable.
More importantly their capacity is ridiculously small.
(You can always tell that you’re being conned by them confusing power with energy).
@user-uk8tl3xy9e You obviously haven’t read the specification.
To obtain an energy storage of 100 mWh requires 36,000 concrete blocks each weighing 35 tonnes.
Getting the output of 25mW requires the blocks to be dropped 60m at a rate of 1.2 blocks per second.
Given that even in freefall it takes 3.5 seconds to fall 60m, it seems reasonable that a power extracting decent will take around 10 seconds.
This means to get the needed output requires 12x blocks to be falling at any one time.
Note that a prototype was supposedly built in 2019 in Italy but nobody seems to know where it is.
It’s a scam.
' the largest importer in finland " '" gravity batteries have been used for thousands of years "
more crap from Sam.
One of the dumber ideas out there, compared to pumped storage, why? mechanical systems like that far more failure prone, and when it does fail are insurmountably more costly and difficult to repair, and regular maintenance is more complicated, they gloss over all this fun stuff. All so very poor scalability.
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