@@studentofsmith You dip into Hexblade primarily for medium armor, shields, and the Shield spell, which means it's really good for any Bard, not just gish Bards. Subclass themes don't have to match thematically to be a good mechanical multiclass option. In fact, I would say the Valor Bard/Hexblade multiclass is actually kind of bad because it introduces redundancy with medium armor given by both sucblasses. Valor Bard is not a gish no matter how much the book pretends it is, it's about giving you medium armor and shield proficiency, so you're much better off going Sorcerer for the Shield spell, or Undead Warlock if you really want to dip Warlock (or you can do both Sorc and Warlock if you're starting at higher levels). Plus, the Undead Warlock dip is really really good as well regardless of Bard subclass: at-will frighten effect with Repelling Blast is very strong for control.
@@eshansingh1 you absolutely do not dip into hexblade for some proficiencies and spells LMAO it’s so you can use charisma as a primary stat for martial weapons and reduce how MAD a character is… that’s it
@@studentofsmith I dip warlock as an eloquence bard to get the invocation to cast disguise self at will while also getting EB and hex. Gives me roleplay benefits and some damage output.
Great video, dudes! I would definitely recommend keeping in mind the longevity of the average *realistic* campaign, especially as it relates to those B- and C-tier multiclasses. With those tiers, as you said, it makes a big difference when you take your second-class levels, so we want the build to stay relevant rather than waiting for a level that may never come.
If you are rating multiclass options there is one thing you absolutely must do : get in touch with Colby from D4. You are already friends with him so it should be easy. His input will be invaluable to your list, few channels dig deeper into multi-classing than Colby's, and his spreadsheets should be a great boon to your ranking criteria.
I was going to recommend getting in touch with D4 as well! Incredible channel that really has such a creative take on character exploration while also really highlighting strengths that are often overlooked
@@_fedmar_ Same stats are used, Wisdom and Dex, 4 element monk lets you use magic at a range while the beast companion distracts from up close, and if the enemy manages to approach you can ditch your bow and the disadvantage you would otherwise get to hit them up close with your fists or a touch range magic attack. Though the main draw is Ranger+monk in general rather than those 2 subclasses specifically.
I think what is crucial is to divide “generic” subclasses of the class and a few specific subclasses. Then if you give a ranking you could give warlock (generic) and warlock (hexblade), bard (generic) and bard (swords). I think this would enable you to parse out the details more and identify clearly the value of multiclassing two classes versus multiclassing due to a specific subclass being a really strong multiclass
So many variables i don't envy you. Not just when to dip, or how far to dive in but also which subclasses, particularly with options like hexblade that utterly change the way the class functions.
I can see that they give you a lot of options but a little down I see Cleric, Rogue and maybe Bard. Best multiclasses give you more options that are useful in ways that the core class can benifit from or can be utilized more broadly.
Action surge+double maxed call lightning on a fighter dipped tempest cleric for a flat 60 damage at level 7 (70+ damage if you casted spiritual weapon beforehand for an extra bonus action attack) is insane and a fun boss finisher combo 😂
As someone who's currently playing a Soulknife Rogue/Bard multiclass and has really been having a hard time making a decision on how to balance the levels, I really appreciate that you're doing this series! I love your content, and can't wait to see your thoughts.
I’m really excited for this series! I tend to shy away from multiclassing because I like the high level abilities too much, so it’ll be nice to get a more educated perspective!
Even though it’s slightly MAD, a single level dip into (Peace Domain) Cleric helped my Wizard a ton. Getting access to medium armor, shields, and healing (especially at range on a Bonus Action) was a godsend.
Note that some spell lists are more forgiveable towards a low spellcasting ability. Bards depend on their DC, while Clerics can often function pretty well with a lower Wis.
great idea for a series of videos! for me, the most difficult part is to know when to jump from one class to another, especially if the campaign will be limited in its total level
One of my favorite Multi-classes I have discovered lately is a Circle of the Moon Druid taking levels in Monk. Either 1 level just for the unarmored defense, 2 levels for Ki points and faster movement, or go all the way to level 5 for multi-attack. Getting those benefits in animal form are hilarious "Why yes, my Giant Elk form does have an AC of 17 and can hip check after its normal attack" (hip check would be an "unarmed attack" for martial arts bonus action attack)
In a similar vein, Moon Druid + Bear totem barbarian also has some silly results. Picking one of the high-HP animals and then raging makes you have ludicrous HP
I have this dilemma. Wildshape ac is terrible, but I really think the level 20 capstone druid ability is so good that you would regret not ever having a chance to get to. It all depends if the character is a on indefinite campaign or will definitely end at a set level
@@whiteraven562 Moon+Bear Barbarian really isn't very good. Sure you have lots of HP but that is all you have going for you. Your damage sucks, your casting sucks, your MAD as hell... Druid-Monk is much better but still only C tier IMO, because your WS AC never gets that high (e.g. Allosaurus with a +4 Wis druid-monk has AC 15 instead of AC 13, Bristled Moorbounder has no change in AC, Brownbear has AC 14 instead of 11), and you have a sever trade off between getting more ki points from Monk or upgrading you WS forms from Druid. A 1 level monk dip is ok, but more than that and you really aren't getting enough to be worth the sacrifice. The best MC if you want to maximize WS for Moon Druid is 2 levels of Paladin, but even then don't bother until you're at least level 6 druid.
@@agilemind6241 Yeah, Moon Druid + Barbarian is more of a "the flavor of this is fun" combo than a "mechanically this is amazing" combo. because turning into a Moose (Giant Elk stats) and then raging is hilarious
@@seekingfurtherlight34 Ranked choice is better for something like this. If everyone only gets to vote once and 80% chose option A, and 15% chose option B (with the last 5% sprinkled about on options C/D/E/F) it is hard to tell how close options A and B are to each other. With ranked choice voting if the 80% pick A for #1 spot and B for #2 spot, while the 15% pick B for #1 and A for #2 (and the C/D/E/F options still get very little in the top tier spots) then it is much easier to see that option A and B are both very well liked (almost a tie), rather than option A being a clear winner.
Yay! You dudes always come out with a highly relevant video when I need it! I was just looking at starting a Bladesinger Wiz and wondering if there’s a good multiclass that can help fill out the weaknesses of that subclass. Very awesome my dudes.
One multiclass that I loved to put up against my players on a oneshot and would love to test as a player is a Loxodon Battle Smith Artificer (3) & War Magic Wizard (17). Str 8, Dex 10, Con 17(+2), Wis 14(+1), Int 15 Cha 14 starting off as Artificer till lvl 3. War Caster feat on lvl 7 and past that just ASI. You can give yourself a +1 shield and +1 weapon that uses your Int. Cha and Dex can be swaped if you prefer, but I like to just soak up all the damages purely based on HP. This boyo gets 70+ hp and 20+ AC by level 10 while being mainly a Wizard. You only ever need 2 stats, Con and Int. Keep your steel defender beside you and make sure that he uses his reaction to make the biggest hitter nearby to have disadvantage on hitting you. If on a higher stats table or if you can for sure raise the stats without the ASI, Fey touched on 11. Choose bless as the spell from Fey Touched and you have advantage on keeping concentration with a +7 minimum. Other good options for feats: Mobile, Sentinel, Mage Slayer and Tough The combo can also be made with Bladesinging, getting the Enhanced Arcane Focus instead of the +1 shield Infusion. Not as tanky, but can dish out way more pain.
You may wish to reconsider the 'the class will be both the first class taken and the one in which we take the majority of levels' criterion for certain classes. Gaining proficiency in Constitution saving throws by taking first level in Fighter followed by a second level in Fighter at some point for action surge is really potent for many builds. And for Wizards, first level in Artificer for Constitution saving throw proficiency doesn't even cost you spell slot progression (although you are sacrificing Wisdom saving throws and slowing the level at which you can learn the actual spells).
I like the conversation generated from the ranking series, and I’m here to watch whatever you make. I would like to see more stuff I can drop into my games. Maybe a whole series on encounters that showcases how you put them together? Some art and stat blocks. Lot of work to create, but people are hungry for stuff they can slot into their games. You guys are great.
Is there some way that you can capture the difference between different dips into the same class? For example, a one level dip into Hexblade Warlock vs. a three level dip into Genie?
I think a criteria for this that might put them in the B or C tier that you did not mention was two classes that load a whole bunch of class abilities into one 'box' on the character sheet. For example, I had an idea for a Rogue/Bard multi-class, and the challenge became the number of things that the character could do on their Bonus action.
Yeah, bonus action economy becomes problematic with lots of multiclass builds. The more obvious one is when you get classes that synergize well, but then get certain dead levels because features don't stack (like extra attack).
I know you probably got plenty of this content in the pipeline, but I'd love guests to come on and talk about some of their favorite multi-classes. Maybe Tulok Barbrarian, XP to lvl 3, runesmith and others. Always good to band together against such perilous odds :)
I can see a lot of these multiclassing builds that are MAD be lower on the rankings scale, with a few exceptions here and there, but those would be very niche. I try to limit my multiclassing to 2 classes, or if I do more than that, they are a specialized character that takes advantage of very similar ability scores. It can take a bit of research and nuances, but some builds can be REALLY epic.
I didn't answer the survey because your system assumes that the first class you pick is going to be the one you invest most levels into. Most of my multiclassing so far has involved taking one or two levels of one class and then taking all my other levels in another class afterwards. If I like playing an Artificer1-WizardX, am I supposed to say that a good multiclass option for the Artificer is Wizard, or am I supposed to say that a good multiclass option for Wizard is Artificer? I've been playing a Cleric1-DruidX for a couple years (allows me to prepare more spells), alongside a friend who is Artificer1-WizardX (for CON saves, armor, Cure Wounds and more). I also want to try a Sorcerer1-BardX at some point (for CON saves and cantrips).
I know my tortle druid of the stars/artificer alchemist character is not a good multiclass. But boy has it been fun to RP and has it's cool moments in combat.
There are a LOT of options available. Just factoring in the number of class combinations, there are 156, but each of those comes with its own permutations. One potential issue I see with your stated criteria is when you START with a 1-level dip in a different class, but the majority of your levels are in the second class. Starting with a level of Artificer or Fighter is really good for a wizard (CON save proficiency and armor proficiencies); will you talk about that under the Wizard or under the Fighter/Artificer? Wizard is absolutely the primary class of that build, but it's not the first class.
I know the blood hunter class won't be considered, but blood hunter/battle smith is both an effective and highly flavorful class. I remember charging up my guns with my own blood.
My opinion: you can multiclass out of armorer artificer into LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE and still be decent to amazing, since you can wear plate while not needing 15 str and you don't need such a high dex due to infusions. Also, this allows you to focus on int, con, and whatever stat your multiclass needs, and if you choose abjuration wizard, you have a spellcasting juggernaut with an arcane ward and only needing to invest in int and con and then dex with left over asi
There may also need to be sort of distinction between a class that makes for a good multi-classing opportunity vs one specific subclass that is really useful. The obvious example being Warlock, where picking up 1-3 levels in Hexblade can have AMAZING synergy with other Charisma based classes (and is generally gonna be S tier), whereas all the others don’t give you nearly as much bang for your buck. Clerics fall into a similar vein, where what you’re really picking up are the domain perks. And there’s so many, there’s probably at least ONE domain that could pull off a B tier (possibly high C tier) for any given multiclass. I’m not sure how that might work out in the rankings, because that can be some HEFTY swing in viability for multiclassing between the class overall vs a specific subclass. Maybe rank the class overall, with a quick mention for specific subclasses that really stand out above the rest? I just worry that’s gonna end up kinda repetitive, with a lot of classes bring B or C tier generally, except for some of their best subclasses that are A or S.
One multiclass that should go into D-tier is Monk/Sorcerer. The Ki point/sorcery point system means you never have enough of either to do what you want. Also they don't share a casting stat, so you need to invest in 2 mental stats *and* dex *and* probably con so you don't die the first time someone looks at you from your D6 hitdice
Most effective multiclass at my table I have seen was Cleric/Sorcerer dip where they nat 20 on a Level 4 Chromatic Orb and used their Storm cleric channel divinity to maximum damage
I understand and respect that you want to emphasize performance in your rankings. Historically, what I´ve personally valued most is playing characters with large or unique toolboxes, that reward me being creative. In my experience, high player creativity often beats high character performance (given the GM knows what she´s doing). I think fun and style should be considered as well, so I suggest you give a little prize at the end - to the builds you feel are the most fun and stylish, regardless of their performance ranking.
I hope these videos will cover the roleplaying of multiclassing. Want to be a Wizard? Who trained you? A Cleric? How much time do you spend in church? A Warlock? How did you meet your patron? Some of this can be built into the character's background up front (e.g. the Acolyte background for a budding Cleric); if it's not I would be inclined to require a related Feat be taken at 4th Level before allowing the multiclass at 5th. We all know that some of the "best" multiclass options are Defensive Dips; adding a couple of levels of Twilight Cleric or Hexblade Warlock to a Sorcerer for example. Don't forget that if you are adding a dip that you will not use for its offensive capabilities then a high primary ability score may not be that important. One set of multiclass options that should work, but often don't, are the Domain Doubledowns. An Aasimar Divine Soul/Celestial Sorlock is an astounding healer. Mixing the psionic subclasses (Aberrant Mind, Great Old One, Psi Warrior, Soul Knife) just gets you a bunch of overlapping abilities. I'm coming to the view that it should be easy to rewrite 5E to get rid of Class completely, converting all abilities to Feats that are gained each time a character levels up. At the simplest level, how many fighter-types would take Action Surge at first level, delaying Heavy Armor to 2nd (when they can afford some)? Would Arcane casters want all the Schools right away, or is something else more valuable? Would almost everyone grab Wild Shape?
This is a huge endeavor, excited to see it. I think in addition to rating multi-class combos, you should really organize them into Types. Ex: One-Trick-Pony or Specific Focus multiclasses like Shadow Blade Wielder, Flying Grapple n Drop Monster, Ashardalon's Runner; Generic Optimization multiclasses like Arty 1 Wizard X for armor and Con save proficiency, Pali 6/Full caster for better Smites, Fighter 2/Anything else for Nova Burst... I think even within a specific multi-class set there may be wildly different builds based on feat choices, race, etc that bear discussion.
Action Surge is good (or broken) whatever you play. (Even Rogue who can't benefit from 2 sneak attacks a turn, you can still use Action Surge if you missed.)
Action Surge is great but depending on your build that first level of fighter may not be particularly useful for you. If I don't have something to do with my bonus action I like to pick up Cunning Action because every character can benefit from expertise.
After this series, a tier ranking of the different monster types would be great (aberrations, dragons, undead, etc). Something for the DMs too and not just the players. 🙂
This sounds awesome! My first thoughts on the challenge this ranking represents is how to judge the opportunity costs of when a build “comes online” I’ve played with some awesome one-shot builds that I’m positive would require my party to carry me until the PC is ready. I think a lot of “what class to pick” dead levels happen around when you get your extra attack. When you get spells of a certain level. And if a subclass feature (or even class feature) was worth it for that dead level.
For me, even though I think it's a B-Tier multiclass, I always love the Eldritch Knight/Wizard combo it's got so much versatility regardless of wizard subclass and you get all the great stuff from fighter even if you stop just at 5 levels(though you should go to 7 minimum for that bonus action attack).
Subclasses make this very difficult but in terms of some simple let very synergistic multi-classes are starting as either an artificer or sorcerer (1-3 levels) and multiclassing into wizard and warlock/bard respectively. This gives a proficiency in constitution saving throws and some good starting bonuses. For example 3 in battle smith artificer/17 in blade dancer gives constitution proficiencies, using intelligence for weapons, infusions (& a pet) and still gets 9th level spells eventually.
Weird combo that works really well is Shadow Monk/Hexblade Warlock-I think partially because the Kii Points help mitigate some of the spell casting (almost the same way a sorlock). There is also Paladin/Barbarian builds that compliment eachother-but do have drawbacks (rage dispelling a paladin’s spell and can’t wear heavy armor).
I would suggest one of the criteria for A or B tier is the necessity of taking specific subclasses. For instance a paladin hexblade is amazing but a paladin, great old one may not be as powerful.
Ooof I could see this being an extremely long series because there is so much nuance. I also wonder how they’ll factor in subclass-specific multiclassing. For example, an arcane trickster/wizard is an S tier imo, but a swashbuckler/wizard would be a B tier for me. I guess by the tier list criteria rogue/wizard is B tier because it’s build dependent.
Very interested in this one ! I've been spending countless of hours trying to find multiclassing combos for strong, cool, fun and/or thematic characters ..
Just to make it even more complicated maybe factor in whether they are good at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20. As some multi-classes shine at low levels while others don't really come together until higher levels (which many games don't reach).
Sorcadins are generally my go-to characters. I just enjoy the versatility it brings, alllowing you damage foes in various ways (spells, melee combat or smite). My Divine Soul Sorcadin is probably my favorite main all time. (Using the homebrew expanded spell list rules of the Dungeon Dudes, of which I chose Twilight domain)
Might have to do a series with subclasses too. But for now, yall got a good grasp of what your looking for. Might need to look into more of the "min max" aspect rather than the role play aspect. Maybe start with a single class and go through all the multiclass options with said class. Example would be starting with sorcerer, and explore all the classes that work best with it for a weekly video.
I did a character based on cantrips, and multi classed in all the spell caster classes. And only took cantrips. We played an adventure that I received a crown that allows you to double cast cantrips. I was in a large group, so I was just a carry but was fun to play it. I was a Kender too. So I was a wizard that was never taken seriously.
As a big fan of multiclassing in general, I’m very much looking forward to this, though I would like to point out that, while considering ability scores is important, having mismatched primary ability scores doesn’t mean a multiclass combo will be bad, a good example is a wizard with a 1/2 level dip into cleric, it’s often seen as one of the best support builds despite it’s non-synergistic primary ability scores
When looking at the overall viability of multi classing, I think you need to look at both what you gain in the 1st 3 levels, and what you lose at the top end. Since most campaigns only go to level 10 or 11, I think seeing what is lost at levels 8, 9, 10, 11 is worthwhile to include in any ranking. Most times I see an argument made for losing a capstone feature and it's not a big deal.. But if you were never going to make it 20 levels, then that's not really the opportunity cost. Overall, ranking multi classing is tough, and I look forward to your future ranking videos.
My favourite multiclass would be a Steel Dancer. Take 3 levels in Artificer (Battlesmith), grab the sweet stuff there, then multiclass into Bladesinger. Intelligence for attack and damage rolls is awesome, infusions are providing your basic magic items, a homunculus, steel defender and a familiar are your life insurance while absolutely shred everything in your way. This also comes with a longsword instead of a rapier for flavour. And you're going to be highly proficient in some vital skills as a nice surplus. The "downside" is getting some high tier spells somewhat later.
Path of the Beast Barbarian and Horizon Walker Ranger. When you rage choose the claw option for an additional attack that Horizon Walker can turn into Force damage
One of my favorites that I'm using right now actually, we are one session away from finishing Rime of the Frostmaiden with him, is my first level in Hexblade, and everything after that in College of Swords Bard. My booming blades are nuts, my AC is astronomical, my face skills are unrivaled...it's as close to the Gish fantasy I have really gotten with 5e, and can be lots of fun
I've recently been mixing my favorite classes together and subclasses that I haven't used before. An echo knight fighter/phantom rogue, an oath of vengeance paladin/ celestial warlock, Then a way of the kensei monk/college of creation bard
Personally my Criteria for Multi classing is based on the following: 1.) Is multi-classing this way better than continuing the same class level progression? 2.) How many levels do you need to get this off the ground? 3.) What opportunity cost is incurred. 4.) How do ability scores line up 5.) Long term value from the Multiclass. 6.) Does the second class overshadow your primary class? 7.) Do the classes mix flavor wise?
There's a few multiclass combos that I want to note in addition to filling out the form. The first is the most powerful and variable IMHO: The High Elf Champion Fighter 3/Phantom Rogue 17 or the Shadar-Kai Champion Fighter 6/Phantom Rogue 14 (Both with Elven Accuracy). The difference is whether you want the extra feat and extra attack, or the extra damage from the Phantom Rogue 17. The other two are the Drunk (Druid/Monk) so the AC boosts and the attributes are both primaries, and the Artificer 1/Wizard 19. Artificer is the best start for Wizard unless it's a Bladesinger, wherein Rogue is the best first-level dip.
You have to mention the potency of the synergy, because a perfect synergy can be "nice" like warlock spells and getting sorcery points that only works if you start pressuring the rules, but it might also have the kind of synergy as polearm master+sentinel. I would call it "having a true combo" in that case. Having one of those "true combo's" that enhance eachother to such an insane degree should instantly qualify for a tier higher then all the other features allow. I mentioned sorcery points as a nice to have, but the same warlock/sorcerer combination also has one of those 'true combo's, having quickened spell metamagic so that you can combine slinging high tier spells with eldritch blasts for tonnes of control and damage on top of the spells.
In an older video, you discussed a fighter/assassin rogue multiclass, calling it a commando, but in a more recent video, the same title was present, but it was fighter/ranger. I'm curious which of the two is a better combo!
I can't wait. My sorcerer chose to dip into knowledge domain clerics. It's not super optimal but he has proficiency in knowledge skills and expertise in 2 of them.
Sorry if it was mentioned and I missed it, but are multi-class setups where you start with the class you only want to dip into (e.g. taking a heavy armor class at 1st level) treated as part of the class where you plan to take most of your levels, or the class you pick at level 1?
A combo I'm playing with currently is an Alchemist Artificer with a two level dip in Genie Warlock. Technically it's a B-Tier multiclass, because it benefits from both Int and Cha, but taking the right Warlock spell choices can minimize this, and the benefit of using short-rest Warlock spell slots to create Elixirs is pretty huge. It's enough to elevate the Alchemist from being really bad to high B-tier. In my own opinion.
Starting with Artificer and jumping back and forth between Artillerist and Hexblade has been a TON of fun in my Strahd game. I’m at level 6 (3-3) and I am just moving enemies around the battlefield.
I have an issue with the criteria Mainly, some combos are stronger for starting in one class, but don't make that class the primary For example, I think most paladin multiclasses are better of starting paladin for the heavy armor proficiency, but end up stronger with more full caster levels for more smiting. The same could be said of a fighter/wizard who took 2 levels of fighter for heavy armor and action surge, then 18 levels in wizard for all the spellcasting.
Heh, I've got a Rogue/Barbarian multiclass, and I'm loving the thing. Currently level 3 in both. Reckless Sneak Attacks have been so useful for my character so far.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on a rogue/sorcerer multiclass. It's probably going to be around B tier, but I love the idea of slinking around, firing spells from the shadows.
That’s sounds a lot like the next character I am hoping to play. An aberrant mind sorcerer because they can cast all of their psionic spells without verbal components. Though I was wondering if picking up skill expert to get expertise on stealth would be better than multiclassing as sneak attack doesn’t work with spells.
I did a storm sorcerer and Swashbuckler multiclass. Even splits 5/5. It was my pirate character. It was a lot of fun; but wasn't very sustainable after lvl 10. I focused on using shadow blade.
Arcane trickster works well for this. Actually, you can do this really well with a pure Druid. They can be Dex focused and get stealth from background. Plus wildshape creates a ton of options. And, as a full caster they definitely have spell slinging covered.
Probably B-C, you really only benefit from 1 level dip into sorcerer. Beyond that you are neither as good as a straight rogue, not as good as a straight sorcerer. And this is still only if you don't go Arcane Trickster for your rogue subclass. I'm sure it is super fun, but not particularly powerful. For that particular fantasy you'd typically just go straight Shadow Sorcerer. Or if it was a one-shot starting at high level, then 6 Shadow Monk + X Divine Soul Sorcerer could be fun - BA teleport then hit enemies with Inflict Wounds at Adv.
As your discussed the A tier I just had to think of sorcadin... "Well you first gonna take even 5-7 levels in your baseclass but than afterwards the new features you gain, just outperform the features you would gain from your original class..." Thats exactly sorcadin...
A fun though not optimal multiclass is an artillerist with a 2 lvl dip into Bard. It’s a very flexible build, you get decent utility, support, damage and great for role playing and being the face of the party.
While I've never played D&D, I have been playing BG3 EA, which eventually led me to your videos. They are well done. My hope for this new series is that you also let us know which multiclasses work if you are restricted to PHB.
As I told my friend once, I do believe that almost any build of any class that gets two levels in fighter just to get that sweet action surge ends up a lot stronger
As others in the comments have pointed out, Subclass matters a lot with multiclassing (and it's a shame that the form doesn't let you account for that), for example: One multiclass that's very good despite having different spellcasting modifiers is the Storm Sorcerer who dips 2 levels into Tempest Cleric, as it not only mitigates some of the weaknesses, but also enhances what they're both great at. They get some nice proficiency with martial weapons and heavy armor, which makes them surprisingly tanky. If they start with Sorcerer, they get proficiency with con saves, which helps with maintaining concentration. The clericspells they cast are probably mostly 1st level buff or healing spells, so the spellcasting modifier doesn't matter as much. The main reason you would is that their abilities synergize, as the Tempest Cleric doesn't normally get the best lightning/thunder spells, but the Storm Sorcerer, who does get those spells (Lightning Bolt, Thunderstep) gets to maximize the damage with the Tempest Cleric Channel Divinity; Destructive Wrath. And with the Tasha's Metamagic option Transmuted Spell, they're able to turn any of their spells into Lightning or Thunder (which lets them do something like do max damage by transmuting Disintegrate into Thunder and then using Channel divinity). The only price is that they have to wait two levels to gain their higher level spells, which isn't as bad, as they still get the highest spellslots, and combining Upcasting, and Channel Divinity; Destructive Wrath, makes those spellslots really count.
I think the strength of most multiclass combos is much more dependent on which sub-classes you combine than on which base classes you combine.
Exactly. You don't dip into warlock as a bard, you dip into hexblade as a swords or valor bard.
@@studentofsmith You dip into Hexblade primarily for medium armor, shields, and the Shield spell, which means it's really good for any Bard, not just gish Bards. Subclass themes don't have to match thematically to be a good mechanical multiclass option. In fact, I would say the Valor Bard/Hexblade multiclass is actually kind of bad because it introduces redundancy with medium armor given by both sucblasses. Valor Bard is not a gish no matter how much the book pretends it is, it's about giving you medium armor and shield proficiency, so you're much better off going Sorcerer for the Shield spell, or Undead Warlock if you really want to dip Warlock (or you can do both Sorc and Warlock if you're starting at higher levels). Plus, the Undead Warlock dip is really really good as well regardless of Bard subclass: at-will frighten effect with Repelling Blast is very strong for control.
@@eshansingh1 you absolutely do not dip into hexblade for some proficiencies and spells LMAO it’s so you can use charisma as a primary stat for martial weapons and reduce how MAD a character is… that’s it
@@bobswag710 thats just wrong. Hexblade is an optimal multiclass for most bards
@@studentofsmith I dip warlock as an eloquence bard to get the invocation to cast disguise self at will while also getting EB and hex. Gives me roleplay benefits and some damage output.
Great video, dudes! I would definitely recommend keeping in mind the longevity of the average *realistic* campaign, especially as it relates to those B- and C-tier multiclasses. With those tiers, as you said, it makes a big difference when you take your second-class levels, so we want the build to stay relevant rather than waiting for a level that may never come.
If you are rating multiclass options there is one thing you absolutely must do : get in touch with Colby from D4. You are already friends with him so it should be easy. His input will be invaluable to your list, few channels dig deeper into multi-classing than Colby's, and his spreadsheets should be a great boon to your ranking criteria.
Would love to see multiple crossover videos for this.
I'm still very pleased that these guys, Colby from d4, and treantmonk collaborated.
They are my favorite in the community!
I would also love to see this!
@@kinjunranger140 So do I, but Colby can provide more information for them. More information is almost always better than less.
I was going to recommend getting in touch with D4 as well! Incredible channel that really has such a creative take on character exploration while also really highlighting strengths that are often overlooked
Kelly gets an S-tier for their multi-classing of jackets!
*in the distance*
HE'S SO GOD DAMN COOL!!!!
I was gonna say! Which class gives you the drip!??
@@christopherhall6408 bard
@@christopherhall6408 Barbarian or Monk. Can focus all your effort on the drip with 0 regard for protection
Their? His*
I think "time and resources required for the combo to come online" and "average power in the interim of that event" should factor in.
That was part of the criteria they gave.
Yay! A whole series to prove that Four elements monk / PHB Beast Master ranger is the S-Tier combo.
I'm gonna need you to elaborate, dear. How does it work?
Please, elaborate
@@_fedmar_ Same stats are used, Wisdom and Dex, 4 element monk lets you use magic at a range while the beast companion distracts from up close, and if the enemy manages to approach you can ditch your bow and the disadvantage you would otherwise get to hit them up close with your fists or a touch range magic attack. Though the main draw is Ranger+monk in general rather than those 2 subclasses specifically.
Please don't elaborate, and make everyone theory craft until they make the strongest 4-Elements Monk/PHB Beast Master Ranger they can.
@@theinsanegamer1024 …
I have no idea if you are serious, but putting it out there: I am not. This is my Z-tier combo. I would rather play a commoner.
I think what is crucial is to divide “generic” subclasses of the class and a few specific subclasses.
Then if you give a ranking you could give warlock (generic) and warlock (hexblade), bard (generic) and bard (swords). I think this would enable you to parse out the details more and identify clearly the value of multiclassing two classes versus multiclassing due to a specific subclass being a really strong multiclass
Also moon druid. The subclass the requires precisely zero stats to be above 13 to be viable.
Yeah. Specific sort of nonstandard subclasses work so well with multiclassing but others, not so much.
Also curious how the subclasses are going to weigh in, certain ones like the gloom stalker and hex blade are practically built for multi-classing.
Wow I have a feeling this is going to be a massive endeavor there's just so many combinations. I eagerly look forward to it
it's only 156 combos
unless including subclasses which brings out 11434 (barring 3 kinda useless subclasses that no one uses)
@@captainpolar2343 Yeah I was thinking of the subclasses
So many variables i don't envy you. Not just when to dip, or how far to dive in but also which subclasses, particularly with options like hexblade that utterly change the way the class functions.
I forsee Fighter, Sorcerer and Warlock getting a lot of S tier.
No cleric?
That's hilarious because my fighter/warlock/sorcerer multiclass just died... I give it an A though.
I think fighter will pair well with the most other classes as a base class, I think cleric will have the most good pairings as a 1-3 lvl dip.
I can see that they give you a lot of options but a little down I see Cleric, Rogue and maybe Bard. Best multiclasses give you more options that are useful in ways that the core class can benifit from or can be utilized more broadly.
Action surge+double maxed call lightning on a fighter dipped tempest cleric for a flat 60 damage at level 7 (70+ damage if you casted spiritual weapon beforehand for an extra bonus action attack) is insane and a fun boss finisher combo 😂
This sounds like it could be a really in-depth series. I can't wait!!!
This is my first Dungeon Dudes survey! So happy to finally contribute to you guys! love the channel!
Same should be fun.
Omg I was just thinking "I want to see a Dungeon Dudes Multiclass tier list video" like literally 3 hours ago. Looking forward to them.
As someone who's currently playing a Soulknife Rogue/Bard multiclass and has really been having a hard time making a decision on how to balance the levels, I really appreciate that you're doing this series!
I love your content, and can't wait to see your thoughts.
A new 5e tier ranking series? Absolutely looking forward to this! Thanks Dudes!
I’m really excited for this series! I tend to shy away from multiclassing because I like the high level abilities too much, so it’ll be nice to get a more educated perspective!
I have played BECMI in ‘84 and every edition since, mainly as DM. Always learn things from your videos. Very thankful for them.
Even though it’s slightly MAD, a single level dip into (Peace Domain) Cleric helped my Wizard a ton. Getting access to medium armor, shields, and healing (especially at range on a Bonus Action) was a godsend.
I took 1 fighter into wizard into tempest cleric, and dear god is it fun to play but holy shit does it hurt my brain
Note that some spell lists are more forgiveable towards a low spellcasting ability. Bards depend on their DC, while Clerics can often function pretty well with a lower Wis.
great idea for a series of videos! for me, the most difficult part is to know when to jump from one class to another, especially if the campaign will be limited in its total level
One of my favorite Multi-classes I have discovered lately is a Circle of the Moon Druid taking levels in Monk. Either 1 level just for the unarmored defense, 2 levels for Ki points and faster movement, or go all the way to level 5 for multi-attack. Getting those benefits in animal form are hilarious "Why yes, my Giant Elk form does have an AC of 17 and can hip check after its normal attack" (hip check would be an "unarmed attack" for martial arts bonus action attack)
In a similar vein, Moon Druid + Bear totem barbarian also has some silly results. Picking one of the high-HP animals and then raging makes you have ludicrous HP
I have this dilemma. Wildshape ac is terrible, but I really think the level 20 capstone druid ability is so good that you would regret not ever having a chance to get to. It all depends if the character is a on indefinite campaign or will definitely end at a set level
@@SmokeSolo1975 yeah, but how many campaigns actually make it to LV 20?
@@whiteraven562 Moon+Bear Barbarian really isn't very good. Sure you have lots of HP but that is all you have going for you. Your damage sucks, your casting sucks, your MAD as hell... Druid-Monk is much better but still only C tier IMO, because your WS AC never gets that high (e.g. Allosaurus with a +4 Wis druid-monk has AC 15 instead of AC 13, Bristled Moorbounder has no change in AC, Brownbear has AC 14 instead of 11), and you have a sever trade off between getting more ki points from Monk or upgrading you WS forms from Druid. A 1 level monk dip is ok, but more than that and you really aren't getting enough to be worth the sacrifice.
The best MC if you want to maximize WS for Moon Druid is 2 levels of Paladin, but even then don't bother until you're at least level 6 druid.
@@agilemind6241 Yeah, Moon Druid + Barbarian is more of a "the flavor of this is fun" combo than a "mechanically this is amazing" combo. because turning into a Moose (Giant Elk stats) and then raging is hilarious
I'm a big fan of Ranked Choice Voting for something like this! It will really help to see when two options are actually very close.
Ranked choice doesn't do that. Voting normally would do that
@@seekingfurtherlight34 Ranked choice is better for something like this. If everyone only gets to vote once and 80% chose option A, and 15% chose option B (with the last 5% sprinkled about on options C/D/E/F) it is hard to tell how close options A and B are to each other. With ranked choice voting if the 80% pick A for #1 spot and B for #2 spot, while the 15% pick B for #1 and A for #2 (and the C/D/E/F options still get very little in the top tier spots) then it is much easier to see that option A and B are both very well liked (almost a tie), rather than option A being a clear winner.
Yay! You dudes always come out with a highly relevant video when I need it! I was just looking at starting a Bladesinger Wiz and wondering if there’s a good multiclass that can help fill out the weaknesses of that subclass. Very awesome my dudes.
One multiclass that I loved to put up against my players on a oneshot and would love to test as a player is a Loxodon Battle Smith Artificer (3) & War Magic Wizard (17).
Str 8, Dex 10, Con 17(+2), Wis 14(+1), Int 15 Cha 14 starting off as Artificer till lvl 3. War Caster feat on lvl 7 and past that just ASI. You can give yourself a +1 shield and +1 weapon that uses your Int. Cha and Dex can be swaped if you prefer, but I like to just soak up all the damages purely based on HP. This boyo gets 70+ hp and 20+ AC by level 10 while being mainly a Wizard. You only ever need 2 stats, Con and Int. Keep your steel defender beside you and make sure that he uses his reaction to make the biggest hitter nearby to have disadvantage on hitting you.
If on a higher stats table or if you can for sure raise the stats without the ASI, Fey touched on 11. Choose bless as the spell from Fey Touched and you have advantage on keeping concentration with a +7 minimum. Other good options for feats: Mobile, Sentinel, Mage Slayer and Tough
The combo can also be made with Bladesinging, getting the Enhanced Arcane Focus instead of the +1 shield Infusion. Not as tanky, but can dish out way more pain.
Super excited to dive into this with you guys 😁
You may wish to reconsider the 'the class will be both the first class taken and the one in which we take the majority of levels' criterion for certain classes.
Gaining proficiency in Constitution saving throws by taking first level in Fighter followed by a second level in Fighter at some point for action surge is really potent for many builds.
And for Wizards, first level in Artificer for Constitution saving throw proficiency doesn't even cost you spell slot progression (although you are sacrificing Wisdom saving throws and slowing the level at which you can learn the actual spells).
I hope you get enough engagement to do a full series on this. Would love to see this for every class and subclass. I mean damn.
I like the conversation generated from the ranking series, and I’m here to watch whatever you make. I would like to see more stuff I can drop into my games. Maybe a whole series on encounters that showcases how you put them together? Some art and stat blocks. Lot of work to create, but people are hungry for stuff they can slot into their games. You guys are great.
Is there some way that you can capture the difference between different dips into the same class? For example, a one level dip into Hexblade Warlock vs. a three level dip into Genie?
I think a criteria for this that might put them in the B or C tier that you did not mention was two classes that load a whole bunch of class abilities into one 'box' on the character sheet. For example, I had an idea for a Rogue/Bard multi-class, and the challenge became the number of things that the character could do on their Bonus action.
Yeah, bonus action economy becomes problematic with lots of multiclass builds. The more obvious one is when you get classes that synergize well, but then get certain dead levels because features don't stack (like extra attack).
I know you probably got plenty of this content in the pipeline, but I'd love guests to come on and talk about some of their favorite multi-classes. Maybe Tulok Barbrarian, XP to lvl 3, runesmith and others. Always good to band together against such perilous odds :)
I wish you guys the best of luck with this ranking! a tough one but super interested to hear your thoughts
I can see a lot of these multiclassing builds that are MAD be lower on the rankings scale, with a few exceptions here and there, but those would be very niche.
I try to limit my multiclassing to 2 classes, or if I do more than that, they are a specialized character that takes advantage of very similar ability scores. It can take a bit of research and nuances, but some builds can be REALLY epic.
I think a lot of tier lists tend to think about power ceilings, which is great. But *competent* versatility and reliability are also important.
Love it. Really looking forward to this series.
Very hyped for this series! Looking forward to seeing these videos pop up.
I didn't answer the survey because your system assumes that the first class you pick is going to be the one you invest most levels into. Most of my multiclassing so far has involved taking one or two levels of one class and then taking all my other levels in another class afterwards. If I like playing an Artificer1-WizardX, am I supposed to say that a good multiclass option for the Artificer is Wizard, or am I supposed to say that a good multiclass option for Wizard is Artificer?
I've been playing a Cleric1-DruidX for a couple years (allows me to prepare more spells), alongside a friend who is Artificer1-WizardX (for CON saves, armor, Cure Wounds and more). I also want to try a Sorcerer1-BardX at some point (for CON saves and cantrips).
Sounds great! Can't wait for the first episode
I know my tortle druid of the stars/artificer alchemist character is not a good multiclass. But boy has it been fun to RP and has it's cool moments in combat.
There are a LOT of options available. Just factoring in the number of class combinations, there are 156, but each of those comes with its own permutations.
One potential issue I see with your stated criteria is when you START with a 1-level dip in a different class, but the majority of your levels are in the second class. Starting with a level of Artificer or Fighter is really good for a wizard (CON save proficiency and armor proficiencies); will you talk about that under the Wizard or under the Fighter/Artificer? Wizard is absolutely the primary class of that build, but it's not the first class.
I know the blood hunter class won't be considered, but blood hunter/battle smith is both an effective and highly flavorful class. I remember charging up my guns with my own blood.
My opinion: you can multiclass out of armorer artificer into LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE and still be decent to amazing, since you can wear plate while not needing 15 str and you don't need such a high dex due to infusions. Also, this allows you to focus on int, con, and whatever stat your multiclass needs, and if you choose abjuration wizard, you have a spellcasting juggernaut with an arcane ward and only needing to invest in int and con and then dex with left over asi
Looking forward to the series of 2 class multiclassing and hoping for following 3 and 4 class combos.
What about a specific sub class? Like, Hexblade is an obvious example. Base Warlock doesn't add a lot. Hexblade is the game changer.
There may also need to be sort of distinction between a class that makes for a good multi-classing opportunity vs one specific subclass that is really useful.
The obvious example being Warlock, where picking up 1-3 levels in Hexblade can have AMAZING synergy with other Charisma based classes (and is generally gonna be S tier), whereas all the others don’t give you nearly as much bang for your buck.
Clerics fall into a similar vein, where what you’re really picking up are the domain perks. And there’s so many, there’s probably at least ONE domain that could pull off a B tier (possibly high C tier) for any given multiclass.
I’m not sure how that might work out in the rankings, because that can be some HEFTY swing in viability for multiclassing between the class overall vs a specific subclass. Maybe rank the class overall, with a quick mention for specific subclasses that really stand out above the rest? I just worry that’s gonna end up kinda repetitive, with a lot of classes bring B or C tier generally, except for some of their best subclasses that are A or S.
One multiclass that should go into D-tier is Monk/Sorcerer. The Ki point/sorcery point system means you never have enough of either to do what you want. Also they don't share a casting stat, so you need to invest in 2 mental stats *and* dex *and* probably con so you don't die the first time someone looks at you from your D6 hitdice
Agreed. Similarly, if we dont consider specific subclasses, then Barbarian+caster is also fairly low on the list.
Most effective multiclass at my table I have seen was Cleric/Sorcerer dip where they nat 20 on a Level 4 Chromatic Orb and used their Storm cleric channel divinity to maximum damage
I understand and respect that you want to emphasize performance in your rankings.
Historically, what I´ve personally valued most is playing characters with large or unique toolboxes, that reward me being creative. In my experience, high player creativity often beats high character performance (given the GM knows what she´s doing).
I think fun and style should be considered as well, so I suggest you give a little prize at the end - to the builds you feel are the most fun and stylish, regardless of their performance ranking.
I hope these videos will cover the roleplaying of multiclassing. Want to be a Wizard? Who trained you? A Cleric? How much time do you spend in church? A Warlock? How did you meet your patron? Some of this can be built into the character's background up front (e.g. the Acolyte background for a budding Cleric); if it's not I would be inclined to require a related Feat be taken at 4th Level before allowing the multiclass at 5th.
We all know that some of the "best" multiclass options are Defensive Dips; adding a couple of levels of Twilight Cleric or Hexblade Warlock to a Sorcerer for example. Don't forget that if you are adding a dip that you will not use for its offensive capabilities then a high primary ability score may not be that important.
One set of multiclass options that should work, but often don't, are the Domain Doubledowns. An Aasimar Divine Soul/Celestial Sorlock is an astounding healer. Mixing the psionic subclasses (Aberrant Mind, Great Old One, Psi Warrior, Soul Knife) just gets you a bunch of overlapping abilities.
I'm coming to the view that it should be easy to rewrite 5E to get rid of Class completely, converting all abilities to Feats that are gained each time a character levels up. At the simplest level, how many fighter-types would take Action Surge at first level, delaying Heavy Armor to 2nd (when they can afford some)? Would Arcane casters want all the Schools right away, or is something else more valuable? Would almost everyone grab Wild Shape?
This is a huge endeavor, excited to see it. I think in addition to rating multi-class combos, you should really organize them into Types.
Ex: One-Trick-Pony or Specific Focus multiclasses like Shadow Blade Wielder, Flying Grapple n Drop Monster, Ashardalon's Runner;
Generic Optimization multiclasses like Arty 1 Wizard X for armor and Con save proficiency, Pali 6/Full caster for better Smites, Fighter 2/Anything else for Nova Burst...
I think even within a specific multi-class set there may be wildly different builds based on feat choices, race, etc that bear discussion.
Action Surge is good (or broken) whatever you play. (Even Rogue who can't benefit from 2 sneak attacks a turn, you can still use Action Surge if you missed.)
Action Surge is great but depending on your build that first level of fighter may not be particularly useful for you. If I don't have something to do with my bonus action I like to pick up Cunning Action because every character can benefit from expertise.
After this series, a tier ranking of the different monster types would be great (aberrations, dragons, undead, etc). Something for the DMs too and not just the players. 🙂
Great idea; can’t wait to watch.
This sounds awesome! My first thoughts on the challenge this ranking represents is how to judge the opportunity costs of when a build “comes online”
I’ve played with some awesome one-shot builds that I’m positive would require my party to carry me until the PC is ready. I think a lot of “what class to pick” dead levels happen around when you get your extra attack. When you get spells of a certain level. And if a subclass feature (or even class feature) was worth it for that dead level.
For me, even though I think it's a B-Tier multiclass, I always love the Eldritch Knight/Wizard combo it's got so much versatility regardless of wizard subclass and you get all the great stuff from fighter even if you stop just at 5 levels(though you should go to 7 minimum for that bonus action attack).
Eldritch Knight/Bladesinger is pretty solid.
2nd and Thanks 😊 again for a fantastically funny DnD live play last week! Loving Drakkenheim
Subclasses make this very difficult but in terms of some simple let very synergistic multi-classes are starting as either an artificer or sorcerer (1-3 levels) and multiclassing into wizard and warlock/bard respectively. This gives a proficiency in constitution saving throws and some good starting bonuses.
For example 3 in battle smith artificer/17 in blade dancer gives constitution proficiencies, using intelligence for weapons, infusions (& a pet) and still gets 9th level spells eventually.
Weird combo that works really well is Shadow Monk/Hexblade Warlock-I think partially because the Kii Points help mitigate some of the spell casting (almost the same way a sorlock).
There is also Paladin/Barbarian builds that compliment eachother-but do have drawbacks (rage dispelling a paladin’s spell and can’t wear heavy armor).
I would suggest one of the criteria for A or B tier is the necessity of taking specific subclasses. For instance a paladin hexblade is amazing but a paladin, great old one may not be as powerful.
Ooof I could see this being an extremely long series because there is so much nuance. I also wonder how they’ll factor in subclass-specific multiclassing. For example, an arcane trickster/wizard is an S tier imo, but a swashbuckler/wizard would be a B tier for me. I guess by the tier list criteria rogue/wizard is B tier because it’s build dependent.
Very interested in this one ! I've been spending countless of hours trying to find multiclassing combos for strong, cool, fun and/or thematic characters ..
Just to make it even more complicated maybe factor in whether they are good at levels 5, 10, 15 and 20. As some multi-classes shine at low levels while others don't really come together until higher levels (which many games don't reach).
I like this. Personally, I don’t really care about anything after level 10. Games just don’t really get that far.
Sorcadins are generally my go-to characters. I just enjoy the versatility it brings, alllowing you damage foes in various ways (spells, melee combat or smite). My Divine Soul Sorcadin is probably my favorite main all time. (Using the homebrew expanded spell list rules of the Dungeon Dudes, of which I chose Twilight domain)
So, when discussing the Sorlock are you going to exclude the Coffeelock spell slot combo on principle?
Might have to do a series with subclasses too. But for now, yall got a good grasp of what your looking for. Might need to look into more of the "min max" aspect rather than the role play aspect.
Maybe start with a single class and go through all the multiclass options with said class. Example would be starting with sorcerer, and explore all the classes that work best with it for a weekly video.
Kelly no! what is that color combo?! I normally adore your style, but this time...daring!
I did a character based on cantrips, and multi classed in all the spell caster classes. And only took cantrips.
We played an adventure that I received a crown that allows you to double cast cantrips.
I was in a large group, so I was just a carry but was fun to play it. I was a Kender too. So I was a wizard that was never taken seriously.
Hyped for this series.
As a big fan of multiclassing in general, I’m very much looking forward to this, though I would like to point out that, while considering ability scores is important, having mismatched primary ability scores doesn’t mean a multiclass combo will be bad, a good example is a wizard with a 1/2 level dip into cleric, it’s often seen as one of the best support builds despite it’s non-synergistic primary ability scores
When looking at the overall viability of multi classing, I think you need to look at both what you gain in the 1st 3 levels, and what you lose at the top end. Since most campaigns only go to level 10 or 11, I think seeing what is lost at levels 8, 9, 10, 11 is worthwhile to include in any ranking. Most times I see an argument made for losing a capstone feature and it's not a big deal.. But if you were never going to make it 20 levels, then that's not really the opportunity cost.
Overall, ranking multi classing is tough, and I look forward to your future ranking videos.
My favourite multiclass would be a Steel Dancer.
Take 3 levels in Artificer (Battlesmith), grab the sweet stuff there, then multiclass into Bladesinger.
Intelligence for attack and damage rolls is awesome, infusions are providing your basic magic items, a homunculus, steel defender and a familiar are your life insurance while absolutely shred everything in your way. This also comes with a longsword instead of a rapier for flavour.
And you're going to be highly proficient in some vital skills as a nice surplus.
The "downside" is getting some high tier spells somewhat later.
Path of the Beast Barbarian and Horizon Walker Ranger. When you rage choose the claw option for an additional attack that Horizon Walker can turn into Force damage
One of my favorites that I'm using right now actually, we are one session away from finishing Rime of the Frostmaiden with him, is my first level in Hexblade, and everything after that in College of Swords Bard. My booming blades are nuts, my AC is astronomical, my face skills are unrivaled...it's as close to the Gish fantasy I have really gotten with 5e, and can be lots of fun
I think you should define base class as 'the class you take more levels in', not '1st level taken'. again reference cleric 1 wizard 19 builds.
I've recently been mixing my favorite classes together and subclasses that I haven't used before. An echo knight fighter/phantom rogue, an oath of vengeance paladin/ celestial warlock, Then a way of the kensei monk/college of creation bard
Personally my Criteria for Multi classing is based on the following:
1.) Is multi-classing this way better than continuing the same class level progression?
2.) How many levels do you need to get this off the ground?
3.) What opportunity cost is incurred.
4.) How do ability scores line up
5.) Long term value from the Multiclass.
6.) Does the second class overshadow your primary class?
7.) Do the classes mix flavor wise?
There's a few multiclass combos that I want to note in addition to filling out the form. The first is the most powerful and variable IMHO: The High Elf Champion Fighter 3/Phantom Rogue 17 or the Shadar-Kai Champion Fighter 6/Phantom Rogue 14 (Both with Elven Accuracy). The difference is whether you want the extra feat and extra attack, or the extra damage from the Phantom Rogue 17.
The other two are the Drunk (Druid/Monk) so the AC boosts and the attributes are both primaries, and the Artificer 1/Wizard 19. Artificer is the best start for Wizard unless it's a Bladesinger, wherein Rogue is the best first-level dip.
You have to mention the potency of the synergy, because a perfect synergy can be "nice" like warlock spells and getting sorcery points that only works if you start pressuring the rules, but it might also have the kind of synergy as polearm master+sentinel.
I would call it "having a true combo" in that case. Having one of those "true combo's" that enhance eachother to such an insane degree should instantly qualify for a tier higher then all the other features allow. I mentioned sorcery points as a nice to have, but the same warlock/sorcerer combination also has one of those 'true combo's, having quickened spell metamagic so that you can combine slinging high tier spells with eldritch blasts for tonnes of control and damage on top of the spells.
S- primary spellcaster + cleric for heavy armor prof.
A- sorlock, soradin, wizard +2 fighter, palock
B- Bardbarian, ranger/rogue
In an older video, you discussed a fighter/assassin rogue multiclass, calling it a commando, but in a more recent video, the same title was present, but it was fighter/ranger. I'm curious which of the two is a better combo!
I can't wait. My sorcerer chose to dip into knowledge domain clerics.
It's not super optimal but he has proficiency in knowledge skills and expertise in 2 of them.
Can’t wait to see how much I hobbled myself as a Shadow Monk into Twilight Cleric!
Sorry if it was mentioned and I missed it, but are multi-class setups where you start with the class you only want to dip into (e.g. taking a heavy armor class at 1st level) treated as part of the class where you plan to take most of your levels, or the class you pick at level 1?
Yeah, sometimes you want heavy armor, Con saves, and action surge from fighter but you don't really want to play a fighter.
A combo I'm playing with currently is an Alchemist Artificer with a two level dip in Genie Warlock. Technically it's a B-Tier multiclass, because it benefits from both Int and Cha, but taking the right Warlock spell choices can minimize this, and the benefit of using short-rest Warlock spell slots to create Elixirs is pretty huge.
It's enough to elevate the Alchemist from being really bad to high B-tier. In my own opinion.
Starting with Artificer and jumping back and forth between Artillerist and Hexblade has been a TON of fun in my Strahd game. I’m at level 6 (3-3) and I am just moving enemies around the battlefield.
ok legit question here... how can i get Kelly's tips & tricks for fashion and outfit building?
Bard(Any)/Hexblade will always be my favorite multiclass.
Please do a video for every class with a ranking for every other class combined with it. You guys are creative
I have an issue with the criteria
Mainly, some combos are stronger for starting in one class, but don't make that class the primary
For example, I think most paladin multiclasses are better of starting paladin for the heavy armor proficiency, but end up stronger with more full caster levels for more smiting.
The same could be said of a fighter/wizard who took 2 levels of fighter for heavy armor and action surge, then 18 levels in wizard for all the spellcasting.
Looking forward to this series. Just finished the form.
i am so excited for this series
Heh, I've got a Rogue/Barbarian multiclass, and I'm loving the thing. Currently level 3 in both. Reckless Sneak Attacks have been so useful for my character so far.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on a rogue/sorcerer multiclass. It's probably going to be around B tier, but I love the idea of slinking around, firing spells from the shadows.
That’s sounds a lot like the next character I am hoping to play. An aberrant mind sorcerer because they can cast all of their psionic spells without verbal components. Though I was wondering if picking up skill expert to get expertise on stealth would be better than multiclassing as sneak attack doesn’t work with spells.
I did a storm sorcerer and Swashbuckler multiclass. Even splits 5/5. It was my pirate character. It was a lot of fun; but wasn't very sustainable after lvl 10. I focused on using shadow blade.
Arcane trickster works well for this. Actually, you can do this really well with a pure Druid. They can be Dex focused and get stealth from background. Plus wildshape creates a ton of options. And, as a full caster they definitely have spell slinging covered.
Probably B-C, you really only benefit from 1 level dip into sorcerer. Beyond that you are neither as good as a straight rogue, not as good as a straight sorcerer. And this is still only if you don't go Arcane Trickster for your rogue subclass. I'm sure it is super fun, but not particularly powerful.
For that particular fantasy you'd typically just go straight Shadow Sorcerer. Or if it was a one-shot starting at high level, then 6 Shadow Monk + X Divine Soul Sorcerer could be fun - BA teleport then hit enemies with Inflict Wounds at Adv.
This should really be in the multiclass rankings playlist.
omg they actually did it
As your discussed the A tier I just had to think of sorcadin...
"Well you first gonna take even 5-7 levels in your baseclass but than afterwards the new features you gain, just outperform the features you would gain from your original class..."
Thats exactly sorcadin...
A fun though not optimal multiclass is an artillerist with a 2 lvl dip into Bard. It’s a very flexible build, you get decent utility, support, damage and great for role playing and being the face of the party.
One multiclass combo I came across that made me an absolute threat on the battlefield is the circle of the Shepard druid and twilight domain cleric.
While I've never played D&D, I have been playing BG3 EA, which eventually led me to your videos. They are well done. My hope for this new series is that you also let us know which multiclasses work if you are restricted to PHB.
As I told my friend once, I do believe that almost any build of any class that gets two levels in fighter just to get that sweet action surge ends up a lot stronger
As others in the comments have pointed out, Subclass matters a lot with multiclassing (and it's a shame that the form doesn't let you account for that), for example:
One multiclass that's very good despite having different spellcasting modifiers is the Storm Sorcerer who dips 2 levels into Tempest Cleric, as it not only mitigates some of the weaknesses, but also enhances what they're both great at.
They get some nice proficiency with martial weapons and heavy armor, which makes them surprisingly tanky.
If they start with Sorcerer, they get proficiency with con saves, which helps with maintaining concentration.
The clericspells they cast are probably mostly 1st level buff or healing spells, so the spellcasting modifier doesn't matter as much.
The main reason you would is that their abilities synergize, as the Tempest Cleric doesn't normally get the best lightning/thunder spells, but the Storm Sorcerer, who does get those spells (Lightning Bolt, Thunderstep) gets to maximize the damage with the Tempest Cleric Channel Divinity; Destructive Wrath.
And with the Tasha's Metamagic option Transmuted Spell, they're able to turn any of their spells into Lightning or Thunder (which lets them do something like do max damage by transmuting Disintegrate into Thunder and then using Channel divinity).
The only price is that they have to wait two levels to gain their higher level spells, which isn't as bad, as they still get the highest spellslots, and combining Upcasting, and Channel Divinity; Destructive Wrath, makes those spellslots really count.