@@studentofsmith You dip into Hexblade primarily for medium armor, shields, and the Shield spell, which means it's really good for any Bard, not just gish Bards. Subclass themes don't have to match thematically to be a good mechanical multiclass option. In fact, I would say the Valor Bard/Hexblade multiclass is actually kind of bad because it introduces redundancy with medium armor given by both sucblasses. Valor Bard is not a gish no matter how much the book pretends it is, it's about giving you medium armor and shield proficiency, so you're much better off going Sorcerer for the Shield spell, or Undead Warlock if you really want to dip Warlock (or you can do both Sorc and Warlock if you're starting at higher levels). Plus, the Undead Warlock dip is really really good as well regardless of Bard subclass: at-will frighten effect with Repelling Blast is very strong for control.
@@eshansingh1 you absolutely do not dip into hexblade for some proficiencies and spells LMAO it’s so you can use charisma as a primary stat for martial weapons and reduce how MAD a character is… that’s it
@@studentofsmith I dip warlock as an eloquence bard to get the invocation to cast disguise self at will while also getting EB and hex. Gives me roleplay benefits and some damage output.
If you are rating multiclass options there is one thing you absolutely must do : get in touch with Colby from D4. You are already friends with him so it should be easy. His input will be invaluable to your list, few channels dig deeper into multi-classing than Colby's, and his spreadsheets should be a great boon to your ranking criteria.
I was going to recommend getting in touch with D4 as well! Incredible channel that really has such a creative take on character exploration while also really highlighting strengths that are often overlooked
Great video, dudes! I would definitely recommend keeping in mind the longevity of the average *realistic* campaign, especially as it relates to those B- and C-tier multiclasses. With those tiers, as you said, it makes a big difference when you take your second-class levels, so we want the build to stay relevant rather than waiting for a level that may never come.
I can see that they give you a lot of options but a little down I see Cleric, Rogue and maybe Bard. Best multiclasses give you more options that are useful in ways that the core class can benifit from or can be utilized more broadly.
Action surge+double maxed call lightning on a fighter dipped tempest cleric for a flat 60 damage at level 7 (70+ damage if you casted spiritual weapon beforehand for an extra bonus action attack) is insane and a fun boss finisher combo 😂
@@_fedmar_ Same stats are used, Wisdom and Dex, 4 element monk lets you use magic at a range while the beast companion distracts from up close, and if the enemy manages to approach you can ditch your bow and the disadvantage you would otherwise get to hit them up close with your fists or a touch range magic attack. Though the main draw is Ranger+monk in general rather than those 2 subclasses specifically.
As someone who's currently playing a Soulknife Rogue/Bard multiclass and has really been having a hard time making a decision on how to balance the levels, I really appreciate that you're doing this series! I love your content, and can't wait to see your thoughts.
Even though it’s slightly MAD, a single level dip into (Peace Domain) Cleric helped my Wizard a ton. Getting access to medium armor, shields, and healing (especially at range on a Bonus Action) was a godsend.
great idea for a series of videos! for me, the most difficult part is to know when to jump from one class to another, especially if the campaign will be limited in its total level
I think what is crucial is to divide “generic” subclasses of the class and a few specific subclasses. Then if you give a ranking you could give warlock (generic) and warlock (hexblade), bard (generic) and bard (swords). I think this would enable you to parse out the details more and identify clearly the value of multiclassing two classes versus multiclassing due to a specific subclass being a really strong multiclass
You may wish to reconsider the 'the class will be both the first class taken and the one in which we take the majority of levels' criterion for certain classes. Gaining proficiency in Constitution saving throws by taking first level in Fighter followed by a second level in Fighter at some point for action surge is really potent for many builds. And for Wizards, first level in Artificer for Constitution saving throw proficiency doesn't even cost you spell slot progression (although you are sacrificing Wisdom saving throws and slowing the level at which you can learn the actual spells).
I think a criteria for this that might put them in the B or C tier that you did not mention was two classes that load a whole bunch of class abilities into one 'box' on the character sheet. For example, I had an idea for a Rogue/Bard multi-class, and the challenge became the number of things that the character could do on their Bonus action.
Yeah, bonus action economy becomes problematic with lots of multiclass builds. The more obvious one is when you get classes that synergize well, but then get certain dead levels because features don't stack (like extra attack).
There may also need to be sort of distinction between a class that makes for a good multi-classing opportunity vs one specific subclass that is really useful. The obvious example being Warlock, where picking up 1-3 levels in Hexblade can have AMAZING synergy with other Charisma based classes (and is generally gonna be S tier), whereas all the others don’t give you nearly as much bang for your buck. Clerics fall into a similar vein, where what you’re really picking up are the domain perks. And there’s so many, there’s probably at least ONE domain that could pull off a B tier (possibly high C tier) for any given multiclass. I’m not sure how that might work out in the rankings, because that can be some HEFTY swing in viability for multiclassing between the class overall vs a specific subclass. Maybe rank the class overall, with a quick mention for specific subclasses that really stand out above the rest? I just worry that’s gonna end up kinda repetitive, with a lot of classes bring B or C tier generally, except for some of their best subclasses that are A or S.
Ooof I could see this being an extremely long series because there is so much nuance. I also wonder how they’ll factor in subclass-specific multiclassing. For example, an arcane trickster/wizard is an S tier imo, but a swashbuckler/wizard would be a B tier for me. I guess by the tier list criteria rogue/wizard is B tier because it’s build dependent.
I would suggest one of the criteria for A or B tier is the necessity of taking specific subclasses. For instance a paladin hexblade is amazing but a paladin, great old one may not be as powerful.
I can see a lot of these multiclassing builds that are MAD be lower on the rankings scale, with a few exceptions here and there, but those would be very niche. I try to limit my multiclassing to 2 classes, or if I do more than that, they are a specialized character that takes advantage of very similar ability scores. It can take a bit of research and nuances, but some builds can be REALLY epic.
After this series, a tier ranking of the different monster types would be great (aberrations, dragons, undead, etc). Something for the DMs too and not just the players. 🙂
I have an issue with the criteria Mainly, some combos are stronger for starting in one class, but don't make that class the primary For example, I think most paladin multiclasses are better of starting paladin for the heavy armor proficiency, but end up stronger with more full caster levels for more smiting. The same could be said of a fighter/wizard who took 2 levels of fighter for heavy armor and action surge, then 18 levels in wizard for all the spellcasting.
Is there some way that you can capture the difference between different dips into the same class? For example, a one level dip into Hexblade Warlock vs. a three level dip into Genie?
I understand and respect that you want to emphasize performance in your rankings. Historically, what I´ve personally valued most is playing characters with large or unique toolboxes, that reward me being creative. In my experience, high player creativity often beats high character performance (given the GM knows what she´s doing). I think fun and style should be considered as well, so I suggest you give a little prize at the end - to the builds you feel are the most fun and stylish, regardless of their performance ranking.
I did a character based on cantrips, and multi classed in all the spell caster classes. And only took cantrips. We played an adventure that I received a crown that allows you to double cast cantrips. I was in a large group, so I was just a carry but was fun to play it. I was a Kender too. So I was a wizard that was never taken seriously.
So many variables i don't envy you. Not just when to dip, or how far to dive in but also which subclasses, particularly with options like hexblade that utterly change the way the class functions.
As a big fan of multiclassing in general, I’m very much looking forward to this, though I would like to point out that, while considering ability scores is important, having mismatched primary ability scores doesn’t mean a multiclass combo will be bad, a good example is a wizard with a 1/2 level dip into cleric, it’s often seen as one of the best support builds despite it’s non-synergistic primary ability scores
You have to mention the potency of the synergy, because a perfect synergy can be "nice" like warlock spells and getting sorcery points that only works if you start pressuring the rules, but it might also have the kind of synergy as polearm master+sentinel. I would call it "having a true combo" in that case. Having one of those "true combo's" that enhance eachother to such an insane degree should instantly qualify for a tier higher then all the other features allow. I mentioned sorcery points as a nice to have, but the same warlock/sorcerer combination also has one of those 'true combo's, having quickened spell metamagic so that you can combine slinging high tier spells with eldritch blasts for tonnes of control and damage on top of the spells.
Weird combo that works really well is Shadow Monk/Hexblade Warlock-I think partially because the Kii Points help mitigate some of the spell casting (almost the same way a sorlock). There is also Paladin/Barbarian builds that compliment eachother-but do have drawbacks (rage dispelling a paladin’s spell and can’t wear heavy armor).
Sorcadins are generally my go-to characters. I just enjoy the versatility it brings, alllowing you damage foes in various ways (spells, melee combat or smite). My Divine Soul Sorcadin is probably my favorite main all time. (Using the homebrew expanded spell list rules of the Dungeon Dudes, of which I chose Twilight domain)
I know you probably got plenty of this content in the pipeline, but I'd love guests to come on and talk about some of their favorite multi-classes. Maybe Tulok Barbrarian, XP to lvl 3, runesmith and others. Always good to band together against such perilous odds :)
Personally my Criteria for Multi classing is based on the following: 1.) Is multi-classing this way better than continuing the same class level progression? 2.) How many levels do you need to get this off the ground? 3.) What opportunity cost is incurred. 4.) How do ability scores line up 5.) Long term value from the Multiclass. 6.) Does the second class overshadow your primary class? 7.) Do the classes mix flavor wise?
My favourite multiclass would be a Steel Dancer. Take 3 levels in Artificer (Battlesmith), grab the sweet stuff there, then multiclass into Bladesinger. Intelligence for attack and damage rolls is awesome, infusions are providing your basic magic items, a homunculus, steel defender and a familiar are your life insurance while absolutely shred everything in your way. This also comes with a longsword instead of a rapier for flavour. And you're going to be highly proficient in some vital skills as a nice surplus. The "downside" is getting some high tier spells somewhat later.
There's a few multiclass combos that I want to note in addition to filling out the form. The first is the most powerful and variable IMHO: The High Elf Champion Fighter 3/Phantom Rogue 17 or the Shadar-Kai Champion Fighter 6/Phantom Rogue 14 (Both with Elven Accuracy). The difference is whether you want the extra feat and extra attack, or the extra damage from the Phantom Rogue 17. The other two are the Drunk (Druid/Monk) so the AC boosts and the attributes are both primaries, and the Artificer 1/Wizard 19. Artificer is the best start for Wizard unless it's a Bladesinger, wherein Rogue is the best first-level dip.
A combo I'm playing with currently is an Alchemist Artificer with a two level dip in Genie Warlock. Technically it's a B-Tier multiclass, because it benefits from both Int and Cha, but taking the right Warlock spell choices can minimize this, and the benefit of using short-rest Warlock spell slots to create Elixirs is pretty huge. It's enough to elevate the Alchemist from being really bad to high B-tier. In my own opinion.
For me, even though I think it's a B-Tier multiclass, I always love the Eldritch Knight/Wizard combo it's got so much versatility regardless of wizard subclass and you get all the great stuff from fighter even if you stop just at 5 levels(though you should go to 7 minimum for that bonus action attack).
I know my tortle druid of the stars/artificer alchemist character is not a good multiclass. But boy has it been fun to RP and has it's cool moments in combat.
I can't wait. My sorcerer chose to dip into knowledge domain clerics. It's not super optimal but he has proficiency in knowledge skills and expertise in 2 of them.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on a rogue/sorcerer multiclass. It's probably going to be around B tier, but I love the idea of slinking around, firing spells from the shadows.
That’s sounds a lot like the next character I am hoping to play. An aberrant mind sorcerer because they can cast all of their psionic spells without verbal components. Though I was wondering if picking up skill expert to get expertise on stealth would be better than multiclassing as sneak attack doesn’t work with spells.
I did a storm sorcerer and Swashbuckler multiclass. Even splits 5/5. It was my pirate character. It was a lot of fun; but wasn't very sustainable after lvl 10. I focused on using shadow blade.
Arcane trickster works well for this. Actually, you can do this really well with a pure Druid. They can be Dex focused and get stealth from background. Plus wildshape creates a ton of options. And, as a full caster they definitely have spell slinging covered.
Probably B-C, you really only benefit from 1 level dip into sorcerer. Beyond that you are neither as good as a straight rogue, not as good as a straight sorcerer. And this is still only if you don't go Arcane Trickster for your rogue subclass. I'm sure it is super fun, but not particularly powerful. For that particular fantasy you'd typically just go straight Shadow Sorcerer. Or if it was a one-shot starting at high level, then 6 Shadow Monk + X Divine Soul Sorcerer could be fun - BA teleport then hit enemies with Inflict Wounds at Adv.
Very interested in this one ! I've been spending countless of hours trying to find multiclassing combos for strong, cool, fun and/or thematic characters ..
One important part of multiclassing that shouldn't be overlooked is that you don't always start lv1 with your 'main' class. Your 1st level dictates your starting proficiencies which can be very important for heavy armour and saving throws. Most spellcasters who multiclass at all into fighter, artificer, or sorcerer are often better off taking it at lv1 to get the CON saving throw proficiency. In the video you repeatedly mentioned 'starting class' so it's just important that the starting class isn't always the main class
You dudes absolutely MUST have seperate videos for the battle Smith artificer and hexblade warlock. Giving the opportunity for a single attribute attack stat and casting stat is insanely beneficial for multi-classing that can't be hand waved in amongst other subclasses and possibilities.
@@seekingfurtherlight34 Ranked choice is better for something like this. If everyone only gets to vote once and 80% chose option A, and 15% chose option B (with the last 5% sprinkled about on options C/D/E/F) it is hard to tell how close options A and B are to each other. With ranked choice voting if the 80% pick A for #1 spot and B for #2 spot, while the 15% pick B for #1 and A for #2 (and the C/D/E/F options still get very little in the top tier spots) then it is much easier to see that option A and B are both very well liked (almost a tie), rather than option A being a clear winner.
When looking at the overall viability of multi classing, I think you need to look at both what you gain in the 1st 3 levels, and what you lose at the top end. Since most campaigns only go to level 10 or 11, I think seeing what is lost at levels 8, 9, 10, 11 is worthwhile to include in any ranking. Most times I see an argument made for losing a capstone feature and it's not a big deal.. But if you were never going to make it 20 levels, then that's not really the opportunity cost. Overall, ranking multi classing is tough, and I look forward to your future ranking videos.
@cak01vej while this is true the Hexblade at this point is the Fireball of subclasses; in that it’s so good and commonly brought up that I actively want to avoid it.
My favorite sorlock is 10th genie warlock then getting at least 7th of any sorcerer. You can chain tons of short rests (if you have a short long rest) to get a ridiculous number of spell slots!
One of my favorite Multi-classes I have discovered lately is a Circle of the Moon Druid taking levels in Monk. Either 1 level just for the unarmored defense, 2 levels for Ki points and faster movement, or go all the way to level 5 for multi-attack. Getting those benefits in animal form are hilarious "Why yes, my Giant Elk form does have an AC of 17 and can hip check after its normal attack" (hip check would be an "unarmed attack" for martial arts bonus action attack)
In a similar vein, Moon Druid + Bear totem barbarian also has some silly results. Picking one of the high-HP animals and then raging makes you have ludicrous HP
I have this dilemma. Wildshape ac is terrible, but I really think the level 20 capstone druid ability is so good that you would regret not ever having a chance to get to. It all depends if the character is a on indefinite campaign or will definitely end at a set level
@@whiteraven562 Moon+Bear Barbarian really isn't very good. Sure you have lots of HP but that is all you have going for you. Your damage sucks, your casting sucks, your MAD as hell... Druid-Monk is much better but still only C tier IMO, because your WS AC never gets that high (e.g. Allosaurus with a +4 Wis druid-monk has AC 15 instead of AC 13, Bristled Moorbounder has no change in AC, Brownbear has AC 14 instead of 11), and you have a sever trade off between getting more ki points from Monk or upgrading you WS forms from Druid. A 1 level monk dip is ok, but more than that and you really aren't getting enough to be worth the sacrifice. The best MC if you want to maximize WS for Moon Druid is 2 levels of Paladin, but even then don't bother until you're at least level 6 druid.
@@agilemind6241 Yeah, Moon Druid + Barbarian is more of a "the flavor of this is fun" combo than a "mechanically this is amazing" combo. because turning into a Moose (Giant Elk stats) and then raging is hilarious
I like dipping a level in Cleric for classes without any armor proficiencies (wizard, Sorcerer) to boost up their AC. If a wizard in plate mail doesn’t scare you, I don’t know what will.
There are a LOT of options available. Just factoring in the number of class combinations, there are 156, but each of those comes with its own permutations. One potential issue I see with your stated criteria is when you START with a 1-level dip in a different class, but the majority of your levels are in the second class. Starting with a level of Artificer or Fighter is really good for a wizard (CON save proficiency and armor proficiencies); will you talk about that under the Wizard or under the Fighter/Artificer? Wizard is absolutely the primary class of that build, but it's not the first class.
Note that some spell lists are more forgiveable towards a low spellcasting ability. Bards depend on their DC, while Clerics can often function pretty well with a lower Wis.
My current favorite multiclass build is my paladin bard Vigo Bloodfist Background: gladiator Paladin skills I took: insite, persuasion. He's a half orc so I get intimidation. Taking paladin to level 6 When i multiclass into bard in gonna take deception as the 1 skill to take. Taking insite and deception as my expertise skills. I'm going whispers bard to try to tie into the conquest paladin. Level 12 is a long way to wait to be fully online but when stealth is poop for paladins why not just become someone who's suppose to be there (level 6 whisper bard ability) getting a bonus to a skill I have expertise in (deception)... sure I won't have spells for my level 4 or 5 slot but those are for upcasting and smite slots. Level 6 paladin everything else bard
It very much depends on the subclasses and the build you are playing, so these should be reflected in the survey. E.g., I'm currently playing a Divine Soul Sorcerer with a one level Order Cleric dip - and absolut blast to play. Once you dipped in level 2, you basically trigger Voice of Authority with Bless or later Haste in the first combat round, and then cast twinned Healing Word + an attack cantrip in subsequent rounds, triggering VoA every round. This would work with any support sorcerer build, but not with any other type of sorcerer build. And it only works with the Order Cleric, while other Cleric domains would create different synergies, and might work out as well. I'd suggest to add another survey that lets viewers suggest combinations of subclasses (including the option 'any') and build type. That would create a picture of combinations where nearly all subclasses work together well, and others, where hardly any combinations work. Or where certain types of build work well.
Just make sure you assign one multiclass to each tier before really starting, so each multiclass you discuss has clear examples to compare to instead of core examples for each tier forming over time when it's harder to move things around, it also makes the criteria for each tier a lot more concrete.
I also think there's. A HUGE difference between theory craft ranking a combo and having actually tried playing it in a real game. Sometimes a "good" combo is in achievable in a real game and a less than optimal build actually makes for a great character
One of my Favorite Multiclasses is start Artificer for 3 and take the Armorer and then go Wizard the rest of the way, I prefer either Bladesinger or Scribes but really any wizard gains so much. You still get 9th lv spells and slots, Con saves, Heavy armor proficiency, infusions like the Mind Sharpener and +1 arcane focus. Chefs kiss 💋
My favorite Multiclass of all time is rogue and 2-3 levels of barbarian. This relies on a special way of wording in sneak attack that requires you to use a finesse weapon. Use a rapier, but attack with strength. This allows you to combine sneak Attack and reckless Attack to guarantie a sneak Attack. There are other complimentations here. Rogues struggle with armor class and low health. The barbarians unarmored defense and rage features help here a lot. Barbarians need to go to the front line fast. Rogues can dash as a bonus action, and disengage if you wanna/need to play defensive. The drawback: this is semi-MAD. You need dexterity for AC and sneaking, strength for attacking, constitution for health and AC as well. You need to manage all this. And the mental stats for your rogue skills. I love this character, as it reminds me of slasher Horror. A strong and athletic warrior that sneaks upon his opponements and strikes with fatal results. As the victims allies stand there, frozen in place by shock, the other Party members storm in and Initiative is being rolled.
Before watching, I'd like to say my favorite high level build is combing monk with barbarian. Way of kensei + any barbarian subclass The synergy works best if you have potions of strength so you can increase your dex and rely on str when needed. At the DMs discretion you may use 3 stats to increase your unarmored defense. Since some monk weapons use strength and you have the option to just use str instead of dex you'll gain the +2 or more while raging.
2lvl Graviturgy Mage -> Shield Master Fighter Adjust Density+Shove lets you toss your opponent back into difficult terrain, into a mob of other attackers, off a ledge etc. It also lets you use help infiltration via climbing or the occasional need for increased density - Adjust Density is NOT an attack, it doesn't require a save and you can bring any "Large or smaller" flying creature down to ground lvl or sink most swimmers.
Most effective multiclass at my table I have seen was Cleric/Sorcerer dip where they nat 20 on a Level 4 Chromatic Orb and used their Storm cleric channel divinity to maximum damage
The Paladin is the most complicated because, if you want to go full martial, then you would pick either Barbarian or Fighter, but if you want spellcasting, your choices are Bard, Sorcerer, and Warlock.
An abjuration wizard with two levels of Fighter and getting armor of agathys from 1 level of celestial warlock or a feat or background is the best gish in the game. An echo knight fighter with 2 to 5 levels of war wizard is the best summoner in the game. Stacking 3 levels of fey wanderer ranger on an eloquence bard is insane. Stacking 3 levels of swarmkeeper ranger on just about anything is surprisingly good. Even if you are regularly in campaigns that go to 20, the only level 20 capstone arguably better than action surge is the cleric capstone, and that only breaks even depending on how your DM handles Divine Intervention. (I personally treat Divine Intervention as if it was the summon monster systems from all the Final Fantasy games, but your milage may vary.)
strongest multiclass I have at my table is a Way of Shadow Monk 7/ Gloomstalker Ranger 3 who's gotten his hands on Eyes of the Eagle, Headband of Intellect, and Gloves of Thievery. And Observant. And expertise in stealth and investigation. 22 passive perception and 27 passive investigate. He's an absolute nightmare
Not as an overall recommendation, but the multiclass combo I'm personally most proud of was for a thrown weapon spec goblin fighter, dipping 2 levels into artificer for infusions. This particular fighter is a Rune Knight, and the combo helps make good use of bonus actions, which fighters aren't usually very good at. And while his Intelligence is low for a main artificer, his spell selection for artificer is defensive reaction based for things like absorb elements, feather fall, and mending. The Returning infusion makes this build sustainable long-term, and the goblin ability means he can actually weave in and out of melee easily. Otherwise, between absorb elements and hill rune, he takes half damage from almost everything, has a 21 AC, and really well-rounded skill type abilities between runes and artificer levels, with 83 hit points at level 9.
Only being able to choose three for some of these was murder, there's so many things you could go into that'd be useful for some of these! Esp when it comes to subclass consideration, ik we're going general and u guess will go nuance but like hexblade as subclass not class do make things more complicated in weighing options. I also know I've thrown in some interesting curveballs 'cause of weird subclass combos that are amazing on classes that you wouldn't think work well together.
One thing I never seem to see brought up is what if feats are not used. How would some classes rank without great weapon master or other feats. Multi classing vs. Staying with the class and getting a feat or two extra can be better for some classes.
Possibly a C tier or D tier given your ratings but one of the most enjoyable characters I've created. Cleric/Wizard. Specifically, Standard Array stats Warforged Forge Cleric 6, War Wizard 14. It is low tier as you need/want to have Str 15 to wear heavy armour as well as split stats Int/Wis. Full caster gets to L9 slots, Multiclass gives access to more cantrips offsetting negative of War Wizard deflection ability. Spell choice is key to what you want to achieve, but both have ways to regain spell slots making the character better for longer throughout the day. High AC, very versatile and contributing significantly to my L8 party which includes a gloomstalker, a twilight cleric, a lore bard and pal/druid smite bear.
Well I haven't been able to play enough to know about the viability of builds. But I know enough that Sorcerer, Paladin, Warlock, and particularly Bard are going to be some top tier ones. The shared spellcasting stat combined with awesome perks from the base classes alone will be worth it and that's before subclassing. Like honestly just from my cursory knowledge Paladin/Hexblade Warlock and being able to use charisma for weapon attacks. That's gotta be S tier for the sheer fact you can focus on one stat not two.
@dungeon dudes: at 0:50 and again at 11:50 Kelly states that you're looking at STARTING in base X class for your evaluation. However, at 12:23 Monty contradicts that and states that the base X class will be the class you have the most levels in. The form chooses BOTH answers ("which would be the class a character begins with at 1st level, and where the characters takes the majority of their character levels") clearing up nothing at all. Nearly every multi-class I've seen is 1-6 front-loaded levels followed by X other class, which will by definition fail to meet both criteria, please pick a lane?
Sorlock S Tier. I've played one (Of course, I played it as fair as I can without abusing infinite spell slots) but it still feels VERY potent. And all you need is a 2 level dip into Hexblade. Plus points if you go with a Clockwork Sorcerer.
I didn't answer the survey because your system assumes that the first class you pick is going to be the one you invest most levels into. Most of my multiclassing so far has involved taking one or two levels of one class and then taking all my other levels in another class afterwards. If I like playing an Artificer1-WizardX, am I supposed to say that a good multiclass option for the Artificer is Wizard, or am I supposed to say that a good multiclass option for Wizard is Artificer? I've been playing a Cleric1-DruidX for a couple years (allows me to prepare more spells), alongside a friend who is Artificer1-WizardX (for CON saves, armor, Cure Wounds and more). I also want to try a Sorcerer1-BardX at some point (for CON saves and cantrips).
A lot of discussion in the comments about mechanical impacts of multiclassing. I agree with a lot of these but want to raise the other angle: Does the multiclass work narratively? for example as strong as a sorcerer warlock multiclass is mechanically, the narrative can often be confusing. Did your magic come from a pact with a powerful being or from a quirk of your birth. If it was from birth why did you make a pact? how do the sources of magic work together? There are some challenging narrative decisions to be made. I am not saying it is impossible or never works well, but it requires a bit of thinking to make work. For example perhaps the pact was made to help you control your natural wild source of magic. Other multiclasses that can be challenging narratively/characterisation are: Cleric/Warlock(non celestial) - Do you serve a god or your pact? Paladin/Rogue - are you lawful or chaotic? Barbarian/Rogue - are you sneaky or all-out-aggressive? (does getting sneak attack through attacking recklessly make sense?) Wizard/Sorcerer - Do you gain magic through study or through your heritage? Druid/Artificer - Do you serve nature or pursue industry. Again, I am not saying these cannot work narratively, just that they can be challenging to narratively weave together. Not sure if this deserves a place in the ranking for this video series but it is an interesting related topic.
Ironically just built a Psi Warrior fighter (subclass is in Tasha’s). Then dipping into Artificer (just 2 levels). I see it as a A rank If you’re curious, race is variant human.
Guess this is a Baldurs Gate 3 only thing. Im thinking a Thief / Moon Druid for that extra BA so you can wildshape twice. I always end up using my druid like a rogue anyway, detecting traps, picking locks etc. Maybe silly I dunno.
One multiclass that I loved to put up against my players on a oneshot and would love to test as a player is a Loxodon Battle Smith Artificer (3) & War Magic Wizard (17). Str 8, Dex 10, Con 17(+2), Wis 14(+1), Int 15 Cha 14 starting off as Artificer till lvl 3. War Caster feat on lvl 7 and past that just ASI. You can give yourself a +1 shield and +1 weapon that uses your Int. Cha and Dex can be swaped if you prefer, but I like to just soak up all the damages purely based on HP. This boyo gets 70+ hp and 20+ AC by level 10 while being mainly a Wizard. You only ever need 2 stats, Con and Int. Keep your steel defender beside you and make sure that he uses his reaction to make the biggest hitter nearby to have disadvantage on hitting you. If on a higher stats table or if you can for sure raise the stats without the ASI, Fey touched on 11. Choose bless as the spell from Fey Touched and you have advantage on keeping concentration with a +7 minimum. Other good options for feats: Mobile, Sentinel, Mage Slayer and Tough The combo can also be made with Bladesinging, getting the Enhanced Arcane Focus instead of the +1 shield Infusion. Not as tanky, but can dish out way more pain.
My opinion: you can multiclass out of armorer artificer into LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE and still be decent to amazing, since you can wear plate while not needing 15 str and you don't need such a high dex due to infusions. Also, this allows you to focus on int, con, and whatever stat your multiclass needs, and if you choose abjuration wizard, you have a spellcasting juggernaut with an arcane ward and only needing to invest in int and con and then dex with left over asi
The only issue I see with your criteria is it doesn't allow for the scenario where you start something for some feature and immediately multi-class out. Like taking hexblade for paladin lv 1, or getting better saves/proficiencies/etc by taking a 'lv 1, 1-2 lv dip'. I would like it if you don't 'force' you to start level 1 in the 'main' class, and just have it be based on how many levels of the muticlass you take.
There is pretty much no character that doesn't benefit from a 1 level dip in Forge Cleric. Turn a weapon or armor into +1, free proficiency in Heavy Armor, and access to spells like Bless, Shield of Faith, and Searing Smite? Absolutely amazing for every martial class and still great for most magic classes too.
These are just initial thoughts, the question marked options are mostly cuz I rarely play anything beyond Sorcerer or just don't know what might go good with the others. I picked based on what stat synergies would go well together. Artificer- Fighter, Wizard, Barbarian? Barbarian- Fighter, Paladin?, Monk? Bard- Warlock, Sorcerer, Fighter Cleric- Monk, Fighter, Paladin? Druid- Ranger, Rogue, Fighter? Fighter- Paladin, Barbarian, Rogue Monk- Ranger, Rogue, Druid? Paladin- Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock Ranger- Monk, Druid, Rogue Rogue- Fighter, Ranger, Bard Sorcerer- Warlock, Bard, Paladin Warlock- Bard, Sorcerer, Paladin Wizard- Artificer, Fighter, Rogue?
2 levels of paladin then maining to stone sorcerer is insane with their nova damage. Blinding smite + booming blade + divine smite feat at lv 7 is insane damage. 3d8+1d8+4d8+weapon attack = 50+ damage at lv7, possibly 60+ if booming blade effect triggers. The best part is that even if you miss, you still have the weapon charged with the smite spell and divine smite not costing anything, and booming blade completely free to use next turn. You can even use wrathful smite with booming blade to make units willingly run away and trigger the booming effect for good damage while also not spending your heavy hitter spell slots yet 😁
I think the strength of most multiclass combos is much more dependent on which sub-classes you combine than on which base classes you combine.
Exactly. You don't dip into warlock as a bard, you dip into hexblade as a swords or valor bard.
@@studentofsmith You dip into Hexblade primarily for medium armor, shields, and the Shield spell, which means it's really good for any Bard, not just gish Bards. Subclass themes don't have to match thematically to be a good mechanical multiclass option. In fact, I would say the Valor Bard/Hexblade multiclass is actually kind of bad because it introduces redundancy with medium armor given by both sucblasses. Valor Bard is not a gish no matter how much the book pretends it is, it's about giving you medium armor and shield proficiency, so you're much better off going Sorcerer for the Shield spell, or Undead Warlock if you really want to dip Warlock (or you can do both Sorc and Warlock if you're starting at higher levels). Plus, the Undead Warlock dip is really really good as well regardless of Bard subclass: at-will frighten effect with Repelling Blast is very strong for control.
@@eshansingh1 you absolutely do not dip into hexblade for some proficiencies and spells LMAO it’s so you can use charisma as a primary stat for martial weapons and reduce how MAD a character is… that’s it
@@bobswag710 thats just wrong. Hexblade is an optimal multiclass for most bards
@@studentofsmith I dip warlock as an eloquence bard to get the invocation to cast disguise self at will while also getting EB and hex. Gives me roleplay benefits and some damage output.
If you are rating multiclass options there is one thing you absolutely must do : get in touch with Colby from D4. You are already friends with him so it should be easy. His input will be invaluable to your list, few channels dig deeper into multi-classing than Colby's, and his spreadsheets should be a great boon to your ranking criteria.
Would love to see multiple crossover videos for this.
I'm still very pleased that these guys, Colby from d4, and treantmonk collaborated.
They are my favorite in the community!
I would also love to see this!
@@kinjunranger140 So do I, but Colby can provide more information for them. More information is almost always better than less.
I was going to recommend getting in touch with D4 as well! Incredible channel that really has such a creative take on character exploration while also really highlighting strengths that are often overlooked
Great video, dudes! I would definitely recommend keeping in mind the longevity of the average *realistic* campaign, especially as it relates to those B- and C-tier multiclasses. With those tiers, as you said, it makes a big difference when you take your second-class levels, so we want the build to stay relevant rather than waiting for a level that may never come.
Kelly gets an S-tier for their multi-classing of jackets!
*in the distance*
HE'S SO GOD DAMN COOL!!!!
I was gonna say! Which class gives you the drip!??
@@christopherhall6408 bard
@@christopherhall6408 Barbarian or Monk. Can focus all your effort on the drip with 0 regard for protection
Their? His*
I think "time and resources required for the combo to come online" and "average power in the interim of that event" should factor in.
That was part of the criteria they gave.
I forsee Fighter, Sorcerer and Warlock getting a lot of S tier.
No cleric?
That's hilarious because my fighter/warlock/sorcerer multiclass just died... I give it an A though.
I think fighter will pair well with the most other classes as a base class, I think cleric will have the most good pairings as a 1-3 lvl dip.
I can see that they give you a lot of options but a little down I see Cleric, Rogue and maybe Bard. Best multiclasses give you more options that are useful in ways that the core class can benifit from or can be utilized more broadly.
Action surge+double maxed call lightning on a fighter dipped tempest cleric for a flat 60 damage at level 7 (70+ damage if you casted spiritual weapon beforehand for an extra bonus action attack) is insane and a fun boss finisher combo 😂
Wow I have a feeling this is going to be a massive endeavor there's just so many combinations. I eagerly look forward to it
it's only 156 combos
unless including subclasses which brings out 11434 (barring 3 kinda useless subclasses that no one uses)
@@captainpolar2343 Yeah I was thinking of the subclasses
Yay! A whole series to prove that Four elements monk / PHB Beast Master ranger is the S-Tier combo.
I'm gonna need you to elaborate, dear. How does it work?
Please, elaborate
@@_fedmar_ Same stats are used, Wisdom and Dex, 4 element monk lets you use magic at a range while the beast companion distracts from up close, and if the enemy manages to approach you can ditch your bow and the disadvantage you would otherwise get to hit them up close with your fists or a touch range magic attack. Though the main draw is Ranger+monk in general rather than those 2 subclasses specifically.
Please don't elaborate, and make everyone theory craft until they make the strongest 4-Elements Monk/PHB Beast Master Ranger they can.
@@theinsanegamer1024 …
I have no idea if you are serious, but putting it out there: I am not. This is my Z-tier combo. I would rather play a commoner.
As someone who's currently playing a Soulknife Rogue/Bard multiclass and has really been having a hard time making a decision on how to balance the levels, I really appreciate that you're doing this series!
I love your content, and can't wait to see your thoughts.
Even though it’s slightly MAD, a single level dip into (Peace Domain) Cleric helped my Wizard a ton. Getting access to medium armor, shields, and healing (especially at range on a Bonus Action) was a godsend.
I took 1 fighter into wizard into tempest cleric, and dear god is it fun to play but holy shit does it hurt my brain
Omg I was just thinking "I want to see a Dungeon Dudes Multiclass tier list video" like literally 3 hours ago. Looking forward to them.
great idea for a series of videos! for me, the most difficult part is to know when to jump from one class to another, especially if the campaign will be limited in its total level
I think what is crucial is to divide “generic” subclasses of the class and a few specific subclasses.
Then if you give a ranking you could give warlock (generic) and warlock (hexblade), bard (generic) and bard (swords). I think this would enable you to parse out the details more and identify clearly the value of multiclassing two classes versus multiclassing due to a specific subclass being a really strong multiclass
Also moon druid. The subclass the requires precisely zero stats to be above 13 to be viable.
Yeah. Specific sort of nonstandard subclasses work so well with multiclassing but others, not so much.
Also curious how the subclasses are going to weigh in, certain ones like the gloom stalker and hex blade are practically built for multi-classing.
You may wish to reconsider the 'the class will be both the first class taken and the one in which we take the majority of levels' criterion for certain classes.
Gaining proficiency in Constitution saving throws by taking first level in Fighter followed by a second level in Fighter at some point for action surge is really potent for many builds.
And for Wizards, first level in Artificer for Constitution saving throw proficiency doesn't even cost you spell slot progression (although you are sacrificing Wisdom saving throws and slowing the level at which you can learn the actual spells).
I think a criteria for this that might put them in the B or C tier that you did not mention was two classes that load a whole bunch of class abilities into one 'box' on the character sheet. For example, I had an idea for a Rogue/Bard multi-class, and the challenge became the number of things that the character could do on their Bonus action.
Yeah, bonus action economy becomes problematic with lots of multiclass builds. The more obvious one is when you get classes that synergize well, but then get certain dead levels because features don't stack (like extra attack).
I think a lot of tier lists tend to think about power ceilings, which is great. But *competent* versatility and reliability are also important.
Sounds great! Can't wait for the first episode
There may also need to be sort of distinction between a class that makes for a good multi-classing opportunity vs one specific subclass that is really useful.
The obvious example being Warlock, where picking up 1-3 levels in Hexblade can have AMAZING synergy with other Charisma based classes (and is generally gonna be S tier), whereas all the others don’t give you nearly as much bang for your buck.
Clerics fall into a similar vein, where what you’re really picking up are the domain perks. And there’s so many, there’s probably at least ONE domain that could pull off a B tier (possibly high C tier) for any given multiclass.
I’m not sure how that might work out in the rankings, because that can be some HEFTY swing in viability for multiclassing between the class overall vs a specific subclass. Maybe rank the class overall, with a quick mention for specific subclasses that really stand out above the rest? I just worry that’s gonna end up kinda repetitive, with a lot of classes bring B or C tier generally, except for some of their best subclasses that are A or S.
Ooof I could see this being an extremely long series because there is so much nuance. I also wonder how they’ll factor in subclass-specific multiclassing. For example, an arcane trickster/wizard is an S tier imo, but a swashbuckler/wizard would be a B tier for me. I guess by the tier list criteria rogue/wizard is B tier because it’s build dependent.
Love it. Really looking forward to this series.
I would suggest one of the criteria for A or B tier is the necessity of taking specific subclasses. For instance a paladin hexblade is amazing but a paladin, great old one may not be as powerful.
I can see a lot of these multiclassing builds that are MAD be lower on the rankings scale, with a few exceptions here and there, but those would be very niche.
I try to limit my multiclassing to 2 classes, or if I do more than that, they are a specialized character that takes advantage of very similar ability scores. It can take a bit of research and nuances, but some builds can be REALLY epic.
After this series, a tier ranking of the different monster types would be great (aberrations, dragons, undead, etc). Something for the DMs too and not just the players. 🙂
What about a specific sub class? Like, Hexblade is an obvious example. Base Warlock doesn't add a lot. Hexblade is the game changer.
I have an issue with the criteria
Mainly, some combos are stronger for starting in one class, but don't make that class the primary
For example, I think most paladin multiclasses are better of starting paladin for the heavy armor proficiency, but end up stronger with more full caster levels for more smiting.
The same could be said of a fighter/wizard who took 2 levels of fighter for heavy armor and action surge, then 18 levels in wizard for all the spellcasting.
Great idea; can’t wait to watch.
Is there some way that you can capture the difference between different dips into the same class? For example, a one level dip into Hexblade Warlock vs. a three level dip into Genie?
I am a bit concerned that the C and D tier is gonna be a bit overcrowded.
i think each video is gonna be 1 class
Still, that's like ~12 items in each tier list, and I think it's mostly gonna be C's and D's.
@@alkatron768 eh, you'd be surprised :]
I understand and respect that you want to emphasize performance in your rankings.
Historically, what I´ve personally valued most is playing characters with large or unique toolboxes, that reward me being creative. In my experience, high player creativity often beats high character performance (given the GM knows what she´s doing).
I think fun and style should be considered as well, so I suggest you give a little prize at the end - to the builds you feel are the most fun and stylish, regardless of their performance ranking.
This sounds like it could be a really in-depth series. I can't wait!!!
I did a character based on cantrips, and multi classed in all the spell caster classes. And only took cantrips.
We played an adventure that I received a crown that allows you to double cast cantrips.
I was in a large group, so I was just a carry but was fun to play it. I was a Kender too. So I was a wizard that was never taken seriously.
So many variables i don't envy you. Not just when to dip, or how far to dive in but also which subclasses, particularly with options like hexblade that utterly change the way the class functions.
Bard(Any)/Hexblade will always be my favorite multiclass.
As a big fan of multiclassing in general, I’m very much looking forward to this, though I would like to point out that, while considering ability scores is important, having mismatched primary ability scores doesn’t mean a multiclass combo will be bad, a good example is a wizard with a 1/2 level dip into cleric, it’s often seen as one of the best support builds despite it’s non-synergistic primary ability scores
You have to mention the potency of the synergy, because a perfect synergy can be "nice" like warlock spells and getting sorcery points that only works if you start pressuring the rules, but it might also have the kind of synergy as polearm master+sentinel.
I would call it "having a true combo" in that case. Having one of those "true combo's" that enhance eachother to such an insane degree should instantly qualify for a tier higher then all the other features allow. I mentioned sorcery points as a nice to have, but the same warlock/sorcerer combination also has one of those 'true combo's, having quickened spell metamagic so that you can combine slinging high tier spells with eldritch blasts for tonnes of control and damage on top of the spells.
Weird combo that works really well is Shadow Monk/Hexblade Warlock-I think partially because the Kii Points help mitigate some of the spell casting (almost the same way a sorlock).
There is also Paladin/Barbarian builds that compliment eachother-but do have drawbacks (rage dispelling a paladin’s spell and can’t wear heavy armor).
Sorcadins are generally my go-to characters. I just enjoy the versatility it brings, alllowing you damage foes in various ways (spells, melee combat or smite). My Divine Soul Sorcadin is probably my favorite main all time. (Using the homebrew expanded spell list rules of the Dungeon Dudes, of which I chose Twilight domain)
I know you probably got plenty of this content in the pipeline, but I'd love guests to come on and talk about some of their favorite multi-classes. Maybe Tulok Barbrarian, XP to lvl 3, runesmith and others. Always good to band together against such perilous odds :)
Personally my Criteria for Multi classing is based on the following:
1.) Is multi-classing this way better than continuing the same class level progression?
2.) How many levels do you need to get this off the ground?
3.) What opportunity cost is incurred.
4.) How do ability scores line up
5.) Long term value from the Multiclass.
6.) Does the second class overshadow your primary class?
7.) Do the classes mix flavor wise?
My favourite multiclass would be a Steel Dancer.
Take 3 levels in Artificer (Battlesmith), grab the sweet stuff there, then multiclass into Bladesinger.
Intelligence for attack and damage rolls is awesome, infusions are providing your basic magic items, a homunculus, steel defender and a familiar are your life insurance while absolutely shred everything in your way. This also comes with a longsword instead of a rapier for flavour.
And you're going to be highly proficient in some vital skills as a nice surplus.
The "downside" is getting some high tier spells somewhat later.
There's a few multiclass combos that I want to note in addition to filling out the form. The first is the most powerful and variable IMHO: The High Elf Champion Fighter 3/Phantom Rogue 17 or the Shadar-Kai Champion Fighter 6/Phantom Rogue 14 (Both with Elven Accuracy). The difference is whether you want the extra feat and extra attack, or the extra damage from the Phantom Rogue 17.
The other two are the Drunk (Druid/Monk) so the AC boosts and the attributes are both primaries, and the Artificer 1/Wizard 19. Artificer is the best start for Wizard unless it's a Bladesinger, wherein Rogue is the best first-level dip.
A combo I'm playing with currently is an Alchemist Artificer with a two level dip in Genie Warlock. Technically it's a B-Tier multiclass, because it benefits from both Int and Cha, but taking the right Warlock spell choices can minimize this, and the benefit of using short-rest Warlock spell slots to create Elixirs is pretty huge.
It's enough to elevate the Alchemist from being really bad to high B-tier. In my own opinion.
For me, even though I think it's a B-Tier multiclass, I always love the Eldritch Knight/Wizard combo it's got so much versatility regardless of wizard subclass and you get all the great stuff from fighter even if you stop just at 5 levels(though you should go to 7 minimum for that bonus action attack).
Eldritch Knight/Bladesinger is pretty solid.
I know my tortle druid of the stars/artificer alchemist character is not a good multiclass. But boy has it been fun to RP and has it's cool moments in combat.
I can't wait. My sorcerer chose to dip into knowledge domain clerics.
It's not super optimal but he has proficiency in knowledge skills and expertise in 2 of them.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts on a rogue/sorcerer multiclass. It's probably going to be around B tier, but I love the idea of slinking around, firing spells from the shadows.
That’s sounds a lot like the next character I am hoping to play. An aberrant mind sorcerer because they can cast all of their psionic spells without verbal components. Though I was wondering if picking up skill expert to get expertise on stealth would be better than multiclassing as sneak attack doesn’t work with spells.
I did a storm sorcerer and Swashbuckler multiclass. Even splits 5/5. It was my pirate character. It was a lot of fun; but wasn't very sustainable after lvl 10. I focused on using shadow blade.
Arcane trickster works well for this. Actually, you can do this really well with a pure Druid. They can be Dex focused and get stealth from background. Plus wildshape creates a ton of options. And, as a full caster they definitely have spell slinging covered.
Probably B-C, you really only benefit from 1 level dip into sorcerer. Beyond that you are neither as good as a straight rogue, not as good as a straight sorcerer. And this is still only if you don't go Arcane Trickster for your rogue subclass. I'm sure it is super fun, but not particularly powerful.
For that particular fantasy you'd typically just go straight Shadow Sorcerer. Or if it was a one-shot starting at high level, then 6 Shadow Monk + X Divine Soul Sorcerer could be fun - BA teleport then hit enemies with Inflict Wounds at Adv.
Very interested in this one ! I've been spending countless of hours trying to find multiclassing combos for strong, cool, fun and/or thematic characters ..
One important part of multiclassing that shouldn't be overlooked is that you don't always start lv1 with your 'main' class. Your 1st level dictates your starting proficiencies which can be very important for heavy armour and saving throws.
Most spellcasters who multiclass at all into fighter, artificer, or sorcerer are often better off taking it at lv1 to get the CON saving throw proficiency. In the video you repeatedly mentioned 'starting class' so it's just important that the starting class isn't always the main class
You dudes absolutely MUST have seperate videos for the battle Smith artificer and hexblade warlock. Giving the opportunity for a single attribute attack stat and casting stat is insanely beneficial for multi-classing that can't be hand waved in amongst other subclasses and possibilities.
I'm a big fan of Ranked Choice Voting for something like this! It will really help to see when two options are actually very close.
Ranked choice doesn't do that. Voting normally would do that
@@seekingfurtherlight34 Ranked choice is better for something like this. If everyone only gets to vote once and 80% chose option A, and 15% chose option B (with the last 5% sprinkled about on options C/D/E/F) it is hard to tell how close options A and B are to each other. With ranked choice voting if the 80% pick A for #1 spot and B for #2 spot, while the 15% pick B for #1 and A for #2 (and the C/D/E/F options still get very little in the top tier spots) then it is much easier to see that option A and B are both very well liked (almost a tie), rather than option A being a clear winner.
Hexblade/paladin > everything else
In terms of combat prowess, undoubtedly. In other elements of the game, such as exploration and social interactions, not so much.
I think you should define base class as 'the class you take more levels in', not '1st level taken'. again reference cleric 1 wizard 19 builds.
When looking at the overall viability of multi classing, I think you need to look at both what you gain in the 1st 3 levels, and what you lose at the top end. Since most campaigns only go to level 10 or 11, I think seeing what is lost at levels 8, 9, 10, 11 is worthwhile to include in any ranking. Most times I see an argument made for losing a capstone feature and it's not a big deal.. But if you were never going to make it 20 levels, then that's not really the opportunity cost.
Overall, ranking multi classing is tough, and I look forward to your future ranking videos.
I feel like there’s real potential in the Oathbreaker Paladin/ Fiend Warlock combo
@cak01vej while this is true the Hexblade at this point is the Fireball of subclasses; in that it’s so good and commonly brought up that I actively want to avoid it.
I would argue that the premise of this is slightly flawed. There are many multiclassing options that start in what becomes the dip class.
My favorite sorlock is 10th genie warlock then getting at least 7th of any sorcerer. You can chain tons of short rests (if you have a short long rest) to get a ridiculous number of spell slots!
One of my favorite Multi-classes I have discovered lately is a Circle of the Moon Druid taking levels in Monk. Either 1 level just for the unarmored defense, 2 levels for Ki points and faster movement, or go all the way to level 5 for multi-attack. Getting those benefits in animal form are hilarious "Why yes, my Giant Elk form does have an AC of 17 and can hip check after its normal attack" (hip check would be an "unarmed attack" for martial arts bonus action attack)
In a similar vein, Moon Druid + Bear totem barbarian also has some silly results. Picking one of the high-HP animals and then raging makes you have ludicrous HP
I have this dilemma. Wildshape ac is terrible, but I really think the level 20 capstone druid ability is so good that you would regret not ever having a chance to get to. It all depends if the character is a on indefinite campaign or will definitely end at a set level
@@SmokeSolo1975 yeah, but how many campaigns actually make it to LV 20?
@@whiteraven562 Moon+Bear Barbarian really isn't very good. Sure you have lots of HP but that is all you have going for you. Your damage sucks, your casting sucks, your MAD as hell... Druid-Monk is much better but still only C tier IMO, because your WS AC never gets that high (e.g. Allosaurus with a +4 Wis druid-monk has AC 15 instead of AC 13, Bristled Moorbounder has no change in AC, Brownbear has AC 14 instead of 11), and you have a sever trade off between getting more ki points from Monk or upgrading you WS forms from Druid. A 1 level monk dip is ok, but more than that and you really aren't getting enough to be worth the sacrifice.
The best MC if you want to maximize WS for Moon Druid is 2 levels of Paladin, but even then don't bother until you're at least level 6 druid.
@@agilemind6241 Yeah, Moon Druid + Barbarian is more of a "the flavor of this is fun" combo than a "mechanically this is amazing" combo. because turning into a Moose (Giant Elk stats) and then raging is hilarious
I like dipping a level in Cleric for classes without any armor proficiencies (wizard, Sorcerer) to boost up their AC. If a wizard in plate mail doesn’t scare you, I don’t know what will.
S- primary spellcaster + cleric for heavy armor prof.
A- sorlock, soradin, wizard +2 fighter, palock
B- Bardbarian, ranger/rogue
There are a LOT of options available. Just factoring in the number of class combinations, there are 156, but each of those comes with its own permutations.
One potential issue I see with your stated criteria is when you START with a 1-level dip in a different class, but the majority of your levels are in the second class. Starting with a level of Artificer or Fighter is really good for a wizard (CON save proficiency and armor proficiencies); will you talk about that under the Wizard or under the Fighter/Artificer? Wizard is absolutely the primary class of that build, but it's not the first class.
Note that some spell lists are more forgiveable towards a low spellcasting ability. Bards depend on their DC, while Clerics can often function pretty well with a lower Wis.
My current favorite multiclass build is my paladin bard
Vigo Bloodfist
Background: gladiator
Paladin skills I took: insite, persuasion.
He's a half orc so I get intimidation.
Taking paladin to level 6
When i multiclass into bard in gonna take deception as the 1 skill to take. Taking insite and deception as my expertise skills. I'm going whispers bard to try to tie into the conquest paladin. Level 12 is a long way to wait to be fully online but when stealth is poop for paladins why not just become someone who's suppose to be there (level 6 whisper bard ability) getting a bonus to a skill I have expertise in (deception)... sure I won't have spells for my level 4 or 5 slot but those are for upcasting and smite slots.
Level 6 paladin everything else bard
It very much depends on the subclasses and the build you are playing, so these should be reflected in the survey. E.g., I'm currently playing a Divine Soul Sorcerer with a one level Order Cleric dip - and absolut blast to play. Once you dipped in level 2, you basically trigger Voice of Authority with Bless or later Haste in the first combat round, and then cast twinned Healing Word + an attack cantrip in subsequent rounds, triggering VoA every round. This would work with any support sorcerer build, but not with any other type of sorcerer build. And it only works with the Order Cleric, while other Cleric domains would create different synergies, and might work out as well.
I'd suggest to add another survey that lets viewers suggest combinations of subclasses (including the option 'any') and build type. That would create a picture of combinations where nearly all subclasses work together well, and others, where hardly any combinations work. Or where certain types of build work well.
Just make sure you assign one multiclass to each tier before really starting, so each multiclass you discuss has clear examples to compare to instead of core examples for each tier forming over time when it's harder to move things around, it also makes the criteria for each tier a lot more concrete.
I wish you guys the best of luck with this ranking! a tough one but super interested to hear your thoughts
i am so excited for this series
I also think there's. A HUGE difference between theory craft ranking a combo and having actually tried playing it in a real game. Sometimes a "good" combo is in achievable in a real game and a less than optimal build actually makes for a great character
One of my Favorite Multiclasses is start Artificer for 3 and take the Armorer and then go Wizard the rest of the way, I prefer either Bladesinger or Scribes but really any wizard gains so much. You still get 9th lv spells and slots, Con saves, Heavy armor proficiency, infusions like the Mind Sharpener and +1 arcane focus. Chefs kiss 💋
My favorite Multiclass of all time is rogue and 2-3 levels of barbarian.
This relies on a special way of wording in sneak attack that requires you to use a finesse weapon.
Use a rapier, but attack with strength. This allows you to combine sneak Attack and reckless Attack to guarantie a sneak Attack.
There are other complimentations here. Rogues struggle with armor class and low health. The barbarians unarmored defense and rage features help here a lot.
Barbarians need to go to the front line fast. Rogues can dash as a bonus action, and disengage if you wanna/need to play defensive.
The drawback: this is semi-MAD.
You need dexterity for AC and sneaking, strength for attacking, constitution for health and AC as well. You need to manage all this.
And the mental stats for your rogue skills.
I love this character, as it reminds me of slasher Horror.
A strong and athletic warrior that sneaks upon his opponements and strikes with fatal results. As the victims allies stand there, frozen in place by shock, the other Party members storm in and Initiative is being rolled.
Before watching, I'd like to say my favorite high level build is combing monk with barbarian.
Way of kensei + any barbarian subclass
The synergy works best if you have potions of strength so you can increase your dex and rely on str when needed.
At the DMs discretion you may use 3 stats to increase your unarmored defense.
Since some monk weapons use strength and you have the option to just use str instead of dex you'll gain the +2 or more while raging.
2lvl Graviturgy Mage -> Shield Master Fighter
Adjust Density+Shove lets you toss your opponent back into difficult terrain, into a mob of other attackers, off a ledge etc. It also lets you use help infiltration via climbing or the occasional need for increased density - Adjust Density is NOT an attack, it doesn't require a save and you can bring any "Large or smaller" flying creature down to ground lvl or sink most swimmers.
Fighter seems to be the favorite addition at my table atm.
Most effective multiclass at my table I have seen was Cleric/Sorcerer dip where they nat 20 on a Level 4 Chromatic Orb and used their Storm cleric channel divinity to maximum damage
The Paladin is the most complicated because, if you want to go full martial, then you would pick either Barbarian or Fighter, but if you want spellcasting, your choices are Bard, Sorcerer, and Warlock.
An abjuration wizard with two levels of Fighter and getting armor of agathys from 1 level of celestial warlock or a feat or background is the best gish in the game.
An echo knight fighter with 2 to 5 levels of war wizard is the best summoner in the game.
Stacking 3 levels of fey wanderer ranger on an eloquence bard is insane.
Stacking 3 levels of swarmkeeper ranger on just about anything is surprisingly good.
Even if you are regularly in campaigns that go to 20, the only level 20 capstone arguably better than action surge is the cleric capstone, and that only breaks even depending on how your DM handles Divine Intervention. (I personally treat Divine Intervention as if it was the summon monster systems from all the Final Fantasy games, but your milage may vary.)
6 beast barbarian with 14 fiend warlock with pact of the blade for the near constant temp hp. Stacking with Tomb of levistus also
strongest multiclass I have at my table is a Way of Shadow Monk 7/ Gloomstalker Ranger 3 who's gotten his hands on Eyes of the Eagle, Headband of Intellect, and Gloves of Thievery. And Observant. And expertise in stealth and investigation. 22 passive perception and 27 passive investigate. He's an absolute nightmare
Not as an overall recommendation, but the multiclass combo I'm personally most proud of was for a thrown weapon spec goblin fighter, dipping 2 levels into artificer for infusions. This particular fighter is a Rune Knight, and the combo helps make good use of bonus actions, which fighters aren't usually very good at. And while his Intelligence is low for a main artificer, his spell selection for artificer is defensive reaction based for things like absorb elements, feather fall, and mending. The Returning infusion makes this build sustainable long-term, and the goblin ability means he can actually weave in and out of melee easily. Otherwise, between absorb elements and hill rune, he takes half damage from almost everything, has a 21 AC, and really well-rounded skill type abilities between runes and artificer levels, with 83 hit points at level 9.
Only being able to choose three for some of these was murder, there's so many things you could go into that'd be useful for some of these!
Esp when it comes to subclass consideration, ik we're going general and u guess will go nuance but like hexblade as subclass not class do make things more complicated in weighing options. I also know I've thrown in some interesting curveballs 'cause of weird subclass combos that are amazing on classes that you wouldn't think work well together.
One thing I never seem to see brought up is what if feats are not used. How would some classes rank without great weapon master or other feats. Multi classing vs. Staying with the class and getting a feat or two extra can be better for some classes.
Possibly a C tier or D tier given your ratings but one of the most enjoyable characters I've created. Cleric/Wizard. Specifically, Standard Array stats Warforged Forge Cleric 6, War Wizard 14. It is low tier as you need/want to have Str 15 to wear heavy armour as well as split stats Int/Wis. Full caster gets to L9 slots, Multiclass gives access to more cantrips offsetting negative of War Wizard deflection ability. Spell choice is key to what you want to achieve, but both have ways to regain spell slots making the character better for longer throughout the day. High AC, very versatile and contributing significantly to my L8 party which includes a gloomstalker, a twilight cleric, a lore bard and pal/druid smite bear.
3 Archfey warlock pact of the tome the rest in glamour bard. Is my favorite multiclass
Well I haven't been able to play enough to know about the viability of builds. But I know enough that Sorcerer, Paladin, Warlock, and particularly Bard are going to be some top tier ones. The shared spellcasting stat combined with awesome perks from the base classes alone will be worth it and that's before subclassing. Like honestly just from my cursory knowledge Paladin/Hexblade Warlock and being able to use charisma for weapon attacks. That's gotta be S tier for the sheer fact you can focus on one stat not two.
You may have said this, but how will species/ancestry affect your rating? Synergy with feats such as custom lineage or variant human?
@dungeon dudes: at 0:50 and again at 11:50 Kelly states that you're looking at STARTING in base X class for your evaluation. However, at 12:23 Monty contradicts that and states that the base X class will be the class you have the most levels in. The form chooses BOTH answers ("which would be the class a character begins with at 1st level, and where the characters takes the majority of their character levels") clearing up nothing at all. Nearly every multi-class I've seen is 1-6 front-loaded levels followed by X other class, which will by definition fail to meet both criteria, please pick a lane?
Sorlock S Tier. I've played one (Of course, I played it as fair as I can without abusing infinite spell slots) but it still feels VERY potent. And all you need is a 2 level dip into Hexblade. Plus points if you go with a Clockwork Sorcerer.
I didn't answer the survey because your system assumes that the first class you pick is going to be the one you invest most levels into. Most of my multiclassing so far has involved taking one or two levels of one class and then taking all my other levels in another class afterwards. If I like playing an Artificer1-WizardX, am I supposed to say that a good multiclass option for the Artificer is Wizard, or am I supposed to say that a good multiclass option for Wizard is Artificer?
I've been playing a Cleric1-DruidX for a couple years (allows me to prepare more spells), alongside a friend who is Artificer1-WizardX (for CON saves, armor, Cure Wounds and more). I also want to try a Sorcerer1-BardX at some point (for CON saves and cantrips).
A lot of discussion in the comments about mechanical impacts of multiclassing. I agree with a lot of these but want to raise the other angle: Does the multiclass work narratively?
for example as strong as a sorcerer warlock multiclass is mechanically, the narrative can often be confusing. Did your magic come from a pact with a powerful being or from a quirk of your birth. If it was from birth why did you make a pact? how do the sources of magic work together? There are some challenging narrative decisions to be made. I am not saying it is impossible or never works well, but it requires a bit of thinking to make work. For example perhaps the pact was made to help you control your natural wild source of magic.
Other multiclasses that can be challenging narratively/characterisation are:
Cleric/Warlock(non celestial) - Do you serve a god or your pact?
Paladin/Rogue - are you lawful or chaotic?
Barbarian/Rogue - are you sneaky or all-out-aggressive? (does getting sneak attack through attacking recklessly make sense?)
Wizard/Sorcerer - Do you gain magic through study or through your heritage?
Druid/Artificer - Do you serve nature or pursue industry.
Again, I am not saying these cannot work narratively, just that they can be challenging to narratively weave together.
Not sure if this deserves a place in the ranking for this video series but it is an interesting related topic.
Ironically just built a Psi Warrior fighter (subclass is in Tasha’s). Then dipping into Artificer (just 2 levels). I see it as a A rank
If you’re curious, race is variant human.
Guess this is a Baldurs Gate 3 only thing.
Im thinking a Thief / Moon Druid for that extra BA so you can wildshape twice. I always end up using my druid like a rogue anyway, detecting traps, picking locks etc. Maybe silly I dunno.
One multiclass that I loved to put up against my players on a oneshot and would love to test as a player is a Loxodon Battle Smith Artificer (3) & War Magic Wizard (17).
Str 8, Dex 10, Con 17(+2), Wis 14(+1), Int 15 Cha 14 starting off as Artificer till lvl 3. War Caster feat on lvl 7 and past that just ASI. You can give yourself a +1 shield and +1 weapon that uses your Int. Cha and Dex can be swaped if you prefer, but I like to just soak up all the damages purely based on HP. This boyo gets 70+ hp and 20+ AC by level 10 while being mainly a Wizard. You only ever need 2 stats, Con and Int. Keep your steel defender beside you and make sure that he uses his reaction to make the biggest hitter nearby to have disadvantage on hitting you.
If on a higher stats table or if you can for sure raise the stats without the ASI, Fey touched on 11. Choose bless as the spell from Fey Touched and you have advantage on keeping concentration with a +7 minimum. Other good options for feats: Mobile, Sentinel, Mage Slayer and Tough
The combo can also be made with Bladesinging, getting the Enhanced Arcane Focus instead of the +1 shield Infusion. Not as tanky, but can dish out way more pain.
Looking forward to seeing where you put Fighter/Warlock.
Nova V'ger. Hexblade Warlock and Echo Knight Fighter.
@@LadyAhro Celestial Warlock/Battlemaster is my go-to.
I have a 3 Eloquence/8 Genie Bardlock. My lowest persuasion and deception checks are 22.
My opinion: you can multiclass out of armorer artificer into LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE and still be decent to amazing, since you can wear plate while not needing 15 str and you don't need such a high dex due to infusions. Also, this allows you to focus on int, con, and whatever stat your multiclass needs, and if you choose abjuration wizard, you have a spellcasting juggernaut with an arcane ward and only needing to invest in int and con and then dex with left over asi
I don't know if my idea is any good but I'm looking forward to having my battlemaster fighter multiclassed to bard
The only issue I see with your criteria is it doesn't allow for the scenario where you start something for some feature and immediately multi-class out. Like taking hexblade for paladin lv 1, or getting better saves/proficiencies/etc by taking a 'lv 1, 1-2 lv dip'. I would like it if you don't 'force' you to start level 1 in the 'main' class, and just have it be based on how many levels of the muticlass you take.
I'm really curious about the ranking for Palassassin. Because it sounds good in theory...
There is pretty much no character that doesn't benefit from a 1 level dip in Forge Cleric. Turn a weapon or armor into +1, free proficiency in Heavy Armor, and access to spells like Bless, Shield of Faith, and Searing Smite? Absolutely amazing for every martial class and still great for most magic classes too.
These are just initial thoughts, the question marked options are mostly cuz I rarely play anything beyond Sorcerer or just don't know what might go good with the others. I picked based on what stat synergies would go well together.
Artificer- Fighter, Wizard, Barbarian?
Barbarian- Fighter, Paladin?, Monk?
Bard- Warlock, Sorcerer, Fighter
Cleric- Monk, Fighter, Paladin?
Druid- Ranger, Rogue, Fighter?
Fighter- Paladin, Barbarian, Rogue
Monk- Ranger, Rogue, Druid?
Paladin- Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock
Ranger- Monk, Druid, Rogue
Rogue- Fighter, Ranger, Bard
Sorcerer- Warlock, Bard, Paladin
Warlock- Bard, Sorcerer, Paladin
Wizard- Artificer, Fighter, Rogue?
2 levels of paladin then maining to stone sorcerer is insane with their nova damage. Blinding smite + booming blade + divine smite feat at lv 7 is insane damage.
3d8+1d8+4d8+weapon attack = 50+ damage at lv7, possibly 60+ if booming blade effect triggers. The best part is that even if you miss, you still have the weapon charged with the smite spell and divine smite not costing anything, and booming blade completely free to use next turn. You can even use wrathful smite with booming blade to make units willingly run away and trigger the booming effect for good damage while also not spending your heavy hitter spell slots yet 😁