Mixing Front Of House: Mixing at Zero
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
- Mixing at Zero: Jon shares some great advice about keeping your faders at zero when mixing live. Around the zero mark is the area where you have most control on the fader, and keeping them all at the same level (adjusting the gain to be able to do this) also means you know where the faders ought to be in the event of something being knocked accidentally. He also describes micing on VCAs and subgroups.
Great information for all live sound engineers.
• Life on the Road - Roc...
• Video
• Trust Your Ears & Be S...
www.soulsound....
www.soulsound....
• Mixing Front Of House:...
www.soulsound.co.uk
Exactly the perfect point to start mixing, zero. We must ensure however that our amplifiers are set to the same zero level for better output sound. This has been my trick for live setups. thanks for sharing.
I have over twenty years mixing house and this guy is EXACTLY right.....and obviously this video is intended for those who already know how to set pre-amp gain stages etc....
Um, this is a common myth. The actual gain structure is to have all inputs at a nominal level which is why cue, solo, or PFL with meters is there. Nobody should mix the lead vocal into the mix at the same level as the backing singers. This is why the faders have travel and visually represent each performers contribution to the mix. If one of the other vocalists takes a solo lead part, just bring them up to the lead position with the fader to unity. There is a reason for the recommended gain structure.
I guess my question would be...if someone sets their gain correctly first, how would all of the Faders be even remotely close to Unity? The voices might be, but everything else would be lower than Unity.
To create ample headroom, wouldn't you want to maximize gain, then when the signal leaves the board, you aren't sacrificing head room, so you don't have to crank your power amps/speakers?
@@hooskerdu1 all of the INPUT faders are unity, but what you're describing happens in the subgroups... There you will see an actual "mix"...hope that helps !
I guess I don't understand this approach. I was taught to maximize gain of all channels with PFL so the Input signal peaks at Zero. Then adjust the faders of each channel to get the desired mix. That never ends up with the Faders all at Zero.
This usually means that the vocals will be close to Unity, with the instruments all set at varying volumes lower than unity. And then the mains will be close to Unity as well. I then run my powered mains at maybe 12 to 1 o'clock at most small to medium sized bar gigs.
This is correct. Get as much distance as possible from the noisefloor with your gain.
I did my last mixing gig with mixing on zero and was very happy with. Very easy, all was sounding well, sometime the mixer a bit higher on the gain for the vocals. Great advice.
We need to understand that consoles are designed with the gain or input amp having the highest and quietest gain amp in the system hence all of the hoopla about mic amps. It's kinda where they spent the most money. With that setting the fader to zero effectively using the channel op amp to ad gain the input amp's functionality and effectiveness is minimized. Also we need to note that the signal traveling through the channel is not line level. This effects inserts in a negative fashion as they are not operating in their optimal signal range either. Does your mix benefit more from cleaner signal or better fader control? That is your call but I always default to signal preservation wherever I can.
This!
I’ve been mixing live like this for years. Thanks for sharing
You're more than welcome!
The idea is that you mix at Zero, basic sound engineering! You set your gain structure, use dynamics, eq and aim for zero, then in a live environment you will be tweaking as needed, pushing or pulling faders!
It should also be mentioned this applies to the master faders, perhaps even more so. It’s a little bit of a dance sometimes, but typically amps are set to a standardized gain, generally full up, and the drive device which is post console, is gained to give the console operator a zero master fader at the desired max volume, drive device being essentially the crossover for the simplest systems and a dedicated piece of matrix electronics for the most complex systems. As speakers have become almost exclusively powered systems, amp settings are becoming a thing of the past. For most users, the consoles built-in matrices are the place to do this ‘reference gaining’.
If you are using proper gain structure throughout the whole sound system this technique should work , But the one thing I do differently is to have the faders around zero but within the range of -5db and +5db.. You can still have your gain set near clip and still mix with your faders around the zero mark.. If the pa and the monitors are too loud with your faders around zero then go back down your amps volume.. That is proper gain structure... amps should be what you set accordingly to the room as well as the system management (crossover). You want the sound of the preamps of the console! The only way is to warm up the pre's and send it through the LR with high signal but not clipping. There is a lot of misconceptions about running your amps wide open... If you run your amps wide open and do not have any limiters or system management before the amps and you suddenly have a loud signal/pop through any of the channels or anywhere in the system your amps will effectively send that signal full blast through your speakers! This can potentially blow your speakers or damage them. Besides most of the time the hiss you get through sound systems is actually the amps being run wide open. I myself at one point in my life ran my systems this way and paid the price. The volume encoder on the amps is not how much power your sending the speaker.. it is always sending the full power rating to the speaker the encoder is simply the signal volume from the board. Pro systems in the touring world often use delayed speakers to the main pa. Delayed speakers are closer to the listener effectively reducing the room noise the listener is hearing. Obviously that delayed speaker will only be turned up to volume where it is comfortable for the section the delayed stack is pointed at. Because the closer you are to the speaker the less loud it has to be. So sending a hot clean signal out of the board will not determine the volume in the room if your using proper gain structure on all your amps and speakers. Mixing around zero is why the boards have that position in the first place just like it is mentioned in the video...You have more fined tuned control of level in that area. That is why that position is there, once your gains are set you shouldn't touch them the rest of the gig if everything is proper, if you need to adjust gains and you are running front of house and monitors make sure to make up for that gain adjustment in all the mixes.. Now granted I do not agree with setting the faders all being perfectly at zero but instead mixing in this area.
Sorry mate, you have alot of errors in your logic. First, the amps should ALWAYS be set to maximum and as close to the stage as possible, Second, the most important part is gain, that is the point zero of mixing, not having faders to zero. This is poor teaching
Generally setting all your gains with your faders at 0 is bad technique. That creates bad gain structure and therefore if you are running any sort of aux mixes, or broadcast mix you will have a very tough time getting your mixes to work the way you want them to. Try starting with all your faders down and set gains using PFL for all your inputs.
Setting optimum gain structure will allow you to create better mixes in the long run, and it will make setting monitor mixes SO much easier, AND your band will like you more :)
Yep, I don't even worry about Fader volume when I start mixing a band. I am only concerned with getting each channel PFLed so the peaks hit zero. Then I set the faders at whatever level creates the best mix. Generally the Voices will be close to Unity and the rest of the instruments will be at various levels lower than the Voices.
That being said, I do wonder if I set my Gains slightly lower I might get less hiss in the mains. I'm a little disappointed in how noisy my Allen & Heath Qu-SB is when mixing live sound. The sound is excellent from this digital rack board, but I would like to reduce the hiss I'm getting. Any recommendations to reduce this hiss? In a previous band we used the Midas MR-18 and that thing was as quiet as a mouse.
This seems highly rational. Thank you for your suggestion.
How do you get all the faders to zero?
When I setup at the start of shows, i try to set my gains to keep faders at zero. But later, like maybe after rehearsals or breaks, I cant touch gains otherwise auxes gets changed, any tips?
So the idea is to get your faders at zero during sound check, using the gains to make adjustments. This gives you the ideal starting point when you start mixing the show. Once you are mixing you move the faders as needed, knowing you've got all the freedom of movement that starting at zero allows. You don't need to keep them at zero all the time, just start at zero.
+Soulsound but sometimes , during one show, you have many teams playing and sometimes they dont have the same levels . then, sometimes we are obliged to use gain to have the level come back to 0db.any better way to do??
Are you using an analogue mixer?
I just jump through scenes with different bands with my digital mixer
+Tim Richardson yep. still analog. i'm seriously thinking to move to digital (behringer X32 rack version -budget limited reason) may be next year. but some times , all the players dont come during soundcheck. then we are obliged to improvise during their showtime
+Lionel Sakiti You need to make a Recall Sheet for each band. You can download these from product websites(search for the desk name and "recall sheet" or "crib sheet".) This is a link to one for Midas Venice www.lervag.no/cuesheets/venice.pdf. Print as many as you need to cover the number of channels you have. Put the number of the channel on top then mark up where you have all your knobs and switches for each channel for each band. Some people take photos but I find this takes much more time to reset the desk than copying the setting off a piece of paper. In this way you can have the starting-point for each band written down and easy to get back to where they ended after soundcheck.
this is how I mix both in live and in my DAW,getting each part of the mix (each channel) to their optimum levels without clipping and with proper gain,then just like in my DAW use the bus track (bus faders on an actual mixer) to adjust the mix
I like this but I was never a VCA guy unless I have horn sections etc. I agree with the zero mark.
Are you talking about gain staging and what's a vca or sub group on a mixer I have a small behringer mixer
Man do people ever get hung up on this topic.... For me it is the difference between running the console at unity or running it without headroom. IF you really try to squeeze every last ounce of un-clipped signal on each channel as you set your headamp gain, you will get about 10 channels into it and the master bus summing amplifier is going to be out of headroom.
NOW.... I know this is especially true for your $4,000 and under mixers. I have personally done this on a QSC TouchMix, Presonus StudioLive and an X32 although they are approaching the 10 year mark now. Mixers that are more in the Pro Audio category have the ability to maintain a higher channel count and still not max out the master bus. A Midas Pro Series console is a great example.... it doesn't care what you throw at it...
Pat Brown at SynAudCon states (I challenge any of you to debate him), that the gain knob (while the fader is at unity) only needs to be turned up enough for the instrument, vocalist or whatever to be heard properly in the mix. DONE.
A Marshall stack cranked does NOT need the amount of gain added to it that a vocalist needs. A piccolo snare in a small bar being hit by a guy who thinks he is doing stadium gigs does NOT need to be PFL'd to the point that your meter is just below clip because the odds are - that fader isn't moving from the bottom anyways. The snare will already be loud coming off the stage.
That brings up another interesting point for all you PFL'ers.... Let's say you set your gain structure for a band using a small PA system. You got all your channels set.... got your faders where you want them and then I walk in and unplug your small PA from your mixer and Inject a real BEEFY PA on to your desk. I'm talking some real meat here..... Where do you think your faders are going to end up at on the desk now? The singers will be at -30 and everyone else will be at the bottom because the system is so strong that you have NO fader control.... signal to noise is real good though in that venue with a metal ceiling, shiny reflective walls and concrete floor.
Anyways, that is my .02 cents worth. This really comes down to context... size of venue & it's acoustic characteristics, Size of sound system, how tame or untame is the band?
I have the honor of using a Midas Pro Series console that has a Stagebox gain and a digital trim. So I could gain way up like some of you do but then switch to the "Trim" knob and bring the volume back down yet retain that strong signal level AND have my faders at unity or close to unity.
One last thing..... Unity haters always say, "You are going to mess up everyone"s mix and compressors and effects".... YES we would ONLY if we used the gain knob AFTER setting sends on fader or compressors or effects. Why would you assume we would do it in that order?
If anyone has the ability to record off the desk, just record using the two methods. Listen to each and then decide what you like best.
Good Stuff Soulsound!
JerryD7 well put mate!
Both sides of the argument are correct: (1) Technically speaking, this method is not optimal gain staging (2) This method is highly practical especially that modern equipment have lower noise floors. I recommend Dave Rat's "Optimize Gain Structure" video where he discusses how to achieve the best of both worlds.
Hi,
Where do you control the overall volume from, the main out faders or the power amps?
Set your system via the amps. Control on the master outs on the console.
Scotland Scenes It’s a little bit of a dance sometimes, but typically amps are set to a standardized gain, generally full up, and the drive device which is post console, is gained to give the console operator a zero master fader at the desired max volume, drive device being essentially the crossover for the simplest systems and a dedicated piece of matrix electronics for the most complex systems. For most users, the consoles built-in matrices are the place to do this ‘reference gaining’.
Must be notted that it is not ideal to sub-gain inputs with digital desk because : you need the signal to come in as hot as possible to have the highest bit resolution on inputs converters. On Digital desk you might try to gain up the hottest you can before peak and then use a trim to put digital signal down to have your fader at 0db mark .
Great video, i actually stood along side you at a Prodigy gig in Manchester, was cool as fuck
and If I dont have VCA on my board, can I use sub group the same way as vca?
Lionel Sakiti You can use them in a similar fashion, but they are not the same thing. A VCA is simply a "volume control" for all the channels routed to it. Sub groups, on the other hand are more versatile in that you can process the sub group channels - ie apply compression, effects, panning. Of course, you can also use the subgroups for simple volume control of all the channels routed to it if you don't want to add any further processing.
Soulsound thanks.
Can you please if you had time make a video of gain structure. How to set the volume of the power amps when mixing at zero?
Lionel Sakiti I will put gain structure on the list to film! In general, unless you have a good reason not to, most people leave the power amps at full all the time.
thanks
but do you also leave your amps at full???all the time??
I used this technique at a jazz festival... they never contacted me again after that year.... and they were right not to!! Everything sounded terrible! If you have a separate gain and trim knob this technique is a great idea.... always get a decent signal on your input meter first or be prepared to lose work!!
I'm not really sure what you're talking about. This is a fundamental aspect of live sound. What kind of mixer were you running where you didn't have gain control?
Works very well for me, whether on analogue or digital consoles.
I would caution the young mixer from trying to keep the fader at zero all the time, for 3 reasons.
1, if you are mixing monitors from FOH, and you change the input gain to keep the fader at zero, then you've just changed all the monitors on stage and the band isn't going to be happy. Not an issue if somebody else is doing monitors, but it's a bad habit to get into starting out, because more often than not, you will be doing monitors from FOH. It can also be an issue if there is a multi-track record feed, that's using direct outs from FOH.
and 2., the purpose of the input gain is to balance S/N ratios and bit depth usage on digital consoles. Once that's pretty well adjusted, you won't want to be changing it unless the musician starts playing louder or softer. For instance, say there's a keyboard solo, but the guitarist isn't playing any softer to make room for it. You don't want to adjust the gain, because the guitarist hasn't changed level, and so changing the gain to keep the fader at zero is going to change the S/N ratio and bit depth. Just move the fader to re-balance the mix!
And 3., if a system has already really good gain structure, then you might be able to set the input gain by putting the fader at zero, and just moving the pot until the sound is a good level (sometimes called "nominal gain"). But if it DOESN'T, then keeping the fader at zero might mean you have gain set terribly, and you're not adaquately using your bit depth, or you're clipping to all hell. In that situation, then you should make an adjustment somewhere else, like an output fader, in a processor, or at an amp. But if you can't make that adjustment for some reason, then you're better off not keeping the fader at zero.
+FromBehindTheBoard Thanks for your comment - the idea Jon is trying to get across is not "never move your fader from zero", rather it is to set up your gain structure so that you can start your mix with faders at zero. This gives you a high level of control as this is the position from which you have the best movement on the faders. It also allows you to notice instantly if anything is very wrong, like someone knocking a fader as they walk past. Once your gains are set, of course they should not be fiddled with unless absolutely necessary, especially when doing monitors from FOH.
I've had several sound engineers (FOH) that run the main fader all the way up and barely move the channel fader instead - using the gain control instead. Never made any sense. I like the channels close to unity.
This makes a lot of sense.
funkfactor1 Glad you think so! I do too.
Thank you!
You can use the sub groups in a similar way to the VCA's. Once again it is much easier to sub group all the drums together and pull them up and down with just a pair of faders than all the individual faders. I always have the amps on 0, although occasionally I will turn the subs up... but that is my style!
+Jon Burton . but in case , I juste have 4 sub groups .How better using them ? (drums on1-2, and backing vocals on 3-4). what are your choices during a set for sub groups?.my mixer is an allen and heath GL2400-32.then i only have 2 pair subgroups
Hi Lionel
It depends on the channel list but I normally do a stereo drum sub group I will then use the second sub group for rest of Backline. Occasionally I will use the sun groups in mono instead and put kick snare and High hat and sometimes bass on one mono group. It all depends what you feel you are able to group in a meaningful way. There are no hard and fast rules!
+Jon Burton Thanks. how to make mono group?is it by panning left or right?
+Lionel Sakiti Yes the GL2400 has four mono groups that can be panned either left or right or left in the centre (mono).
It depends if you have the choice to go with your channels directly to " MIX"or if you have as for some mixers to go at first trough subgoups then from the subgroups to the mix. For me in the 2 possible ways i probabely in both cases use 1+2 for the instruments and 3 if there is only one bvoc not panoramised, 4 for the lead voc and 3+4 for all vocs even the lead if more than 1bvoc to panoramise by ex. left bvoc at 9 or 10 o'clock and right bvoc at 2or3 o'clock, leaving the lead at the center.
Ok what about signal to noise ratio? Ridiculous.
What sound desk is being used here plz
It's a Soundcraft Series Five
soundcraft series 5
If you want to record set all your pres appropriately to optimize your recording bit depth and then mix your inputs and your subgroups.
What is the name of the mixer?
It's a Soundcraft Series 5
hi,which mixer
This is a Soundcraft MH2 or MH3
this idea works great with a split for monitors. otherwise I believe he is trying to say shoot for unity
Me too. With faders at żero. Same reasons.
Midas XL 4 is a nice console
Soooo all the positions on the fader besides plus 5 minus 5 and zero are a waste of space on the board? Hahahahaha 😜
Someone who only understands -18ish on an X32, and wants to argue about gain, because that's all they learned on, yeah .. I'm just walking away at this point once they start arguing with me about the lack of importance of signal chain in real-world Analogue, Coz... RUclips said Analogue is dead etc ...........................
-11 , vs -18 .. Pre EQ , Post Dynamics etc, can ANYONE under 30yo tell the difference in the real world in Live Sound of a huge scale, Analogue/Digital Console before them, why each is significant before arguing about how they set up their X32, let alone their SD7 or ProX ????
great Scott!!!! Set the input gains for maximum gain without clipping. The objective to a great mix is to balance things where they need to be (WITH YOUR EARS) nobody gives a crap if all the faders are sitting straight and pretty. The position of the faders has nothing to do with musical balance. For instance, if you adjust gain for a high hat, and adjust it for maximum signal to noise ratio, you can bet your bottom dollar that fader is not going to be near as high as vocals for a proper balance... Gee :( I couldn't help myself, sorry. If you don't have VCAs, a bunch of groups is not going to be your friend. Where is the rolling eyes emoji?
You're missing the point. Finishing with the faders at/around zero after soundcheck leaves you with oodles of control during the mix. If your hi-hat fader is really low and you need to tweak it by a tiny bit, low down on the faders you don't have the subtlety as they are logarithmic in nature. Any slight move down there results in a big difference. A subtle move around the 0 mark results in a subtle difference to your mix. Gain structure is a combination of gain, EQ and fader to find the optimal starting point for the show, after which using the faders while the band are playing is a doddle and give you the freedom to mix WITH YOUR EARS (sorry, couldn't resist!) and having the option for subtle moves.
Darryn, you are correct, for me, after I do a sound check for concert, the faders are sitting right where they need to be (not all straight across) and assuming that the musicians sing and play like they did in soundcheck, everything will be great,
This technique is terrible for gain structuring and signal-to-noise ratio management.
💯💯✔✔❤❤
This is totally wrong!!! If you set your gains like this, set the fader at -10 not 0!!!! Damn this makes me angry.
This is correct, when the band is good you should be at unity (0)
This would mean that most of the input levels would be incorrect. Looks like poor advice to me.
You miss the point. The idea is to end your soundcheck with all faders at zero, so have the best possible starting point, with the most access to subtlety possible. Of course you can move your during the show.
It's still poor advice.
do you even gain structure bruh
Please DO NOT listen to this guy. this type of mixing is TOTALLY INCORRECT! you must begin your mix with a solid gain structure before you turn the faders up. all sound consoles have their own unique sound esp the pre amp which is the signature sound of the manufacture, not to mention that good gain structure is required for your compressors and EQ's to work and sound properly.
Think of it as water flow, you must give as much pressure from the main (heap amp / pre amp) in order for water to flow through the rest of the valves in the house. If youre restricting from the main, you wont get enough pressure even when you turn your shower up all the way. Youre going to bird bath yourself!
PLEASE PLEASE DONT LEARN FROM THIS VIDEO!
zak stamps that would also give a lot of noise, and a higher chance of burning voice coils
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. Yes, good gain structure is extremely important, but good gain structure doesn't mean pushing the pres or getting every channel to meter at the same level. In fact, doing that will greatly increase the noise floor/mic bleed as well as create feedback quicker. Good gain structure means getting enough useable gain before feedback, which will be very different for example on a vocal than it is on a hi-hat. That being said, things change if you're talking about running FOH and Monitors from the same desk, because then you're not only controlling one mix, you're controlling 5 or 6 or maybe even 10 mixes at once. If the gain is too low then you won't be able to feed the musicians mixes properly. Proper gain structure changes depending on the application. All that being said, when mixing only FOH I prefer to use this method.
I would always get the gain right first and aim to getting the faders on the active channels as close to zero as possible and then use the bus faders to mix,I do some of the mixing with the channel faders but just like how I do it on my DAW,each channel should be as close as possible to zero,then adjust the mix accordingly via the bus track (in this case for an actual mixer the bus faders)
I'm 100% agree with you ( sorry for my bad english ) i'm 57 years old and have try to learn my job (mainly FOH with analog mixers) . For me gain structure is the most and maybe the hardest thing to understand because there is many places where gain changes, not only the gain pot and the channel fader. At the beggining the first thing i have learned after rolling cables properly was ALWAYS THE GAIN AT 0dB !Wich was rihgt maybe with old cheap mixers. But a few years later i have change a little bit my way of working i ad opportunity of working in a P.A company wich had a Yamaha PM 4000, a Midas xl3, xl4, and Heritage 4000. And with these high top mixer i had a lot of time good results with a channel fader between - and+ 2dB, and working more with the gain pot, specially with the xl4, trying to have the 20 dB pad on, the gain pot at 12 0'clock not using sub-groups but only the VCAs and the L-R master faders at - 3dB. All that is a nice dream but not always the situation.It is why i try to understand the whole signal system more to read the book " HOW TO HAVE THE BEST SOUND....AND ALWAYS ! " Have a lot of pleasure to realise the best of you can with what you have !
I' m completely agre wiht you, but as you said ,it is more easy when you have to mix "only" the FOH , it is also for me more easy when you have a very good analog mixer like a Midas xl4, a Yamaha pm5000, or a ATI Paragon II wich for me is one of the 3 or 4 best console i heard, but no more manufactured. And yes most of time bad cheap mixer you have to give them"food" if you want they work at their best level ! And i will never say that because a mixer is cheap it's automatically bad, at my beginning in this job, i really enjoyed with a 16 channels Soundcraft 200B.
Tidy way to mix...
Went from mixing mud to this wtf
CHEPOSPOOKY 😂😂😂😂 same character!(especially if u disagree with him)
Today's hip hop shit music, one doesn't need a mixing board. Hip hop is nothing more than muddy bloated bass!!!
Please don't do this, if it means you have bad gain structure
This is contrary to everything I have both read and learned from sound professionals. Gain structure is the most basic part of mixing, and maximising gain is the best way to get headroom from your system. Faders should never all end up at unity, simply based on the different dynamics of the instrument and voices going through mics. You're teaching poor principles.
Teach us better then ;)