Detroit Become Human is Amazing, for the Wrong Reasons
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
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In this episode of Writing on Games I review Detroit Become Human - a game I ended up enjoying immensely, for none of the reasons intended by its creator, David Cage.
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Intro text animation by Draz: / drazgames
/ @drazgames
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Writing on Games How come you don't say your last nane anymore T T
I was wondering the same.
The last line of the review sums it up perfectly.
To paraphrase; "The 6 hour game of "Become human" ironically feels more like a glorified tech demo than "Kara" the 7 minute tech demo."
!!!C-C-C--COMBO BREAKER!!!
Why do I feel like you've devoted your life to hating this game
4:00 The Connor/Hank dialogue was often improvised by the voice actors, while Cage told them to knock it off :)
It should be noted that the whole reason Connor and Hank's story is the strongest one in the game is because their actors have incredible chemistry. Bryan Dechart even admitted on a stream that he and Clancy did a lot of improv in their scenes, so half of the reason they're so good is because they ignored David Cage, which I find hilarious.
They were my favorite characters it makes sense
Oh my gosh, I forgot about that, haha. Explains a lot!
The way Markus “freed” androids felt more like spreading a computer virus that made androids obey him rather than humans, and the “convert” made it sound like he was making a cult
yeah instead of that I would like to have Markus persuade androids to come over to his side instead of just "converting" them like if you had to persuade them then it would have made the game much more interesting and enticing then those androids that Markus successfuly persuades could go and persuade others then help you out later on with lots of androids on your side of their own will instead of you forcing them to follow you
Mohammad Al Rashidi It all depends on perspective. If you think about it as removing someone's program, it seems like removing someone's chains. If, for example, a long time ago, you helped free a slave, of course they'll support you since they saved you
But then again, I would've loved persuasion over coverting, but it's kind of small. This game has so many choices that impact your story that I can actually see past that
Quasaur Productions Well tbh you just converting them to your side is very hypocritical since the antagonists of the story manipulate them into thinking that deviants are bad like it's not all programming it also includes them mentally manipulating them so you basically forcing them to follow you by converting them is just you doing the same thing as the antagonists of the story and the game is about androids having free will but this isn't free will at all it's you forcing them to your side so it isn't a small part of the story it just destroys the entire point of the story since both the protagonist charecters and antagonist charecters are just forcing androids to their side (antagonists do mentality mainupulate them to a certain extent but still) so something like this takes the story from good to bad imo
Nah
Fun fact about why Conner's story is the most enjoyable! The actor that played Conner was given (or just took) more freedom to change up the script than the other protags. So, in a way, the reason Conner is the best to play as is because Cage had less writing involved XD
I honestly don't get the hype around Connor and Hank.
What people like them David had the least writing influence on them? That's a pretty silly reason to like them.
Now don't get me wrong, Connor and Hank are fantastic characters, but the truth is, they are literally overshadowing the other 20-50 other incredible actors who worked on the game.
No, I just meant that a big reason Connor was so much more fun to play as was because the actor took his own liberties with him. We don't like him more because David had less involvement. It's just that their relationship wasn't soiled from Cages awful character writing.
Plague Yeah, but I’m kind of tired of seeing him everywhere. Especially when he’s not even my favourite character. I’m just really sad because his popularity is literally overpowering every other character in the game, especially some of the more underrated, but fantastic ones.
@@OoXLR8oO I definitely agree with you there.
Plague Nice to see you can. A lot of people I discuss this topic disrespect my opinion because Connor and Hank aren’t my favourite characters.
Like I get it, they’re insanely good characters, but if they die, they die. That’s it for me. But if that were Kara and Alice instead, I would wipe my tears away while restarting the playthrough.
Hank and Connor were the best part of the game and was the main reason I enjoyed the game as much as I did. There were also some fun Kara parts that I enjoyed and were genuinely exciting. But I agree about the extreme heavy-handedness of Markus' story. Even my 13 year old sister who loves even the most cliche stories groaned everytime she watched me play Markus. This game would've been so much better if they cut him out or made a better story.
mhh71201 yessss
Exactly
I felt the same. But sadly, I think the issue was that the Markus story was sort of...mandatory? Without him there was no greater context from what was going on with androids that drove the other stories along. And unless you were the leader, there was no realistic way for you to have decided whether it went a peaceful or violent way.
I've said it a few times here. I think the point of the Markus story was to decide what Connor was chasing and what Kara was running from. On its own it was just...meh.
markus could have easily been an npc, heck we already have an in-game alternative for him: ra9, he doesn't even need to be an actual figure
and the way the protests went could have easily been affected by how you play the game: killing humans/getting them killed lowers public opinion increasing violence etc cause in the finished game it does absolutely jack shit until the very end.
the whole of markus' story is such a fucking mess, literally ruined my sympathy for deviants as well because apparently all it takes for these machines to gain consciousness is another android touching them on the shoulder and saying "wake up"
That might've been an interesting way of doing things - having an offscreen Markus skew more good or evil depending on how you played the others.
And I do agree they sort of ruined the mystique of androids becoming human with the touching. I'd have been more willing to accept it if they'd have made it more concrete that RA9 was a subroutine in all androids that turned off safety protocols and allowed them to experience true emotions. At that point, you can kind of package it as a virus that spreads through touch. Until I reached the end, honestly, I'd thought that was the direction they were going with it. Like, we were going to see a bunch of flashbacks that showed how it spread from a single character that turned out to be the surprising source.
I was a little disappointed when it didn't happen, because I felt like I'd started making connections in my mind that the game never rewarded.
I didn't hate Markus...per se. But in a weird way, I kind of wish the revolution had mostly happened without him until the very end, at which point he could have been pushed into the position that at least interacted with the leader that he could suggest directions the movement could go. I actually really enjoyed the way he related to Carl. Carl was sort of a lens that allowed us to see how human Markus was. His portion in the art studio was interesting, because I assumed it was leading up to...something. Carl was watching his android slowly become human without a triggering event, and he seemed excited by it.
Then...yeah. He just goes out and has the magic power to tell other androids what to do. Which could've still been cool, if there was some sort of reveal explaining how it came to be in a way that was surprising and satisfying. Instead, I feel like there was a missing piece that I really wanted to have revealed that never showed up. And obviously there can't be a sequel in the conventional sense, because I'm not sure how they could tie in to all the branching paths without making people feel like the way they went was "wrong."
As time goes on, I think of more and more ways Markus could have been a fun story. It was a missed opportunity, definitely.
elseñor di señor ra9 is subtly hinted to be the player and not Markus, that's why Chloe in the main menu talks to US directly and not generally. She also on multiple occasions shows signs of deviancy because of what we the player chose in the game.
Markus is the leader aka spokesperson
The player is ra9(aka the person who will give the Androids a dream through their choices).
Everyone I talked to thought that Connors part was the best in the game.
Hopefully Quantic Dream realizes where their strengths were and expand on them, maybe do a less ambitious project, but do it well.
Seriously. If Cage made a game that was exclusively a buddy cop story and had fantastic police procedural mechanics I'd eat it right up. It's what he's best at.
May I ask who's games you buy?
Can you link that video?
Jordan Hill
since android is not human and doesnt have real gender(i mean it doesnt matter if they look like male or female, its just a body), i understand why those android like each other.
Connor is my favourite character too, but if you look at the poll it asks you after you finish the game only about 11% of people picked him as their favourite and even less picked kara. But it seems the majority of people prefer the blunt and straightforward storyline of Markus.
I wonder if Connor wasn't written by Cage because the writing quality between the other characters and Conner is just crazy
It's a good question. I actually didn't mind the other parts as much as others, but Connor's portion was so much stronger it really overshadowed a lot of the rest.
I mean, maybe it was just easier to write? That relationship and story was so deep and three-dimensional it was almost hard to mess up. Plug in even vaguely believable dialogue and it'd be great. I think it was much harder to write Kara's story when her single note is wanting to protect Alice no matter what. (Even if, as a parent, it really resonated with me personally.) And Markus was just...sort of generically brooding and not fun.
I still sort of wonder if there was some way the Markus story could have been replaced and yet still been about the broader android civil rights story that figured into Connor's and Kara's as a backdrop.
thenerdempire Connor's position definitely offered a more interesting storyline, since he is pretty much finding out why deviancy occurs, which all the players are interested in. The buddy-cop relationship was definitely a boost, Hank had the humanity, Connor being innocent.... awesome stuff.
And about Kara, have u watched the short clip that started this whole game? I think perhaps her love for Alice being the whole point of her story was relatable, but not thought-provoking. I found that clip of her feeling "alive" a lot more intriguing and I felt like they could have elaborated on that. Of course, that would change her entire storyline.
justdance Yes, I've watched the Tec Demo. Why didn't they used this concept ?! Completely agree with your comment.
I watched the original clip sometime back. Long enough ago that by the time Detroit came out, I'd forgotten the connection entirely. I think I'll have to watch it again and see what I think now.
Kara's story was actually well-designed in some ways, though I feel like the entire point of her story was in regards to the spoiler at Jericho. Before then, I think they milked the emotion by constantly putting you in situations where you basically had to weigh out Alice's comfort, her safety and her feelings about what was right and wrong regarding Kara's actions. I rode out most of it on the feeling that children innately had to be protected. It was only when I hit the revelation (which caught me a little off-guard because I was so focused on protecting that I didn't really pay close attention) that I feel like Kara's humanity and message became more clear.
It don't think it was as insightful as Connor's, no. But I do think it posed interesting questions for you to answer as a player. And it wasn't until that moment that I was totally sure Kara actually loved Alice or if she was just going through the motions as a lingering shadow of her original programming as caretaker.
I think her thoughtful portions are there, but I had to see a few different paths to see them. One was when Alice died right at the end of the game, and I had to choose between viewing Kara's only reason in life as protecting Alice or if she could live on. I decided, given what I'd seen, that she could keep living. She had more to live for than just Alice, because she was, in fact, alive.
Though I'd be lying if I said I hadn't wanted to just lie down in the snow next to her, like we were both going to sleep together like the night we spent in the abandoned house.
And I think...maybe that's the point? Markus's portion was overwritten, to the point that you were forced to see what they wanted you to. Connor's was perfectly written, and gave you some wiggle room in the message you got. Kara was sort of an empty glass. In some ways, you filled it as the story went on and created your own message.
But I can understand that it didn't work that way for everyone.
I also want to be clear that there is no question that Connor's story was, hands down, the best. If that wasn't clear.
I think the main problem with this game is markus,
this wasnt the game for him, his story is too big and world changing compared to the other two, think of connors and hanks story, its about two dudes who wouldnt normally get along learning to appreciate each other and their differences,
Karas story is about family and the fight to protect her child, these are small, character driven stories,
Markus's story is about him becoming god and changing the world, he doesnt fit with the other two.
The story i would have liked to see is connor trying to catch kara, for the whole game, no jesus stuff, no fight for android freedom, just a cat and mouse game between two extremely well written characters.
all of connors story could have been trying to understand and catch deviants, plus ra9 stuff, which is never explained from what i can tell. all of karas story could have been her trying to out run him, maybe connors deviant choice moment could have been whether or not to let kara get away or to shoot her like he'd always planned, that would have been a hell of a lot better than him just pointing a gun at markus (a character who he gave no shits about for almost all of the game) then magically becoming a deviant.
the moments kara and connor shared were seriously amazing, the stress thats put on the player as they try to decide who should come out on top is great, too bad there werent more of them.
Ok you should've been in charge of writing the game.
Markus’ plot shoulda shone more light on Carl
your story would have been just like Fahrenheit tho
No, that would of been a shit game, a cat and mouse game wouldnt make sense, the point of the game is to show how the deviants want to be equal to humans
@@razvanbaltatescu6099 still tho, the whole "android protest and revolution cuz we feel human" has been done a lot though already. This guy's idea is to focus on more of the micro aspects than macro with the revolution being a backdrop.
Fun fact: The reason that the Hank and Connor relationship is so strong is because the actors (Clancy Brown and Bryan Dechart) would improvise and riff off each other; any time David Cage caught them doing so, he would insist that they stop and follow his script. So, the Hank/Connor relationship isn't strong because of David Cage, but rather, in spite of David Cage.
I would honestly LOVE a game revolved around Connor and Hank
Fully agree
Same
gay detectives 😳
the game would take a lot of years to make. what about tv show? 👀
@@mikemiles2241 calm your boner
Markus was definitely the weak link, his story just wasn’t personal enough.I didn’t understand why the androids followed him the way they did, it just kind of happened, there wasn’t really a moment where Markus showed them he was the one to lead them.
I would have loved if his story was following his attempts at inciting institutional changes due to his connection with Carl and the higher castes of society, taking a more institutional approach to Android civil rights whilst Connor dealt with the androids like North who were taking more extreme approaches to gain freedom.
He could interact with the Jericho movement (painted as an extremist Android faction, who Connor is tracking down), their experiences influencing Markus’ own choices in the game.
Heck, maybe it should be North’s journey as an Android extremist freedom fighter and her shitty experiences with humanity who meets Markus with his essentially perfect life (by android standards) to show how ones experiences shape their world view, but that’s just me.
Also his relationship with Carl was just criminally underused, like all the main characters were in a pair of some sort with that person inciting the changes that makes them become human, someone to constantly push them through the story and character development.
Markus didn’t really change much to me, he didn’t have the character development of Connor nor did he have his innate human instincts brought out like Kara. He was just this Messiah character (I genuinely hate those because it feels lazy to me when writers are like, this person is the leader just ...because), we don’t know him, he isn’t human like Connor or Kara. He’s a mouthpiece to civil rights.
I just didn’t like his backstory. Why is the one android that had a good life the one to start a revolution?
All Messiahs are written kind of like that, including Jesus, right? They are boring because they don't go through anything profound on a personal level. It's like they just perform their job, which they are already convinced of from start to finish. I mean, if one simplify it.
The one great Messiah that comes to mind is E.T. because he is clumsy and cute in his journey while at the same time being this extraordinary and pure creature.
As goofy as the classic David Cage mechanics are, this game looks absolutely beautiful.
*Reads your name and sees your profile picture* Good taste in games
ヌイババNuibaba Hey, thanks dude :D
You are not allowed to like anything about the game because a lot people are offended 😡
everything is putting their full effort into the game except for David Cage lol
The graphics, soundtrack, and the content this game has is absolutely breathtaking! It's just a shame that David Cage couldn't keep up with them with his writing
Man I just love the characters, relationships, visuals, and concept. Yeah, it can be heavy-handed, but it’s easy to dismiss.
I really, really love the father-son thing between Hank and Connor and Carl and Markus.
Agreed
I personally think game was really fun. I enjoyed all three characters and enjoyed the pacifist route.
I actually liked the singing ending because of my own experience with music, so it resonated with me personally.
I can understand why people don't like this game, but at the same time I can see why people will like it.
In the end, we're all entitled to out own opinion, I just wanted to show some support for the game as I am a fan. Is the writing a bit much, yes, as well as the imagery, yes.
But I still found myself enjoying it.
But that's my piece, no harm no foul. Hope yall have a great day, afternoon or night.
Same. I don't mind that people didn't like a thing I liked. But I am sad to see so many of the comments like, "Well, it's fine that you enjoy it. I guess if you just turn off your brain anything can be fun." I think people can talk about not enjoying it without making the implication that people who do are idiots or just like bad things. (I think the video conveyed the "if you like it, fine" idea better than some of the worst commenters.)
And I agree with the overdone imagery, too. Some of it was a bit thick. It's just when people say that the mere presence of parallels between the events of this game and civil rights are bad that I roll my eyes a little. I've actually seen the phrase "Rosa Parks simulator" three times now. And...I don't get it? I feel like I was playing a different game than some of these people.
Who knows? It was a branching storyline, so maybe I missed a really boring part. Haha.
thenerdempire Thanks for your reply mate. Glad to hear that I'm not the only one who really enjoyed the game.
And I mean let's be honest; while this is my first quantum dream game, it's probably one of the best.
It's good enough that I think there's no shame in finding enjoyment in it. It has a lot of flaws, but there's a lot to like as well *cough connor cough*. Thanks for not assuming every critic is just a hater. I think at the end of the day, if it's enjoyable, then it's worthwhile!
Man, I loved the game! You're not alone hahaha. For me, it's the best in his genre.
How tf is pressing the right button when the action is happening for you "fun"
The writing may be bad, but it's the only game I've played where your choices ACTUALLY matter. And there are so many different endings that it has very high replayability. I loved it for these reasons.
The only one ever or the only David Cage one? Because there's some damn fantastic games I could recommend
@@adambomb9715 recommend away fam!
@@emilystewart6175 Fallout New Vegas is your go to. Definitely one of the best video games ever made. You can literally do anything in that game. You can try to crumple up the script and make paper airplanes out of it, and the game's story will mold itself around your actions. Everything you do matters. There are no unkillable NPCs, no matter how vital they are to the plot. Also the story is actually pretty thoughtful and well written. The first two Fallouts are also like this, but you might have a harder time liking them because they're old isometric 2d games unlike NV.
Disco Elysium is also an isometric RPG. But it's alot more polished and easier to pick up, probably because it was made quite recently. Again, there are multiple branching paths and your choices really matter. Considered by many to be one of the best games of the decade.
I'm sure you've also heard of Until Dawn. The plot itself is pretty linear but the way you play has an effect on characters' fates.
The Mass Effect trilogy is also a great series of RPGs with great world building and excellent characters. It's not as branching as the rest of the games I've mentioned, but your choices certainly matter.
@@falcononpc9845 I’m guessing they mean in this type of genre. I mean they’re still wrong as Until dawn does this and The Quarry, admittedly at a smaller scale but at least they have actual engaging tasks and more thought out themes and messages
Why is the writing bad?
Because I haven’t found anything wrong with it.
isn't showing abuse through the crayon drawings of a child the exact sort of show don't tell a good writer is supposed to do in a visual work?
But no child would draw something like this. Have you seen young kids draw? It looks like shit most of the time! ;)
@@MadMaxBLD but alice is an android, not a real child, or at least the alice we meet in the game
@@aesune It stands to reason that she could draw this stuff because she isn't human, yes. On the other hand, that would make for a bad simulation of a human child, which is the point of the android.
@@MadMaxBLD the YK500 child was advertised as the perfect child, so maybe cyberlife implemented fairly good drawing skills into it. at the end of the day it’s probably just a small detail that was used for the plot and they didn’t expect much thought to go into it, i don’t know
@@MadMaxBLD A child can be good at drawing.
Detroit: Become Human would have been infinitely better if it was only about connor and hank. I really liked the game, but Connor's stuff was the best and the most fun to play.
Rikk Silirion Why aren't you playing Megaman X then?
??? what does that have to do with anything
Rikk Silirion Because it's _nearly_ the same thing: an android(X in Megaman X, Connor in this game)designed to capture deviant(maverick in Megaman X)androids gets caught up in an android uprising(Maverick Wars in Megaman X)caused by an exceptional android that has turned deviant(Sigma in Megaman X, Markus in this game).
Without Kara I wouldnt buy the game tbh
I really liked her story, though Connor did have the most gameplay, I thought it went for way too long.
disagree. i think all 3 chracters were crucial. obviously some were better executed than others and had more consistency, but without each of them, the game will be incomplete and hollow imo
Sure, Markus‘ third of the story was somewhat cliché, but not even that much. I found Connor‘s character, storyline, and relationship with Hank refreshing and intriguing. Detroit: Become Human will be a longtime favorite of mine.
worldfilledwithmore i completely agree
worldfilledwithmore I agree! And of course there were a few plot holes, but that can be overlooked because the story itself is amazing in my opinion. It’s something everyone’s thought of, but not anything I’ve seen anyone really do well.
there are a lot of issues with the markus' story line that aren't really evident at first glance. I definitely thought dbh was a great game until I saw someone pointing out some of its pretty blatant issues... most of which are unfortunately tied to markus' part. most obviously is that the civil war allegory was done kinda poorly honestly. I still like the game but almost entirely because of Connor and Hank and the family dynamic of Luther Kara and Alice, not so much because of the story...
How was the civil rights allegory done poorly?
Jade Harley I stood there are let Alice die. I sort of love the way I started the game trying to be a good Android with each character, but by the end had become a deviant. And just like my first play of Heavy Rain, everyone died.
So it's basically a David Cage game after all. No disappointment since I really enjoy his games, despite the obvious silliness. As you said it: ridiculous, but fun.
I heard early on this was his best game but... ehh... honestly, I dunno.... I think this might legitimately be worse than Heavy Rain, as problem-filled as it was. But it's at least better than Beyond Two Souls and Indigo Prophecy, despite how low that bad is.
dracocrusher
I get what you're saying but I have fond memories about both Fahrenheit (or Indigo Prophecy which is a title I hate because is a spoiler in itself) and Heavy Rain. Sure, after finishing both games I was like "wait, what?", but I still enjoyed them for the time they lasted. Most of my problems with those games are actually in retrospective.
+Gab Gallard
Most of the problems in them is at the 50%+ mark where you get to a point where the story has to come together and make sense and it all just devolves into absolute nonsense. Enjoyable nonsense, but it's still just a complete mess of misinformation and out of nowhere ideas and stuff that just doesn't make sense.
I guess that's something they might have over Detroit though? Because as dumb as stuff like Shawn's death is, I feel like that's not as bad as a lot of the stuff in Detroit's opening is like the first crime scene making no sense at all and Todd being the most obvious villain ever or how androids who break their programming have almost consistently just hung around their crime scenes for no reason at all.
dracocrusher How do you mean the first crime scene made no sense at all? I'm not trying to defend the game or anything, just genuinely curious about your point of view.
+Kyle Nielson
Okay, so the way it plays out based on the reconstructions is that the android saw his master ordering another android and he just shoots him, making the guy drop his tablet. That's like the basic short of it that David Cage wants you to take away. But we also have an entire other reconstruction showing him opening the case with the gun inside and getting the weapon after he saw his owner going to order a new android.
This means that the owner's sitting in a chair, his android happens to look over his shoulder and see him ordering the android, then the android manages to go Deviant, walks around INTO ITS OWNERS FIELD OF VIEW, reached up on its toes to get the gun case, put the case on the floor, opened it, and then manually loaded the gun all directly right in front of where the owner could see him. And then instead of just taking the shot he then took the extra effort to walk all the way around the guy while visibly armed just so he could shoot him in the back of the head. So the entire murder hinged on the owner just not looking up the entire time his android was clearly arming himself right in front of him while he was waiting for the payment on his new android to go through because when you find the tablet it's still on the screen showing that he's placed the order.
So that's kind-of nonsensical enough, but then we later learn that Deviants aren't limited in what they can do at all. So what really makes this even weirder is that the android kills its owner and the police are called, but then instead f trying to escape or run he just takes a hostage and stays at the scene of the murder for no reason for minutes and just waits for someone to report gunshots and for the police to arrive and corner him for no reason at all! I get the in-game context of having to have the crime scene and the negotiations back to back for the tutorial, but why the heck would anybody ever murder someone and then just specifically wait for the police to cut off every possible exit route just on the off-chance that they don't just shoot you so you can get a chance to run anyways after they've thoroughly identified your face and directly connected you to the crime? I mean, really, what the heck? Are you trying to get caught or something?
The game's full of weird stuff like that where if you stop and think about the context for just a second it completely falls apart and makes no actual sense. Like there's another scene where an android's trying to kill itself and one of the cops randomly uncuffs this suicidal android with nothing to lose that has actively killed someone in a very clear-cut murder case and somehow he thought that was a good idea??? You know, because police are well known for uncuffing violent death-row murder victims for no reason at all I guess, lol.
I actually unironically like it
Most people did.
Freedster I feel like this dude just heard David cage was a bad writer and made a video on it to jump on the "David cage hate train"
Agreed.
a slippery sausage that isn't quite too slippery
Or maybe they're legitimate criticisms you're ignoring because you like the game.
Persona 4 is a pretty good game soooo
I get your point, and I am not here to justify every aspect of this game with five words (it's a David Cage game), however I must defend it. At least these types of games give us something new, something special, it's not like every other game, since it's a game/movie. Telltale wanted a piece of these type of mechanics, but the visual and whole experience (not episodic) is with the Cage games. This type of game is kind of like a genre in and of itself, the Cage games. And as a genre, it's not for everyone. I really like how we get these 8-10 hrs less challenging, but more experience focused games once in a while.
I just wish a competent writer would take a shot at doing this new genre.
That is not what he criticized. He said that what we get is an interactive movie disguised as a game and I heard multiple people say that what they want was either an actual game OR an actual interactive movie but not something that tries to have gameplay like this. And the writing while alright is... Like, literally segregation, androids are slaves and are treated like jews in world war 2? Really? That misses the whole premise of the concept.
It's not a bad game. You can make many meaningful choices and it is fun to watch, looks great and is overall a good experience - but it could be sooooo much better.
I actually really enjoyed the game, legitimately. I didn't really cry or feel sad at all, but I really cared about the revolution, and Connor and hank
Same!
Except I cried with Carl and Markus’s relationship
And I sobbed at Hank and Connor’s hug-
The game has too many boring parts, i don't even bother replaying it for second time
I actually love the game and it’s concepts.
Not a supporter of the argument presented in this video.
I actually found DBH to be a very well done game riddled with minor plotholes and major cliches of course. But nothing ever felt forced, stilted or awkward like in Beyond Two Souls (PS+ freebie) and Heavy Rain (bought brand new on release).
I wasn't going to pick this up looking back at Cage's history, but I did anway and was pleasantly surprised by the great pacing, believable acting, and predictable yet unpredictable mayhem that unfolded. Not once did I have a "why did Jason jump in the street" moment.
Connor (initially hated in the demo) was my favorite character by the end. Kara was the most human in presentation and her plotline was expertly woven into Connor and Marcus's. Marcus may be the only character who walks that cliche line to a T. His story was well done, but he himself and his story was just by the books.
Intentional or unintentional, this video came off as a pompous analysis of a pompous individuals work.😉
The only thing wrong with Beyond Two Souls is the romance between that girl and the guy who kidnapped her and set her up. She should hate that guy.
You're not alone.
Same
The Virgin Marty
Stockholm Syndrome
Deon Villanueva in my eyes the world building is terrible. Every information you find in the newspapers is about something related to androids. There is nothing else in this world. Androids,androids,androids... that is not how you build a believable world to me. It feels shallow.
David Cage really has made a name for himself. For someone who works so hard to spread the message that games can be more than just euphoric entertainment - which is definitely a just cause - his work mostly acts against that vision, by providing what is ultimately a load of nonsense stretched out to vaguely fit a game.
Game Revo Exactly! It makes me yearn for a well known author to get involved in one of these games. Someone who is recognised for crafting original stories rather than the same old tropes tied together into some story of redemption. That could really shock the system into some real change. With the explosion of TV show boxsets in recent years, there's no reason why video games can't ride that wave.
(Yes, there are some great video game writers, but it seems to be more of a studio issue that is blocking these sort of games. There needs to be a big hit that uses a big name effectively to break through for other writers)
Game Revo Cage literally takes elements from EVERYTHING for the robot game, from movies like bladerunner and world wars like ww2. It is depressing.
+Paul Wright
I think the closest we've ever gotten to a game writer with real name-brand notoriety behind them that's NOT putting out complete crap is Yoko Taro and Kojima. But among the two, Yoko Taro's entire shared universe is one of the most insane goofy messes of side content and weird directions I've ever seen and Kojima definitely does have his own tropes and hang-ups.
It would have been amazing if the Silent Hill game Kojima was making with Junji Ito went through, though. Who knows? Maybe Junji Ito would have been able to work on more gaming projects if that was a hit? And as one of the biggest horror icons in Japan, that could have really lead to a lot of cool stuff.
Cage has gotta be false flag.
Game Revo
I feel like he succeeds in proving the potential of games even if his games don’t. Like, one cannot look at or play his games and say this is all wrong, they can only say he needs better writers.
Honestly, I could have forgiven a lot of the ham fisted moral lessons and cliché tropes, but to me the thing that really annoyed me about the story was that androids could become deviant simply by being touched by another deviant android.
I get what David Cage was going for that ideas are like a virus, they can spread like wildfire. But it sort of contradicts what the story had already set up.
All the characters have a moment where they are faced with an intensely emotional traumatic event and they are commanded to act against their own will and they have to "break" the firewall of their programming, they "break" free and become conscious.
Its this idea that they have this latent humanity that was there all along, they just have to figure out how to free themselves. Its actually a very powerful message about our own humanity and the personal path we all have to take in our own lives to become enlightened.
To then turn around and make it so that converting someone to be deviant is simply like "reprogramming" them, cheapens and contradicts the whole narrative that coming to terms with ourselves and breaking free is an individual path, and that ultimately we all come to terms with the same essential truths in our own way.
It just feels like David Cage couldn't decide whether the androids were individuals or whether they were a hive mind.
@The MemeSlayer memories make an individual who they are. By your explanation, the androids are literally becoming hiveminds, all becoming Markus and following Markus' reasonings.
Yeah, and it certainly doesn't help that the androids movements are all synchronized and obey Markus without question. He could become a literal dictator and attempt genocide on humans and from everything we've seen, none would even think to stop him.
I much preferred how Conner's deviancy worked. Where it was a slow, gradual process that resulted from his experiences with the world. I think it would have been better if deviancy was a process *all* androids experience, instead of literally a Tag-You're-Emancipated anti-human virus.
@@pupville1055 “Tag-You’re-Emancipated” is the most hilarious and accurate way to put it 😂
What do you have against the message of the game?
I have to say that despite the heavy-handedness of the plot at times, there was lot I loved about the game (not including how dang gorgeous it looks a lot of the time, god damn). Setting aside Connor, the android sent by CyberLife, the rest of the cast at least intrigued me. The setting is pretty relevant--the articles you could read were all pretty accurate predictions of what exactly the human race could be dealing with in forty or fifty years. Everything from unemployment rates and human leisure to climate change to the evolution of technology was touched on, and it was fascinating to pick up these optional tidbits. Hell, there's currently a legal battle going on right now in Texas about sexbots, and that issue was reaching a conclusion in the game, where it was slowly becoming normalized and accepted, albeit still restricted. It's easy to see the current state of the issue now evolving into that eventuality. I loved the world-building.
But what I loved most was that every action did really have a consequence. So many games let you 'choose', but the outcome remains the same. There is rarely any weight of your choices on the narrative. It's an illusion of choice. This game managed to not only give you the freedom to make decisions, it played out appropriate consequences. You can let Kara die right off the bat when she's escaping with Alice, and that's the end of her story--no miracle resurrection, no forced redo, no incontinuity. When I played, Carl did *not* die when his son confronts Markus, and I got a really earnest, heart-wrenching scene later when Markus sneaks back to see him before the final stand, questioning what's right or wrong and having a vulnerable moment that really showed how much Markus saw Carl as a father, not just an owner, and that Carl already saw Markus as human and wanted to see those natural human traits of creativity, curiosity and morality nurtured in Markus. I had sort of found Markus' story starting to drag (odd that it started to bore me after the domesticity stopped and the adventure began. XD ), but this framed Markus in a whole new light and gave his actions more depth. It was really wonderful. I saw a playthrough where Carl died, though, and I wondered it that player got to experience the same discovery of depth and doubt in Markus or not.
There is a real replayability to the game. Unlocking every branch, seeing all there is to see, finding all the easter eggs... It is hours upon hours upon hours of new content, not just grinding the same shit for trophies or costumes with no change to the story. When I play other games now that claim to give you choice, they feel woefully flat and underdeveloped. I would love to see more dedication and storyboarding for games that offer different paths to follow, where both your choices AND your actions can minutely and greatly influence the outcome of your story. I can see there was a lot of thought put into every scenario--none of the possibilities for each character end cheaply (even if they die). Each thread is given due merit.
Anyway. It can be campy and sometimes tedious, and a little heavy-handed in the allegories, but I would still maintain it's a game deserving the praise it gets. It has certainly become one of my favourites. And not just because of Connor. (But lbr, he and Hank are certainly highlights in the game. XD )
P.S. I totes respect your differing opinion. You made a solid case for your personal views, and I'm a-okay that you were entertained for very different reasons. XD You do you, boo.
I loved the game, but maybe that's because of the storyline I got.
Conner was the best character in the game in my opinion.
You're not wrong for loving it. The kinds of animation hijinks he's picking on in this video have been mocked to death since as far back as Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy. Beyond that, it's mostly whether you enjoyed the story or not.
Reckoner I feel like it also might have a fair amount to do with the kind of story line you get, because there are so many branching pathways some play throughs you may end up with a pretty bog standard and boring story and, while another's really good one full of interesting twists and plot developments
I really like doing the weird animation goofs in QD games for a good laugh before jumping back into it.
I loved it because it's amazing. QD's best effort to date, and (imo) the second best narrative adventure game yet made.
Bless this video
SuperButterBuns Bless you
I love your videos!
Love your channel and hair!
Buns! :D
Oh snap, Buns is here
Connor's story was definitely the most enjoyable part of the game. Probably the only part where I think Cage may have actually nailed it.
Actually, both the actors for Connor and Hank adlibbed most of it and got repeatedly scolded ny Cage for it. Look it up.
@@just_matt214 hii i'm super late, but where can i find it?
I disagree with the points you're making here. I actually appreciate the quiter moments in Cage's games. They emphasise a sense of place and put you in your characters shoes. I admit there's some wonkiness in some of the interactions, but it is an understandable side effect of the medium (and experimenting with it). I always thought that QD games are the next level of the point and click genre, yes some of them are stumbles on the way (Beyond, unfortunately), but overall I see a lot of potential that has been realized mostly in Detroit.
Bla bla bla Ze Bad Game is bad
@@theoverlordofcats5511 than you have no taste go play fortnite
You literally open lockers. You take the controller and perform the action. Wanna know where that stuff works? VR. But not on a PC or a console.
The game is good because it gives you an actual experience with multiple possibilities and a lot of pretty decent writing but then you have moments where it's so clichée that it's outright ridiculous.
Like, Android-Auschwitz? Really? This was not a story about machines becoming alive, it was about machines that are actually oppressed humans becoming humans. And I liked this game.
I really did. But if you watch enough movies and know what is happening, the way this game pulls its punches can be downright laughable.
Androids are basically slaves because in fact, they DO feel things but the game wants to really hammer home the idea that when my intelligent toaster is logging into my wifi, I am actually forcing an innocent living being to fulfil a meaningless task.
And you can write slowness in videogames SOOOOO much better than to literally have, what should be an interactive movie be broken up with quick-time events and little meaningless tasks. I LIKE stuff like interacting with things. But I DON'T like to perform a mini-game to give someone a handshake when I should be watching a cutscene.
@@Arcaryon I find your statement to be false
@@marbl3d45 Which of the 5 statements did you mean? And why?
Glad I'm not the only one who had a cynical view about how they really try to beat you over the head with "deep philosophical moments that reflect our society"
cloudbloom some people are unironic Brotherhood of Steel fanboys though
fl333r wouldn’t that be a hate for the androids, not an emotionally sensitive response most have with the pacifist androids? Don’t see the connection there.
I didn't really feel. I mean t wad there but it felt more apart of the storyteeling rather than it being shoved down my throat. And I'm usally very cynical when it comes to philosophical tropes in entertainment. But that was just my take on it.
*we live in a society*
Cage has been a horrible writer and game dev for over a decade now. At this point, people shouldn't be surprised. He's also a terrible employer according to French Newspapers.
For me, all that matters in this games is if your choices have consequences. Compared to games like Life is Strange and the Telltale games, David Cage games are the best.
I couldn't care less if choices matter if all the outcomes are poorly written. I'd much prefer a well-written story with artificial, poor "freedom" than a poorly-written story with organic choices and consequences.
Except this game is the only David Cage game where choices have actual consequences. And even so a lot of the choices are bad or not something you would choose. Like in one scene Hank has to shoot one of 2 Conners, one being his friend, and asks them questions. However Conner says that his memory was uploaded to the other Conner implying that asking memory based questions would be useless. Yet the game still forces you to answer these questions and there are a lot of problems with this scene to explain further but I want to focus on the fact that you never actually have a choice on what to do in this scene to convince him you are the real Conner. The big thing I was screaming to do to prove it was you was to do some coin tricks since I thought that was a habit Conner did due to deviancy. Or to point out the numbers on their suit that are used for identification. No I HAVE to answer questions that any police android could answer since they have access to Hanks files at all times because they are essentially police computers. It's stupid and baffling how little we could influence the scene when the consequences are as severe as ending his story right there or continuing it.
GBDupree Like I said, "compared". Heavy focus on "compared".
Gabriel Gomes Cardoso
I mean it's definitely a step in the right direction (the flowchart for the different outcomes is a great addition for sure) but I still feel like its hampered by not being properly thought out at times and I still feel it's something that has been done before anyways, like until dawn having every character able to die or live and the changes that brings. It's not the greatest example but was better than any David Cage game at the time. And I know there was some really old games that did stuff similarly but forget the names. So if the only justification for his games being better than those is because it has a prettier coat of paint attached because of newer technology, then it's only a matter of time before this game loses any importance it brings, since its neither the first one to do it, nor the best one either.
A Way Out.
"What if all our divides could be healed by song?(sarcasm)"
May I reminder you that Christmas truce was a thing during WW1.
Cage's attempts at being "subtle" with this game are all but actually subtle. I could count more times where I caught the subtlety red-handed than times where I couldn't. 1950's American Segregation, slavery, the Bible, the Holocaust, the Underground Railroad. I'd have maybe given Cage the benefit of the doubt if the whole "Androids controlled by humans gain free will and rebel" plot wasn't already used before and this was a first time thing for anybody, not just Cage. Some works of fiction have the same plot I just described and execute them masterfully. Cage should've at least taken notes, but he didn't, especially when people talked to him about this. Mixing plot elements he doesn't know how to write with mother plot elements he doesn't know how to write is a bad idea, but Cage refuses to see it. Cage is not just a bad writer, he's also a reactionary one.
It's pretty evident that all Cage can do is to rip off actually good stuff and make a hodge-podge mess out of it. He is a wanna be filmmaker who tries to sneak his "films" as videogames and lacks any actual directing/writing talent.
Why is it bad to not be subtle? Maybe more people would get the message that way.
Your criticisms don't make any sense. Everything borrows from something. And the situation with the androids fits those tropes, so you can't say they are out of place. If androids were real and capable of emotions, I would expect a similar outcome in real life.
In my opinion, a complete lack of subtlety is bad storytelling. Part of what makes the narrative interesting to the player, is figuring out for ourselves what is going on based on clues we're given. This is especially true if we're supposed to be learning something at the same time our character is. But if it's too too easy to connect the dots, or if the game outright tells us rather than us having to think, it cheapens the experience and makes it kind of boring. No suspense, no mystery, no reveal.
IMO he may just be a "dirty foreginer" that once learns something about the other-lands (USA's) he just lift it ups and put in his shit without any regards to opinions of people who actually know the source material.
Imagine being a "visionary" reding shit about china/japan/far-east/whatever and transforming it for his audience. Obviously it is going to be shit to people that know what he is doing lol
For me, watching it on RUclips is all I need. No complaints about gameplay or the lack of it, just a good story with enjoyable characters.
I'd say "games" like Detroit kinda ride the line between films and actual games, but this experienced does have a very surprising amount of choice and storyline diversions. Yes, the controls are kinda shit and the symbolism is very heavy handed and quite misleading at points, but you cannot ignore the immense amount of freedom the player has when it comes to the paths they wish to take. Just in that regard the game is commendable. It also have some of the best facial animation I have ever seen, as well as at times a very impressive soundtrack and certain very effective cinematic moments.
I'm not saying that you have to enjoy this game, its clearly not for everyone, but you can't just go in expecting it to be like every other experience on the market. Without irritating quicktime events and restrictions on player movements, I believe the RPG elements would suffer tremendously.
It's also nowhere near as bad as Beyond: Two Should. In my opinion.
They used a lot of motion and face capture
Heavy Rain definitely had a lot of pointless faff but to be fair the wake up, get up, take a shower, etc. stuff was meant to tutorialise people on the QTEs that would follow. It's just every single action in the game, big and small, was relegated to that stuff and like your example with the window it just ends up looking weird at times with how segmented every motion is.
The stuff with Connor and Hank sounds great, a game like you describe could be amazing.
I think it would be more helpful if you would elaborate on why the story was awful. I mean, your channel is focused on writing in Games, right?
For example, Markus' storyline was a typical hero's journey through and through. Carl as the mentor Markus as our young hero coming from humble beginnings as a servant to rising from the dead and becoming the leader he needs to be to free his people. Of course, some traditional writing techniques might be a little distorted by the branching narrative of the game, its a bit heavy handed at times and here and there you can find a plothole, _but_ as far as narrative games go, this is pretty much gold standard, especially with the technical complexities behind it.
You address how you don't like this or that, or this is terrible writing, but you never care to go into any detail.
To me, this is a rant of someone who didn't enjoy the game, disguised as a critique.
I agree with this comment too. I didn’t even understand half the video because they didn’t really go into detail or go deeper as to why the game was “terrible.” I actually enjoyed the game, I didn’t play it but still watching other people play it was still enjoyable, to me at least.
This video seemed like someone bashing on the game because it wasn’t their kind of game.
Yes, I'm confused what made him laugh so much while playing?
I find this video by mother's basement to be a good explanation of why the heavyhandedness/overall story of this game was poorly done. ruclips.net/video/GwVERl0OYjc/видео.html&lc=z22jyzfb5xehhhi3iacdp43auagwf3tjx4egcjhi15hw03c010c.1534275283952121
His video talks about the allegory the game tries to take and why it just doesn't work. it's focused a bit more on the "message" of the game, but he does delve into why the story, and the history, doesn't support it.
Other than the point he mentioned about how hilariously you can pace things through screwing with the quicktime events, the gameplay clips he put in make it seem like he's also making fun of how easy it is to make the characters spaz out by jiggling the analog stick? And I mean... sure, but you can do that in a lot of 3D games nowadays, so not really the most relevant criticism of this one.
Literally every 3D game that gives you control of the characters lets you do this. Every. Single. One. Skyrim? Pokemon? Until Dawn? You can jiggle the analog stick and make them do weird animations in all of them. The literal only way to stop this would be to take away the ability to control the characters at all. But go off I guess.
You don't understand, pleb. Cage is pushing the medium forward by avoiding childish stuff like gameplay, and writing B movie plots with immersing QTEs
"What if Resident Evil was just the dialogue segments and cutscenes?"
10/10 An immersive masterpiece about surviving the odds against corporate greed and pandemics. -- IGN
Do you seriously think that Cage's writing is above B-movie quality ? This game has the subtlety of a fucking carnival truck
Ricky Fajar Mr Cage usado probably one of the best writers, no, maybe the best writer in history. His subtleties are probably only equaled by brilliant directors like M Night Shamaladingdong. The only thing that could match his mastery is the dancibg on the streets scene in Spiderman 3. And Knack 2
SHAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN!
At least Shyamalan made the Sixth Sense, and then some arguably good films and some bad ones.
What has Cage ever made but garbage?
Yes! Hank and Connor was so great!! After seeing some of Become Human I decided to watch the entire game but cut out everything that wasn't Connor's story and I really really really really really enjoyed this game, except the ending was just a bit of a flop. Connor and Hank's relationship while fairly cliche was such a fun experience and had some legitimately good writing at points and throughout some really solid presentations by the actors. Seeing the android and human situation through the eyes of Connor as this more high tech android who seems to learn and develop feelings throughout the course of the game and seeings his relationship with Hank develop as they encounter deviants and other androids in their investigation was sooo awesome! It's so much better when he's focusing on smaller things like relationships rather than turning it into this massive big picture thing like with Markus becoming MLK/Jesus
The interesting/sad thing to me, is even though I liked the Connor/Hank moments, I actually want more "big picture" stories in games. I would legit love to see a game with a well-done revolution led by an oppressed group, set in a near-future cyberpunk U.S. I was so excited, so looking forward to D:BH for this reason...
But then they totally missed the mark. Both people who loved the game and hated it seem to find Markus's storyline (especially late game savior/cult leader/etc Markus) the worst part.
Thats why Violent Markus > Peaceful Markus.
What's really sad though is that everything you said you liked about Conner's story was stuff added in by the actors for Conner and Hank who fought against David Cage every step to keep it in. That's why the scenes are so compelling, because the actors really invested in the role and added complexity and nuance that David Cage didn't want. This is why the other characters who followed the direction more accurately felt like they were neither human nor robot and were fairly hollow except for a few points. This is also why Conner's interactions are so good while his overall narrative, especially the ending, are not so good, because they had no control over those segments.
GBDupree
Sauce?
The actor for Conner is currently streaming a playthrough of the game and has admitted to this a few times, though I heard there was also someone else (Possibly Hank's actor [who is the voice of Mr. Krabs and a prominent actor]) who mentioned this too but I'm not sure of that. But yeah, he is streaming it on twitch and has given some neat insight to the game, like how David asked him what his favorite line in the game was and the actor (Something Dechard, I forgot his name) said it was "I like Dogs" which made David Cage mad which he thought was funny. I assume its because David expected some Profound sounding dialog to be his favorite, but he liked that one because it is lighthearted and fun and adds some character and humanity to Conner, since an android shouldn't "like" dogs.
I don't require subtlety to enjoy a story. Why wouldn't the connection between the discrimination against humanlike androids and humans be obvious? What would be the benefit of making it enigmatic? I played through the game this weekend, and I loved it. I don't see its obviousness as a failure of story telling. I would have been more annoyed if it had tried to pretend the situation wasn't an obvious replaying of past discriminations. I appreciated having to do all the little things in the game. It was a consistent reminder that the androids were just living lives the way humans are. They had to engage in the tedious actions we all do just to get through our days. My only actual gripe with the game was that some funny moments happened when I was on a timer and couldn't stop to enjoy them. For example, Hank talking to the first purchased Traci. I want to see that damn it. Oh, that, and the camera was getting on my last nerve.
The connections between android discrimination and black discrimination are not done well. The lack of subtlety only highlights the mistakes. Yes, it make sense to make the comparison, but the concept is not the problem. The execution is.
... I like the game. Simply due to the branching storyline (cough, Telltale) and the lack of REALLY shitty Cageisms. even though it REALLY doesn't say anything new to the point it could be considered a Blade Runner spin-off, i don't mind it.
Im not sure if you know this but heavy rain was an innovator in the branching stories
I do appreciate the effort that went into this game. there's so many different pathways and your choices genuinely matter, also the motion capture and acting is excellent, it's a very technically impressive game.
8 minutes of my life wasted. I was at least hoping for something more interesting than "I just don't like this game" covered up in pretentious words.
I think it's justified just because of the Markus storyline. It is too fucking goofy and symbolic. I find the other two storylines really fun tho.
Id totally be down for a Connor & Hank spin off but yeah the Markus storyline i feel just happened too quickly and and felt rushed, in the space of 5 days he went from normal android to cyber Jesus , but really its up to you to decided how heavy handed it is. Choose to fight back and rebel and have Connor snap Markus' neck and send Kara to a concentration camp and its a different narrative with a different meaning. Thats why I enjoyed it anyway, you get what you want from it.
The Markus storyline was terrible, hackneyed writing, and because of it's importance to the rest of the story, it causes the overall narrative to fall apart. It would've been one thing if Markus had joined Jericho when they were already this band of rogues basically acting as a terrorist unit, and he was like, "Hey, maybe we could do more than just write graffiti and stick it to the man? What if we organized?" But no, they were hiding in an abandoned freighter, and then Markus rolled up and said, "We should totally revolt," and after like 8 seconds of protesting, everyone fell behind him like...well, machines.
Kara's story was pretty good (barring the house of horrors bullshit) until the reveal that Alice is an android. That literally ruined the entire premise of her character, that she was an android who loved a human child because she was a life that deserved protecting. She loved Alice for who she was, not WHAT she was. Being an android completely undermines that concept.
Connor's story was pretty legit, though. I want a Connor/Hank spinoff, for real.
SilverKnight
How did the revel ruin the storyline? She didn't even realize that Alice was android until a little bit into the third act, or at the very least subconsciously blocked that information out of her head. So she still loved Alice for WHO she was, not what she was. Besides I feel like it makes the story a little better. Throughout most of Kara's story, the player has to go many dangerous scenarios that risk the lives of both Kara and other people(even getting said people killed) in order to protect what they thought was a little human girl. So when it turns out that Alice is just a machine designed to look and act like a girl, the game asks you does that matter? Does Alice being a android make all the sacrifices that Kara made throughout the story pointless? Is saving her still worth it since she'll never grow up and might always face prejudice?
Also as much as I personally liked the 2nd half of Conner's story, I would agree that the first half was pretty bad since not only was it the most linear part of the game, but I also really hated how rushed it felt espceially when they go from "on the verge of death with little to no supplies at all" to "mission impossible team that can easily break into a giant news station". It really felt like they had to cut an entire section of his story from the game in order make the game on time.
I am guessing the RUclipsr is a casual action gamer who can't like a game that has no combat section.
I am gonna bet this game is story-wise a bigger masterpiece than God of War.
And there are some times when you just want a good story, rather than good combat. This game is perfect for those times.
I honestly have to disagree with many things stated in this video. I have always been a fan of David Cage's work (maybe less so Beyond: Two Souls since I was disappointed by it) but, despite it's sillyness, Heavy Rain was the game that really blew my mind back when I discovered it. Detroit is a much more polished and in many ways better written game. I finished it recently and honestly didn't mind the slow start and rather enjoy controlling my character through many "mundane" actions. I never felt like the game went on and on when the point already got across. It always had me thinking and never bored.
Depending on which choices you make through the game it also has different morals or lessons I suppose you could take away from it. From the general theme of slavery and fighting against the system (which are very standard but nonetheless well executed in my opinion) to the question what being human actually means. Especially the Kara arc made me think a lot about my values as a human and the game allowed me to project that onto her. It doesn't at all feel like a trainwreck to me. There are few games that actively involve me and consume my thoughts even when I'm not playing them but D:BH definitely did. I am not at all saying it is perfect. But then again, no game that I consider one of my favorites is anywhere close to perfect.
No matter how silly, I still feel Detroit was made with a passion. It is definitely not for everyone. But something being for everyone honestly just makes it quite boring.
I'm sorry I had to ramble a bit here but some of the comments on the game in the video actually had me shaking my head in disbelief. It sounds like the game is objectively a trainwreck that can only be enjoyed by laughing at how silly it is. Without meaning disrespect, I have to disagree with that.
Zenixxify No no no, I thank you for your rambling. I have the exact same thoughts as you, especially regarding Kara. Like for real, I had an existential crisis halfway through the game, and I had no idea who I wanted to be. I never thought that a game could even do that.
I actually agree with this. Sure the game isn’t really for everyone, but if you think about it, a game made for everyone could become a bit of a boring game. There are other games for people who’d rather get through with the small actions and not have to wait for the real action that gets the game and story going. Honestly though, I didn’t think the small actions didn’t matter. It showed us the purpose of the androids and how people treat them more as slaves rather than valuable machines that could do much more. Also, it wasn’t just for the purpose, having a game that just goes through with the actions not having you do anything and just watch is actually quite boring and bland.
I don’t think the storyline was bad either, sure Markus’ story could of been better but it did have a big part in the whole storyline. But I do think Connor’s part of the story was better than all the others.
That’s all I’m gonna say tbh, I could go on and on but I’d rather not and if I did I’d probably repeat so many things like I usually do. This probably didn’t make any sense either but hopefully it does?? I read through it and it sorta made sense to me lol. I’m gonna stop and go now, bye!
I completely agree with this. Even though I didn't play the game I still enjoyed the story and playthrough. I agree in some cases that maybe Markus' story could've been better but he's still my favorite character (in my opinion) and I understood how his storyline kind of reflected on today and racism. I love all of their arcs and like you said, the game isn't perfect, but in reality most games aren't. Nothing really is perfect.
@@sixtyducksinatrenchcoat981 yes
David Cage's games are terrible but I'm glad he makes them. For as much as he misses the mark, he is genuinely pushing for compelling narrative experiences in videogames. There's a lot of value in that. Especially when the current trends in the industry are crooked microtransaction business models and battle royale games.
He doesn't push for "compelling narrative experiences" in videogames. Instead he wants to translate his mediocre movie ideas into videogame form with as less game as possible because people still consider the videogame medium one where stories aren't that important.
Mac Mcskullface I never said he was the only one or that he's good at it. I specifically said his games are terrible but he is a successful high profile figure in the industry. A lot of people genuinely like his games too. Whether he's good at it or not isn't the point of what I'm saying. He's ultimately proved that there's an interest in these kinds of games and influenced the genre.
0utta S1TE He does try. He's good at making strong, individual scenes like the diner sequence in Indigo Prophecy or the pinky scene in Heavy Rain. I think the stuff with Connor and Hank is pretty good too. It's when he moves on to the big picture that his games fall apart. He just cannot resist cramming as much stupid shit in there as possible. If his stories were more focused and gameplay revolved around solving puzzles instead of doing menial tasks, his games could actually be good.
It's unearned credit. People like Yoko Taro and Toshiriho Nagoshi have done much more to push gaming as a storytelling device through genuinely incredible stuff like NIER and ther Yakuza series. And they do a much better job than Cage ever could because they're not ashamed of making videogames with actual gameplay. A single cutscene from any of the Yakuza games has far more craft and emotional weight than anything David Cage has ever created in his life. And then you get actual gameplay with health bars and battle systems on top of it.
David Cage is too busy trying to make games "mature" by becoming glorified movies to ever become a true great auteur.
I'd say Cage has to play through the entirety of NIER Automata to see how storytelling in gaming can work, but he's way too idiotic to understand that game. He'd rather just write some dumb schlock about androids finding humanity and suffering from magical racism instead.
I like to think people take his bland writing as a challenge to make better games.
I liked it, Im not even a console gamer. I bought the deluxe edition, and didnt regret the purchase at all. Its also a great 'party' game IMO, players with different skills playing different chapters will result in interesting storylines, things you didnt explore before. But I get your criticism on certain things, I'll give you a like, but I think you are being too harsh on a piece of work that had 6 years of dedicated development and delivered immensely in the end. I mean you can see that love went into this work, thats hard to come by these days. Look at Star Citizen on PC, I regret every penny I ever put into that project.
YEAH Star Citizen is a joke
It's definitely the best thing David Cage has ever written. But it's still a David Cage game. The heavy handed racism allegories and the games resolute refusal to explore any view other than androids are absolutely people keep it from being as good as it could be. Connor and Hank really were the only story that was interesting, Kara and Markus were both trite, predictable and tropey.
The sheer number of choice/plot permutations is very admirable though.
This was the comment I was looking for.
You honestly have to love the fact that - no matter what a person's opinion of D:BH (as a game in its entirety) is; everyone agrees that Connor and Hank have an awesome dynamic and it would be great if we got a story revolving their characters.
Kudos to Clancy Brown and Bryan DeChart for bringing this buddy cop duo to life.
I personally quite liked Markus' storyline and how it keeps pushing you to become violent if you play pacifist and it challenges you to stick with your ideals. Also, a lot of the moments in it were incredibly powerful, such as the march, changing the park and the finale. I haven't played or seen how things turn out if you decide to protest violently but I assume it isn't too different.
I will agree that the Nazi symbolism is very heavyhanded. I haven't seen anyone comment on how androids seem to have to wear the armbands and a triangle symbol, again mirroring the treatment of Jewish people in nazi Germany. The same goes for the civil rights movement symbolism.
Moggy Johnny it probably has to do with all humanity and how we feel the need to push different kinds of people down because some of us are “better”
Detroit become human is one of if not my all time favorite game. It is beautifully Made, beautifully scripted, with one of the best stories I’ve ever seen. Ever character got me to love them in some way even if they were kind of boring. I genuinely fucking cried when Carl dies, and Marcus calls out “DAD!” This game made me feel so many different emotions. It made me sad, it made me inspired, it made me happy, exited, angry, tense, and much more. Which is what good art does, is make you feel. Make you feel these kinds of emotions. In the end I loved Detroit become human. I loved it so goddamn much
Honestly, I agree. I really did love DBH. No matter what people try to say, you can't convince me that this was a bad game
Very interesting to see your point of view on the game! I have gotten obsessed with the game so your words did hurt me a little bit at first, but at the same time, they kinda opened my eyes. The story and concept would maybe work better for a movie instead of a game. I mean, they even hired a cinematographer to make all scenes seem even more cinematic.
I still adore the game but I think that the medium it communicates through truly wasn't used to its full potential.
MogamiArt That is the thing, if he proposed this as a movie idea he would've been laughed out of the room because the story component in movies is considered vital whereas for videogames is considered a somewhat optional aspect which allows a lot of leniency in its criticism and often this leniency in many ways is justified for the story often translates into gameplay but David Cage wants to make interactive (at least enough to be considered a videogame) movies.
Ah, I see, thanks for informing me! Well, he's lucky to be able to create games in this day and age because video game graphics are so incredibly advanced currently.
MogamiArt But he wastes everything else, it is just eye candy and the other aspects are simply side dishes. Videogames are a polyedric form of art which covers multiple aspects that is why more often than not they are a work of multiple people rather than a single individual because it encompasses so much.
Yeah, I agree! Also: what makes games so special really is the interactive component, or in layman's terms: the gameplay. But if your gameplay mostly consists of walking, talking and looking at stuff, that's not really engaging. If the story/writing, characters and presentation weren't as good as they are, the game would probably suffer a lot from it.
I loved that it played out like a movie I directed the course of. But I think that also killed the huge cache of replayable content for me. After my first time through I became very invested in the story I'd worked to create. At a certain point, it seemed strange to me to go back and undo some of those things. I played through twice, though I couldn't get into a third go because it felt like the story wasn't genuine? If that makes any sense.
Not to mention, my first time through was bittersweet. I lost some people. The second time I fixed my mistakes to make a more ideal happy ending. I couldn't have done any better on my third play, and I very likely would have lost some people I'd previously saved. It just didn't seem fun to me.
I disagree, but oh well.
So do I, but maybe we are just fanboys
@@somebody4877 maybe you are
@@ducktube7473 jip, I'm not even gonna trie to argue lol
@@somebody4877 Good for y just writing that y disagree with something is easier than argue a point. lol
@@ducktube7473 jip, I've learned that arguing with someone on the internet is a waste of time, time being a, ummm precious commodity
(Btw if u get that reference, u r an OG)
Im at the two minute mark and i've gone into the comments. The androids are an allegory for racism and its a bad allegory is wrong. The allegory would be bad if it was an allegory. The android question is a question facing us within the next two decades. This game is more a prediction than anything else.
moving on. Something that makes this game amazing is that it gives players a true choice. Hell, even winning or losing a fight can change the story. Although the broad strokes are mostly the same if everyone lives, the specifics will always effect what comes next which is something I've not seen a game do before. There are entire levels (or versions of levels) That I missed on my first playthrough.
Thirdly. I believe that the imagery, especially the religious imagery if you take the 'Peaceful Markus Path', is a spoonful too much for me.
I believe that this game is less about all the underlying themes of unity and racism and fear, and more about what is literally to come. What will happen in the future is the true question behind my love for this game.
The mechanics may be boring from time to time but it never gets more mundane then telltale's walking dead or Life is Strange, or Night in the Woods for that matter. If you look at the mechanics like moving stuff and performing actions as a computer literally following its function then they become more compelling.
In the game (Spoilers here on out) There is a constant reference to a christ like android called RA9. This android could be Markus or Connor or Both but, I believe it is neither. RA9 is the player. The player is a strain of evolved programming that influences the three protagonists and maybe more, which would explain why most of the androids at Jericho will follow Markus' every word if you get that far.
Am I defending this game? Yes.
If you loved any telltale game that follows the Walking Dead Formula then this game should be a slam hit. If you liked Night in the Woods, Life is Strange, or any other game with bad mechanics and a great story than this game should be in your favor. I personally hate all those games because they don't do the two things Detroit excels at: be literal, and make choice matter
Arteriop ! You make excellent points. I think this game is really good too!
The androids are an allegory for racism. The *actual* "Android question" is not an *Android* question, but an AI question. The only purpose of making the form of an AI humanlike in a story is to trigger empathy and challenge our desire to dehumanize others, i.e. make an allegory to racism. Hence, it's a racism allegory. You don't need to depict "androids" to tackle the AI problem. Q.E.D.
This. This comment. Detroit: Become Human does what other choice games didn't do: Actually make choices matter.
I found Life is Strange to be mechanically partially VERY GOOD. It has one central mechanic, dialog trees with time-rewinding, and they clearly went above and beyond to make that mechanic work well. Whether its story is so great? Ehhhh, it's not bad, it works, but i'm not all too sure i'd call it a masterpiece.
But then, i hate Walking Dead (railroading doesn't have to be bad, but this game series is an example of how not to do it) and like Dreamfall Chapters.
Because you don’t like these types of games doesn’t make them bad. You actually have no argument except mechanics being repetitive and you finding the storyline silly.
The gameplay and story is..... all this game Has. So, since he had serious critisizisms of those things, he shared them, and that because of these flaws he views the game as being "bad". You don't have to also think it's bad or have the same issues with it. But if he can't call/consider the game "bad" because he has serious issues with its two DEFINING elements, then when CAN he? When could ANYONE?
Sincerity Nature He’s arguing the game can’t be enjoyed for its intended purposes because the mechanics and the writing. Plenty of people were able to enjoy it for everything he didn’t like about it. So sure, he can say it’s bad, but it’s not a bad game in general - it’s just a bad game to him. If he missed the point or if the point missed him, it’s still just his POV.
Yeah. The guy is biased and is just rambling. I don't like QTE / Visual novel games but I can appreciate Detroit Become Human's story.
The game is no bad, stop nitpicking. You gotta give him some credit for doing single player narrative game with high product value.
"Nothing interesting at all from nier automata."
And yet you think Detroit does interesting things. Are you from Bizarro World? Opposite Land? Upside-Down City?
/// Imperial Thought Of The Day ///
Never Forgive.
Never Forget.
Ono
He did. If you watched his video...
Ono, Criticizing glaring flaws in the game is not "nitpicking," and telling people to settle for mediocrity in a product they paid for isn't fair and sets back the entire industry. You're free to have enjoyed the game and to see the good things about it, but acting like no criticism is valid just because "well at least it's not total shit" is a ridiculously low bar that gets no one anywhere and isn't even a real defense. You're acting like this is the equivalent of giving a kid a gold star on his test because "he tried."
I don't get why people who hate Cage keep playing Cage games to complain that it's a Cage game. You either like it or you don't. Who really has the problem if you feel the need to seek out to destroy because he doesn't make another God of War?
This game is far from a train wreck. Perfect, no - but it isn't at all a disaster. It's also the best Cage has done to date and gave us one of the best pairings ever with Connor and Hank.
Also don't get the jab at the singing - a beautiful scene totally reminiscent of MLK's peaceful protests in the past (and who spoke in Detroit of segregation).
It's a review dummy, he had to play it to review it. And he said that he actually had hopes for this game with the trailer, but it turned out to be another "interactive movie" by David Cage.
and the fact he didnt see that from the trailer tells me he is a moron. i mean come the fuck on the trailer HAD the gameplay in it but i shouldn't expect much from a guy who can only see the race angle in the game and thought ff15 was anything even remotely good.
Here's your answer. I don't play it, hell, I don't buy it. I watch someone on RUclips play it because I'm not missing out on any gameplay.
Also, reminiscent? Or just downrightcopying since this is pretty much just an unsubtle allegory to racism?
Androids having emotions or questioning humanity? Many games have done that. Automata came out a year ago, and SOMA came out in 2015 and both did it without being in your face and was backed up with gameplay.
No one would hate David Cage (or less, rather) if he wasn't such a pretentious ass about his games acting like they're breaking game norm when they're just done to death concepts hiding behind pretty graphics and choose your own adventure that fools casuals into thinking this is next level art.
Yeah so if its priced at 80$ and the "make your own story" game is mostly just a cinematic stretch with tedius actions and not much beyond how you do something vs making your actual story.. Think i jist saved myself 80 bucks. Might revisit when its on sale
FlymanMS he is just sharing his opinion, no need to call him a dummy. And he does kind of have a point.
I thought Detroit was amazing, but I went through the entire game with the idea of truly immersing myself in the story. I hit every command prompt smoothly and chose consistent dialogue options for my separate characters on my first play through. I think those that went into the game from any other angle just fundamentally got less out of it.
I don't mind Cage's games or the mundane tasks you have to do with them. I've always seen them as a way to connect player with character and that for me made some things more impactful, like *spoiler* you basically open the fridge the same way you hack away your finger in HR *spoiler*. His games are really abusable and easy to laugh at if you choose to do so.
And it's also clear that while Cage was inspired by the reception of his short he only vaguely wanted to follow it in full fledged game and a criticism that "well the 30 hour game, a Quantic Dream game no less doesn't the follow the same narrative structure that a seven minute short that i liked does" is a shallow move to allow yourself to hate what you want to hate. I mean you can choose to do so but you didn't even try to understand what Cage was going for and your standards don't account for a lot of great stuff, for example what Lynch does.
You had about a dozen of ways of cutting your finger off in HR so your description hasn't told me much lol.
The only reason the connor/hank relationship is so strong is because both actors improvised a lot.
The only thing that actually sucks about the story is the cheap plot twists (Spoilers)
1-Alice being an android which makes you kinda hate her for letting you worry about feeding her the whole time
2-Amanda saying that ALL OF THIS WAS ACCORDING TO PLAN (regardless of what happens) meaning that markus was just controlled by cyberlife the whole time. and connor was another tool
3-Kamski having planned deviation as a way to take over cyberlife. meaning that it was just a program all along and they can take control over the androids again
another thing is that not all androids are deviants which suggests deviation IS merely a virus
and not a single deviant disagrees with another or thinks any different than Markus which really just makes them robots
the game is great but these things just leave a bad aftertaste..
I often wonder how writing process goes at Quantic Dream. Surely, they gotta have team of writers, surely, they gotta have editors, surely, they have to take input from game designers and playtesters, so how do they manage to miss so many marks, again and again? How can they have fairly interesting idea but execute them so poorly?
Nebularium i think Cage wrote the plots and then uncredited interns and the actors handled the actually good character writing.
Actually this time he had a team of writers working with him. Of course they're uncredited but there's interviews with a couple of them.
Cage writes it....but since he has never struggled with anything, he ends up just lazily trying to hijack other peoples struggles to try and give his own work meaning.
"Write what you know" isn't just a fun saying.
Ivory Oasis, I agree I think that's one reason so much of the writing is terrible. And, incidentally, I think that's why so many people like Connor. As the "white dude" playable android, he's the closest of the three to Cage, so Cage was more effective at writing him as a full believable character.
I agree with you but not the "white dude" part, I just think he naturally writes like an android trying to understand humans and that vibbe flows into connor's character and his arc.
Nah. At least the story he tells with Detroit is a good story. Heavy-handed or not, it's an important story. You have to think of the average gamer. Children understand heavyhanded. Great story, great game. Players feel like their choices matter, and they do.
ThunderPaladin
Okay, first off: none of David Cage's games are targeted at kids. His games have serial killers, rape, sex, abuse, murder, racism, and death.
And secondly, what a cop out excuse. This is like the "it's a kids show, so it's okay if it's bad" argument. It's a lazy defense. There are good pieces of media out there for kids, that's well written and nuanced. Like Avatar the Last Airbender.
You're mistaking bad for basic. This reviewer comes down hard on the game for using well known tropes and stereotypes for characters and story. To younger audiences that's not necessarily bad, just basic. Huge difference.
Kartik Punna
How can Todd afford a $7k androd?
Why doesnt he report Alice missing since she's an android?
How does no one recognize Kara and Alice?
Why didnt Carl stick up for Markus after he pushes Leo to the police, and lets him get shot and thrown into the junkyard?
There are probably more.
I like the game, but it's riddled with plotholes.
Candice Candddiiceee Dude Kara’s price tag is dirt cheap. Go and read the magazine at Rose’s house, she is priced at $899. No joke, she’s a six year old model. Hell, the YK500 (Alice) was built only a year after Kara, meaning it was possible for Todd to purchase both androids. Something was going through Todd’s mind so there’s probably something going on there. I don’t know because I’ve never met an abusive, or mentally ill person in my life. Alice is legit stated as the most customisable model of android in the game, it’s damn near impossible to see her as an android unless you already know. Kara isn’t as hard, which is why she went through the trouble of cutting her hair, altering her hair colour, and changed her clothes. I honestly don’t know how much more incognito you can get. Carl didn’t stick up for Markus because he was, I don’t know, worried about his ACTUAL son?? Who could actually be dead??
Keep at it with the plot holes man.
Kartik Punna
Alice looks exactlt like the android kara saw when she realized that alice wasnt human, and another kara model can be seen in the game. wouldnt police/border check be able to recognize them? their facial features didnt change, and their faces are pretty distinct.
Carl treats Markus as if he was his own son, and tells him to go since police will blame it on him and possibly deactivate him. But why couldnt he just have uttered a few words to police when they showed up, like "it wasnt his fault"?
Connor and Hank are what made me really like this game. To be honest, I only ever played it to explore their relationship. I found myself rushing through Kara's and ESPECIALLY Markus's story just to get back to Connor and Hank. So... I guess the game was great for 1/3 of it.
I'm failing to see the point of this video. So Detroit is a bad game because...you have to physically perform minute actions like picking up a bag and putting it down? Have you never played a David Cage game? That's a pretty hallmark thing to do in his games, and while there could definitely been certain things not left to the player to perform because they are minute, I'm failing to see how they actually bring a game down, not the least of which because this is already a common convention.
As for the repeated claims that this game basically doesn't live up to its message, that's a pretty meaningless thing to analyze since it's ultimately subjective. For anything "with a point", you'll only ever have two camps: those deeply affected, and those not at all affected. I mean, look at the film 'Get Out'. It was a national sensation because of its 'message' about liberal hypocrisy regarding race. The thing is, while that resonated a lot with many black people who could nod their head in agreement, that they know what that's like, and that many white people suddenly felt "woke" because of how inattentive they were to their own racial blind spots, a lot of us were already well aware of liberal hypocrisy regarding race, so the impact of the 'message' got lost because it was attempting to teach those of us who were already aware.
This game tackles many futuristic subjects, all of which you ignored. Climate change, for example, is in almost every newspaper you can click on in the game, talking about how extinction has lead to android animals and food decimation. Economy is frequent, with a common fear of today (2018) having already become realized as automation continues - as it does - to unemploy workers. There is also a common thread about the US vs Russia - again, entirely timely - regarding land acquisition and risking war, along with other nations rising up. Finally, of course, you have the general plot of the game, which is not just about how we would deal with sentient, feeling androids, but about how we, as human beings, are almost entirely married to technology, that we basically want to invest in the next great thing before realizing how we, sociologically, interact with it. Yes, if you're an emotionless douche bag you could play the game however you want, but the point is that, much like how a horror game asks you to play on edge or a shooter asks you to be Rambo, this game asks you not just to think about the android characters, but about what your choices and way of playing suggest about you.
As somebody who just got their MFA in writing this spring, it's clear you're simply not qualified to have a channel discussing writing when you eschew objective analysis of all relevant factors for a purely subjective rant about, "It's David Cage; he's heavy-handed and wants to shove his points down your throat." Well, then call this video what it is; a rant. If you're going to discuss the writing, then discuss all of it; your goal as a critic is to understand what they were trying to achieve and see where they got. Your assessment was that, basically, you could 100% of a product by only looking at 50% of it.
Try again when you become more of an academic and less of a rando on RUclips
gottem
This is easily one of the best, most articulate, most well though-out counter arguments I have seen in a youtube comment section.
10/10 would read again
CyranoForever101 damn he better tag this comment
So he makes one video you don't like and that makes him unqualified to criticize games? You've completely disregarded the rest of his work for no good reason just because you have a piece of paper saying you know how to write. What exactly makes you qualified in critiquing video games? What body of work do you have that gives you authority in declaring Hamish unfit to express his thoughts on a David Cage game?
Apparently everyone that plays a David Cage game automatically become top tier professional writers and story tellers, who all have the capability and power to make a perfect game of which will have absolutely no flaws. Because obviously these guys aren’t sad gamers who have no purpose in life other than criticize others works.
Mythrintia Apparently you've never played Megaman X.
Watch me, fucko. I'll be back in 7 months.
I LOOKED FOR A COMMENT LIKE THIS AND I FINALLY FOUND ONE. You are 100% right and I love you for pointing this out. It's a very good game and not just obviously shitty because some sad pricks decided to comb out all the flaws it has just because it was written by Cage. Sure, it's not perfect but which game is?
Honestly most of the people i seen that hate this game are nit picking really hard because it’s a david cage game, love it or hate it it’s still a decent game, but most people are making it out to be an utter pile of shit and anyone who enjoys it has never read a good book or watched a goos movie.
I love this game actually. Markus was kind of cringy, but overall it was a good story. Plus, you don't find many other games that have so many endings.
Does this guy have a personal vendetta against the writer or something? This game had very likeable characters and a ton of potential paths to take.
That doesn't make a good game.
The overly cliché story and the very problematic comparisons between robo racism and segregation, slavery and the Holocaust are what make this game indigest.
The fact that people were able to guess what they would find in Detroit shows this. Look at the bingos people made. Cage is such a cliché writer people KNOW what he puts in every single game he makes.
And you can't ignore how abusive Cage is to his co-workers, how arrogant he can be, and how creepy he is (he modelled an nude model of Ellen Page without her consent, when it wasn't even in the game).
I noticed a similarity, wherein Detroit Become Human, Marcus the robot wakes up in a muddy pit and gets a convenient trench coat. Then in the movie "Terminator: Salvation", Marcus wakes up in a muddy pit and gets a convenient trench coat.
Eclipseslayer98 I noticed a similarity too: in Detroit: Become Human, androids rebelling against their programming/subserviency to humans are called Deviants and there are special androids designed to capture these Deviant androids(Connor).
In Megaman X, reploids(replicated androids)rebelling against subserviency to humans(they're not programmed to follow a certain set of directives)are called Mavericks and there are special reploids designed to capture these Maverick reploids(X and Zero. Hell, there's an entire organization of 'Maverick Hunters').
I suppose similarities could also be drawn from the Blade Runner and its replicants.
Eclipseslayer98 Right down to the references LOL
Maybe instead of thinking what the bigger picture should be, you just role play each character as you control them. That's what I did and had a blast where the story led me! I tried to be peaceful with Markus, but during the extermination, I fought back. I made Cara a thief to survive, and enjoyed that story so much! I had Connor maintain the theme he presented since the beginning. He was a machine that protected humans through and through. There was an epic clash, and in the end, humanity survived because Connor kept pursuing his mission, Marcus nuked Detroit because he was driven to that extreme, and all my Cara characters died because my Cara was selfish and unwilling to sacrifice herself for others. My Cara let everyone that put her in danger die, and she died for it at the end. It was poetic. I think you payed the game wrong man.
I actually really enjoyed the meaningless tasks and pressing a button to stand up and pressing a button to wipe your ass. I don't have a ps4 so I can't play this but after watching the gameplay I went out and bought heavy rain and loved it. It's unique and makes you feel like you are that character by doin these small things instead of just watching it happen
Markus' and Kara's storylines are kind of boring. Connor and Hank were the main characters in my eyes.Their friendship really touched me and I started crying in the after credits scene where Connor and Hank hug.
I went in expecting it to be cheesy, and that's pretty much what I got. Still, as pointed in the video, there are some pretty genuinely solid moments. Connor could have easily have been the sole protagonist with Hank as his support, and their buddy-cop dynamic is pretty refreshing given Connor's personality that is able to have the subtle touches of humanity like Data from Star Trek, and the comical misunderstanding of Kryten from Red Dwarf. Shame that the likes of Markus really suffer from the ham-fisted imagery and unsubtle parallels. It feels like if they had just removed a few scenes and changed some lines, the whole android revolution could have come off more naturally.
I feel like i need to play the game to understand what ur getting here.
Nothing talked about made me say “ wow yea, this is bad”
Maybe if i ever play it, I’ll understand lol
GrimReefer811 It isn't bad. And the comparisons are legit given the history of the city, really. Though I agree Connor and Hank are 100% the best thing about the entire game - so much so I'd like to see a game with only them.
Play Deus Ex: Human Revolution and Detroit back to back, then come back and update us.
The 3rd Runner or u could just tell me and save us all the time?
The whole point is im not seeing how its bad from this video, not having played the game.
So telling me to “go play it” is kinda pointless
GrimReefer811 it's easy, really: Detroit sets out to tackle a story thread literally every single entertainment medium (a shitton of games included) have already fully fleshed out to the point of making common knowledge how this kind of story works. It adds nothing to the table outside of some really hamfisted racism analogies, and if you're not in it to laugh at it all you're gonna get is shiny graphics and good music trying to save a forgettable experience. If you haven't, playing Deus Ex: Human Revolution (or hell, even Mankind Divided) will basically give you the same experience minus the mediocre-to-average writing, while another lil' game called Nier: Automata will completely debunk everything Cage sets out to say in this game.
Yeah, my first suggestion was kinda dumb, hope this helps!
lol yea, thats way better. now i can see the bigger picture of the argument. im not 100% sure i agree though. just because a story doesn't add anything new to a thematic topic, doesnt make it bad or mean it shouldnt exist. i dont think there's anything inherently wrong with using a familiar space to tell a story. unless the story is actually just crap...in which case, yea i dont care lol.
interesting that you brought up nier. in what way would you say nier "debunks" detroit? nier is fucking awesome, so i already suspected it had the better robot story lol
If no one knew David Cage wrote Detroit, everyone would think that it's a masterpiece.
truth
Uh . . . No? I thought After Earth was a terrible film, and I only recently found out M. Night Shyamalan made it. I get what you mean - with David Cage's "games" and his reputation - but the principle here is still fuck-y.
Lmao no. Shit is still shit, regardless of who shat it out.
Yeah no. I don't know if the game is that bad or not, but regardless of whether Cage wrote it, seeing the androids at the back of the bus would still have made me pause the game because I was laughing so hard.
The funny thing is that most people like it because of Connor and Hank which are the most improvised characters dialogue-wise meaning that majority of what people like in this game shouldn't be there in the first place if Cage stood up more for his own.
And also majority of people dislike Markus' campaign because it's like 99% of social and political commentary. And a bad one on top of that because you can't use androids for racial allegory.
The point of racism is thinking that the other race is inferior based on the fake science facts (saying that the other race is completely different on the inside although that's wrong) and the outside appearance. And that's where this game fails. Because androids look just like people on the outside but they are completely different on the inside.
We get it you hate David Cage🙄 We got that the last video you made about him.
i think the thing that made connor and hank's relationship so amazing was the actors themselves. bryan dechart, who plays connor, has talked about how they improved a lot of their actions. the chemistry between the two actors was so pure, it's really what made their characters so great...
I agree that the imagery can at times be heavy handed definitely, and some of the writing is lazy, for example the fact by the end Markus can somehow telepathically concert androids, the very forced romance of him and North, and yes the camps. I also think personally that Connor is an incredible character, and the Hank/Connor dynamic is even more incredible, so much so that it makes Kara and Markus somewhat dull to play; you just want to get to Connor! About the tedious “drop bag, move bag, open window” etc. gameplay, it is problematic later in the game where the tension is arguably ruined, but I think it is actually very effective at the start, especially in Kara’s play, as imo it demonstrates the menial, controlled life of androids before the revolution. The player feels the tediousness of the gameplay, of washing the dishes and collecting the laundry etc. and this gives us a very unique way of becoming the “actor” as you described, rather than the “director”, or at least how I experienced it. Another problem I have with the writing specifically is again laziness or rather failure to execute an arc; with Connor becoming a deviant or remaining a machine. You spend the whole game contributing to Connor’s deviancy, slowly but surely creating the “software instability”, making the player believe that there will be some climax for Connor, but this doesn’t really happen in my opinion, we have the confrontation of Markus who convinced him to be deviant, but I think this falls a bit flat. I wish there had been a moment of inner conflict in Connor’s character, maybe a breakdown with more intense imagery of breaking his programme, demonstrating the difficulty Connor has in betraying Amanda and betraying everything he knows to be true. Maybe even a breakdown to Hank, which I genuinely anticipated and expected after you don’t shoot Chloe at Kamski’s and Connor shares his difficulty with looking into her eyes and not being able to prioritise the mission. Maybe even a scene in the AI world of Amanda where deviancy leaks in and you find Hank on one side and Amanda on the other or something like that, something bigger than a single X or O in one moment. As Connor is the most conflicted character in the whole game, this bit was lacklustre for me. Great video :)
I kind of agree with you...But remember, in Detroit, David Cage wanted to mostly focus on the interactive gameplay rather than the story itself...He already had a story in his mind, But he gave the full control of how the story will tell to the player...Its like you are directing it!!!! You can make it a simple story or you can make it complicated ! But I better say that I got little disappointing at the final scene where it is just a credits roll and it doesn't show much of the characters future like Heavy Rain did...But still me personally, I give this game 9/10 !!!!
The worst part of David-Cage-games is always David Cage.
And the best part of David-Cage-games is always David Cage too.
What the fuck have you been expecting to be honest? lol
the ignorance
Yep, David Cage's ignorance is one big reason for this
Throughout all of Detroit I never wanted Hank and Connor's portions to end. Even though I like Markus and Kara's stories as well, Hank and Connor had an excellent buddy cop dynamic and stood out so well against the rest of the game. I honestly think you could just take their scenario and make a whole game about them solving crimes, Hank learning to love again, and Connor learning it's ok to have emotions.
I really like Detroit. It's the fastest I've ever finished a game, actually. I like the fact that you have to carry out every single task because it makes me feel more invested in the game (even if it did make me burst out laughing after I didn't complete an action fully and it reversed), but I guess it's just personal opinion. I do agree that Markus' "demonstration" route was way too unrealistic, and I also agree that it's good to decide the pacing of the story. :)
Honestly I loved the game, I tend to not look to far into games and just enjoy them, but I did find myself bored and wanting to get to connors parts whenever I wasn’t watching him and hank- also I loved the crossovers with the characters too lmao
Yesssss same
I think if Detroit: Become Human was entirely focused on Hank/Connor, it would have been a far better game than the already very good game that it is currently.
Spoilers:
I love the arc these two share and how you shape it and how the two react to everything. It's wonderful. Markus? Very on the nose (let's have a Black Character lead a civil rights revolution...oh wait...MLK did it first, eh, let's do it again...BUT ANDROIDS) and Kara...eh, that could have been better, though there were points where I was openly sobbing (the carousel ride for one)
I like the minute trivial action that it makes the player goes through. It makes me feel like the player is more in the game. I feel like not all scenes should be all action packed filled with moments of character trait reveals and detail just like how everyday mundane life is. One great example of this is the scene of Kara coming back and doing all the house chores that needs to be done to tidy up Todd's house. There's something just so emotional about a broken man trying to get back to some semblance of his old life through Kara and Alice juxtaposed by what I view as Kara doing whatever she can to patch up a run down house by a junky.
Alice turning out to be an android though really surprised me... I feel like this was at the same time a bit on the nose - trying to get us to feel more sympathy towards the androids but it was fine. If you ask me I think it could have been more nuanced and more interesting.
Overall it may not be perfect, but it was, at least I think, good enough because I was able to sympathize with the game.
Connor’s story was the only one that followed the title’s tag line “become human.” Through out his story he learns how to doubt, to be sad, to love, to sympathize, all human traits. His direction really makes us question if there is more to being human that just flesh, bones, and blood. To say that David Cage is a bad writer discredits his work on Connor’s story. He’s not a bad writer, he just has strengths and weaknesses. It’s clear that his strengths are cop and mystery stories, it’s those kinds of stories where his talents as a writer clearly shines.
My favourite parts of this game is the Hank and Connor story. I want an entire game centered around them. Just those two and the problems with cyberlife and then them dealing with the aftermath of a deviant uprising either together or apart depending on the outcome.
oh no, I made ze bad game
a man of culture i see
"bad game" this game was fucking amazing. One of the best games ever. Definitely in the "masterpiece" range, together with The Last Of Us and God of War.
Black Parade You're delusional.
Federico Machado yeah that's why this game is one of the highest rated games ever by gamers. This game is great.
Ze game overs are a failure of ze game designer
An "In-depth" analysis? This just shows your hatred towards the writer of the game. I do agree on the mechanics could done better to remove some mundane thing like pick up and put down a bag, but everything else are just unwatchable. In the market I just cannot think of any other game (Interactive game is still a game) have so many different endings and outcomes. Telltales simply couldn't compete.
because poorly written outcomes and a lazy setting is somehow a seal of quality, amirite?
Read/play more visual novels.
This game is just a more interactive (at times TOO interactive) visual novel, with branching options and multiple endings... I mean fuck, Mass Effect 1 or various other Bioware games had important choices that affected how other characters behaved and how story went, in some of them you could end the game's final boss encounter just by having made the correct options with diplomatic scenarios.
AND THERE'S ACTUAL GAMEPLAY ELEMENTS IN THOSE GAMES
Abedeuss You sound super fucking triggered.
+Abedeuss Name a single visual novel that has such beautiful graphics, BEAUTIFUL soundtrack, good voice-over acting. To call this a visual novel is insane.
It is the difference between coal and diamond.
The Connor Hank storyline was a magnitude better than the other plot lines. That part really worked so well.
The only thought I’m conflicted with right now is why couldn’t have Markus turned Conner into a deviant by touching him just like he did for others?!
I had the same issue. Kara and Alice didn't have to go through the house of horror to meet Luther either. They could've met him at Rose's. Their bond could've started there.
I liked the game. I loved Connor.
But listen. Why was Hank in the basement of Cyberlife at the end? What the actual fuck was he doing there, and how did he get there?
The Dark Phoenix yeah but how was he allowed in, how did he not have anyone watching him, how are we to just assume reasons why he's there
Like it's the basement of cyberlife, why was he allowed in there at all, let alone with no supervision
Probably looking for Connor/trying to help him, as he only appears if he has a good relationship with Connor. As to the point that a lot of people were making about how he got in- *SPOILERS*- CyberLife probably left the metaphorical backdoor open, deliberately. Near the end, Amanda tells Connor that CyberLife planned for him to become a deviant to infiltrate Jericho, and that they were just waiting to take back control (and will, unless Connor finds the emergency exit Kamski mentioned). The CyberLife Tower incident could have easily been one last test (social integration abilities- his relationship with Hank- plus physical abilities- fighting off the other Connor).
Drek D If I had to guess second Connor pretended to be first Connor and told Hank he wanted to free the andriods since he knew our Connor would be heading there to actually free the andriods and he could use Hank as leverage to stop him
Hol'up. So you're saying this game lets me play as a 2018 R. Daneel Olivaw who's partnered with an alcholic, hobo Elijah Baley? That alone is worth the price of admission! At worst, I'll just pretend I'm playing a bad parody spinoff game.
I honestly don't get what exactly you're trying to say about the game, okay, it's poorly written, could you give examples (it may not be specific ones, but aspects of the game that were explored in a wrong way)? it's pushing "fake deepness", could you elaborate? I'm trying to decide if I'm going to pick it up on sale or not, considering that I hated beyond two souls, and thought that heavy rain and indigo prophecy were interesting at maybe the first 1/3 of the gameplay, then became gradually more and more bizarre and nonsensical (which was tbh quite entertaining), with heavy rain having one character that i did enjoy (and tbh Connor is somewhat close to Norman as a character, maybe Cage just enjoys writing those types of guys? hmm). Also, what did you enjoy in the wrong way? Am I stupid for not geting any analysis out of this review? I just feel like the whole "Cage is an awful writer" thing is somewhat exagerated. I don't think that he is good, either. He's not imaginative enough and takes no time to truly reflect on the topics he's trying to talk about. But whenever I'm asking someone why they think Cage is such a catastrophe, they usually can't say anything really thoughtful. I mean people use all sorts of dramatic epithets for him "catastrophic", "chaotic", "awful", "writing madness" etc. But I think that he's just meh and boring. Two of the last Deus Ex make zero sense and are VERY badly written yet I can't see anyone using same type of criticism while plot holes and logic disasters in them sometimes exceed Cage's. Maybe this kind of response is due to Cage's somewhat pompeous personality, I wonder.
I honestly think the entire experience is subjective. If you like the story and understand the style of gameplay going in, you'll have fun. The writing isn't bad so much as some people just don't enjoy it. Some parts are better than others, but when the dialogue is good it shines.
I mean, here's my take. For as much as people crap on the game's story, you can't just say a story is bad because it has imagery that mirror civil rights. I didn't get the impression it was written that way to be arrogantly clever. It was written that way because it fits the story. Androids are becoming closer and closer to human and lines get blurred. I'd honestly be more weirded out if it somehow completely avoided the issue of civil rights in deciding if they were human. Like...it's the entire point. The same goes for people saying that it wasn't very subtle in its message. I'm...not sure where on the box it was written that it was trying to be subtle.
All I know is that by the end of the game I was legitimately invested in my characters. I wanted them to succeed. I worried they might not make it, or that their companions might not make it. When one character had to sacrifice themselves for me, I felt bad about it. On my first play, I lost a major character riiiiiiight at the end, after all I'd taken them through.
I'll be frank. It was a gut punch.
This game isn't without fault. (Or, more accurately, the game isn't without aspects that I personally disliked. I don't think there are a lot of objective faults with it that everyone would agree are bad.) But I can honestly tell you that games that make me feel something are few and far between. And this game, well, it made me feel something.
thenerdempire thank you for your opinion! I think I'll check it out after all, I appreciate games that try something different to tell a story, no matter how good or bad the attempt is.
thenerdempire
Aww, good for you man!:)
The argument is NOT "it has historical imagery, therefore it is bad." The argument is "instead of building a believable world and showing you things organically [and perhaps later using imagery as small props to make it concrete], he shoves so much obvious imagery into your face that it a) feels out of place, since all those symbols probably wouldn't come together like that if the fictional universe was real and b) takes the impetus away from the viewer to figure it out themselves."
The stupidest thing about this is that David Cage literally said in a interview just before the game was out that Detroit isn't supposed to send any kind of message whatsoever but he clearly compares the androids to slavery and racism but then does a whole 180 degree turn and tells you to not think anything about it.
Connor and Hank are the best parts of the game, and it makes even more sense when Connor's actor tells that many of their scenes were improvised explicitly against Cage's instructions. Some of the best scenes like the winking one were berated by Cage as soon as it ended.
If the game was just Connor & Hank & it was a strict neo-noir detective drama, Detroit would've been a masterpiece. That seems to be the only genre Cage has nailed down.
I also think it was said that most of Connor and Hank's lines were improvised, and Cage had little input on that part of the game in general.
I still haven't played the game yet, but if it's anything more like Heavy Rain and less like Beyond: Two Souls, I'll be cool with it. Heavy Rain didn't make much sense either, but it struck an emotional core with me where it counted. Beyond was just dumb all the way through. But if Detroit: Become Human can make me feel anything, then I'll be measuring its worth based on that quality and how significant it was. We'll see. I've forgiven bad games before.
Drake Chandler
Honestly speaking, I preferred Connor's story the most because he is a dynamic character throughout the story. I don't want to spoil anything but a lot of choices made will decide what kind of person and what side you want him to be on.
Drake Chandler Man, I cried, laughed, bit my nails. If you want a game to make you feel, this is it.
I absolutely agree. For all people are complaining about the writing, I have to give full credit to something that made me feel as much as this did. If it was trying to make me feel things, it succeeded.
Definetely more of the Heavy Rain than Beyond: Two Souls.
I don't get your criticisms. They seem like petty nitpicking. I thought the game was perfect.
The Virgin Marty I agree! This is David Cage's best game ever!
"Fucking robots they ain't got any soul"
FILTHY FRANK
2006-2018
i agree however the game is not perfect but the criticisms he made were pretty minor and i dont think effects the game poorly in any way but i love the game and think its probably cages best work yet
The premise of the game is androids becoming self-aware. That said, there are only two directions the story can take. The terminator route has already been taken. This is the alternative, which is the most realistic way it could have gone in real life.
I have noticed the allegories, but believe it or not, history does repeat itself. If they have not reflected on those past events, the story could not have been as in-depth and compelling as it was. As I've said before, everything borrows from something.
Does Westworld borrow images and songs that blatantly from civil rights history? I like Detroit, but I'd say that Westworld is considerably more in-depth and it does it without having to be so heavy handed with it's inspirations. I have absolutely no problem with subtle nods or generally drawing inspiration from history. But using the black right's fist symbol? Using negro spirituals? That's not necessary or tasteful. Everything about Cage's writing is blunt (apart from some genuine nuance with Connor) and he should probably refrain from writing about genuine political and social issues that he's not well versed in.
Hell, I wouldn't try to write a story that took strong influence from a Japanese civil rights issue because I'm not Japanese and even if I researched it, I still wouldn't do it justice.
I love how they never really explored the moral implications of Markus turning androids deviant by force. They had a chance to explore how with emotion and thought comes pain and inflicting the ability to feel all of the worlds horrible things upon those who are otherwise content in their existence without it can be immoral. But this is David Cage.
this genre is not for everyone, but saying that anyone who likes it for its storyline is objectively wrong is a shit thing to do. if you have a bias on genres, DONT MAKE A REVIEW. the seamless player interaction and storytelling this game offers is only present in games like half life. THATS THE POINT. the storytelling comes second in this type of genre. and if youre going to shit on these types of controls, make 20 more reviews on telltale games and interactive movies, because what your doing here is a bit dumb. im not saying the video was all bad, the lack of effort in path finding and cliches in the game are major setbacks in the game and ill give you that, but for a game with a relatively new concept, hes done a relatively good job. i feel like he learned from most of his mistakes from his last two games. this game does not follow populist propaganda like the giver did, btw.
it was a really put together video, but for all the wrong reasons.