Radiant Heat System - Hydronic Heated Floor
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- Опубликовано: 18 май 2024
- Radiant Heat System utilizing Ecowarm under stone composite vinyl.
System Size and Cost at the time I bought everything October 2020 - January 2021
Total Cost Estimate ~ $6,000
Broken down:
- Ecowarm Boards ~750sqft = ~$4,500
- Stiebel Tempra 15 = $500
- 1/2" Mr. PEX Oxygen Barrier 3 x 300ft = $450
- Bluefin manifold and EK20 Fittings = $183
- Grundfos water pump - 3 speed = $88
- Everything else = $265
For a DIYer, this is a solid effort. I had my friend - a licensed HVAC - help build my system. The only thing I would caution you on is the flow direction of your pump. If its pumping downward, it may be flowing at a higher rate than you intended. Also was told that it will shorten the life of the pump so may be worth looking into. Otherwise, looks good and thanks for sharing.
Nice job! Appreciate the overview. It doesn't matter if your pump pushes water on the hot side or pulls water on the return side for radiant floor heating. For hydronic radiators, the circulator pump is on the return due to higher water temperatures.
Awesome thank you!! Getting ready to do my pole barn floor system! A lot of helpful information!!!
Great video !
This is awesome. I'm wanting to do this also.
The expansion tank has an air bladder in it that you pressurize via the schrader valve on the bottom of the tank. As your system generates heat, the fluid expands, which would increase pressure in the system if there wasn't some way to modulate that -- that's what the expansion tank does. When the fluid expands (by being heated) the pressure goes up in the system, which pushes against the air bladder in the expansion tank, thereby increasing the volume within the system so that the pressure decreases to whatever you're trying to keep it to. Conversely, if the fluid cools (like if you had the temp set to decrease overnight), the fluid volume would decrease, so pressure in the system would drop; the air bladder in the expansion tank then pushes back against the fluid in the system and helps increase the pressure to your desired setting. Clever devices and they just automatically adjust based on the pressure you set in the air bladder.
Thank you for the information. I think the best pressure for a radiant system is 15-20psi. If I set the tank pressure to 20psi and I start pushing water in via my home which is pressured higher (probably like 40psi) should I stop right when it hits 20psi or a little less, like 18 or 19 to be safe?
@@scrandomhelp I'm not a plumbing expert, but pressure within the system is basically only needed to be able to push fluid up to higher floors in a building. Assuming you're doing radiant heat in the floor beneath your system (that's what it looks like, viewing the Pex tubes running down from your manifold) then you only need a few pounds to get the fluid back up from the floor to your water heater and pump, etc. Something like 10-15 psi should be more than enough. Of course, if you're going to added another zone (say, for the floor above the system) or even another for a floor above that one, then you'll need to run higher pressure to accommodate pushing fluid to those higher floors. Water is actually pretty heavy, so it takes 0.4335 psi to lift it 1 foot; so for 10 feet, you'd need 10x0.4335 = 4.335; 20 feet would be 8.67 psi, etc. But again, if you're not lifting it very high, you don't need much pressure.
I'm from Chicago as well. I'm considering installing similar system and retrofit it into existing slab.
Good job brother 😊
Great video! Can you shoot another video after you make the added parts you and others have discussed.the supply/heating and manifold is where I'm at. I just started researching using a tankless heater and came across your video. This looks simple and to the point not overwhelming as some of the videos out there thank you.what is you gpm from the heater?
You are using a water heater relief valve that is set at 150 psi. You need to change that to a boiler relief valve which is set to blow at 30 psi. If your water heater would stick on you would split your PEX, destroy your expansion tank and circulator. Always install a expansion tank valve between your tank and your system, this will allow you to remove the water pressure from your tank without opening your system to check the air pressure yearly in your bladder.
Thank you for your comment! The pressure relief is a big error on my part, that would definitely be a huge problem. I will quickly replace it with something like this, just need to find one in stock: www.supplyhouse.com/Cash-Acme-20166-0030-3-4-F30-Pressure-Only-Safety-Relief-Valve-30-PSI
That thermal expansion tank is normally pre-charged from the factory at somewhere between 12 - 15 psi because it should roughly match the cold (non-operating) pressure of the fluid in your heating loop which typically would be in that same range. You can always check the air pressure in the expansion tank with an air gauge for a bike or car tire. Make sure the system is cold first to ensure you get a correct reading on the tank pressure...
Will do, I'm going to remove enough water so the pressure drops and check the psi. Then if anything pump it to 20psi. I don't know yet if I will fill in the water so it hits 20psi or fill it in so it hits right below like 18 or 19 psi.
@@scrandomhelp I think there is a misunderstanding here. When your system is not in use (i.e. its completely off and cold) the pressure on the gauge for the water should read about 15psi and the pressure in the air tank should be somewhere between 11 and 15 psi. The water pressure will rise closer to 20 psi completely on its own while the system is on (heating).
So as far as the expansion tank goes, they are usually factory charged around 15 psi. When your system is running, the tank does nothing. When the system is static the expansion tank uses the diaphragm and trades air compression for water thermal expansion. Another way to think of it is static you may have 15 psi, running you may have 13 psi and thermal expansion may raise your static to 17. When the tank goes bad you will see the 30 psi pressure relief kick and you should replace both parts when that happens. Pump push or pull won’t matter with hydronic/radiant since that pump is probably rated to run at about 180 degrees. I would humbly suggest you turn the temp up to at least 120. Radiant works best with a slightly higher delta t (temp difference) and the warning you are looking at is more about prevention of scalding for a water heating system not a system limit and not what you want for a delta in a heating system. Install looks great, hope you get years of life out of it.
I think in your case it doesn't matter which side the pump goes in. I am building a hydronic snow melt system for my driveway, where the slab temperatur could be 10 degrees or even cooler. Pumping a mixture of glycol and water would make the liquid too cold for having the pump on the cold return. I will place it on the hot supply (which would be about 15-20 degrees warmer than the return). Not sure if anyone can comment on this.Thanks!
Thanks for the video. Would you be able to also list where you sourced the materials from in the video description next to the price breakdowns you already show? I'm not sure if you mentioned it in the video, but I didn't catch where you purchased the Ecowarm Boards from.
The ecowarm boards I bought directly from ecowarm: ecowarmradiantheat.com/
The tankless heater and filter I bought off amazon.
The rest was www.supplyhouse.com/.
The pump goes in the return line because it is cooler. This will make your pump last longer.
Looks great, I recently purchased a house with radiant heat. I love it and am in the process of learning. Mine has two separate zones, first and second floor. The second floor manifold has an automatic bleeder which is located above the entire system and air bleeds easily. However ky first floor manifold is in the crawl space and I have had an issue with air locking as the return pex is below the floor system.
Have you had any issues with air since your system is located below the floor it’s heating? Or do you have a way to bleed the air from above?
No way for me to bleed the air from above and I do understand your issue. Theoretically I would have air in the pex that wouldn't be pushed down, but for now it's heating great. I wonder if the pressure of the water helps to push most of the air out over time, but I have a feeling you are right and I have air pockets all over the place.
Here are your typical pressures for a low temperature hydronic heating system......
Cold Fill Pressure = 15psi
Expansion Tank Pre-Charge = 12-15 psi
Pressure when system running and up to operating temp = 20-25 psi
Pressure safety valve should activate at 30psi
A system pressure of 15psi is more than enough static lift to get water up to the upper floor.
Thank you! This helps a ton.
Question on the operation temp psi, if I set the expansion tank yo 15psi, if the pressure rises due to the heating of water, the expansion tank would take care of that and I wouldn't see the psi at 20-25 correct? It would remain at 15psi because the expansion tank would expand.
Nice video. Do you use just the floor heating in the rooms that have it? And if so how has it been in the winter. I have radiators and I’m wondering if there still necessary
Yes sir. This is the 3rd winter I'm using it and it's great. If you have radiators and you're comfortable I would say it's not necessary unless your floors are cold and you want them to be warm.
Nice!!! do you get pipe noise (tapping, scratching, popping) due to pex expansion and being tight in the groove?
No noise from the pex. The only noise I hear is the tankless water heater warming up the water initially. When it’s trying to take water from 70 degrees to 125 it’s working hard. Once the water is warmer and the input it more around 95-100 degrees I don’t hear anything but a small whisper from the pump.
Normally hydronic systems have a one way fill valve like a Watts 911S. This would ensure that your heating loop maintains the required pressure and fluid volume (in case of a small leak somewhere etc). This would also remove the need to connect a garden hose to flush the sediment trap since the fill valve does the same thing. Is there a reason why you don't have this type of valve installed?
I'll have to look into it. A quick read and it says that valve is not suitable for potable water so I would have to be careful installed it permanently connected to my home plumbing system. I find it easier to do maintenance and use a garden hose once a year, but this is a good solution too. I just wanted to separate the system fully even though a one way check valve would technically do that.
@@scrandomhelp I think there is a misunderstanding here. These pressure reducing/check valves have been the standard for hydronic type installations like yours for decades now. Your setup is kind of odd by not having it. Maybe this video will give you a better idea of what it does: ruclips.net/video/enZ9Y9gQQxU/видео.html
Add the check valve and low pressure valve (apprx 15 psi - same as expansion tank) for SAFETY and CODE !!!!!!
Nice job, can you tell us what you did for a cooling?
Cooling the house or pump?
House I have A/C.
Pump is rated for a lot hotter than 115F which is running through it.
Hi great video, what size is your boiler, thinking of doing a system very similar many thanks
Not a boiler, it's a tankless water heater. Stiebel Eltron Tankless Water Heater 15Kw. I probably could have gotten away with a 12Kw, but the price difference wasn't big and wanted to make sure it was powerful enough.
Thanks very much for reply, I'm in the uk, we don't have many choices in electric tankless heater here, but can get a similar model to yours, Thanks again great video, and well explained
Looking to do this in a 900 sq ft cabin. Curious costs? Also curious on solar panels, how many?
Added more info in the description about cost but it was about $6,000 for the whole system. You can save a lot of money by going with normal plywood with cutouts for the pex tubing or put the pex tubing in cement if you're already laying that down. You can see the ecowarm was $4,500, so most of the cost.
I am getting 28x370W LG Panels installed, so 10.36kW system, which will help to greatly offset the heating cost, or what I'm hoping null it all together.
Thank you for the video, the system is straight forward, not complicated. Just curious, are you using the tankless heater for solely heating the floor or also for the house hot water?
I have questions.. what was the Sq. of your radiant floor and how much was the total cost of building radiant system?
and how much do you think your monthly bill is with radiant floor before and after?
Added more info in the description about cost but it was about $6,000 for the whole system. You can save a lot of money by going with normal plywood with cutouts for the pex tubing or put the pex tubing in cement if you're already laying that down. You can see the ecowarm was $4,500, so most of the cost.
The monthly bill was definitely higher. I was doing a combo between forced air and radiant heat, so without forced air it probably would have been higher but I would say it increased my electric bill about $80-$100 extra a month having the temp set at 72-74F with the outside temp being 10-40F (I'm in Chicago). My solar panels are being installed in the next couple weeks so that will definitely null the price of the heating, which is why I went with an electric vs natural gas, plus didn't have to vent it.
@@scrandomhelp Thanks for your kind answer... I will be waiting for your solar project too.
Install the Pressure gauge BEFORE the expansion tank not AFTER
That would have made more sense, thanks for your comment. I ended up having to depressurize the system and pressurizing the expansion tank to something like 25psi. And then I pressurized the system to 20psi. I might have to 20/15 but regardless I had to do that because if I pressurized the system to the pressure tank psi, that did cause an issue figuring out which pressure I had.
You should not use household water in the closed system.
What liquid do you use in your system, glycol , windshield fluid?
Normal city water. Nothing added. It’s a closed system and inside my insulated house so it will not freeze unless my inside home temps get below 32.
The pressure tank pressure is supposed to be set to be equal to the system pressure. They usually come from the manufacturer set at either 20 or 40 psi. But imagine if your system pressure is around 18-24 psi, but your tank is at 40 psi. That would just mean that it would take more water expansion before the tank would start performing. In your case, the pressure woud theoretically rise to above 40 psi before the tank would start working. So, you need to get that tank bladder pressure down to whatever the system operating pressure is. That way, if the watrer expands to increase pressure to above system pressure, the tank will take that extra water and regulate it back to the system pressure. It looks like you have a couple of isolation valves on either side of the Pressure tank, so that can help you set the bladder pressure of the expansion tank.
7:14 Instead of 15 psi, you need to ask if she is 18 psi. Not that I have a chance in Hell.
Because it is a closed loop system and hopefully it was filled with a mix of polyethylene glycol and DISTILLED water you shouldn’t have to clean it at all. Now, the polyethylene glycol mixture may have to be replaced every five or 10 years per mgr instructions that I am not sure about. The reason why tankless water heaters need to be cleaned when they are used for domestic hot water is because of all the minerals that are in normal water but using distilled water there shouldn’t be any minerals at all. Thus no need to flush your tankless water heater.
Wow definitely not professionally done. Pipes not level, no real support and your pumps going to burn out fast as your pumping water through the whole system off one pump. Should have primary line and have the manifold off a secondary line.
Agreed, I am definitely not a professional. I was worried about the pump but I've seen people use the same pump for much larger systems, I'm hoping mine will last at least 5-10 years on my small 700sqft system. My system is small and I wanted everything to be off of one zone. Can you reply with a link or picture of what you mean by primary line and have the manifold off secondary line? I learn by visualizing so a picture is worth a thousand words for me.
And yet he ran it for 2-years at the time of this video, and it's been working just fine...
How do you fill the system?
Hose attached to the manifold from my sink.