Wim, your whole beat theory will overcome all challenges eventually; it’s the common sense truth. BUT will any of us commenting here be alive to see it? Your courage and commitment against all odds is inspiring. GOOD LUCK!
I think Whole-Beat, as Wim has presented many times is historically accurate, and presents an authentic way to hear the way the Composers intended their compositions to be heard at that time. Authenticity typically exists in the domain of historians, curators, preservationists, and collectors. But, music is heard by the living who often have a very different set of experiences, values, and standards. No matter how much I agree with Wim, and the valuable research, documentation, proofs, and examples he's presented, is doesn't really change the tempos I prefer to hear various pieces or the instruments they are played upon. Regarding the upcoming Chopin Competition, perhaps like other types of competitions (i.e. Figure Skating - School Figures), it should include tests dedicated to measuring technical skills, such as speed, ability to play extremely difficult passages and techniques. Then the music competitions could divorce the evaluation of musicality, interpretation, and authenticity and from technical proficiency tests.
Interesting, I found an old video of Czerny op 740 complete from various pianists in China on RUclips. Although they are fast, when I checked a few of them and it would appear that none of them reached the indicated metronome mark in single beat. I think that further reinforces the point....
Why people want to play fast and loud, I will never understand… why not play a little slower and quieter, and bathe in the sonic painting the composer spent sometimes years carefully crafting… ill rather preserve the integrity of my hands and play in a slower tempo :)
Let's face it, actually, playing faster is easier from a musical standpoint. A quick an easy way to make "interesting" something you are unable to make interesting as it is is just to play it faster and all of a sudden the "interest" and "musicality" you weren't finding pops up there effortlessly. But that's the doom of music with the actual race for the fastest we live in...
@@EggMCMUFFIN-e4l Yes it is!! And that's why composers claimed for a device to clearly set their time for the music they had just composed. And when they had it available they set all of their required tempi. Why wouldn't they if they thought music to be so subjective so they could clarify once and for all what precise time they wanted for the piece..?
I really think you speak clearly. If I had to summarize your words I would say the following: the Chopin metronome and dynamic marks on the score are actually from Czerny's edition, meaning, Chopin actually cared about metronome marks (if not why would he pot it on his own handwriting) and, not only that, he cared about Czerny's metronome marks and if we accept the C sharp major on Single Beat we should accept every piece of Czerny on Single Beat but there are too many examples too fast for a human to achieve, and by playing that fast on the peaces we are used to play so fast, we do compromises that are not written on the score. As simple as that. Wonderful work, as always!
As always, a provocative video with much to think about. I do wish that you would, as a matter of courtesy to other youtubers, give links in your descriptions to the YT videos you are making use of. I had to search YT to find Ben Laude's series on Chopin,and the Eigeldinger interview.
Gould besides a fantastic technique, Gould used a modified, lighter action for his Steinway. Others have said in some recordings you can hear some noise from this modification. Gould could play and recorded the a minor J S Bach A minor invention in single beat of Czerny MM indication. Completely unhistorical (no tempo) so Tempo Ordinario tempo for C, and as much as I have some admiration for Gould, the performance sounds like cr@p…And would a 12 year old W F Bach been expected to play at that tempo.
Everybody is so used to hearing Bach's 2-part inventions played slowly and reverently by averagely gifted present-day12-year olds that they find it impossible to accept Gould's (and Czerny's) conception of them as Etudes for training highly talented young klavierists. As for Gould's C# major prelude, that is exactly the sort of speed I would choose if I had the technique - fantastic!
When you mentioned that many performers discard the metronome marks in favour of the Italian tempo words, I almost laughed out loudly since those tempo words are often not respected either. After all, how often do we have a piece marked Allegro, Allegro moderato, or Allegretto, and it is played Presto/Prestissimo instead? No wonder performers have to slam the brakes in the final bars of several pieces to have time to properly resolve the final notes. As for appreciating whole beat tempi after being used to fast performances. It took me just two pieces and I was sold.
I haven't seen the facsimile of Chopin's copy of WTC 1, but I have read that the Czerny indications were only copied onto the first 7 preludes and fugues. Did Chopin make any annotations on the rest?
The Inventions were originally titled Preambulum in his father’s Notebooklet for W F Bach. There’s a revised Version of the Invention in Bach’s hand, in which there’s a superincriptions so there’s six 1/16 triplets along with four 1/16s.
In my Padarewski edition of the Chopin Studies [sic] the metronome marks are unambiguous. e.g. Opus 10:1 (Allegro) = 176 crotchets per minute, = 176 x 4 semiquavers per minute, = (176 x 4)/60 = 11.73 successive notes (key strikes) per second. Opus 10:6 (Andante) = 69 dotted crotchets per minute, = (69 x 1.5) x 4 semiquavers per minute, = (103.5 x 4)/60 = 6.9 successive notes (key strikes) per second. A Google Advanced Search using the search terms > meaning Italian "Allegro" < came up with the following, which hopefully will give an indication as to the way in which the so-dubbed 'Waterfall' Étude is to be approached [emphases in bold below are mine]: " The Italian word allegro has multiple meanings, including "cheerful" or "lively" and a musical term that indicates a piece should be played quickly and in a lively manner: Adjective Means "happy," "cheerful," "joyous," or "full of happiness". For example, un carattere allegro means "a cheerful disposition". Musical term An instruction on a musical score to play a piece at a *relatively* fast pace and in a bright and merry manner. It's similar to the term vivace, which also means "lively". Allegro is generally taken as fast, but *not* as fast as vivace or presto. The word allegro comes from the Vulgar Latin word alecrus, which means "lively". " Observe that the number of successive semiquaver key strikes per second in 'Waterfall' is 1.7 times the number in Opus 10.6, which is generally considered one of Chopin's 'slow' Études.
Didn-t Glenn Gould play some Bach invention (the F-Major one I think) at half the usual tempo, which seemed weird way back - but having listened to this conference, I can now see the point he was trying to make. Maybe ! Thank you , Sir
I Love Love Love your WTC Tempi. All the phrases are appreciated, the clavicord is singing to its natural limits of duration of tone and humble harmonics. I aim to record the WTC in whole beat.
Czerny's metronome markings for the WTC in single beat line up almost perfectly with his descriptions of the Italian terms they're matched with in Op. 500, lmao
I’ve always thought that for the most part, Alkan’s metronome markings were way too fast. By the way, Kirnberger in the 1770s said that fugues were being butchered because people had forgotten their old dance rhythms. I always scan Bach for dance rhythms to establish an appropriate tempo. This would apply to the WTC preludes as well, and following Kirnberger’s comment, one assumes that by Czerny’s time, it was worse. Also, Zimmermann stated that fugues should be played legato, and if one had the chance, one should play them at the organ to get a better sense of the legato. Fine, but Franck was accused of playing the organ with an approximate legato and an approximate duration of note values. Considering that Franck was a pupil of Zimmermann, this is rather telling.
I'm having to relearn many piano pieces because I used to play the slow parts too quickly and the fast parts too slowly! Now I'm playing slow parts slowly and fast parts fast. I had it completely backward... just like most professional pianists, it seems.
I have been going to a lot of organ concerts lately and it's sad to hear so many mistakes, that could easily be avoided, by playing at a reasonable tempo
Talking about famous 19th century pianists playing Bach, what do you think of the Metronome marks of A.P.F. Boëly? It seems to me the marks for his own études are quite fast in some cases (though I have yet to see if they are consistent with a single or double beat reading of the marks) and then on the other hand his few M.m. for several Bach organ pieces are quite slow or moderate.
6:43 Não entendo inglês bem o suficiente para entender o vídeo, mas tive a impressão de que eu devia tentar encontrar uma semelhança entre estre prelúdio de Bach e alguma música de Chopin. Então percebi que esse trecho lembra muito o final da Balada n1, mais especificamente aquele momento de teclas "emboladas".
People want to be awed by Chopin, Liszt and Beethoven etc. But they only want to be in awe in the way they have fantasized. If Liszt or Chopin played today, we may well be in awe if you are looking for what they are really offering, but it won't be because Liszt was louder, faster and more technically perfect than anyone we'd ever seen. For some people that would be too much of a disappointment since it strays too far from their wishes and expectations. So they resist the idea completely.
Do you humans ever follow the logic?! We can`t turn the time back. Pianists will go on play fast. Some few will follow the obvious truth. Just sad, that the others think, they play like Beethoven intended it andf laugh at the slow players. On the other hand, we don`t know what Mozart or Chopin would say, if they could hear a modern performance of the g-minor symphonie, or all the Chopin etudes played brillant from a modern virtuoso. They obviously would be speechless, and perhaps even in positive way. Many composers said, that others play their works better than themselves. With the tempo I am sure, but how they would like modern interpretations, we can`t know.
Pour le tempo de l'invention 1, on veut soit l'entendre et l'écouter (tel que dans l'interprétation de la jeune fille), soit s'en débarrasser (warp speed). Outre vos recherches, on peut aussi se demander à quelle tempo peut-on la transposer, cette invention? Voilà peut-être une indication de ce que serait un tempo plus andante /dansant.
Oh, aucun rapport avec cette vidéo sur les tempi, mais utile, si jamais vous vous découragez, cher Wim Winters, une pub pour... la volonté humaine (!?!) dans une discussion Huberman/ Goggins. Salut bien d'Ottawa (Canada). m.ruclips.net/video/nDLb8_wgX50/видео.html
Wim, your whole beat theory will overcome all challenges eventually; it’s the common sense truth. BUT will any of us commenting here be alive to see it? Your courage and commitment against all odds is inspiring. GOOD LUCK!
People are addicted to the fast and furious tempi of their favorite performances and recordings. The WBMP tempi are more natural and satisfying to me.
Pianists are obsessed with speed . Most will never listen to the music . You are so right !!!!!!
I think Whole-Beat, as Wim has presented many times is historically accurate, and presents an authentic way to hear the way the Composers intended their compositions to be heard at that time. Authenticity typically exists in the domain of historians, curators, preservationists, and collectors. But, music is heard by the living who often have a very different set of experiences, values, and standards. No matter how much I agree with Wim, and the valuable research, documentation, proofs, and examples he's presented, is doesn't really change the tempos I prefer to hear various pieces or the instruments they are played upon.
Regarding the upcoming Chopin Competition, perhaps like other types of competitions (i.e. Figure Skating - School Figures), it should include tests dedicated to measuring technical skills, such as speed, ability to play extremely difficult passages and techniques. Then the music competitions could divorce the evaluation of musicality, interpretation, and authenticity and from technical proficiency tests.
Interesting, I found an old video of Czerny op 740 complete from various pianists in China on RUclips. Although they are fast, when I checked a few of them and it would appear that none of them reached the indicated metronome mark in single beat. I think that further reinforces the point....
Why people want to play fast and loud, I will never understand… why not play a little slower and quieter, and bathe in the sonic painting the composer spent sometimes years carefully crafting… ill rather preserve the integrity of my hands and play in a slower tempo :)
I agree. I graduated from Juilliard years ago.
Let's face it, actually, playing faster is easier from a musical standpoint. A quick an easy way to make "interesting" something you are unable to make interesting as it is is just to play it faster and all of a sudden the "interest" and "musicality" you weren't finding pops up there effortlessly. But that's the doom of music with the actual race for the fastest we live in...
@@sildurmank fast is subjective.
Spot on!👏
@@EggMCMUFFIN-e4l Yes it is!! And that's why composers claimed for a device to clearly set their time for the music they had just composed. And when they had it available they set all of their required tempi. Why wouldn't they if they thought music to be so subjective so they could clarify once and for all what precise time they wanted for the piece..?
You are so right !! We should play double beat and perhaps add 10 or 15 percent. But no more
Your channel priceless. I studied at Juilliard and agree with you totally . Our tempos are out if control. We are playing everything wish too fast.
Did you mean to say 'wish' too fast? Or, given that you're talking about excessive speed, did you mean to type "Woosh"?
Chopin wrote a Two Voice Fugue, it’s in IMSP. Czerny’s other connection with Chopin, they met twice.
I really think you speak clearly. If I had to summarize your words I would say the following: the Chopin metronome and dynamic marks on the score are actually from Czerny's edition, meaning, Chopin actually cared about metronome marks (if not why would he pot it on his own handwriting) and, not only that, he cared about Czerny's metronome marks and if we accept the C sharp major on Single Beat we should accept every piece of Czerny on Single Beat but there are too many examples too fast for a human to achieve, and by playing that fast on the peaces we are used to play so fast, we do compromises that are not written on the score.
As simple as that.
Wonderful work, as always!
As always, a provocative video with much to think about. I do wish that you would, as a matter of courtesy to other youtubers, give links in your descriptions to the YT videos you are making use of. I had to search YT to find Ben Laude's series on Chopin,and the Eigeldinger interview.
Listen to Gould, Mr W. He even plays a tiny bit faster than Czernys Single beat marking for that prelude.
Gould besides a fantastic technique, Gould used a modified, lighter action for his Steinway. Others have said in some recordings you can hear some noise from this modification. Gould could play and recorded the a minor J S Bach A minor invention in single beat of Czerny MM indication. Completely unhistorical (no tempo) so Tempo Ordinario tempo for C, and as much as I have some admiration for Gould, the performance sounds like cr@p…And would a 12 year old W F Bach been expected to play at that tempo.
But a lighter action compared to a modern piano is exactly what Czerny had...
Everybody is so used to hearing Bach's 2-part inventions played slowly and reverently by averagely gifted present-day12-year olds that they find it impossible to accept Gould's (and Czerny's) conception of them as Etudes for training highly talented young klavierists. As for Gould's C# major prelude, that is exactly the sort of speed I would choose if I had the technique - fantastic!
When you mentioned that many performers discard the metronome marks in favour of the Italian tempo words, I almost laughed out loudly since those tempo words are often not respected either. After all, how often do we have a piece marked Allegro, Allegro moderato, or Allegretto, and it is played Presto/Prestissimo instead? No wonder performers have to slam the brakes in the final bars of several pieces to have time to properly resolve the final notes.
As for appreciating whole beat tempi after being used to fast performances. It took me just two pieces and I was sold.
Need to play the whole thing in WBMP. Much prettier. I san hear the details and enjoy the harmonies. Keep courage.
I haven't seen the facsimile of Chopin's copy of WTC 1, but I have read that the Czerny indications were only copied onto the first 7 preludes and fugues. Did Chopin make any annotations on the rest?
The Inventions were originally titled Preambulum in his father’s Notebooklet for W F Bach. There’s a revised Version of the Invention in Bach’s hand, in which there’s a superincriptions so there’s six 1/16 triplets along with four 1/16s.
You are a genius !!! We were all so wrong. Liszt etudes played like the speed of light. crazy
In my Padarewski edition of the Chopin Studies [sic] the metronome marks are unambiguous. e.g.
Opus 10:1 (Allegro) = 176 crotchets per minute, = 176 x 4 semiquavers per minute, = (176 x 4)/60 = 11.73 successive notes (key strikes) per second.
Opus 10:6 (Andante) = 69 dotted crotchets per minute, = (69 x 1.5) x 4 semiquavers per minute, = (103.5 x 4)/60 = 6.9 successive notes (key strikes) per second.
A Google Advanced Search using the search terms > meaning Italian "Allegro" < came up with the following, which hopefully will give an indication as to the way in which the so-dubbed 'Waterfall' Étude is to be approached [emphases in bold below are mine]:
" The Italian word allegro has multiple meanings, including "cheerful" or "lively" and a musical term that indicates a piece should be played quickly and in a lively manner:
Adjective
Means "happy," "cheerful," "joyous," or "full of happiness". For example, un carattere allegro means "a cheerful disposition".
Musical term
An instruction on a musical score to play a piece at a *relatively* fast pace and in a bright and merry manner. It's similar to the term vivace, which also means "lively". Allegro is generally taken as fast, but *not* as fast as vivace or presto.
The word allegro comes from the Vulgar Latin word alecrus, which means "lively". "
Observe that the number of successive semiquaver key strikes per second in 'Waterfall' is 1.7 times the number in Opus 10.6, which is generally considered one of Chopin's 'slow' Études.
Didn-t Glenn Gould play some Bach invention (the F-Major one I think) at half the usual tempo, which seemed weird way back - but having listened to this conference, I can now see the point he was trying to make. Maybe ! Thank you , Sir
Italian tempo marks are too vague even for us Italians!!! 😂😂
I Love Love Love your WTC Tempi. All the phrases are appreciated, the clavicord is singing to its natural limits of duration of tone and humble harmonics. I aim to record the WTC in whole beat.
Czerny's metronome markings for the WTC in single beat line up almost perfectly with his descriptions of the Italian terms they're matched with in Op. 500, lmao
Playing Chopin etude op 10 no 4 at todays speed is nauseating but slower we hear everything
I’ve always thought that for the most part, Alkan’s metronome markings were way too fast. By the way, Kirnberger in the 1770s said that fugues were being butchered because people had forgotten their old dance rhythms. I always scan Bach for dance rhythms to establish an appropriate tempo. This would apply to the WTC preludes as well, and following Kirnberger’s comment, one assumes that by Czerny’s time, it was worse. Also, Zimmermann stated that fugues should be played legato, and if one had the chance, one should play them at the organ to get a better sense of the legato. Fine, but Franck was accused of playing the organ with an approximate legato and an approximate duration of note values. Considering that Franck was a pupil of Zimmermann, this is rather telling.
I'm having to relearn many piano pieces because I used to play the slow parts too quickly and the fast parts too slowly! Now I'm playing slow parts slowly and fast parts fast. I had it completely backward... just like most professional pianists, it seems.
Very interesting video. Good job!
I have been going to a lot of organ concerts lately and it's sad to hear so many mistakes, that could easily be avoided, by playing at a reasonable tempo
Talking about famous 19th century pianists playing Bach, what do you think of the Metronome marks of A.P.F. Boëly? It seems to me the marks for his own études are quite fast in some cases (though I have yet to see if they are consistent with a single or double beat reading of the marks) and then on the other hand his few M.m. for several Bach organ pieces are quite slow or moderate.
6:43 Não entendo inglês bem o suficiente para entender o vídeo, mas tive a impressão de que eu devia tentar encontrar uma semelhança entre estre prelúdio de Bach e alguma música de Chopin. Então percebi que esse trecho lembra muito o final da Balada n1, mais especificamente aquele momento de teclas "emboladas".
People want to be awed by Chopin, Liszt and Beethoven etc. But they only want to be in awe in the way they have fantasized. If Liszt or Chopin played today, we may well be in awe if you are looking for what they are really offering, but it won't be because Liszt was louder, faster and more technically perfect than anyone we'd ever seen. For some people that would be too much of a disappointment since it strays too far from their wishes and expectations. So they resist the idea completely.
Do you humans ever follow the logic?! We can`t turn the time back. Pianists will go on play fast. Some few will follow the obvious truth. Just sad, that the others think, they play like Beethoven intended it andf laugh at the slow players. On the other hand, we don`t know what Mozart or Chopin would say, if they could hear a modern performance of the g-minor symphonie, or all the Chopin etudes played brillant from a modern virtuoso. They obviously would be speechless, and perhaps even in positive way. Many composers said, that others play their works better than themselves. With the tempo I am sure, but how they would like modern interpretations, we can`t know.
Pour le tempo de l'invention 1, on veut soit l'entendre et l'écouter (tel que dans l'interprétation de la jeune fille), soit s'en débarrasser (warp speed). Outre vos recherches, on peut aussi se demander à quelle tempo peut-on la transposer, cette invention? Voilà peut-être une indication de ce que serait un tempo plus andante /dansant.
Oh, aucun rapport avec cette vidéo sur les tempi, mais utile, si jamais vous vous découragez, cher Wim Winters, une pub pour... la volonté humaine (!?!) dans une discussion Huberman/ Goggins. Salut bien d'Ottawa (Canada). m.ruclips.net/video/nDLb8_wgX50/видео.html
BWV 848 in authentic tempo - just sick - sorry!
First 🙂
Cmoon.
@@classicgameplay10 it's a one off, don't worry.. I happened to be there at the right time.. I needed one FIRST in my life!