How can Labour avoid immigration becoming a dominant issue? | The New Statesman podcast
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 31 мар 2024
- Will we be forced into a strict immigration policy come the general election in order to stop it being the dominant issue?
Subscribe here: / @newstatesman
Anoosh Chakelian is joined by Freddie Hayward, political correspondent, and Ben Walker, senior data journalist and co-founder of Britain Elects answer a listener's question.
--
The New Statesman podcast is now on RUclips. Anoosh Chakelian and New Statesman colleagues including political editor Andrew Marr discuss the latest in UK politics news, helping you understand the forces shaping British politics today.
Watch all the latest episodes of the New Statesman podcast here: • The New Statesman Podcast
--
The New Statesman brings you unrivalled analysis of of the latest UK and international politics. On our RUclips channel you’ll find insight on the top news and global current affairs stories, as well as insightful interviews with politicians, advisers and leading political thinkers, to help you understand the political and economic forces shaping the world.
With regular contributions from our writers including Political Editor Andrew Marr and Anoosh Chakelian - host of the New Statesman podcast - we’ll help you understand the world of politics and global affairs from Westminster to Washington and beyond.
Subscribe on RUclips: / @newstatesman
Sign up to Morning Call, the daily UK politics newsletter from the New Statesman: morningcall.substack.com
Subscribe to the New Statesman from just £1 per week: www.newstatesman.com/podcasto...
I am perfectly happy with immigrant to support the health service, BUT NOT IF WE ARE POACHING THEM FROM DEVELOPING COUNTRIES THAT HAVE PAID FOR THEIR EDUCATION/TRAINING.
I first became aware of this in the Blair years, though it really goes back to Windrush times. It is just a disgraceful excuse to save investment in our own young people.
7:40 It sounds like the plan is to brain drain developing countries 'do you want more doctors?', I assume it's seen as cheaper than training people.
Statically the health service has a lower percentage of immigrants than the native population so the lie they save the NHS is exactly that!
But by welcoming skilled workers/professionals doesn’t that save the UK money and time?? I think that’s the whole point, right?
And it’s win-win because these expats from other countries get paid well and gain opportunities they can’t get in their homelands.
There’s plenty of funding and opportunities for Brits to get ahead but will they take them?? Do they want them at the salaries offered??
@@chocolatesugar4434 No because your own people are languishing on low paid jobs and tax credits. If all you want is to enrich the rich then sure.
@@chocolatesugar4434 no it saves big business money. The economic argument that immigration in general is a net benefit is flawed at best
Also seen it work the other way - when people are doing OK & happy, there’s a ‘live and let live’ attitude. When people in a country are struggling with food, shelter, health, basics - then it turns in on itself - scarcity, insecurity, fear, competition, conflict leads.
Need to have an adult conversation & think long term about immigration because if we lose many international students, NHS DRs, nurses, social care workers, dentists, builders, many professions & businesses, it will have major impact on growth, tax rev & public services. +We have an aging population & declining birth rate.
We're already back down to Pre-Covid levels of nursing applications on UCAS, and mature learner applications are down to their lowest point ever historically
The government refuses to listen to the NMC when they keep telling them that promises to have X more nurses don't matter if they aren't going to get the infrastructure in place to both attract sufficient applicants AND have the training places ready for them
As ever it's such a tricky one for Labour - as a party we're often quite liberal minded about this (I certainly am) but not wholly. I think the point about being specific about what immigration we need is pretty key, as is combining that with a genuinely compassionate system for managing that. Ultimately, if our education system were better, we would need less skilled foreign labour, and if minimum pay was better, we'd have more British people wanting to work in jobs like social care. It's a wildly complex issue that is deeply interconnected with the broader functioning of the economy.
When talking about immigration as a cheap workforce today you need to think about automation, we saw in America as soon as California upped the min wage fast food accelerated the move to automation (flippy the robot food maker etc). We see in farming in Japan has moved to automation and more complex machines, Japan has both low immigration and ageing farmers demographic.
Amazon & online shops are replacing high street shops, amazon has an aggressive move to automation in the workforce.
Driverless cars are in sight etc.
It's a new industrial revolution that will displace a large part of the workforce, it's going to make the 1970's look smooth.
It's the 10 year plan on immigration and automation id be interested in.
Automation isn't the issue
@@terrancehall9762 How is a 10 year plan from gov on immigration and automation not the issue?
@@liaminwales because it isn't. The real issue is income inequality
@@terrancehall9762 When AI/robots take your job you have no income, that's a massive inequality.
@@liaminwales no the income inequality is the business owner not getting taxed for the benefits of AI savings and job cuts
Tax wealth to pay for social and child care.
Or they could just stop disincentivising work with all the benefit handouts
@@schofield4836if more investment was put into accessing education and salaries could actually cover living costs - bearing in mind not even £100k can afford basic living according to the conservatives “financial expert” Mr kunt - thus would be the biggest incentive to get ppl back into work. Benefits payments are literally less than £15k a year in most cases, that’s not anywhere near incentive to not work.
They have ruled this out!
@@schofield4836 let’s stop acting like the problem isn’t lack of investment and austerity destroying local businesses which I’m afraid to tell you decreases availability of jobs
I'd tighten up on fraud when it comes to student visas, and the remove bona fide from the net migration total. Coming here and paying thousands of pounds for the privilege of studying at a world class institution doth not one an immigrant make.
I'd say that would make the figures more confusing. Because if someone is living here for a considerable length of time, they will require housing and public services. So it makes sense to count them as part of the population, regardless of their reason for moving here.
You should have tighten on ... colonization ... Why didn't you ??? Now it's too late ... deal with it, accept it and present your excuses to them ... they don't have to become your victims once more ...
@@TonThonFraisdEau I think that is a reasonable argument for former British colonies. I think we do have some obligation to open our borders more to commonwealth countries.
But that doesn’t mean we should allow people from all countries to abuse the student visa system.
Nothing world class in Britain 🇬🇧
Not until the next GE of 2029 when the broken tory party try to double their seats to 80.
Treating immigration by the small side of the binocular it seems ... Have not noticed that mass immigration come from .. guess what ... YOUR former colonies ... ??? Not the French or the Portuguese ones .. they go to France and Portugal ... YOU colonized like crazy ... you have corresponding mass immigration .... don't be surprised, don't complain ...and start saying sorry for having colonized them ... Also, can you start having non colonial type economic relationship with them ??? It will help everyone ...
So, you think Labour will get a second term?. You must live in Cloud Cuckoo Land. For that you need a lying, cheating leader like Blair. Starmer is not such a person. He is just weak and inept.
@@TonThonFraisdEauWhy do people like yourself keep using this argument to justify what is happening now? NO I didn't colonise anyone so I don't have to accept any of this as it had NOTHING to do with me. Besides if we go with that logic of we must feel guilty then that means those who come here and become British Citizens must also feel guilty for colonialism since of course, they are just as British as we are which means they should feel just as guilty, right?
@@phoenixreborn6065 YOUR country did ... there fore you BEAR responsibility, not personally, but as British ... You don't want that responsibility.. give up your British citizenship ....The colonized who become British, something YOUR country refused them during the colonization, are the victims of the colonization by YOUR country .. they are therefore NOT responsible since they are VICTIMS ... You can evade as much as you want, but Pakistanis go to the UK, NOT France, and Algerians got to France, NOT the UK, and Tadjiks got to where ??? Moscow ... no idea why ???
Majoring on net migration figures is playing to a Tory talking point. We need an honest discussion on the pros and cons e.g. do you want foreign students providing a massive economic benefit and subsidising the cost for UK nationals or immigration reducing the shortage of medics or do you prefer to wait longer to see a GP, or for an ambulance or have longer NHS waiting lists and pay more tax to retain (overworked) medics and more tax to fund education. We have a housing crisis but if we banned airbnb we'd have thousands more houses, similarly utilising houses not being occupied throughout the year - 809k of second homes in 2022.
Yes we need a big discussion and not just assume immigration is a benefit which is the default
@@keithparker1346 agreed, there's good and bad like most things. It's partly the polorisation in politics that causes the problems. Too much tribal and not enough discourse, explanation, compromise, etc
I never considered temporary students in the discussion of immigration but the numbers of students and dependents seem to suggest this isn't a temporary move but a "back door" way to get permanent residence. Is there any breakdown of the numbers?
I think if Labour could clear up the student part instead of running away from the issue like Gordon Brown did they might get some where
Personally, I am fairly relaxed about immigration. I live in London so people from other countries being all around you is normal. However, I think it is just reality that any country taking in a large number of immigrants year on year will result in some people in society, especially in areas that may start seeing more immigrants for the first time, reacting negatively. I struggle to see how you could ever truly deal with this problem. If housing were to be sorted out better then maybe that would lessen the negative reaction but the truth is some of the people most hostile to immigration don't have personal housing issues at all. Humans are tribal, some less than others, and the movement of other peoples into your society is probably always going to create counter reactions.
Censorship and the extension of 'hate crimes.' More of the same in other words.
Tories can talk about stopping their boats all they want, but the graphs that show the numbers tell the story and the public are not stupid, Tories are digging their own grave.
Immigration has become a dominant issue under the Tories because it is used as an 'attention diverter' from the real danger which is 'foreign investment' in our essential utilities and the fact we as a country have relatively few assets left as they are mostly foreign and elite owned. Putting the emphasis on poor would be immigrants, who would probably add to our GDP if allowed to work, whilst taking the attention off the very rich foreign corporations and governments who have bought up our asset base at knock down prices is just government sleight of hand. We no longer own our essential utilities, that is a catastrophe for the UK people. The Tories have not lost out, their politicians and ilk have invested in our stolen utilities too, they have been benefitted from this elite pillaging. This situation can only get worse as even if Labour get in, they have no intention of disrupting the profitable for the few gravy train.
Ok, then you anyway want to stop the boats ... loaded with people coming from YOUR former colonies .... have not noticed that ??? Start noticing it ...and recognize you have therefore NO "right" to reject them ...
👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
I think Labour allowing immigration levels to continue will make people move to the right, it's no surprise that Reform are picking up. The economic argument for immigration is flawed as well. If each immigrant is a net benefit why not have 10 million immigrants?
These corporations also love unlimited immigration, driving down working standards & pay.
Absolutely spot on.
Immigration is the big red herring of current (and past) politics; it's a big distractor for politicians and voters. Is it too high, what should it be, who should we let in, etc, etc. The actual question is how can we improve our standard of living? What do we have to do to improve infrastructure, health care, education, productivity, etc. That's where the discussion should be.
Why would they care about it being an issue. The previous labour governments record on immigration looks great compared to this lot.
The population of the UK should be at a level that the land can support, otherwise it is unsustainable.
Check the map of great Britain its empty there's so much room just no funding tories have bankrupt the uk
I believe most ppl from Hk come with British National Overseas visa am I wrong ? holding BNO visa = refugee ? I am confused
"Once it stops being about cost of living" - and the reaction to high immigration figures.
The concern is that the cost of living keeps on being high, which is surely a considerable possibility.
There are numerous factors that can very easily blow any recovery off course.
Of major concern should be environmental factors. Those drive immigration and are also drivers of food production etc.
It doesn't feel like these factors are as simple as they may have been 50 years back. It all feels frighteningly complex and very difficult to solve. We cannot will away environmental issues.
Well Labour could try DEALING with immigration instead of trying to gaslight the public and pretend it's not a massive issue.
It’s not a massive issue. The issue is the conservatives are the issue as they don’t look after their own citizens leaving them feeling ignored and disrespected. If everyone’s quality of life was better no one would care who moved in next door.
As opposed to the far right press gaslighting the public into immigration being an issue?
Hear hear!
Exactly, half the problem is that asylum seekers aren't being processed, the other half is we're importing skilled workers from other countries because we don't train enough of our own citizens. Both have clear investment solutions which should be agreeable to people with any view on immigration.
I'm worried that this is a big issue for you and not the country collapsing internally
The immigration figures are too high. Clear for everyone to see. But the current policies are not just wrong - they're inneffective and wasteful. Rwanda, hotels, military bases, barges, all of that costs £ millions and it does not give ANY value to UK taxpayers.
I know, right? Can we at least agree that we should be able to house asylum seekers somewhere which is cheaper than a hotel but more humane than a prison barge?
Nor its own citizens.
@3llusiiv331 I prefer to see people as assets rather than burdens, if they are in the country they have to be made to contribute positively to society and earn their keep until a lawful solution is found to their case
Obviously if a government treats people like burdens (whatever colour) you know they're not a responsible government
@@mrD66M I don’t think you can generalize. Some people are assets. Some people are burdens. And some people are deserving of help.
@andybrice2711 if you were part of a responsible government, that's the kind of thing you should never say regardless of it being "true" or not. People NEED to have some positive part to play in society, even those unemployed, homeless, who broke the law or are in prison - and it's up to the country's leadership to facilitate that
Maybe not avoid it - as if you can - but prepare a better story for it? Hmm?
Emigration of native Brits is the bigger problem - we will need workers!!!! So many immigrants actually open shops!!!!
Why would they bother? The Tories have been doing awfully at immigration, it's one of the biggest areas of failure against their own priorities. They can let the Tories fail, they don't need to do anythinf except watch.
Rejecting the premise of the question is a better approach. If you include students in net migration, who come into the country and spend tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of pounds in a few years and then leave, you're making a huge mistake. Same with dependents.
"Cutting immigration" is a means to an end, it's a very abstract idea. Cutting student numbers just to get the figure down is shooting yourself in the foot as much as Brexit was.
It's similarly stupid to focus on net migration to the exclusion of all else, because people care about immigration for different reasons and net migration doesn't capture all those reasons. Thousands of British doctors leaving the country is a travesty but actually looks positive in net migration figures.
One way to "fix" net migration is to increase the number of British people leaving and stop them returning (British people returning from abroad count as immigrants in this data!) and nobody would seriously propose that, but it would achieve that goal, which shows how pointless a goal it is.
Apparently there’s been a lot of abuse of student visas though. Whereby people take a cheap one-year course, barely attend, and then stay on for years afterwards.
In that case the pressure they put on public services and housing can outweigh their contribution to the economy and tax revenue.
More British people leave than arrive (and are therefore a higher number of emigrants NOT immigrants) - and a large part of that is the failure the UK has become. This includes open borders, filling vacancies with cheap labour instead of paying higher wages, and not expelling criminals and overstayers. Your argument is floored, although I agree about the highly skilled British doctors leaving being a travesty. That’s because they aren’t paid enough and gaps have been filled with cheaper African and Asian doctors
_Goodhart’s Law_ comes to mind: _“When a metric becomes a target, it ceases to be a good metric.”_
Though, that said, I do think it’s reasonable to set some upper limit, purely based on the number of available homes.
That's exactly what I have heard too@@andybrice2711
@@andybrice2711 very good comment. Therefore the type of immigrants matter. Those who build houses should be allowed to, as should those who are specialists in their field. Students at top universities yes but for the rubbish former college down the road, no. It’s a nuanced discussion
Immigration itself is the biggest challenge to Labour's deliverables. Nearly a million people every year is nearly a million homes and jobs to create, along with school places and hospital places, GP support. Since there is no Magic Money Tree, Labour can either deliver its program or allow immigration to continue but it can't do both. It's a stark choice Labour needs to make.
It’s not even about money. These things are just really difficult to provide.
@@jamesnaughton5657 true
By not talking about Immigration or anything at all tbh and hoping the public don't notice..
Yes labour will have to be firm on immigration. They can't be on the fence.
When it comes to colonization, the root cause of mass immigration, you were NOT on the fence ... remember ??? Start remember it ...
Labour are very firm on immigration already. Attlee started it, Blair expanded it beyond belief, Starmer will let it continue.
But they can. Because we know so long as there isn't some massive blunder they are getting in no matter what.
@@TonThonFraisdEau I doubt the OP was born then, so not sure how they could have been on the fence or off it.
Regardless, the biggest colonisers in history are all Asian or African. Go have a look at the longest lasting colonial empires in human history. Europeans were just very, very good at it for a very, very short time in history.
Bang on Blair destroyed Britain 🏴🇬🇧@@captaintorch983
The left needs to take concern of immigration LEVELS seriously rather than tar everyone with the racist brush. I also think we need the debate split between asylum seeking/ refugee immigration and "legal" immigration. The first i believe we have a legal and moral duty to help and process. However we have NO obligation to accept anyone else really and certainly not at current levels
Immigration and asylum seekers are 2 different categories, asylum seekers are 7% of the whole Immigration number.
Do you agree that legal migration is too high?
Having concerns about immigration doesn’t make you a racist. However, if you place it front and centre and consider it a No1 issue, then you probably are.
@@mikecook1537 genuine question: how could it be too high if there are still lots of jobs that need to be filled?
@@Trax777 because there are certain jobs that the British don't want to do & would rather have a life on benefits. Also if you take illegal immigration, they aren't allowed to work so aren't any benefit to the state.
Maybe do something about it instead of pretending it isn't a problem?
No. Same with Tories it no
Deal with it head on put it to bed move on. Even if the next government throws the doors wide open. It would still be doing more than the present shower that as increased immigration 😂😂😂
I do wonder if anyone actually cares what labour thinks. They are it seems from their own statements a very Conservative Party. Let’s call them Pepsi and Cola instead.
They are not the Tories so will likely get in. Myself I would prefer 650 truly local people, one in each constituency to win on a completely INDEPENDENT ticket.
If you want to stop the boats in the literal term you need to build some kind of border around the eastern half of the island and up to the north, that way you guarantee they dont enter our waters and become our problem, without that they just gonna keep coming
Stan immigration 🙌 stan anoosh 🙌
There’s been no tangible benefit to Britain for mass immigration. I’d like it if someone can name one thing that’s gotten better because of immigration.
One way to cut immigration is to just fully stop them from being allowed to bring family members. If the family members are qualified and doctors, social care workers, students etc they could come too.
That's a good way to destroy the NHS even further.
I think that's too much of a blunt instrument. I'd say if someone has highly valuable skills, then it makes sense to allow them to bring their family.
You can't cut immigration because you never cut on .. colonization .. They come from YOUR former colonies, not the French or Portuguese ones ... You can't complain about what YOU created ...
@@andybrice2711 But if they're bringing a number of dependants who aren't productive then that's a false economy.
@@oscarmike3482 Depends. If (for example) they're a doctor who's going to contribute to public services and pay taxes, then that may well be a net economic benefit, even if they have two children who need school places.
Is parroting far-right talking points the only option they have? How about standing up for the benefits of immigration and helping some of the most desperate people on the planet? Or dealing with the causes of mass migration like war, famine and climate change?
This has been the problem with Labor since Brexit .. they never, even before, recognized the cause of mass immigration to the UK which is what you describe but comes from the colonization by the UK ... Mass immigration comes from the UK former colonies, the guys from the French and Portuguese ones go to France and Portugal ...
The problem is unless its a very high skilled immigration say people earning over £100k there are no benefits at all and massive costs.
I think it’s counterproductive to just dismiss reasonable concerns as a _“far-right talking point”_ or _“dog-whistle”._ That’s how you get backlashes like Brexit and Trump.
I’m not remotely far-right. I’m a social liberal who actively supports cosmopolitan societies. But it’s just not practical to import the population of Liverpool every year. Our infrastructure can’t support that many people. So the costs outweigh the benefits.
@@andybrice2711 The problem being massive under investment by business in the UK just happens to match mass immigration. As does the massive increase in housing costs. Neither are good if your a native (note the ability for people to buy a home is important for productivity reasons).
If you are talking about refugees and asylum seekers I agree but if you're talking about "legal" immigrants I'd say no. Hardly any of our immigration is from the first category
Immigration is NOT a problem for Labour and Tories. They both want HIGH immigration. Tories because it keeps wages low ;Labour because they ideologically believe destroying the Uk and creating an international state. Either way England is lost😢
It needs to go down to zero, too many people in the country already
And that’s why people are going to reform U.K. instead who appear to have a plan.
Immigration anxiety is when economic times are bad not good and when there are Ramadan lights all over London during Easter !
No one is stopping you celebrating Easter. Maybe Muslims are just more devoted to their religion than you are 🤷🏽♀️ that’s why you notice them celebrating it. The government didn’t put candle lights everywhere, they did, because they love their religion and traditions. You could take a note out of their book instead of crying about it.
@@chocolatesugar4434 I think their first part was the important bit. Labour don't have a plan to reduce immigration levels and that pisses off some people
London is a Polis at this point.
They need to make a clear distinction between legitimate immigration through proper channel and the hoards of single young men looking to join the gangs which run our city streets.
Close the borders
Have mercy on indigenous populations
We're all immigrant descendants at some point
Knowing Labour the number will be around 10 million a year