The truth about oil dilution with fuel (& what you can do about it) | Auto Expert John Cadogan
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- Опубликовано: 22 ноя 2021
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Enjoyed this video. Hope you enjoy the test drive.
The leader of the opposition does lots of short trips in the diesel Santa Fe.
We simply do the intermediate 6mth/7,500km (whichever comes first) service.
Cheap and easy.
as i am retired and live only 500 metres from our supermarket and a kilometer from our small main street, short cold trips are the norm. once a fortnight my wife and i will go for a drive in the country and have a break from the house. i also change the oil more frequently than the service requires. i must be doing something right as my last vehicle lasted 20 years (over 200,000km) without a single engine hiccup.
The delivery was absolutely fine! No issues at all. Love it. Totally agree with your recommendation. I used to do that with my previous car as it was just too and from work driving.
John I recently bought myself a Olight Seeker 3 Pro and I’m quite pleased with it. Thanks for recommending the company!👍
Another interesting episode young John👍.
Mate i like seeing the Fatcave from a different angle mate & can't wait for more episodes about it & what you get up to in there meaning DIY stuff 🍻.
I wish I had seen this report two years ago (2019). Fuel levels increased, turbo seals broke, glow plug tips burnt and pieces of it dropped on top of the cylinder and scrapped them on their way down. There was a serious blow-by car lost power and yeah it was that bad.
I have learnt my lesson.
fantastic video - best explanation on oil dilution i have watching to date - cheers john
I agree with the advice here and everything said. The only thing I can think of that may be a faulty part if the 2nd test comes back the same or worse is your PCV. If the PCV is blocked or not opening it can stop crankcase evaporation that helps remove water and fuel from being recycled back into your intake manifold and then being burnt of in the combustion process.
If your PCV valve is blocked, you'd have blown seals and major oil leaks from the pressurized air in the crankcase.
@@craigquann A slight correction, the PCV valve is only open during vacume on the intake manifold. On forced induction cars the PCV remains closed under boost. Ventilation hoses from the top of crank case will always be breathing (the ones you would connect a catch can to) and one usually runs back to the intake before the throttle body or turbo.
A PCV valve is not required for normal engine functioning but recommended.
Happy test drive, JC 👍🏻
I learnt something new, an it was so easy to follow your instructions ,enjoyable thanks digger.
John, yours is the most complete video explaining oil dilution. Many GDI engines experience some measure of oil dilution, and what you’ve said is spot on regarding taking longer trips to cure it.
With GDI engines getting much better fuel efficiency, I'd have thought dilution wasn't as big a problem.
@@jamesplotkin4674 This has nothing to do with general fuel economy and has everything to do with engines running super rich when cold (and may also be related to non-ideal internal clearances when cold ---remember thermal expansion). It happens in all gasoline engines regardless of whether they are carbureted, port fuel injected, throttle body fuel injected, or gasoline direct injected, because they all have a mechanical or electronic choke. GDI engines may be worst in this regard but this was happening way before GDI came about. No heat engine is thermodynamically efficient when its super cold for several reasons. One is that there is thicker lubricant to pump around. But the other main reasons involve the ideas that more fuel is needed to ensure no stalling and also heat loss. Some gas turbine makers for example put insulation around the engine such that heat is not lost to the outside. In a gas turbine or a piston engine, we compress the working fluid which causes adiabatic heating and when the engine is cold, more of that heat energy is lost to the cold metal more which means more fuel must be burned to get the working fluid up to the firing temperature (which is the temperature before expansion). Heat is turned into mechanical energy during expansion. This is how all heat engines work whether a steam turbine, gas turbine, gasoline engine, diesel engine.
@@jamesplotkin4674 GDI engines make the problem worse given common scenarios. With the injector directly above the piston in a GDI engine, there is more chance of fuel getting into the oil when the engine is sub-ideal temperature. As John mentioned, the most common causes are multiple short-trip runs when nothing gets up into the ideal thermal window for the majority of the trip.
I’m here in Louisiana and I just discovered your channel and I think it is awesome. Have a brand new Corvette Z06. I smelled gas in the oil… it freaked me out at first but after watching your videos, this explains it. Thank you!
The dealer has checked everything on my z06. I take the car out always 2hrs i make sure shes always at 190 or above because the new 2023 z06 run cold and still have the the gas in oil issue. I Had the car since jan 1st and changed the oil 3x already.
@@c8miamicarclub So have you narrowed down the issue(s) with your Fuel Dilution problem? Have a 2014 GMC Terrain (with GDI 2.4L Ecotec) myself which is a model known to have Fuel Dilution issues (apparently 1 reason being an over aggressive High Pressure Fuel Pump)... I changed my Oil at 3000 miles/8 months and had excessive Fuel Dilution, throwing off basically everything else and requiring an Oil Change... For my next Change I've been doing longer runs, avoiding needless idling, and crossing my fingers it was just too little driving/stop and go, short trips.
Great video, confirmed what I thought. Get it really warm every now an then.
Thank you John another great master class.
Great advice. My oil level seems a bit higher and yes, only short trips so now I’ll do a long ride every so often, Thanks
Great info mate from U.S your
always bang on.
Good tips mate
Thank you very much John I'm already planning my country jaunt and re-test!
Egggggggggcellent!
Thanks for the great video John. I have got a 2017 Hyundai Elantra 1.6 CRDI (diesel). My daily routine is usually 24 km (to work and back) and I use 5w-30 Shell engine oil. Recently I got upset by knowing that there is fuel dilution in the engine. It indicates a much higher oil level than the "sign-F" on the dipstick. (even when the engine is cold). When there is heavy traffic the engine detonates very badly. (on low speed, when you make a full stop and then start to drive, it detonates). I am taking it to the service as soon as the service is open after the holiday, and will see what happens. Thanks!
I had the same problem with my 2019 Mazda 6 2.2d during lockdown but it got serviced now I do a 20 mile trip one way has now solved the problem.
Just a quick note John I don’t know about Lexus but when my Commodore had a injector poop itself aside from the light backfiring I also had the drivetrain warning and engine light come on several times. As a matter of course I changed the whole set of injectors which fixed the problem. Using a OBD2 scan tool should also help you with a better diagnosis as sometimes your car’s computer can store pending faults.
I've heard faults need to become a certain level of disfunction before the MIL comes on.
Hi John, love your work as always. On a similar but mostly different topic, how do you feel about changing the oil in, “sealed for life”, gearboxes and diff cases? Ultimately I guess it depends on the definition of, “life”, in this context. Would you take it mean the literal life of the car, or an arbitrary number of years or kilometers?
Life of the warranty is all the manufacturer cares about
Oil levels taken before and after the trip could also show a drop in oil levels on return due to the impurities burning out from the long run.
If the diluents are only 3% (180cc) you wont see them on the dipstick as an increase or notice that they have gone.
Dealerships get paperwork from the manufacturer for new vehicles telling them of faults and how to fix them. They sell you a shiny new vehicle not telling you that anything is wrong, only if you return the vehicle will they fix it under warranty
Another great informative video John and off script is totally cool dude. Thanks for the reminder to adapt our oil changes to most of our new driving habits with this whole COVID thing. Here in Canada, now with temperatures starting to dive below 0c (-10c as I type or +14 Fahrenheit) my short 5 minute drives to work are death to my cars oil.
I started doing the six month / 7,500km servicing on my Paj Sport after Berrima diesels explained the same to me regarding short trips and oil condition. A relatively small extra service cost but well worth it as it is a long term investment. I'm in Sydney so I used the trek to give a good freeway run also.
At that rate with those kind of result why not change the oil every 3 minths
I owned a Pajero 2.8 diesel that had a problem with the injection pump seal. It was leaking diesel into the sump so that over a few months the diesel loss caused a substantial rise in 'oil' level. Symptom was hard starting because the pump battled to build pressure. Only fix was a seal replacement.
Another well laid out perspective & it's nice to see there are no Dislikes - Well done mate 😜😜😜😜
El salam alaikom
Watching this video before buying the new honda accord ( 2.0 turbo )
Alot of people told me take care of this problem
Thank you for the very educating video 🔥🌹
Another entertaining and informative show,you have excelled again Mr Cadogan 😎
Hi John and all who commented.
Your video, very informative. Thank you.
I have an issue with my 2000 Toyota Landcruiser Prado 3L KZ-te Turbo Diesel engine.
I regularly service my Prado since owing it over past 8 years until it mysteriously speed away from me recently.
After the event, I have discovered my Prado have excessive diesel in the oil sump which I believe caused the ‘Run Away Diesel’.
After experiencing the out of control motor vehicle, my mechanic friend suggests injectors need replacing.
I took his advice and replaced 4x remanufactured Injectors with new genuine Denso Nozzles and all relevant washers.
While at it, I serviced the Electric Spill Control Valve and the Return Fuel Line as well, thoroughly drained the contaminated oil, then put in new oil filter and fresh oil of course.
After test driving over the past days all is working fine, but the oil sump is contains large amount diesel again.
No sign of diesel leakage from the injectors nor injector pump and all the fuel lines etc… that I could see.
At present it seems to run fine, does not overheat nor does not blow any black or white smoke at all, no loss of engine performance, the exhaust fume have a slight smell but no sign of leakage or sign of bad rings. I have not test for run away yet as I think I would happen again.
I got the injectors from a reputable Diesel Pump and Injectors Specialists who tested my old sets and said they are working ok which I am now concerned about my Prado.
I don’t know any other way how diesel could get into and mix with the engine oil.
Just wondering if you or fans on your youtube channel could shed light on my vehicle's issue.
Thanks in advance.
I will do cylinders compression test soon as as I get the test kit and keep you updated.
Thuan
Same exact with me, Diesel Captiva was extremely reliable then ever since my new 2-3ks a day trips it started facing serious issues. With DPF needing to be cleaned every month or some shi and Oil and diesel mixed. Found out by everyone that it's super dangerous to run Any diesel vehicle that way. Petrols are more suitable to run that way. Such a headache. Investing in a petrol 1L engine now
Love the shirt, man!
Brilliant video ...
Yes I do lot's of short trips and change oil at 8000kms without fail. Side note J.C, Wakefield park was a horrible little track because of the bumps and patchy bitumen, has it changed?
" it blows down there " Yessss.
Spot on advice there JC especially in regards to the follow up sample. For a part of my day job I work with analysing oil samples and if something looks out of wack a second sample is always the first course of action. Your also dead right in regards to the lab copy and paste comments, the lab our work uses process's a couple of thousand samples a day with just one or two people adding the comments.
Thanks!
Doesn't a DPF regen 'over fuel' an engine, will that dilute your oil? I am not aware when mine regens, so cannot tell if that has happened on a 'nice run'.
And here I was expecting a dingo-piss creek reference during your oLight plug. I agree, oLight markets some decent flashlights and I have also bought some of their Lithium Ion batteries that have proved to be quite reliable.
John, always good content.
Sort of parallel question - relates to motor-bikes rather than cars - but still ICE.
I have two BMW R1200s (one GS and the other GSA). I have a shagged back and neurosurgeon says it's not getting any better. The bikes have only been ridden may be 500kms since last serivce (including oil change) but that was 2.5 - 3 years ago - since garaged & have been ever hopeful to get back on them. It's not going to happen - so sale time. Given the time without running, should I drain and replace oil before firing them up again (just thinking of possible condensation contamination)
Breaks my heart to sell them, but sometimes reality finally hits. Regards
Curious that 3% fuel dilution was mentioned with it almost being time for the next service date on that vehicle. September 16th, my 2019 hybrid was taken in for its scheduled “6 month” service change. Previous changes (from the dealership) have added more oil than required, so I made sure to check the level when I picked it up… once again it was over full. After two days, and 32km of city driving, I picked up an extractor and pulled out enough to bring it down to where it should be. However… the oil I pulled out…. BLACK!!! I can’t explain black oil after a “change”, and being driven only 32km. So yes, I too sent a sample to be tested… fuel was 3.31%, Ti 20ppm, Si 24ppm. For comparison I sent fresh oil as a base sample for reference. And again, last week, the level of “oil” has risen. So… would the 2 hour drive fix black oil?
Hi John, now that we can't buy new cars, are you able to compare various cars and SUV's please. Such as a CX9 Azami 2020 or 2021 vs the 2021 Kia Sorento GT Line diesel? The Skoda Kodiaq RS etc
Thanks John. I guessed that it might be short journeys which had caused the slightly elevated level of oil dilution. I do like the prescribed treatment too - take a camera, enjoy that what we've been missing 👍
As soon as he balled up the note and threw it across the room, I hit like.
I'm seriously considering getting an o, normally I'd not stomach the sales pitch but you don't suffocate the story, straight shot, no excessive talk. It's a flash light, it's good, just get one.
Sir john...can you help me please..i live in Malaysia,here...a lot of triton owner claiming everytime they check their engine oil level,most of them had a low level engine oil...and when they take their car to service center for further inspection,the answer from the SC is - ITS NORMAL...just want to ask you..is it really normal?because other brand ute in my country didnt had this problem..thank you in advance sir
so with this in mind when covid startted and i have almost only short trips, i started letting the car warm up even on good weather days. so when i got in the car to make my short trip it was already up to temp. would this be enuf time to evap the fuel and water? talking fully warmed up then 15-20min of in town driving.
Now I find this an interesting topic..
I have my oil changed on half the service recommended is this a good thing to do ?.
great exp sir
G'day John!!!!
Factually accurate. Any perceived pho pars-absolutely forgiven.
I had the same report come back on my Mazda 6 with the GD 2.5L Skyactive engine. The oil had a tad under 11,000km on it and yet had 5.9% fuel in the oil. A caveat, we got the oil checked in late July which is also a contributing factor.
All of the other parameters of the oil analysis (TBN, contaminants, additives, etc) came back pretty well close to the specs of brand new oil. The only astericks was the fuel dilution.
Following the results we ran the car with a bi-directional full system diagnostic scanner and checked any mechanical defects such as fuel pump (pressure) and the injectors, ignition, compression, etc. The issue? There was none. The injectors were within 0.1%
The suspected issue. 11,000km compromised of 85% less than 10km trips - twice per day. Hence, the engine has been running at below ideal temperature for about 9,000km of the 11,000km on the oil.
I did the test because I knew I had not done a single freeway trip in the last two months on the oil in the depths of winter. Hence, I wanted to know what the worse-case scenario was on the oil.
One freeway trip per week sitting on 100kph for an hour would solve about 90% of dilution issues.
Hey John my Jeep Cherokee Trailhawk is over 8 months since last service but only 4000 km and oil quality specs say 90% good. Should I service?
I know my Hybrid Auris oil level is rising along the time since the change. Not a surprise, when I drive in the city, half of the time on electricity only, so the ICE is not even reaching its normal operating temperature. I did change the oil after 6 months (normal interval is 12 months / 15k km). But now due to Covid and work-from-home I'm not driving much, like 4k km per year so I don't bother with more frequent oil changes. I wonder if I need the car at all...
You've probably never heard this but aircraft in America operating in cold envrionments used to inject fuel into the oil on purpose to thin the oil out in very cold temperatures. Doesn't happen these days since oil technology improved
My 2022 camry first owner when I did my first oil change it stink of fuel. How often would you change it if it was your car and you wanna keep it as long as possible?
My 2015 supercharged Kawasaki 310 jet ski will get blow by & pump fuel into the oil & pressurize the bottom end if I get into it before the rings expand. It has a semi dry sump & catch can but can still suffer badly if WOT is applied before it gets warm & the rings expand.
I have a 5.0 Mercury cougar 2001 an I am trying to get it running but I drained all the oil out and it was almost all gas what do I do in what could be causing it
Many people fail to realise that "harsh operating conditions" includes higher rates of cold starts. Commuting itself is hell on earth for oils. They think it's just heavy loads or racing.
Is a lower viscosity better if doing short trips?
Good information and suggestions here. My WRX has had the oil and filter changed 4 times since March 2020. I send samples just prior to each o/f change and the results were 5% fuel/water contamination as the car has only done 1700Klm since March 2020. It is now due for its o/f change but last weekend after we were finally let free (Victorian) I drove it 270Klm (135Klm round trip) to Phillip Island. When I came back I sent off a sample and just yesterday the report was less than .5% contamination.
Yeah I sent the oil off to be tested in my mums Datsun and it came back 50% urine my brother had been pissing into the oil filler cap because it has a overheating problem he said would help it stay cool.
@@grimreaper6112 Well said mate
What is the power tool on the far right (your left?) Maybe it's just me but from what I can see the only thing I can think of is its a Nipple Polisher! :O ;) :)
In case your NOT kidding, it's a bandsaw for cutting metal.
Srangely enough, I have had excellent service from my cars since my 1969 HT through various Chryslers, Fords, Nissans, Toyotas,and Mitsubishis, including a powershit Ford. None of them have given trouble. I just dropped them off at the garage when the services were due. Other than that they were all good. I never remember being stranded anywhere. One of the Chryslers used to oil up plugs but it had over 300,000miles.
Friend of mine there 2009 Chevy Suburban is down with fuel in the oil and it won’t run. They had a mobile mechanic come out and he said it’s a bad piston ring. I’m wondering if he’s wrong and just trying to get money. Help please.
DPF AND CATALIC CONVERTERS when clogged send signals to the ECU to start regeneration ( literally pumping more fuel into the injectors and combustion chambers), in addition to driving at high revs unburnt fuel blow down into engine oil through piston seals.
Won't the computer throw a code from the wideband if an injector is consistently overfuelling?
That cross wipe... classic.
Bottom line is his car is not being driven long enough With enough frequency to allow the engine and the oil to remain hot enough for a sufficient period of time to facilitate evaporation of the the unburnt fuel from the sump oil.
Therefore fuel buildup in oil
Therefore 3% on the test…..
Nothing wrong with the car completely normal.
And that’s that……… DUUUUDE
Very good
Look forward to your test on the new Ranger… Not that I want one.. Just that I enjoy the way you don’t hold back… 🍻
Thanks
Well explained and clear message.thanks John. My car has had little use for best part of 18 months now,not good for the battery and electrics either.Long trips still not possible with border restrictions and much less income to do so. At least it is port injection. You need to spell check: Dulution!
I usually drive my car until exactly operating temperature, then im done with whatever I had to do. :D I thought tho it was enough with like...operating temperatue, go drive like 40-50min after that, and do some high rpms when its warm, isnt that true? You really need to drive like 2h etc?
Amazes me how much John knows and how well he could explain it to us. Well done John, an ocean of knowledge 👏
Hi John, where do you get your shirts from?
Thanks Dude
Hi John, do modern vehicles still use chokes? Or with fuel injection (more specifically direct injection, can the computer compensate?
With electronic controls, it's now known as fuel enrichment, determined by environmental conditions. Modern engines warm up quickly.
I dare say a choke is not much use without a carburettor, and modern cars have fuel injectors, not carburettors.
Can gasoline dilution of the oil be reduced by going up a grade weight? Say from 5w-30 to 10w30? Does the thicker oil seal the cylinder better?
no. the wash during cold start still pulls oil off the cylinder wall and runs past the gap in the rings regardless the viscosity of the oil
I saw a u tube video a few weeks ago where the guy ( I think he might have been a mechanic) bumped up his oil from 0w - 20w, to 5w - 30w. He said the thicker oil COMPLETELY solved his very bad oil dilution problem on his Honda Accord 1.5T. I am thinking about trying that on my 2020 Honda 1.5T with 30k miles BUT BUT BUT I am wondering if that might create another problem. Of course maybe any newly created problem MIGHT BE LESS of a problem. What do think?
12 month intervals for City slickers pretty good for bore scoring.
We have known the location of the North and South poles for ages, but the East Pole and West Pole are still elusive. Our intrepid adventurer has plenty of opportunity for making a literally land-breaking discovery.
Could there be oil dilution in tropical climates but with very short distances and low speed tempo? I am replacing the oil in my 2012 Volvo S60 T4 with 105,000 Km every 3 months or 5,000 Km albeit in the past I replaced it every 6 months as I didn’t drive the car over 5,000 Km
per year. The aspect of the oil is filthy but there seems no emulsification. There is no oil analysis in Costa Rica where I live to my best knowledge!
Ive been in the reliability space for many years and you never act on one oil sample result alone, and you wouldn’t normally act too drastically on one without supporting electronic data, visual data, or known experience either
I have this issue on a 2009 BMW 320d because i changed my commute from 40 mins each way to 5 mins. I found my oil level would rise to just above full after a few trips. Doing some google searching I found a Mercedes technical briefing that shows this is a problem for their deisel engines and results in fuel diltution of the oil., when you don't drive sufficient distances to heat up the who engine and exhaust system. It is sorted by long drives that heat the systems up enough to do DPF regen and that burns out the deisel in the exhaust system. Has been working on mine for over a year now. It is apparently worse on modern engines which are direct injection based on the info i've turned up on the topic.
When are we gonna see in car and outdoor videos again?
Is there a video coming up on that super secret track drive John? I have a feeling that it is a Hyundai Kona N 😋
Looks like you have a Cavs cap. Go Cavs!
Hello OED, I have a new word for you: Dulution - N. 1. watering something down to make it less shiny.
The exhaust going out the back tail pipe is not dealt with the catalytic converter.
The catalytic converter is nowhere near hot enough to deal with the rich exhaust on startup and warm up.
Its not until the engine is fully warmed up to operating temperature and the catalytic converter is up to temperature that the catalytic converter will do its job properly and deal with the emissions.
By the way , the choke actually enriches the mixture not leans it out
In regards to the choke, everyone makes mistakes, that's why JC corrected his error during editing (at 6.05 in this video).
@@bogged2theeyeballs695 for those who listened to this video instead of watching it, all they would have heard at 6:05 is a ding. Ofc regular viewers know that this ding means John has put something on the screen, and would have put two and two together in their own heads (I know my first thought when hearing the ding is "John must've corrected himself on-screen").
10/10. Grazie Mille!
Discovered this back in 2000 ish, rode a Honda sport tourer 3 k’s daily to and from work in Canberra, needless to say, the colour if the oil in the inspection window ended up like a weak skim latte lol
Short tripping is a terrible thing to do to your engine. If you can't make an excuse, and you really don't need one, to take a long trip to nowhere once in a while, then change your oil more frequently. Manufacturers recommendation is typically not frequent enough in any case
Owner's manuals are usually quite clear about that: x kms or y months, whichever comes first. If you do 'severe' driving, halve it. What is severe? Towing, heat, short distances.
If for example your interval is 30,000kms/1 year, whichever comes first. Then doing only 2,000kms a year, simply means you'll have to get an oil change every 2,000kms. And if those 2,000 are mostly short trips, well then you have to halve it: an oil change every 1,000kms.
However, a lot of drivers interpret it the opposite, more convenient way: oh look, a year has passed, but only 2k driven. I can still go another 28k no problem.
Hey John. My Mazda cx-5 diesel MY20 recently started showing the high engine oil level warning on the dash. The dipstick shows oil levels between full and 'X'. What's strange is, the problem seems to have occurred literally overnight cos on the 27th, I did check the oil level and it was at the full mark. A week later, I get the warning on the dash. In between , the shortest drives that I did were 6 trips to daycare which is 15 mins one way. The Mazda engine does reach operating temp in 15 mins, but I'm having a hard time accepting that just these drives could have increased oil levels. Could this be an injector issue instead?
I got mazda cx5 my14 same problem. You have to monitor when oil is cool (in the morning)😢
Dulution deletion demanded
I am doing city driving less than 5km each trip. Now my warning light throw up at only 4500 km travel since last service.
At the stoichiometric mixture (where all oxygen and fuel is consumed) the EGT is highest - we call it peak EGT. As the misture richens or leans - from Peak EGT, the EGT falls.
Your 1st sentence was great! You sounded educated and knowledgeable. Almost engineer class. And then your 2nd sentence, you just shot yourself in the foot, went down in flames. Just another YT me too commenter
@@philmenzies2477 ruclips.net/video/dvCJGnDdFxA/видео.html leaning an engine in flight. A cylinder is a cylinder, aircraft or lawnmower, petrol or diesel. All operate on the same principle. That's why I;m allowed to operate $200,000 turbocharged Lycoming IO-540's.
Thanks for the video. I have a 2018 Honda CRV with a 1.5L turbo with 140k on it. It has always had an oil dilution problem. It does not matter short trips or long, day trips or marathons, hot or cold. I change the oil often. I put in 3.6L to spec. It shows 1/2 way between Low and High on the dip. Within 800K or so it has risen 1/8" above full and stays there. Draw your own conclusions. Oh yes, no problems yet, touch wood.
How often u change the oil?
@@danielbarry5547Change it every 3000 miles if short trips mostly. If you are mixed short with some regular highway driving do every 4000 miles. Only highway 5000 miles. Now if you have this 1.5 turbo what will help the most is using 91 octane fuel minimum 93 is best but 91 is minimum. It almost completely eliminates the fuel dilution problem it becomes virtually equal to a non direct injection vehicle that runs slightly rich from factory.
That's why you need Italian tune up at least twice a month..