'The Dwarves tell no tale; but even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin's Bane.'
This mine is really cool, but a healthy dose of skepticism over ceiling stability is always warranted. For the curious: The NIOSH publication "Geologic Hazards and Roof Stability in Coal Mines" (DHHS (NIOSH) Publication No. 2003-152) has a section on sandstone which is worth reading. The paper notes that sandstone can have very high compressive strength - up to 20,000 psi (residential concrete is around 2500 psi) From that publication: "Thick blanket sandstones, which make excellent roof, may be the result of several different environments [...]"
Haha wow. I just found your videos! I grew up in Hastings so I recognized the limestone cave you jumped into. Its weird when the internet starts reaching into your actual life. haha I didn't know many people knew about that place.
You are 100% right about the arch ceiling A flattening ceiling allows tensile forces (opposite of compression) to create a weakness, breaking and possibly a large crack destroying the whole tunnel Whats funny- is that many people feel claustrophobic with a small arched ceiling, so many tunnels are deemed "unsafe" because they are designed to fail If people can get over that claustrophobia...... the small arch is idea...........great video man thanks
I live in Sydney, which is a city that is built on top of one of the world's largest sandstone basic that extends for about 1,500km (930 miles) along the east coast of Australia, and is several kilometres thick. It is very different to the sandstone you seem to have there. There is no way you could chip away Sydney sandstone with a shovel as easily as you do there. Ours seems much, much harder.
I have never learned about sandstone so much than watching your channel recently which I found, it is highly entertaining and informative, I'm wondering has anyone ever done a compression test near the roofs of your sandstone caves to see what the PSI pressure is? And have you found any large deposits of clay? If you have maybe let local potters know they may be interested in it.
We have some narrow strips of clay, but not really enough to make anything. I've taken some home intending to play with it, but I always forget and let it dry out.
"Gluten free?" I think you forgot '100% organic.' Thumbnail explanation between limestone and sandstone: Sandstone is as its name implies - compressed sand. Limestone was once corals and contains LOTS of calcium where sandstone has silica.
I know you probably know what you're talking about, but for those of us who don't, when claims about safety like this are made, it's much better to use statistics. For example, how many such tunnels are there, and if none of them have ever collapsed, is there a good source that can be cited which keeps track of these tunnels and confirms that they haven't collapsed? We are on RUclips watching this and we don't know those facts. Your video is really interesting though, thank you so much, it's fascinating.
Good job explaining the structural integrity of sandstone. How's the speak easy coming along? Also , looking forward to more abandoned railroad track exploration. Happy Fourth of July and have a great summer!!
Still working on the speakeasy, and the playland, and a million other projects :-) Railroad cruising has slowed down since the weeds are bigger and more obnoxious now. Hopefully I'll have more videos on all of that over the summer!
one of the tunnels I mentioned, a Railway tunnel obviously that didn't need supports or any lining because of hard solid rock ceiling when dug was part of the Newnes Oil and Shale Works Railway line. I'm from AU by the way. also it's strong enough that Hiding holes are being dug on the sides of the tunnel which is also strong so that the workers when they do maintenance can hide in them to keep clear when the train chuffs through. The link is here, but this tunnel is one of Australia's railway tunnel that didn't needed supports of any sort of tunnel lining. ruclips.net/video/f6493VPm8kw/видео.html P.s. when I meant a miniature railway or a ride-on railway in sandstone tunnel. I meant a garden railway as in 5" (inch) gauge, or 7.25" gauge railway, if you know what I meant. Or a Model Railway including G Scale or Gauge 1 as a model railway but also for an underground railway.
Eventually we'll have a small model railway in the bar area, I have a plastic battery powered set with lots of spare track. I figure plastic will last longer with humid air.
I like how one guy digging a hole in the ground likely creates a more stable structure than 100's of engineers designing a skyscraper by a significant margin of time Yeah its a really different use case, but I find the juxtaposition entertaining
So you're saying this won't work with mud? Don't shoot! lol. Quit pinching off pearls people. Nice to know how safe it actually is down there. Neat stuff man, bet its cool as a cucumber too.
Couple of questions... could you fill in the crack with concrete? Does it move? And could you get the sand out of the air by spraying water? Maybe a mist? Since you can't open cancer-caves to tourists! And yeah totally jealous you have this place to play in!
We might be able to fill the cracks with something, it doesn't really move on human time scales (maybe after a few hundred years it would get bigger). Some water mist might help, but the sand seems to settle out pretty quickly once we're not running tools. There's already high humidity down there, and we've had a couple folks like geologists say it helps settle out the dust.
You should make a little river inside of the tunnels where it gets long and straight, the flowing water will catch the sandstone dust in the air and improve air quality. You can put a grate or something at the bottom to catch the fine particles and pump the water back up to the top so little is lost. You could even try to make a little pond in certain areas, get some plants growing, get some fish. Not sure how fast this sandstone would erode though, if it got too bad you could bring in chunks of sandstone cut from somewhere else to shore up the walls and keep a uniform look.
@@saveitforparts Use that to your advantage, the sandstone is eroded by the water and picked up by a filter making a deeper and deeper stream. You really only need a thin layer on cement or something to prevent erosion, some kind of river rock would look neat.
I wonder how it would sound to play an instrument in sandland It might get both the small-room effect and echoes from other chambers, could be pretty cool
Yeah, I noticed it too but remained hopeful it might be a little different irl. Still not a bad thing for sound recording, and it would make creating an anechoic chamber easier.
I have a Casio keyboard in my junk pile earmarked as "bar piano", we just have to carve a niche for it and hope it lasts a while before the sand and humidity get it. I'm not very musical but I know just the right person to play it too!
@@saveitforparts they do say gold rides an iron horse, possibly gold in the mix.i feel your pain, I've been panning a few years and lost the only bit I found today trying to clean up in the river and not a bucket 😕
Is this someday going to be a below surface community ? Complete with shops and dwellings also industry ? What’s the largest span unsupported area ? Can you have a 20’ x 20’ space ? I would think the temp is constantly the same year around !
Temp is pretty constant, it's nice in the summer AND in the winter! We've talked about carving out living space but nobody's gotten around to it yet. It's not really planned to be a community, just a place to visit and explore. The largest open space right now is about 6-7' wide by "infinitely long" (The donut room that makes a full loop). We probably could do 20x20 open space if we made a domed ceiling. There were plans to make a big theater room for movies and stuff, but they got pushed off as we dig other things first.
Why not use concrete saw and woodshop vaccum to tunnel? And install geophone sensors to detect unstable rock. And definitely seal the exposed rock from moisture.
Most concrete saws need water cooling, and we don't have reliable water or a way to remove / filter it. We haven't had any issues with unstable rock, there are a few crevices but they're so small that they don't affect much.
It depends where you are and what the county laws are. This particular county doesn't have any laws against digging on your own property. The owner researched it and we talked to some government officials to confirm. They do make us put up silt fencing to keep rain from washing the sand pile away.
I've seen a couple underground videos where people complain about small amounts of dirty falling on their face while they sleep. Would that happen in here if the roof was not covered?
Why doesn’t anyone use an electric chainsaw with a concrete cutting chain? Or a circular saw with a diamond blade? Just make full length cuts, as deep as possible and then snap it off. The depths are all the same, and straight, and the hauling of material is more manageable.
I haven't seen a concrete blade for these consumer-level chainsaws, if I find a cheap industrial one I'll get it! Usually concrete / stone saws are designed for some kind of water cooling (as Cody's Lab showed), which isn't super feasible for my project.
We've checked and the worst thing is the silica dust. There's nothing to create bad air other than us breathing, and with several entrances the air naturally exchanges itself.
It took the owner a while to find the right land, it had to be in a county that allowed digging and a place that had exposed Sandstone. I went on a few road trips with him trying to find property for sale, we even found one with a Cold War fallout shelter but that place was too expensive! The land he ended up buying isn't really useful for anything else. It's basically a ravine with no flat ground. Perfect for tunneling but you couldn't build a house there very easily!
@@saveitforparts Well, I am in the state of Minnesota, and I was thinking of getting land up north in the north woods. However, I am not sure if sandstone would be there. You said before that sandstone can be found in the upper Midwest, correct? Also, how do you find the information in regards to the tunneling laws in your county?
Just for this I would reinforce all of the sleeping areas. The tunnels will be fine but generally putting up some scaffolding above a bed is a good idea, this also lets you put some pretty wood siding up on the walls.
It really depends on your geology and equipment. As far as vertical depth, we have about 100ft of Jordan Sandstone to work with. Other sandstone formations might have more or less than that before they hit a harder rock like limestone, or a water table. They might also be harder or softer. St. Peter sandstone is similar, but maybe a little harder than Jordan. As far as digging progress, our latest adit is about 120ft long and took an average of two guys a year of weekends to dig. I think on average the progress was about 3-5ft per digging day (maybe 8hrs with breaks?). That includes chiseling the sand with electric demolition hammers, shoveling into wagons, moving and dumping the wagons, etc. Things slow down the deeper you get, since you have to haul everything farther. Sorry if that's not a very scientific answer! Again it depends on a lot of factors!
@@saveitforparts Great explanation, thanks very much for the content I'm watching from Saudi Arabia which has many areas composed of sandstone, I'm thinking to dig some tunnels for fun, lets see how that goes
Ha, are you by chance related to the DuPont dynamite company? :-D Blasting would need extra licenses and would be really expensive. The sandstone is so soft that you don't really need anything more than a chipping hammer like we use. The slowest part is just moving the excavated sand out, which would take the same amount of time no matter how we break it loose.
Your all good until the 30people on their way to the bar come through the roof🤣 -Its solid rock..chf chf chf goes the shovel. thats not rock thats still sand 😬 rock goes ding ding ding
Nope, the example caves I showed are all in rural MN or smaller towns down the river. St Paul is mostly St. Peter sandstone, we're over in the Jordan sandstone region.
Jordan sandstone holds up unsupported as long as you arch the ceiling, same as St. Peter sandstone. There are plenty of historic caves and mines in the same geology that don't have any supports. Some are even open for tours.
'The Dwarves tell no tale; but even as mithril was the foundation of their wealth, so also it was their destruction: they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin's Bane.'
"Drums. Drums in the deep."
This man is actually playing Minecraft in real life
True
Or, maybe, with that donut room, Dwarf Fortress :P
Your content has always been interesting but this video in particular flows really well. Best execution so far. Keep crushing.
Thanks, glad you liked it!
This mine is really cool, but a healthy dose of skepticism over ceiling stability is always warranted. For the curious:
The NIOSH publication "Geologic Hazards and Roof Stability in Coal Mines" (DHHS (NIOSH) Publication No. 2003-152) has a section on sandstone which is worth reading.
The paper notes that sandstone can have very high compressive strength - up to 20,000 psi (residential concrete is around 2500 psi)
From that publication:
"Thick blanket sandstones, which make excellent roof, may be the result of several different environments [...]"
Haha wow. I just found your videos! I grew up in Hastings so I recognized the limestone cave you jumped into. Its weird when the internet starts reaching into your actual life. haha I didn't know many people knew about that place.
I just found it randomly while walking by the river. I've heard there are some slightly bigger caves nearby but haven't seen them all yet.
You are 100% right about the arch ceiling
A flattening ceiling allows tensile forces (opposite of compression) to create a weakness, breaking and possibly a large crack destroying the whole tunnel
Whats funny- is that many people feel claustrophobic with a small arched ceiling, so many tunnels are deemed "unsafe" because they are designed to fail
If people can get over that claustrophobia...... the small arch is idea...........great video man thanks
I live in Sydney, which is a city that is built on top of one of the world's largest sandstone basic that extends for about 1,500km (930 miles) along the east coast of Australia, and is several kilometres thick. It is very different to the sandstone you seem to have there. There is no way you could chip away Sydney sandstone with a shovel as easily as you do there. Ours seems much, much harder.
Why isn’t Keebler sponsoring this?
I have never learned about sandstone so much than watching your channel recently which I found, it is highly entertaining and informative, I'm wondering has anyone ever done a compression test near the roofs of your sandstone caves to see what the PSI pressure is? And have you found any large deposits of clay? If you have maybe let local potters know they may be interested in it.
We have some narrow strips of clay, but not really enough to make anything. I've taken some home intending to play with it, but I always forget and let it dry out.
I'd definitely still be nervous about cave-ins, but I gotta say that's cool as all hell digging tunnels through such visually cool material.
It's good go be conscious of hazards. But you can't life by the worries of danger.
"Gluten free?" I think you forgot '100% organic.' Thumbnail explanation between limestone and sandstone: Sandstone is as its name implies - compressed sand. Limestone was once corals and contains LOTS of calcium where sandstone has silica.
Silica is 100% inorganic
@@scottarmstrong5607 You missed it... ALL rock is inorganic but don't tell the woke crowd.
I know you probably know what you're talking about, but for those of us who don't, when claims about safety like this are made, it's much better to use statistics. For example, how many such tunnels are there, and if none of them have ever collapsed, is there a good source that can be cited which keeps track of these tunnels and confirms that they haven't collapsed? We are on RUclips watching this and we don't know those facts. Your video is really interesting though, thank you so much, it's fascinating.
RIP this guy.. he had a good run. 1990-2024. Nobody saw that tunnel collapse coming.
Good job explaining the structural integrity of sandstone. How's the speak easy coming along? Also , looking forward to more abandoned railroad track exploration. Happy Fourth of July and have a great summer!!
Still working on the speakeasy, and the playland, and a million other projects :-) Railroad cruising has slowed down since the weeds are bigger and more obnoxious now. Hopefully I'll have more videos on all of that over the summer!
one of the tunnels I mentioned, a Railway tunnel obviously that didn't need supports or any lining because of hard solid rock ceiling when dug was part of the Newnes Oil and Shale Works Railway line. I'm from AU by the way.
also it's strong enough that Hiding holes are being dug on the sides of the tunnel which is also strong so that the workers when they do maintenance can hide in them to keep clear when the train chuffs through.
The link is here, but this tunnel is one of Australia's railway tunnel that didn't needed supports of any sort of tunnel lining.
ruclips.net/video/f6493VPm8kw/видео.html
P.s. when I meant a miniature railway or a ride-on railway in sandstone tunnel. I meant a garden railway as in 5" (inch) gauge, or 7.25" gauge railway, if you know what I meant.
Or a Model Railway including G Scale or Gauge 1 as a model railway but also for an underground railway.
Eventually we'll have a small model railway in the bar area, I have a plastic battery powered set with lots of spare track. I figure plastic will last longer with humid air.
Thank you for this informative video sir 👌 I now know about stone from the crustaceous period and I love it
I like how one guy digging a hole in the ground likely creates a more stable structure than 100's of engineers designing a skyscraper by a significant margin of time
Yeah its a really different use case, but I find the juxtaposition entertaining
Good old Potosi beer! You must be close to southwest Wisconsin.
Reasonably close, and I visit that area sometimes. It's a fun brewery, even if they didn't let us poke around in their cave :-P
I love the tree at the end.
Maybe it's worth checking if there is gold in the dark sand - usually black sand contains gold
So you're saying this won't work with mud? Don't shoot! lol. Quit pinching off pearls people. Nice to know how safe it actually is down there. Neat stuff man, bet its cool as a cucumber too.
Couple of questions... could you fill in the crack with concrete? Does it move? And could you get the sand out of the air by spraying water? Maybe a mist? Since you can't open cancer-caves to tourists! And yeah totally jealous you have this place to play in!
We might be able to fill the cracks with something, it doesn't really move on human time scales (maybe after a few hundred years it would get bigger). Some water mist might help, but the sand seems to settle out pretty quickly once we're not running tools. There's already high humidity down there, and we've had a couple folks like geologists say it helps settle out the dust.
You should make a little river inside of the tunnels where it gets long and straight, the flowing water will catch the sandstone dust in the air and improve air quality. You can put a grate or something at the bottom to catch the fine particles and pump the water back up to the top so little is lost. You could even try to make a little pond in certain areas, get some plants growing, get some fish. Not sure how fast this sandstone would erode though, if it got too bad you could bring in chunks of sandstone cut from somewhere else to shore up the walls and keep a uniform look.
Sandstone erodes pretty quickly in moving water, we'd have to line a stream with cement or something. Interesting idea though!
@@saveitforparts Use that to your advantage, the sandstone is eroded by the water and picked up by a filter making a deeper and deeper stream. You really only need a thin layer on cement or something to prevent erosion, some kind of river rock would look neat.
And it will produce negative ions to aid in demon manifestation. I think I'd skip that.
I wonder how it would sound to play an instrument in sandland
It might get both the small-room effect and echoes from other chambers, could be pretty cool
The sandstone tends to deaden and absorb sound. You can hear it in his recording of his voice, zero echo.
Yeah, I noticed it too but remained hopeful it might be a little different irl. Still not a bad thing for sound recording, and it would make creating an anechoic chamber easier.
I have a Casio keyboard in my junk pile earmarked as "bar piano", we just have to carve a niche for it and hope it lasts a while before the sand and humidity get it. I'm not very musical but I know just the right person to play it too!
I don't like many videos before watching 💛
Ever thought about panning some material you remove? Darker red/black would be a interesting place to start
@@ScotlandsGold It would sure be interesting to see him make some iron from sand.
We get lumps of hard iron. I don't know if there's any precious metal mixed in, and I've never been much good at panning even when I lived in AK.
@@saveitforparts they do say gold rides an iron horse, possibly gold in the mix.i feel your pain, I've been panning a few years and lost the only bit I found today trying to clean up in the river and not a bucket 😕
Awesome mate
I love this!
This makes me wonder… Does one need a faraday cage for their electronics if they are located underground?🤔
Just went here for the first time today
Oh man, this cave isn't free range, or certified organic.
Is this someday going to be a below surface community ? Complete with shops and dwellings also industry ? What’s the largest span unsupported area ? Can you have a 20’ x 20’ space ? I would think the temp is constantly the same year around !
Temp is pretty constant, it's nice in the summer AND in the winter! We've talked about carving out living space but nobody's gotten around to it yet. It's not really planned to be a community, just a place to visit and explore. The largest open space right now is about 6-7' wide by "infinitely long" (The donut room that makes a full loop). We probably could do 20x20 open space if we made a domed ceiling. There were plans to make a big theater room for movies and stuff, but they got pushed off as we dig other things first.
Cool Underground
Why not use concrete saw and woodshop vaccum to tunnel? And install geophone sensors to detect unstable rock. And definitely seal the exposed rock from moisture.
Most concrete saws need water cooling, and we don't have reliable water or a way to remove / filter it. We haven't had any issues with unstable rock, there are a few crevices but they're so small that they don't affect much.
so i started my own tunnel in the sandstone under my property. im in county, is there any way the county can stop me from digging?
It depends where you are and what the county laws are. This particular county doesn't have any laws against digging on your own property. The owner researched it and we talked to some government officials to confirm. They do make us put up silt fencing to keep rain from washing the sand pile away.
Can we see a map of sandland?
There's a map of the property on Tunnelcity.com, I'm not sure if the owner wants to publicize a map of the tunnels but I can ask :-)
Air-conditioned among us suit and Minecraft in real life cross over video when?
I've seen a couple underground videos where people complain about small amounts of dirty falling on their face while they sleep. Would that happen in here if the roof was not covered?
I always wake up sandy if I sleep underground, but I toss around a lot so hard to tell where it comes from.
Why doesn’t anyone use an electric chainsaw with a concrete cutting chain? Or a circular saw with a diamond blade? Just make full length cuts, as deep as possible and then snap it off. The depths are all the same, and straight, and the hauling of material is more manageable.
I haven't seen a concrete blade for these consumer-level chainsaws, if I find a cheap industrial one I'll get it! Usually concrete / stone saws are designed for some kind of water cooling (as Cody's Lab showed), which isn't super feasible for my project.
Ever any worry of hazardous gasses accumulating underground down there?
We've checked and the worst thing is the silica dust. There's nothing to create bad air other than us breathing, and with several entrances the air naturally exchanges itself.
I just have one question. Where do you even find the land for sale where you can make these sandstone or limestone tunnels?
It took the owner a while to find the right land, it had to be in a county that allowed digging and a place that had exposed Sandstone. I went on a few road trips with him trying to find property for sale, we even found one with a Cold War fallout shelter but that place was too expensive! The land he ended up buying isn't really useful for anything else. It's basically a ravine with no flat ground. Perfect for tunneling but you couldn't build a house there very easily!
@@saveitforparts Well, I am in the state of Minnesota, and I was thinking of getting land up north in the north woods. However, I am not sure if sandstone would be there. You said before that sandstone can be found in the upper Midwest, correct? Also, how do you find the information in regards to the tunneling laws in your county?
Gabe where is this underground bar with the chandeliers?
The Sand Bar is at Sandland (tunnelcity.com/). It's not generally open to the public, just a hobby project by a few weirdos :-)
If you meant the one at 4:07, it's the Wabasha Street Caves (www.wabashacaves.com/)
What about earthquakes? How stable are the tunnels when it comes to them? Do you have nay information about that?
Earthquakes aren't really a thing in Minnesota. We used to have a few every year in Alaska, but around here I don't think I've ever felt one.
How’s the radon levels down there?
One of the other guys brought a meter, he said we're fine working a few times a week but we probably shouldn't raise kids in there 😂
Let's hope you never have an earthquake.
This region doesn't really get earthquakes, maybe a little 4.0 every 10 years or so. When I lived in AK we'd have them a few times a year.
Just for this I would reinforce all of the sleeping areas. The tunnels will be fine but generally putting up some scaffolding above a bed is a good idea, this also lets you put some pretty wood siding up on the walls.
Puts some redstone secret doors in there ahahah
where are you guys located?
How deep you can dig in sandstones tunnels?
And how long it takes to dig a 100 meter tunnel if lets say 2 experienced guys are working on it
It really depends on your geology and equipment. As far as vertical depth, we have about 100ft of Jordan Sandstone to work with. Other sandstone formations might have more or less than that before they hit a harder rock like limestone, or a water table. They might also be harder or softer. St. Peter sandstone is similar, but maybe a little harder than Jordan.
As far as digging progress, our latest adit is about 120ft long and took an average of two guys a year of weekends to dig. I think on average the progress was about 3-5ft per digging day (maybe 8hrs with breaks?). That includes chiseling the sand with electric demolition hammers, shoveling into wagons, moving and dumping the wagons, etc. Things slow down the deeper you get, since you have to haul everything farther.
Sorry if that's not a very scientific answer! Again it depends on a lot of factors!
@@saveitforparts
Great explanation, thanks very much for the content
I'm watching from Saudi Arabia which has many areas composed of sandstone, I'm thinking to dig some tunnels for fun, lets see how that goes
"RELATIVELY"??? "HOPEFULLY"??? 😱
Is it legal to dig underground?
In this area it is!
@@saveitforparts I wanna dig all of the USA.
coolest mine
How does sandstone handle blasting
Ha, are you by chance related to the DuPont dynamite company? :-D Blasting would need extra licenses and would be really expensive. The sandstone is so soft that you don't really need anything more than a chipping hammer like we use. The slowest part is just moving the excavated sand out, which would take the same amount of time no matter how we break it loose.
Getting lost?? There are plenty of landmarks.pretty easy to build a map in your head just from watching the tunnels
Strip mining irl
Strip mining is on the surface in open pits, we're underground!
IS IT REALLY GLUTEN FREE? LOL
LMAO STAY SAFE BRO !!!
Your all good until the 30people on their way to the bar come through the roof🤣
-Its solid rock..chf chf chf goes the shovel. thats not rock thats still sand 😬 rock goes ding ding ding
Lilydale?
Nope, the example caves I showed are all in rural MN or smaller towns down the river. St Paul is mostly St. Peter sandstone, we're over in the Jordan sandstone region.
@@saveitforparts Thanks!
My question is WHY ???
Why not :-D
Sand laid down by the global flood of Noahs time. Fascinating stuff.
Lol, good one!
that's sand not sandstone
ruff
After watching, I reached the conclusion that you really need to find a girlfriend ASAP...
Not safe! You need some kind of support
Jordan sandstone holds up unsupported as long as you arch the ceiling, same as St. Peter sandstone. There are plenty of historic caves and mines in the same geology that don't have any supports. Some are even open for tours.